CAP 23 CAP 23 - Part 1 - Concept Poll 2

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HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
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Hello everyone, very soon we will know our concept for CAP23!snake_rattler has selected eight concepts for us to review and vote and three have moved on from Poll 1. Please read each concept carefully below before casting your vote.
Here's how to vote:
  • All CAP community members are allowed to vote. This means that if you have a registered Smogon account, you can vote.
  • Please post the candidate names ranked in order of preference. Like so:
First Preferred Candidate
Second Preferred Candidate
Third Preferred Candidate


If the voter wishes, he/she may post comments on his vote below the actual vote. As with IRV or normal bold voting, only the votes themselves should be bold and none of the supplementary text should be bold.
  • It is highly encouraged that the voter ranks as many candidates as possible.
  • Please post only your votes in this thread. Do not respond to other posts, or your posts will be moderated and you warned. If you feel compelled to say something in your own vote, you may still do so, but don't try to incite a discussion. Keep discussion to #cap.
  • If you do not complete a full ranked ballot, as prescribed here, your ballot will be deleted. So, please take the time to evaluate all the candidates and compose a proper ranked ballot.
  • This poll will be run with RP voting in which each candidate will be paired against each other candidate and paired counting of the votes, as decided in this PRC topic.

The concepts slated into this poll are:

Maximum Compression
reachzero said:
  • Name - Maximum Compression
  • Description - A Pokemon that compresses a number of vital team roles efficiently within a single moveset, opening team slots for more powerful, less specialized Pokemon.
  • Justification
    • While it sounds at first glance like an archetype, this is actually a Target concept. The goal is to relax the mad scramble to fill every important team time using only six slots, by compressing as many as possible into one specialized slot.
  • Questions To Be Answered
  • What are the major roles that must be compressed for a CAP team to be effective?
  • Which roles are the hardest to fit on a team at present?
  • How many roles can one team slot with one typing realistically compress?
  • Which Pokemon increase in value when essential team needs are already covered?
  • What are the weaknesses for role compression? For offensive mons, does role compression inherently mean giving up precious coverage?
  • How close is the correlation between a Pokemon's usefulness and its power? How do we maximize role compression while maintaining competitive balance?
  • How much does a role relate to a Pokemon's typing, abilities, stats, or moves? What approximate combination does a typical X role need?-Are there certain roles that just naturally seem to jive together?
    -What moves or other characteristics seem to be common in role compression? Are they common because of some sort of latent synergy, because of simple distribution, or anything else?
  • Can typically "opposite" roles still be compressed together?
  • Do roles exist as independent categories or is there some sort of spectrum or chart or klein-group that we can use to organize roles? How do differing roles relate and interact with each other?

  • Explanation - Before Generation 6, the most significant aspect of building a team was type synergy, since there were so few threats that needed to be specifically covered. Generation 6 altered this process dramatically by introducing Megas and especially Sticky Web (Necturna)--Megas because their power was too great to realistically build without one and Sticky Web because they essentially made hazard control, which until this point was a luxury, into a hard necessity for a seriously competitive team. Complicating this, CAP has several offensive threats that are really difficult to account for, with Volkraken the most obvious. Handling this many roles, even using basic role compression, often takes as many as four slots, giving you little room for originality. This Pokemon would aim to take on the tougher roles to fit on a team; this means it would probably not care about hazard setting or removal, for instance, since the CAP metagame already has those in spades. By specializing in the hard to fill roles, it would be easier to fit Pokemon like Syclant or Zygarde that do not counter any of the Pokemon with annoyingly specific counters.
Edit: Please note that HeaLnDeaL and I have decided to officially merge our concept submissions, making this a joint submission.

New Toy Syndrome
G-Luke said:
Name: New Toy Syndrome

Description: Pokémon that is defined by the utilization of the unseen Gen 7 abilities in CAP.

Justification: This concept aims to use one of the many new Gen 7 abilities that are unseen in CAP to its full potential. It identifies as Actualization, as it brings the idea of these abilities being used successfully by a Pokémon in the CAP metagame to fruition. It can also be seen as an Archetype concept, as the successful use of these abilities will no doubt bring new unseen roles to the metagame.

Questions to be Answered:
  • Why are these abilities currently unseen in the CAP? What can be done, along the areas of stats, typing and movepool, to prevent our CAP from falling into obscurity as the original owners of the abilities have?
  • What makes an ability define a Pokémon?
  • How can we design the CAP in such a way, as to make it choose to use the new ability given to it, as opposed to other secondary or hidden abilities?
  • What new roles in the metagame can be established from the creation of this CAP?
  • To furthur the point above, how beneficial will these new roles be to the CAP metagame?
Explaination: Generation 7 brought with it a plentiful amount of signature abilities; such as Queenly Majesty/Dazzling, Fluffy, Innards Out and Emergency Exit. Unfortunately, most of these abilities are not utilized in the SM CAP metagame, due to the users either having much better options (Toxapex) or have no place in the metagame (Dhelmise, Tsareena). This Pokémon would not only have one of these abilities, but will be designed to utilize this ability to its full potential in the CAP metagame, playing on both its strengths and weaknesses. Fluffy allows a Pokémon to be a great physical tank, at the cost of a Fire type weakness. Stamina turns mons into great defensive tanks over the course of a match and Dazzling grants the user Priority immunity. All of these abilities provide extremely useful effects, but are not used due to the owner's having supbar to terrible performance in SM for a variety of reasons. This CAP aims to change that. The prospects of this CAP are as limitless as the ability chosen for it.

First time submitting an idea for CAP. Please bear with me any errors made.
Wait! It's a Trap Move!
Okamu said:
Name: Wait! It's a Trap Move!

Description: A Pokémon that can make effective use of semi-trapping, fully trapping, or self-trapping move(s).

Justification: Trapping is a somewhat polarized mechanic in the current SM metagame. In terms of ability-based trappers we have Dugtrio, perhaps one of the most hated (or most loved, really depends on the situation) Pokémon thanks to its ability Arena Trap. There is also the occasionally seen Magnezone that uses Magnet Pull to lure in and decimate Steel type Pokemon. All trapping effects are ignored by the Shed Shell item or simply by being a Ghost type. However, this is not the kind of trapping I want to focus on. Focusing on abilities leaves few options, and the general mechanics are the same: Lure, Trap, Destroy. Nothing much new is to be found there.

So, instead, I would like this concept to focus on trapping moves. For those unfamiliar with the term, there are a few types of trapping moves which I will make an attempt to explain here. A semi- or partially trapping move prevents the opponent from switching out for a set number of turns while also usually doing a set percent of damage. Example moves would be Whirlpool, Fire Spin, Infestation, and Magma Storm (but don't use that last one, it's legendary exclusive!). There are also what I like to call fully trapping moves, moves that prevent the opponent from switching not for a set number of turns, but instead until the Pokémon who used the move leaves the battlefield. This category includes moves such as Block as well as the brand-new Gen 7 moves of Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle. Also are what I call self-trapping moves, which is just Ingrain to my knowledge. This move (and if any similar ones come about) lock the USER into battle. Lastly, just to make sure I cover all my bases, Fairy Lock is an interesting trapping move that prevents any Pokémon, friend or foe, from leaving the battlefield on the following turn only (Barring the usual exceptions).

This concept fits in the Actualization and Archetype categories. Trapping moves are exceedingly rare in their usage. The most effective in OU currently is Magma Storm Heatran, but this is by far not its only nor its best set. Expanding our gaze slightly we may find the strange Stall-Trap or Perish-Trap strategies in use in varying parts of the ladder. Even further? Ok then, in Ubers you can find an excellent example of self-trapping in Ingrain Xerneas, which helps prevent the opponent from forcing Xerneas out after it has set up its boosts. In addition, one could look at SD Trapper Decidueye that sets up with Swords Dance after trapping a helpless opponent via Spirit Shackle. Dhelmise can also use Anchor Shot, though I'm not terribly sure as to how that set works... Regardless, that makes about four solid examples of trapping moves across four different tiers, and none of the sets are by any means the only or most effective sets those Pokémon can run (Except maybe Dhelmise. Is there an RU player here who can help me out with that thing?). Overall, the relative rarity of these moves in competitive play when contrasted with the seemingly powerful effect of locking in the opponent begs a variety of questions about the nature and use of said trapping moves. To best explore these moves, designing a Pokémon to use and abuse them makes the most sense for understanding how to properly use them (whatever that would mean).

Questions To Be Answered:
(Base) Is there a 'best' way to utilize trapping moves? If so, what playstyle does it most align with?
(Base) Is there a 'best' type of trapping move overall, or are they each truly viable in their own ways?
(Base) What is the value in trapping the opposing Pokémon? Are certain traps better than others? Why?
(Base) What synergies work well with trapping moves? Why do they have such a great synergy, and how can that be expanded or dealt with in the process of teambuilding?
(Comparison) How do trapping moves compare against trapping abilities? Are there any inherent benefits and disadvantages and if so, what are they?
(Metagame) Are there any particular archetype matchups in which a trapping-move Pokémon would have an advantage? A disadvantage? Why is that?
(Metagame) What has contributed to the lack of presence of trapping moves in our metagame? Is it a plethora of other options, a lack of viable abusers, or something else?
(Metagame) How does the trapping mechanic interact with the value of switching out?

Explanation:

With the variety of different trapping moves available for use, a variety of archetypes can be built depending on the choice of move. To start, let's first analyze the semi-trapping moves. As mentioned before the basic applications for these fall in the categories of trapping and stalling out opponents through the use of Toxic or other status ailments. Alternatively, as with Heatran, it's used to trap vulnerable Pokémon in order to further weaken them to critical levels or straight up KO them. It was also mentioned during updates another strategy of using the moves of Pokémon who cannot do anything to your Pokémon and then setting up to sweep, as with Infestation on Aurumoth and Syclant, though this was generically deemed unviable. As for the fully-trapping moves, they are far more inclined to be used in the set up manner, as with the previously mentioned Decidueye. Again, stall sets works well with these moves as well, as they fully prevent escape instead of trapping just for a few turns. However, they do not do damage at the end of each turn, making the chip damage not as substantial. Ingrain honestly in the CAP metagame does not have any real foreseeable use. The anti-phasing properties applied to the Pokémon aren't useful unless you're trying to set up, and HazeHawk already makes easy work of any physical and non-SE moves if it switches in early enough. From there, it can usually chip you down. There could be some viability if you wanted to use super effective STAB moves such as Psychic type or Fairy type moves, but that seems a bit limiting, so I wouldn't necessarily encourage it unless someone thinks of a radically different use. Lastly we come to the more support-oriented role of Fairy Lock. The main way I have personally used this is on a Spikes, Dual Screens Lead Klefki. I let it set up until it was about to die, then used Fairy Lock to trap the opponent for an easy revenge kill. There are ways to use this move as more of a offensive role, by trapping at key points when you predict the opponent, but more importantly, this move is not very compatible with the stall playstyle, as the effect only lasts one turn. In addition to all of this, "trapping synergies with three great follow-up strategies: setting up, safely pivoting out, and using a powerful Z move lure" (snek), all of which can be considered when constructing the CAP. Overall, there are some similar threads of playstyles and archetypes, but each with its own niche.
The slate for easy copy/paste access is as follows:

Maximum Compression
New Toy Syndrome
Wait! It's a Trap Move!


Asking for votes for or against any submission is not allowed. Anyone found to have done so risks punishment at the moderation team's discretion. If you find that someone has broken this rule, please contact the CAP moderation team with your evidence and no one else. Mini-moderation of this rule is also considered a serious offense and can be punished.

This thread will be open for 24 hours.

Good luck to all candidates!
 

boxofkangaroos

this is the day of the expanding man
Maximum Compression
Wait! It's a Trap Move!
New Toy Syndrome

Maximum Compression provides for the most interesting process, since there are a variety of ways we can take it. Also, the Concept Assessment phase actually makes sense for Maximum Compression, while it doesn't as much for the other two (especially New Toy Syndrome).
 

S. Court

[Takes hits in Spanish]
is a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
Wait! It's a Trap Move!
New Toy Syndrome
Maximum Compression
 
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LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
Wait! It's a Trap Move!
Maximum Compression
New Toy Syndrome

The only interesting parts of New Toy's process would be the Concept Assessment and Typing, otherwise it would be a very stale and boring concept. Would rather avoid that ty.
 

snake_rattler

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
Maximum Compression
Wait! It's a Trap Move!

New Toy Syndrome


I think New Toy Syndrome is actually limiting as a concept. After we pick an ability, there's little room for variety just by the way the concept is set up. As much as it hurts as Topic Leader to say this, it's hard for me to back this concept now.
 
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reachzero

the pastor of disaster
is a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Maximum Compression
Wait! It's a Trap Move!
New Toy Syndrome


New Toy Syndrome is a problem child in terms of the process considered the emphasis it puts on the Ability stage, but the other two concepts should be a lot of fun.
 

Birkal

We have the technology.
is a Top Artistis a Top CAP Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Maximum Compression
Wait! It's a Trap Move!
New Toy Syndrome


No offense to G-Luke, but I think New Toy Sydrome would lead to an awful process. From the CAP Metagame standpoint, it would probably be a lot of fun to play with. But I don't think the 3 month slog would be worth it.
 
Wait! It's a Trap Move!
Maximum Compression
New Toy Syndrome


explore and discuss a mechanic, make a generically good pokemon, or make an interesting pokemon. hm.
 
Wait! It's a Trap Move!
New Toy Syndrome

Maximum Compression

Wait its a trap move seems the most open in terms of concept to me and I would like to see the kind of pokemon we can make from it.
 
Maximum Compression
Wait! It's a Trap Move!
New Toy Syndrome

The only thing I don't like about New Toy Syndrome is the fact that it is limited to Abilities. It would have been more interesting if the concept actually included all kinds of mostly unseen mechanics, like a combo of Stamina and Shore Up, or a mix of Toxic Thread and Merciless, or similar combinations. Alas, maybe next time.
 
Maximum Compression
Wait! It's a Trap Move!
New Toy Syndrome

I agree with the sentiment that New Toy Syndrome won't result in a very interesting process, mostly because it limits the scope of our discussion largely to choosing an interesting new ability and proceeding to make a good Pokemon with it.
 
Wait! It's a Trap Move!
New Toy Syndrome

Maximum Compression

idk but maximum compression just REALLY repels me. idk why... and New Toy isn't that great either. I really like trapping though. #shadowtag
 
Wait! It's a Trap Move!
Maximum Compression
New Toy Syndrome

New Toy is rather limiting, and that is something we should avoid. Maximum Compression isn't a bad concept on paper. However, my major worry is that we get a Tomohawk 2.0 in terms of power and that is something I do not want. Also, there are so many roles out there. There is bulky attacker, fast attacker, hazard stacker, hazard remover, and cleric. I fail to see how we can fit all of those things on a single Pokémon without making it a master of none or a master of all (like Tomohawk). Again, please don't make Maximum Compression into Tomohawk 2.0. It's a Trap Move seems like a fun concept with many directions to take it in and has the potential to differentiate itself from Dugtrio.
 

HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
is an Artistis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Maximum Compression
Wait! It's a Trap Move!

I don't like NTS, think it doesn't let us learn anything. But good luck to all the concepts!
 
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