CAP 21 CAP 21 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

[Deck Knight]

I think forcing Fire-types to run Will-O-Wisp and thereby diminishing their offensive presence is one of the goals of this CAP, and for this reason I can't support Water Veil.

I also think a Water Immunity is trying to compensate for something that just can't be reasonably fixed. Of the two Water types we're targeting, a sufficiently offensive CAP (and definitely a Mega) can 2HKO with Gunk Shot or, since we're in the ability phase, how about we go for Rock Head to benefit Head Smash? This wrecks Manaphy and while Keldeo resists, a follow-up Gunk Shot with the necessary stats to KO would work splendidly. A resisted Head Smash has the same power as a neutral Rock Slide. Water-types could also be addressed with Grass coverage, a coverage which doesn't really affect any Ground-types outside Hippowdon (Lando-T, Chompy, Excadrill, and Gliscor are neutral) [Also Rock Head Wood Hammer Mmmmm].

"What do we want CAP21's Primary Ability to accomplish?"

In any case, I think our primary ability should match the concept and play to the types strengths and weaknesses and be relevant to Pokemon we want to threaten. Sand Stream does this perfectly, and undermines two of our targets directly, Volcarona and Zard-Y, that rely on special attacks to damage. After Zard-Y Mega Evolves it additionally takes its Sun away. Sand Stream also provides some scouting value for Leftovers, and can help identify Magic Guard vs. Unaware (70/30) Clefables. Additionally, this typing specifically is immune to Toxic and neutral to SR, and therefore difficult to wear down. It is also true that the most prevalent types it lures as checks (counters being physical Ground and Steel mons) use the Special Attacks Sandstorm buffers against. Sand Stream is more effective than Solid Rock at lowering Special Attack damage, and puts more target Pokemon into KO range. Lets also briefly mention neutrals. With Sand Stream and a good distribution, CAP has psuedo-resistance to Dragon, Fighting, Ghost, Grass, and Ice Special moves, and this can be leveraged extremely well because Rock/Poison STAB is neutral or SE on all of these.

As far as Base vs Mega emphasis, the ability to relaunch Sand Stream, if its worn out or been replaced is also a great strategic move, and I predict the enhanced stats will also make it highly desirable to be a Mega, but no so much so that you waste the strategic placement of using it. Even if we were to use a more offensive ability for the Mega and not have SS on the way back in without a partner like TTar or Hippowdon, the ability to capitalize on the 1.5x SpD would be beneficial.

Now, there is the question "What about Tail Glow" and, again, I know this is Ability but there is a move that wrecks Manaphy after a Tail Glow setup, and it's Topsy-Turvy. Manaphy's options on a faster TT mon is to either TG again to get back to 0, or use -3 Scald. Combined with Sand Stream this means you are building up damage, you can negate Rain, etc. Again, if CAP can 2HKO Manaphy with Gunk Shot you're trading that potentially for a burn chance, but nonetheless you do stop it in its tracks and provide something unique against a number of set-up sweepers. As far as defensive types go, Rock/Poison is pretty credible on switchin - Fire, Flying, and Fairy attacks are common offensive moves. All I'm saying is that we have credible options here, especially with the unique typing of this CAP.

I also think CAP can build bridges on Sand Teams not because it will replace Tyranitar but because it can be run along with it instead of Hippowdon. The secondary Poison typing provides a marvelous contrast for Tyranitar and soaks up a huge number of the attacks that target it. As a partner, nobody is going to complain about Tyranitar's own competitive abilities like in so many of the partner Pokemon discussions CAP has had in the past. In exchange, for the defensive cover Sub-Poison provides for Sub-Dark, there's nothing really bad about having multiple Pokemon with offensive Rock STAB on a team, since it hits so much for neutral or SE.

tl;dr I think Sand Stream most closely matches the concept of the CAP, provides a multitude of benefits specific to the Pokemon we want to counter, potentially forces them to run a support move instead of an offensive one, and provides the best plaform for a Mega-Pokemon by assuring that, barring certain forseeable conditions, assures that Mega CAP will be able to perform a utility counter role very successfully.

 

[snake]

I'm in favor of Water Absorb and Regenerator on the base form now. The former gives CAP21 a water type switch-in and unreliable recovery, while the latter gives CAP21 very reliable recovery, allowing it to switch in, tank a hit, force a switch or do damage or set up Stealth Rocks or whatever, and then switch out and not be as worn down. This is hit-and-run strategy seems important for the base form, so it can find the perfect time to Mega Evolve.

That being said, I still love Sand Stream. It allows CAP21 to switch into Mega Charizard Y and effectively neuter it by getting rid of sun boosted Fire-type moves and Solarbeam. However, I feel like this ability suits it much better for the Mega Form. If CAP21 double switches into Mega Charizard Y, it can Mega Evolve itself, set up Sandstorm through Sand Stream, and force the switch. In the way, CAP21 has a one use "Surprise Sandstorm." It also allows to CAP21 to set up sand multiple times, without being stuck in base form to setting setting up sand. Most importantly, it gives its Mega Form more value, so people will be more likely to use it.

I've also seen a little bit about Rattled, and I don't like this ability for this concept. It only takes advantage of Rock/Poison-Typing by resisiting U-turn. The only other time that CAP21 will really have it activated without taking a lot of damage is if it gets hit by Knock Off, which is not strengthened because CAP21's (hopefully often used) Mega Stone, not because of its typing.

 

[LightningLord2]

We can actually take advantage of the typing by giving it Poison Point. Some of the things we check (most notably, Talonflame) can pivot out with U-Turn to trigger this ability. Furthermore, this allows us to check some physical attackers more as it will boost Venoshock, which we get STAB on. We can even try switching into a Landorus-T pivoting out to fish for a delibitating status (or stays in predicting U-Turn). This is hardly effective in checking Ground-Types, but dissuading them from not using STAB could be useful for getting free switches (which our x4 weakness to Ground already does).

 

[escarlata]

I suddenly had sort of a epiphany on how Arena Trap could be a possible ability for CAP 21 to take advantage of, despite for the fact it cannot trap flyers, which is a primary target.

As an utility counter, one of the worst thing to face is when you switch in to take a hit, pretty much forced to heal up while your opponent switch out to force you out again; Arena Trap literally prevents that. Arena Trap also means you can trap a target during the turn you Mega up to a more desirable form to deal with it. (i.e. to a Mega with Water Absorb or sth against Azumarill, while he can't switch out)

Certainly giving base form a trapping ability may lead to competition with non Mega usage, but it can't be said for sure until stats, and I'd say Dugtrio would probably still be the superior offensive non-mega trapper unless CAP21 has a similar speed tier.

 

[NumberCruncher]

I've also seen a little bit about Rattled, and I don't like this ability for this concept. It only takes advantage of Rock/Poison-Typing by resisiting U-turn. The only other time that CAP21 will really have it activated without taking a lot of damage is if it gets hit by Knock Off, which is not strengthened because CAP21's (hopefully often used) Mega Stone, not because of its typing.

True, but resisting U-Turn and not being phased by Knock Off are two of the only things this mon has going for it. Currently, CAP only has 3 useful resistances. There's Fire (which Tyranitar is going to wall better), Flying (which Tyrantirar is going to wall better), and Bug. We're going to need to take advantage of this Bug resistance if we're not going to be Tyranitar lite.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I'm going to stick a 24 Hour Warning on this discussion. In the meantime, I'd like people to discuss the merits and viability of a few Abilities, most notably Rattled, Flame Body, and Water Veil. These three Abilities have had rather strong arguments made in favor of them, but they've gone reasonably unnoticed because so much of the discussion has been centered around Abilities such as Drought, Sand Stream, and Regenerator. While I'm not restricting the rest of this discussion to these three Abilities, I'd like to get a better grasp of the consensus on them and more situational Primary Abilities in general.

Questions to be Answered in the last 24 hours:

1. Are more niche, situational Primary Abilities such as Rattled, Flame Body, and Water Veil useful? If so, which ones? If not, why do we need a more powerful Primary Ability?

2. Continue discussion on existing topics.

 

[Cretacerus]

Water Immunity Abilities:

Considering the concept is about finding a natural niche for our typing to excel in, we have to seriously question if these abilities are not more distracting than helpful to our goal.
Do we really want our Rock/Poison CAP to happily switch into powerful Water-type attacks as part of its playstyle? Sure, finding free switch-ins is always nice, and will give us a generally better Pokemon, but that has never been the main goal of CAP, and definitely doesn’t warrant using our primary ability slot over several other options that are much more pro-concept.

Let’s remember why Water-types are on our threat list in the first place. Not because we decided that we need more switch-in opportunities for CAP, but rather because we can’t afford them to come in freely on us and proceed to threaten our entire team. Preventing Manaphy from setting up a sweep is a necessary evil to ensure CAP's place on a balanced team, which can be realistically done with sufficient offensive pressure as already stated by Deck Knight and others. There is no reason to go as far as using Water-types as switch-in opportunities and even walling them completely without any context and against the direction of our concept.


1. Explain how the Pokemon benefits from the base form having the weather Ability.

I quite like Sand Stream, since it actually takes advantage of one of the inherent traits of our typing by reliably activating the 1.5 SpD boost unique to Rock-types. It also gives us an elegant way to lessen the threat of Water-types by significantly reducing the damage from their often specially based attacks for the first 5 turns CAP is in play. While this might not be long, it still deters them from switching in against CAP as soon as it enters the field alongside the offensive prowess by our STABs, which is ultimately what we wanted to achieve. Furthermore, CAP won't be as reliant on the Sandstorm boost compared to some of the other defining abilities proposed, which alongside its ability to carry over to our Mega Evolution makes it very favorable as our base stage ability. We won't actually have to give up a significant role (such as being the team's water-type switch-in) upon Mega Evolving, which is beneficial for balanced teams which favor consistency.

Drought on the other hand is a lot more controversial, since it only really gives us a better match-up against Water-types for no reason other than that it's on the threatlist. Sure, CAP has decent offensive and defensive synergy with both Grass and Fire, but almost any other Rock-typing could do the same and a lot better. The Poison sub-type is more of a liability than assistance for a sun setter, stacking weaknesses with Fire-types and especially Venusaur while being completely redundant offensively. Most importantly, Rock/Poison has a terrible match-up against the most common opposing weather, Sand, both offensively and defensively, taking away the biggest advantage of weather abilities in being a convenient check to opposing weather.
Lastly, Drought is generally a much more defining ability than Sand Stream, which is an issue once the weather wears off. CAP won't be able to rely on boosted Fire Attacks and Solar Beam (taking up half its moveset) if it only lasts for 5 turns, meaning that it has to find a completely different niche for the rest of the game.


2. Should we patch a weakness, provide additional opportunities to switch in, or something entirely different?

The main argument for immunity abilities are that they provide free switch-ins in order to make our CAP generally better, at the cost of running directly against the original concept. This is something I can’t really support unless it’s absolutely necessary, which can't be said of our current situation. We're only yet deciding on our primary ability, with stats and movepool still being completely open, so I don't see why we would go out of our way this early just to make CAP more viable, especially since the other ability options aren't useless either and actually fit with the concept. If we wan't to increase the viability of this CAP, we should focus on making it better at its existing roles - if need be by giving it better stats and movepool than its competition - instead of simply adding new and completely unrelated ones.


3. Are more niche, situational Primary Abilities such as Rattled, Flame Body, and Water Veil useful? If so, which ones? If not, why do we need a more powerful Primary Ability?

Water Veil: This ability is a natural fit for a Rock-type aiming to counter Fire-types reliably, which is definitely something we should be going for. Even though forcing the opposing Fire-types to run Will-O-Wisp is a minor success in itself, having an reliable switch-in to them is still very much favorable if we can afford the ability slot. This is the actual issue of Water Veil, in that it only gives us a one turn burn immunity if used as our base stage ability, making it highly situational and generally not worth it.
I'd rather we consider it as our Mega Ability, giving us safer switch-ins to Fire-types throughout the game and even curing potential burns received prior to Mega Evolving, something we should definitely look into at a later point of we want to go with a physical spread.

Guts/Flare boost: This is again something we can't really take advantage of, since we will most likely only spend one turn in our base form. As with Water Veil, we should save those abilities for the Mega Ability discussion.

Rattled: Tornadus and Weavile are two of the Pokemon we should be able to safely switch in against, and Knock-Off and U-Turn are among their most spammable moves. Having a full counter to both which actively deters the use of those moves can be a huge advantage for your team, even if CAP doesn't actually get the boost. This psychological aspect as well as the ability to carry the boost over to its Mega Form makes this ability a lot less situational than the other abilities listed here, making it a worthy candidate for our primary ability in my opinion.

Solid Rock/Filter: The main advantage of this ability would be to better deal with Water and Psychic coverage on threats we could otherwise handle offensively (Mega Guardevoir, Manaphy), which is generally done a lot better by something like Sandstream. Solid Rock and Filter also loose their effect instantly once we choose to Mega evolve, so they won't be able to take advantage of the stat boost unlike Sandstream, making them much weaker alternatives.

In general, our base form's ability should be as consistent and reliable as possible, since we only have one chance to take advantage of it in most cases. While situational abilities can certainly be helpful for our concept, they should be left to our Mega Evolution who can take advantage of them throughout the match.

 

[Ahhhhhh......Clefable.]

1. Are more niche, situational Primary Abilities such as Rattled, Flame Body, and Water Veil useful? If so, which ones? If not, why do we need a more powerful Primary Ability?

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Magic Bounce. While it is a powerful ability, I think using it on the pre-Mega form has its merit in terms of switching in safely, and isn't overpowered. It protects CAP from Will-o-Wisp, Toxic, Taunt, Stealth Rock, etc. It does little to mitigate Scald burns or CAPs Water- and Psychic-type weaknesses, but it does provide more general protection against status moves, which help CAP get in safely in order to Mega Evolve. And it's MegaEvolution could benefit more greatly from more powerful or more useful permanent abilities, such as Water Veil, Sand Stream, etc.

 

[KhosroTheGreat]

Magic Bounce is rather dangerous an ability to have as a pre-Mega ability, given the relative lack of good Pokemon that run it and how useful it is to so many team, it could easily make the base forme more useful/used more than its Mega.

 

[Ahhhhhh......Clefable.]

Magic Bounce is rather dangerous an ability to have as a pre-Mega ability, given the relative lack of good Pokemon that run it and how useful it is to so many team, it could easily make the base forme more useful/used more than its Mega.

This is a good point, but if you give its MegaEvolution an even better or more useful ability, such as Drought, Sand Stream, Guts, etc. then it would still have value in MegaEvolving.

I don't think that Magic Bounce would be strong enough on this Pokemon specifically to overpower its Mega, especially since we still have free reign to determine its ability.

 

[Alfalfa]

I just don't think that Water Veil offers enough utility to support CAP 21's role, especially since those Pokemon are only part of the Pokemon CAP 21 is supposed to counter. However, I do see that Rattled doesn't really help CAP 21 against the Pokemon it threatens, and I recognize that burns are a problem that should be mitigated somehow; therefore, I think Regenerator should be the primary ability. It neuters burns similarly to Water Veil, but it also has more use against the rest of the metagame. Having Regenerator would give CAP 21 some passive recovery, which is really nice since it's holding a Mega Stone and thus lacks Leftovers. I also still think that Water Absorb is a potential candidate, though, as it greatly improves CAP 21's matchup against Manaphy and Keldeo.

Regenerator doesn't neuter burns, it only heals damage upon switching out. The reduced attack stat is still present even with Regenerator, which is a side effect our CAP does not want.

 

[Exclaimer]

Magic Bounce is a very dangerous ability to try on our CAP's base form, mostly because there are only 6 users of the ability... three of which are Mega, one is NFE, and the other two are barely ever seen in OU. Giving this Pokemon Magic Bounce would give this mon incredible utility that is hard to come by, and would probably forge a strong niche just from having that ability. Especially if we give it high defensive stats, which is a likely possibility with the attitude the community has shown so far. If we remove the ability upon Mega Evolving, that will probably just decrease the likelihood that this Pokemon will Mega Evolve, because Magic Bounce is such a strong ability when given to a Pokemon with stats that can use it well.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Regenerator doesn't neuter burns, it only heals damage upon switching out. The reduced attack stat is still present even with Regenerator, which is a side effect our CAP does not want.

Natural Cure does have this effect though, and I think that could arguably be better than FB/WV for our purposes. Many of the Pokemon we're trying to threaten are fast, so it's possible paralysis could be just as crippling as burn to us, especially given our plethora of weaknesses. Natural Cure would save us from both.

As for other situational abilities, I'm not quite as up on Water Veil as I am Natural Cure. Guts seems awkward, given that the general consensus is that we don't want this mon to keep that ability on Mega-evolving. We all know my feelings on why Rattled is a good ability. I used to like Solid Rock as an ability, but now I'm significantly less in favor of it. Most of the attacks we're weak to would still hit pretty hard even at neutral, and Solid Rock doesn't bring anywhere near close to neutral.

Drought is just a bad ability for this to have. As cretacerus has pointed out already, it stacks too many weaknesses with the mons that want sun. Even if it didn't, we're trying to make a Scizor-style mega with both sides being at least somewhat playable (even if not as playable as actual Scizor), not a Garchomp-style mega where the mega is hideously outclassed by the base form. Sun teams need a reliable source of Sun, and if they lose it, they peter out quickly. It would never want to mega-evolve because when it does, you no longer have a sun setter.

Sand Stream is substantially better for our purposes, because there are plenty of setters that are legitimately not terrible and don't need to mega evolve. It can set it's sand, but it doesn't need to do it through the whole game. It gets it's buff, and if we die, it can pass the last of the sand to somebody else. We also want to be good against Charizard-Y, and knocking his sun offline is a good first step.

Regenerator is also a really nice ability. Part of what makes the Bird spammers we don't want to lose to good is that they can just keep chipping until the job gets done. By taking chip out of the equation, it's going to be significantly harder for things like Talonflame to just muscle through CAP.

So in summary:

Like:
Rattled, Regenerator, Sand Stream, Natural Cure, and Flame Body/Water Veil

Dislike:
Drought, Guts/Flare Boost, Solid Rock/Filter

I'm not going to step into the Water-immunity discussion, except in that Water Absorb would probably be most appropriate for the same reason Regenerator would be nice. There are really good arguments for and against Water-immunity abilities, and I'm frankly indifferent about it.

 

[jas61292]

To address the question of the more niche abilities, I personally believe that Rattled could actually be a really nice ability for the base form. The ability to benefit from switching into a resisted U-Turn would make CAP21 even more threatening to Pokemon like Talonflame, as they can't simply U-Turn as safely as they might otherwise be able to. It doesn't completely stop the things that counter us from stopping us if we get in on a U-Turn or other such move, but it can make it a lot harder for less solid checks. This also plays well as a base form ability, as the boost, if you get it, can be kept through mega evolution. Furthermore, one of the types that gives you a boost is Dark, and, along with holding a mega stone, this gives you massive incentive to switch into Knock Off, something that few Pokemon really like to do.

As for the other niche abilities, I'm not particularly sold on any of them. Avoiding Burns with Water Veil is neat, but as mentioned by Cretacerus, I think this would be much more useful on a Mega, as not only would it prevent you from being burned in the form you actually intend to use for attacking, but it can also cure burn if you switched into it before mega evolving.

Flame Body, on the other hand, sounds neat, but really, not a ton of Pokemon that we are looking to stop that will regularly be using contact moves on us. Furthermore among those that will, two key Pokemon, Talonflame and Mega Charizard-X, are immune to burn. Static or some other "on contact" ability that could actually effect those Pokemon could have some potential, but I don't really think it would be worth it over our other options.

Finally, I don't really like Solid Rock/Filter as an ability here. It reduces damage from water moves a bit, but not really enough to make a huge difference. At the same time, it is just generally reducing our weaknesses, which I don't particularly like, since we want to be defined by our traits. Situationally boosting our defenses, a la Sand Stream, is one thing, I don't really like the idea of simply making a set of key type traits less prominent.

 

[snake]

I still think Regenerator is best for our CAP, it sounds like we have a really hit-and-run playstyle, seeing how so many common OU attacking rules hit us so hard. Recovering the damage off of Talonflame's Brave Bird or another resisted hit from a Pokemon that CAP21 counters would make CAP21 much more resilient. This way, even if we give it Recover or something, we don't have to spend a turn regaining health, while the opponent switches into a hard counter. We can fire off an attacking move or a utility move instead during this turn.

I still like Water Absorb; the free switch into a Water-type attack while regaining health sounds great.

I mentioned Rattled in an earlier post, and I like its concept, but, again, with what sounds like a hit-and-run playstyle, it'll lose its +1 speed when it switches out.

I kinda like Natural Cure, but I think the health recovery from Renerator could give is more important than the status recovery.

Again, I love the idea of Sand Stream as well, but I feel like it is best on the Mega forme.

 

[Korski]

I agree that Sand Stream is definitely the most appealing ability for this project and at this point I don't need to elaborate on that except to say I think it would be a mistake to pick Sand Stream for the base form and not for the Mega ability. Mega CAP will surely benefit more from the sand than the base form, what with an instant 100 point stat boost on top of the instant 50 or so pseudo-points in SpD that sand provides. This is a huge instant stat boost that highly encourages Mega Evolution and I believe begins to make up for the typing's enormous handicaps. Doing things in the opposite order would discourage Mega Evolution, essentially giving the CAP only a couple turns to be both MEvo'd and also in Sand and netting only about 50 long-term stat points unless you run two sand setters.

 

[snake]

While that is completely true, I thought we were trying to create a Pokémon who would also be usable without Mega Evolving. If we only gave sand to the Mega, it seems like that form would completely outweigh the base. I am all for Sand Stream as an ability, but I disagree that it should be the Mega's ability rather than the base form's. If we were to use Sand Stream, it would work well as a base ability with an added ability for the Mega because it can already use the sandstorm's effects anyways.

We want the base form to be usable, but we want the Mega form to be enticing to use as well. Sand Stream is a very good ability, which would compel some people to use the mega for sand support.

It also allows the mega to keep setting up sand. If we give it to the base form, once it mega evolves, it gets just 5 turns of Sandstorm to do whatever. As I've put it, CAP21 seems to have a "hit-and-run" playstyle; therefore, it might mega, use maybe one or two of those sand turns, have to switch out, and then no more Sand Stream from CAP21.

We don't want the base form to be completely useless, but we definitely don't want it to be stronger than the Mega form.

Am I the only one who sees CAP21 having a "hit-and-run" playstyle? I feel like it'll get forced out so much that it'll have to switch out and back in a lot, but that's just me.

 

[Falchion]

First time actually contributing to a CAP, whooo! Anyway...

snake_rattler: Part of the thing about a "hit-and-run" strategy is basically switching out before taking a hit, which an ability like Regenerator would no doubt be useful for. However, this means trying your hardest to avoid taking hits, which isn't exactly compatible with the good resistances that Poison can provide. A good example of Poison boosting a defensive playstyle would be Tentacruel, which uses its resistances to switch into Bug and Grass attacks and either set up or absorb Toxic Spikes. I think our CAP could pull off a similar defensive niche with the right stats and ability, but for Sun or Sand teams instead, to deal with Flying-types which threaten Sun teams and to get the sand boost, respectively.

I think Regenerator would probably work better on the Mega, personally, because if we're M-Evolving ASAP, we'll be switching in and out with the Mega form more often. Same with the weather abilities, because working with the mega would give us a better chance of having the weather out much longer.

And on the topic of situational abilities, if we're going through with either a hit-and-run or stall playstyle, might I suggest Sand Rush? Not only will the automatic SpD boost be added, but Speed will, too - which I feel would be especially important for giving the base form a stat boost prior to mega-evolving.

 

[P3DS]

Got a bit delayed in giving my points, but here they are:

Solid rock: I like it, because it means that, yes, takes less damage from ground types, but we still have the stats and movepool to figure out first, so it isn't bad, as the stats and moves can be managed to make it still weak to the ones it needs to.

Sand stream: My Fav so far. Sand is an interesting concept for the CAP, and could pair nicely with the CAP, whilst also making Sand Rush excadrill more threatening. The SpD boost will make it stronger vs politoed.

Regenerator: I like it, as it can be useful, and let the CAP stay around longer.

Water absorb+water immunities in abilities: I dislike this being used so early on as a cheap way out of things later on in the CAP development. I'd highly recommend against going for this so early on, and looking back on it later in the CAP development cycle.

My own thoughts on other abilities:

I'd be up to see something like magic bounce/prankster come up as pre-mega options. A priority SR/Toxic user is nice, and could disrupt water types, as well as priority rock polish/CM/SD, which could alter the CAP a lot more, whilst magic bounce wouldn't be as useful, but could cause disruption on bulkier pokemon, and especially on pokemon like rotom-w and SR users.

Overall, I'd see my order of fav abilities as Sand stream>Prankster>Regenerator>Solid Rock>>>Water immunities.

 

[KhosroTheGreat]

Sand Stream poses the same problem as the aforementioned Sand Force, which is that it needs team support in the form of a sand setter.

All three sand abilities will face competition from Excadrill (Sand Rush), Tyranitar/Hippowdon (Sand Stream) and Mega Chomp (Sand Force), and we would need to look very hard at what makes our CAP worth running over these three, especially since 3 out of the 4 are non-Mega and therefore have the advantage of not taking up the Mega Slot - a very useful advantage to have.

 

[WhiteDMist]

Sand Rush and Sand Force are interesting ideas, but they don't provide much for the base form. You are likely to Mega Evolve immediately for the improved stats, so only Sand Rush would be of any use (and only for the turn you Mega). Then you realize that it relies on a Sand setter teammate to activate a mostly pointless ability in the first place, which kind of defeats the point if you aren't making the most of it. These abilities are best left to the Mega CAP. Sand Stream is different because its effects still stick around for a few turns AFTER you Mega Evolve, making it more flexible.

Rattled is a pretty cool idea, making the most of this CAP's defensive niches (rather than the attributes of its Rock and Poison typings). The boost lasts even when you Mega iirc, at least until you switch out completely. Undeniably, it does point the CAP to a physical offensive direction, but I feel that concern is minor; unlike for Storm Drain, the boost is significant enough to alter a moveset for, and U-turn/Knock Off are both more common than Scald.

Natural Cure is an ok option to prevent Burns, paralysis, and sleep/freeze (mostly Burns though). People have noted that this CAP will likely be a hit and run Pokemon. Of course, how long are we actually staying in the base form becomes the real question, and if we wish to Mega Evolve immediately, Natural Cure becomes pointless unless the Mega form has it too (idk the mechanics absolutely, but idt Mega Evolving would trigger Natural Cure).

Flame Body would be interesting, but I admit that physical contact moves are not that common, and many users are either immune to Burns (Taonflame), or carry Earthquake/Steel move.

Magic Bounce distracts from the concept of focusing on the benefits and weaknesses of the typing, and no one will try to Poison this CAP regardless. While bouncing Burns is cool, the side effect of suddenly being another hazard deterrent just makes this CAP fly off into another direction. You can't deny the allure of the ability, especialy since the alternative typing would mean that the base form would have different switch ins than the current MB users. Isn't this concept hard enough as is without that distraction?

Tbh, the best abilities so far seem to be Sand Stream, Rattled, and Regenerator. All 3 make the most of this CAP's typing in different ways, and can help with the hit-and-run nature people believe this CAP will rely on. Intimidate comes close too, but is more generic than Regenerator and doesn't actually help this CAP's sustainability that much (EQ and BP will hurt terribly regardless). These abilities don't try to cover up weaknesses or try and prevent a specific problem from happening, and are still useful for either 1 turn, or for multiple turns depending on how soon you Mega Evolve. They don't make up for the base form's lower stats, meaning Mega Evolving is still a desirable option (and they would be great to keep or change as well).

 

[DetroitLolcat]

All right, time's up. I've been very impressed by the discussion quality this time around, and I think six Abilities have stood out pretty consistently above the rest over the course of the discussion.

Slate:
Regenerator
Sand Stream
Rattled
Water Veil
Drought
Water Absorb

Regenerator was chosen because it allows us to consistently switch into opposing attacks before Mega Evolving. This prevents CAP21 from being overly worn down by hazards or Pokemon, and attacks we're supposed to threaten such as Talonflame and Clefable. Even if CAP21 has mammoth defensive stats, it's still going to take reasonable damage from Swords Dance or Choice Band Talonflame or Flare Blitz from Mega Charizard X, and Regenerator will let it restore its HP without resorting to a recovery move. Regenerator is pro-concept because it will assist in handling neutral and resisted hits while not aiding us against the Pokemon we intend to be threatened by.

Sand Stream provides a Special Defense boost even after we Mega Evolve while also chipping away at the opponent's HP or negating their Leftovers recovery. It makes us a much nicer counter to Mega Charizard Y and provides team support if CAP21 were to be paired with Sand Rush Excadrill. Special Water-types will be significantly less effective against a Sand Stream CAP21, and the boosts from Sand Stream will be carried over after we Mega Evolve.

Rattled is a much more niche Primary Ability, but it does a great job of taking advantage of our U-Turn resistance and inability for our Mega Stone to be Knocked Off. It can prevent opposing Bisharp from Sucker Punching us and deters the opponent from using U-Turn, one of the best moves in the game. More importantly, CAP21 can carry the Speed boost from Rattled to after it Mega Evolves to pose a significant offensive threat to the opposing team.

Water Veil provides insurance against Talonflame and Mega Sableye, plus makes switching into Heatran that much easier because we won't have to worry about Lava Plume. Even Rotom-W, a Water-type we wish to threaten, is scared of a Water Veil CAP21. While the bonus from Water Veil is only temporary and will fade after we Mega Evolve, it still greatly increases our switch-in opportunities and deters opponents from using Will-O-Wisp during the turn we Mega Evolve.

Drought is almost certainly the most "powerful" Ability on this slate. It patches our Water weakness more than any Ability besides Water Absorb and gives us the option of having pseudo-STAB Fire attacks, but at the cost of increased vulnerability to Fire attacks. Unlike Water Absorb, however, we can carry the boosts from Drought over once we Mega Evolve. A Drought CAP21 is unlikely to completely counter Talonflame, although it should be noted that under 50% of Talonflame (from the 1825 stats) run Flare Blitz. This is likely the biggest "risk/reward" Ability on the list.

Water Absorb does exactly what it says on the tin. CAP21 wants to threaten Water-types, this lets us eat up their STAB moves. Manaphy, while still threatening to CAP21, is unlikely to beat a Water Absorb CAP21 1-on-1. The same goes with Keldeo. In fact, Water Absorb CAP21 could possibly counter Keldeo and will hard counter Azumarill rather than check it. Rotom-W's only option against Water Absorb CAP21 is Will-O-Wisp. It's inarguable that this Ability is pro-concept.

(ping Mr. Boss Man jas61292 )

 

[jas61292]

Huh... didn't actually get an alert for that tag. Weird.

Anyways, this slate includes just about every ability I would consider slating here. As such, there will be no adjustments from me. DLC did a great job explaining why each ability would be a good option here, so I really have nothing to add.