What would this do that Zapdos couldn't? What eould need to be different with this typing in play, given that Zapdos can do that already. I doubt Zapdos with Drought is something that sun is missing. If
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CAP 24 CAP 24 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion
- Thread starter Deck Knight
- Start date
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What would this do that Zapdos couldn't? What eould need to be different with this typing in play, given that Zapdos can do that already. I doubt Zapdos with Drought is something that sun is missing. If
For starters: I'm new here. Hi.
Second: At the beginning of the thread, it states that you are trying to create:
Second: At the beginning of the thread, it states that you are trying to create:
- Description - A Pokemon that abuses 2 weather conditions for different effects
Hi and welcome to CAP! As the submitter of the concept, I feel I can speak on behalf of the direction this concept is going. Yes the backbone of the concept is abusing weather, but another main goal of the project was to increase the viability of sun and sand teams. If you think about it, you can't accomplish the former without the latter, as what's the purpose of abusing weather if weather isn't good? The answer to your questions is both, and the final goal should be making a viable weather abuser, but first we need to make weather itself viable. Hope this helped!
This is a good point and a good post. I'd mention in the Concept Assessment, we listed "filling holes on Sun and Sand teams" as a priority for this concept. I'd also argue that Typing isn't really a stage where we can make a Pokemon into a weather abuser, that's best done in Abilities and especially Movepool.
Sun and Sand don't have too many typing-specific enhancements. A Pokemon can still abuse the boost to Fire-type moves regardless of whether it has Fire STAB. A Pokemon can enjoy the added Water resistance regardless of its typing. I'll concede we would need to make this Pokemon Rock-type to take advantage of the Special Defense boost, but we can take advantage of the residual damage from Sand through either Typing or Ability.
You're absolutely right that the concept says to abuse the weather conditions, and we definitely should not lose sight of that during the creation process. However, I think Typing is our best bet to fulfill the "fix Sun and Sand teams" part of the concept and ensuring we abuse the weather can be handled in future stages.
CAP24 doesnt need to be a carbon copy of Zapdos even if they are both to be special attackers. CAP24 is seemingly leaning towards being a weather setter and/or breaker, while Zapdos has a defensive and/or defogging role. Keldeo, Greninja, Venusaur, Hippowdon, Megapert, Greninja, and Dragon types are all mons that could be targets for CAP24 to beat offensively and/or switch into defensively. They are going to check a number of similar mons thanks to the same typing, and Zapdos is a good mon, but Zapdos doesnt abuse Sun or Sand to the extent that CAP24 has the potential to.
While I was thinking about Fighting/Rock as a possible typing (a dead end), I had a thought about Electric/Fighting. Does this not offer quite good offensive and defensive potential for our purposes?
Notable pokemon weak to the STAB combination off the top of my head: Tomohawk, Greninja, Colossoil, Pelipper, Skarmory, Celesteela, Arghonaut, Malaconda, Cawmadore, Toxapex, Volkraken, Volcanion, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Hawlucha, Charizard-Y, Tyranitar, Excadrill, Keldeo, Azumarill.
Notable pokemon resistant to the STAB combination: Landorus-T, Gliscor, Tapu Koko, Lati@s, Tapu Bulu, Venusaur, Mega Altaria, Celebi.
I notice the first list contains a fair few pokemon we are worried about. The second has one or two big names and some others that frankly aren't that viable, and only included to make up the numbers when I found a surprisingly low number of applicants.
Weaknesses: Fairy, Ground, Psychic
Resistances: Bug, Dark, Electric, Rock, Steel
While this typing does not wall many things in the traditional sense of resisting their STAB (except Scizor and Tapu Koko lacking Dazzling Gleam), it also boasts real potential in that it avoids being hit super effectively by many notable threats (perhaps synergizing well with Shore Up in sand).
How could a pokemon with this typing take advantage of weather itself? Any ideas?
Notable pokemon weak to the STAB combination off the top of my head: Tomohawk, Greninja, Colossoil, Pelipper, Skarmory, Celesteela, Arghonaut, Malaconda, Cawmadore, Toxapex, Volkraken, Volcanion, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Hawlucha, Charizard-Y, Tyranitar, Excadrill, Keldeo, Azumarill.
Notable pokemon resistant to the STAB combination: Landorus-T, Gliscor, Tapu Koko, Lati@s, Tapu Bulu, Venusaur, Mega Altaria, Celebi.
I notice the first list contains a fair few pokemon we are worried about. The second has one or two big names and some others that frankly aren't that viable, and only included to make up the numbers when I found a surprisingly low number of applicants.
Weaknesses: Fairy, Ground, Psychic
Resistances: Bug, Dark, Electric, Rock, Steel
While this typing does not wall many things in the traditional sense of resisting their STAB (except Scizor and Tapu Koko lacking Dazzling Gleam), it also boasts real potential in that it avoids being hit super effectively by many notable threats (perhaps synergizing well with Shore Up in sand).
How could a pokemon with this typing take advantage of weather itself? Any ideas?
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It's a bit of an odd one, given that it doesn't directly benefit from weather, but we could look at:
Ice/Electric
Pipotchi listed these Pokemon as targets:
The Ice/Electric combo is able to hit all of them with SE Stab, aside from a few exceptions:
Venusaur: If we are talking about Mega Venusaur, it will resist Ice. Fortunately, this still hits neutrally, and CAP24 may get coverage moves.
Megapert: Mega Swampert typically depends on rain. If we are able to maintain Sun/Sand weather, it should be a lot weaker. Especially if CAP24 gets a Solar move, we can easily defeat it in Sun, otherwise we hit it neutrally with Ice, and CAP24 may get Grass type coverage.
This struggles in some notable places, however, as it shares the all too common weakness to Fighting among Sand users, does not provide a Water Resistance, and gets no boost to STAB.
Replacement types could be:
Ice/Electric
Pipotchi listed these Pokemon as targets:
The Ice/Electric combo is able to hit all of them with SE Stab, aside from a few exceptions:
Venusaur: If we are talking about Mega Venusaur, it will resist Ice. Fortunately, this still hits neutrally, and CAP24 may get coverage moves.
Megapert: Mega Swampert typically depends on rain. If we are able to maintain Sun/Sand weather, it should be a lot weaker. Especially if CAP24 gets a Solar move, we can easily defeat it in Sun, otherwise we hit it neutrally with Ice, and CAP24 may get Grass type coverage.
This struggles in some notable places, however, as it shares the all too common weakness to Fighting among Sand users, does not provide a Water Resistance, and gets no boost to STAB.
Replacement types could be:
- Ice/Ghost or Electric/Ghost to remove Fighting issues, with the former targeting Dragon and Ground types, and the latter Water
- Grass/Electric [Other people have mentioned its merits]
- Grass/Ghost to remove Fighting issues, combat Water threats, and benefit from Solar moves if we get them. Unfortunately, it leaves us weak to Dark Pulse
- Dragon/Grass to hard counter Water-types, while being able to hit MegaSwampert, Greninja, and Dragon-types hard. Also removes common Ground-type weakness from Sand teams while giving potential STAB to Solar moves in the Sun. I really like this.
Ice is not a good type for this concept. We gave up hail and Ice offers literally no unique utility that couldn't be provided by another type (Dragon/Flying beats all of those mons bar Hippo so much better) and I see no reason to use it at all. Additionally, it in combination with Electric is, in my opinion, easily in the running for the worst possible defensive typing we could have, and its barely even a decent offensive typing. I need to see a really, really good example of how being an Ice-type provides any advantage to this Pokemon in order to take any submission with it included seriously.
E: Also Ghost is a bad idea, Fairy- and Flying-types are so much better for checking Fightings, and I don't think being trapped by Colossoil is a good idea for this CAP in any world.
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It doesn't need to be a carbon copy, but I'm not sure that Electric/Flying is going to be able to cut it when Zapdos already provides the ability to target all of those depending on set. CAP24 with Flying/Electric is then going to be stuck with being specifically a 125 SpA+ mon, that can't copy Zapdos utility. So a moveset encouraging all out attacking, and can't be anywhere near as defensive as zapdos (and its stats aren't massive defensively). Plus, there's also the issue that this mon then lacks its most effective offensive STABs if we have to remove Hurricane and Thunder because then that supports Rain teams, unless you are forced to run Drought/Sand Stream, making this mon over proscriptive.
Electric/Flying is not good at all, and arguably entirely anti concept.
Water/Grass with appropriate coverage can not only resist Rain team strength, but encourage the effectivness elsewhere within a team: Lightning Rod Marowak-A switching into a baiting Thunder, or Tyranitar switching into a Hurricane, 4x or even 8x resisting Water under Sun.
5: When addressing both sand and sun at once in a typing, what weaknesses can be exposed on a greater scale? A typing may appear to work extremely well within both weathers, but could it have fundamental problems? Again, some discussion has been done on similar points (like the debate over types like Rock defensively) but it requires some more conscious thought.
I've been thinking about this for a while now, and I think I've struck upon something that might prove beneficial to consider. As I've said before, I don't play Pokemon competitively. I don't have anything against people who do play competitively, and I even incorporate strategies and concepts found here on Smogon into my normal play, but I've just never gotten into Pokemon as anything other than a game. What I have gotten into is statistics, and I had the thought to look at the question of what weaknesses Sun and Sand have together via a statistical analysis. Long story short, I assigned numeric values to each Type based on their Type-effectiveness to each combination of Fire, Grass, Rock, Ground and Steel Types, the five main Types used on Sun and Sand teams. The idea was to look at the threats these Types pose, not to individual Pokemon on the team, but to the team itself, based on a hypothetical "generic Sun/Sand team".
Before anyone says it, this is not a perfect system. It doesn't take a great many things into account, like unusual team compositions, or commonly used Pokemon that don't have any of those types. It doesn't factor in whether certain Types are generally seen as "offensive" or "defensive", or the viability of attacks coming from those Types. It doesn't address Abilities that might alter Type interactions, or the offensive capability of individual Pokemon. Honestly, it can't even take weather into account, and that's the entire point of this CAP. It's a flawed system, but it's not a pointless one. What this system does is let us take a snapshot of what generally threatens, and does not threaten, Sun and Sand, based purely on the numbers. Some of what I found will seem fairly obvious, but some of it might be a bit surprising.
For starters, Water and Ground are tied for number one most threatening Type to both Sun and Sand. Big surprise, right? It's not like everyone's been worried about Ash Greninja and Landorus or anything. The next most threatening Type is Fighting, which means Tomohawk still rounds out our big three, though perhaps not for the same reasons that everyone things it might. While Flying is a danger to pure Sun teams, the influx of Rock, Ground and Steel types that Sand brings in relegates Flying to 8th most threatening Type, below Ghost and Dark, and tied with Rock, Steel and Bug. Statistically, we have more to worry about from Tomohawk's Fighting arsenal, which doesn't mitigate it's threat in my opinion.
What I found very interesting is that, after Fighting, the next most threatening Type to Sun and Sand is a tie between Fire and Ice, Types that haven't, to my knowledge, gotten a lot of attention thus far. Both deal generally neutral damage to Sun and Sand, while dealing a lot of damage to most Grass types and hitting Steel and Rock hard in certain match ups. This means we may have threats coming at us from some unexpected directions, and might want to take another look at what we want CAP 24 to deal with.
For those who are interested, the remaining Types are, in order of greatest threat to least threat: Grass, tie between Poison, Fairy and Normal, tie between Dragon and Psychic, and lastly Electric. None of that should be particularly surprising, but I thought you might want to know.
As I said before, I know this is a flawed system. It's not the be-all and end-all of Typing discussion, and I certainly don't believe that everyone should base their future discussions off this concept. Honestly, I'm not even sure if this is relevant. However, I do believe that there is something to be gained from an objective perspective such as this one, and it has lent me some insight into what might be an effective Typing, if nothing else.
I'm honestly not as interested in Grass/Rock anymore. Not only is it weak to two of the top five most threatening Types (Fighting and Ice), it's only resistant to two of the least threatening Types to Sun and Sand, Normal and Electric. While I do still like the STAB combo, and the resistance to Sand damage is nice, I'm no longer sure the pros outweigh the cons. I don't think this is a bad Type to consider, but I think there are better.
Fire/Dragon may have a highly appealing STAB combo, but it's weak to Ground, arguably the most threatening Type to Sun and Sand, and while it does have a nifty 4X resistance to Fire, that's the only major threat it resists. In terms of resisting things Sun and Sand needs to resist, Fire/Dragon doesn't really add to much to the equation, but it does add another Ground weakness that we might not want to deal with. I'm on the fence on if the stellar offensive prowess is worth the lackluster defensive contribution, but this isn't meant to be a defensive Pokemon anyway, so that might not be an issue.
Grass/Fairy is a bit of a mixed bag, in my opinion. On the one hand, it resists Ground, Water and Fighting, the most threatening Types to Sun and Sand, as well as Dark which gets honorable mention for being Ash Greninja's other STAB, and is naturally immune to Dragon to boot. On the other, it's weak to both Ice and Fire, which might upon us up to threats we didn't know we would have to deal with. While you could argue that our own Sun neuters Ice and we have Fire types to resist, Fire, by itself Grass/Fairy would be hard pressed to deal with these Types, and doesn't add much that Sun/Sand really needs. It's offensive coverage is also questionable, since it's STABS miss out on some needed coverage, and there's no one Type (that I found, anyway) that nets it all the coverage it might want. In other words, Grass/Fairy would have to run 4 attacks and no utility, which might hinder it depending on decisions we make later on. Electric/Grass is even shakier, being weak to both Fire and Ice, but only resisting Water. Offensively, it's in a better position than Grass/Fairy, but might still have issues, again depending on decisions we make down the road.
As much as I dislike the notion of a Water Type on a Sun/Sand team, Water/Fairy is a very solid choice, being neutral to Ground and resisting Fighting, Water, Fire and Ice. It's weaknesses are to largely unimportant Types, and it's other resistances to Bug and Dark are useful, as is the Dragon immunity. I'm not so sure of it's offensive abilities, as I'd rather not have one of our STABS nerfed in the Sun, but some Fire coverage is all it would need to be a fine, if unorthodox, wall breaker.
I know I haven't addressed all of the Types that have been suggested thus far, but I would like to take this moment to propose something that I don't think anyone has suggested (If I'm wrong, I apologize for stealing your idea). Dragon/Fairy is admittedly a bit shakier on defense than Water/Fairy, being weak to Ice and neutral to Ground, but it's other weaknesses are to mostly defensive Types, and it has a few more useful resistances to play with. However, what sells it for me is it's offense: Dragon/Fairy is a fantastic STAB combo, being walled only by Steel Types. With Fire coverage, CAP 24 would hit literally every Pokemon in the game, including, I believe, every other CAPmon, for at least neutral damage. If we want a wall breaker, it's hard to pass up utterly perfect coverage with one move slot to spare.
If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to give my take a certain Type combos based on my statistical analysis. If not, that's fine, too. I know not everyone is going to like or appreciate this idea. I know some people will probably hate it. That's just part of life. As it is, I know this already a beast of a post, so I think I'll call it good for now.
(EDIT: Water/Fairy/Ghost and Water/Fairy/Dark both hit everything in the game for at least neutral damage. I still feel Dragon/Fairy/Fire coverage is better for the pseudo STAB in Sun, but I wanted to be honest in my assessment of the Typing.)
I've been thinking about this for a while now, and I think I've struck upon something that might prove beneficial to consider. As I've said before, I don't play Pokemon competitively. I don't have anything against people who do play competitively, and I even incorporate strategies and concepts found here on Smogon into my normal play, but I've just never gotten into Pokemon as anything other than a game. What I have gotten into is statistics, and I had the thought to look at the question of what weaknesses Sun and Sand have together via a statistical analysis. Long story short, I assigned numeric values to each Type based on their Type-effectiveness to each combination of Fire, Grass, Rock, Ground and Steel Types, the five main Types used on Sun and Sand teams. The idea was to look at the threats these Types pose, not to individual Pokemon on the team, but to the team itself, based on a hypothetical "generic Sun/Sand team".
Before anyone says it, this is not a perfect system. It doesn't take a great many things into account, like unusual team compositions, or commonly used Pokemon that don't have any of those types. It doesn't factor in whether certain Types are generally seen as "offensive" or "defensive", or the viability of attacks coming from those Types. It doesn't address Abilities that might alter Type interactions, or the offensive capability of individual Pokemon. Honestly, it can't even take weather into account, and that's the entire point of this CAP. It's a flawed system, but it's not a pointless one. What this system does is let us take a snapshot of what generally threatens, and does not threaten, Sun and Sand, based purely on the numbers. Some of what I found will seem fairly obvious, but some of it might be a bit surprising.
For starters, Water and Ground are tied for number one most threatening Type to both Sun and Sand. Big surprise, right? It's not like everyone's been worried about Ash Greninja and Landorus or anything. The next most threatening Type is Fighting, which means Tomohawk still rounds out our big three, though perhaps not for the same reasons that everyone things it might. While Flying is a danger to pure Sun teams, the influx of Rock, Ground and Steel types that Sand brings in relegates Flying to 8th most threatening Type, below Ghost and Dark, and tied with Rock, Steel and Bug. Statistically, we have more to worry about from Tomohawk's Fighting arsenal, which doesn't mitigate it's threat in my opinion.
What I found very interesting is that, after Fighting, the next most threatening Type to Sun and Sand is a tie between Fire and Ice, Types that haven't, to my knowledge, gotten a lot of attention thus far. Both deal generally neutral damage to Sun and Sand, while dealing a lot of damage to most Grass types and hitting Steel and Rock hard in certain match ups. This means we may have threats coming at us from some unexpected directions, and might want to take another look at what we want CAP 24 to deal with.
For those who are interested, the remaining Types are, in order of greatest threat to least threat: Grass, tie between Poison, Fairy and Normal, tie between Dragon and Psychic, and lastly Electric. None of that should be particularly surprising, but I thought you might want to know.
As I said before, I know this is a flawed system. It's not the be-all and end-all of Typing discussion, and I certainly don't believe that everyone should base their future discussions off this concept. Honestly, I'm not even sure if this is relevant. However, I do believe that there is something to be gained from an objective perspective such as this one, and it has lent me some insight into what might be an effective Typing, if nothing else.
I'm honestly not as interested in Grass/Rock anymore. Not only is it weak to two of the top five most threatening Types (Fighting and Ice), it's only resistant to two of the least threatening Types to Sun and Sand, Normal and Electric. While I do still like the STAB combo, and the resistance to Sand damage is nice, I'm no longer sure the pros outweigh the cons. I don't think this is a bad Type to consider, but I think there are better.
Fire/Dragon may have a highly appealing STAB combo, but it's weak to Ground, arguably the most threatening Type to Sun and Sand, and while it does have a nifty 4X resistance to Fire, that's the only major threat it resists. In terms of resisting things Sun and Sand needs to resist, Fire/Dragon doesn't really add to much to the equation, but it does add another Ground weakness that we might not want to deal with. I'm on the fence on if the stellar offensive prowess is worth the lackluster defensive contribution, but this isn't meant to be a defensive Pokemon anyway, so that might not be an issue.
Grass/Fairy is a bit of a mixed bag, in my opinion. On the one hand, it resists Ground, Water and Fighting, the most threatening Types to Sun and Sand, as well as Dark which gets honorable mention for being Ash Greninja's other STAB, and is naturally immune to Dragon to boot. On the other, it's weak to both Ice and Fire, which might upon us up to threats we didn't know we would have to deal with. While you could argue that our own Sun neuters Ice and we have Fire types to resist, Fire, by itself Grass/Fairy would be hard pressed to deal with these Types, and doesn't add much that Sun/Sand really needs. It's offensive coverage is also questionable, since it's STABS miss out on some needed coverage, and there's no one Type (that I found, anyway) that nets it all the coverage it might want. In other words, Grass/Fairy would have to run 4 attacks and no utility, which might hinder it depending on decisions we make later on. Electric/Grass is even shakier, being weak to both Fire and Ice, but only resisting Water. Offensively, it's in a better position than Grass/Fairy, but might still have issues, again depending on decisions we make down the road.
As much as I dislike the notion of a Water Type on a Sun/Sand team, Water/Fairy is a very solid choice, being neutral to Ground and resisting Fighting, Water, Fire and Ice. It's weaknesses are to largely unimportant Types, and it's other resistances to Bug and Dark are useful, as is the Dragon immunity. I'm not so sure of it's offensive abilities, as I'd rather not have one of our STABS nerfed in the Sun, but some Fire coverage is all it would need to be a fine, if unorthodox, wall breaker.
I know I haven't addressed all of the Types that have been suggested thus far, but I would like to take this moment to propose something that I don't think anyone has suggested (If I'm wrong, I apologize for stealing your idea). Dragon/Fairy is admittedly a bit shakier on defense than Water/Fairy, being weak to Ice and neutral to Ground, but it's other weaknesses are to mostly defensive Types, and it has a few more useful resistances to play with. However, what sells it for me is it's offense: Dragon/Fairy is a fantastic STAB combo, being walled only by Steel Types. With Fire coverage, CAP 24 would hit literally every Pokemon in the game, including, I believe, every other CAPmon, for at least neutral damage. If we want a wall breaker, it's hard to pass up utterly perfect coverage with one move slot to spare.
If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to give my take a certain Type combos based on my statistical analysis. If not, that's fine, too. I know not everyone is going to like or appreciate this idea. I know some people will probably hate it. That's just part of life. As it is, I know this already a beast of a post, so I think I'll call it good for now.
(EDIT: Water/Fairy/Ghost and Water/Fairy/Dark both hit everything in the game for at least neutral damage. I still feel Dragon/Fairy/Fire coverage is better for the pseudo STAB in Sun, but I wanted to be honest in my assessment of the Typing.)
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1: Now that we've narrowed down to Sun and Sand, what areas and roles do these two weathers struggle or lack in? Are any of these holes in their team frameworks shared?
Sun and Sand are very uncommon playstyles in the CAP metagame, this is due to both weathers lacking offensive merit to efficiently wallbreak. Sun in particular lacks this the most due to chlorophyll sweepers lacking the movepool, typing and stats to fulfil that role in the metagame. Sand also lacks this with Excadrill lacking, the movepool to break through common threats such as Celesteela, Landorus-T, Tomohawk, Skarmory, Zapdos if lacking Rock Slide, Arghonaut, Pyroak and Rotom-Wash. Not only this, Excadrill and Tyranitar lack typing synergy at all, any Pokemon that were to come in on Tyranitar doesn't allow a free switch into Excadrill to then abuse this. This is unlike Rain and Sun, as they both have U-turn and rain has Mega Swampert to come in on electric or rock type attacks for Pelipper.(As well as ferrothorn)
2: What typings address the weaknesses of Sun/Sand teams individually?
A lot of typings have been brought up in this thread, and I'm pleased with what has been said so far. Generally, I share the same general opinion that Sand teams are in need of a ground check, but I feel like a fighting check is just as important as a ground check.
However, this is just defensively, offensively I think we should definitely not be focusing on overkilling some of excadrills checks, as then they will not come in on Cap24 and we won't be able to effectively break them. In order to pair an offensive Pokemon with Excadrill we would need to be at least welcoming for Pokemon like Celesteela, Lando-T, Tomohawk, Arghonaut and Pyroak to come in on.
As for sun, a typing that would pressure dragons is preferred but not necessarily a must have, due to wallbreakers such as Volkraken being able to easily break them. I think the main thing to avoid is stacking any defensive weaknesses such as Rock for example.
Supporting Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Sun: 273-321 (90.6 - 106.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pajantom in Sun: 271-319 (87.7 - 103.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde in Sun: 309-364 (86.3 - 101.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volkraken Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde in Sun: 205-243 (57.2 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volkraken Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 412-486 (115 - 135.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cyclohm in Sun: 397-468 (94.5 - 111.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
3: Is it better to have a different typing than the common Pokemon on current Sun/Sand teams, or to stack typings with existing abusers?
I don't think stacking typings with existing abusers is optimal if we intend for these abusers to be used alongside Cap24. Weather teams already have a trend of stacking weaknesses/typings and for us to feed into this more wouldn't be appropriate for this process.
This is all I had time for, will have my thoughts on other things up soon.
Sun and Sand are very uncommon playstyles in the CAP metagame, this is due to both weathers lacking offensive merit to efficiently wallbreak. Sun in particular lacks this the most due to chlorophyll sweepers lacking the movepool, typing and stats to fulfil that role in the metagame. Sand also lacks this with Excadrill lacking, the movepool to break through common threats such as Celesteela, Landorus-T, Tomohawk, Skarmory, Zapdos if lacking Rock Slide, Arghonaut, Pyroak and Rotom-Wash. Not only this, Excadrill and Tyranitar lack typing synergy at all, any Pokemon that were to come in on Tyranitar doesn't allow a free switch into Excadrill to then abuse this. This is unlike Rain and Sun, as they both have U-turn and rain has Mega Swampert to come in on electric or rock type attacks for Pelipper.(As well as ferrothorn)
2: What typings address the weaknesses of Sun/Sand teams individually?
A lot of typings have been brought up in this thread, and I'm pleased with what has been said so far. Generally, I share the same general opinion that Sand teams are in need of a ground check, but I feel like a fighting check is just as important as a ground check.
However, this is just defensively, offensively I think we should definitely not be focusing on overkilling some of excadrills checks, as then they will not come in on Cap24 and we won't be able to effectively break them. In order to pair an offensive Pokemon with Excadrill we would need to be at least welcoming for Pokemon like Celesteela, Lando-T, Tomohawk, Arghonaut and Pyroak to come in on.
As for sun, a typing that would pressure dragons is preferred but not necessarily a must have, due to wallbreakers such as Volkraken being able to easily break them. I think the main thing to avoid is stacking any defensive weaknesses such as Rock for example.
Supporting Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Sun: 273-321 (90.6 - 106.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pajantom in Sun: 271-319 (87.7 - 103.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde in Sun: 309-364 (86.3 - 101.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volkraken Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde in Sun: 205-243 (57.2 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volkraken Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 412-486 (115 - 135.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cyclohm in Sun: 397-468 (94.5 - 111.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
3: Is it better to have a different typing than the common Pokemon on current Sun/Sand teams, or to stack typings with existing abusers?
I don't think stacking typings with existing abusers is optimal if we intend for these abusers to be used alongside Cap24. Weather teams already have a trend of stacking weaknesses/typings and for us to feed into this more wouldn't be appropriate for this process.
This is all I had time for, will have my thoughts on other things up soon.
4: When addressing both sand and sun at once in a typing, what issues do we specifically have to address?
CAP24, when being used to participate in both teams, cannot be weak to common problem mon or typings, without having a defined counter for such. Under Sun, Water's SE is mitigated slightly, but that doesn't make the resilience to the same common weaknesses; Fire-type STABs get boosted. Sun and Sand often have slightly different weaknesses;
Sun - Flying, Rock, Ground and Rain Teams
Sand - Fighting, Bug, Ground, Water, and Rain Teams
Ground and Rain teams come up in both, and should be a priority. Rain Team removes the weather we're building towards to be beneficial, and Ground hits hard, is often STAB boosted, and/or resists. There are other common weaknesses.
If I was to say Grass/Water; that leaves Flying, Bug, and Poison as weaknesses. The main counter to that is Magnezone. Now, he's susceptible to Fire coverage in the Sun, which is where we get help from Heatran. Both of these can absorb an Earthquake with Air Balloon, while aforementioned suggestion for CAP24 gets 2* Resist, while Heatran not only gets a boost in the sun, but also a SpA boost from Flash Fire, and can run a Bloom Doom/Solar Beam to take on any waters switching in. If Ash-Greninja is going to be a problem, well, that's where Kerfluffle comes in, providing some very useful coverage, especially with HP-Ground to take on M-Crucibelle who might want to drop in to say Hi, before outspeeding. If there's a bug running about, Char-Y, Blacephalon or Marowak-A can intercept.
In Sand, the weakness to Water is less of an issue; using Water/Grass it has a 4* Resist to water, even with the boosted stats. With neutral to Ice, resists to Water and Ground, the swiftswimmers aren't going to be happy, and it's okay to switch into a Draco-Meteor with a fairy type, which leaves the Swift Swimmers up the creek without a paddle. Itself gets a small boost from the water type in that it can punch back harder with its Water STAB if necessary. The weakness this type has to Hurricane in the rain can be mitigated with Tyranitar who can Resist; while the bug and Tomohawk weakness can be mitigated via Kerfluffle somewhat.
5: When addressing both sand and sun at once in a typing, what weaknesses can be exposed on a greater scale? A typing may appear to work extremely well within both weathers, but could it have fundamental problems? Again, some discussion has been done on similar points (like the debate over types like Rock defensively) but it requires some more concious thought.
Ah. I think I've addressed this above.
The Water/Grass provides outlets for the other mon within a Sun and or Sand team to be required to fulfil the gap, while mitigating their own weaknesses with the type.
CAP24, when being used to participate in both teams, cannot be weak to common problem mon or typings, without having a defined counter for such. Under Sun, Water's SE is mitigated slightly, but that doesn't make the resilience to the same common weaknesses; Fire-type STABs get boosted. Sun and Sand often have slightly different weaknesses;
Sun - Flying, Rock, Ground and Rain Teams
Sand - Fighting, Bug, Ground, Water, and Rain Teams
Ground and Rain teams come up in both, and should be a priority. Rain Team removes the weather we're building towards to be beneficial, and Ground hits hard, is often STAB boosted, and/or resists. There are other common weaknesses.
If I was to say Grass/Water; that leaves Flying, Bug, and Poison as weaknesses. The main counter to that is Magnezone. Now, he's susceptible to Fire coverage in the Sun, which is where we get help from Heatran. Both of these can absorb an Earthquake with Air Balloon, while aforementioned suggestion for CAP24 gets 2* Resist, while Heatran not only gets a boost in the sun, but also a SpA boost from Flash Fire, and can run a Bloom Doom/Solar Beam to take on any waters switching in. If Ash-Greninja is going to be a problem, well, that's where Kerfluffle comes in, providing some very useful coverage, especially with HP-Ground to take on M-Crucibelle who might want to drop in to say Hi, before outspeeding. If there's a bug running about, Char-Y, Blacephalon or Marowak-A can intercept.
In Sand, the weakness to Water is less of an issue; using Water/Grass it has a 4* Resist to water, even with the boosted stats. With neutral to Ice, resists to Water and Ground, the swiftswimmers aren't going to be happy, and it's okay to switch into a Draco-Meteor with a fairy type, which leaves the Swift Swimmers up the creek without a paddle. Itself gets a small boost from the water type in that it can punch back harder with its Water STAB if necessary. The weakness this type has to Hurricane in the rain can be mitigated with Tyranitar who can Resist; while the bug and Tomohawk weakness can be mitigated via Kerfluffle somewhat.
5: When addressing both sand and sun at once in a typing, what weaknesses can be exposed on a greater scale? A typing may appear to work extremely well within both weathers, but could it have fundamental problems? Again, some discussion has been done on similar points (like the debate over types like Rock defensively) but it requires some more concious thought.
Ah. I think I've addressed this above.
The Water/Grass provides outlets for the other mon within a Sun and or Sand team to be required to fulfil the gap, while mitigating their own weaknesses with the type.
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I think this is all a bit too specific for this stage of the CAP process, since the concept we’re working with does not mention specific Pokémon as partners. We want a CAP that’s flexible enough to perform its role well in more than one very particular team structure. Although it’s important to think of this Pokémon as being part of a team when assessing how it will fulfil the concept and deciding what limitations we can accept, we don’t want to constrain ourselves too much this early in the process.
Also Magnezone does not have Levitate as one of its abilities, which you seem to imply in this post and a previous one, and Hurricane’s accuracy does not decrease to 50% when a sandstorm is raging. I’m being a bit pedantic there, but it’s important to get all the little things right to avoid confusion.
EDIT: reworded for clarity
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It's going in a Sun or Sand Team. It's partners are already present.
I originally had Rotom Heat, but didn't change the ability; fixed. Don't know how I got that Sandstorm 50% from; probably was shifting between the tabs too quickly. Thanks for the clarifications though :)
I originally had Rotom Heat, but didn't change the ability; fixed. Don't know how I got that Sandstorm 50% from; probably was shifting between the tabs too quickly. Thanks for the clarifications though :)
Alright, first off I want to apologize for being somewhat inactive on this thread, been a very unlucky and busy week for me. I wanted to give my views on a few arguments and typings:
FLYING: this has been a very contentious debate with some serious pros and cons. I don't think the idea that hurricane alone is going to make this a rain abuser is a strong argument; there's just better abusers to use, even for just hurricane spamming. I think a major concern is what DLC pointed out about it: it's horrid with special attacking bar the sun-invalidated Hurricane, and having a weak stab is really bad in my mind. We'll have limited turns of weather, we need to make use of them.
DRAGON: This has been growing on me. Offensively, the type has a solid amount of pressure with neutral coverage, which seems to fit well with the idea of abusing weather, doesn't overlap typings with any real abusers now, and a water resist for Ash Gren. Feels like a just solid, generically good typing, especially when paired with another to increase it's defensive capabilities and patch some of it's holes: stuff like hitting Tran for sun and resisting/being immune to Ground for both weathers.
FAIRY: Again, another sorta generically good typing. Defensively it's very strong- Dark resist for Ash Gren, fighting resist, the like- and it succeeds offensively in some areas- hitting Tomo, good neutral coverage when considering common mons on both weathers like seeing steel types. Feels like it benefits heavily from a secondary typing.
GRASS: I can't say I'm the biggest fan of this. I stand by just about everything MXMTS said on page three, and think that it's upsides are done better by other types. It's not a good STAB, especially in a meta filled with stuff like Tomo, Heatran and steels like Celesteela, and doesn't offer much to either weather offensively, but it's defensive highlights feel outdone when looking at say, Dragon for water-resisting. It's got some niches, but I'm not all that high on it.
ROCK: This is almost an inverse of Grass for me. Offensively, as has been pointed out, it's great, and can get through a lot of common types with strong STABs, but defensively what does it do? We sacrifice the chance to resist Ash-Gren, become weak to Ground, and lose to common types like Steel and Fighting, which have popped up as concerns. We become very offensive if we decide to go with a Rock typing in my eyes, as the defensive weaknesses seem too much, even when paired with stuff like Flying for the Ground and Fighting issues, or Grass for Water and Steel.
FIRE: Very similar to Rock in my eyes. We hit stuff very, very hard: sun boosted Fire stab roasts a ton of the meta, and it hits at least neutrally threats to sand. My worry again falls in defensive capability: it hits few to none of our criteria of what we need this CAP to do: loses to Gren and stacks weaknesses to Water and Ground on both weathers.
That's my thoughts from reading through the thread and mulling it over, if anyone has anything they'd like me to address just let me know and I will write up another post. I'd like to wrap this up by saying Type Submissions are officially open, and I'll be working on a slate in the upcoming days. Thank you guys for even more quality discussion on the questions and types as a whole, it's been great to see and sets us on a great path for this CAP!
FLYING: this has been a very contentious debate with some serious pros and cons. I don't think the idea that hurricane alone is going to make this a rain abuser is a strong argument; there's just better abusers to use, even for just hurricane spamming. I think a major concern is what DLC pointed out about it: it's horrid with special attacking bar the sun-invalidated Hurricane, and having a weak stab is really bad in my mind. We'll have limited turns of weather, we need to make use of them.
DRAGON: This has been growing on me. Offensively, the type has a solid amount of pressure with neutral coverage, which seems to fit well with the idea of abusing weather, doesn't overlap typings with any real abusers now, and a water resist for Ash Gren. Feels like a just solid, generically good typing, especially when paired with another to increase it's defensive capabilities and patch some of it's holes: stuff like hitting Tran for sun and resisting/being immune to Ground for both weathers.
FAIRY: Again, another sorta generically good typing. Defensively it's very strong- Dark resist for Ash Gren, fighting resist, the like- and it succeeds offensively in some areas- hitting Tomo, good neutral coverage when considering common mons on both weathers like seeing steel types. Feels like it benefits heavily from a secondary typing.
GRASS: I can't say I'm the biggest fan of this. I stand by just about everything MXMTS said on page three, and think that it's upsides are done better by other types. It's not a good STAB, especially in a meta filled with stuff like Tomo, Heatran and steels like Celesteela, and doesn't offer much to either weather offensively, but it's defensive highlights feel outdone when looking at say, Dragon for water-resisting. It's got some niches, but I'm not all that high on it.
ROCK: This is almost an inverse of Grass for me. Offensively, as has been pointed out, it's great, and can get through a lot of common types with strong STABs, but defensively what does it do? We sacrifice the chance to resist Ash-Gren, become weak to Ground, and lose to common types like Steel and Fighting, which have popped up as concerns. We become very offensive if we decide to go with a Rock typing in my eyes, as the defensive weaknesses seem too much, even when paired with stuff like Flying for the Ground and Fighting issues, or Grass for Water and Steel.
FIRE: Very similar to Rock in my eyes. We hit stuff very, very hard: sun boosted Fire stab roasts a ton of the meta, and it hits at least neutrally threats to sand. My worry again falls in defensive capability: it hits few to none of our criteria of what we need this CAP to do: loses to Gren and stacks weaknesses to Water and Ground on both weathers.
That's my thoughts from reading through the thread and mulling it over, if anyone has anything they'd like me to address just let me know and I will write up another post. I'd like to wrap this up by saying Type Submissions are officially open, and I'll be working on a slate in the upcoming days. Thank you guys for even more quality discussion on the questions and types as a whole, it's been great to see and sets us on a great path for this CAP!
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WIP for Rock / Flying
Weaknesses: Electric, Ice, Rock, Steel, Water
Resistances: Bug, Fire, Flying, Normal, Poison
Immunities: Ground
Hits SE: Bug, Fighting, Fire, Flying, Grass, Ice
Resisted By: Steel, Rock / Ground, Stunfisk, but perfect coverage with Ground and near-perfect with Fire
Pros:
-Is probably the best offensive typing for this CAP
-Perfect Coverage with common sun and sand coverage types
-Immune to Ground
-Benefits from Sand SpD boost and Sun Water resist
-Can beat Tomohawk and Hawlucha
-Kills Pelipper and (if necessary) Malaconda and Charizard Y
-Immune to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Sticky Web
-4x U-turn resist
Cons:
-Weak to Stealth Rock
-Weak to Water (although can overcome Ash-Greninja) if under sand or sun
-Powerful special Flying-STABs are hard to come by, especially since Hurricane is bad in sun
-Encourages mixed sets, which may be hard to make
-Weak to Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet,and Accelerock, and neutral to Sucker Punch and mach Punch
Weaknesses: Electric, Ice, Rock, Steel, Water
Resistances: Bug, Fire, Flying, Normal, Poison
Immunities: Ground
Hits SE: Bug, Fighting, Fire, Flying, Grass, Ice
Resisted By: Steel, Rock / Ground, Stunfisk, but perfect coverage with Ground and near-perfect with Fire
Pros:
-Is probably the best offensive typing for this CAP
-Perfect Coverage with common sun and sand coverage types
-Immune to Ground
-Benefits from Sand SpD boost and Sun Water resist
-Can beat Tomohawk and Hawlucha
-Kills Pelipper and (if necessary) Malaconda and Charizard Y
-Immune to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Sticky Web
-4x U-turn resist
Cons:
-Weak to Stealth Rock
-Weak to Water (although can overcome Ash-Greninja) if under sand or sun
-Powerful special Flying-STABs are hard to come by, especially since Hurricane is bad in sun
-Encourages mixed sets, which may be hard to make
-Weak to Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet,
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Dragon / Fairy
Weaknesses: Fairy, Ice, Poison, Steel
Resistances: Bug, Dark, Electric, Fighting, Fire, Grass, Water
Immunities: Dragon
Hits SE: Dragon, Dark, Fighting
Resisted By: Steel
Pros:
- Checks Ash-Greninja, Tomohawk and Colossoil
- Very good offensive type that hits at least neutrally almost every type
- Hits neutrally most of the rain elements
- Neutral to the Stealth Rock
- For the sun teams, it has a very wide coverage, resisted only by the Steel type, which can be complemented to its teammates
- For the sand teams, it can hit the bulky Grass and Water types that stops Excadrill
Cons:
- Weak to the common Ice-type coverage
- Weak to itself
- Can't break alone through Steel types (without coverage)
- Vulnerable to Spikes, Toxic Spikes and Sticky Web
- Vulnerable to the Ground-type (shared on both sun and sand teams) and Rock-type (shared only on sun teams)
Weaknesses: Fairy, Ice, Poison, Steel
Resistances: Bug, Dark, Electric, Fighting, Fire, Grass, Water
Immunities: Dragon
Hits SE: Dragon, Dark, Fighting
Resisted By: Steel
Pros:
- Checks Ash-Greninja, Tomohawk and Colossoil
- Very good offensive type that hits at least neutrally almost every type
- Hits neutrally most of the rain elements
- Neutral to the Stealth Rock
- For the sun teams, it has a very wide coverage, resisted only by the Steel type, which can be complemented to its teammates
- For the sand teams, it can hit the bulky Grass and Water types that stops Excadrill
Cons:
- Weak to the common Ice-type coverage
- Weak to itself
- Can't break alone through Steel types (without coverage)
- Vulnerable to Spikes, Toxic Spikes and Sticky Web
- Vulnerable to the Ground-type (shared on both sun and sand teams) and Rock-type (shared only on sun teams)
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Ground / Fairy
Weaknesses: Steel, Water, Grass, Ice
Resistances: Fighting, Rock, Bug, Dark
Immunities: Electric, Dragon
Hits SE: Poison, Rock, Steel, Fighting, Electric, Fighting, Dragon, Dark
Resisted By: Any combination of Poison/Steel/Fire with Flying
Pros:
- Rock resist that sun teams need
- Fighting resist that sand teams needs.
- Opportunity to hit super effective on Greninja-Ash and Tomohawk that people were worried about.
- Adds an electric immunity for Charizard-Y support.
- Deal with dragons that would otherwise resist the two main types that thrive in sun (fire and grass)
- It also doesn't have to worry about the residual damage taken from sand.
Cons:
- Does not add a water resist to sand teams which people were asking for.
- Potential issues with the match up against Celesteela, Cawmodore, and Skarmory
- Potential issues with Charizard-Y if we are successful with this CAP and make sun more viable.
- Ferrothorn can eat a hit and punish with either super effective grass or steel stab attack
Weaknesses: Steel, Water, Grass, Ice
Resistances: Fighting, Rock, Bug, Dark
Immunities: Electric, Dragon
Hits SE: Poison, Rock, Steel, Fighting, Electric, Fighting, Dragon, Dark
Resisted By: Any combination of Poison/Steel/Fire with Flying
Pros:
- Rock resist that sun teams need
- Fighting resist that sand teams needs.
- Opportunity to hit super effective on Greninja-Ash and Tomohawk that people were worried about.
- Adds an electric immunity for Charizard-Y support.
- Deal with dragons that would otherwise resist the two main types that thrive in sun (fire and grass)
- It also doesn't have to worry about the residual damage taken from sand.
Cons:
- Does not add a water resist to sand teams which people were asking for.
- Potential issues with the match up against Celesteela, Cawmodore, and Skarmory
- Potential issues with Charizard-Y if we are successful with this CAP and make sun more viable.
- Ferrothorn can eat a hit and punish with either super effective grass or steel stab attack
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david0895 said:
Whelp. I was going to to post up an official submission for Dragon/Fairy myself, but it looks like I was a bit to slow. Still, nice to see I'm not completely crazy (and that I didn't spend five hours writing that last post for nothing lol). I won't steal your thunder by talking about it before you finish your post, but I agree that Dragon/Fairy is the way to go. It solves many problems for both Sun and Sand teams, has excellent wall breaking potential, and has plenty of options available later on to solve other issues. Sounds like a winner to me.
EDIT: You finished that post WAY faster than I thought you would.
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WIP for Fairy / Water
Weaknesses: Electric, Grass, Poison
Resistances: Bug, Dark, Fighting, Fire, Water, Ice
Immunities: Dragon
Hits SE: Dragon, Dark, Fighting, Fire, Ground, Rock
Resisted By: Ferrothorn, Kartana, Empoleon, Azumarill, Primarina, Mollux, Plasmanta, Toxapex, Tentacruel, Volcanion, Venusaur, Weepinbell, Amoonguss, Roserade, Vileplume
Pros:
Cons:
Weaknesses: Electric, Grass, Poison
Resistances: Bug, Dark, Fighting, Fire, Water, Ice
Immunities: Dragon
Hits SE: Dragon, Dark, Fighting, Fire, Ground, Rock
Resisted By: Ferrothorn, Kartana, Empoleon, Azumarill, Primarina, Mollux, Plasmanta, Toxapex, Tentacruel, Volcanion, Venusaur, Weepinbell, Amoonguss, Roserade, Vileplume
Pros:
Cons:
Fire/Rock
Weaknesses: Water, Ground, Rock, Fighting
Resistances: Bug, Fairy, Flying, Normal, Ice, Poison, Fire
Immunities: N/A
Hits SE: Grass, Bug, Fire, Flying, Ice, Steel
Resisted By: Ground types with Water/Rock/Dragon dual typing, Argohnaut, Keldeo, Zygarde, Kommo-o, and Poliwrath. With Grass coverage, this expands to hit all Pokémon bar Kommo-o.
Pros:
-STAB Fire moves benefit from the Sun
-Flying resistance
-Benefits from SpDef boost in the Sand
-Possesses STAB against the primary Rain setter, Pelipper
-Minimal types required to give wide coverage
-Able to hit many dangerous walls like Celesteela super effectively
-Able to target Fire types which walk Sun teams, and many Steel types that threaten Sand teams
-Innate immunity to Sandstorm damage
Cons:
-Water weakness makes it a target for Rain teams and Ash-Greninja
-No SE STAB options against Tomohawk or Landorus-Therian
-Ground Weakness is shared by other Sun and Sand teams
Weaknesses: Water, Ground, Rock, Fighting
Resistances: Bug, Fairy, Flying, Normal, Ice, Poison, Fire
Immunities: N/A
Hits SE: Grass, Bug, Fire, Flying, Ice, Steel
Specifically, Hits SE: Syclant, Pyroak, Kitsunoh, Necturna, Mollux, Aurumoth, Malaconda, Cawmadore, Volkraken, Blacephalon, Celesteela, all Charizards, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Kartana, Kyurem-B, Magearna, Mawile, Pelipper, Pinsir, Scizor, Skarmory, Tangrowth, Volcarona
Pros:
-STAB Fire moves benefit from the Sun
-Flying resistance
-Benefits from SpDef boost in the Sand
-Possesses STAB against the primary Rain setter, Pelipper
-Minimal types required to give wide coverage
-Able to hit many dangerous walls like Celesteela super effectively
-Able to target Fire types which walk Sun teams, and many Steel types that threaten Sand teams
-Innate immunity to Sandstorm damage
Cons:
-Water weakness makes it a target for Rain teams and Ash-Greninja
-No SE STAB options against Tomohawk or Landorus-Therian
-Ground Weakness is shared by other Sun and Sand teams
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Grass / Fairy
Weaknesses: Fire, Flying, Ice, Poison, Steel
Resistances: Dark, Electric, Fighting, Grass, Ground, Water
Immunities: Dragon
Relevant super effective hits: Tomohawk, Ash-Greninja, Colossoil, Zygarde, Arghonaut, Hawlucha, Mega Latios, Keldeo, Mega Swampert, Tyranitar
Relevant resistors with only STAB coverage: Heatran, Pyroak, Skarmory, Celesteela, Magearna, Kartana, Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn
Preliminary comments:
- Don't let the long list of relevant resistors steer you away - this is factoring in STAB coverage alone (notice the potential coverage moves that could hit them). Fairy-type attacks also covers a lot of the metagame neutrally by itself.
Pros:
- Provides Sun and Sand types a great counter to Zygarde because it resists Ground and Dragon and also to Greninja because it resists Water and Dark. Both Zygarde and Greninja-Ash are big threats to Sun and Sand based teams, particularly Sand.
- Also provides a good defense against non-Facade Colossoil, non-Flyinium Z Landorus-T
- Good Grass-types that fit on Sun and Sand teams (especially Tangrowth, Tapu Bulu, Amoonguss on Sand-based teams) lack ways to break through Tomohawk. Fairy-type allows for that.
- Because it can break Tomohawk, it also means it's not complete set-up bait for Hawlucha.
- Both STAB attacks hit Arghonaut, which is a rising threat that can also wall Sand based teams.
- 4x weakness to Poison is not terribly common
- No weakness to Stealth Rock
- Good power behind STAB moves
Novelties (Pros that are nice but aren't completely vital):
- STAB Solar Beam and Solar Blade
- Good typing against Rain-based teams, which is actually useful for Sand-based teams
Cons:
- Unfortunate weakness to Flying-type attacks, meaning it cannot safely come in directly onto Tomohawk 100% of the time
- Cannot reliably break Heatran for Sun-teams by STAB coverage alone
- Has no chance to tank Fire-type moves, but even typings 2x resistant to Fire-type attacks aren't reliably tanking them (refer to DLC's post on the matter)
- Vulnerable to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Sticky Web
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Dragon / Flying
Weaknesses: Dragon, Fairy, Ice, Rock
Resistances: Bug, Fighting, Fire, Grass, Water
Immunities: Ground
Relevant super effective hits: Tomohawk, Pajantom, Tapu Bulu, Aurumoth, Syclant, Zygarde, Latios, Hawlucha, Volcarona, Kyurem-B, Arghonaut
Relevant resistors with only STAB coverage: Heatran, Skarmory, Celesteela, Magearna, Mega Scizor, Tapu Koko
Preliminary comments:
If you're worried about Hurricane, don't be. Just because Hurricane gets its accuracy in Rain and nerfed in the Sun, it doesn't mean Hurricane is off the table. In fact, Hurricane is best on Sand teams to address Tomohawk; whereas Sun teams have less of a need for Flying-type coverage to begin with. Regarding its fit on Rain teams, few Flying-types are ever going to have better utility on a Rain team than Prankster Rain Dance + Healing Wish Tomohawk. tl;dr, don't let STAB options damage your opinion of this typing.
Pros:
- Complete immunity to Ground-type attacks, which is highly useful for both Sun and Sand based teams
- Provides a partial defense to Ash-Greninja because it resists Water-type STAB moves, which is important because it resists Water Shuriken
- Heatran has harder time chipping it down with an immunity to Earth Power and resistance to Magma Storm
- Can break Tomohawk, Tangrowth, Pyroak, and Arghonaut for Sand teams, which is highly useful for Excadrill
- Can break open Dragon-types that commonly resist Sun teams attacks like Latios and Zygarde
- Ignores Spikes and Sticky Web, a useful immunity for both type archetypes
- High powered STAB moves
Novelties (Pros that are nice but aren't completely vital):
- Resists Fire-type attacks in a pinch for Sun based teams
Cons:
- Unfortunate 4x weakness to Ice-type attacks, though Syclant is the only relevant Ice-type and not everything in CAP runs HP Ice. Mostly HP Ground.
- Cannot reliably break Heatran for Sun-teams by STAB coverage alone
- Stealth Rock Weakness
- Doesn't resist Zygarde's Thousand Waves
- Annoyingly misses Tapu Koko by STAB coverage
Weaknesses: Fire, Flying, Ice, Poison, Steel
Resistances: Dark, Electric, Fighting, Grass, Ground, Water
Immunities: Dragon
Relevant super effective hits: Tomohawk, Ash-Greninja, Colossoil, Zygarde, Arghonaut, Hawlucha, Mega Latios, Keldeo, Mega Swampert, Tyranitar
Relevant resistors with only STAB coverage: Heatran, Pyroak, Skarmory, Celesteela, Magearna, Kartana, Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn
Preliminary comments:
- Don't let the long list of relevant resistors steer you away - this is factoring in STAB coverage alone (notice the potential coverage moves that could hit them). Fairy-type attacks also covers a lot of the metagame neutrally by itself.
Pros:
- Provides Sun and Sand types a great counter to Zygarde because it resists Ground and Dragon and also to Greninja because it resists Water and Dark. Both Zygarde and Greninja-Ash are big threats to Sun and Sand based teams, particularly Sand.
- Also provides a good defense against non-Facade Colossoil, non-Flyinium Z Landorus-T
- Good Grass-types that fit on Sun and Sand teams (especially Tangrowth, Tapu Bulu, Amoonguss on Sand-based teams) lack ways to break through Tomohawk. Fairy-type allows for that.
- Because it can break Tomohawk, it also means it's not complete set-up bait for Hawlucha.
- Both STAB attacks hit Arghonaut, which is a rising threat that can also wall Sand based teams.
- 4x weakness to Poison is not terribly common
- No weakness to Stealth Rock
- Good power behind STAB moves
Novelties (Pros that are nice but aren't completely vital):
- STAB Solar Beam and Solar Blade
- Good typing against Rain-based teams, which is actually useful for Sand-based teams
Cons:
- Unfortunate weakness to Flying-type attacks, meaning it cannot safely come in directly onto Tomohawk 100% of the time
- Cannot reliably break Heatran for Sun-teams by STAB coverage alone
- Has no chance to tank Fire-type moves, but even typings 2x resistant to Fire-type attacks aren't reliably tanking them (refer to DLC's post on the matter)
- Vulnerable to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Sticky Web
-----------------------------
Dragon / Flying
Weaknesses: Dragon, Fairy, Ice, Rock
Resistances: Bug, Fighting, Fire, Grass, Water
Immunities: Ground
Relevant super effective hits: Tomohawk, Pajantom, Tapu Bulu, Aurumoth, Syclant, Zygarde, Latios, Hawlucha, Volcarona, Kyurem-B, Arghonaut
Relevant resistors with only STAB coverage: Heatran, Skarmory, Celesteela, Magearna, Mega Scizor, Tapu Koko
Preliminary comments:
If you're worried about Hurricane, don't be. Just because Hurricane gets its accuracy in Rain and nerfed in the Sun, it doesn't mean Hurricane is off the table. In fact, Hurricane is best on Sand teams to address Tomohawk; whereas Sun teams have less of a need for Flying-type coverage to begin with. Regarding its fit on Rain teams, few Flying-types are ever going to have better utility on a Rain team than Prankster Rain Dance + Healing Wish Tomohawk. tl;dr, don't let STAB options damage your opinion of this typing.
Pros:
- Complete immunity to Ground-type attacks, which is highly useful for both Sun and Sand based teams
- Provides a partial defense to Ash-Greninja because it resists Water-type STAB moves, which is important because it resists Water Shuriken
- Heatran has harder time chipping it down with an immunity to Earth Power and resistance to Magma Storm
- Can break Tomohawk, Tangrowth, Pyroak, and Arghonaut for Sand teams, which is highly useful for Excadrill
- Can break open Dragon-types that commonly resist Sun teams attacks like Latios and Zygarde
- Ignores Spikes and Sticky Web, a useful immunity for both type archetypes
- High powered STAB moves
Novelties (Pros that are nice but aren't completely vital):
- Resists Fire-type attacks in a pinch for Sun based teams
Cons:
- Unfortunate 4x weakness to Ice-type attacks, though Syclant is the only relevant Ice-type and not everything in CAP runs HP Ice. Mostly HP Ground.
- Cannot reliably break Heatran for Sun-teams by STAB coverage alone
- Stealth Rock Weakness
- Doesn't resist Zygarde's Thousand Waves
- Annoyingly misses Tapu Koko by STAB coverage
WIP for Grass/Electric
Weakness: Fire, Ice, Bug, Poison
Resistances: Steel, Water, Grass, Electric
Immunities: N/A
Hits SE: Water, Flying, Ground, Rock
Relevant Targets: Greninja, Pelipper, Swampert, Tomohawk, Mono Ground Types, Some Flying Types
Resisted By: Grass Types, Dragon Types, Magnezone, Rotom-Heat, Plasmanta, Galvantula. All of them bar are neutral with fire coverage, and you could have ground coverage I guess.
Pros:
Decimates the best rain setter and abuser (Pelipper to Electric, Swampert to grass)
Can also threaten Tomohawk, which is heck to sun and sand teams
Resists water boosted attacks, thunder, and neutral to flying and ground attacks while threatening the rain team.
Doesn't stack weakness with sand teams, and doesn't stack with fire types
Grass offers healing moves by Synthesis, for longevity in wallbreaking
Useful STAB with Horn Leech, Leaf Blade, Wood Hammer, Fusion Bolt(?), Solar Beam, Giga Drain, Thunderbolt, Thunder
Cons:
Doesn't really help either sun or sand (this is more to decentralize rain team, which is against the point in some way)
STABs are resisted by a single type (grass and dragon, the latter being viable to counter sun teams)
Weak to Fire and Ice, pretty big threats
Weakness: Fire, Ice, Bug, Poison
Resistances: Steel, Water, Grass, Electric
Immunities: N/A
Hits SE: Water, Flying, Ground, Rock
Relevant Targets: Greninja, Pelipper, Swampert, Tomohawk, Mono Ground Types, Some Flying Types
Resisted By: Grass Types, Dragon Types, Magnezone, Rotom-Heat, Plasmanta, Galvantula. All of them bar are neutral with fire coverage, and you could have ground coverage I guess.
Pros:
Decimates the best rain setter and abuser (Pelipper to Electric, Swampert to grass)
Can also threaten Tomohawk, which is heck to sun and sand teams
Resists water boosted attacks, thunder, and neutral to flying and ground attacks while threatening the rain team.
Doesn't stack weakness with sand teams, and doesn't stack with fire types
Grass offers healing moves by Synthesis, for longevity in wallbreaking
Useful STAB with Horn Leech, Leaf Blade, Wood Hammer, Fusion Bolt(?), Solar Beam, Giga Drain, Thunderbolt, Thunder
Cons:
Doesn't really help either sun or sand (this is more to decentralize rain team, which is against the point in some way)
STABs are resisted by a single type (grass and dragon, the latter being viable to counter sun teams)
Weak to Fire and Ice, pretty big threats
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Hello,
I'm just going to be open right out of the game, I am very new to CAP, but the idea of a dual weather abuser interests me greatly, so I figured I may as well put out an idea that I haven't seen yet. Even though there hasn't been a mega since Crucibelle, perhaps making a mon which can serve as a abuser for one form of weather when pre-mega'd, and swap to another type once mega'd. Alternately, we could have a mon that changes forms depending on the weather to abuse it (think a better version of Castform).
This could potentially put a solution to the idea of contradictory types for the mon, and would allow people to focus on the typing that best fits each specific weather.
As I mentioned, I am new to CAP, but I want to help in anyway I can, and figure I should put my idea out there. Let me know any problems you see, or if I have broken some unwritten rule of CAPmons,
Regards,
Hobiew.
I'm just going to be open right out of the game, I am very new to CAP, but the idea of a dual weather abuser interests me greatly, so I figured I may as well put out an idea that I haven't seen yet. Even though there hasn't been a mega since Crucibelle, perhaps making a mon which can serve as a abuser for one form of weather when pre-mega'd, and swap to another type once mega'd. Alternately, we could have a mon that changes forms depending on the weather to abuse it (think a better version of Castform).
This could potentially put a solution to the idea of contradictory types for the mon, and would allow people to focus on the typing that best fits each specific weather.
As I mentioned, I am new to CAP, but I want to help in anyway I can, and figure I should put my idea out there. Let me know any problems you see, or if I have broken some unwritten rule of CAPmons,
Regards,
Hobiew.
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Ground/Dragon
Weaknesses: Ice, Dragon, Fairy
Resistances: Fire, Poison, Rock
Immunities: Electric
Relevant super effective hits: Heatran, Latios, Zygarde, Excadrill, Tapu Koko, Pajantom, Magearna, Toxapex, Crucibelle and its Mega, Volkraken, Blacephalon, Cyclohm, Fidgit, Tyranitar, Naviathan, Magnezone, Mega Diancie
Relevant resists: Skarmory, Celesteela, Cawmodore, Tapu Bulu
Pros:
-Near unresisted STAB coverage.
-Everything relevant that walls it is roasted by Sun-boosted Fire moves (who uses Togekiss anyway?)
-Can break through some annoying walls like Pex, which is especially appreciated on Sun teams.
-Resists Fire to better check Heatran for sun teams.
-Is naturally immune to sand damage.
-Blocking Volt Switch can help in preventing the opponent from getting momentum, which is important when we only have limited weather turns.
-Stealth Rock resistance.
-Is also good at combatting Sand teams, which will help the Sun teams it's on as if the project succeeds both weathers will be more common.
-Can use its Ground STAB to help Excadrill weaken each other's checks, while not even sharing any weaknesses with Exca.
Cons:
-Hits neither of the two S-ranks super effectively.
-The walls it breaks are mostly walls Sand has few trouble with, which can limit its overall effectiveness on that archetype. It also draws in Tapu Bulu, which Sand tends to lack good switch-ins to.
-Can be risky to use, as there are types immune to each of its STABs. This is especially annoying since Flying and Fairy Pokémon are very common.
-The things that wall it are everywhere on the meta, and generally mons Sand doesn't like to face.
-Doesn't resist Water, Ground or Fighting. Especially Water can be annoying on Sand teams as it makes it a very shaky AshGren answer.
-General lack of resistances can make it tricky to switch in, even with the SR resistance.
-Exploitable 4x Ice weakness.
-Powerful Dragon moves have very nasty drawbacks, both on the physical and special side.
-Practically necessiates a weather-based ability to stand out from Garchomp. This may, depending on the stats and abilities, also leave CAP24 struggling to find a niche outside of weather teams.
-Stacks Fairy weakness with TTar and Malaconda, and the Ice weakness stacks with Mala's too.
Weaknesses: Ice, Dragon, Fairy
Resistances: Fire, Poison, Rock
Immunities: Electric
Relevant super effective hits: Heatran, Latios, Zygarde, Excadrill, Tapu Koko, Pajantom, Magearna, Toxapex, Crucibelle and its Mega, Volkraken, Blacephalon, Cyclohm, Fidgit, Tyranitar, Naviathan, Magnezone, Mega Diancie
Relevant resists: Skarmory, Celesteela, Cawmodore, Tapu Bulu
Pros:
-Near unresisted STAB coverage.
-Everything relevant that walls it is roasted by Sun-boosted Fire moves (who uses Togekiss anyway?)
-Can break through some annoying walls like Pex, which is especially appreciated on Sun teams.
-Resists Fire to better check Heatran for sun teams.
-Is naturally immune to sand damage.
-Blocking Volt Switch can help in preventing the opponent from getting momentum, which is important when we only have limited weather turns.
-Stealth Rock resistance.
-Is also good at combatting Sand teams, which will help the Sun teams it's on as if the project succeeds both weathers will be more common.
-Can use its Ground STAB to help Excadrill weaken each other's checks, while not even sharing any weaknesses with Exca.
Cons:
-Hits neither of the two S-ranks super effectively.
-The walls it breaks are mostly walls Sand has few trouble with, which can limit its overall effectiveness on that archetype. It also draws in Tapu Bulu, which Sand tends to lack good switch-ins to.
-Can be risky to use, as there are types immune to each of its STABs. This is especially annoying since Flying and Fairy Pokémon are very common.
-The things that wall it are everywhere on the meta, and generally mons Sand doesn't like to face.
-Doesn't resist Water, Ground or Fighting. Especially Water can be annoying on Sand teams as it makes it a very shaky AshGren answer.
-General lack of resistances can make it tricky to switch in, even with the SR resistance.
-Exploitable 4x Ice weakness.
-Powerful Dragon moves have very nasty drawbacks, both on the physical and special side.
-Practically necessiates a weather-based ability to stand out from Garchomp. This may, depending on the stats and abilities, also leave CAP24 struggling to find a niche outside of weather teams.
-Stacks Fairy weakness with TTar and Malaconda, and the Ice weakness stacks with Mala's too.
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