CAP 22 CAP 22 - Part 6 - Secondary Ability Discussion

[Dgvhh]

I would suggest Trace for an ability because cap22 has the offensive typing, speed and parting shot to pull off trace efficiently.

Trace not only helps take control of the current situation it is on, but also help switch in better against some mons in some situations. It can also copy an ability cap22 can use for its offensive coverage or to further aid its utility in CAP concerning parting shot.

Since stuff like Cyclohm, Cawmodore, MMedi, Tomo, TornT, Latis, Plasmanta (this is one small example) etc's abilities are very good to trace, it can help against some situations. Trace tho it is very situational, it is a blessing in disguise because it can both help its offensive typing indirectly or help with its parting shot utility in some situations or find opportunities to switch or to steal a good ability.

The main idea with Trace is to not just gain momentum for itself but to control the situation in the battleground to your favor, similar to Mega Alakazam. Trace helps him against some strats like Weather, copying speed boost etc, or against Hyper Offense pr stall, copying stuff like regen, etc. (The problem is, some abilities it has no use for, like gale wings) Cap22 however, with some balanced offensive and defensive stats and speed to pull off, can abuse trace a bit better.

How does this help with Parting Shot? It depends. It can control the situation it is in with its nice speed, and with the ability it traced or the mon in front of it, it can have a more wide choice of clicking Ps or using the new traced ability to win your opponent. It may be a situational ability, it may allow you to control the situation for your benefit.

How does this make different from Natural Cure? I cant really answer that question without saying, Natural Cure is certain when it comes to healing your status ailment amd complimenting Parting Shot. Trace compliments botb Parting Shot and its offensive typing a bit, and being able to gain momentum, find ways to control the situation, etc.

This may be a very meh argument, but i was wondering if trace can work. I still have a nagging feeling it will outclass natural cure and it wont be accepted for this reason alone.

To sum it up: Trace is a situational ability that creates new openings and situations that you can control in favor of cap22, and concerning so many ways parting shot can be used, Trace will be very useful in helping you open opportunites both offensively and helping discover parting shot's true power , unless you can prove otherwise.

List of Abilities it can abuse from Trace from popular Pokemon in CAP (listed from helping parting shot to helping it offensively)

Parting Shot:
Rebound (Colossoil)
Magic Bounce (Mega Diancie/Sableye)
Prankster (Tomohawk/Base Sableye)
Regenerator (TornT/Base Crucibelle)

Offensively:
Analytic (Volkraken)
Magic Guard (Mega Crucibelle/Clefable/Krillowatt)
Pure Power (Mega Medicham)
Guts (Colossoil)
Miscallenous Abilities that help with both or give it chances to switch in:
Weather Boosting Speed (Excadrill/Kingdra/Mega Swampert)
Type Immunities (Mega Sceptile/Cawmodore/Heatran/Lati@s,etc)

Thats all i can think of.

 

[Project_Mars]

Yeah, your feeling is right: Trace would outclass Natural Cure, although interestingly enough, I can't really think of any situations where it could negatively impact the checks/counters list outside of getting Flash Fire from something (Most likely Heatran, which iirc is something we are supposed to be able to handle?) or if any of our checks/counters is physical and has Intimidate.

It already is an ability that is used as a positive on several existing Pokemon, and can be far more consistent than you may realize. Match-up dependent, sure. But that doesn't mean you can't always find ways to get the best ability you can.

 

[Dgvhh]

Yeah, your feeling is right: Trace would outclass Natural Cure, although interestingly enough, I can't really think of any situations where it could negatively impact the checks/counters list outside of getting Flash Fire from something (Most likely Heatran, which iirc is something we are supposed to be able to handle?) or if any of our checks/counters is physical and has Intimidate.

It already is an ability that is used as a positive on several existing Pokemon, and can be far more consistent than you may realize. Match-up dependent, sure. But that doesn't mean you can't always find ways to get the best ability you can.

I get your point, but the key is Parting Shot. It can be used in so many ways:
-Reduce Damage as you go out
-Momentum Grabber
-Makes countering a pokemon easier
-Reducing the offensive pressure of a pokemon
-Easily scout for a move or set
-Predict switches
-Just because you clicked on it accidentally ;p

The thing about Parting Shot is unexplored territorry and just by talking about it, we discover the almost vastly infinate ways it can be used

• You would want an ability that is just as diverse as the multiple ways Parting Shot can be used, so thats why I chose Trace.

 

[Ba'al]

Tbh I'm not a fan of any ability that has a "one size fits all" application like Frisk or Trace because it runs the risk of overshadowing Natural Cure due to the secondary ability's diversity or reliability. I believe something niche would be best where it has uses separate from Natural Cure, but is objectively worse, at least in terms of how well it meshes with Parting Shot. It is why I support Sticky Hold. Being able to switch into Knock Off and not lose your item, especially with our typing, helps us retain momentum over our opponent and force switches. It has its uses, yet at the same time because it does not interact directly with PS and only so many Mons on a single team carry Knock Off, Natural Cure would be both more reliable due to how many ways status can be inflicted, and better to use in tandem with Parting Shot.

 

[EpicUmbreon29]

I can see Sticky Hold as a viable option, but if we want a secondary ability that is more situational than Natural Cure and directly supports the use of Parting Shot, then I would say Aroma Veil is the way to go. It makes sure that CAP 22 isn't prevented from using Parting Shot in the event that it is hit by a faster Taunt or switches into one. It doesn't do much else beyond preventing an Encore lock into an offensive move. Given that the only Pokemon faster than CAP 22 that use Encore or Taunt could reasonably be seen in battle are Syclant, Alakazam, Mega Lopunny, Aerodactyl, Crobat, Talonflame, Tornadus Therian, Weavile, and Prankster users including base Sableye, Thundurus, and Whimsicott, I don't think we would really have to worry about Natural Cure being overshadowed, considering not all of those Pokemon even run Taunt or Encore normally. Additionally, Aroma Veil doesn't really mess with our threatlist by preventing any Pokemon CAP 22 is supposed to lose to from beating it. It just lets us use Parting Shot.

 

[Project_Mars]

But then that means that the attack is preferable than Parting Shot, then going against the CAP theme of using Parting Shot.

Not exactly, Parting Shot is being used more as a switch with a benefit, so always clicking Parting Shot isn't going to really help in the long run, it is going to have to fight things.

Even then, I don't like the argument of "we need life orb to stick to the threat list" that is being used to support Sticky Hold. It doesn't seem like one that holds a lot of weight (or is an indicator that something has gone awry before we have even finished, which isn't something we know for sure at this juncture.)

 

[KeeganSkymin4444]

I particularly like Sticky Hold and Aroma Veil as abilities. Both of them offer something unique and useful for the CAP without overshadowing its primary ability. My personal suggestions are Pressure and Rattled.

Pressure helps with the CAP's role as a pivot by discouraging overuse of moves. It will allow the CAP to even more effectively switch into Dark-type moves, as it more effectively punishes them without giving it free reign over them.

Rattled, by contrast, takes advantage of two 4x resists that this CAP has to allow it better use of an otherwise mediocre ability. This CAP is clearly meant to scare out Dark types, but it's lack of bulk means that faster Dark types (like Weavile) can still stay in and KO it with their alternate STAB if it is weakened enough. Rattled provides additional safety when switching in on Dark Types (and Bug types to some extent) while also giving extra speed to escape when using Parting Shot. It also doesn't take away the point of the CAP like Competitive does, since it doesn't incentivise it to stay in against unfavorable matchups after getting a boost as much.

 

[Dgvhh]

The only problem were doing is were trying to make this thing so balanced that we throw the full power of the concept out the window and how and why it can be used out the window and turn into a plain pokemon. Ngl. Especially with "switching into Knock Off Argument." Most Knock Off users have coverage on the side that do significant damave to cap22 and if this thing doesnt have recovery + Life orb sets, its longevity and it wanting to be good longterm goes kaput.

Parting Shot with the current stats we have needs longevity over everything. Life Orb is a nice mix, but its longevity is really hard to use its concept to its full potential as it wants to.
And Since offensive Abilities arent allowed apparently, we would really want an ability that helps it keep its longevity and being able to dish out good amount of damave and parting shot do a ton of things, not just switching out and lowering offenses to your target.

However, Parting Shot + the stats it currently has and a really good offensive typing is pretty awesome in and of itself because it can use its speed and offenses to dish out good damage, rkill, clean, and switch out. A hit and runner too. However, if it has no recovery, it wont find almost no opportunities to switch in. So what we have is a really flexible Pokemon thats good offensively as a decent balancebreaker, rkiller, cleaner and hit and runner with parting shot doing lowering stats, cushioning a bit and lowering offensive pressure, and eases up so they can bring in a pokemon a bit safer and may even be a game changer with your own wincons, by gaining momentum or using the lowered stats to set up or create a wincon situation for you. That alone, is flexibility.

What we really want is an ability that is just as flexible as cap22 itself and the ways Parting Shot can be used. Thats why i chose Trace. It mixes the really good utility trace itself already has with copying good abilities to its benefit and (maybe just maybe) find opportunities to switch in despite if cap22 does or doesnt have recovery. So what we can do is make this thing extremely flexible with both parting shot and still aids its flexibility in both offensive and utility. (Since its not really meant to switch into anything with lack of recovery (we can say the same thing for keldeo but thats a diff story)) The point is, cap22 is already really good and flexible and what we want is something to reward its flexibility and freedom of choice.

Another thing too. Were focusing too much on the negative sides that we prolly can never beat anyway, and just stick to the positive sides of cap22, which is a nice offensive pokemon who has the ability of being really flexible with both offensws and utility with Parting Shot, which that alone is a very flexible way you can use it for.
So we have a good rkiller cleaner pivot pshotter and a good "annoyer" all wrapped up into 1. What we can do is strengthen cap22 (not offensively but reward its flexibility while trying to circumvent its real weakness: Lack of Longevity)

Apart from Trace, the only other ability i can really see it have success with is Poison Heal for similar reasons, but solving our longevity issue. If someone says "We have to worry about it being knocked off." The thing is, the only Knock Offers i know in both OU and CAP is Weavile TornT Colossoil Azumarill and maybe Clef [theyre prolly more but ill end it here for now] (which all of these can do a ton of damage force it out or straight out ko/wall them) So that argument is really good on paper but in practice is really bad. And after poison heal, it can have longevity and the good things and role cap22 can do already on its on with stats typing ability and Pshot, and a bit more, making it an effective stallbreaker/balancebreaker as well

 

[Tsaeb XIII]

The only problem were doing is were trying to make this thing so balanced that we throw the full power of the concept out the window and how and why it can be used out the window and turn into a plain pokemon. Ngl. Especially with "switching into Knock Off Argument." Most Knock Off users have coverage on the side that do significant damave to cap22 and if this thing doesnt have recovery + Life orb sets, its longevity and it wanting to be good longterm goes kaput.

Parting Shot with the current stats we have needs longevity over everything. Life Orb is a nice mix, but its longevity is really hard to use its concept to its full potential as it wants to.
And Since offensive Abilities arent allowed apparently, we would really want an ability that helps it keep its longevity and being able to dish out good amount of damave and parting shot do a ton of things, not just switching out and lowering offenses to your target.

However, Parting Shot + the stats it currently has and a really good offensive typing is pretty awesome in and of itself because it can use its speed and offenses to dish out good damage, rkill, clean, and switch out. A hit and runner too. However, if it has no recovery, it wont find almost no opportunities to switch in. So what we have is a really flexible Pokemon thats good offensively as a decent balancebreaker, rkiller, cleaner and hit and runner with parting shot doing lowering stats, cushioning a bit and lowering offensive pressure, and eases up so they can bring in a pokemon a bit safer and may even be a game changer with your own wincons, by gaining momentum or using the lowered stats to set up or create a wincon situation for you. That alone, is flexibility.

What we really want is an ability that is just as flexible as cap22 itself and the ways Parting Shot can be used. Thats why i chose Trace. It mixes the really good utility trace itself already has with copying good abilities to its benefit and (maybe just maybe) find opportunities to switch in despite if cap22 does or doesnt have recovery. So what we can do is make this thing extremely flexible with both parting shot and still aids its flexibility in both offensive and utility. (Since its not really meant to switch into anything with lack of recovery (we can say the same thing for keldeo but thats a diff story)) The point is, cap22 is already really good and flexible and what we want is something to reward its flexibility and freedom of choice.

Another thing too. Were focusing too much on the negative sides that we prolly can never beat anyway, and just stick to the positive sides of cap22, which is a nice offensive pokemon who has the ability of being really flexible with both offensws and utility with Parting Shot, which that alone is a very flexible way you can use it for.
So we have a good rkiller cleaner pivot pshotter and a good "annoyer" all wrapped up into 1. What we can do is strengthen cap22 (not offensively but reward its flexibility while trying to circumvent its real weakness: Lack of Longevity)

Apart from Trace, the only other ability i can really see it have success with is Poison Heal for similar reasons, but solving our longevity issue. If someone says "We have to worry about it being knocked off." The thing is, the only Knock Offers i know in both OU and CAP is Weavile TornT Colossoil Azumarill and maybe Clef [theyre prolly more but ill end it here for now] (which all of these can do a ton of damage force it out or straight out ko/wall them) So that argument is really good on paper but in practice is really bad. And after poison heal, it can have longevity and the good things and role cap22 can do already on its on with stats typing ability and Pshot, and a bit more, making it an effective stallbreaker/balancebreaker as well

Hi Dgvhh. First things first, you might want to read up on the CAP process a tad more closely. The whole point of the secondary ability is that it should not overshadow the primary ability (see footnote for a historical point on this); any ability that would even come close to becoming the preferred ability for the CAP is immediately off the table. This is why several of the abilities from the primary ability discussion were ruled out immediately in the Ability Leader's post at the beginning of the thread. Trace carries a tremendous risk of overshadowing Natural Cure; Natural Cure is a solid ability, but Trace gives the opportunity to copy excellent abilities from other Pokemon in the process (and, should that happen, CAP may be discouraged from switching out once its obtained such an ability, diverting focus from the concept). There is a non-negligible chance that, when rubber meets the road and CAP enters the metagame, players will find themselves preferring Trace over Natural Cure. And, because of this, we can't choose it.

It doesn't matter if CAP needs Trace (or some offensive ability or some longevity ability) to be viable; if that had been true, it should have been the primary ability. However, it was not chosen as the primary ability, while Natural Cure was. That means that the CAP process is now geared around putting the right tools around Natural Cure to make it work. Perhaps it was a mistake to choose Natural Cure; that's beside the point. The CAP process is about the journey, not the destination. It's possible that, when we look back on this project, we'll discover that the apparent switch-orientated synergy between Natural Cure and Parting Shot was a result of overly naive thinking, and that Parting Shot needed help in another area to emphasise its use. Thing is, that's precisely where that conversation belongs: at the end of the project. The secondary ability is not supposed to make the Pokemon better, it's supposed to allow us to add a nuance to CAP that allows us to explore a niche aspect of the concept that doesn't interfere with the primary ability. If your reasoning for your choice of secondary ability is that Natural Cure isn't good enough and there's some other ability we need in order to make CAP work, you're taking the wrong approach to the CAP process. The CAP process does not allow retcons; Natural Cure is our primary ability, and should define most of its sets. Trace risks impeding this; Poison Heal would almost certainly become the first choice ability, especially given that one of the bulkier sets won the Stats stage.

Personally, I'm quite a fan of Sticky Hold, because it's almost guaranteed not to be the first choice ability on any of CAP's sets, but has a niche application. Parting Shot is most effective when CAP poses an actual offensive threat; ideally, CAP ought to switch in, threaten the things it naturally defeats out, and then Parting Shot out of its counter so that a teammate can take advantage of the opportunity. However, if it loses the ability to force switches, it'll tend to have to Parting Shot out of the things it's supposed to threaten, with no guarantee that it'll have a teammate to take advantage of it. Now, because CAP is also terrified of status, and Paralysis will ruin our day even more quickly than losing Life Orb will, Natural Cure will still be first choice most of the time. But, particularly on a team lacking good Knock Off switch-ins, there may be a good reason to run Sticky Hold so that CAP retains its ability to force switches while using its typing and solid bulk to serve as a Dark type switch-in. Aroma Veil and Limber are both also decent options; Aroma Veil is incredibly niche, and will only find use in the hands of players who are utterly paranoid about Taunt, while Limber is generally outclassed by Natural Cure, except in the specific situation of wanting to switch into Paralysis and be able to Parting Shot out rather than hard switching. Limber is by far the safest ability, since it addresses the same sort of problem as Natural Cure in a way that is generally less effective. I'd personally prefer an ability that explores something that our CAP is already supposed to be doing, however, which is why I like Sticky Hold. Switching into Knock Off is ideal for a pivot, and several of the things we're supposed to pivot into use it. Losing the ability to pivot into status, potentially losing the ability to 2HKO Chansey with Close Combat because of a Burn picked up early in a battle, and accumulating additional residual damage from Burns and Poisons (on top of the damage we'll already be taking from Life Orb) means that it'll still be clearly inferior to Natural Cure, but Sticky Hold is very definitely helpful for the direction we've taken the concept thus far. I'm unsure how I feel about Mold Breaker; as long as we don't do anything silly at movepool stage, I don't think it will harm the concept, I'm just unsure whether it will end up distracting from Natural Cure. Gooey and Intimidate are both definitely too good and risk outshining Natural Cure. I'm not fond of NCA in any situation except one in which the primary ability is crucial to the current implementation of the concept; while Natural Cure is helpful for the concept, it's not at all critical. Because of that, I'd like to see us explore a minor niche, we just have to make sure that the niche is indeed minor.

Footnight

It is worth noting that this hasn't always been the case, at least not in practice. It's fairly obvious looking at Auromoth, for example, that previous CAPs have sometimes received several amazing abilities. Cawmodore ended up with a second competitive ability that overshadowed its primary ability, despite its primary ability being the competitively very solid Intimidate. However, PRC cycles determined that isn't how we want the project to operate, and thus the current ethos of the primary ability being, well, primary, was formally implemented. This was done around the same time that it was formally decided to use the sequence of primary ability, stats, secondary ability, where the fact that stats are chosen in light of the primary ability while the secondary ability is chosen to fit with the primary ability and the stats highlights the different view of the two ability stages. Whether you like the process or not, that's the way the process is currently implemented, and it would take a subsequent PRC cycle to change that.

Edit @ below:

Unburden could be a decent one. Knock off triggers a speed boost, or allows a Sitrus Berry to heal. Priority Users stil counter us. That could encourage the phase, without overly boosting offensive stats, encouraging us to stay in overlong.

Making it so that Knock offers don't want to risk using that move in case they're going to encourage a speed boost.

Any ability that grants a boost that we lose after switching out is counter concept, because using Parting Shot immediately gives up the boost. The boost from Unburden is lost the moment you switch out, and thus works against the concept. Also, we don't want to encourage berries, since a) our damage calculations were based on Life Orb and b) that brings pinch perries into the picture, which go even further towards discouraging switching out. Also, speed boosts mess with our threatlist, making Unburden even more problematic.

 

[Hesh Kadesh]

Unburden could be a decent one. Knock off triggers a speed boost, or allows a Sitrus Berry to heal. Priority Users stil counter us. That could encourage the phase, without overly boosting offensive stats, encouraging us to stay in overlong.

Making it so that Knock offers don't want to risk using that move in case they're going to encourage a speed boost.

 

[Deck Knight]

**Semi-Mod Post**

To bring things back into focus here since we're getting off into the weeds listing new abilities to discuss, the key thing for a secondary ability is how it complements CAP's concept and contrasts with the primary ability.

Natural Cure helps CAP address passive effects like status that it switches into or gets used on it by passive Pokemon that otherwise tank its attacks pretty well. Our stat spread is fairly strong but not overwhelmingly so, and therefore those passive Pokemon usually get a chance to throw Toxic or a hazard up or try to stall us out with recovery moves like Roost and Slack Off.

Our secondary ability should keep that in mind and offer an alternative path or address an alternative issue to fill in some of those holes. Although Iron Fist has few general applications for example, its boost to Drain Punch can assist in lowering the number of EVs needed for a 2HKO on a mix set, and the healing ability of that move also mitigates residual damage. Many people have argued for Aroma Veil and how it addresses Taunt and disabling moves. I've already argued how Mold Breaker differentiates so no need to go over that again, not the point of this post.

I think that when it comes to Unburden, it's really just an inferior Rattled. Unburden only activates once, ever, upon Knock Off. Rattled activates every time you switch into it or into U-turn or Shadow Ball/Shadow Sneak. Justified would be a Knock-Off specific mitigation of the Life Orb drop, and +1 Attack Play Rough does make it harder for many opponents to stay in. Sticky Hold prevents our item from being lost in the first place. What all these abilities have in common to contrast Natural Cure is addressing the issue of item removal, and how with an item removed CAP is more vulnerable to being walled by passive Pokemon we want to threaten.

Suffice to say if you think Natural Cure's effect is good enough, argue for No Competitive Ability.

In any case, base your posts around reasoning like that, not on throwing abilities at the wall and seeing which ones stick in the discussion.

 

[DarkSlay]

Hi, just some quick thoughts:

One ability that has been brought up, but has not garnered much discussion, is Infiltrator. It has some extremely niche benefits (notably the ability to hit opposing Pokemon with Parting Shot under a Substitute), but these benefits are unique and at least provide some neat value to CAP22's role as a threat softener and scout. This would also be a handy tool against Baton Pass users like Scolipede and Tomohawk, who could both potentially Sub up and Baton Pass for free against standard CAP22. This ability needs more consideration and discussion.

Mold Breaker is in a similar boat as Infiltrator, having niche benefits, but I'm not a fan of how broad the ability is (eliminating Sturdy, eliminating immunity abilities, etc), and I don't like the warning the game gives at the beginning (would rather Mold Breaker be selected as a necessity rather than a secondary ability in this way). I wouldn't mind it being chosen, but it's behind Infiltrator in my mind.

Besides that, Sticky Hold is okay if we want to pick an ability that doesn't directly tie into the concept, but is basically a "given role" that CAP22 will have as a Knock Off absorber. It won't reduce the BP of the move, IIRC, but at least it would get to keep its item. I don't have a problem with this ability being selected.

Finally...I firmly believe that Natural Cure should be the most used ability for this Pokemon, considering that most other beneficial abilities in Natural Cure's category were banned from the outset of this thread. Therefore, No Competitive Ability is a consideration of mine. However, I'd like to see an ability with fringe benefits be selected, simply because of the ability to give CAP22 some limited versatility as a pivot.

EDIT: I was not aware that Parting Shot was a sound-based move, although should have known, since I knew Parting Shot meant the Pokemon shouting profanities at its opponent. Disregard my thing on Parting Shot and the little bit included with Mold Breaker.

 

[YellowAdminSilver]

Hi, just some quick thoughts:

One ability that has been brought up, but has not garnered much discussion, is Infiltrator. It has some extremely niche benefits (notably the ability to hit opposing Pokemon with Parting Shot under a Substitute), but these benefits are unique and at least provide some neat value to CAP22's role as a threat softener and scout. This would also be a handy tool against Baton Pass users like Scolipede and Tomohawk, who could both potentially Sub up and Baton Pass for free against standard CAP22. This ability needs more consideration and discussion.

The thing is, Parting Shot is a sound-based move and therefore bypasses Substitutes. Infiltrator isn't needed to guarantee that you can PS on mons that are behind a Sub.

 

[VannAccessible]

I'll throw in support behind Mold Breaker, mainly because Colosoil and Mega Sableye should not be able to jump into CAP's PS and take advantage of its stats being reduced.

While risky, I think these counter plays should be discouraged somehow.

 

[Alfalfa]

Since this thread is a little slow right now I would like to offer my opinions on some of the proposed abilities. Before I state anything, I still strongly support No Competitive Ability. However, I will critique a couple of the proposed abilities:

*Sticky Hold: While this does guarantee that we will always be hit by Knock Off for full power, it does ensure that CAP 22 will not lose its Life Orb. However, our CAP cannot ideally switch into most Knock Off users to begin with, as they have secondary STABs that hit our CAP quite hard. Our CAP's bulk is not as bad as say, Syclant, but most Knock Off users have ways around CAP 22 to begin with, especially if it has Sticky Hold. Within the top 45 in terms of usage that commonly carry Knock Off (1760 stats), literally every Pokemon that is commonly seen carrying Knock Off has ways to make CAP 22 regret switching in, especially against Mega Sableye if our CAP has Sticky Hold. Most of these mons hit our CAP hard or super effectively, so trying to make our CAP a Knock Off absorber is not a very realistic ideal when most Knock Off users can cripple our CAP to begin with without needing to change their most common movesets.
*Mold Breaker: Our CAP outspeeds and 2HKOs Mega Diancie, OHKOs standard Mega Sableye, and can do over 80% to Assault Vest Colossoil, all of which are the most common Magic Bounce users (in Colossoil's case, Rebound user) in the CAP metagame. Switching these mons into CAP is generally considerably risky and can easily backfire, so I fail to see why our CAP would need Mold Breaker.
*Infiltrator: It has a niche bonus of being able to hit Tomohawk behind a Substitute, and while Substitute Tomohawk can be an adaptation to CAP 22 that can be anticipated, aside from this, I fail to see how our CAP is going to want this over Natural Cure, especially when the proposed niche is based of an assumption that a Pokemon will adapt this way to CAP 22.
*Aroma Veil: Blocking Taunt and Encore is a legitimate benefit, but most users of Taunt / Encore (Tomohawk, Fidgit, Heatran, Talonflame, etc.) have ways to target this CAP without Taunt to begin with, and aside from Talonflame, Tomohawk (who does not want to stay in on our CAP anyways), and Tornadus-T, our CAP outspeeds most of these Taunt / Encore users and can KO them or pivot out of them with Parting Shot to begin with.
*Gooey: If I have not already stated this in an earlier post, Gooey is a generically good ability that makes our CAP far better than it needs to be. We have already been very generous with CAP 22 in terms of bulk and typing, and adding Gooey this could turn a simple Parting Shot pivot into a strongly overpowered Pokemon. I will recognize though that the Bisharp point is not significant right now because Bisharp is not that common, but Gooey is mostly unnecessary to what our CAP needs to do and has the ability to make this CAP noticeably overpowering.

 

[david0895]

Alfalfa what about Limber?
Also, what happened to snake_rattler? He had to return yesterday...

 

[Alfalfa]

Alfalfa what about Limber?
Also, what happened to snake_rattler? He had to return yesterday...

I am not going to comment about every proposed ability on this thread but Natural Cure offers more protection from status than Limber does by enabling CAP 22 to heal itself of burns and poison, both of which can have a crippling effect on CAP 22. Limber guarantees our CAP will be free from Paralysis, but Natural Cure is consistent enough that it can be relied on to offer protection against status effects. There really is no reason our CAP should have Limber when it has access to Natural Cure, so even giving our CAP Limber as a secondary ability is pointless.

 

[Tsaeb XIII]

Since this thread is a little slow right now I would like to offer my opinions on some of the proposed abilities. Before I state anything, I still strongly support No Competitive Ability. However, I will critique a couple of the proposed abilities:

*Sticky Hold: While this does guarantee that we will always be hit by Knock Off for full power, it does ensure that CAP 22 will not lose its Life Orb. However, our CAP cannot ideally switch into most Knock Off users to begin with, as they have secondary STABs that hit our CAP quite hard. Our CAP's bulk is not as bad as say, Syclant, but most Knock Off users have ways around CAP 22 to begin with, especially if it has Sticky Hold. Within the top 45 in terms of usage that commonly carry Knock Off (1760 stats), literally every Pokemon that is commonly seen carrying Knock Off has ways to make CAP 22 regret switching in, especially against Mega Sableye if our CAP has Sticky Hold. Most of these mons hit our CAP hard or super effectively, so trying to make our CAP a Knock Off absorber is not a very realistic ideal when most Knock Off users can cripple our CAP to begin with without needing to change their most common movesets.
*Mold Breaker: Our CAP outspeeds and 2HKOs Mega Diancie, OHKOs standard Mega Sableye, and can do over 80% to Assault Vest Colossoil, all of which are the most common Magic Bounce users (in Colossoil's case, Rebound user) in the CAP metagame. Switching these mons into CAP is generally considerably risky and can easily backfire, so I fail to see why our CAP would need Mold Breaker.
*Infiltrator: It has a niche bonus of being able to hit Tomohawk behind a Substitute, and while Substitute Tomohawk can be an adaptation to CAP 22 that can be anticipated, aside from this, I fail to see how our CAP is going to want this over Natural Cure, especially when the proposed niche is based of an assumption that a Pokemon will adapt this way to CAP 22.
*Aroma Veil: Blocking Taunt and Encore is a legitimate benefit, but most users of Taunt / Encore (Tomohawk, Fidgit, Heatran, Talonflame, etc.) have ways to target this CAP without Taunt to begin with, and aside from Talonflame, Tomohawk (who does not want to stay in on our CAP anyways), and Tornadus-T, our CAP outspeeds most of these Taunt / Encore users and can KO them or pivot out of them with Parting Shot to begin with.
*Gooey: If I have not already stated this in an earlier post, Gooey is a generically good ability that makes our CAP far better than it needs to be. We have already been very generous with CAP 22 in terms of bulk and typing, and adding Gooey this could turn a simple Parting Shot pivot into a strongly overpowered Pokemon. I will recognize though that the Bisharp point is not significant right now because Bisharp is not that common, but Gooey is mostly unnecessary to what our CAP needs to do and has the ability to make this CAP noticeably overpowering.

Alfalfa, I'm wondering why you're heavily supportive of NCA, but questioning the first four of these abilities on the basis that CAP probably won't choose to use them over Natural Cure. Either you're right, in which case they're basically NCAs anyway, or you're wrong, and there is enough value in them for the occasional niche set. To me, your descriptions of the abilities sound exactly like what a typical secondary ability should sound like unless we're exploring a concept where abilities are required to give the Pokemon distinctly different, viable roles - the abilities each have the ability to do something helpful for our CAP, but not without associated risks and the massive opportunity cost incurred by not taking Natural Cure. Nobody is arguing that these abilities are amazing for our CAP; if they were, that would suggest these abilities shouldn't be coming up in the secondary ability discussion. What's being asserted is that the abilities provide enough benefit to be considered on very specific niche sets, which your own descriptions suggest could be the case (especially for Infiltrator on an extremely Tomohawk weak team, or Mold Breaker on a team weak to a threat that can easily set up on a -1 Atk/-1 Sp Atk CAP that tends to partner one of Magic Bounce/Rebound Pokemon). All that being said, I'm in total agreement that Gooey has all sorts of problems, and really shouldn't be on the table.

I am not going to comment about every proposed ability on this thread but Natural Cure offers more protection from status than Limber does by enabling CAP 22 to heal itself of burns and poison, both of which can have a crippling effect on CAP 22. Limber guarantees our CAP will be free from Paralysis, but Natural Cure is consistent enough that it can be relied on to offer protection against status effects. There really is no reason our CAP should have Limber when it has access to Natural Cure, so even giving our CAP Limber as a secondary ability is pointless.

Again, within the definition of secondary ability, there is a reason to consider Limber - it's almost always worse than Natural Cure, but there are specific situations involving Paralysis when it is superior (including the ability to safely switch into Paralysing moves and Parting Shot out, which Natural Cure can't do without risking the chance of full Paralysis. It feels to me as though you're constructing a dichotomy between abilities that are good enough to be primary abilities and abilities that are so useless that they can be classified as NCAs, and ignoring the pool of abilities in between despite the fact that, by definition, that pool in between is almost always where we want the secondary ability to come from. If there is a reason why you might want the ability that is helpful for the concept or assists us in a role we already expect CAP to be filling, but it never consistently justifies itself ahead of the primary ability, that's probably a good sign that it's worth consideration.

 

[Alfalfa]

Alfalfa, I'm wondering why you're heavily supportive of NCA, but questioning the first four of these abilities on the basis that CAP probably won't choose to use them over Natural Cure. Either you're right, in which case they're basically NCAs anyway, or you're wrong, and there is enough value in them for the occasional niche set. To me, your descriptions of the abilities sound exactly like what a typical secondary ability should sound like unless we're exploring a concept where abilities are required to give the Pokemon distinctly different, viable roles - the abilities each have the ability to do something helpful for our CAP, but not without associated risks and the massive opportunity cost incurred by not taking Natural Cure. Nobody is arguing that these abilities are amazing for our CAP; if they were, that would suggest these abilities shouldn't be coming up in the secondary ability discussion. What's being asserted is that the abilities provide enough benefit to be considered on very specific niche sets, which your own descriptions suggest could be the case (especially for Infiltrator on an extremely Tomohawk weak team, or Mold Breaker on a team weak to a threat that can easily set up on a -1 Atk/-1 Sp Atk CAP that tends to partner one of Magic Bounce/Rebound Pokemon). All that being said, I'm in total agreement that Gooey has all sorts of problems, and really shouldn't be on the table.

Again, within the definition of secondary ability, there is a reason to consider Limber - it's almost always worse than Natural Cure, but there are specific situations involving Paralysis when it is superior (including the ability to safely switch into Paralysing moves and Parting Shot out, which Natural Cure can't do without risking the chance of full Paralysis. It feels to me as though you're constructing a dichotomy between abilities that are good enough to be primary abilities and abilities that are so useless that they can be classified as NCAs, and ignoring the pool of abilities in between despite the fact that, by definition, that pool in between is almost always where we want the secondary ability to come from. If there is a reason why you might want the ability that is helpful for the concept or assists us in a role we already expect CAP to be filling, but it never consistently justifies itself ahead of the primary ability, that's probably a good sign that it's worth consideration.

Literally the only ability of these our CAP will probably use is Infiltrator, and that is still based on an assumption that Tomohawk will adapt to CAP 22 by running Substitute, which is not something we should be betting on. If we are going to give CAP 22 a secondary ability, I want it so it would actually be practical for CAP 22 to consider it. I do not see the point in Mold Breaker when the whole purpose of Mold Breaker is to keep the opponent from making highly risky moves, I do not see the point of Aroma Veil when the mons that commonly carry it either beat or lose against CAP 22 one-on-one regardless of their movepool, and I do not see the point of Sticky Hold when the whole point of Knock Off is being strongly exaggerated to the point that people fail to realize that CAP 22 is not switching in on the majority of the CAP metagame's common Knock Off users. Infiltrator is the only ability here that does not rely on completely moot reasoning, but it is still relying on an assumption for its justification, which is very shaky reasoning at best. The assumption that Tomohawk will adapt to CAP 22 by running Substitute is not as weak of an assumption as it could be, but we are still betting it to be true, which is what I was trying to point out. I did not mention Limber, because I am not that familiar with the list of common mons in CAP that commonly carry Paralysis, so I will leave my response to your Limber point to this: if there are common Paralysis users in CAP that our CAP can switch in on by typing alone, then it could be considered. If not, then there is no point to carrying Limber.

EDIT: Apparently Parting Shot is sound based, so Infiltrator is not necessary.

 

[snake]

Hi guys I'm back. Feedback! Note that these abilities are listed in the order that they appeared in the thread.

Aroma Veil: My opinions on Aroma Veil since the Primary Ability thread have not changed. This ability stops potential Prankster Taunt Pokemon and getting hit by Taunt on the switch, which is pro-concept.

Limber: While it had merit in the Primary Ability thread, I see no reason why anyone would want to run Limber when Natural Cure is at CAP22's disposal.

Mold Breaker: Mold Breaker doesn't really help CAP22 aside from that it solidifies its ability to hit Parting Shot effectively 100%. It already hits 99% of Pokemon anyways, and it takes some serious guts to switch Mega Diancie, Mega Sableye, or Colossoil into CAP22 when it has strong STAB moves at its disposal.

Competitive: We've discussed this ability extensively in the Primary Ability Discussion, and I think it's clear that this ability is anti-concept.

Immunity Abilities: Immunity abilities in general tend to overshadow the Primary Ability, so I don't think they have a place in this discussion, especially those that give CAP22 stat boosts.

Gooey: This screws with our threatlist for absolutely no reason. Even though it doesn't affect Special attackers (aside from Grass Knot and the like), it's still against our threatlist.

Sticky Hold: I like this ability. CAP22 generally has good match ups against most Knock Off users (barring Tornadus-T and some others), and it works with our threats list well. It is also pro-concept in that not losing its Life Orb forces switchs (read: AV Colossoil).

Intimidate: Stacking attack drops isn't what we need for Parting Shot to be a success. Not only does it skew our analysis of Parting Shot, it overshadows Parting Shot.

Justified: It gives CAP22 boosts, which means it will want to stay in and not use Parting Shot. In short, it's anti-concept.

Frisk: Frisk is a good ability for a pivot (see: Kitsunoh). It works well with Parting Shot as a pivoting move, so I don't have any problems with it.

Trace: Trace would outclass Natural Cure, as CAP22 will have ample opportunities to copy many good abilities.

Infiltrator: Parting Shot already pierces through Substitutes, and honestly the Substitute Tomohawk argument is a bit weak. It seems more niche than Mold Breaker would be.

 

[emma]

I agree with what snake_rattler said about the abilities listed so far. Personally, my personal favorites are Frisk & Aroma Veil. Frisk seems a bit more appealing to me because I CAP 22's concept revolves around switching and scouting for items on the switch in sounds like a great niche. Aroma Veil only really applies to Priority Taunt user, however, there are quite a few of them. Tomohawk (S), Thundurus (A-), and Klefki (B+) are some examples. Although Frisk affects all pokemon, Priority Taunt is distributed to common pokemon, however, I believe Frisk has more merit just because it will come into affect every game.

 

[TordenOfItami]

Perhaps the use of Contrary would balance use of Parting Shot against Magic Bounce, as after everything resolves, the stat boost is negated once the CAP switches.

 

[Hoping4megasceptile]

Perhaps the use of Contrary would balance use of Parting Shot against Magic Bounce, as after everything resolves, the stat boost is negated once the CAP switches.

But after getting a special attack boost thanks to contrary, CAP would prefer to stay in and sweep to take advantage of the boosts instead using parting shot to lose them, it goes directly against the concept.

 

[david0895]

Limber: While it had merit in the Primary Ability thread, I see no reason why anyone would want to run Limber when Natural Cure is at CAP22's disposal.

As I said, Limber will guarantee the use of Parting Shot against Prankster Thunder Wave Thundurus and Klefki.
Also, about the first, will remain a problem with Taunt. However, with Klefki, it's better because avoiding paralysis it's helpful for doing 2HKO:
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 185-218 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
We are already fighting with luck when using Focus Miss, I don't want add even the paralysis chance.

Perhaps the use of Contrary would balance use of Parting Shot against Magic Bounce, as after everything resolves, the stat boost is negated once the CAP switches.

Getting stat boost will encourage CAP22 to remain on the field and become a tank (Close Combat) or a physical sweeper (Superpower) and that's anti-concept.

 

[Arcade]

I've been thinking more and more on Aroma Veil recently and I've realized, When is it gonna be used? What gives it its niche? It can block Taunts and Confusion, but in all honesty, the idea of this Concept (from what I gather) is to be an offensive Pivot, meaning that it is almost never going to be in there for long periods of time, normally PS-ing on the switch. The Pokemon who "wall" PS (Serperior and Bisharp) very rarely run Taunt and if anything, it benefits them. There's no remote reason to run Aroma Veil over Natural Cure, not even a niche one.

As a person who's used Parting Shot Smeargle to prepare against a Sableye, I think Mold Breaker is a great fit for the Second Ability. It doesn't stop the concept reaching its goals and certainly doesn't get in the way of Natural Cure, is relatively niche but still not niche enough to not be used. It helps it get its way around Mega Diancie which is a big problem for it and stops the opponent from getting a free switch into a check as they now have to switch into a potentially more risky counter and then lose momentum from Parting Shot.

That's all, I think I've just repeated what others say so, uh, sorry.