CAP 24 CAP 24 - Part 12 - Flavour Ability Discussion

[Reviloja753]

Overcoat and Frisk seem like the best options as flavor. Jumbao needs a tie to Sand in abilities, even for flavor. Frisk has been beaten to death, but I agree with other points made. Cursed Body is a very interesting ability, given the shimenawa connection, but I’m uncertain if it’s too competitive. Honey Gather is also super interesting, with the idea of sap and such. The only issue I have with it is that typically only bugs get it, but other than that, it’s cool. Friend Guard, Healer, Symbiosis and other flavorful abilities are fine, but don’t feel super inspired.

The abilities that are hot trash are Natural Cure, Overgrow and Oblivious, Serene Grace and any rain abilities. They all are way too competitve. Overgrow and Natural Cure in particular are awful. The former is exclusive to starters and elemonkeys, which has stayed true for all of Pokémon. Natural Cure basically makes Pex a non issue, so no thanks.

 

[Ahhhhhh......Clefable.]

I wanna throw full support behind Overcoat and Frisk for the reasons already stated.

I also want to throw Justified into the mix. Jumbao won’t care about the random attack boost; how often does Keldeo take advantage of that attack boost? It also fits well with its justice-themed art, and with others who get it as a hidden ability: Lucario, Gallade, Arcanine, and Absol.

 

[Birkal]

In my mind, the greatest strength of a flavor ability is to accentuate the least prevalent flavor aspect of our design. In Jumbao's case, it has a lot of requirements to fulfill, and it does so reasonably well on most accounts. Grass-type is the most obvious aspect it presents, while Drought and sun support fall in line well with the baobab design. Its stats follow the design pretty well, in my opinion, and its movepool helps give credence to sand support.

I personally feel that Jumbao represents Fairy-type the least of all of its attributes. Yes, you can talk to me all about its shimenawa until you're blue in the face. And I would agree with you that it is great flavor, but I'd also argue that it isn't entirely accessible as a design choice. You have to know what a shimenawa is, which I certainly didn't until pipotchi made the design. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but none of my real life friends could tell you what the rope necessarily is. As a result, every single one of my friends has guessed that Jumbao is Grass/Fighting. Maybe it's the Makuhita in their brain influencing the choice, but try asking your friends what typing you think our newest creation is.

I don't think it would hurt us to accentuate Fairy-typing by any means necessary. Cute Charm is the obvious stand out here -- seven of the fourteen Pokemon with this ability are Fairy-type. Only one of them is Fighting-type, and that'd be Stufful, which I don't think really needed the ability anyways to be considered cute. You may think that Cute Charm is only given to cutemons like Wigglytuff and Cinccino, but it also has a user that I think is a great flavor equivalent to Jumbao: the Water-type Milotic. It's a cool design full of mystic and power, and it too gets Cute Charm (along with some other cool abilities).

If you can think of another ability that would better bring out the Fairy-tying of Jumbao, please let me know. All of the Fighting-type implied ones are completely off the table for me (Justified, Inner Focus, even Vital Spirit). Things like Honey Gather and Leaf Guard are fine, but Grass-typing is already super obvious on Jumbao. Own Tempo is alright, but it suffers the connotation of a slow Pokemon, which is something Jumbao struggles with as a design (social media has been keen to point this out). Adding an ability that implies slowness only harms us; look at all the crap Purugly gets for its speed. Overcoat is alright, especially since it helps bring out sand in the design, but then you might as well argue for Sand Veil if that's your ultimate goal. I personally think the ability to avoid chip damage is too competitive for a flavor ability, but I guess that is your call to make.

 

[Reviloja753]

I really like Cute Charm. Jumbao is arguably very cute (although not in the traditional sense), and Milotic is a perfect comparison. Both Milotic and Jumbao are Pokémon who are rather beautiful than cute on first glance, but Milotic should be Fairy gets Cute Charm as a HA, and I don’t see anything that brings the idea of Cute Charm down, something that no other ability really has going for it imo. I’m with Birkal on this one. #AdoraBao

 

[Dogfish44]

Right, so based on what I've seen, the following seem to have general support? Or at least a decent amount of discussion.

3+ Commented In Favour By My Count

Cute Charm
Friend Guard
Frisk
Harvest
Overcoat
Own Tempo
Vital Spirit

That means that the following 30 abilities still want some nattering about. Whilst I'm not a mod, it might be wise for us to focus the rest of the thread on these abilities, rather than throw more into our very large hat?

Hide

Battle Armour
Cursed Body
Forewarn
Gluttony
Healer
Honey Gather
Hustle
Hydration
Innards Out
Inner Focus
Justified
Klutz
Leaf Guard
Limber
Liquid Ooze
Moody
Natural Cure
Oblivious
Overgrow
Pressure
Rain Dish
Sand Rush
Sand Veil
Scrappy
Sticky Hold
Symbiosis
Synchronize
Tangled Feet
Unnerve
Water Compaction

I'll start off with some comments on abilities in the list, which I'll maybe edit in more over time?;

Battle Armour
Battle Armour to me implies something a lot more solid than a wooden body - heck, it usually comes as something that's layered on top of the Pokémon's body - look at Type:Null and Marowak literally wearing armour, and the scales that are layered on Armaldo and Drapion. Whilst baobabs are strong and sturdy things, I wouldn't associate them with being armoured in any way, and this ability feels like a miss at the moment.

Honey Gather
I'm a bit on the fence here, leaning against. Jumbao isn't like Teddiursa in that it's design screams "I am something that stereotypically eats Honey", and GameFreak seems to be very strict in making it only Bees which are able to create honey, rather than the sap that Jumbao makes. The movepool also doesn't really support Honey Gather, with a distinct lack of Sweet Scent, which seems to be a mandatory move on Honey'd mons.

Innards Out
I really can't see the justification on this one. Optics here are already pretty tricky by virtue of Shore Up being a unique move, and I can't see how Baobab would particularly have it's innards fly out everywhere. If anything, the strong nature of baobabs would make them even less likely to explode upon being KOed.

Klutz
I love this one! The visual idea I get from this is a Jumbao that's kind of clumsy, and always produces too much sap. So when it tries to actually hold an item, it gets caught in the sap and it can't actually use the item. It's a bit novel, and it's very "cute", but I like it.

 

[Reviloja753]

Let me just save some time and compile all of the off-mentioned abilities above that imo are too competitive.

Abilities

Battle Armor
Natural Cure
Oblivious
Pressure
Rain Dish
Sand Rush
Sand Veil
Water Compaction
Hydration

Sand Rush is disgusting as a flavor ability. Water Compaction runs the risk of skewing matchups with the likes of Cruci if we get a boost, Sand Veil is evasion which gets risky, Pressure screams stall, Oblivious and Natural Cure made more sense on Mr. Tailwind from three gens ago, I don’t want to encourage any rain usage and Pyroak has Battle Armor, showing how bad of an idea that is.

 

[Scizivire]

I'd like to talk about Liquid Ooze and about why I don't think it fits Jumbao as well as the name implies.

While yes, Jumbao stores sap inside its body for use in battle, I do not believe the consumption of the sap would be harmful in any way. The current 'users' of Liquid Ooze, namely the Tentacool line and Gulpin line, are both poisonous being based off of jellyfish and stomachs. If Jumbao's sap were to be poisonous as well, I'd expect Sludge Bomb or at least Venoshock to be in the movepool which are not there. Therefore I don't think the movepool supports Liquid Ooze very well.

 

[Reiga]

I'm a big fan of Synchronize, because alongside being a sort of magical sort of ability which I believe fits Bao's nature as a more mystical sort of Fairy it also can be seen as being a bit of a dance pun, since its dancing can be "synchronized" or the like.

Due to it being more of a "mystical" fairy than a "cute" one, I'm against Cute Charm, since while Baobab is cute, in my opinion its not something I'd make center stage for an ability, and while its good for saying its a Fairy, there are better ways that go with its more mythological reason for being fae.

I'm also partial to Healer, Overcoat, Klutz, Own Tempo and Oblivious. Those ones are pretty good.

 

[Clawed Nyasu]

So far, the ones I'm digging the most are Klutz and Frisk. Frisk for reasons already stated and Klutz because its leaves are kinda like hands so I can see it trying to use items but having a hard time because leaves. It's a cute and fun idea.

Cute Charm is alright, but not my favorite. And I am somewhat fond of Own Tempo (Jumbao absolutely looks like the kind of mon that dances to the beat of its own drum) but I didn't realize the slow mon connection until people pointed it out, so there's that.

 

[K. Roolest Shark]

I'm thinking of throwing Harvest or Torrent for the flavor abilities.

Harvest is because of a Boabab's ability produce edible fruit and leaves and Torrent is there because of Baobab trees capable of holding 120,000 litres of water in its trunk.

 

[Escavalier Royale]

I'm thinking of throwing Harvest or Torrent for the flavor abilities.

Harvest is because of a Boabab's ability produce edible fruit and leaves and Torrent is there because of Baobab trees capable of holding 120,000 litres of water in its trunk.

Harvest is too viable competitively (basically, adding it will just lead to Jumbao becoming Malaconda 2.0) and Torrent sounds really bad flavor-wise. Not only is it normally exclusive to Starters and the Elemonkeys, Jumbao doesn't even have the Water typing.

 

[Sereg]

Okay, I think there are some good choices here, but I also wondered, what about Dancer? It does seem the type and might give it a more Fairy feel.

 

[Y Parahax]

The only ones that I think would work right now are Healer and Cute Charm. Maybe Oblivious too. I like Healer more than the others though because almost all of the WIP Pokedex submissions mention healing travelers or other Pokemon in some way and Healer fits that flavor very well. A lot of the other abilities suggested, while they might work for flavor, seem too competitive for an ability slot which is never really meant to be used in battle. (Harvest, Dancer, Synchronize, Natural Cure, Sand Rush, Sand Veil, etc.)

 

[Deck Knight]

As far as flavor abilities, I think Birkal had a very good point about drawing out the most hidden elements of the CAP with it.

That said, I do support Overcoat because a heavy theme of this CAP is that it thrives, and indeed creates conditions that are harsh for it to live in. The aside sand immunity is different from Sand Veil because Sand Veil introduces hax, Overcoat doesn't. Flower Veil would be great however it works like a status immunity for Grass-types, so it would be too competitively powerful.

Healer and Cute Charm are the best Fairy-themed abilities that fit Jumbao's movepool and general nature, and aren't particularly effective abilities.

 

[JBL Jason]

I think Klutz really fits the theme of this Pokémon. It looks like it would have trouble grabbing items with its branch hands, and is a cute ability for this cute tree. It also somewhat fits the Fairy type, as it is the only “cute” ability I like giving it, as other Pokémon with healer and cute charm usually have vastly different designs(and a lot less weight).

 

[SuessMD]

I would like to throw in another mention of Leaf Guard, since it fits the sun-themed aspect of this project quite well and is a 'guardian' flavour ability, many of which have already been mentioned. I can definitely see where it might be considered too competitive for a flavour ability, but I don't think anyone addressed that when it was first suggested, so I thought it deserved another mention.

I am a fan of Healer (or maybe Symbiosis) over Cute Charm as an ability to emphasize the Fairy typing because I think it works better with the 'helpful mystical tree' vibe Jumbao has going for it. Cute Charm to me is associated with Pokemon that are either cuddly or emphatically beautiful, neither of which are the first words that come to mind for Jumbao.

These have already been discussed thoroughly, but I would also like to throw in some extra support for Overcoat, Klutz, and Frisk.

 

[Pipotchi]

I think Cute Charm is kinda uninspired. Hundreds of Pokemon are cute, but the criteria for Cute Charm is either a small Pokemon that you would want to look after and feel bad for attacking (clefable/wigglytuff line, skitty, cinccino etc) OR a pokemon that is beautiful and prefers to avoid combat (lopunny, milotic).
Bao towers over the majority of mons and has a strange shape, so its very hard to think of them falling in love with them. Its cute to us perhaps, but it doesnt seem to be a mon that other pokemon would feel bad for attacking or a pokemon that would avoid attacking- its sumo nature suggests it would want to fight with other pokemon for fun, and even suggests a sense of honor.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Personally, I think Overcoat fits Jumbao's flavor beautifully, considering how it must endure two weathers instead of one thanks to our concept as well as its generally durable appearance, and it absolutely is my personal top choice of Flavor Ability. Healer I also think is interesting because of a lot of the subtext that Jumbao tends to tell (see Wish, Grassy Terrain, and Healing Wish), so I think that is ability is also a great choice for it, as well as it being useless in Singles.

Leaf Guard works as flavor pretty decently, but it really does feel right for Jumbao, maybe because it doesn't have as strong flavor synergy as Overcoat, maybe its just me, I don't know.

Cute Charm I honestly do not understand as flavor. The mons that usually carry Cute Charm are often described as cute or adorable in their Pokeedex entries as well as movepools at least, a trend that Jumbao does not seem to be following in the current Dex Entries submissions and certainly is not followed in the movepool to the extent of the others. Jumbao is very much embracing the more "tough yet benevolent" personality based on current factors, and while there are exceptions to the cute rule in the Pokedex entries, such as with Mincinno and Lopunny, none of them express a particularly tough persona. Otherwise, cuteness is purely subjective and basing a permanent fixture on Jumbao based on subjective opinion seems funky as hell. Same kind of idea for Klutz in terms of its cuteness factor.

 

[Steam Buns]

I'd like to support Sand Veil as an option, largely for the same reasons people are supporting overcoat but I think sand veil is a better option in a couple of ways.
Firstly overcoat also provides immunity to hail which is contradictory to the idea of Jumbao being a resident of arid climates why would it then flourish in cold weather. Additionally when looking at the design the you wouldn't immediately think of it as having the thick outer coat to protect its body overcoat is suggestive of, or at least not the way you would when seeing another mon with overcoat like Reuniclus for example.
and sand veil is a pretty harmless competitive ability you would rarely choose it over the other abilities excluding very specific cases.

I also just think the idea of being obscured by a veil of sand has a sort of mystical allure befitting of our desert fairy.

 

[Hobie]

sand veil is a pretty harmless competitive ability you would rarely choose it over the other abilities excluding very specific cases.

I don't disagree with you that Sand Veil would be consistanty worse then the other abilities, however evasion is inherently uncompetative and adding that aspect to Jumbao would be something that I'm vehemently opposed to.

 

[Salizar]

Overgrow and Frisk both sound great, and makes some sense as far as flavor goes.

 

[Dogfish44]

On my phone, but let’s rant against an ability quickly!

Overgrow
Overgrow appears on FWG cores, but you can make the reasonable argument that that’s just because we haven’t made them yet. However, another requirement for Overgrow is in the move pool (like Sweet Scent for Honey Gather). More specifically, Grass Pledge appears on 100% of Pokemon with Overgrow (even the monkeys), and the fact that it’s not a move we have leads me to reckon that Overgrow would be a poor flavour choice.

 

[G-Luke]

On my phone, but let’s rant against an ability quickly!

Overgrow
Overgrow appears on FWG cores, but you can make the reasonable argument that that’s just because we haven’t made them yet. However, another requirement for Overgrow is in the move pool (like Sweet Scent for Honey Gather). More specifically, Grass Pledge appears on 100% of Pokemon with Overgrow (even the monkeys), and the fact that it’s not a move we have leads me to reckon that Overgrow would be a poor flavour choice.

Don't forget Frenzy Plant (yes even the monkeys)

 

[Birkal]

We will wrap this up in about 48 hours.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

Don't forget Frenzy Plant (yes even the monkeys)

Further to that, it has been decided that there is only going to be one prevo means that we'd have to consider the possibility of another element trio like the monkeys. Not going to lie, the concept of an "Elemen-tree-o" works rather well as a concept. Rather than listing new ones, I throw support behind the following of the ones listed.

Cursed Body
Forewarn
Healer
Klutz
Natural Cure
Oblivious
Pressure
Sand Veil
Sticky Hold
Symbiosis
Tangled Feet
Unnerve