CAP 21 CAP 21 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[The Avalanches]

Might throw my hat into this ring. Poison/Fighting is my suggestion for this CAP. The typing currently belongs to both Toxicroak and Croagunk, Pokemon that both check a unique array of threats in their respective tiers. My justification for calling this a bad typing is that it has three of the least desirable weakness a Pokemon can have; Flying, Ground, and Psychic (4). On the other hand, however, it resists quite a few somewhat potent types; Dark, Fighting, Bug, Grass, Poison and Rock. With the right attributes, this could allow this Pokemon to check a variety of threats thanks to the good coverage its typing gets offensively, while it loses to pretty much most of the Ground, Psychic, and Flying-types in the tier, of which there are heaps. (Lando-T, Garchomp, Latios, Latias, Talonflame, Tornadus, Pinsir, Pigeot, Hawlucha, Alakazam, Medicham, Hippowdon, Excadrill) off the top of my head.

Although Toxicroak has a niche in OU, I feel the full potential of its typing isn't being realized, as it has fairly poor stats and no recovery. However, it does have an enormous movepool, a great defensive ability, and plentiful priority options. Therefore, I believe finding a niche for a Poison/Fighting CAP could be found without difficulty.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I have to agree with Deck Knight's post more than any. Poison/Rock looks like the perfect typing for this project, as it can hard-counter Talonflame as well as sponge powerful STAB from Pokemon such as Mega Charizard X and Mega Altaria. What makes a utility counter useful is that it can handle enough common OU Pokemon and force them out, and Poison/Rock does exactly that against Talonflame, defensive Mega Altaria, Heatran, Clefable, and Tornadus-T. With the right Ability, it could also cover one or more of its weaknesses. Plus, the Rock typing can get a Special Defense boost from Sandstorm active, which can let it sponge hits from Special attackers such as Mega Manectric. A Poison/Rock typing also absorbs Toxic Spikes and could reasonably expect to set Toxic Spikes itself if we want to go down that path. I definitely think Poison/Rock would have to patch up some weaknesses using moves or Abilities if we choose it. A utility counter is not going to go far if it's weak to both Water and Ground and can't tank Burns or abuse Leftovers the way Heatran does. Poison/Rock runs a massive risk of being overshadowed by Heatran and we'd have to give our CAP a pretty important niche for it to be both superior to Heatran and worth a team's Mega slot.

I don't really consider Dark/Rock or really Dark/Anything to be a "Typing Underdog" because STAB Knock Off is just so amazing in the current metagame. It's turned Weavile into an offensive powerhouse, so I'd want to avoid Dark unless it was paired with a really awful typing.

 

[NumberCruncher]

I don't really consider Dark/Rock or really Dark/Anything to be a "Typing Underdog" because STAB Knock Off is just so amazing in the current metagame. It's turned Weavile into an offensive powerhouse, so I'd want to avoid Dark unless it was paired with a really awful typing.

Dark is absurdly awful Special typing and that could be an interesting way to approach the topic, but I don't think a Dark/Rock special attacker is even possible with the thoroughly lackluster movepool that would entail.

I feel a similar thing is keeping Fire/Dark from being a potential typing. Dark Pulse is an insanely mediocre Shadow Ball, and Flare Blitz isn't sustainable on a utility mon. Thus Fire/Dark mons don't really want to be Physical or Special attackers. Likewise, they can't go purely defensive because their weakness and resistances don't stack properly. It has three common resistances (Fire, Steel, and Dark) to three common weaknesses (Water, Ground, Fighting). It's Ghost resistance does remarkably little, since everything outside of CM Sableye that runs Ghost moves also carries Fighting moves. Psychic immunity is nice, but that tends to either get used by Water pokemon or pokemon with Fighting moves, which is bad if you're looking to go purely defensive. It could be nice against Latias, but I'm not sure you want to be taking Draco Meteor's from that. Even among the really common resistances, you need to be wary whether Heatran has an offensive gimmick, whether Scizor has Superpower, whether Metagross has been sufficiently slowed by Hammer Arm, whether Charizard is X or Y and if Y whether it has Focus Blast, the list goes on. In fact, the only things it looks like this typing is 100% sure to beat are Bisharp, Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Serperior, and Weavile provided we make it lightweight. That means the mon has to have some degree of offense, as well as be able to attack from both the Physical and Special side, and at that point it has too high a stat total. even with the +100 for Mega evolving, there's only so many stats you can give a pokemon, and this mon wants to be a mixed attacking utility mon with enough speed to actually answer threats. It's just not viable to make this mon without making it absurd.

 

[Yiam]

Alright everyone, hold your horses because I think I win.
Since it's supposed to be a typing Underdog, I think we should go with the underdog of the suggestions posted since HeaLnDeaL's last post. Ice/Steel. There simply is no Ice/Steel pokémon and the potential is... interesting at the least.
Ice/Steel is a horrible typing, but at the same time, it checks a whole lot of OU threats especially if given good coverage, stats or defensive move pool. It's really bad, but also really good at the same time.
Once again, I'll post its strengths and weaknesses.
Offensive:
2x Fairy, Ice, Rock, Dragon, Flying, Grass, Ground
1/2x Fire, Steel, Water

Defensive:
4x Fire, Fight
2x Ground
1/2x Bug, Dragon, Fairy, Flying, Grass, Ice, Normal, Psychic
0x Poison

All it needs is a good movepool to counter a wider arrange of types, but in my opinion it doesn't have to be an all-powerful pokémon that can counter literally any possible threat. It should of course have a good team to back it up.
What I is an excellent counter against a whole lot of dangers in the OU. Keldeo would mean serious trouble though :p

 

[Project_Mars]

Surprised no one has brought up Grass/Rock yet. It gets Super-Effective hits on an interesting array of types, namely Fire, Ice, Flying, and Water and can check some fairly common pokemon. Defensively is probably where it has some issues: it has weaknesses to some common coverage moves (Ice, Fighting, and Bug) and doesn't resist any of the types it can check so it may have some trouble coming in.

 

[dsm77773]

I don't think Ice/anything is the way to go. We all know Ice is essentially the worst defensive typing in the game, however, at the same time, it's one of the best offensive typings. So unless we give CAP 21 pathetic offensive stats (to a point it's too passive) or poor coverage options (although Ice itself hits very important types super-effectively: Dragon, Ground and Flying) the CAP could turn out being something more offensive than what we're trying to build. Not that this will happen, it could happen.
I think Poison/anything is more or less what we're looking for. Considered a pathetic typing in previous gens, one should never forget that Poison-types carry very important resistances to Fairy and Fighting, as well as an immunity to poison (more importantly, Toxic, which is a major headache on a lot of walls and tanks). Removing Toxic Spikes (if grounded, of course) is just the icing on the cake.
And of course, I like Grass/Flying and Bug/Fighting, those were my suggestions. I already developed Bug/Fighting a bit, so now it's Flying/Grass time!
Flying/Grass is a type that doesn't look very appealing. Such a mon would be cursed by a x4 Ice weakness, but also is weak to Fire, Rock (this means is weak to Stealth Rock), Flying, and Poison. On the flip side, nice resistances to Water and Fighting and a important immunity to Ground (as well as a STAB type that hits Water- and Ground-types for super-effective damage), and a quadruple resistance to Grass could make it a universal stop to most Grass-types, especially if they need Hidden Power to harm it (they'd be forced to carry Ice and lose to threats like Scizor in Mega Venusaur's case, for example), and a lot of Grass-types have bad movepools. Plus, this typing makes a CAP immune to Spikes, Toxic Spikes and Sticky Web, as well as powder moves such as Breloom's Spore, and Leech Seed (which, again, is a major headache on walls and tanks).
Of course, both Bug/Fighting and Grass/Flying lose badly to Talonflame, but after all, we're looking for an undervalued typing.

 

[Alfalfa]

I don't think Ice/anything is the way to go. We all know Ice is essentially the worst defensive typing in the game, however, at the same time, it's one of the best offensive typings. So unless we give CAP 21 pathetic offensive stats (to a point it's too passive) or poor coverage options (although Ice itself hits very important types super-effectively: Dragon, Ground and Flying) the CAP could turn out being something more offensive than what we're trying to build. Not that this will happen, it could happen.
I think Poison/anything is more or less what we're looking for. Considered a pathetic typing in previous gens, one should never forget that Poison-types carry very important resistances to Fairy and Fighting, as well as an immunity to poison (more importantly, Toxic, which is a major headache on a lot of walls and tanks). Removing Toxic Spikes (if grounded, of course) is just the icing on the cake.
And of course, I like Grass/Flying and Bug/Fighting, those were my suggestions. I already developed Bug/Fighting a bit, so now it's Flying/Grass time!
Flying/Grass is a type that doesn't look very appealing. Such a mon would be cursed by a x4 Ice weakness, but also is weak to Fire, Rock (this means is weak to Stealth Rock), Flying, and Poison. On the flip side, nice resistances to Water and Fighting and a important immunity to Ground (as well as a STAB type that hits Water- and Ground-types for super-effective damage), and a quadruple resistance to Grass could make it a universal stop to most Grass-types, especially if they need Hidden Power to harm it (they'd be forced to carry Ice and lose to threats like Scizor in Mega Venusaur's case, for example), and a lot of Grass-types have bad movepools. Plus, this typing makes a CAP immune to Spikes, Toxic Spikes and Sticky Web, as well as powder moves such as Breloom's Spore, and Leech Seed (which, again, is a major headache on walls and tanks).
Of course, both Bug/Fighting and Grass/Flying lose badly to Talonflame, but after all, we're looking for an undervalued typing.

I mean, Ice / Steel is still an extremely risky typing to begin with. We don't necessarily need to give this CAP enough offensive coverage to be as dangerous of an offensive threat as you are afraid it will be. Keep in mind that Fire and Fighting-type attacks are quite common, both of which Ice / Steel is 4x weak to. It fits the definition of our concept perfectly: we are trying to make a CAP with an undervalued typing that can utilize such typing to its entire list of positives and negatives, and Ice / Steel is not that difficult to integrate this concept into.

 

[Cretacerus]

I think that Bug/Fighting could be quite interesting to explore, since it provides a unique set of resistances which finds good use in the metagame despite the typing's common weaknesses to Fire, Fairy and Flying.

It is one of the few typing combinations which can truly take advantage of the Bug typing's useful Ground and Fighting resistance, by covering up its weakness to Rock type attacks which are commonly run alongside those attacks. The Fighting type also provides a valuable resistance to Dark type attacks, giving CAP the rare ability to easily switch into many Knock Off users especially when running its Mega Stone. These resistances to Fighting, Ground, Dark and Bug would allow it to take on various physical threats such as Landorus-T, Bisharp, Scizor and Mega Lopunny relatively safely, and potentially provide momentum with access to STAB U-Turn without actually having to worry about a Stealth Rock weakness.

While Heracross already uncovered a lot of the offensive potential of this typing combination, it doesn't really utilize all those distinct advantages of the typing mentioned above, giving us a rather incomplete view on the Bug/Fighting type. Mega Heracross has a hard time keeping up with the metagame despite its huge attack stat, amazing movepool and ability, and its respectable defenses, since the abundance of Fire, Fairy and Flying types - especially Talonflame - can easily exploit its weaknesses and shortcomings. However, I believe CAP can actually make this typing shine in the role of a utility counter, taking advantage of its unique defensive and supportive attributes.

 

[jas61292]

There have definitely been some good suggestions so far, but I just want to say one thing with regards to typings and the concept. This concept is really about using a typing that is "undervalued." The concept itself specifically talks about types that are viewed badly due to never being used to their full potential. Obviously that points to types that exist on Pokemon already, but I am not going to say we should necessarily limit ourselves to such typings. What I am going to say though is that no matter what type you support, I want to see arguments as to why the type is undervalued. Or, in otherwords, what makes this typing not really just a good typing. Some types might be obvious, but I would like to see such arguments anyways.

For example, Fire/Rock has two glaring double weaknesses, on top of the only Pokemon with the typing being absolutely awful. Wile it has some upsides, such as two great offensive STABs and a burn immunity, when a person looks at this typing, their mind will definitely go to those major downsides before they even stop to think of what is good. Note: I am not specifically arguing for Fire/Rock here. It is merely an example

This kind of argument is especially important for types that do not have existing Pokemon. Rock/Poison, for example, is a type that has gotten a good amount of discussion, but it pretty much all has been on what it does well. Of course we do want a type that can do some things well, but for this concept, the type we choose should be undervalued. Again, I am not saying specifically here that Rock/Poison is a bad type for this concept, merely that if people like a type, they really need to be able to explain why it would be undervalued. Glaring weaknesses or the lack of obvious advantages are easy ways to show this, but whatever you can think of can work. Just make sure you can think of something, as if you can't, its probably not a type we want to be using.

 

[Alfalfa]

Surprised no one has brought up Grass/Rock yet. It gets Super-Effective hits on an interesting array of types, namely Fire, Ice, Flying, and Water and can check some fairly common pokemon. Defensively is probably where it has some issues: it has weaknesses to some common coverage moves (Ice, Fighting, and Bug) and doesn't resist any of the types it can check so it may have some trouble coming in.

Grass / Rock isn't a bad typing though. Offensively, it is solid if it is paired with a coverage move with a Ground, Fire, or Fighting typing, and defensively, you are neutral to most typings, except for Bug, Ice, and Fighting. We are talking about typings like Fire / Rock, Rock / Poison, or Ice / Steel that seem like exploitable typings defensively without considering what they have to offer, such as great dual offensive STABs (Fire / Rock), checking and pressuring top threats (Rock / Poison), and a large palette of resistances with a decent STAB to work with offensively (Ice / Steel).

 

[NumberCruncher]

Grass / Rock isn't a bad typing though. Offensively, it is solid if it is paired with a coverage move with a Ground, Fire, or Fighting typing, and defensively, you are neutral to most typings, except for Bug, Ice, and Fighting. We are talking about typings like Fire / Rock, Rock / Poison, or Ice / Steel that seem like exploitable typings defensively without considering what they have to offer, such as great dual offensive STABs (Fire / Rock), checking and pressuring top threats (Rock / Poison), and a large palette of resistances with a decent STAB to work with offensively (Ice / Steel).

Also, even assuming that weren't the case, that's awful typing for a utility mon. Four insanely common weaknesses (Alf forgot the Steel weakness) with no relevant resistances makes it insanely awful for utility.

 

[Camden]

There have definitely been some good suggestions so far, but I just want to say one thing with regards to typings and the concept. This concept is really about using a typing that is "undervalued." The concept itself specifically talks about types that are viewed badly due to never being used to their full potential. Obviously that points to types that exist on Pokemon already, but I am not going to say we should necessarily limit ourselves to such typings. What I am going to say though is that no matter what type you support, I want to see arguments as to why the type is undervalued. Or, in otherwords, what makes this typing not really just a good typing. Some types might be obvious, but I would like to see such arguments anyways.

For example, Fire/Rock has two glaring double weaknesses, on top of the only Pokemon with the typing being absolutely awful. Wile it has some upsides, such as two great offensive STABs and a burn immunity, when a person looks at this typing, their mind will definitely go to those major downsides before they even stop to think of what is good. Note: I am not specifically arguing for Fire/Rock here. It is merely an example

This kind of argument is especially important for types that do not have existing Pokemon. Rock/Poison, for example, is a type that has gotten a good amount of discussion, but it pretty much all has been on what it does well. Of course we do want a type that can do some things well, but for this concept, the type we choose should be undervalued. Again, I am not saying specifically here that Rock/Poison is a bad type for this concept, merely that if people like a type, they really need to be able to explain why it would be undervalued. Glaring weaknesses or the lack of obvious advantages are easy ways to show this, but whatever you can think of can work. Just make sure you can think of something, as if you can't, its probably not a type we want to be using.

It doesn't take a genius to see when a typing is good and when a typing sucks. Yea, we know Fire/Rock is bad because we've had almost two decades to determine that, but just from examining the metagame available now, and even just looking at the typing itself, it's easy to see how Rock/Poison is terrible. Yes, the typing has 6 resistances, although only three of those are worth mentioning (Flying, Fire, Fairy). Also, those 4 types it's weak to are some of the more abundant attacking types in the tier: Water, Ground, Steel, and Psychic. Steel-types are everywhere, and you have mons such as Keldeo, Excadrill, Hoopa, Landorus, Garchomp, zam, Hippo, I guess Azumarill, and the list goes on of things that can take advantage of that typing.

So why not just go with Fire/Rock? Personally I don't think that typing is worth working with. It's so bad of a typing that unless you give it beyond ridiculous stats it won't be a good mon. We should be picking a type that under the proper circumstances can work, and while I wasn't really too big a fan of Poison/Rock at first....there isn't much else to work with.

 

[Korski]

To me, "undervalued" implies that the typing we choose should actually have value to begin with, so I'm not super on board with trying to come up with the worst typing we can think of like Ice / Steel or Fire / Rock just to see if we can make it viable in OU with 100 extra stat points. Looking at the concept and the sorts of answers being sought out here, one typing popped into my mind right away. So, I'd like to actually suggest a typing that is not bad, if that's okay.

Grass / Fairy

4x: Poison
2x: Fire, Flying, Ice, Steel
1x: Bug, Fairy, Ghost, Normal, Psychic, Rock
1/2x: Dark, Electric, Fighting, Grass, Ground, Water
0x: Dragon

Non-concept-specific commentary

• Strengths: each and every one of its resistances allows the CAP to pivot into many frustrating attacks for its team: Dark (Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Pursuit), Dragon (Draco Meteor, Outrage), Electric (Volt Switch), Fighting (Secret Sword, High Jump Kick, Mach Punch to a lesser extent), Grass (Leech Seed, Spore, Leaf Storm), Ground (Earth Power, Earthquake), and Water (Scald, Hydro Pump).
• Immediate threat to S-rank Manaphy and Sableye(-M); A+ rank Altaria(-M), Azumarill, Diancie(-M), Garchomp, Hippowdon, Hoopa Unbound, Keldeo, Lopunny-M, Latios, Weavile; A rank Gyarados-M, Kyurem-B, Latias, Slowbro(-M), Tyranitar; A- rank Medicham(-M), Politoed, Rotom-W, Starmie
• Weaknesses: Fire, Poison, and Steel-types are the only Pokemon that resist both STABs, and all three of them would be able to hit the CAP with super-effective STABs of their own. IMO this is desirable because it sets clear parameters for what the CAP is and is not threatened by based entirely on the strengths and weaknesses of individual typing matchups, which I believe is something we're shooting for. I should mention all three of these types share a common weakness in Ground (Fire is also plausible in the case of Ferrothorn, Scizor, Skarmory, etc.), which should make for relatively easy synergy when teambuilding (most teams are equipped to handle these types naturally).
• Flying, Ice, and Steel weaknesses make the CAP susceptible to priority, especially from Talonflame, Metagross, and Scizor, who don't fear either STAB.
• Near-perfect Garchomp counter, probably perfect Breloom counter
• A Mega that resists Knock Off is a huge reason to choose it over other Mega options. Same goes for Scald if it's a special attacker.
• CAP + Heatran would be an incredible core, resisting all types but Ghost between them and able to switch into each others' most dangerous counters such as Keldeo, Rotom-W, Garchomp, Talonflame, Scizor, and Ferrothorn.

Grass / Fairy to me is a very undervalued typing precisely because it looks good on paper. It has very focused and useful resistances without being a catch-all defensive typing like Steel or Water, and it has offensive STAB coverage that targets an array of troublesome archetypes (bulky Grounds, bulky Waters, fast Fighting-types, Dragons with Ground coverage, Mega Sableye) and meshes well with a variety of coverage types. The problem is that our only example of a competitive Pokemon with this typing is Whimsicott, who appears to have been designed to downplay the advantages of its typing as much as possible, making it a perfect case study for this concept.

Whimsicott fails to utilize its unique typing because of its terrible stats and its Prankster ability. With 60 / 85 / 75 defenses, Whimsicott can't even take resisted hits, requiring full EV investment to achieve only mediocre defensive results. Meanwhile, its 67 / 77 / 116 offenses are some of the least threatening stats amongst all fully-evolved Pokemon. Prankster is pretty much the only reason to use Whimsicott, especially in OU, as it lacks the stats it needs to take advantage of its typing (this is exactly the sort of deficiency we hope to remedy with Mega Evolution's +100 BST).

The really cool thing about looking at Whimsicott through the lens of this concept is that it actually changed typing in the last generational shift. By the end of Gen. V, Whimsicott, with its crap mono-Grass typing and one-trick-pony Prankster shenanigans, was buried down in RU. Then, like magic, Whimsicott picked up a secondary Fairy typing in Gen. VI and jumped up to UU (#22 in usage in that tier), developing actual, viable offensive sets (some of which opt for Infiltrator over Prankster even) with the same disgustingly bad stats it had before (keep in mind that the current UU metagame, in terms of power, more closely resembles the Gen. V OU that kicked it out than it does the Gen. V UU that...also kicked it out). In short, adding the Fairy typing not only increased the value of Whimsicott's typing, it decreased the value of one of the best abilities in the game, Prankster, and changed a lot about the way people use this Pokemon. This shows me that Grass / Fairy as a typing has enormous value, in theory, in lower tiers. I think we should try and apply this typing to an OU-worthy CAP to see what sort of value we can extract in a more powerful tier.

 

[AkyroTheVoid]

I just want to throw in this idea for a type combo seeing as no one else has mentioned it: FIRE/ICE.

Reasoning:

Defensively, the Fire/Ice type combo has 3 weaknesses(water, fighting, ground) and 1 double weakness (rock). All four types are commonly used in competitive battles. Although it has 3 resistances (grass, bug, fairy) and 1 double resistance (ice), only 2 of them are commonly used (ice and fairy).
This makes this type combo quite weak defensively.

However, offensively, a Fire and Ice Pokemon would have access to both fire and ice moves and gain STAB when using them. Less than 140 out of 720 pokemon resist both fire and ice moves. out of 140 of these pokemon only 9 are OU and Uber Pokemon (Slowbro, Starmie, Azumarill, Blaziken, Kyogre, Manaphy, Keldeo, Greninja, Rotom wash). Also, there are over 320 pokemon who are weak to either fire or ice moves. This makes these two types quite powerful offensively.

Overall, when looking at typing alone, fire and ice seems weak defensively (and it is) but offensively, this type combo can be quite strong. I think this type combo fits the description of a "type underdog". It seems weak, but uses it to it's advantage.

That's just my two cents on this.

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

So yeah, I've been lurking off-screen, and I like some of the types that have been suggested. But I find myself in agreement with Korski, in that some of us are just purposely coming up with some the worst typings we can think of and trying to force OU viability out of them. However, I'd like to suggest this:

Bug/Ground:

Resistances: Electric (Immunity), Fighting, Poison, Ground
Weaknesses: Fire, Water, Ice, Flying

Types Hit SE Between STABs: Fire, Electric, Grass, Poison, Psychic, Rock, Dark, Steel
Pokemon That Resist Both STABs: OU Flying-types, Gengar, Heracross

Bug pairs surprisingly well with Ground, hitting Grass-types and the Lati@s twins that Levitate over Ground attacks, while Ground repays the favor by dealing with the Fire-, Poison- and Steel-types that resist Bug attacks. Outside of the glaringly obvious Flying-types in OU, Gengar and Heracross are the only two Pokemon that resist both STABs, the former of which only does so thanks entirely to Levitate. Alakazam, Bisharp, Celebi, Mega Charizard X, Crawdaunt, Mega Diancie, Excadrill, Mega Gyarados, Heatran, Unbound Hoopa, Jirachi, Klefki, the Lati@s twins, Magnezone, Mega Manectric, Mega Metagross, Mew, Raikou, Serperior, Slowbro, Starmie, Terrakion, (Mega) Tyranitar, Victini and Weavile are all hit super effectively by Bug & Ground, which is a sizeable portion of OU.

However, the fatal flaw that Bug/Ground has is that all four of its weaknesses see use in OU in one way or another. Fire & Ice in particular are potent as coverage, whereas bulky Waters are staples on many successful teams, and FlySpam is more prevalent in XY than it ever was thanks to the birth of Talonflame. With Flying being the only weakness that can't be patched up with an ability as well as the one typing that resists both STABs, it's clear that CAP21 will want nothing to do with Flying-types should its typing become Bug/Ground. However, between the few useful resistances that it has and the powerful offensive STAB combination, Bug/Ground can make for a good undervalued typing for a offensively inclined utilitymon, especially considering its natural access to SR and possibly Web.

 

[Minnakht]

I'm just going to drop a vote on one of the partial Rock typings. You mention an utility counter, and I think being able to take out some Pokemon (like Talonflame and Weavile, okay) with a move coming off weak offensive stats BUT using a STAB SE move is being utility while not being just good offensively in general.

That's my two coins.

 

[YellowAdminSilver]

I know this doesn't contribute much to the topic at hand, but I think people should stop using moves as justification for their types (i.e. "we should make CAP a Bug/Rock/Grass type because that way it'll have access to Sticky Web/Stealth Rock/Powder moves"). First of all, this should be strictly a typing discussion, since discussing typing and moves at the same time just derails the whole thing. Second, CAP has never based itself on flavor considerations when it comes to movepool. See: an Electric-type with no Volt Switch, a Water-type with Drill Peck and Wild Charge, a Flying-type with Rapid Spin and no Defog, two Fire-types with Stealth Rock and no Rock/Ground/Steel typing, and so on.

So, when we talk about a Grass typing, for example, I think we should stick to talking about its Water, Ground and Electric resists and its immunities to Leech Seed and powder moves rather than "since it's a Grass-type, we can give it Spore".

 

[Alfalfa]

I just want to throw in this idea for a type combo seeing as no one else has mentioned it: FIRE/ICE.

Reasoning:

Defensively, the Fire/Ice type combo has 3 weaknesses(water, fighting, ground) and 1 double weakness (rock). All four types are commonly used in competitive battles. Although it has 3 resistances (grass, bug, fairy) and 1 double resistance (ice), only 2 of them are commonly used (ice and fairy).
This makes this type combo quite weak defensively.

However, offensively, a Fire and Ice Pokemon would have access to both fire and ice moves and gain STAB when using them. Less than 140 out of 720 pokemon resist both fire and ice moves. out of 140 of these pokemon only 9 are OU and Uber Pokemon (Slowbro, Starmie, Azumarill, Blaziken, Kyogre, Manaphy, Keldeo, Greninja, Rotom wash). Also, there are over 320 pokemon who are weak to either fire or ice moves. This makes these two types quite powerful offensively.

Overall, when looking at typing alone, fire and ice seems weak defensively (and it is) but offensively, this type combo can be quite strong. I think this type combo fits the description of a "type underdog". It seems weak, but uses it to it's advantage.

That's just my two cents on this.

Fire / Ice would work if we chose to go down the revenge killer route, but instead, we opted for a utility counter, which Fire / Ice is awful for. It has too many exploitable weaknesses for a Pokemon that is supposed to be a utility counter.

 

[TheMCGamer13]

I've decided to throw my hat into the ring with a suggestion.

My suggestion is Bug/Poison. So far, Mega Beedrill is the only viable user of this typing, but it is adored more for its offensive capability than its defensive capability (dem 65/40/80 defenses tho). Bug/Poison has four weaknesses: Flying, Rock, Fire, and Psychic, and five resistances: Fighting(4x), Poison, Bug, Grass(4x), and Fairy. Fairy and Fighting are excellent resistances with both of them being great attacking types in OU. The typing also sports a nifty immunity to Toxic. However, Bug/Poison has crippling weaknesses to Flying, Fire, and Rock which makes any Pokemon with this typing birdspam bait.

Bug/Poison is OK on the offensive side with ~17 OU-relevant Pokemon resisting its STAB combination. However, when counting in coverage, many of these resistances go away; notable ones being Water, Ground, Ghost, and Dark. Bug and Poison also get access to interesting moves. Bug types get Attack Order, X-Scissor, U-turn, Megahorn, and Quiver Dance. Poison types get Poison Jab, Cross Poison, Sludge Wave and Bomb, Gunk Shot, Coil, and Toxic.

Overall, Bug/Poison is an unappreciated type because of its horrid users. It could more easily be appreciated with an OU-viable user that can take advantage of its defensive and offensive strengths.

 

[Imanalt]

Yeah this is starting to wind down some. I've been kind of disappointed by the low number of type submissions that have been actually well... undervalued... But we've definitely gotten some. It is hard to balance getting a not good type but still one that can do what we want, and I would have liked to see a little more discussion in regards to what threats actually get beaten by types. So I'm going to go ahead and throw out a 24 hour warning on this thread, and ask that in our last day we see more types that are neither truly unsalvageable nor overly good suggested. I'd also like to see a little more discussion on the existing types of concretely what threats types can potentially switch into, to give us a better idea of how the type fits into the meta rather than how good it is in a vacuum. So pretty much if you think a type is good, tell me what threats it actually can take hits from (as a utility counter needs to do).

 

[Mova]

Korski's suggestion of Grass/Fairy actually makes sense, even if Fairy is quite a powerful typing by itself. The combination has nice resistances (and an immunity) seven different types of common coverage, which Whimsicott doesn't appreciate because of its lackluster bulk and access to Prankster. At least it's weak to Fire and Ice to make up for its resistances, which are also common.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I want to warn strongly against using Ice as either of our types. We are building a utility counter, which implies that our Pokemon will have to be able to switch into and neutralize numerous Pokemon. As a result, we need to focus on our defensive typing since it's much easier to make up for poor STABs than a poor defensive typing. Ice gives us one resistance and four extra weaknesses. There's no type you can just attach Ice to and have it help the Pokemon out at all defensively. In fact, there's a strong case to be made that adding Ice to any type automatically makes it a poor defensive typing. CAP21 needs to have an "undervalued" typing, not a unusable one. And Ice/Anything just isn't going to let it serve as a utility counter at all.

 

[escarlata]

I actually think that Fire/Ghost could work.

This typing defensively is by no means bad, having 5 weaknesses and a whooping 9 resistances. What really held it back is the fact that all 5 of those weaknesses are pretty much the top 5 worst typings to be weak to, having some of the most spammable moves that ever existed. Those 9 resistances are also really relevant actually. But again, weakness to all 3 of Scald, Knock Off and Stealth Rock is terrible, which is part of the reasons why Chandelure just isn't good.

Imo the fact that CAP 21 would be a mega actually makes combinations weak to Knock Off rather viable, since the move does lose a fair portion of its power, such that you don't need ridiculous bulk to deal with it even if you are weak to it. On top of that, 3 of its other weaknesses can actually be anulled by abilities too.

Fire/Psychic would be another variant with less resistances.

 

[LightningLord2]

A bad defensive typing such as Ice or Bug is perfectly fine for a utility counter if it can give itself switch-in opportunities through something else (most likely, an ability). Not to mention that having a weak defensive typing may not be a problem if the thing our CAP is supposed to switch into is a wall or a similar defensive threat.

But to throw my idea in the ring, I'd say Fire/Electric

The typing shows potential in Rotom-H, having 8 resistances and 3 weaknesses (in Rotom-H's case, 2 weaknesses) and covers Steel and Water, two very common types in the meta. It should be noted that the typing still has rather offensive orientation, as it's immune to Paralysis and Burns, making it unaffected by common stops to sweepers. The typing does provide STAB on Discharge and Lava Plume, combined with Toxic being on virtually everything, makes opportunity for a utility counter focused on status spreading.

It is weak to Stealth Rock, Scald and Earthquake, though.

 

[Karoshi]

The core concept of this CAP is to use types that are underutilized both in the meta and have under developed origins. This is why I am suggesting Bug/Ghost. 4 resists (Grass, Ground, Poison, Bug), 2 immunity (Fighting, Normal) and 5 weaknesses (Fire, Flying, Rock, Ghost, Dark) isn't the worst, plus resisting two of the most commonly used physical attack types is always a plus. In addition, the type combination has fairly good neutral coverage with only 33 pokemon resist both and Lopunny is the only one commonly found in OU. Lastly, not only are both types underutilized themselves (With Scizor, Gengar and Sableye representing all the bug or ghost types in the tier), but the type itself can only be found on a Pokemon that redefines gimmick; Shedninja. I personally think that would be a good choice.