CAP 21 CAP 21 - Part 9 - Moveset Discussion

[Empress]

Pursuit: Leaning towards yes.
The ability to surprise Pokemon that CAP 21 counters is definitely nice, but its lack of STAB means that, realistically, it's not chunking anything that it doesn't hit SE for meaningful damage. I guess it could pick off some mons if they're weakened enough, though. As for us beating Psychic-types with Pursuit, the ship has mostly sailed. It won't scare the likes of Mega Metagross and Mega Slowbro. Hoopa-U loses hard to us already. And Mega Alakazam isn't necessarily forced into a switch-or-die situation, as it always outspeeds CAP 21 and can chunk it, KOing it with some prior damage.

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD CAP: 306-360 (86.4 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

A lot of Pokemon found on the same offensive teams as Mega Zam threaten CAP 21, including Keldeo, Gliscor, Ferrothorn, and Heatran. Nonetheless, only Ferrothorn can reliably switch into us, so suffice it to say that unless the core is Zam + Ferro, Mega Zam will probably go for the kamikaze attack if it's facing CAP 21 one-on-one. It's a rather common pairing, though.

Now onto two more notable Psychic-types in OU. If we're not Mega Evolved, we're still outsped by Latios and Latias, rendering Pursuit moot (they OHKO CAP 21 with Psyshock using their standard sets no matter what). Conversely, if we are, Latios always loses, so it goes into switch-or-die mode, which isn't ideal. Latias also has a notable chance to lose without Pursuit as well.

252 Atk CAP Head Smash vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 276-325 (86.5 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def CAP: 367-432 (103.6 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO

"What? A mere 12.5% chance to OHKO Latias here is in our favor?" Yes, as it's not the most likely scenario for both mons to be at full health and have no entry hazards, so realistically speaking, we'll have the upper hand in many scenarios. If we are in this perfect scenario, though, whether or not Latias will stay in and go for the one-for-one sacrifice really depends on what teammates are waiting in the back. Just like with Mega Alakazam, though, a lot of mons on the balance teams that you see Latias on threaten us to some degree, including the likes of Manaphy, Mega Metagross, and Landorus-T. Of course, Manaphy won't be able to switch into us, but it's reasonable to say that Latias may switch out to M-Gross and Lando-T and have them absorb a hit from CAP 21, only for Latias to get surprised by Pursuit.

So, to Pursuit or not to Pursuit? Sure; for the most part it's rather harmless. On one hand, the damage we'll land on fleeing foes that it hits neutrally probably won't be immediately meaningful. But on the other hand, it could prove critical for a teammate should CAP 21 be fainted, possibly bringing the likes of Talonflame and Mega Charizard Y into a partner's KO range. As for the Psychic-types, the ability to beat Latios, (usually) Latias, and (sometimes) Mega Alakazam harder than we already do seems a tad overkill. We threaten these mons to a degree already, though, so Pursuit wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for us.

Jump Kick: Leaning towards no.
First off, like DLC said, Jump Kick hits lots of Steel-types neutrally and thus fails to outdamage Head Smash much of the time. Secondly, Wood Hammer is actually enough to prevent non-Sand Rush or Choice Scarf Excadrill from countering us.

252 Atk CAP Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 202-238 (55.9 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Bulky Excadrill still counters us though, but that's provided entry hazards aren't up.

252 Atk CAP Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 204-240 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

If we want Excadrill to not counter us at all, I can get behind Jump Kick. But we don't necessarily want to shit on Drill completely; we merely want to have a fighting chance against it, and with Wood Hammer, we do have that chance. Still, I see why it's tempting to want to directly do something to Ferrothorn. Upon thinking through it further, there's something that can be used in combination with Wood Hammer to soften up bulky Exca a lot and helps against Steels without severely chunking them.

Spikes.

Yep. In fact, the AoA and Offensive Utility sets could very well be combined with each other to make the standard set Head Smash / Gunk Shot / Wood Hammer / Spikes. 1 layer is all we need to stop bulky Exca completely. As for Ferrothorn, it's pretty resilient, but Spikes wears it down a hell of a lot faster than Stealth Rock does, not to mention that having more than one layer of Spikes down is a realistic scenario. Let's face it, though: we can't directly beat Ferro without something crazy like Flare Blitz or High Jump Kick. Spikes would fit the bill well, giving us a fighting chance to beat unboosted (Speed-wise) Excadrill while providing good general utility. If we decide that directly doing something to Ferro would be too much for this CAP, Spikes fits as a happy medium.

Bulldoze: Yes. (Not like it'd do anything though)
Not gonna post a wall of calcs, but Bulldoze's damage output is pretty harmless for pretty much all Steel-types, outdamaging Head Smash only marginally. The Speed-lowering effect doesn't come in handy that often either; off the top of my head I can only think of one such scenario. We hit Choice Scarf Excadrill with Bulldoze as it switches into us and then outspeed it and finish it off the next turn. Not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things. The only other thing that Bulldoze would let us beat through damage alone that we don't already is Magnezone, making it a rather niche move.

 

[Blackdrakon30]

I was looking at fighting type coverage, and I am thinking no. First of all, I am looking at the fighting type physical moves in a range of 70-85 BP, because I think we can all agree Superpower, Hammer Arm, or High Jump Kick are a tad to powerful against our threats when used on this CAP.

Sky Uppercut used in Mega Form puts nearly all Steel types it hits super effectively into a guaranteed 2HKO, or sometime 3HKO. So I vote no Sky Uppercut because that takes half our threats (several steels) and puts them down the drain.

Submission I kind of like as a move though since it has bad recoil, accuracy and low BP as drawbacks. Maybe it will be an option if you really need, but not a move you want to use. It places all the steel types in about the same range as Sky Uppercut, but the recoil would hopefully keep it from being used many times, as long as the CAP has no easy recovery moves.

Brick Break/Drain Punch is next down the BP line. Most frailer steel types that are hit supereffective by fighting are still 2HKOed, Ferrothorn (A Wall of particular difficulty for this CAP to deal with) has a 20% chance of being 2HKOed.

Wake-Up Slap is far less powerful. Exca and Bisharp are 2HKOed and OHKOed, respectively. Ferro is a 4HKO now, making us walled by it more, and Magnezone has a 30% chance to be 2HKOed. A lot less powerful, and it causes less issues with being overwhelming by what I see. I mean, it is Wake-Up Slap. That isn't a move that can really be overpowering.

So it seems like we have two options if we want Fighting Type coverage: Submission, the 80 BP move with lots of disadvantages and drawbacks, or Wake-Up Slap, the weak move that keeps the threats still there but does not seem outstandingly useful to the CAP. I think Submission is better tbh, but idk how the CAP would do with any of the above moves. Drain Punch is the only one used competatively, so I guess CAP would like to have Drain Punch best, but I think it does enough damage without drawbacks, and with an HP gain, that I don't think we want to give it drain punch. I can't say I love Submission or Wake-Up Slap though, both are extremely sucky moves. I guess thats kind of the point though, as we are trying to make the coverage a bit more sucky.

 

[snake]

Submission I kind of like as a move though since it has bad recoil, accuracy and low BP as drawbacks. Maybe it will be an option if you really need, but not a move you want to use. It places all the steel types in about the same range as Sky Uppercut, but the recoil would hopefully keep it from being used many times, as long as the CAP has no easy recovery moves.

Wake-Up Slap is far less powerful. Exca and Bisharp are 2HKOed and OHKOed, respectively. Ferro is a 4HKO now, making us walled by it more, and Magnezone has a 30% chance to be 2HKOed. A lot less powerful, and it causes less issues with being overwhelming by what I see. I mean, it is Wake-Up Slap. That isn't a move that can really be overpowering.

So it seems like we have two options if we want Fighting Type coverage: Submission, the 80 BP move with lots of disadvantages and drawbacks, or Wake-Up Slap, the weak move that keeps the threats still there but does not seem outstandingly useful to the CAP. I think Submission is better tbh, but idk how the CAP would do with any of the above moves. Drain Punch is the only one used competatively, so I guess CAP would like to have Drain Punch best, but I think it does enough damage without drawbacks, and with an HP gain, that I don't think we want to give it drain punch. I can't say I love Submission or Wake-Up Slap though, both are extremely sucky moves. I guess thats kind of the point though, as we are trying to make the coverage a bit more sucky.

Because we don't have Magic Guard on the Mega forme that cancels out Submission's recoil. Also lol Submission

Also, Low Sweep has a better additional effect at the expense of 5BP compared to Wake-Up Slap. On mobile now, so I can't calc, but is there really a difference between Low Sweep and Wake-Up Slap? Also lol Wake-Up Slap

Also, would the semi-reliable recovery from Drain Punch be too much for CAP21? That's a question we should also consider...

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Pursuit: I'm really torn between this move, but I am leaning towards no. On hand, Snobalt does make a very good point when saying that beating Psychic types is pretty moot, since we kinda already do that right now with Head Smash, or in the case of Mega Metagross or Mega Slowbro, does nothing. Considering that even on the switch, a SE Pursuit does less than our STAB Head Smash (160 Pursuit vs 225 Head Smash) However, one thing I would like to say is that I really don't like the concept of creating a 50/50 situation with the Lati twins

252 Atk Mega CAP Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 304-358 (101.6 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mega CAP Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 216-256 (72.2 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega CAP Pursuit (40 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 110-130 (36.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mew Head Smash vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 276-325 (86.5 - 101.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega CAP Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 196-232 (61.4 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega CAP Pursuit (40 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 100-118 (31.3 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Giving CAP21 Pursuit kinda creates a situation similar to Bisharp (Either stay in and potentially die or switch out and potentially take a shit ton of damage.) I understand that we aren't really going to be beaten hard by the lati twins, but at the same time I don't like creating a 50/50 situation.

Another thing I want to mention is that unless we are going up against Banded (Which actually isn't to safe to switch into unless we are at near full, so we would have to probably lose a mon), Talonflame can just U-Turn out, and it is already threatened heavily by Stealth Rock. It does help against Mega Zard X though.

Sticky Web:

MOD EDIT: Removed YT video meme. Hopefully for obvious reasons...

Dear Mods: I understand the edit, but could you please not remove my opinion on something next time

- Da Pizza Man

I would prefer if we don't have thismmove for obvious reasons

Bulldoze: I do not see any problem with this move, against all of the relevant Steel types in OU, only Magnezone and Excadrill take enough damage from Bulldoze in order for the move to be worth considering, and the speed dropping effect actually helps out bisharp, so apart from Speed control Bulldoze won't really do anything, so I think its fine to have

Drill Run: I also think Drill Run is a good option for us. Unlike Bulldoze, it does enough damage to actually be worth considering to be using, while at the same time it still allows Steel types to threaten us but we don't get hard countered by them.

252 Atk Mega CAP Drill Run vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 180-212 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mew: 354-416 (100.2 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mew: 211-250 (59.7 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega CAP Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 272-320 (64.1 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mew Drill Run vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 270-318 (74.7 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega CAP: 708-832 (200.5 - 235.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mew Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 180-214 (44.5 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mew: 218-258 (61.7 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[LightningLord2]

Of the Fighting-Type coverage discussed, I'd like Brick Break the most. It's decent enough to warrant a moveslot but doesn't let us break through neutrally hit Steel-Types. Its secondary effect is also not overly powerful. However, Focus Punch is worth a consideration. While clearly a very dangerous threat to Steel-Types switching in, it's rather ineffective at threatening Steel-Types already in battle and doesn't do too much to most of the things we try to threaten.

Another move I support is Rapid Spin - Since we're already immune to hazards and remove Toxic Spikes on switch-in and we're also capable of forcing switches, a spinning role is something CAP 21 is very good at fulfilling.

I didn't read it yet, but I think Disable could be problematic - it allows us to switch into a Ground-Type with an Air Balloon (say Garchomp) and outspeed and force it out as Ground-Types usually focus on a single move to threaten us (it's not gonna work with Excadrill thankfully). It could also put Scizor and the Latis in a bind.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

Okay guys, THIS is how you are supposed to propose an edit.

Name: Shots Fired
Move 1: Head Smash
Move 2: Gunk Shot
Move 3: Parting Shot/U-Turn
Move 4: Wood Hammer/Pursuit
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Mega Stone
EVS: 4 HP /252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

-So I think I better explain Parting Shot. The issue with U-Turn is multiple-fold. Firstly, it's not very good against the things we want to answer. A bad predict can leave us dealing no damage to Char-Y or Talon or Clefable, while they get free set-up. Secondly, there are far better U-Turn pivots that we don't necessarily want to be competing with. Thirdly, we don't actually want this colliding favorably with Metagross and Bisharp. Parting Shot does cripple the Water and Fire types we want to tussle with, since most of the monsters we want to counter are in fact offensive. Parting Shot has almost no competition in the format, with Pangoro being the only other user. Metagross ignores the Parting Shot with Clear Body, and Bisharp actually gets buffed from it. Parting Shot is surprisingly good both for our concept and current build.-U-turn lets us pivot out of Steel-types without directly dealing with them; they still wall CAP.
-Wood Hammer is how we beat the Water types in the format. The only thing on the list that we want to be threatened by that is in turned threatened by Wood Hammer is Diggersby, as Hippowdon won't fall to it, as Khosro's calcs show (less than half a percent chance of a 2HKO, and can't deal damage enough to stop the Slack Off+Leftovers).
-Pursuit punishes Talon, Charizard, and the like for trying to run from your Head Smash. It's not as good as some other moves, but it's worth considering.
-Don't really need to explain the STAB.
-Head Smash wrecks Fire- and Flying-types, and pretty much everything that doesn't resist it.
-Gunk Shot hits Fairy-types

I think Parting Shot is too defining, and it detracts away from our offensive capabilities too much; the concept is Typing Underdog, and Parting Shot doesn't really do anything for our typing. It might help us switch out more easily and has utility to help teammates, but largely the effect is too great and overshadows our offensive route. Using U-turn instead is more feasible, as it lets us pivot but still makes sure we're careful on what is sent in next. U-turn's utility isn't as moveset defining as Parting Shot and still keeps the offensive powers of our STABs in the spotlight (in a nut shell, parting shot is insanely good; too good).

__________________________________________________________

The above is merely an example of how to propose edits. Do not take this as me sharing my personal opinions; this post is not meant to go towards any sort of ICC. Instead, note the format used; unattributed quote tags of the original or current moveset, with subtractions done with a strikethrough, additions added in bold, and comments on the changes made below the quote.

Edits themselves should mostly be done for sets in the Under Consideration category on the second post of this thread. However, if one wishes to propose edits for Accepted movesets, then that is acceptable as well, but note that very solid reasoning will be expected since any sets in the Accepted category are already taken to have the Intelligent Community Consensus. If a set has not been added to either list in the second post of the thread, one should use their better judgement and only propose edits for it if it has received some discussion beforehand, or if one wishes to add a minor edit rather than submitting a new spread already (note that if you're only changing very small things such as one move compared to a pre-submitted moveset, then making an edit is preferred).

General commentary on the effectiveness of moves from sets already submitted does not need to follow this editing format. However, if you suggest a subtraction or addition to a set, then the above format is preferred since it gathers the main points together in an easy to read fashion. So, if you were to simply post on why you disliked sticky web in general, you do not need to propose a moveset edit. However, if you see a moveset that you really like, but Sticky Web is the only thing you dislike about it, or if you see a moveset you really like but wish it had another option slashed on, then making a formal edit like the one above would be ideal.

Please feel free to read the OP, too.

 

[Blackdrakon30]

Name: Offensive Entry Hazard Setter
Move 1: Head Smash
Move 2: Gunk Shot
Move 3: Hidden Power Ice Pursuit/Rapid Spin
Move 4: Toxic Spikes / Stealth Rock / Spikes
Ability: Mold Breaker
Item: Mega Stone
EVs: 168 Atk / 88 SpA / 252 Spe EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Naive Adamant/Jolly

• Head Smash for obvious reasons: Insane power, primary STAB, and so on.
• Gunk Shot as secondary STAB, but will not be used often. For Grass and Fairy types, pretty much.
• This move is tricky. Pursuit is an option for Pursuit Trapping fleeing psychic types instead of laying hazards during every switch. I think it works best with Stealth Rock due to it only requiring one turn to place. Rapid Spin is another option if you have something like Charizard-X on your team, something that hates hazards. So then you could use Rapid Spin as an option for during switches once Stealth Rock is placed. I feel Rapid Spin is very pro-concept because we are trying to focus on positives of our typing, and one is we remove toxic hazards with poison type. So what better way to match this than with Rapid Spin, for general hazard removal? Finally, you could put a physical coverage move on, but we don't seem to have decided on a safe physical coverage to give out yet.
• Finally, the hazard part. Stealth Rock I think works best with Pursuit because it is quick and one-turn, allowing you to wear down fleeing opponents with Pursuit on the other switches. Toxic Spikes I think goes best with Rapid Spin, because it is still fairly easy to set up, as it only requires two turns, and Rapid Spin does not have to be used during every switch, so there is no pressure for quick hazards. Finally, Spikes. Spikes I think work best with a Physical coverage because you would use Spikes during the first three switches, while the coverage helps more against whatever switches in.
• Hidden Power Ice was removed because in previously shown calculations I demonstrated that no Garchomp, Hippowdon, or Zygarde gives a shit about Hidden Power Ice non-STAB off of an 85 Special Attack. Pursuit, Rapid Spin, or Physical coverage I think would be a better option.
• The EVs were changed so it would still be maxed speed, while the rest go into attack to get crucial KOs on opponents. The spare 4 go into SpD for extra bulk.
• The nature was changed from Naive to Adamant or Jolly so that you are lowing SpA rather than SpD, and you raise either speed or attack. Either works.

I am pretty sure I submitted this right?

Mod Edit: No, you did not bold your additions.
Done. Thanks for letting me know

Because we don't have Magic Guard on the Mega forme that cancels out Submission's recoil. Also lol Submission

Also, Low Sweep has a better additional effect at the expense of 5BP compared to Wake-Up Slap. On mobile now, so I can't calc, but is there really a difference between Low Sweep and Wake-Up Slap? Also lol Wake-Up Slap

Also, would the semi-reliable recovery from Drain Punch be too much for CAP21? That's a question we should also consider...

Lol ik both are such sucky moves but it would be hilarious if they were competitively used lol since the recoil on Submission is canceled by Magic Guard (totally forgot about that) it just makes it a low accuracy sucky fighting type move rather than a low accuracy fighting type move with recoil Seems like we could maybe use it...

Low Kick: I don't love the hits it gets on Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Mega Aggron (Rarely seen, but still). It seems a little over the top in some areas.

 

[Enigami]

Hidden Power Ice was removed because in previously shown calculations I demonstrated that no Garchomp, Hippowdon, or Zygarde gives a shit about Hidden Power Ice non-STAB off of an 85 Special Attack. Pursuit, Rapid Spin, or Physical coverage I think would be a better option.

Uh, say what?

88 SpA Mega CAP 21 Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 192-228 (53.7 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
88 SpA Mega CAP 21 Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Garchomp: 180-212 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
88 SpA Mega CAP 21 Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 204-240 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Top 2 used mons in OU, both of which can be 2HKO'd by HP Ice and screw over CAP otherwise.

They don't care it they're scarfed, but...
Garchomp Choice Scarf usage: 6.583%
Landorus-Therian Choice Scarf usage: 29.175%

More often than not, CAP is going to outspeed and KO them if they switch into HP Ice.

Plus:
88 SpA Mega CAP 21 Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 176-208 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO

I do think other sets would probably be better, but saying HP Ice is worthless is flat out wrong.

Edit:

The EVs were changed so it would still be maxed speed, while the rest go into attack to get crucial KOs on opponents. The spare 4 go into SpD for extra bulk.

What crucial KOs? My calcs that you've obviously ignored showed it still fully threatened everything it was supposed to, except especially bulky variants of Altaria and Manaphy that only Adamant Mega CAP truly threaten anyway.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Lol ik both are such sucky moves but it would be hilarious if they were competitively used lol since the recoil on Submission is canceled by Magic Guard (totally forgot about that) it just makes it a low accuracy sucky fighting type move rather than a low accuracy fighting type move with recoil Seems like we could maybe use it...

Low Kick: I don't love the hits it gets on Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Mega Aggron (Rarely seen, but still). It seems a little over the top in some areas.

Why? Mega Aggron is super irrelevant in OU, Heatran is already hit hard by our Head Smash (Since it doesn't resist it), and Ferrothorn already OHKOs us with Gyro Ball and being hard walled by it is dangerous.

Although I do have to agree with you that Low Kick is to much, as OHKOing Bisharp is really not something I want to see, and part of the reason why I oppose fighting coverage in general (Ground coverage is so much better imo if we want something to deal with Steel types), although if somebody can show me that really isn't a problem the I will support Low Kick

 

[DetroitLolcat]

A bit of commentary on some of the sets that have been proposed so far:

The offensive pivot set is better off without Parting Shot. Parting Shot is, on paper, an amazing move that can disrupt an opponent's team like no other move in OU. Dropping an opponent's Attack and Special Attack plus getting a free switch can guarantee setup opportunities for teammates extremely well. For example, if an opponent switches in a Metagross or Garchomp into CAP21 (as our threatlist says) and we Parting Shot out, we could potentially bring in a sweeper like Manaphy or Talonflame and get a setup opportunity that we really didn't deserve. Parting Shot turns a lot of opposing counters into setup bait for our teammates. Parting Shot, in my opinion, also shifts a lot of focus to the base form because of how it can be abused with Regenerator. Think of how annoying Tornadus-T is with its Life Orb U-Turns that get healed by Regenerator. Now picture Parting Shot on CAP21: if an opponent switches in Metagross or Garchomp they're now setup bait for something like Mega Gyarados, Altaria, or Pinsir. Parting Shot is a move that really needs to be planned for before the Movepool stage of a CAP: it's essentially a far better U-Turn that turns opposing counters into setup bait. Parting Shot would make CAP21 an unfair Pokemon to play against.

Pursuit, however, is fine with me. I was originally wary of it because Psychic-types are supposed to threaten CAP21 but I don't see Pursuit being all that effective on CAP21 anyway. The only Pokemon it's really going to trap are Latias and Latios, who we already outspeed and destroy with Head Smash. When we decided on high power and a 114 Base Speed, we decided that being threatened by Latios and Latias isn't important. Alakazam still outspeeds and attacks CAP21, and it's rare that Slowbro or Mew are really going to care about being Pursuit trapped. I'm okay with Pursuit being allowed because I don't think it's going to see use on CAP21 unless we really limit its coverage and support options.

On the offensive utility set, why is Volt Tackle being considered? It seems like a less pro-concept Wood Hammer. It's worse against some Water-types (Rotom-W) and 2HKOs Skarmory, who's supposed to threaten CAP21. With the way things are going, Wood Hammer's probably going to end up on this CAP. If we have Wood Hammer, then I don't see what Volt Tackle does except remove one of our counters. Head Smash already comes dangerously close to 2HKOing Skarmory and actually will 2HKO the specially defensive set. If we want Skarmory to be a threat we cannot reasonably put Volt Tackle on this Pokemon. I don't know why Volt Tackle is really being considered when Wood Hammer already does what we need Volt Tackle to do. I fully agree with jas61292 on Volt Tackle.

Nuzzle is a move that I just don't get. Is throwing out paralysis really that useful? More importantly, is it something we want? If we have access to Stealth Rock and Toxic, will people even use Nuzzle? I couldn't imagine it being that useful unless we really gimped our coverage and support options. Sure it lets us paralyze Magic Bouncers, but Sableye really doesn't care and Espeon/Mega Diancie just get killed anyway. It's a better Thunder Wave no doubt, but I just don't get why paralysis is the flavor of the day on CAP21.

I've said a lot on Jump Kick, and while I don't think CAP21 absolutely needs it, it does need a way to at least rough Steel-types up. CAP21 cannot just let Excadrill come in and spin away hazards or let Ferrothorn come in and make it rain Spikes on its side of the field. Personally, I think Jump Kick is the answer. But if Jump Kick is too powerful, how about something like Drain Punch or Sky Uppercut? I don't believe CAP21 should have reliable recovery. We've given CAP21 a lot of interesting ways to preserve its HP, such as Regenerator and Magic Guard. I would be okay with CAP21 picking up a niche way to restore HP. Drain Punch will 3HKO Ferrothorn about half of the time with Stealth Rock down, but if Ferrothorn Protects then CAP21 can't 3HKO. Drain Punch + Head Smash will not KO bulky Excadrill without Stealth Rock, and has a negligible chance to do so with it. If restoring HP is completely off the table, then how about Sky Uppercut? Sky Uppercut from Jolly CAP21 cannot OHKO Excadrill, will only 3HKO Ferrothorn (who can avoid the 3HKO with smart use of Protect), and still doesn't outdamage a resisted Head Smash. I still believe Jump Kick is what CAP21 needs to successfully affect Steel-type Pokemon, but I believe weaker Fighting-type coverage is better than none.

Edit to All-Out Attacker set:

Name: All-Out Attacker
Move 1: Head Smash
Move 2: Gunk Shot
Move 3: Wood Hammer
Move 4: Jump Kick / Drain Punch / Sky Uppercut
Ability: Regenerator -> Magic Guard
Item: Mega Stone
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

 

[LightningLord2]

Is Knock Off still up for discussion? If we're out to be an offensive Spinner, it can't hurt to have a means to hit Ghost-Types without gambling on our 80% accurate move that has little PP. It would also be able to cripple Garchomp and Ferrothorn a little and doesn't have to take any recoil. Having additional pressure on Psychic-Types is not an issue given that most of them don't want to switch into us (except Mega Slowbro, who takes even less damage from it than even STAB Stone Edge would).

 

[Project_Mars]

Nuzzle/Thunder Wave - I am also curious as to why there's so much talk about giving it Nuzzle. Paralysis will help out the team, but it doesn't really affect anything it can deal with anything CAP can handle or almost handle too much to warrent it. Sticking with Toxic as the main status move for CAP seems to be the best way to go: it has perfect accuracy, cripples defensive pokemon by keeping them from staying in too long, and can be applied to multiple pokemon at the same time.

Taunt - I wonder exactly how Taunt doesnt fit the concept to well? CAP's Speed would allow it to shut down incoming entry hazards and pivot out as well as keeping Mega Sableye from getting any traction due to being able to taunt through Magic Bounce. About the only counter that is severely impacted by Taunt is Skarmory, who either has a really easy time to begin with or a much more difficult time depending on which attacking move it has. It seems like it is fairly pro-concept since it can handle certain threats that would be useful to deal with, while not doing too much to hinder the agreed upon counters list.

Reflect/Light Screen - I do not see much of a reason why we can't allow CAP to have access to one or both of these, I do doubt the effectiveness of being able to Dual Screen. Reflect would probably work better than Light Screen for CAP, since it does patch up the physical bulk a bit more, so if we were to pick one from these two, I would vote for it.

Entry Hazards - Stealth Rock for sure, Toxic Spikes does not seem like a bad idea on paper. Spikes and Sticky Web seem like a No. Toxic Spikes usage may be skewed in the play test due to CAP being fairly prevalent, but outside of that there shouldnt be an overabundance of poison-types to absorb the Toxic Spikes. That said, CAP would more likely want to not have to sit and apply both stacks, since it is fairly easy to push it out.

Knock Off - A Super Effective Knock Off that knocks an item off still doesnt hit as hard as a Neutral Head Smash (195 base power vs 225 base power), so it shouldn't change too many matchups any. I say Knock Off should be safe for consideration. Knock Off could fit fairly well on a pivot set as an alternative to Pursuit: both are good at punishing predicted switches. Only difference is rather than dealing a ton of damage to the outgoing pokemon, this deals a bit of damage to the incoming one, and cripples them by knocking of an item.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

The following post is me sharing my opinions; I am NOT acting as a TLT here.

On Nuzzle:

In order to understand the nuzzle "hype", you have to understand the context of the spread it is on. The attacking moves on the set, bar volt tackle which was supposed to be extremely niche at that, allow Steel Types to do a great job of stopping CAP21. However, multiple people have shared concerns that getting completely stopped by Steel-types is not something that is ideal, since it would lower the viablity of CAP21 overall. As a compromise, many people have been trying to submit either offensive or utility moves that at the very least make Steel-types wary of a free switch in. Nuzzle is one of the more effective utility moves proposed in this regard that does NOT score a super effective hit on Steel-types. Coupled with Wood Hammer, Nuzzle was also paired with something that helps make sure Excadrill won't blindy switch in either. Metagross in particular does not want to switch into Nuzzle; it can handle a Low Sweep and ignore the speed drop if he hasn't yet Mega Evolved, but it cannot ignore the paralysis debuffs.

Nuzzle was proposed as a way to make Steel-types not get a free switch-in, to not hit Steel-types super effectively, and to provide relatively stable utility. Toxic may seem like a more logical status option, but it does not affect Steel-types at all, which I think have rightfully received a lot of needed attention.

Also note that, despite all of this, it received a secondary slash to Stealth Rock. From the very beginning, it was not meant to be a primary option. But as a secondary option, I certainly believe it does have merits, as explained above.

EDIT: While Nuzzle does cripple some Steels like Megagross, it is balanced by the fact that CAP21 still cannot defeat them alone. Furthermore, some mons like Ferrothorn still don't even care about it all that much. Nuzzle is far from an exhaustive "let's go get dem steel types" sort of move, but still undeniable provides some utility against many of them.

EDIT 2: Nuzzle is a superior Thunder Wave. While it's advantages aren't enormous, they still exist; bypassing Magic Bounce, Taunt, and causing super super minor chip damage. While it is true these advantages while not come into play in most situations, I just don't get the arguments that prefer Thunder Wave over Nuzzle. Nuzzle is better. This isn't some flavor thread. If we deem one to be more useful to the CAP, then we should use it.

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

Paralysis: While I have no objection to Nuzzle being available per se, I see little reason why people would opt for it over Thunder Wave when the base form has access to Mold Breaker. Furthermore, most of the Pokemon in OU that learn Taunt either get OHKO'd by Head Smash or wouldn't bother using it when they could just hit CAP 21 for super-effective damage.

Ground coverage: While I don't think Earthquake is as bad as some are making it out to be, Drill Run still works well for this CAP's purposes. Giving Excadrill and Mega Metagross free opportunities to come in without having to think twice is not something I believe is desirable, but both can still threaten the CAP, as Drill Run fails to OHKO bulky Excadrill and Mega Metagross.

Bulky Boosting: I am not necessarily opposed to the CAP getting any boosting moves, but I think it's too much for something with Regenerator and a Stealth Rock neutrality to have both reliable recovery and Bulk Up. The only two Pokemon in OU with both of those options are Talonflame, which has a 4x Rock weakness, and Mega Medicham, which has too many better moves to run to fill two of its move slots with Bulk Up and Recover. As such, I'd suggest the following revisions.

Bulky Booster

Name: Bulky Booster
-Head Smash
-Recover / clones Gunk Shot
-Bulk Up / Curse
-Gunk Shot / Refresh Drill Run / Wood Hammer / Refresh
Ability: Regenerator
Item: CAP21ite
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpDef / 4 Atk
Nature: Careful / Sassy

• Head Smash is to be spammed when defensive checks are removed
• Investment synergizes with boosting move and minimizes Scald damage
• Avoids the OHKO from Choice Band Azumarill's Aqua Jet, outspeeds the set even with Sassy Nature assuming no Curses
• Needs several boosts to survive Earthquakes (252 Landorus-T can OHKO even at +3)
• Doesn't get 2HKOed by Keldeo's Scald
• Gunk Shot provides a STAB that can OHKO Fairy-types like Mega Altaria
• Last slot is either anti-Fairy coverage (OHKO vs. Mega Altaria) Ground coverage for Steel-types that resist Head Smash (e.g. Excadrill, Mega Metagross), Grass coverage for Keldeo and Ground-types (e.g. Hippowdon), or removing the attack drop from burns

Probably not the best set, but worth thinking about.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

Moveset submissions are now open once more. If there's another flood of submissions, expect submissions to be closed soonish (i.e. within 24 hours).

Do not submit eerily similar spreads to the ones suggested so far. Please.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Now that I've done some calcs, I think I have a slightly better idea on what this mon actually needs to not be trash.

Name: Results
Move 1: Head Smash
Move 2: Gunk Shot
Move 3: Drain Punch
Move 4: U-Turn
Abilities: Regenerator
Item: CAPite
EVs: 40 HP/232 ATK/12 SP DEF/224 SPEED
Nature: Jolly

So firstly, let's talk about the spread. 224 Speed EVs let's you outspeed everything that hits 350 Speed, which is most of the format. An alternative set could go 248 to outspeed specifically Serperior. 232 Attack EVs get's you to OHKO non-Mega Latios, and there really aren't any benchmarks between 232 and 252 that get you any additional OHKOs or 2HKOs. 40 HP gets you just above the barrier where Choice Banded Azumarill OHKOs you with Aqua Jet, while also being evenly divisible by three so that you get additional Regenerator healing. The 12 Special Defense gives you a Barrier against Keldeo's Hydro Pump.

Drain Punch I'd like to discuss more, since it's the only Fighting/Ground utility move that actually offers us any actual utility. As you can see, I effectively outspeed most of OU already, and haven't even given a full 252 to my Speed stat. There's really only Tornadus and Weavile that we get to beat in the Speed race, but Bulldoze is dodged by Tornadus, and tossing Bulldoze at Weavile isn't actually safe for us. Drill Run also really doesn't do anything. It's not even that great against the Steel types we're trying to beat. Drain Punch, on the other hand, gives us quite a bit we couldn't actually do before.

Our first problem is that everything in the game does way too much damage to CAP. Even resisted hits do far more damage than we should feel comfortable with. I've tried building bulky sets for CAP, but every time I tried, everything still registered as either an OHKO or a 2HKO, and not a small 2HKO either. Our typing simply has too many exploitable weaknesses. Between the Psychic, Scald, Hydro Pump, Earth Power, Flash Cannon, and Psyshock especially, we can't actually wall any special attackers our substantially above average Special Defense. Heck, the only mon with a super-effective move we can avoid the 2HKO from if we go 252/252 Calm Nature is very specifically 0 Special Attack EV Rotom-W and Scarf Magnezone. Specs Magenzone and invested Rotom still get the 2HKO. At the same time, only a little more than 1/4 of all Special attackers in OU don't carry a super-effective move against CAP. That means that despite our rather inflated defenses, we'll still get worn down extremely fast, especially given that we only have defenses that won't get us steamrolled in Mega form, and only have healing in base form. Drain Punch helps alleviate that by giving us a move that won't completely heal us, but will at least give us enough health that we don't die before accomplishing anything.

Our second problem is Weavile. It's not really that intuitive why Weavile is a back-breaker for CAP, so I'll break it down. At base, it doesn't look that intimidating for CAP.

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Base Form: 273-321 (75.2 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mega Form: 218-257 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Suppose we didn't Mega-volve. In that case, we actually need to take Head Smashes Recoil to beat Weavile, setting you too low to beat anything, and occasionally kills you on the spot. Even after switching out and coming back, you still only have at most 40% of your health, which takes away your ability to switch in on anything in base form, thus taking your ability to heal. Suppose you did Mega-Evolve to beat Weavile. It's basically the same situation. At best, you have 40% health, and you no longer have the capacity to gain health. Not only does Drain Punch fix our inability to heal, it also means Weavile can't just toss all that damage and then let Talonflame finish the job. It no longer becomes a functional 1 for 1 out of a mon we're supposed to threaten, and instead becomes a very dangerous set-up situation to gain back health, which means we can force the switch that this mon should theoretically have forced anyway, but couldn't.

U-Turn gives us the ability to get out of combat without giving up pressure. Given that this mon's only real positive is the pressure it exerts, and that it has to switch away from the vast majority of mons in OU, this is a significant boon for CAP that it really can't function without.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

The following post is me not acting as TLT; just a regular ol' folk.

Name: Offensive Utility
Move 1: Head Smash
Move 2: Gunk Shot
Move 3: Wood Hammer / Volt Tackle U-turn
Move 4: Stealth Rock / U-turn / Nuzzle
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Mega Stone
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Head Smash is CAP 21's strongest STAB option, benefiting from its Mega ability, Magic Guard, allowing it to use the move without taking recoil.
• Gunk Shot is CAP 21's other main STAB, hitting Fairy-types such as Clefable, Azumarill, etc hard.
• The third slot Woodhammer enhances CAP 21's matchup against Water-types such as Keldeo, Slowbro, etc, hitting them harder than its STAB moves do. Wood Hammer is usually the superior choice in this case, as it also provides CAP 21 with a way of chunking Ground-types, which it would otherwise struggle with due to its STAB combo being resisted by them. At the cost of coverage against Ground-types, Volt Tackle can be used to reliably 2HKOing Skarmory after SR damage, while retaining SE coverage against most Water-types. Both of these moves are notable for their and has a reliable 100% accuracy compared to CAP 21's main STAB moves, and also benefit from Magic Guard preventing recoil damage.
• U-turn allows CAP 21 to switch out of unfavorable match-ups; it gives it the ability to flee from Steels without doing much damage to them in the process. CAP321 takes very very heavy damage from super effective hits, and being able to outspeed and switch out without losing momentum is pretty big. U-turn also plays well with both Regenerator and Magic Guard, as CAP21 has the tools to switch in and out repeatedly.
• The last slot provides utility and allows CAP 21 to support its team and take advantage of forced switches. SR is a straightforward way of doing this and provides helpful team support, and CAP 21 easily finds opportunities to set it up courtesy of its good offensive presence and Speed tier. Nuzzle is, for all intents and purposes, a superior Thunder Wave; it cannot be bounced back by Magic Bounce, isn't affected by Taunt, and on a lesser note, gets very slight chip damage. Doesn't help vs Ground-types at all, but it provides CAP 21 with a method of crippling several Steel-types such as Scizor, Metagross, among other potential switch-ins as they attempt to come in on a resisted hit.
• Regenerator allows CAP 21 to pivot in and out more freely in base form earlier in the match.
• Jolly + Max Attack / Speed takes full advantage of CAP 21's Speed tier while retaining as much offensive presence as possible.

The main structure of this this set is 3 Attacks + a utility move to take advantage of forced switches. The STAB choices are fairly straightforward. I'm currently opting for a STAB to more heavily threaten Water-types, and I really prefer Wood Hammer to do this. While yes, it does hit Ground-types SE, it's only a neutral hit against several common ones (Garchomp, Lando-T, Exca, etc), allowing them to serve as decent -> solid checks (depending on bulk/longevity), and mixed wall Hippo can still avoid the 2HKO (with rocks, it's like a 33% chance to 2HKO, which isn't over the top, and Hippo can be EVed to survive this). Check the previous calcs above regarding Wood Hammer, they're applicable here. The main purpose of Grass over Electric coverage is ensuring CAP 21 isn't hard walled by Ground-types, and it doesn't do so in an unreasonably powerful fashion, so I feel it'd be an acceptable option for dealing with Water-types more effectively. Electric coverage provides the same main benefit of Grass coverage (hitting Water-types super effectively), while also providing a stronger hit on Skarmory. CAP 21 specifically needs Volt Tackle for this type of coverage to be worth it, as the big reason to use it is reliably 2HKOing Skarmory after SR damage, which Wild Charge can't do, and it's outdamaged by a neutral Head Smash anyway.

So, my proposed edit here is essentially changing Volt Tackle into U-turn. Many people have pointed about that potentially 2HKOing Skarmory is too powerful. U-turn has been gaining support throughout the thread. Normally I'd say that a generic switching move is too... well, generic for a project as focused as CAP, but in this instance I think it works. It doesn't mess with our threatlist too much (jas made a great post explaining this earlier in regard to psychic types), and it plays well with our abilities.

 

[Korski]

Moveset Submission

Name: Rock Polish
Move 1: Head Smash
Move 2: Gunk Shot
Move 3: Wood Hammer / Jump Kick
Move 4: Rock Polish
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Mega Stone
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Nature: Adamant

• Rock Polish makes CAP the fastest thing in OU and an effective late-game cleaner as a direct result (until that 80% accuracy hits you in the face). Best to save this teammate until the opponent is cleared of major priority users and/or defensive checks.
• CAP is stupid strong and has good offensive pressure for netting free turns to set up.
• Single coverage focuses on Water+Ground or Steel-types, choose your weapon.
• EVs: extra padding in HP means CB Azumarill and offensive Mega Scizor can never KO from full health; 305 Speed in Mega form outruns Jolly Sand Rush Excadrill as well as 160+ Spe Manaphy; 285 Speed in base form outruns max-speed base 80s like Hoopa-Unbound and offensive Altaria. If you don't care about the base 80s or the base CAP, you can run 100 HP / 252 Atk / 156 Spe Adamant for an extra Regenerator point and a smidgeon of extra bulk, but remember you'd only be speed-tying Manaphy in Mega form before you boost and you'd actually underspeed the offensive base 80s unless you are already Mevo'd. A third alternative would be the standard 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe Jolly spread, which retains the advantages of 114 Spe prior to setup or if the speed boosts are otherwise not required for the match.
• Power difference b/t Jolly and Adamant: Adamant guarantees the OHKO on Sand Rush Excadrill [Jump Kick], Jolly has an 81% chance to OHKO with Stealth Rock damage. Adamant OHKOs Mega Lopunny [Jump Kick] w/SR (75% chance w/o), Jolly has a 50% chance to OHKO w/SR (19% w/o). Adamant has a 56% chance to OHKO 96/0 Manaphy [Wood Hammer] w/SR, Jolly cannot OHKO. Adamant has a 94% chance to OHKO Keldeo [Wood Hammer] outright, Jolly has an 81% chance to OHKO w/SR (44% w/o). Adamant guarantees the OHKO on 72/0 Latias [Head Smash] w/SR (69% w/o), Jolly has an 88% to OHKO w/SR (13% w/o). Adamant has a 79% chance to 2HKO 252/88+ Ferrothorn [Jump Kick] w/SR, Jolly has a 6% chance. I'm sure there are more good examples but that should cover some of the big differences.

 

[Empress]

Let's give this a shot, shall we?

Name: Offensive Utility
Move 1: Head Smash
Move 2: Gunk Shot
Move 3: Wood Hammer / U-turn
Move 4: Stealth Rock U-turn / Nuzzle / Pursuit / Spikes
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Mega Stone
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Head Smash is CAP 21's strongest STAB option, benefiting from its Mega ability, Magic Guard, allowing it to use the move without taking recoil.
• Gunk Shot is CAP 21's other main STAB, hitting Fairy-types such as Clefable, Azumarill, etc hard.
• The third slot Wood Hammer enhances CAP 21's matchup against Water-types such as Keldeo, Slowbro, etc, hitting them harder than its STAB moves do. Wood Hammer is usually the superior choice in this case, as it also provides CAP 21 with a way of chunking Ground-types, which it would otherwise struggle with due to its STAB combo being resisted by them. At the cost of coverage against Ground-types, Volt Tackle can be used to reliably 2HKOing Skarmory after SR damage, while retaining SE coverage against most Water-types. Both of these moves are notable for their and has a reliable 100% accuracy compared to CAP 21's main STAB moves, and also benefit from Magic Guard preventing recoil damage.
• U-turn allows CAP 21 to switch out of unfavorable match-ups; it gives it the ability to flee from Steels without doing much damage to them in the process. CAP 21 takes very very heavy damage from super effective hits, and being able to outspeed and switch out without losing momentum is pretty big. U-turn also plays well with both Regenerator and Magic Guard, as CAP21 has the tools to switch in and out repeatedly.
• The last slot provides utility and allows CAP 21 to support its team and take advantage of forced switches. SR Spikes is a straightforward way of doing this and provides helpful team support, and CAP 21 easily can finds opportunities to set it up courtesy of its good offensive presence and Speed tier. On the downside, it also gets forced out easily, so setting up any sort of entry hazard isn't the easiest job in the world. Fortunately, though, if it doesn't MEvo right away, it can pivot in and out and have multiple opportunities to set up all three layers. Spikes works better than Stealth Rock imo, as this mon should be able to do something to Steel-types even if it can't beat them directly. Even if CAP 21 can't get all three Spikes down, two layers or even one layer are/is a peg up from the 1/16 damage most Steels take from SR. (Yeah, pretend the Spikes mention is at the end of this paragraph.) Nuzzle is, for all intents and purposes, a superior Thunder Wave; it cannot be bounced back by Magic Bounce, isn't affected by Taunt, and on a lesser note, gets very slight chip damage. Doesn't help vs Ground-types at all, but it provides CAP 21 with a method of crippling several Steel-types such as Scizor, Metagross, among other potential switch-ins as they attempt to come in on a resisted hit. Pursuit allows CAP 21 to punish foes that it forces out, such as Talonflame, Mega Charizard X, and others, possibly bringing them into a teammate's KO range and even picking them off completely if they're weakened enough.
• Regenerator allows CAP 21 to pivot in and out more freely in base form earlier in the match.
• Jolly + Max Attack / Speed takes full advantage of CAP 21's Speed tier while retaining as much offensive presence as possible.

Can I get some opinions on Spikes? It's kinda fallen under the radar, so do you guys think it's a good idea? Why or why not?

 

[vyomov]

I have one set to propose, as detailed below:

Offensive Coil Booster(Base form):
Name: Bulky Base Booster
Move 1: Gunk Shot
Move 2: Head Smash / Stone Edge
Move 3: Coil
Move 4: Wood Hammer/ Leaf Blade
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk/ 252 SpD
Nature: Careful

• Similar to the Bulky Booster Set on the Mega Form, this aims to use CAP's typing that resists types such as the Fire-type which are more common physically, alongside its good special bulk, to set up Coil, and boost its defense and offense
• I chose Coil over Bulk Up because CAP21 has a tendency to miss with 80% accurate moves, and a move that remedies this is ideal
• Stone Edge is slashed over Head Smash if the set wants to avoid the recoil due to the lack of recovery outside Leftovers; Leaf Blade is slashed over Wood Hammer for the same reason
• Wood Hammer, with no investment, still manages to 2HKO Tail Glow + RD Manaphy after SR, while with maximum investment, the set is able to avoid the 2HKO 62.5% from Manaphy's Scald after SR

Regarding Snobalt's proposed Spikes set, I do believe that Spikes is a good utility option on CAP. With Head Smash forcing out many threats, CAP can easily set one layer of spikes and allows us to, at the very least, passively pressure Steel-types that switch in. I'd also want to slash Fake Out against U-Turn and Wood Hammer though, because Fake Out could help us mitigate issues of switching in by guaranteeing safe Mega Evolution, which also helps us abuse Head Smash - while strengthening Garchomp and Ferrothorn as counters to the CAP.

 

[Alfalfa]

I feel like I have already given my opinion on Spikes, but I do agree we need to discuss it further in-depth. Leaving our CAP hard-countered by Steel and Ground-types without any form of counter-play is not something I would encourage, and we are still entirely on the same page with each other on Ground coverage / Fighting coverage / Wood Hammer. I know Snobalt stated that our CAP may have difficulties setting up Spikes due to how easily it can be forced out, but keep in mind very few Spikers can set up all three layers consistently at once (the only one we had in OU was Deo-D, which was banned for its ability to do so). Our CAP can easily force something like Clefable out and take the turn to set up at least one layer, and find another time to set up another layer, especially considering that such capability complements our CAP's ability to force switches.

 

[snake]

Moveset Submission
Name: Scarf Set
Move 1: Stone Edge/Head Smash
Move 2: Gunk Shot
Move 3: U-Turn
Move 4: Jump Kick Drain Punch
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
I am daring to propose one possible set for the Base Form: A Choice Scarved set. I feel this CAP is almost destined as a pivot. Good speed tier, respectable attacks to pressure switches, and good enough special bulk to takes hits as needed.

Stone Edge is a good STAB option for the base form, because it lacks the recoil but has a respectable base power still. Head Smash is an option if you really need it to hit harder, and regenerator heals off some of the hard recoil damage. However, it will still get worn down very quickly compared to using stone edge, as well as getting worn from taking attacks. Gunk Shot is the most powerful STAB when running Stone Edge, and can pack a punch. U-Turn, it is the classic part of pivoting as well as Volt Switch. Steel type still resists it, so it makes CAP effective at maintaining momentum for your team. Jump Kick was mentioned previously, as a coverage that allows it to hit several steel types to some extend, while not hopefully being overwhelming. Drain Punch seems to be our next coverage move.

So I'm pretty sure that we decided that Jump Kick was a little too much for CAP21. NumberCruncher made a great post about how MegaCAP21 would want Drain Punch as another coverage move; many others have pointed out that Jump Kick was a little too powerful. Base forme CAP21 shouldn't want to run Wood Hammer due to the recoil, but that's just my opinion. Anyways, since Jump Kick seems to be out for the Mega forme, Base forme can't have it either. Sure Drain Punch won't be the most powerful move, but I think the recovery could help in conjunction with Regenerator. Although the scarf set probably won't be the best set out there for CAP21, I think it's still worth looking discussing.

 

[Korski]

Here is what I've gathered from this thread regarding Spikes:

Q: "Why have Spikes?"

A1: Why not?

• Choose the best hazard for your team's needs. Spikes and Toxic Spikes are stackable.

• The last slot also helps to increase its utility as a lead, with U-Turn/Volt Switch allowing it to pivot out of bad matchups, Spikes/Toxic Spikes/Sticky Web stacking and having synergy with Stealth Rock, and Thunder Wave allowing it to spread paralysis throughout opposing teams.

• Spikes or Toxic Spikes can be stacked on the trapped Pokemon as it goes down, punishing the next switchin to the CAP.

However, Spikes can be chosen instead, since our CAP forces a lot of switches and can pressure most hazard removers.

I personally think that moveslot 4 should be condensed down to Spikes / TSpikes / Taunt (only if you can convince me that Taunt isn't going to be problematic), since the first two moves moves take the highest advantage of Pokemon like Clefable and Talonflame that this CAP is going to be forcing out a lot. Very few mons get access to either form of Spikes, and stockpiling such access with our CAP's natural traits is more pro-concept than just throwing on Stealth Rock, which any mon can do.

[Jump Kick] may be just a tad too strong, because it does net KOs with 1 layer of Spikes, and Spikes is a move in definite consideration.

Both [Encore and Spikes] with Mold Breaker are potent enough for our CAP to pressure common utility mons, especially defensive mons like bulky Talonflame, Mega Sableye, Clefable, and Mew (while I do recognize we threaten Talonflame and Clefable anyways, having some way to take advantage of them is something we want our CAP to be capable of). With our Mega forme, our CAP possesses enough fail-safe offensive pressure (ie free from residual damage) to utilize Encore or Spikes in a way that would put allow it to threaten all of its targets, especially the Water-types that are a bit more difficult for our CAP to deal with.

A2: To diminish the effectiveness of our chosen checks

[Spikes] still does what it is supposed to do in terms of pressuring Steels and Grounds while taking advantage utility mons and other Pokemon our CAP is supposed to threaten.

Spikes.

Yep. In fact, the AoA and Offensive Utility sets could very well be combined with each other to make the standard set Head Smash / Gunk Shot / Wood Hammer / Spikes. 1 layer is all we need to stop bulky Exca completely. As for Ferrothorn, it's pretty resilient, but Spikes wears it down a hell of a lot faster than Stealth Rock does, not to mention that having more than one layer of Spikes down is a realistic scenario. Let's face it, though: we can't directly beat Ferro without something crazy like Flare Blitz or High Jump Kick. Spikes would fit the bill well, giving us a fighting chance to beat unboosted (Speed-wise) Excadrill while providing good general utility.

I do believe that Spikes is a good utility option on CAP. With Head Smash forcing out many threats, CAP can easily set one layer of spikes and allows us to, at the very least, passively pressure Steel-types that switch in.

Leaving our CAP hard-countered by Steel and Ground-types without any form of counter-play is not something I would encourage... I know Snobalt stated that our CAP may have difficulties setting up Spikes due to how easily it can be forced out, but keep in mind very few Spikers can set up all three layers consistently at once (the only one we had in OU was Deo-D, which was banned for its ability to do so). Our CAP can easily force something like Clefable out and take the turn to set up at least one layer, and find another time to set up another layer, especially considering that such capability complements our CAP's ability to force switches.

I am not particularly convinced by the first group of arguments here, which essentially boil down to "Spikes is a move in the 'utility move' category." The second group of answers is more thoughtful than the first (among them, Snobalt has the best-explained position), yet they still do not fully engage in concept-related arguments. Instead, they seem more like lamentations that the CAP will not be able to plow through the 6-10 OU Pokemon that can actually switch into its STAB attacks (fewer with Wood Hammer and/or Jump Kick in the movepool, and fewer still if they have to switch in repeatedly). Our original 'Typing Underdog' concept is still relevant here because we actually already have two uncontroversially pro-concept entry hazards (Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes) to fulfill the literal 'utility' aspect of our utility counter Concept Assessment (recall that "utility counter" does not equate to "uses utility moves and also counters stuff"). Due to the rarity of quality users and the enormous value of the hazard itself, not only would Spikes overshadow these other utility moves, the amount of turns it would consume, added to the turns spent switching out (consensus seems to be that the CAP is going to be forced out quickly) or resetting layers after a Defog or Rapid Spin, would steal an incredible amount of focus away from the CAP's role as a deadly user of its Rock and Poison STABs.

At the end of the day, this CAP's #1 priority should be smashing its head into things and shooting filthy garbage at opposing Pokemon, not playing the hazards game or the non-Poison status game (I am still having trouble understanding how Nuzzle fits into either this CAP's design or its purpose). If CAP has a chance to spend a turn scouting the opponent's move, it can lay down Stealth Rock and be done with it or U-turn out to maintain momentum, but that should really be the only instance where it isn't unapologetically crushing things.

EDIT: any thoughts on Rock Polish?

 

[EternalSnowman]

My thoughts on Spikes is even if we give it to CAP 21 it's unlikely to use it anyway, since as a "utility counter" it isn't great since many of the great defensive walls and mainly those which carry defog either don't care about Spikes or are anticoncept, since Spikes mainly targets Ferrothorn and Garchomp within defensive roles since they carry no real reliable recovery, other mons are hurt by it, but not that much on defensive teams, it does let our CAP shred through offensive teams much easier since it can lay down a layer of spikes to change many 2HKO's into OHKO's and also invest more in bulk to allow it to survive things like Talon or Azu.

Rock Polish isn't extremely necessary since it would be outspeeding generally obsolete outside of Alakazam, Starmie and even then Zam has a possible sash. I guess it could allow for it a sweeping set for the Base CAP with Mold Breaker LO or something like that. Although I wouldn't be against the concept since you could run RP with 3 Attacks like Drain Punch, Dual STAB and run a lot more bulk and go Adamant>Jolly to gain more power. Overall it wouldn't be horrible, but it would be probably a niche set.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

Alright, I think it's time for me to start narrowing down this thread.

I think Korski did an excellent job summarizing the points on Spikes. What also should be added is that it certainly has had more dissenters than just Korski himself. In general, spikes has been criticized for needing more than one turn to set up fully, making it at odds with an offensive mon who would rather spend turns attacking. Korski said it best with this:

Due to the rarity of quality users and the enormous value of the hazard itself, not only would Spikes overshadow these other utility moves, the amount of turns it would consume, added to the turns spent switching out (consensus seems to be that the CAP is going to be forced out quickly) or resetting layers after a Defog or Rapid Spin, would steal an incredible amount of focus away from the CAP's role as a deadly user of its Rock and Poison STABs.

As a result, I think I'm going to go ahead and ban Spikes from further discussion; the ICC in this thread has failed to convince me of it being more applicable to our mon than SR/Toxic Spikes. Sticky Web will also be banned, since it has received practically no support outside of those who proposed it. This CAP will not learn Spikes and it will not learn Sticky Web. There has also been a lot of needless discussion regarding special attacking moves, particularly HP. However, the arguments against these moves have been much more sound; if we end up using special coverage when our sp atk is so much lower, we've failed as physical mon. The usefulness of these special attacking moves compared to physical alternatives has also been highly contested. Special Attacking coverage options will not make it onto any sets. The CAP may or may not learn some special attacking coverage flavor moves, but we are dealing with purely competitive moves at this point, which leaves no room for the special attacks proposed thus far.

I'd really like some discussion regarding fighting coverage. At this point, there are three moves I really want to see discussed more. Jump Kick has a base of supporters, but also a base of dissenters, but I feel we have no consensus here yet. Drain Punch has had a bit less discussion; does its lower BP make it better for CAP to use without risking beating its intended checks/counters? Lastly, no one has mentioned it here in the thread, but it has been brought up on PS; what about Sacred Sword? I want to stress that Sacred Sword was not considered because of its "utility" effect; in general, ignoring defense boosts is not going to be a utilized effect, since CAP already has other moves for common bulky boosters that it would even stay in on. Sacred Sword has only been proposed as a slightly weaker Jump Kick.

Do you think any of these fighting coverage moves are acceptable? How important is the BP of these fighting moves, and where should the line be drawn on what is acceptable? Or all of these moves too powerful for the CAP to utilize?

Lastly, if there's any sets you like (or edited sets), be sure to say so and explain why. This thread it utterly reliant on people sharing and supporting their opinions.