• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

CAP 21 CAP 21 - Part 4 - Mega Ability Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Welcome to CAP 21's Primary Ability Discussion! Here, we'll decide our Pokemon's Mega Ability. The last steps in the process were the Threats Discussion and the Primary Ability Discussion, so make sure to read up these for the relevant threats and to see the logic behind why our Primary Ability was chosen. The Abilities Leader is DetroitLolcat, so after he makes an initial post the discussion here will start.

We sort of recently (okay, not very recently) updated our rules about abilities; you can read about them here. In summary:
  • Custom abilities are banned
  • There are ability banlists for the different stages of ability discussion
  • Flavor abilities do not have any place in this thread. Do not bring up flavor reasoning.
The following abilities are banned from this discussion:

Air Lock
Bad Dreams
Color Change
Defeatist
Forecast
Illusion
Imposter
Moody
Multitype
Sand Veil
Shadow Tag
Slow Start
Snow Cloak
Teravolt
Truant
Turboblaze
Victory Star
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode


Big Pecks
Friend Guard
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Pickup
Run Away
Telepathy

CAP21 so far:

Typing:
Rock/Poison
Base Primary Ability: Regenerator

Leadership Team:

jas61292 - Topic Leader
imanalt - Typing Leader
DetroitLolcat (MichiganLolcat get wrecked by State)- Abilities Leader
sparktrain (aka nerd)- Stats Leader
HeaLnDeaL- Movepool Leader

Concept:
Name: Typing Underdog

General Description: A Pokémon which utilizes an undervalued typing to its full potential, by playing towards both its strengths and weaknesses.

Justification: Each typing possesses a unique set of characteristics, causing all of them to perform very differently in various aspects of battle. However, not every typing has been granted the opportunity to display this potential, being forced into suboptimal roles by virtue of stats, ability and movepool, and therefore often being labelled as “bad”.
This concept aims to do a detailed analysis on the primary function of such a typing along with its potentially unexplored capabilities, by creating a Pokémon that that emphasizes the typing’s most prominent traits and utilizes them effectively.
This approach will not only allow us to widen our understanding on the unique niche and preferred playstyle of the typing, but will also give us additional insight on the mechanics that lead to success and failure of the typing when comparing CAP to the wielders in the lower tiers.

Questions to be answered:
  • What are the most important traits the Pokémon gains from the chosen typing, both positive and negative?
  • Is quality or quantity of weaknesses/resistances/immunities more relevant to the chosen typing? What does this mean for the way it is played?
  • How significant is the niche provided by the typing in OU? Are there any striking flaws in the typing that can’t be played around and prevent the Pokémon from performing reliably?
  • How reliant is the typing on stats, ability and movepool in order to succeed in OU?
  • Are the unique characteristics granted by the typing enough to set the Pokemon apart, or does it face strong competition for its role from Pokémon of other types?
  • Is there any distinct playstyle that suits the chosen typing the best? Or can the same typing be utilized in an entirely different approach to similar success?
  • How important is a type’s versatility for its overall success?
  • Is a single Pokémon capable of portraying most relevant aspects of the entire type?
 
It's time for the primary part of the Abilities stage: the Mega Ability. I liked how the Primary Ability thread went, so I'm going to open this discussion the same way. Looking at our Threats Discussion, we still need to threaten Water-type Pokemon. Right now, our typing isn't conducive to doing so and our Primary Ability doesn't really help us there either. But that doesn't mean that our Mega Ability has to target Water-type Pokemon, as that's a weakness that can be targeted later on in the CAP. I'm going to begin the discussion with the same question I began the Primary Ability discussion with

1. What do we want our Mega Ability to accomplish? Should it be patching a weakness, enhancing a strength, and/or putting us in line with our Threats list?

I'm also perfectly fine with people suggesting Abilities early on, but don't make this thread just an Ability list dump. If you're going to suggest an Ability, make sure it has justification within confines of the above question. Let's go boys!
 
1. What do we want our Mega Ability to accomplish? Should it be patching a weakness, enhancing a strength, and/or putting us in line with our Threats list?

In my opinion, we shouldn't even give our Mega a ability that patches up our weaknesses, because the same problem with us giving our pre-mega an ability like Water Absorb or Levitate, being incredibly anti-concept. Although, I think something that can help with our threat list or boost the strengths of our typing is going to be a good idea. If we have an amazing pre-mega ability like Regenerator, then we are going to need a reason to have us Mega Evolve. An ability that can help us deal with certain threats or one that can help us boost the strengths of our typing does suit that criteria. So I would say that the best way to go with is ability is one that can emphasize a strength of our typing or help us try to deal with threats (But not something that directly patches our weakness) is the best route.
 
1. What do we want our Mega Ability to accomplish? Should it be patching a weakness, enhancing a strength, and/or putting us in line with our Threats list?

I'm thinking since we have an ability that helps us defensively, I think that we would have an ability that helps us offensively. On that line, I thought of 3 abilities that would help up. They are Sheer Force and Compound Eyes. Sheer Force is the 1st ability, which helps up power up our Poison STAB and other effective coverage moves that have secondary effects like Fire Blast (if we have it). Coumpound Eyes is the 2nd and final ability, helping up with our Rock STABs, which usually have low accuracy, and maybe Gunk Shot (again, if we have it). It can also help with our low accuracy moves.
 
Do we want to continue pursuing our desire to threaten Water-types? We want the CAP to play to its typing's strengths and weaknesses, so I am uncertain why we would continue pursuing such. However, I agree with Da Pizza Man; our mega CAP needs a strong incentive to Mega Evolve when it has such a good base ability in Regenerator. Something like Sand Stream or another ability that would bolster the CAP enough to consider Mega usage.
 
One of the abilities I think would be good that we discussed in the last thread is Rattled.

Why Rattled?

With a primary ability of Regenerator, we can safely assume that CAP is going to have at least 34% HP on switchin (barring hazards), more than enough to tank an un-STAB resisted hit like U-turn. Lets say we are facing Talonflame that has just KO'd an Ally - its options are to use Flare Blitz or Brave Bird, which we resist, do a blind switch, or U-turn. If we Mega-Evolve that turn, Rattled is activated and a Pokemon Talonflame would pivot to is now facing a +1 Speed CAP, which then outspeeds the would-be counter. In future encounters, we don't get the Regenerator benefit but we can switch into U-turn with (presumably) enhanced Defense and incur the same benefit.

After Mega Evolution, CAP could of course easily switch into Knock Off and the rarer Shadow Ball as well, but Regenerator is a good enough primary ability that I think people would Mega-Evolve to Rattled with that kind of timing in mind, instead of just instinctively.
 
My preference for the Mega Ability is Compoundeyes.

As there's a lot of preference for a physical CAP, our most likely STABs are going to be Gunk Shot and Stone Edge. Compoundeyes would boost their accuracy to 100%, making them reliable. It also lets our CAP use coverage moves such as Cross Chop if we are so inclined.

Mod Edit: Deleted part of this post in response to poll jumping / making competitively unsound arguments.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
So seeing as it says about how we want to deal with threats such as keldeo and manaphy, and yet we want to stay away from straight up getting ride or weaknesses, as that would be anti-concept, there seems to be a few possible ways to go.

One option could be Unaware, as it would ignore the boosts from mana, and it would also allow for us to deal with SD talon very well, CM keld wouldnt be as good against us, assuming we can live through scald enough to deal with it. Things like Mega Slowbro, while threatening us greatly, would take damage normally from our attacks, and not do more after it sets up CMs. In addition to that, it allows us to check things like DD alt and CM clef better after they set up both taking hits better, and dealing hits through the SpD buffs. Plus it would let us not die to a BD'd Azu's jet and be able to deal with it if we are faster, which isnt asking much.

Another possible ability would be Sand Stream, this allows for us to take special hits better, like from keld and mana, without completely ridding ourselves of the weakness. But this does still leave us weak to tail glow mana and cm keld, but if they arent set up, they could potentially be dealt with. Sand Stream would also allow for the CAP to be a great teammate for the likes of Drill, which greatly appreciates sand to sweep, however i dont personally believe this to be the best option for what we want to accomplish, it is still a good one.

this is all i feel like doing rn, so possibly expect more, or dont, w/e

Final Note, Deck Knight the only talon that really runs U-turn is banded, and if it just killed something, its not gonna be able to u-turn out on us as its locked in, so its not really doing much with rattled there
 
Anyhoo, I'm throwing my support behind Sand Stream. I was very against having it for the base form ability because the advantages to having it as the mega ability are so great. It can double switch into Mega-Charizard-Y, mega evolve, and set up its sand and get rid of the sun. It's a sort of "surprise sandstorm." It also "enhances its strength" to take special moves, while providing chip damage to non Rock, Ground, and Steel types. Unlike its base form, it can set up sand after it mega evolves.
On my phone so a shorter post, but wanted to get my thoughts in.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
1. What do we want our Mega Ability to accomplish? Should it be patching a weakness, enhancing a strength, and/or putting us in line with our Threats list?

Given that our primary ability has set us up to be the sort of Pokemon that comes in cheaply and gets in some damage before it runs away, our Mega Ability should probably be able to take advantage of the mon we came in on. In that regard, Arena Trap is a very tempting ability. It forces some of the mons we want to counter to take their dues, while it does nothing against some of the other mons we want to take down. As an example, we're better off keeping Regenerator against Talon and Charizard-Y, but to get rid of Clefable, Chansey, and Volcarona, we can Mega-evolve to force them to take their punishment.
 
I think Sand Stream would be a good ability to go for if we want to further threaten Water types that can punish us otherwise. It might be overkill if we have a large Special Defense, but it fits the concept rather well; One of Rock's strengths is the Sandstorm boost, and Sand Stream lets us abuse that. Plus, it gives us a very good chance to check/counter even more Pokemon, such as weaker special attackers and Char-Y.
 
I believe the goal of the Mega ability should be to allow the CAP to beat the things it's supposed to threaten. At this point, I think an offensive ability would be a little more help than a defensive one; while the goal is to be a tank, it'd probably be a little easier to threaten things offensively than defensively given the typing, and the base form already has a great defensive ability in Regenerator anyway.

To that end, there's one ability that keeps popping into my head that hasn't been mentioned yet: Adaptability.

The CAP already has the potential to have some high-powered STAB moves to throw around, and quite a few of the things it wants to threaten are rather bulky. With the Adaptability boost, it'd have a much easier time keeping those things from switching in or attempting to use it as setup bait (particularly where Manaphy is concerned).

The downside is that the boost would also make it hit the things we want it to be threatened by harder and there's also the risk it might wind up filling in some other role other than tank depending on the stats it winds up with. However, looking at the threats list, I don't believe Adaptability would really remove anything from the list of things we want it to be threatened by or drastically reduce its list of checks unless it winds up with bloated offensive stats.

On the defensive side of things, there's the boring option of simply keeping Regenerator. It'd still help keep the CAP around for longer, especially with the lack of Leftovers recovery. If anything, it'd be even more helpful under the presumption that the CAP would get boosts to its defensive stats while mega evolved.

Some comments on other proposed abilities I like:

I liked Sand Stream for the primary ability, and I still like it now if we're insistent on going on the defensive route. Removing opposing weather makes taking on the likes of Charizard Y an easier task, and the special defense boost not only takes advantage of the typing but makes it easier to switch in on special moves (including Water moves). The fact that it also nullifies Leftovers recovery is a nifty little bonus. If anything, it'd be even more useful now since the CAP would have it permanently after mega evolving.

Enough things we want to threaten can set up that I feel Unaware has the potential to be really helpful. Ignoring opposing setup is nice as the CAP would be able to take more hits from setup sweepers and hit opposing Pokemon that boosted a defense harder all with one ability.

CompoundEyes seems a bit more like a convenience than something that'd really help the CAP do its job. However, being able to land a STAB move on a switch in would be really helpful, and I already mentioned the potential for the CAP to get some high-powered STAB moves to take advantage of this.

I'm not sure what to think of Rattled. On one hand, taking advantage of U-turn is nice and it'd probably pair up well with Regenerator. On the other hand, it just doesn't feel consistent enough to be useful and probably not worth giving up Regenerator for (especially considering that the CAP would want to switch in on U-turn, which it wouldn't be able to do until it mega evolved).
 
With regenerator being the amazing ability that it is for base form that rewards switching, I believe that abilities that strongly encourage staying in are suitable incentive to Mega.

Biggest offender in this category would be Speed Boost or Moxie, though Storm Drain, Sap Sipper and Lightning Rod also encourage staying in.

A possible tactic with Regenerator Mega evolving into Speed Boost or Moxie would imply pivoting around with Regenerator and typing, and when the opponent is weakened, you can Mega evolve and clean up with your improved stats and snowballing ability.
 
1. What do we want our Mega Ability to accomplish? Should it be patching a weakness, enhancing a strength, and/or putting us in line with our Threats list?

Our Primary ability is very good at allowing us to switch in and out in spite of our weak typing - aka it patches a weakness - so I think we should use this ability as a method to Enhance a Strength.

To that end, it's not a long stretch to say that the strongest Rock and Poison STAB options are inaccurate (Stone Edge + Gunk Shot). One of the methods that came up on IRC to boost these moves was CompoundEyes. Not only is it well in line with our concept (It plays very neatly to the strengths of the types), it allows CAP21 to be reliable at whatever it ends up doing (Rather than having to rely on moves such as Poison Jab and Power Gem, or play games with the RNG).

Other things that came up on IRC included Super Luck (Cross Poison + Stone Edge have high crit rates), which sparked a conversation which lasted for not long until someone pointed out that both moves only reached +2 Crit, which was only a 50% crit rate, not 100%.
 
1. What do we want our Mega Ability to accomplish? Should it be patching a weakness, enhancing a strength, and/or putting us in line with our Threats list?

Our Mega Ability should define how this Pokemon is played, which is why we need a reliable ability that puts us in line with our Threats list while simultaneously having the perk of Enhancing a Strength. This is why I am suggesting Rock Head. Rock Head will obviously allow us to have a more powerful STAB move of Head Smash instead Stone Edge to make this CAP a noticeable threat, but the main reason behind me suggesting it is that it also gives us the ability to use a decent physical electric move, Wild Charge or Volt Tackle, that isn't exclusive to Legendaries without having the drawback of having recoil. This is important since we still have no real way of threatening Water types and the only guaranteed way to do so without giving an immunity/resistance is to give it a move that's super effective against them. The problem with that is that Water only has two weaknesses, one of which allows up to threaten ground types (a type that's suppose to be our hardest counter) and Thunder Punch's 75 base power can be underwhelming a lot of the times. This is especially relevant when facing Bulky Waters that spread burns casually with Scald. It doesn't hurt that both Talonflame and Charizard-Y are weak to it, making it that much less appealing for either of them to switch in on us.

I also still support Sand Stream as all the points in the previous discussion still apply.
 
one of which allows up to threaten ground types (a type that's suppose to be our hardest counter)

Actually going to make a point here - Grass Coverage will not make us beat Ground Types. They will still have the 4x SE STAB, whilst Excadrill is hit neutral, Garchomp is hit neutral, Gliscor is hit neutral, and Lando is hit neutral. I think the only relevant mon we "beat" is Hippowdon? And even that's shaky since Hippowdon is damned bulky.
 
1. What do we want our Mega Ability to accomplish? Should it be patching a weakness, enhancing a strength, and/or putting us in line with our Threats list?

We didn't patch a weakness before, we more enhanced the CAP's sustainability (a middle way if you will). But I think this time, enhancing the strength(s) of the typing is the best way to go, following the Threat List carefully (this shouldn't even be a separate goal, but the goal in and of itself). I also want to touch on something that has irritated me several times (in this thread alone even): threatening Water-types does NOT require hitting them super-effectively. Besides the fact that most Water-types take neutral or better damage from at least 1 of our STABs, there is also the unknown factor of WHAT the CAP's stats would look like. So it's too early to want to talk about hitting things super effectively.

Speaking of STABs, I think Adaptability is a pretty good ability to look at. It gives more leeway in the stats, meaning that we can still maintain the defensive capabilities of this CAP without hurting it offensively. As I've noted, our STABs also hit most Water-types (and several Psychic-types) at least neutrally, meaning that an Adaptability-boosted hit will surely sting them enough that they cannot carelessly switch in. This maximizes the efficiency of our decent neutral coverage, without doing much against the types we want to tank our hits (Steel and Ground). It's better than Sheer Force, in that it guarantees a boost to both of our STABs (rather than just Rock Slide and Ancient Power), and we can't know what coverage moves this CAP will have.

Sand Stream is still as good an option as before. It isn't so reliant on timing as it would have been as a base form ability, so there's a bonus in that regard. It becomes a great support/utility for certain teams just by switching in, and the boost to its Special Defense also gives more leeway in stats. Most everything has been said about this in the base form ability discussion and even in this discussion

Compound Eyes is certainly a notable ability, boosting the reliability of some of the STAB options (and some support options like Toxic possibly). This only matters if we are definitely going the physical route though, which is why it's not particularly a great option, nor a bad option.

Keeping Regenerator is an option too, and not a bad one. Great longevity is never a bad thing, and it maximizes the typings ability to check Fire and Flying types (along with making sure we can continue to check Weavile). At the same time, it covers the annoying problem of a Mega Pokemon lacking residual recovery (something the base form can choose to have). Finally, it guarantees that you will Mega Evolve as soon as possible.

Arena Trap is a very powerful ability, but worth a look. It won't let you trap Flying-types (or Ghost-types), so it's not a perfect way to trap the Pokemon you want to counter. But it does mean you control the flow of the battle by choosing what Pokemon you fight, a great advantage for a Pokemon with such a difficult typing to work with. Fire-types are basically screwed (except maybe Heatran) since even the Flying ones have to flee and let a teammate take a hit. It'll force many Fire-types to alter their movesets to make sure that they aren't too easily trapped either, so Arena Trap can easily backfire. Clefable will be in massive trouble, since it cannot escape and will have to take a Poison hit. The utility itself is actually pretty limited if you look at the Viability Rankings, as many of the top Pokemon are not ones you want to stay in against regardless, but the trap does put the play in your favor, since they cannot double switch. I think that last point is the main benefit of this ability, and quite a massive power in general.

I have to say, Unaware is a nice option for both enhancing strengths and reducing weaknesses. It doesn't actually make this CAP take on most set-up sweepers that well, as most of them hit super-effectively and it won't enjoy Scalds no matter what. But it provides a similar utility to Sand Stream, and an all-around better answer to M Charizard-X and Thunderus-I. Oddly, it also means Serperior and Volcarona are far less threatening. The CAP won't be overpowered by SD boosted M-Heracross and Breloom anymore either (Spore still sucks but w.e.). It the ability too good? Say that when you try switching this in against SD Scizor or Mega Metagross and you'll likely realize that it's still limited in what it can do.

Wasn't too huge a fan of Solid Rock before, and the possible increase in stats doesn't make it look any better, as the more specialized defensive abilities in Sand Stream and Regenerator have more of an impact. Rattled was an interesting option in the base form discussion, but it's too situational to rely on for the Mega form, and the +1 to Speed is a rather small benefit. It worked before because the base form would receive the boost, and then there was the option to Mega Evolve into a more potent ability that made use of a possible Speed boost. Alone, the Speed boost is just kind of mediocre (though it does depend on the stats and movepool as well). Sturdy is not really a good idea, Regenerator only heals you when you switch out after all. You still take hazard damage on switch-in, breaking your Sturdy. Relying on Defog or Rapid Spin support is not normally a problem, but you certainly can't rely on Mega Sableye or Mega Diancie support for Magic Bounce (for obvious reasons I hope). A lot of effort just to make sure the Sturdy stays intact though, when the CAP is supposed to provide utility itself. Rock Head is a bit presumptuous, since it steers us to Head Smash, and possibly other recoil moves. While anti- poll-jumping kind of fell out of the water early on in the process, an ability that only benefits 1 major possible move leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

In the previous thread, Natural Cure was brought up. Removing Burns and paralysis is a nice benefit, and Sleep and Freeze are a cute bonus. In the end, it may not be a strong enough ability to make people want to give up Regenerator, so I'd like to hear thoughts on this. Sand Rush and Sand Force were also noted before, though this CAP doesn't have Sand Stream as a base form ability. They do require additional teammates, but they boost the offensive capabilities of the CAP, meaning it can focus more on its defenses initially.
 
Last edited:
I like Adaptability. Not even because I can foresee situations where it'd make a difference, can't do that without the statblock anyway, but... well, strengths of typing concept, having an incentive to use moves of the typing is pro-concept, right?

Let's just not overdo it on the stats. Mega Lucario's banned, that has Adaptability and 145 attack. Adaptability Gunk Shot coming off a similar number could result in a lot of unfun "you die or I miss" situations.

Compoundeyes I guess would be good for fixing up accuracy, while Sheer Force would... it doesn't boost Power Gem, and I don't know what physical Poison move would be used with it, so it could cause mixing.

Sand Stream is what I suggested earlier, but that was under the assumption of a Water immunity ability on the base. In general, competing with Regenerator for a survival ability is tough, so it should be some form of power ability, and I guess Adaptability is best, followed by Compoundeyes.
 
Natural Cure is better off as an ability of the base forme. Our Mega form needs to have good enough strengths to be used over the base form, and access to Regenerator is already going to make it a little difficult; the same thing applies to Rattled. Something like Sand Stream or Compoundeyes gives a strong enough incentive to use it; however, I would like us to keep in mind that a Life Orb base forme is usually stronger than the Mega forme, so I do not think our Mega would use Compoundeyes to the CAP's fullest potential. Rock Head for the Mega forme is plausible since stockpiling Rock Head + Life Orb would be a bit much, but let's try not to overthink what we are trying to achieve.
 
There are a couple of different ways we could go about this, but the thing I think is most important here is that we have an ability that is useful, and not too similar to Regenerator. For a Pokemon trying to pivot in and out repeatedly, there is literally no ability that helps that as much as Regenerator. While of course we don't know stats or movepool at this stage, giving some other ability that functions similarly, such as Natural Cure, is just asking for the Mega to not be as useful as it could be compared to the base. So, with that said, I think there are a couple ways we can go about this.

First, like was often suggested for the base ability, we can choose an ability that helps us deal with Water-type Pokemon. I am not particularly a fan of Water Absorb or any similar ability on the Mega form, since that more directly removes a downside of the type on the more powerful version of the Pokemon, but abilities like Sand Stream and Drought, which weaken the hits we would be taking from such Pokemon are things I think could work.

While not exactly a water stopping ability, Unaware is actually a fairly interesting choice here, as, even if we lack other measures against it, it would stop Manaphy from setting up on us. That alone is not something I find particularly important, but this ability would be useful against some of the other Pokemon we want to deal with, so it is not a bad choice at all. With that said, it doesn't fall squarely into any category of things that I would like to see us do with this ability, so it is not my personal favorite.

A different way to go about things would be to use our ability to give an offensive boost that will help us take advantage of our typing. Adaptability is one that has been thrown around here and it certainly has its upsides, but personally I think I prefer Rock Head. Head Smash is a move that is uniquely Rock type, and Rock Head allows us to abuse that fully. Compare that to Adaptability, and while Rock Head is type focused, Adaptability is very generic. Sure, it boost our type, but it does little to show off what it has over other types. Also, while obviously we can have Head Smash whether or not we have Rock Head, people are unlikely to use it over Stone Edge when it has such massive recoil, unless it secures some important KO. With that said, plain old STAB Head Smash does indeed outpower Adaptability Stone Edge, meaning that in some ways Rock Head might actually be the stronger offensive ability, at least for one of our types. Furthermore, beyond Head Smash, there are 6 different types of recoil coverage move that could potentially be abused with this ability (though Submission is pretty terrible even with Rock Head). While I will not assume we would possess any specific ones of them, we would certainly have many options to take advantage of this ability. That said, this ability does pretty much lock us in to being a physical offensive Pokemon (or at least mixed), which means that if we do not want to lock ourselves into that we should choose something else.

Finally, as people have suggested, Compoundeyes would be an option here, as it makes our strongest STABs actually accurate. This is not, however, something that I think is really worth our ability slot here. Unlike the Recoil downside of Head Smash, the accuracy downside of Rock moves (and Gunk Shot) has never really been enough to make people not run the moves. So, while the accuracy boost does make it so that you won't miss, it won't actually help us win anything that we would not already win. If we were dealing with 70% accurate moves with a reliable alternative that people actually would not run without Compoundeyes (eg Blizzard), then having the ability actually lets us take advantage of this and win matchups we might not otherwise be able to. But as is, it would really just be luck insurance, which is not really the kind of useful ability I think we need here. In addition, it is worth mentioning that, much like Rock Head, Compoundeyes pretty much necessitates a physical attacking Pokemon, since all the good special Rock and Poison moves are already 100% accurate.

I'm sure there might be some other ways people can think of to take advantage of our mega ability, but these are the ones that come to mind for me as the most useful.
 
I always did like Unaware as an ability. Considering that we're trying to not lose to bulky Water-types (which is pretty damn difficult with such a typing), Unaware would pay dividends in helping us combat the Manaphy, the most prominent bulky Water and arguably the best balance breaker in the metagame. The ability to wipe out its boosts could help us take it down depending on what our stats end up being. Sand Stream works well in this regard as well, as has been said before.

In order to threaten bulky Water-types effectively, we should ideally be able to switch in on them. As such, while offensive abilities such as Compound Eyes and Adaptability could be very useful on paper, I'd prefer a more defensive route to counter, rather than check, the slew of Waters. I'm not opposed to an offensive ability if we decide to be a very strong check rather than an average counter, though.
 
I think something worth deciding now, seeing the discussion, is whether we want a defensive or offensive ability. We have to keep in mind that it should be a more powerful ability, with Regenerator in base form being so powerful. If we give this thing Head Smash, there's nothing stopping this CAP from using it in base form with Band or Life Orb and then recovering recoil damage off with Regenerator. Despite this, Rock Head would make Head Smash more spammable and it'd be safer to use recoil moves in general.

I like Sand Stream for defensive ability and Rock Head for offensive.
 
Last edited:
1. What do we want our Mega Ability to accomplish? Should it be patching a weakness, enhancing a strength, and/or putting us in line with our Threats list?

Our Primary ability is very good at allowing us to switch in and out in spite of our weak typing - aka it patches a weakness - so I think we should use this ability as a method to Enhance a Strength.

To that end, it's not a long stretch to say that the strongest Rock and Poison STAB options are inaccurate (Stone Edge + Gunk Shot). One of the methods that came up on IRC to boost these moves was CompoundEyes. Not only is it well in line with our concept (It plays very neatly to the strengths of the types), it allows CAP21 to be reliable at whatever it ends up doing (Rather than having to rely on moves such as Poison Jab and Power Gem, or play games with the RNG).

Other things that came up on IRC included Super Luck (Cross Poison + Stone Edge have high crit rates), which sparked a conversation which lasted for not long until someone pointed out that both moves only reached +2 Crit, which was only a 50% crit rate, not 100%.

I already posted both of these abilities already, the former even during the base ability discussion.

Anyways, I don't see any chance of us defensively countering Water-Types unless we use a water immunity ability because Manaphy exists:

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 192-228 (47.6 - 56.5%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Arceus-Rock in Sand: 230-272 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And that's the bulky set with Leftovers - the only water-weak things I found that are not 2HKOed are Assault Vest Shuckle and Assault Vest Groudon (who is still 2HKOed by Energy Ball).

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rock-Type Blissey in Sand: 212-252 (29.6 - 35.2%) -- 18.1% chance to 3HKO

That's the biggest itemless special wall in the game and even then we can only check with dedicated investment and no prior damage (less investment can leave us 2HKOed if rocks are on the field). So, the best ability for checking/countering Manaphy would be Water Absorb as it provides an immunity and can potentially offset entry hazard damage.

While irrelevant to competetive play, I want to point out that Water Absorb is consistent with Regenerator in providing recovery.
 
Compound Eyes is restrict as hell as an ability imo, considering it p much forces a physical attacking build. Aside from that, Adaptability and Sheer Force just seem superior to Compound Eyes as they can boost the weaker moves to a similar level, while boosting the inaccurate moves to be more powerful for damage over accuracy builds
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top