CAP 20 CAP 20 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[Empress]

S/o to Hex and the crew for coming up with the typing pros and cons. Let's take a look at what's currently on the table.

Water/Steel: Time to jump on the bandwagon here- this typing does pretty much everything we want it to do. Considering the top 2 CM users in OU (Mega Sableye and MG Clefable) are immune to Toxic, it stands as a pretty good guideline for what we want a CM user to have. The Steel-typing also allows this mon to resist T-Flame's Brave Bird and check (perhaps counter) all variants of Clefable, while the Water-typing gives us a fighting chance against Lando-T. The main problem here is a weakness to Fighting, as Mach Punch users can beat DD variants of this mon while Keldeo's Secret Sword laughs at our CM set. The remainder of its flaws can be patched up along the process.

Water/Poison: In all honesty, this appears to be a slightly inferior Water/Steel. While it does shed the Fighting weakness, we no longer resist T-Flame's Brave Bird (although we still threaten it offensively, it can pick us off more easily than it should). Perhaps the biggest flaw is one that Imanalt or nyttyn (I don't remember who it was) brought up on IRC: the Poison typing leaves us weak to Psyshock, which is a big no-no on a CM set.

Electric/Fairy: Fusion Bolt being put off the table places a huge dagger in this typing's viability because of the lack of strong physical Electric-type STAB attacks. While the paralysis immunity is great for the DD set, it doesn't make as much of a difference on the CM set, as opposed to a Toxic immunity, which benefits both sets. We also lose out on the ability to threaten defensive mons such as Lando-T, Clefable, and, to a lesser extent, Heatran.

Fairy/Ghost: Good news: perfect neutral coverage means we can take on most defensive mons with enough boosts. Bad news: we are not resistant to priority attacks outside of Mach Punch, there are no viable physical Ghost moves, and we have no status immunities. Yeah... outside of the perfect neutral coverage, I find that this typing does little for the concept.

Steel/Fairy: It's a buffed version of Electric/Fairy. The Toxic immunity helps both the CM and DD sets immensely, and the ability to get by Clefable allows us to laugh at even Unaware variants of it. However, we still lack a way to get past Heatran, which is one of the main disadvantages of Steel/Fairy over Water/Steel. Nonetheless, Fairy is so stacked on both the offensive and defensive sides of the spectrum that it offsets such a weakness. Think about it: we're not weak to Fighting, we resist Sucker Punch to go along with our resistance to Brave Bird, and we can get past Mega Sableye.

Water/Electric: No Toxic immunity, poor Electric physical STAB moves without Fusion Bolt. Inferior Water/Steel. Also Krilowatt

Poison/Dark: At first I was not a fan of this typing, but after going over it with Imanalt and nyttyn, Poison/Dark is surprisingly pro-concept. The Toxic immunity and the single weakness are crucial for our CM sets. Though I was worried that this typing makes our CM set lose to Lando-T (I shared this worry with Steel/Fairy and Electric/Fairy as well), Imanalt informed me that we don't necessarily need to beat Lando-T in order for this mon's CM set to work. However, we do have some neutral matchups with defensive mons such as Heatran. On #cap, we discussed that neutral matchups may pidgeonhole us into inflating our stats in order to get the upper hand. Though we hit Ferrothorn neutrally with Knock Off on the DD set, the threat of Iron Barbs is there if we can't hit it hard enough. Overall I'm not 100% sure about Poison/Dark but I think it could work.

TL;DR version: My preferences are Water/Steel, Steel/Fairy, and Poison/Dark (not necessarily in that order).

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Electric/Fairy: Fusion Bolt being put off the table places a huge dagger in this typing's viability because of the lack of strong physical Electric-type STAB attacks. While the paralysis immunity is great for the DD set, it doesn't make as much of a difference on the CM set, as opposed to a Toxic immunity, which benefits both sets. We also lose out on the ability to threaten defensive mons such as Lando-T, Clefable, and, to a lesser extent, Heatran.

I don't really disagree with you here, but Volt Tackle can be considered a Strong Physical Electric STAB move, it's not preferable to have a recoil move on a Dragon Dance user, but this isn't exactly true

Edit: I would like to point out that it is impossible to create a type that has each of the following
1: Resists Flying
2: Is not weak to Ground
3: Has a spammable stab move

Imo, resisting Flying is almost a necessity, especially if we want to use fairy as our special attacking type, so we are really going to have to consider this before we just jump out and say "Hurr this typing is beat by Lando-T it sucks"

 

[Avnomke]

Flying/Ground has nearly perfect coverage, outside of flying resists with ground immunities, so it's difficult to both be able to take Lando-T Earthquakes and Talonflame Brave Birds with typing alone.

The only things that 1) resists Flying, 2) is immune to Ground, 3) doesn't take massive amounts from common priority and 4) has a fairly spammable STAB are Electric/Flying and Steel/Flying. Flying is a great offensive typing in OU (see: birdspam), although it's questionable defensively. Out of the two, I would prefer Electric/Flying for the better coverage (with no relevant pokemon that resist both, I think?)

Also, we don't bring past CAPs into consideration, and even if we did, we're not giving CAP20 Belly Drum (or at least not basing it around Belly Drum) so it'll play differently.

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

Looking at the discussion thus far, much has focused on the need to balance CAP 20's offensive and defensive capabilities with its typing. Being weak to common priority (particularly Gale Wings Brave Bird) is not a feasible option, but the major dilemma then arises that every type that resists Flying is weak to Ground, another common attacking type used by a particularly dangerous revenge killer, Landorus-T.

As The Pizza Man mentioned, it is impossible to make a typing that is both resistant to Flying and not weak to Ground without having subpar offensive STAB. As such, it seems that there is another build triangle in play for this CAP's typing; a good typing needs to pick two of the three following criteria:

1. Resistant to Flying/able to OHKO Talonflame if neutral to Flying
2. Not weak to Ground
3. Good offensive synergy from STAB moves.

As such, I'm going to suggest another typing that has yet to be brought up in this thread that fulfills points 2 and 3: Ground/Fairy.


2x: Grass, Ice, Steel, Water
0.5x: Bug, Dark, Fighting, Rock
0x: Dragon, Electric


As for how OU stacks up against this typing:

Weak to STABs: Altaria(-Mega), Bisharp, Breloom, Charizard-Mega-X, Conkeldurr, Diancie(-Mega), Dragonite, Excadrill, Gallade(-Mega), Garchomp(-Mega), Gyarados-Mega, Heatran, Jirachi, Keldeo, Kyurem-B, Latias(-Mega), Latios(-Mega), Lopunny-Mega, Magnezone, Mandibuzz, Manectric(-Mega), Metagross(-Mega), Raikou, Sableye(-Mega), Tyranitar(-Mega)

Neutral to STABs: Azumarill, Celebi, Chansey, Clefable, Ferrothorn, Gardevoir(-Mega), Gliscor, Gothitelle, Gyarados, Landorus, Landorus-T, Lopunny, Mamoswine, Manaphy, Mew, Rotom-W (Levitate), Scizor(-Mega), Slowbro(-Mega), Starmie, Sylveon, Thundurus, Venusaur(-Mega), Zapdos

Resistant to STABs: Charizard(-Mega-Y), Gengar (Levitate), Skarmory, Talonflame


Pros
-Ground and Fairy complement each other well when it comes to offensive coverage, as Ground is super-effective against all three types that resist Fairy. As such, only Fire/Flying, Steel/Flying, and Poison/Flying resist this STAB combo. It also destroys many common OU Pokemon, such as Heatran and Keldeo.
-The Ground-type and Fairy-type moves available are powerful on both ends of the spectrum. Ground has Earth Power and Earthquake for reliable STAB, while Fairy can use Moonblast and Play Rough. This sidesteps some of the shortcomings of other typings, such as the lack of useful physical Electric and Ghost STABs as well.
-Defensively, Ground/Fairy has useful resistances and immunities. Much like Electric/Fairy, it resists many of the most ubiquitous moves in OU, including Draco Meteor, U-Turn, Volt Switch, Knock Off, and Stealth Rock. It also has an immunity to Thunder Wave without being weak to Ground.

Cons
-The three dual typings that resist Ground/Fairy STAB encompasses a few problematic Pokemon: namely, Talonflame, Mega Charizard Y, and Skarmory. As such, a Ground/Fairy CAP would almost certainly need some form of super effective coverage to compensate for this failing, especially considering the lack of resistance to Brave Bird.
-Water and Steel weaknesses mean that Azumarill's Aqua Jet and Scizor's Bullet Punch would be priority moves that give the CAP trouble. As such, the CAP would need enough natural physical bulk to stomach either hit as well as CB Brave Bird from Talonflame. However, all three moves powered by a Choice Band have similar damage outputs against this typing, so anything bulky enough to survive one should be enough to survive the other two.
-The typing is neutral against two common CM users: Unaware Clefable and Mega Slowbro. As such, the CAP would need coverage options to be able to defeat both Pokemon 1v1.
-The typing has no other status resistances outside of paralysis induced by Thunder Wave, so a CAP with this typing would likely have to address this in the ability discussion.

While there is no perfect typing for this CAP, I believe that Ground/Fairy has enough useful offensive and defensive capabilities to be a viable option.

 

[Ununhexium]

Alright so here are the typings discussed so far

Water / Steel is a typing I'm a big fan of and one that I am certainly slating for reasons srk1214 listed, mainly a spammable STAB move in Scald for the Calm Mind set to use, a whole slew of resistances (especially to Brave Bird from Talonflame), the ability to not lose offensively to Landorus-T, and the ability to muscle past Clefable. Slated

Ghost / Fairy is one that I'm not entirely too sure about. While it does have very good neutral coverage, it lacks the real super effective coverage needed by this CAP and resistance to common priority moves like Brave Bird and Bullet Punch. I'd like to see more discussion on this one before I decide definitively whether or not I will slate it.

Electric / Fairy I would like to see more discussion on. While it does have resistances to a lot of good moves, it is lacking a Toxic immunity (which is really important for the Calm Mind set) and has no way to deal with Landorus-T or Clefable without specific coverage (and let's, be real here, Steel or Poison aren't the best offensive types and shouldn't really be used unless it receives a STAB boost). I am personally leaning towards a no on this one, but if someone can make a really good case for it, I will probably say no.

Water / Poison is very similar to Water / Steel in many ways, but with a few different resistances (mainly a trade for a resistance to Fighting for a resistance to Brave Bird). I will almost certainly slate this unless someone can make a case against it.

Electric / Water should see more discussion. While it brings a resistance to Brave Bird as well as a STAB Scald, the lack of Toxic immunity is rough for it. I'd probably say this is a lesser Water / Steel.

Poison / Dark is a good looking typing as it can beat Clefable (important for both sets), has a nifty one weakness, and an immunity to poison. While it's single-move coverage isn't amazing (Dark Pulse is okay but not as good as Scald), it's definitely good enough to get by. I'll slate this unless someone say no and gives a good reason.

Steel / Fairy has an amazing defensive typing, a Toxic immunity, a Psyshock resistance which is nice for Calm Mind wars, and good STAB types. Discuss this a bit more, but I'll probably slate this

I'm going to put a 24 hour notice on this so don't propose new typings after this post!!

EDIT: Elite Lord Sigma and Avonmke ninja'd me while I was writing this post. Feel free to discuss their proposals and those in this post.

 

[Deck Knight]

I really think Toxic Immunity is unnecessary, and prohibiting types because they do not have it is counterproductive. There are ways around Toxic in other stages that would be more beneficial to us than forcing CAP to go with offensively lackluster Steel or Poison typing. The kind of sweeper we are trying to build wants to have a viable Dragon Dance set, and that will require having effective offensive STAB. Few combinations have this that don't suffer elsewhere.

If the CM set is a Rest-talk set, Toxic is generally moot. Immunity is the weakest way to negate it, Poison Heal the strongest. The other issue since there are both +1 boosters on offense is that CAP will generally be competent with one boost, so the Toxic timer is less of an issue.

Electric / Fairy has been talked about fairly extensively already - I would argue that it should be slated though because it is objectively the most offense-oriented option presented in these slates, and we are creating a stat-up sweeper. Electric/Fairy have the best SE STAB coverage of the presented choices, no one type has a mutual resistance (like Water in Water/Steel), and unresisted three-move coverage in Elec/Fairy/Fire. Its resistances are discreet but relevant, and getting back to coverage, Elec + Fire is super-effective against the biggest priority users in the tier, Talonflame and Scizor. There is some valid criticism of physical options for this coverage, but Wild Charge has 90 BP, 100 Acc, and 25% recoil compared to the much more common sweeper Talonflame that uses moves with 33% recoil. Blaze Kick's accuracy cut vs Fire Punch may or may not be worth the power, Flare Blitz might have optics issues.

Regardless, Electric / Fairy presents us with an offensive approach to a Pokemon we are trying to craft with at least two different kinds of competent stat-boosting offense. The typing lends itself to switching into pivot moves, and if the wrong counter for the set is selected by the opponent, CAP will still have enough HP to set up even with chip damage.

Finally, unlike the various Water-typed options Electric / Fairy does not face direct competition with viable DD or CM users of the same or similar type like Water variants do with Gyarados and Keldeo, respectively.

 

[Improbable Imposter]

I'm going to put in a vote for the Fairy/Electric typing. Only two weaknesses, a paralysis immunity, 5 great resistances (including Flying...I'm looking at you, Talonflame), and great possible physical and special STABs would make the new 'mon a great booster. Fairy/Electric also has fantastic neutral coverage, with only a few Pokemon being able to stand up to it. Toxic is always an issue, but maybe we could make this the first CAP ever that knows refresh, though that's a discussion for a different board. Additionally, most CAPmons have typings unique from the games, and other than Ghost/Fairy, the aforementioned type combos have been done.

 

[aim]

I think the main thing about having steel typing is not only the toxic immunity, as stall isn't as viable as it was back in early ORAS due to the rise of Mega Altaria, but the resistances and ability to beat something a lot of other Calm Mind users can't beat...Clefable. As well as resisting the afformentioned revenge killers, (see earlier post) Steel typing allows it to set up on a majority of huge threats in the metagame, something that a lot of the other bulky waters can't do. Suicune loses to DD Heal Bell or DD Facade Mega Altaria, as does Slowbro and Keldeo. Manaphy, admittedly, can beat it if Altaria hasn't already boosted but that's not really the main point of why steel typing is so good. It allows it to beat once of the biggest annoyances to any set up mon, the mini pink blob. Unaware Clefable can shrug off hits from any of the previous bulky waters (even mega gyarados with mold breaker) but it can't do that to Cap 20 if it does become Water/Steel. If we want Cap 20 to be able to set up on revenge killers as well as beat checks to common Dragon Dancers/Calm Minders, Water/Steel is the way to go. There are tons of viable water types in ORAS OU (as mentioned earlier and by you, Deck Knight), and while it may seem that adding another with boosting capabilities may just face direct competition with the already established ones, I hope you see from my reasoning that this is in fact, not true.

 

[Korski]

I am having trouble navigating the arguments for Water / Steel and against Electric / Fairy. On the one hand, it has *the perfect* spammable STAB in Scald (resisted by 17 OU Pokemon, 10 of whom are setup sweepers, 5 of which carry SE attacks on their boosting sets), while on the other hand, Fairy / Electric lacks any good spammable moves (Fairy being resisted by 9 OU Pokemon, 1 of whom is a setup sweeper). Are we comfortable relying on a 30% chance to not be set up on with impunity? What’s the game plan? Meanwhile, CM Electric’s weakness to Ground is a complete dealbreaker, while CM Steel’s weakness to Ground is a minor issue at most, and the weakness of both its boosting sets to Keldeo and Rotom-W (and Conkeldurr and Breloom) is completely ignored. Moving along, we need Need NEED to be immune to Toxic, even though our Water STAB hits for SE damage the only two Pokemon in the tier that regularly use Toxic, but a Paralysis immunity is just sort of whatever, for unspecified reasons. Electric / Fairy has problems with Heatran, even though it doesn’t resist Electric, so it’s a total loss. Better go with a typing whose STABs are walled by an entire and entirely common typing. This should be elaborated on. DD Electric / Fairy can’t beat Clefable because it lacks a SE STAB and that’s the only way to beat Clefable. Alternatively, Water / Steel will run two coverage moves (or even mono-Water) because Water is so good on its own and is redundant with Steel, but it will also beat Clefable and other Fairies because it will run Steel STAB. And it’s okay that Water / Steel is walled by so many Pokemon because of potential coverage, yet Electric / Fairy can’t break certain Steel types because I guess coverage is off the table. Walk me through this. For example, Electric / Fairy is resisted by Ferrothorn, so why bother? Let’s do Water / Steel. What?

Ignore the fact that with Water / Steel, both the CM and DD sets will be directly comparable to and completely outclassed by the statistically specialized Water-types that run those same sets (without ability/stat/movepool “wizardry”), and ignore the fact that the CAP will likely lose to those same Water-type boosters (Gyarados-M, Keldeo, Slowbro-M) and others that can take a neutral 80 BP STAB at +0 or +1 (probably Breloom, Celebi, Dragonite, Garchomp, Sableye-M, and Thundurus). Let’s presume the CM set is only for tackling stall and the DD set is only for taking on offense, and that CM gets wham-sauced by offense and DD gets trolled by defense, as Water / Steel is only really suited for, with exceptions (Ferrothorn, Rotom-W). It STILL only utilizes its surprise value to tinker with a couple of specific checks and runs into common problems regardless of which boosting set it’s using. Beyond that, are both offense and stall really common enough in comparison to one another to make both boosting sets equally viable in a way that gives them both surprise value? If I’m wrong about these things, I haven’t seen them addressed much at all in the thread and I think they are all crucial points to consider before we move on to the Threats Discussion.

Myself and others have already posted numerous times in support of Electric / Fairy and in response to arguments against the typing, exhaustively, so if you remain unconvinced then I am afraid you are unconvinceable. This post is more so to give Water / Steel the sort of scrutiny Electric / Fairy has been enduring, as not too many posts have acknowledged any sort of flaw or shortcoming in the typing, when there are some pretty big ones we shouldn’t ignore.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Myself and others have already posted numerous times in support of Electric / Fairy and in response to arguments against the typing, exhaustively, so if you remain unconvinced then I am afraid you are unconvinceable. This post is more so to give Water / Steel the sort of scrutiny Electric / Fairy has been enduring, as not too many posts have acknowledged any sort of flaw or shortcoming in the typing, when there are some pretty big ones we shouldn’t ignore.

Electric/Fairy isn't getting more scrutiny than it deserves. In fact, it's quite arguable that it's getting way too little scrutiny given all it's shortcomings. The arguments behind Electric/Fairy over Ghost/Fairy are that Ghost STAB is irrelevant because of its lack of super effective coverage on the metagame despite the fact that Ghost/Fairy hits more things super effectively than does Electric Fairy in this metagame (Electric's 26 to Ghost's 27 if you say a Pokemon and it's Mega are two seperate Pokemon, and 23 to 25 otherwise) and the things that Ghost Fairy hits super effectively take up a greater percentage of OU's metagame than do the Electric Fairy ones. Electric's poor physical offensive typing is forgivable because it has Fairy to back it up, but Ghost's poor physical offensive typing is completely inexcusable. Ghost isn't spammable despite being only walled by the two Normal types in OU (One of which is Lopunny which can't win anyway) and Dark types, but Electric getting walled by Ground types and Electric Immunity abilities (Of which there are a lot) isn't a problem. Water/Steel is apparently better than Electric/Fairy against Landorus despite it still probably dying before it gets an attack in. Electric/Fairy is thus in turn better than Ghost/Fairy which actually can take a hit from Landorus without dying. But that's okay, because Electric Fairy can have an ability to reduce Lando's impact on it. Just don't ask for an ability to reduce the impact of status moves on Ghost/Fairy. Can't happen. Electric/Fairy needing a Fire or Fighting coverage move to take on its hard counters in Steel typing isn't problematic, but Ghost/Fairy only wanting a little push against his soft checks by including a Fire or Fighting move is impossible. Water/Steel is worse than Electric/Fairy because Water types face stiff competition in the realm of Calm Mind from Slowbro and Keldeo, because we all know Fairies don't Calm Mind. Fairy's apparently don't Dragon Dance either, so I've clearly been playing my Mega Altaria wrong.

Frankly, the fact that everybody's been lenient on that typing and it's still unconvincing is a clear sign it needs to go.

Oh almost forgot. Apparently Electric Fairy is the perfect answer to Talonflame despite the fact that with 126 base Speed, it's going to smack us with Flare Blitz unless we coneced every Dragon Dance set has to be Jolly.

 

[Empress]

I am having trouble navigating the arguments for Water / Steel and against Electric / Fairy. On the one hand, it has *the perfect* spammable STAB in Scald (resisted by 17 OU Pokemon, 10 of whom are setup sweepers, 5 of which carry SE attacks on their boosting sets), while on the other hand, Fairy / Electric lacks any good spammable moves (Fairy being resisted by 9 OU Pokemon, 1 of whom is a setup sweeper). Are we comfortable relying on a 30% chance to not be set up on with impunity? What’s the game plan? Meanwhile, CM Electric’s weakness to Ground is a complete dealbreaker, while CM Steel’s weakness to Ground is a minor issue at most, and the weakness of both its boosting sets to Keldeo and Rotom-W (and Conkeldurr and Breloom) is completely ignored. Moving along, we need Need NEED to be immune to Toxic, even though our Water STAB hits for SE damage the only two Pokemon in the tier that regularly use Toxic, but a Paralysis immunity is just sort of whatever, for unspecified reasons. Electric / Fairy has problems with Heatran, even though it doesn’t resist Electric, so it’s a total loss. Better go with a typing whose STABs are walled by an entire and entirely common typing. This should be elaborated on. DD Electric / Fairy can’t beat Clefable because it lacks a SE STAB and that’s the only way to beat Clefable. Alternatively, Water / Steel will run two coverage moves (or even mono-Water) because Water is so good on its own and is redundant with Steel, but it will also beat Clefable and other Fairies because it will run Steel STAB. And it’s okay that Water / Steel is walled by so many Pokemon because of potential coverage, yet Electric / Fairy can’t break certain Steel types because I guess coverage is off the table. Walk me through this. For example, Electric / Fairy is resisted by Ferrothorn, so why bother? Let’s do Water / Steel. What?

Ignore the fact that with Water / Steel, both the CM and DD sets will be directly comparable to and completely outclassed by the statistically specialized Water-types that run those same sets (without ability/stat/movepool “wizardry”), and ignore the fact that the CAP will likely lose to those same Water-type boosters (Gyarados-M, Keldeo, Slowbro-M) and others that can take a neutral 80 BP STAB at +0 or +1 (probably Breloom, Celebi, Dragonite, Garchomp, Sableye-M, and Thundurus). Let’s presume the CM set is only for tackling stall and the DD set is only for taking on offense, and that CM gets wham-sauced by offense and DD gets trolled by defense, as Water / Steel is only really suited for, with exceptions (Ferrothorn, Rotom-W). It STILL only utilizes its surprise value to tinker with a couple of specific checks and runs into common problems regardless of which boosting set it’s using. Beyond that, are both offense and stall really common enough in comparison to one another to make both boosting sets equally viable in a way that gives them both surprise value? If I’m wrong about these things, I haven’t seen them addressed much at all in the thread and I think they are all crucial points to consider before we move on to the Threats Discussion.

Myself and others have already posted numerous times in support of Electric / Fairy and in response to arguments against the typing, exhaustively, so if you remain unconvinced then I am afraid you are unconvinceable. This post is more so to give Water / Steel the sort of scrutiny Electric / Fairy has been enduring, as not too many posts have acknowledged any sort of flaw or shortcoming in the typing, when there are some pretty big ones we shouldn’t ignore.

I don't feel that this was directed at me, but just so you're aware, I'm not entirely opposed to Electric/Fairy. Fairy is a very spammable STAB type, and the paralysis immunity is incredible for our DD set (not as useful as a Toxic immunity for the CM set, but still pretty damn useful). The argument that Electric/Fairy won't let us beat Clefable applies solely to Unaware Clefable, considering it wipes out our stat boosts and thys we can't hit it hard without hitting it SE. We can beat Magic Guard Clef just fine with this typing. Also I forgot that Electric is resistant to Steel, so sorry about stating that we'd have problems with Heatran.

Conversely, both Water/Steel and Electric/Fairy need their coverage slots, though Electric/Fairy probably wishes it had room for two- one for Steels and one for Grounds. What makes Water/Steel's weakness to Ground less of a problem than Electric/Fairy's weakness to Ground is the fact that Water hits Ground SE, thus preventing Ground-types from switching in on our STAB moves.

Electric/Fairy isn't getting more scrutiny than it deserves. In fact, it's quite arguable that it's getting way too little scrutiny given all it's shortcomings. The arguments behind Electric/Fairy over Ghost/Fairy are that Ghost STAB is irrelevant because of its lack of super effective coverage on the metagame despite the fact that Ghost/Fairy hits more things super effectively than does Electric Fairy in this metagame (Electric's 26 to Ghost's 27 if you say a Pokemon and it's Mega are two seperate Pokemon, and 23 to 25 otherwise) and the things that Ghost Fairy hits super effectively take up a greater percentage of OU's metagame than do the Electric Fairy ones. Electric's poor physical offensive typing is forgivable because it has Fairy to back it up, but Ghost's poor physical offensive typing is completely inexcusable. Ghost isn't spammable despite being only walled by the two Normal types in OU (One of which is Lopunny which can't win anyway) and Dark types, but Electric getting walled by Ground types and Electric Immunity abilities (Of which there are a lot) isn't a problem. Water/Steel is apparently better than Electric/Fairy against Landorus despite it still probably dying before it gets an attack in. Electric/Fairy is thus in turn better than Ghost/Fairy which actually can take a hit from Landorus without dying. But that's okay, because Electric Fairy can have an ability to reduce Lando's impact on it. Just don't ask for an ability to reduce the impact of status moves on Ghost/Fairy. Can't happen. Electric/Fairy needing a Fire or Fighting coverage move to take on its hard counters in Steel typing isn't problematic, but Ghost/Fairy only wanting a little push against his soft checks by including a Fire or Fighting move is impossible. Water/Steel is worse than Electric/Fairy because Water types face stiff competition in the realm of Calm Mind from Slowbro and Keldeo, because we all know Fairies don't Calm Mind. Fairy's apparently don't Dragon Dance either, so I've clearly been playing my Mega Altaria wrong.

Frankly, the fact that everybody's been lenient on that typing and it's still unconvincing is a clear sign it needs to go.

Oh almost forgot. Apparently Electric Fairy is the perfect answer to Talonflame despite the fact that with 126 base Speed, it's going to smack us with Flare Blitz unless we coneced every Dragon Dance set has to be Jolly.

No, the problem with Ghost STAB is that the physical Ghost-type moves are pretty awful, thus making our DD set inferior to our CM set. The type itself is spammable just fine, but the moves themselves are not strong enough to be spammed. Admittedly, Electric isn't much better due to Thunder Punch being marginally stronger than Shadow Claw and Wild Charge and Volt Tackle having recoil, but you get the idea. In addition, the guys on IRC this afternoon have been pushing to have Fusion Bolt allowed again; if they successfully appeal, the worries of Electric being a poor physical type are taken care of. Also, who said a weakness to Ground means instant death to Lando-T's Earthquake (and Ground moves in general)? Don't forget that this mon can have the bulk and/or coverage to take on Lando just fine, no matter the typing.

Perhaps the biggest flaw is Ghost/Fairy having a neutral matchup with Talonflame. Electric/Fairy would be a good answer to it because our DD set could outspeed T-Flame after a boost regardless of whether it's Jolly or Adamant. And even if Adamant DD doesn't outspeed T-Flame after a boost (which would not happen unless we get 79 base Speed or lower), we could simply have enough bulk to take a Flare Blitz and smack T-Flame with a STAB Electric-type attack. We can't hit T-Flame SE with Ghost/Fairy STAB. Yes, coverage, but we may very well be using it on something else. A good matchup against T-Flame is critical to this mon's success, hence the large support behind Water/Steel, among others.

On a side note, Water/Steel is better than Electric/Fairy at handling Landorus because our CAP would not have to use a moveslot on a coverage move for Lando; it could simply use its STAB to deter Lando from switching in, or even beating it one-on-one depending on how the stats play out.

EDIT: Damn I'm posting at 2 in the morning :P

 

[skies]

Water / Steel definitely catches my attention as a typing because I feel it offers a unique set of resistances, a crucial Toxic immunity, and something I feel is being overlooked: the resistance to Psyshock. This is something that I find crucial in a Calm Mind versus Calm Mind situation, and is something the other typings do not offer. Water is also great because, going back to the Calm Mind versus Calm Mind situation, Scald can net a burn to potentially power through the opposing Calm Mind Pokemon. I feel this typing grants our CAP with the best way to utilize Calm Mind. But what does it do for Dragon Dance, you might ask? Well, the typing is only weak to Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave in terms of priority, while also carrying a resistance to Ice Shard, Aqua Jet, Brave Bird, Extreme Speed, and a neutrality to Sucker Punch. Being resistant to priority, immune to Toxic, and resistant to Psyshock are the reasons why I believe this typing is the superior typing and will allow our CAP to be as excellent as possible.

Regarding Korski's concerns with being outclassed by other Water-type boosters, which is definitely a fair assumption, I do not believe it to be the case. During Calm Mind wars, Water / Steel is objectively better than Water / Fighting or Water / Psychic. Mega Gyarados's typing is very unimpressive as well, meaning our Dragon Dance side of the Pokemon could potentially use its typing to its advantage in some way. I really do not feel that they will have a flip-flopped matchup versus various team archetypes, but will be more pressured by set up on offense either way. My feelings would be that it would be pressured, making it somewhat difficult to set up, but once the ball is rolling, then it will be harder to stop. Calm Mind is better against stall on many Pokemon that get it, and this is no exception. I think it could give offense a hard time as well, because it will require powerful Fighting-type attacks to break it, and after that's out of the way, then there won't be a problem. Water / Steel is my favorite typing choice.

Electric / Fairy actually sounds like an interesting option. Both Electric and Fairy movepools are large, and both carry powerful moves to use on both ends of the spectrum. However, I feel this typing limits our CAP as a Calm Mind user. Let's say we're using Calm Mind / Rest / Sleep Talk / [Electric / Fairy]. We then have an issue with Electric being a terrible move to have as our single attack because it has something immune to it. Fairy is resisted by Steel-types, which are incredibly common in the OU metagame. Both options make it difficult to choose, and it would need both to be effective. A Calm Mind / Electric / Fairy / Coverage set could be potentially used as an offensive Calm Mind user, so I think this is interesting, but if our intent is more defensively-oriented, than this typing isn't as good. My main gripe with Electric / Fairy is that its weaknesses are far too easy to exploit. Looking just at the usage stats for OU, we have Landorus-Therian in #1, Ferrothorn in #4, Bisharp in #5, Scizor in #8, Heatran in #10, and Metagross in #16, all of which are able to take advantage of its typing. I think it's interesting how five Pokemon in the top 20 are of the Steel typing. This could potentially sway us away from this typing because Fairy-typing is able to be taken advantage of by the ever present Steel-types. I feel that Electric / Fairy is a cool typing, but it just falls short both offensively and defensively.

 

[Deck Knight]

Oh almost forgot. Apparently Electric Fairy is the perfect answer to Talonflame despite the fact that with 126 base Speed, it's going to smack us with Flare Blitz unless we coneced every Dragon Dance set has to be Jolly.

Any Base Speed Stat of at least 80 [Max Neutral Speed 259] will be able to outrun all variants of Talonflame (Max Speed 386) after Dragon Dance without using a speed boosting nature, assuming 248 EVs. Given the concerns for Lando-T, and the fact we are building a stat-up sweeper, I have few doubts that CAP will meet or exceed this modest benchmark. Base Speed stats of at least 68 can do the same with a speed boosting nature.

The hyperbole was rather unnecessary.

As far as a mono-attacking CM set, With sufficient boosts Moonblast should be more than capable of overwhelming nearly every Steel-type in the tier. Heatran has the highest resistance and the ability to phaze, but if CAP is the last Pokemon Heatran will be relying on Earth Power to take it down. Not an impossible scenario with multiple critical hits - but once CAP starts going, Moonblast gets a SpA drop, or CM builds up enough SpD boosts, Heatran falls. Moonblast is easily as SPAMmable as Scald, more powerful, and no ability from a niche counter provides immunity to it.

EDIT: unfixable only Lando-T has super-effective STAB moves on CAP. Electric/Fairy is neutral to Steel, and all those mons except Ferro are neutral to Electric (Bisharp is even neutral to Fairy). Heatran uses Ground coverage, but Metagross is primarily running Hammer Arm/GK for coverage (EDIT: Thanks P3DS - looked it up and MegaMeta is still a thing.)

 

[Albacore]

I don't think Electric / Fairy (and most of the other typings suggested) being weak to Scarf Landorus-T is nearly as big of a problem as some people are claiming. Firstly, its choice lock makes it really easy to take advantage of. This is especially true considering that a Fairy/Electric would take nothing at all from U-Turn. This means that Lando-T has to click EQ and can't afford to try to rack up momentum with U-Turn in case the CAP stays in, since that gives it yet another opportunity to set up, and if the opponent's only check is Lando-T the CAP will have set up even more by the time Lando-T comes in again, and will probably be able to beat it from there. So sending in an EQ immunity is a very safe play in that situation, and it gives your team a completely free turn which you can use to your advantage.

Plus, Landorus-T is a very easy Pokemon to wear down. It's prone to SR, Rocky Helmet, Iron Barbs, Rough Skin, and constantly switching in on a bunch of other Pokemon. And since our CAP will probably be quite bulky and have recovery, it'll have a lot of opportunities to come in and attempt a sweep or just get some damage off, which in turn will wear down Landorus if it's the main switchin to the CAP (and also forces a lot of 50/50 situations between EQ and U-Turn as mentioned above). Plus, we also have the option to give it over 91 Speed which enables us to outspeed it at +1 if we give it a Jolly nature. Now, let's assume we also give it a base 120 attack. We get this :

252 Atk Life Orb CAP Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 192-227 (60.1 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (+1 from the boost, -1 from Intimidate)

Given that in practice, Scarf Lando-T will almost never be at more than, say, 60% by lategame (aka once our CAP is prepared to sweep the opposing team) it can be beaten without much difficulty even if the CAP is weak to it.

As for the merits of Elec/Fairy overall, although I personally prefer a defensive approach, we should definitely slate at least one "offensive" typing which is more biased towards DD then CM, and Elec/Fairy is pretty much the best of these, so I don't see why it wouldn't be slated.

 

[P3DS]

if its back to running EQ now that Metagrossite is history

I'm pretty certain metagrossite is still in OU, or have I missed something.

Anyway, looking further, electric/fairy and poison/dark are my personal favourites. I've stated before about how electric/fairy needs some looking into in regards to physical move pool, as the lack of decent physical moves does hinder it, but I feel it has a ton of potential. Poison/Dark, has a better spread of moves, and can easily run both CM and DD sets equally. Also, the mono weakness is great, and toxic immunity is cool too.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Also, who said a weakness to Ground means instant death to Lando-T's Earthquake (and Ground moves in general)? Don't forget that this mon can have the bulk and/or coverage to take on Lando just fine, no matter the typing. We have discussed the possibilities of status-absorbing abilities and even abilities to patch up the power of our physical moves, but that comes later in the process.

Disclaimer: I am not intending to polljump. Perhaps the biggest flaw is Ghost/Fairy having a neutral matchup with Talonflame. Electric/Fairy would be a good answer to it because our DD set could outspeed T-Flame after a boost regardless of whether it's Jolly or Adamant. And even if Adamant DD doesn't outspeed T-Flame after a boost (which would not happen unless we get 79 base Speed or lower), we could simply have enough bulk to take a Flare Blitz and smack T-Flame with a STAB Electric-type attack. We can't hit T-Flame SE with Ghost/Fairy STAB. Yes, coverage, but we may very well be using it on something else. A good matchup against T-Flame is critical to this mon's success, hence the large support behind Water/Steel, among others.

This logic makes no sense. Any defensive spread that would let an Electric/Fairy tank a super-effective STAB Earthquake from Lando would necessarily let a Ghost Fairy a Brave Bird from Talonflame (For reference, a super effective hit from Lando's CS Earthquake deals 50% more damage than a regular efficiency hit from Talonflame's CB Brave Bird, an that takes about 140 PT already) But ignoring that, even without super effective hits, Talonflame is working with 78/71 Defensive stats against our Dragon Dance. At that point, you don't need super effective moves to kill it. Most +1 attacks from even mediocre pokemon are enough to do the job on those stats. If the Dragon Dance set can't break that without super effective moves, then it's going to be garbage no matter what its typing is. Further, even if Talonflame turns out to be Bulk Up rendering most of these calculations moot as Talon can buff up on us, that makes it susceptible to the CM set.

 

[Alfalfa]

I was originally a bit suspicious about Electric / Fairy, but the neutrality to Steel and the immunity to Paralysis is actually really important in terms of justifying this CAP. I feel like I am essentially repeating Deck Knight's statements, but with the exception of Excadrill and maybe Ferrothorn, this CAP does have the potential to beat most Steels.

Avnomke while Ground / Flying has good potential, it is really offset by a 4x weakness to Ice Shard, which can really backfire for more offensive sets. There is also Aqua Jet, but Ice Shard is a bigger thorn up this thing's side. If it was not for the severe Ice weakness though, it might work, in spite of a critical Water weakness as well.

Elite Lord Sigma Ground / Fairy is a good typing, but it still has issues beating most Steels in the tier with a mono-Fairy attack. Unlike Electric / Fairy, Ground / Fairy lacks a Steel neutrality that can cause it to lose Steels if it is not running a Ground STAB, which does not necessarily complement the objective of the Calm Mind set that well. Ground / Fairy would be interesting to explore, but I do not think it is ideal for this CAP.

 

[Ununhexium]

Alright after seeing good arguments I will be adding Electric / Fairy to the slate

 

[Burt Racecar]

Both Deck Knight and Korski have made excellent posts pushing the advantages of Electric/Fairy throughout this whole thread. I'm very surprised that further convincing is still required for it to make the slate. I pretty much agree with everything these two have said.
However Korski, the reason Water (Scald) is the most spammable CM move is because of the burn chance. I'm willing to bet Water would not have been a popular choice if not for this fact.


unfixable, water/steel doesn't necessarily do anything Clefable unless we forgo Scald for Flash Cannon.

Calm Mind is more reliant upon a singular attack, instead utilizing recovery and overwhelming power and bulk to be able to KO even healthy pokemon.

This was in the OP, heavily suggesting CM set should be a rest talk or sub recover set.


On IRC I've heard a couple of people say electric/fairy apparently ignores making a great CM set, but I would argue that water/steel similarly ignores making a great DD set.

EDIT: ninja slated, haha.

 

[BigWigs]

Gonna make one last argument for Electric/Water as the typing, mainly addressing the flaws that have been pointed out in it.

1. No Toxic immunity

This seems to be an issue pointed out at non-Steel and Poison types as a major reason not to use them. I think, although an immunity to a status like Toxic which can neuter a sweep for both sets is very useful, there are two things I want to say:

First, look at what uses Toxic most frequently:

Chansey
Heatran
Gliscor

Chansey will be a problem with or without Toxic immunity, so I think it's moot in that case. For the other 2, look at it this way: Assuming we just set up a few CM boosts on a revenge killer and killed them (since switching into a Water STAB is a huge risk), the opponent switches in Gliscor/Heatran in an attempt to poison us. However, they will likely have to take a +something STAB SE Water move to the face before doing that. That hurts a lot. Let's run some CM calcs, seeing as that's the one that Toxic troubles more.

+2 0 SpA Abomasnow Scald vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 234-276 (60.7 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 0 SpA Abomasnow Scald vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 296-350 (84 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Those odds seem pretty nice to me, and that's just at +2. Assuming we'd like to boost up as much as we can for CM, we can potentially do so much more with even more boosts.

Here's the second point:

I think Paralysis is actually just as important as Toxic immunity is, and we can't have one or the other. Think about it: When you get struck by a Thunder Wave, a Dragon Dance sweep is very much stopped, as your speed boosts mean nothing and you're just fodder now. Meanwhile, Calm Mind can get suddenly paralyzed whilst plowing through the enemy, giving them a chance to strike back. The speed drop is also important even in this set, as we're also trying to have a good speed tier for DD anyways, this can result in the loss of some important speed advantages that can decide a match. Paralysis immunity is far from 'meh' and can help just as much as a burn (but no fire suggestions tho) and poison immunity can, just in a different way.

2. No good physical STABs

I think this is one of those "nowhere near as bad" cases. Although Fusion Bolt being disallowed is bad for it, sure, it's not like Gen 4 Electivire, where your only hope is to Thunder Punch your way to victory. Now there's Wild Charge, which is stronger than Iron Head/Waterfall and just as strong as Play Rough with no accuracy worries, but recoil is indeed not a likable quality on a sweeper. So? It's not the end of the world if we need to rely on a recoil move for our main damage source. There's also Volt Tackle, if that's allowed, if people argue that Wild Charge is too weak or something.

3. Water/Steel does everything Water/Electric can better, and more

These two typings share the Water type, Brave Bird resistance, and Ground weakness, however, there are things that Electric can do that Steel can't do, and can compete with its qualities:

1. As stated earlier, both the immunity to poison and paralysis seem equally important to me.
2. Steel beats Clefable, the bane of all setup sweepers, and some other Fairies. Electric can beat Water types like Keldeo and Rotom-W (well, hit neutrally), some bulky Flying types like Skarmory and Mandibuzz, and is generally harder to wall despite both stabs being resisted by Dragons (in which I prefer to my post in page 2), so even.
3. Water/Steel has three weaknesses: Ground (which can be hit on the switch for CM and beat by DD in general), Fighting (which has a priority), and Electric, all of which are common. Water/Electric has two: Grass (which is an uncommon attacking type) and Ground (same thing as I said in Water/Steel). With only one common weakness, Water/Electric can arguably set up more easily in comparison to Water/Steel.

Overall, I'm fighting on Water/Electric to the bitter end, but can, at this point, also settle for Water/Steel or Water/Poison due to their similarities.

 

[Bughouse]

I was hoping to not need to post here again, since consensus seemed to have formed, but Korski's post is concerning to me. So here comes my essay-length response. God I hate it when I tl;dr...

Electric/Fairy coverage as a whole is ok. The way the coverage will actually work is not.

The biggest problem offensively is that it will force a CM set to run both STABs to be remotely useful. Grounds (mostly Lando-T, but also a lot of Lando-I, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Excadrill, and Garchomp) are far too common to run mono-attacking Electric. And Heatran/Metagross/Scizor/Talonflame/Ferrothorn are far too common to run mono-attacking Fairy. Picking that typing will force the CAP to run 2 attacks, which greatly limits the usability of a CM booster that isn't naturally protected from status. Electric/Fairy would all but force Poison Heal as the ability and I think that is a very dangerous step. And when Electric or Fairy loses to a mon, it just loses. Period. There is no universe in which Electric/Fairy will ever beat Ferrothorn (without HP Fire of course, but that has plenty of its own problems). But all those resistances for Scald you mentioned... clearly they're not doing their job all that well since Scald is so prevalent. You just can't count Breloom, Azumarill, Dragonite, or Gyarados as reliable Scald resists. It is entirely possible for a Water type to wear down Ferrothorn. And if it doesn't burn the first time Ferro switches in, that's fine. You'll get another shot or two later. CM + Scald monocoverage works. We've literally known this for years. That's just not a questionable point.

Turning to the DD set, Electric/Fairy will flat out lose to all the relevant grounds except for Garchomp at +1 speed anyway. You're just not hitting anything even remotely hard enough unless we give the CAP Icicle Crash. (Ice Fang would necessitate 120ish attack, which is quite high given where the rest of its stats will need to be for CM to work and for it to have a usable speed tier.) That's not the case with Water/Steel where a STAB Waterfall/Aqua Tail (Crabhammer?) will be doing a hefty chunk and beyond that the Ground has to beware switching into the CAP in the first place since it may just use its STAB Water.

Now turning very specifically to your post, Korski, it is full of bizarre rant-y comments structured in a way that make little logical sense. I'm going to try to clear things up because it seems they aren't clear to you and you're confused how people could possibly think a better typing for the concept is better than a worse one.

First, the ground weakness on the two mons is patently different BECAUSE the Water stab scares Grounds away. Obviously the literal weakness is equivalent. But it is not unreasonable to suggest that Water/Steel fares better against Grounds than Electric/Fairy. It's in fact undebatably true.

Second, Water/Steel's toxic immunity may mean less since it can already beat Heatran, sure, but that doesn't lessen the fact whatsoever that Toxic (or indeed Toxic Spikes) will demolish Electric/Fairy's ability to run CM. Your point "against" Water/Steel somehow being duplicative and wasteful in fact totally backfires because at least it has a way. Electric/Fairy does not.

Third, When it comes to beating Clefable, the main concern comes from the DD and CM sets' ability to break Unaware. Well, in the case of CM Water/Steel you will either have Steel STAB, in which case you win, or if you run monoattacking, you can potentially have Taunt as your fourth slot, in which case you also win. This is doable when you have a spammable STAB like Scald. Taunt CM on Electric/Fairy however is a terrible idea as I've already explained neither of those STABs works whatsoever as a monoattacker. And when it comes to DD, of course having access to Steel STAB will make breaking Unaware Clef more doable. You can do it with Electric/Fairy if you insist, but it will take a bloated attack stat, meanwhile Clefable's Moonblasts will actually hurt, without the nice resistance Steel brings. If you look to the lesser used Unware mon Quagsire, again Water/Steel comes out on top for the CM sets because of Scald burns providing a much better chance at emerging victorious. Both would lose v Quagsire in the DD scenario.

Fourth, the only waters Water/Steel will conclusively lose to are Keldeo and Rotom-W. Ironically, where Scald is so unreliable for us, you assume we will somehow lose to all other Waters... most of whom have no better move to use than, wait for it, scald. Other Waters, which rely on Scald burning first, can be incredibly easy to remedy down the line in ways that, unlike Poison Heal being necessary to fix Electric/Fairy, are not overpowered. It could be as simple as Water Veil to ensure we will always burn them before they burns us... since we can't get burned.

Finally, if you're so worried about CM CAP being used as set-up bait and the opponent threatening a sweep, I'd sure as heck rather be able to stop SD Gliscor and SD Roost Scizor from setting up for free than not. Water STAB named Scald to the rescue. Although it's true Electric/Fairy stops an obvious mon or two, like Mega Altaria, it's not as though Mega Altaria is going to try to set up on Water/Steel anyway. If it has EQ it doesn't have Heal Bell for Scald burns... and if it has Heal Bell all it has is Fairy attacking which doesn't threaten CAP. Gyarados won't risk the Scald burns either. The only particularly obvious set-up threat where Electric/Fairy definitely wins and Water/Steel doesn't is Keldeo. There are a few other set up threats like Manaphy that Electric/Fairy clearly beats, but it is totally feasible to make Water/Steel beat them too. And long story short, I'm totally fine to trade Keldeo for Gliscor and MScizor.

There are exactly two viable reasons to support Electric/Fairy, in my mind. The first is the paralysis immunity, which is, admittedly, nice, though hardly necessary. Charizard-X and Mega Gyarados successfully run DD sets despite their susceptibility to Prankster T-Wave. Would they be better if they could also be immune? For sure. But are they getting along fine without it? Absolutely. The second reason is the resistance to Breloom's Mach Punch and Bisharp's Sucker Punch, though I could easily come back with Water/Steel's resistance to Lopunny's Fake Out, Azumarill's Aqua Jet, and Scizor's Bullet Punch. If for some particular reason you think the first two matter most, then by all means that's a reason. It still does not however come close to beating out all the other reasons Electric/Fairy is so inferior to Water/Steel.

 

[Empress]

This logic makes no sense. Any defensive spread that would let an Electric/Fairy tank a super-effective STAB Earthquake from Lando would necessarily let a Ghost Fairy a Brave Bird from Talonflame (For reference, a super effective hit from Lando's CS Earthquake deals 50% more damage than a regular efficiency hit from Talonflame's CB Brave Bird, an that takes about 140 PT already) But ignoring that, even without super effective hits, Talonflame is working with 78/71 Defensive stats against our Dragon Dance. At that point, you don't need super effective moves to kill it. Most +1 attacks from even mediocre pokemon are enough to do the job on those stats. If the Dragon Dance set can't break that without super effective moves, then it's going to be garbage no matter what its typing is. Further, even if Talonflame turns out to be Bulk Up rendering most of these calculations moot as Talon can buff up on us, that makes it susceptible to the CM set.

+1 252+ Atk (base 125 Attack Ghost-type) Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 241-285 (81.1 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With Ghost/Fairy we'd need an inflated Attack stat to one-shot T-Flame after a boost, and inflated physical bulk to not be 2HKOed by its Brave Bird. This is assuming rocks are off the field, but you get the idea. 140 PT? Do the calcs, buddy. With 140 PT (approximately), here is the calc. Also just so you're aware, the calc is going off the DD set.
252 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (140 PT Ghost/Fairy) : 168-198 (49.8 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Even if T-Flame has no CB and a neutral nature for Attack, it still is pretty much guaranteed to 2HKO our DD set. Obviously our CM set will have an easier time with T-Flame because it will likely invest in HP, but it's very important for our DD set to not be revenge killed.

 

[mphallor]

I was hoping to not need to post here again, since consensus seemed to have formed, but Korski's post is concerning to me. So here comes my essay-length response. God I hate it when I tl;dr...

Electric/Fairy coverage as a whole is ok. The way the coverage will actually work is not.

The biggest problem offensively is that it will force a CM set to run both STABs to be remotely useful. Grounds (mostly Lando-T, but also a lot of Lando-I, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Excadrill, and Garchomp) are far too common to run mono-attacking Electric. And Heatran/Metagross/Scizor/Talonflame/Ferrothorn are far too common to run mono-attacking Fairy. Picking that typing will force the CAP to run 2 attacks, which greatly limits the usability of a CM booster that isn't naturally protected from status. Electric/Fairy would all but force Poison Heal as the ability and I think that is a very dangerous step. And when Electric or Fairy loses to a mon, it just loses. Period. There is no universe in which Electric/Fairy will ever beat Ferrothorn (without HP Fire of course, but that has plenty of its own problems). But all those resistances for Scald you mentioned... clearly they're not doing their job all that well since Scald is so prevalent. You just can't count Breloom, Azumarill, Dragonite, or Gyarados as reliable Scald resists. It is entirely possible for a Water type to wear down Ferrothorn. And if it doesn't burn the first time Ferro switches in, that's fine. You'll get another shot or two later. CM + Scald monocoverage works. We've literally known this for years. That's just not a questionable point.

Turning to the DD set, Electric/Fairy will flat out lose to all the relevant grounds except for Garchomp at +1 speed anyway. You're just not hitting anything even remotely hard enough unless we give the CAP Icicle Crash. (Ice Fang would necessitate 120ish attack, which is quite high given where the rest of its stats will need to be for CM to work and for it to have a usable speed tier.) That's not the case with Water/Steel where a STAB Waterfall/Aqua Tail (Crabhammer?) will be doing a hefty chunk and beyond that the Ground has to beware switching into the CAP in the first place since it may just use its STAB Water.

Now turning very specifically to your post, Korski, it is full of bizarre rant-y comments structured in a way that make little logical sense. I'm going to try to clear things up because it seems they aren't clear to you and you're confused how people could possibly think a better typing for the concept is better than a worse one.

First, the ground weakness on the two mons is patently different BECAUSE the Water stab scares Grounds away. Obviously the literal weakness is equivalent. But it is not unreasonable to suggest that Water/Steel fares better against Grounds than Electric/Fairy. It's in fact undebatably true.

Second, Water/Steel's toxic immunity may mean less since it can already beat Heatran, sure, but that doesn't lessen the fact whatsoever that Toxic (or indeed Toxic Spikes) will demolish Electric/Fairy's ability to run CM. Your point "against" Water/Steel somehow being duplicative and wasteful in fact totally backfires because at least it has a way. Electric/Fairy does not.

Third, When it comes to beating Clefable, the main concern comes from the DD and CM sets' ability to break Unaware. Well, in the case of CM Water/Steel you will either have Steel STAB, in which case you win, or if you run monoattacking, you can potentially have Taunt as your fourth slot, in which case you also win. This is doable when you have a spammable STAB like Scald. Taunt CM on Electric/Fairy however is a terrible idea as I've already explained neither of those STABs works whatsoever as a monoattacker. And when it comes to DD, of course having access to Steel STAB will make breaking Unaware Clef more doable. You can do it with Electric/Fairy if you insist, but it will take a bloated attack stat, meanwhile Clefable's Moonblasts will actually hurt, without the nice resistance Steel brings. If you look to the lesser used Unware mon Quagsire, again Water/Steel comes out on top for the CM sets because of Scald burns providing a much better chance at emerging victorious. Both would lose v Quagsire in the DD scenario.

Fourth, the only waters Water/Steel will conclusively lose to are Keldeo and Rotom-W. Ironically, where Scald is so unreliable for us, you assume we will somehow lose to all other Waters... most of whom have no better move to use than, wait for it, scald. Other Waters, which rely on Scald burning first, can be incredibly easy to remedy down the line in ways that, unlike Poison Heal being necessary to fix Electric/Fairy, are not overpowered. It could be as simple as Water Veil to ensure we will always burn them before they burns us... since we can't get burned.

Finally, if you're so worried about CM CAP being used as set-up bait and the opponent threatening a sweep, I'd sure as heck rather be able to stop SD Gliscor and SD Roost Scizor from setting up for free than not. Water STAB named Scald to the rescue. Although it's true Electric/Fairy stops an obvious mon or two, like Mega Altaria, it's not as though Mega Altaria is going to try to set up on Water/Steel anyway. If it has EQ it doesn't have Heal Bell for Scald burns... and if it has Heal Bell all it has is Fairy attacking which doesn't threaten CAP. Gyarados won't risk the Scald burns either. The only particularly obvious set-up threat where Electric/Fairy definitely wins and Water/Steel doesn't is Keldeo. There are a few other set up threats like Manaphy that Electric/Fairy clearly beats, but it is totally feasible to make Water/Steel beat them too. And long story short, I'm totally fine to trade Keldeo for Gliscor and MScizor.

There are exactly two viable reasons to support Electric/Fairy, in my mind. The first is the paralysis immunity, which is, admittedly, nice, though hardly necessary. Charizard-X and Mega Gyarados successfully run DD sets despite their susceptibility to Prankster T-Wave. Would they be better if they could also be immune? For sure. But are they getting along fine without it? Absolutely. The second reason is the resistance to Breloom's Mach Punch and Bisharp's Sucker Punch, though I could easily come back with Water/Steel's resistance to Lopunny's Fake Out, Azumarill's Aqua Jet, and Scizor's Bullet Punch. If for some particular reason you think the first two matter most, then by all means that's a reason. It still does not however come close to beating out all the other reasons Electric/Fairy is so inferior to Water/Steel.

The first thing I want to address is your statement that Electric/Fairy forces us to pick Poison Heal as an ability. Not trying to poll jump here (to the contrary, I'm trying to show our options will remain open), but even if we decided to address Toxic at the abilities phase, we have way more options on the table than Poison Heal, including Immunity, Magic Guard, Magic Bounce, Shed Skin, Wonder Skin, and Natural Cure. Moreover, these options (including Poison Heal) give us a good range of secondary benefits that we might actually want in order to make the sets more effective. Secondly, we don't even have to address Toxic in the abilities phase, but could instead save it for Movepool. Taunt and the required move Substitute both allow us to address status as a whole by preventing it before we're ever statused. Even if we do feel status is inevitable and CAP needs a way to get rid of it, Electric/Fairy still leaves us with options thanks to self-healing moves. While RestTalk may not be a good choice because of our subpar mono-Stabs, a self-healing move (Parabolic Charge or Draining Kiss) combined with Refresh would allow us to run Calm Mind and two-move coverage. And finally, our third option is to just never address Toxic at all. Your pointed out that Zard-X and Gyarados sweep with a paralysis susceptibility, but it's worth noting that they also sweep with a Toxic susceptibility. We could very well decide in the threats discussion that CAP's CM set is going to be trashed by Toxic, but it's DD set is going to just clean up teams before poison can bring it down (which OU has already shown us is a perfectly plausible possibility). Once again, apologies for most of this post being on later stages, but I just wanted to address the exaggerated claim that we would be forced to run Poison Heal.

Moving on, I agree with most of your post about the defensive benefits of Water/Steel, as well as the superior mono-attacking set. But I also think that in the "two viable reasons to support Electric/Fairy" you overlooked the single most important one: offensive pressure. Electric/Fairy is super effective on 22 OU mons, while Water/Steel is only super effective on 14 (not counting Zard-Y cuz Drought). Even with mediocre offensive stats, super effective STAB is still enough to wreck most Pokemon (see Rotom-W and ground types for evidence). As a result, Electric/Fairy has the ability to scare out a greater number of Pokemon, which translates to a greater number of free setup opportunities. As Ununhexium said in the OP, there are two ways for CAP to setup: have the defensive typing to boost, or have the offensive typing to force something out. Electric/Fairy's big selling point is that it scares out more Pokemon than any of the other options while retaining a good defensive typing (not as good as Water/Steel, but still good).

 

[Ignus]

I feel like some of these posts are too focused on making the CAP too generically hard to stop in both boosting sets, rather then focusing on how the types will differentiate the two sets. So, I'm going to do my best to talk about our typing with regards to how it changes what beats CAP.

In order to better understand what we want from our type, we need to understand what beats each set (or more particularly, what beats each type of boosting set) just as a general rule. As the concept states, we need to differentiate the counters between each set. Anything that beats both a dragon dance set and a calm mind set we should try to remove, and, likewise, anything that beats only one of the sets is something we should try to preserve. So lets go over what, at least generally, beats both sets.

What beats a Dragon Dancer:

• Dragon Dancer is paralyzed, and therefore loses it's speed advantage. Dragon Dancer is KOed by now faster opponent.
• DDer is out-sped by priority.
• DDer is burned and can't effectively set up.
• DDer is poisoned and slowly dies by being stalled out.

What beats a Calm Minder:

• CMer is out-sped and KOed by a high damage physical move.
• CMer is out-sped and KOed by priority. Sort of overlaps with the previous, but is occasionally slightly different.
• CMer is poisoned and slowly dies by being stalled out.
• CMer loses calm mind war to enemy pokemon because of a move like psyshock.

Between these two lists, the only things that overlap are 1. Poison, and 2. Priority. Therefore, these should be the only methods we should have our typing utterly remove from our counters. Every counter to CAP should be specific to the set it's running.
With that said, it's not really necessary to remove poison or priority completely. As long as we remove the counter from either the dragon dance set or the calm mind set, the two sets won't have overlapping counters. For example, if our calm mind set ends up being rest-talk, poison is no longer a problem for it. Now, poison counters the Dragon Dance set, but not the calm mind set. Diversifying our counters like this lets us play mind games with our opponent - Do I burn CAP and risk the calm mind setup? Do I try to wear CAP down with physical moves and get punished by a dragon dance? These are the questions we want our opponent to be asking themselves when facing CAP, and our typing should reflect that.

Why the concept makes not being immune to Burn/Paralysis a good thing
As stated before, these two types of status only really shut down a Dragon Dance set, and, more importantly, are actually SET UP OPPORTUNITIES for a calm mind set. If we are paralyzed by Thundy and get a calm mind on the same turn, we can suddenly use Thundurus as setup bait for our calm mind set. Likewise, if a Tyranitar comes in and tries to spam Crunch to kill us before we can effectively set up calm mind, and we get off a Dragon Dance, suddenly what counters a CM set won't counter a Dragon Dance set. So, basically, when one set loses to a Pokemon, the other beats it. One set's counter is another set's setup bait.
This is what the concept was originally about and what it should continue to be about. Anything that makes us immune to either of these statuses actually removes setup chances for the calm mind set, and therefore shouldn't be considered.

This is, arguably, the biggest problem with Electric/Fairy. While it does have some decent boons (that have already been mentioned several times), it feels as if many people are ignoring that the fact it is immune to paralysis is actually a BAD thing for the concept. We can't just say "being immune to paralysis is a good thing for a dragon dancer so we should have that". Because, as true as that statement is, being immune to paralysis is NOT a particularly good thing for a calm minder.


To reiterate, here's what we need our typing to do.

1. Make sure that anything that counters both a dragon dance and a calm minder is removed as a counter from either one or both sets.
2. Not HINDER any counter that could be a set up opportunity for the other set.
3. Give CAP the tools to preform well on either set.

So PLEASE, let's stop using paralysis immunity as a good reason to choose a typing. It isn't.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I feel like some of these posts are too focused on making the CAP too generically hard to stop in both boosting sets, rather then focusing on how the types will differentiate the two sets. So, I'm going to do my best to talk about our typing with regards to how it changes what beats CAP.

In order to better understand what we want from our type, we need to understand what beats each set (or more particularly, what beats each type of boosting set) just as a general rule. As the concept states, we need to differentiate the counters between each set. Anything that beats both a dragon dance set and a calm mind set we should try to remove, and, likewise, anything that beats only one of the sets is something we should try to preserve. So lets go over what, at least generally, beats both sets.

What beats a Dragon Dancer:

• Dragon Dancer is paralyzed, and therefore loses it's speed advantage. Dragon Dancer is KOed by now faster opponent.
• DDer is out-sped by priority.
• DDer is burned and can't effectively set up.
• DDer is poisoned and slowly dies by being stalled out.

What beats a Calm Minder:

• CMer is out-sped and KOed by a high damage physical move.
• CMer is out-sped and KOed by priority. Sort of overlaps with the previous, but is occasionally slightly different.
• CMer is poisoned and slowly dies by being stalled out.
• CMer loses calm mind war to enemy pokemon because of a move like psyshock.

Between these two lists, the only things that overlap are 1. Poison, and 2. Priority. Therefore, these should be the only methods we should have our typing utterly remove from our counters. Every counter to CAP should be specific to the set it's running.
With that said, it's not really necessary to remove poison or priority completely. As long as we remove the counter from either the dragon dance set or the calm mind set, the two sets won't have overlapping counters. For example, if our calm mind set ends up being rest-talk, poison is no longer a problem for it. Now, poison counters the Dragon Dance set, but not the calm mind set. Diversifying our counters like this lets us play mind games with our opponent - Do I burn CAP and risk the calm mind setup? Do I try to wear CAP down with physical moves and get punished by a dragon dance? These are the questions we want our opponent to be asking themselves when facing CAP, and our typing should reflect that.

Why the concept makes not being immune to Burn/Paralysis a good thing
As stated before, these two types of status only really shut down a Dragon Dance set, and, more importantly, are actually SET UP OPPORTUNITIES for a calm mind set. If we are paralyzed by Thundy and get a calm mind on the same turn, we can suddenly use Thundurus as setup bait for our calm mind set. Likewise, if a Tyranitar comes in and tries to spam Crunch to kill us before we can effectively set up calm mind, and we get off a Dragon Dance, suddenly what counters a CM set won't counter a Dragon Dance set. So, basically, when one set loses to a Pokemon, the other beats it. One set's counter is another set's setup bait.
This is what the concept was originally about and what it should continue to be about. Anything that makes us immune to either of these statuses actually removes setup chances for the calm mind set, and therefore shouldn't be considered.

This is, arguably, the biggest problem with Electric/Fairy. While it does have some decent boons (that have already been mentioned several times), it feels as if many people are ignoring that the fact it is immune to paralysis is actually a BAD thing for the concept. We can't just say "being immune to paralysis is a good thing for a dragon dancer so we should have that". Because, as true as that statement is, being immune to paralysis is NOT a particularly good thing for a calm minder.


To reiterate, here's what we need our typing to do.

1. Make sure that anything that counters both a dragon dance and a calm minder is removed as a counter from either one or both sets.
2. Not HINDER any counter that could be a set up opportunity for the other set.
3. Give CAP the tools to preform well on either set.

So PLEASE, let's stop using paralysis immunity as a good reason to choose a typing. It isn't.

I agree with the burn, but please tell me how a paralysis doesn't atleast hurt a Calm Mind mon (Also completely cripples if its not a Cro set)