1 It's too strong, especially with 133 atk
2 It's anti-concept: CAP23 is based on trapping moves, not abilities
Seriously, LucarioOfLegends close the thread pls
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CAP 23 CAP 23 - Part 6 - Secondary Ability Discussion
- Thread starter Quanyails
- Start date
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1 It's too strong, especially with 133 atk
2 It's anti-concept: CAP23 is based on trapping moves, not abilities
Seriously, LucarioOfLegends close the thread pls
Just going to make a quick defense of the benefits we get from Skill Link before I go to bed.
First off, I actually like that it adds to our 4MSS (Psychic Fangs is comparatively clean coverage). I also don't particularly care that it doesn't break Tomohawk in the way that Strong Jaw does, because I view Tomohawk as targetted through Toxic primarily. Moreover, it's stronger than Strong Jaw when it comes to not being stalled out by Toxapex.
Second, Skill Link is probably one of our strongest fake-outs. See Skill Link (Due to Comatose telegraphing), and you're expecting a set perhaps like Spirit Shackle/Outrage/Bone Rush/Toxic. You're probably *not* expecting a Z-Earthquake or a Z-Brave Bird, and that adds a lovely aspect to a dedicated trapper.
(The latter is a slight extrapolation on the general thought that a second ability allows us to fulfill our concept role much more effectively by using the fact that Comatose telegraphs and can thus be used to bait a trap)
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Oh, and Stakeout (and similar) is horrible for the concept having thought about it since the last ability thread, especially now that we have our statline. Meanwhile Marvel Scale is actually fairly hilarious on a Rest set, although obviously more overwhelming than something like Pressure/Infiltrator/Frisk.
First off, I actually like that it adds to our 4MSS (Psychic Fangs is comparatively clean coverage). I also don't particularly care that it doesn't break Tomohawk in the way that Strong Jaw does, because I view Tomohawk as targetted through Toxic primarily. Moreover, it's stronger than Strong Jaw when it comes to not being stalled out by Toxapex.
Second, Skill Link is probably one of our strongest fake-outs. See Skill Link (Due to Comatose telegraphing), and you're expecting a set perhaps like Spirit Shackle/Outrage/Bone Rush/Toxic. You're probably *not* expecting a Z-Earthquake or a Z-Brave Bird, and that adds a lovely aspect to a dedicated trapper.
(The latter is a slight extrapolation on the general thought that a second ability allows us to fulfill our concept role much more effectively by using the fact that Comatose telegraphs and can thus be used to bait a trap)
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Oh, and Stakeout (and similar) is horrible for the concept having thought about it since the last ability thread, especially now that we have our statline. Meanwhile Marvel Scale is actually fairly hilarious on a Rest set, although obviously more overwhelming than something like Pressure/Infiltrator/Frisk.
I find the idea of using a secondary ability to fake-out Z-Earthquake/Brave Bird absolutely ridiculous. Honestly I doubt that any secondary ability is going to be ever used, as Comatose is simply that good, so using an already inferior ability just to bluff a set that would've worked better with Comatose in the first place is incredibly gimmicky. We're already guaranteed to have some bad 4MSS, as we simply can't threaten all of our targets in the same set, so there's no need to try to increase it here.
I would like to apologize for the long wait here, but it is finally time to get up the slate! But first a brief overview of our thread.
Generally, we had a large portion of the thread heavily support the No Competitive Ability option, simply due to how strong of an ability Comatose actually is. There were a number of previously mentioned abilities making a return, such as Strong Jaw, Volt Absorb, and Early Bird made a valiant return to this thread, and gained a decent amount of support. Some new abilities also came to the spotlight as well, such as Mold Breaker and Skill Link. A very heated debate came about for the possible inclusion of Rest sets (since Rest works very well with trapping) and an ability that can at least allow the use of it, unlike Comatose. There were a few people who saw it generally as a useless gimmick, but there were some fairly good arguments to show it not being overpowered, but also showing it to have some usability. So, without further ado, here is our slate.
No Competitive Ability
Volt Absorb
Early Bird
Mold Breaker
Strong Jaw
No Competitive Ability was a shoe-in, for it gained an incredible amount support over the course of the thread. Volt Absorb, while originally cut from primary ability, is far easier to balance due to Comatose's activation message, and the ability to get a third immunity is very nice and helps us increase possible longevity through correct prediction. Early Bird's major justification is for the usage of a possible Rest set and specifically helps against its nasty after effects. Both Deck Knight and david0895 have done a great job at showing how this doesn't make CAP unkillable as well. Mold Breaker only has a few uses, but they could be used to bypass some of the more annoying effects that CAP23 will experience, such as Garchomp's Rough Skin and Shield Dust on Cyclohm, and can also open up numerous opportunities for coverage against Pokemon such as Rotom-Wash and Mollux. Finally, Strong Jaw is a great coverage option to help break down our targets more easily such as Toxapex, Tomohawk, Zapdos, and Landorus-T.
Waiting for approval from our glorious TL snake_rattler
Generally, we had a large portion of the thread heavily support the No Competitive Ability option, simply due to how strong of an ability Comatose actually is. There were a number of previously mentioned abilities making a return, such as Strong Jaw, Volt Absorb, and Early Bird made a valiant return to this thread, and gained a decent amount of support. Some new abilities also came to the spotlight as well, such as Mold Breaker and Skill Link. A very heated debate came about for the possible inclusion of Rest sets (since Rest works very well with trapping) and an ability that can at least allow the use of it, unlike Comatose. There were a few people who saw it generally as a useless gimmick, but there were some fairly good arguments to show it not being overpowered, but also showing it to have some usability. So, without further ado, here is our slate.
No Competitive Ability
Volt Absorb
Early Bird
Mold Breaker
Strong Jaw
No Competitive Ability was a shoe-in, for it gained an incredible amount support over the course of the thread. Volt Absorb, while originally cut from primary ability, is far easier to balance due to Comatose's activation message, and the ability to get a third immunity is very nice and helps us increase possible longevity through correct prediction. Early Bird's major justification is for the usage of a possible Rest set and specifically helps against its nasty after effects. Both Deck Knight and david0895 have done a great job at showing how this doesn't make CAP unkillable as well. Mold Breaker only has a few uses, but they could be used to bypass some of the more annoying effects that CAP23 will experience, such as Garchomp's Rough Skin and Shield Dust on Cyclohm, and can also open up numerous opportunities for coverage against Pokemon such as Rotom-Wash and Mollux. Finally, Strong Jaw is a great coverage option to help break down our targets more easily such as Toxapex, Tomohawk, Zapdos, and Landorus-T.
Waiting for approval from our glorious TL snake_rattler
Alright I’m glad that this stage can finally come to a close. However, I hate to have to do this, but Volt Absorb is raising red flags again. LucarioOfLegends’s question about Volt Absorb latest post, asking about the ability beyond the Volt Switch immunity, simply didn’t get enough justification that I was hoping for. The most was “a trapping Pokemon thrives off of opportunity,” which is correct, but CAP23 will have more than enough opportunity to place pressure on the opposing team. Simply put, a secondary ability enables Rest to be used, and because of its potency when trapping defensive Pokemon, curbing an offensive strategy in Volt Switch at the same time isn’t sitting well with me. Additionally, I don’t think Secondary Ability is the right place just to place on another immunity because immunities are more powerful than you think. You can’t reliably use an Electric-type attacks before the Comatose reveal (or Volt Absorb by lack of message) because you don’t know about the ability, which is an odd obstacle to place on opponents and wasn’t well discussed. Also, CAP23 already has increadibly potent typing, primary ability, and stats. I havent seen enough justification to toss another powerful trait alongside the other qualities of CAP23. Therefore, I will be using my -1 on Volt Absorb. I know this will bother some people, but we still have a great slate and a whole moves stage to go. See you all then!
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