CAP 20 CAP 20 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

jas61292

used substitute
is a Community Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
So, while I have nothing against Water Veil, which has been already discussed thoroughly, I personally would like to give some support to Water Absorb and Shield Dust. Burns are huge, and it is important that we deal with them. With that said lets take a look at what we actually want to set up on. Obviously, the list says "burns", but "burns" is not a Pokemon. Scald is prevalent in OU, and many of the Pokemon that use it can otherwise be setup bait for us if we can avoid a burn. The same cannot be said of Will-O-Wisp. Almost everything that carries Wisp has something else to potentially threaten us with. Conversely, almost everything with Wisp is probably going to be taking a risk by staying in against us, especially if it is not attacking. The big exception is, of course, Rotom-W, which is listed as something to counter the DD set.

Basically, what I am getting at is that protection from Wisp, while nice, is not really that important. It is Scald that we need to protect against, and both Water Absorb and Shield dust to that trick, while also providing some other benefits. Shield Dust specifically is nice, since it doubles up in help for switching into any Water types that may be packing ice moves. While not a major worry normally, avoiding freeze in such situations only serves to make such Pokemon more reliable set up bait for us.
 

ganj4lF

Nobody is safe from the power of science!
is a Team Rater Alumnus
I would be very careful considering Sheer Force for this CAP. It gives insane power right off the bat, which means a mixed set looks more appealing. I guess we could scale down every single attacking stat to obtain acceptable levels of power when unboosted, but you'd immediately kill the viability of any Leftovers (or many other items) sets. Is the ability to negate LO recoil worth the risk to mess up with many other options CAP may want to have? I don't think so, honestly. As many others already said, I think dealing with status, burns in particular, is much more important (and more beneficial to the concept) at the moment.
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
is a Top CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
A few out-there ability choices: Sticky Hold, Synchronize, Oblivious, and Quick Feet

Sticky Hold - I noticed a fair number of the Pokemon we can set up on are Psychic types, which could theoretically use Trick Choice Scarf to mess with ur setup. Sticky Hold prevents this, while also ensuring our Leftovers or Life Orb cannot be removed. Although this means Knock Off will be stronger against our CAP because it would always have boosted BP, we aren't weak to knock off and most of the users hate Scald Burn or could not take a faster Life Orb boosted attack.

Synchronize - While this doesn't prevent burns, it does make CAP's RestCM set extremely unique as most of the opponents that would be fishing for a Scald burn hate it themselves, though perhaps not as much as they would Toxic.

Oblivious - This ability addresses Taunt specifically.

Quick Feet - Much more niche in regards to our counters list, but this keeps Thundurus from completely stopping a DD sweep. The 25% Paralysis is still troublesome, but if paralyzed CAP is now pretty much untouchable at +1 speed by anything except priority. This incidentally also would work with the Rest set and make it very, very annoying. In fact, it's pretty quirky that nothing bulky has ever had Quick Feet as an ability to exploit this. The closest thing to "Bulky" with it currently is Ursaring at 90/75/75.
 
The big main ability I think would be the best to create a fairly unique Pokemon for mixed boosting. Prankster.

With Prankster you have priority boosting, and even bigger, potential priority recovery.

A Pokemon can be far more bulky with the ability to guarantee recovery first.

It would also give some handy niches on the Calm Mind set, being able to better handle Special Attackers by always able to have a +1 SpD right from the start sounds powerful. Plus we have a multitude of moves that Prankster can use to support a sweep, Taunt, Thunder Wave, even Psycho Shift could be used to handle status in a unique way.
 
The big main ability I think would be the best to create a fairly unique Pokemon for mixed boosting. Prankster.

With Prankster you have priority boosting, and even bigger, potential priority recovery.

A Pokemon can be far more bulky with the ability to guarantee recovery first.

It would also give some handy niches on the Calm Mind set, being able to better handle Special Attackers by always able to have a +1 SpD right from the start sounds powerful. Plus we have a multitude of moves that Prankster can use to support a sweep, Taunt, Thunder Wave, even Psycho Shift could be used to handle status in a unique way.
The issue with giving it recovery though is this: if it has the bulk to set up on revenge killers, along with the appropriate typing, why does it just not run a defensive set?

So, while I have nothing against Water Veil, which has been already discussed thoroughly, I personally would like to give some support to Water Absorb and Shield Dust. Burns are huge, and it is important that we deal with them. With that said lets take a look at what we actually want to set up on. Obviously, the list says "burns", but "burns" is not a Pokemon. Scald is prevalent in OU, and many of the Pokemon that use it can otherwise be setup bait for us if we can avoid a burn. The same cannot be said of Will-O-Wisp. Almost everything that carries Wisp has something else to potentially threaten us with. Conversely, almost everything with Wisp is probably going to be taking a risk by staying in against us, especially if it is not attacking. The big exception is, of course, Rotom-W, which is listed as something to counter the DD set.

Basically, what I am getting at is that protection from Wisp, while nice, is not really that important. It is Scald that we need to protect against, and both Water Absorb and Shield dust to that trick, while also providing some other benefits. Shield Dust specifically is nice, since it doubles up in help for switching into any Water types that may be packing ice moves. While not a major worry normally, avoiding freeze in such situations only serves to make such Pokemon more reliable set up bait for us.
Both Stallbreaker Mew and Mega Sableye would be able to cripple Dragon Dance sets, both of which it would not have much of a problem with if it was running Water Veil. In addition, our CAP also needs to be able to set up on Heatran, which has access to both Will-O-Wisp and Lava Plume; while Heatran does learn Earth Power, not all of them carry it, and having the security of Water Veil is always handy when trying to force out Heatran or set up on sets that lack Earth Power.
 
Discussion's picking up and there are some great ideas being presented. I actually like Albacore's argument for Sheer Force, so I'm going to put my support behind that. I recognize some people's concern that Sheer Force may opt for a mixed set is valid, but as long as we don't go overboard with the stat distribution, that shouldn't be a problem.

I like the idea of Prankster as an ability, but I have a few issues with it. Firstly, it would run the risk of making the best set a non-boosting set, which is problematic. The second problem is that it's so heavily skewed towards CM that it's ridiculous. It basically turns CAP into a CroCune with priority everything. That's absurd! Part of the appeal of the DD set is supposed to be that it's better against faster opponents, but if the CM set outspeeds everything anyway, what's the point of DD?

Also now that ability discussion has begun in earnest, can we ban Simple from discussion? Simply put, having each of its boosting moves bump stats by 4 is ridiculous, especially in a manner as relevant as the way Dragon Dance and Calm Mind do.
 
I've not seen very much discussion on this ability, but I very much like Unaware. Unaware is an excellent ability because it gives our CAP something that other Calm Mind Pokemon do note have: a way to win Calm Mind wars much easier. The only Pokemon with this ability is Keldeo, thanks to Secret Sword. One could argue that Psychic-types carrying Psyshock will win the Calm Mind war, but I'm not following that. The opposing Pokemon you're going to face is likely going to be a Pscychic-type itself, honestly, and most Calm Mind Pokemon carry physical investment. Anyways, back to Unaware. Unaware does great things for our CAP on both sides. Let's start with Calm Mind. Calm Mind is great with Unaware because it ignores opposing Calm Mind's Special Defense increases. Another thing I have not seen mentioned is how great it is in stopping other things itself. Swords Dance Pokemon who can break through and set up on it are no longer able to do, thus making the CAP a great check all. Next, we have the Dragon Dance version. This allows CAP to set up on other set up sweepers, which is what I think gives it a niche. I'm not sure how this mechanic works, so I ask: does Unaware ignore opposing Speed boosts? I wouldn't think so, but if it did that would be pretty sweet. Anyways, Dragon Dance appreciates the ability to set up on opposing set up sweepers, and the Calm Mind set appreciates breaking through other Calm Mind Pokemon. I feel as if Unaware is our *best* option and helps fulfill each side of the Pokemon very well.

Another ability I would think would be pretty awesome is Sheer Force. As Albacore has mentioned, it's great for the Dragon Dance set, but I feel it falls a bit short for the Calm Mind set. Scald being unable to be used for its full effect is what really kills it for me, and that's why I don't think it's the best force. I'd prefer the primary ability to tailor to both of them at once, because I feel this makes our CAP less powerful. For example, if we used Sheer Force for the primary ability, then we used something like say Synchronize (just saw Deck Knight's suggestion for this, thought it was interesting), then we're custom-tailoring for the CAP. Don't really like that idea! Sheer Force does have its merits. It could allow for a more offensive Calm Mind approach with a powerful, no drawbacks Scald, and you can use the Dragon Dance set with much more ease. No Life Orb recoil is especially nice. For offensive Calm Mind, Calm Mind | Scald | Flash Cannon | filler is actually a very interesting set because both of its STAB moves are powered up by Sheer Force.

Both options have their merit, but I feel Unaware fits our current CAP better.
 

Cretacerus

Survivor
is a Top Artistis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Reactions Contest Winner
Water Veil- Finding reliable and consistent set-up opportunities is very significant for our concept, and an immunity to burn to complement our useful resistances goes a long way towards achieving this. Being able attempt a set-up in front of defensive Water- and Fire-types without much to fear is great for both sets, and otherwise problematic Pokemon such as (Mega-)Sableye would be a lot easier to handle.
While Water Absorb does cover defensive Water-types arguably better, I’m not sure how beneficial a complete water immunity would be for our concept, and actually find it rather distracting due to the health regaining part relying mostly on us switching in. Not to mention that it does nothing to help us against other users of burns.
Shield Dust on the other hand sounds very interesting, though attacking move effects besides burns seem to be rather insignificant in OU and on our threatlist. This raises the question whether those situational benefits are relevant enough to forgo the immunity to Will-O-Wisp on Rotom-W, Talonflame and Sableye.

Sticky Hold – Besides Scarf Keldeo, Trick-Scarf Rotom is probably the most prevalent full stop to both our sets even after a boost, and can easily be fit onto most teams as a counter to CAP. The ability stage would be our only option to avoid this, and I would certainly deem the threat as relevant enough to consider addressing it with our ability slot.
Sticky Hold’s usefulness is also not limited to Rotom-W alone: it has been mentioned already in the threats discussion that Psychic types could serve as reasonable set-up opportunities for our CAP when going by typing, so preventing them from potentially rendering us useless with Trick would be very beneficial for our concept.

Prankster – This ability would benefit almost entirely the CM set, and that in a very significant way. Priority healing is a huge advantage for any defensive Pokémon, which would allow CAP to function effectively even with relatively low defenses. We definitely have to take into account the almost guaranteed SpD boost as well when going for this ability, which allows us to set up on special attackers that we couldn’t take on without Calm Mind. This would give the CM set additional incentive to be used over a bulky DD set, especially if CAP were to get taunt, and would also allow us to avoid Alfalfa’s concern of CAP forgoing its boosting move completely to become a bulky attacker.
Prankster would also give the CM set the opportunity to employ niche moves such as Magnet Rise to escape specific checks, adding to its unpredictability.
Overall, I think Prankster would be a decent option for the CM set, though I wish it would do a bit more for our intended threatlist.

Sheer Force – I’m currently very opposed to this ability due to the minor benefits and the significant risks I see it giving the concept. While the lack of Life Orb recoil is very nice for the DD set after losing a turn to set-up, the increase of attacking power shouldn’t be an argument for this ability. We are more than likely to aim for the exact power we need in the Stats stage, so there is little reason other than aesthetics to spend our versatile Ability slot on that. If I’m not wrong this is the exact reason why Pure Power and the like are not up for discussion.
Also, since we don’t want the CM set to rely on Sheer Force to do damage, we have to assume that it will get a reasonable SpA stat (~90) to work with, which is extremely potent with the Sheer Force boost and can easily encourage unintended mixed sets. For reference, Nidoking was a capable wallbreaker even in the higher tiers with 85 SpA/Spe, and while we don’t have the same coverage and base power moves, STAB Scald combined with a potential STAB Flash Cannon might be all that is needed. I’m not really willing to take the risk of such a distraction for the minor reward of not having Life Orb recoil.
In the end, Sheer Force might not even be perfect for the DD set, since the lower base attack stat would result in notably weaker and limited coverage options, supposedly a main advantage DD has over the CM set. The only physical flying attack with additional effects would be Bounce, meaning we would have to opt for either Brave Bird (recoil + Life Orb) or a less effective coverage type (Psychic?) to get past at least some of the checks on the threatlist which we can't hit with our STABs.
 
Last edited:
The way I'm looking at it right now is this:

Water Veil is pretty much the safest option for the process. The potential side effects are the fewest with this ability. On the other hand, is a burn immunity the most efficient way to do what we're trying to do in this stage? We handle Will-O-Wisp users unlike most other abilities that have been thrown around, but it doesn't really get us past Suicune. That said, Will-O-Wisp is a more prevalent threat in the metagame than Suicune is.

Shield Dust is largely a worse Water Veil in this case. The most notable boon I can think of (other than the Scald thing) is actually that it stops the Special Attack drops from Moonblast. Maybe I'm biased in that way because I've screwed people over in a Calm Mind war like that, but still, stopping a 30% proc is pretty significant whether it's a burn or a stat drop. Though, I suppose Unaware Clefable wouldn't care about all that...

Shed Skin I'm torn on. It's a decent option if we want to help Calm Mind more than Dragon Dance with burns, since Calm Mind has more time on its hands. I'm not exactly sure of what people think about burns on Dragon Dance specifically because competition from other Dragon Dance users doesn't seem like a compelling reason on its own to give Dragon Dance reliable protection from burns.

If we're going to pick Sheer Force, we have to do it now rather than in the secondary ability stage, because by then the stats - and the reasoning behind them - will have already been decided. For those who worry about Sheer Force affecting Scald and negating the Life Orb recoil, Tough Claws gives the same boost to the same important physical moves.

Unaware is an interesting option because it's probably our best shot at breaking past Suicune (Pressure lets it wait out just about everything else) and Psyshock users (negates boosts to Psyshock). However, it's probably also the option with the most potential side effects.
 
May I suggest Magic Bounce? It repels Will-o-Wisps and Toxics that might cripple CAP 20, and it bounces back Taunts that would otherwise prevent it from setting up. In the same vein, perhaps Oblivious might work for it, to prevent being Taunted.
 
Magic Bounce would work pretty amazingly, helping keep CAP safe from Taunts, Phazing, and WoW/TWave. I can see that being something worth discussing alongside Water Veil, Water Absorb, and Sheer Force.
 

Dogfish44

You can call me Jiggly
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributor
Moderator
Magic Bounce is also obscenely good in general - to a point where I´d find it concerningly powerful and potentially damaging to the concept. As it stands, I´m liiking Water Veil and Oblivious for the DD and CM sets respectively, for reasons echoed repeatedly beforehand.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
a few things

Hell No to Magic Bounce / Unaware. These abilities are so powerful that they create additional sets on their own ; I would consider using this CAP on any defensive team with Restalk + 2 STABs if it had either of those abilities (I assume it's going to have passable to good defenses, yeah?). Sure, setup sets would be good, but you risk creating other sets simply due to the sheer power of those abilities making other sets viable. (And ninja'd by dogfish, Dx)


Water Absorb gives us a source of recovery and free switch-ins on top of scald-blocking. I consider this to be pretty excellent; both of these sets want to use their bulk, and Water Absorb can prevent you from getting worn down too much for that bulk to matter (scald would do...say, 10%, but it heals 25%, a 35% swing). It also lets the Dragon Dance set match up well with Calm Mind Slowbro and Suicune, and more importantly potentially lets the Calm Mind set 1v1 them and win effortlessly ( a lot of people seem to think the fourth move on Calm Mind is Recover and it'll run its dual STAB in which case it needs 2 crits to come out on top. If it can fit a move SE against these though then Water Absorb becomes even better.) I'd like to note Water Absorb would make this set a really great rain stopper, even better than it already is.

Dry Skin is just a better version of Water Absorb, be nice to have, i guess we'll just decide if it makes the CAP too good or not.

Storm Drain seems to bias the CAP towards special sets, not a fan. What it CAN do though, is immediately place more pressure to switch in the right counter without necessarily revealing anything. Because it confers a boost without revealing the boosting move, it makes it a lot riskier to switch into some pivot, since it could be blazed by a +1 scald or flash cannon or w/e.

Water Veil isn't something i'm a huge fan of; it does let us set up on Talonflame, but Talonflame isn't even close to a revenge killer, the DD set almost certainly outspeeds and KOes, so what does it do, sac itself to burn the CM set? Helps for Sableye too, i will say. An OK option but I prefer the regeneration Water Absorb can provide.

If Shield Dust is popular, I prefer Water Veil to the max. Shadow Ball drops are unfortunate but we aren't that weak to Gengar; Moonblast drops like Capefeather is talking about shouldn't be a problem for a Steel-type with Steel STAB at his disposal, right? Crunch drops suck too but just attack hard mangh. I really prefer the ability to laugh at Will-o-Wisp and even set up on Lava Plume users (and Fire Punch Jirachi, thats right, im old school like this).

Sheer Force is a great way to confer stronkness. Helps a lot against...everything, and lets us wield an LO without cutting into bulk. it doesn't really help against scalding waters, though it could let us run SubDD 2 attacks viably.

btw here's a calc

0 SpA (Base 100 SpA Steel-type) Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 156-186 (39.5 - 47.2%)

unaware clefable could definitely be a problem, despite our SE STAB (it'd need CM to really hurt us but that's a definite possibility).
 
At the moment, I'm only sold on Unaware, Oblivious, and Pressure.

I don't like Sheer Force as an option. I think it would undermine the goal of relying on boosts to achieve a win (starting off of 90+ Offensive stats barring Speed against a few targets). Zero recoil from LO after boosts sounds great, I think there should be some balance to the boosts CAP gains in battle.

I do like the ability Magic Bounce, though. For the most part it should allow CAP20 to boost without much consequence (bounced Taunts, hazard prevention, etc.) with the exception of all-out attacker opponents.
The ability doesn't increase the CAP's boosting priority like Prankster, nor does it increase power outside of boosts like Sheer Force does.
But again, the problem is that it only encourages more immediate damage to CAP, as that is really the only method of an opponent preventing it from boosting.
And let's be real: you can't Bounce back SE hits like Mach Punch (lol 2HKO at most).
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
is a Top CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I think I'll do a little summary of some of the threats and the best directions for ability.

Threat:

Ability: Water Veil or others (see below).

OK, so please excuse the bit of exaggeration, but this threat seems to be exaggerated all on its own. One of the viable CM sets will surely be a Rest set, maybe Resttalk, and that set doesn't fear burns at all. The Dragon Dance set obviously hates burns, but Scald is a 30% chance that Mega Gyarados happily takes, and other abilities mentioned (Water Absorb, Shield Dust, Shed Skin) already address that issue with other, sometimes superior effects.
[Briefly:
Water Absorb is discussed specifically below.
Shield Dust is basically flinch immunity, freeze immunity, and Clear Body wrapped into one.
Bulky Shed Skin is what made Revenankh a nightmare for those who remember way back when].

Talonflame is not going to stay in on the CM set merely to burn it, it's going to flee with U-turn or a predicted switch. That leaves Rotom-W and Heatran, the former of which has a better offensive option and the latter who also takes a massive risk staying in.

Threat: Trickscarf setup targets / item removal
Ability: Sticky Hold

I already talked about the benefits here, but what Sticky Hold really does is eliminate niche counters from Pokemon CAP 20 would otherwise have no difficulty setting up on. It also preserves Life Orb or Leftovers on either set, and while this does boost Knock Off damage on the second use. many prominent Knock Off users will not want to risk that second use. Bisharp doesn't want to entertain a Scald burn so it may attempt Sucker Punch, Landorus is either fleeing or using the stronger Earthquake to follow-up. Sticky Hold leaves Azumarill is the last holdout on using Knock Off twice, which may not be all that desirable, but there's a second ability for that. Sticky Hold is unique in its effect and can't be replicated by a viable move on a stat-up sweeper (Recycle? Please)

Threat: Bulky Water setup targets
Ability: Water Absorb

This ability addresses Scald in a way that Water Veil does not, by also capitalizing it on switch-ins to remove hazard damage taken on the switch. Considering how Spammable the move is, it's often the only move used for coverage on a setup sweeper. Unfortunately this won't work against Mega Gyarados with a Balloon because of Mold Breaker, but it does make the setup opportunity on other Bulky Waters that much more viable. I would strongly recommend Water Absorb over Storm Drain or Dry Skin, because Storm Drain biases much more towards the CM set and Dry Skin turns neutrality to fire into a psuedo-weakness, not something we want in a match against Talonflame or Heatran.

Threat: Calm Mind Wars
Ability: Unaware or Pressure

Unaware: When this was brought up I worried about it a little, but unlike Mega Sableye, CAP 20's weaknesses include very common Ground, Fighting, and Electric-type attacks, so I'm not worried about those Pokemon being unable to break it after a few Calm Minds. There are also a select few Pokemon in OU that use Bulk Up, including a niche bulky set on Talonflame that DD CAP 20 would prefer to chew through before getting burned if possible.

Pressure: Pressure CAP would work the same way that Suicune does it now. In a sense it's familiar territory, so the real question would be why to use it over Suicune when Suicune is almost certainly going to have more overall bulk?

I know other abilities have been discussed, but these abilities seem to provide the best basis for primary ability. The idea of a stat-up sweeper is to have an ability that allows it to stay in and address threats immediately in front of it, which is why as powerful as Natural Cure is, it isn't on here because we do not want our sweeper to switch out.
 
It depends on what we want to have our mon switch into, I kinda like Storm Drain as we can run it with DD, 2 physical moves and 1 special move. With a called Scald on a teammate, we can switch in and claim the boost, or running it with another protecting ability (edit out this part if it's poll-jumping) we can leave opponents unsure.
 
I think I'll do a little summary of some of the threats and the best directions for ability.

Threat:

Ability: Water Veil or others (see below).

OK, so please excuse the bit of exaggeration, but this threat seems to be exaggerated all on its own. One of the viable CM sets will surely be a Rest set, maybe Resttalk, and that set doesn't fear burns at all. The Dragon Dance set obviously hates burns, but Scald is a 30% chance that Mega Gyarados happily takes, and other abilities mentioned (Water Absorb, Shield Dust, Shed Skin) already address that issue with other, sometimes superior effects.
[Briefly:
Water Absorb is discussed specifically below.
Shield Dust is basically flinch immunity, freeze immunity, and Clear Body wrapped into one.
Bulky Shed Skin is what made Revenankh a nightmare for those who remember way back when].

Talonflame is not going to stay in on the CM set merely to burn it, it's going to flee with U-turn or a predicted switch. That leaves Rotom-W and Heatran, the former of which has a better offensive option and the latter who also takes a massive risk staying in.
This part is just wrong. First of all am I really supposed to take you seriously when you post a picture of Mr. Burns from The Simpsons to substitute for the words burns? Are you trolling? Second, none of those abilities except for Shed Skin are completely inferior to Water Veil simply because of the fact that they aren't guaranteed to prevent burns (We can still be burned by Rotom-W with Water Absorb and Shield Dust, and Shed Skin is heavily luck based (I don't like to use the metagame for this type of things, but that Shed Skin stuff is now in the past, nobody uses Rest Revenankh in the CAP meta anymore), and we really should not be forced to use a RestTalk set to beat these bulky waters, its kinda anti-concept imo. And your saying that because a Water type Dragon Dance user with 155 attack, has pretty big amount of set up opportunites, and sometimes uses Substitute on its moveset for god sake can take a risk burn chance from scald means that that the same thing applies to everything? That does not add up at all, we probably won't have substitute and not as many chances to set up and our attack won't be as massive, so we won't feel as sake as Mega Gyarados when it comes to setting up Dragon Dances, and while this doesn't really address the whole scald thing, we are still beaten quite easily by Rotom-W, something that should not happen
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
is a Top CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
This part is just wrong. First of all am I really supposed to take you seriously when you post a picture of Mr. Burns from The Simpsons to substitute for the words burns? Are you trolling? Second, none of those abilities except for Shed Skin are completely inferior to Water Veil simply because of the fact that they aren't guaranteed to prevent burns (We can still be burned by Rotom-W with Water Absorb and Shield Dust, and Shed Skin is heavily luck based (I don't like to use the metagame for this type of things, but that Shed Skin stuff is now in the past, nobody uses Rest Revenankh in the CAP meta anymore), and we really should not be forced to use a RestTalk set to beat these bulky waters, its kinda anti-concept imo. And your saying that because a Water type Dragon Dance user with 155 attack, has pretty big amount of set up opportunites, and sometimes uses Substitute on its moveset for god sake can take a risk burn chance from scald means that that the same thing applies to everything? That does not add up at all, we probably won't have substitute and not as many chances to set up and our attack won't be as massive, so we won't feel as sake as Mega Gyarados when it comes to setting up Dragon Dances, and while this doesn't really address the whole scald thing, we are still beaten quite easily by Rotom-W, something that should not happen
A few points:

1. The thread started out as a referendum on burns being a distinct sort of threat. Forgive me for introducing a little levity, clearly you interpreted the stand-in for the word "Burns" though. I can remove it if you wish.

2. I didn't say any ability in a category was inferior or superior. Actually I said they accomplished the same or similar task, and were sometimes better at different things than Water Veil.

3. Gyarados has not one but two distinct sets (Sub and RestTalk) that shrug off or anticipate burns, so while it was inartful to say it would switch in (which IRC has pounced on) the idea Gyarados is fearful of ever switching in is also not true. It certainly does revenge against Scald abusers by coming in after to Sub. I grant that RestTalk is in minimal usage in 1825 (both moves hover around 7% in March), but Sub is pushing 60% usage in those same stats. Therefore SubGyara is the majority of sets, and given how we're constructing CAP 20 to be, if not nearly as offensive as Gyara, bulk has been a repeated discussion factor, and CAP has a great defensive typing, so I would say yes it will have its share of set-up opportunities - with Water Veil or with another ability.

4. There's nothing anti-concept about a RestTalk CM Set. The concept is: "A sweeper with several boosting options that result in completely different checks and counters. While each set should be viable in its own right, the unpredictability of this Pokemon should make it much better than any one set alone."

So inherently this is a Pokemon with *not less than two* distinct sets. If RestTalk CM is viable, while there is a separate CM set like CM Taunt (hypothetically), or SubCM and each of these has subtly different counters on that spectrum (and totally different from DD) we're actually fulfilling the concept, not distracting from it.
 

trc

mellow
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
i'll finalise it tomorrow but here is the current slate:

Water Veil
Oblivious
Water Absorb
Shield Dust

i don't know if i'm supposed to be impartial but it's pretty clear that there's really only one good choice. no ability fits this cap better than one of the ones here and all the other ones are mostly mediocre for the project, but this is just the case with this particular cap. but of course, you don't know which one im talking about, of course
 
Tinted Lens - It can use this to forgo coverage moves, and run a support move like refresh. It helps beat any of the bulky water types and benefits both sets with attacking prowess.

Heatproof - Could be useful for the Calm Mind set by reducing damage from scald burns and adding a fire resistance.

Contrary - lol

 

Cretacerus

Survivor
is a Top Artistis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Reactions Contest Winner
I do think that burn protection is a good path to take with our ability, since it not only gives us a noticeable advantage against an entire group of threats on our list, but also turns many of them into additional set-up opportunities which our concept holds so dearly. Out of the abilities proposed, Aqua Veil strikes me as the most suitable in terms of dealing with our threatlist, covering relevant Pokemon such as Mega Sableye, Talonflame and Rotom Wash a lot better then the other options, while avoiding unnecessary distractions to our role as set-up sweeper, which something like the healing from Aqua Absorb might cause.

However, I believe there is one other ability that can match Aqua Veil in terms of usefulness for our concept, and is worth looking closer into: Sticky Hold. Just like Aqua Veil it gives us reliable set-up opportunities against a specific group of Pokemon, while also making the great threat that is Scarf Rotom-W a lot more manageable. While the protection from Trick is probably a bit more situational than a burn immunity, both work against different threats in pretty much the same way by easing our set-up turn, making Sticky Hold the only ability I would perhaps consider using over Aqua Veil.

EDIT: Seeing that Scarf Rotom isn't really as relevant as I would have thought, along with Trick users being rather rare in general, I'd like to now throw my full support behind Aqua Veil^^
 
Last edited:
I just wanted to point out that we seem to have missed a potential ability in Levitate. This would allow the cap to set up on choiced ground types and turn lando t into setup bait. This leaves scald able to beat dragon dance but possibly not calm mind, provided we have a way to offset the burn damage. This expands our very limited list of Pokemon we can set up on without removing too many Pokemon from our checks and counters list. It also prevents us from having to use an otherwise underwhelming ability to find setup opportunities, therefore helping to prevent either being outclassed or having inflated stats to balance a nearly useless ability. It also helps diversify our counters by having burn users beat dragon dance, and having mold breaker Pokemon like excadrill and haxorus out speed and beat calm mind.
 
That does sound like a pretty good idea, since removing the ground weakness would help immensely vs one of the most popular pokemon currently around. I like Levitate.
 
I just wanted to point out that we seem to have missed a potential ability in Levitate.
Wouldn't it mess up with the check and counters list we agreed upon? That would remove every Ground type bar Mold Breaker Excadrill and everything relying on Ground moves to check us from out threat list. And beside that, it has this "too good" vibe about it. Levitate is just too dumbly useful on anything with a Ground weakness.
 
Wouldn't it mess up with the check and counters list we agreed upon? That would remove every Ground type bar Mold Breaker Excadrill and everything relying on Ground moves to check us from out threat list. And beside that, it has this "too good" vibe about it. Levitate is just too dumbly useful on anything with a Ground weakness.
I think that at the moment, with all the ground moves around, without levitate we would have almost no chance to set up at all unless we sack a teammate. As for the checks and counters argument, we could not discuss levitate without poll jumping before, and we will still have plenty of checks and counters left, such as electric and fighting types and Pokemon with that coverage. If lando t remains as a check to this cap, then almost every ordinary on team will already be able to beat us.

EDIT: also, it would be nice if someone with more experience could clarify on whether this was the right time to bring up levitate.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top