CAP 24 CAP 24 - Part 6 - Counters Discussion

[Quanyails]

Hey, all! It's been a few CAPs since the last Counters Discussion. Usually this discussion is optional and takes place after stats, but circumstances have led to it being expedited for this process. Pay close attention to our Topic Leader, Drapionswing when posting in this thread!

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Before we move onto stats, we must first discuss counters and checks for CAP 24 in a more meaningful way. We have a list of Pokemon that we wanted to check CAP 24 in threats discussion, and we will list them below for reference purposes. Of these, we will now decide which will handle CAP 24 through its naturally learned stats, and which won't. We want a certain few Pokemon to beat CAP 24 soundly, but we also don't want every Pokemon to beat CAP 24 reliably, as that would result in the opposite problem of it being too easy to beat. Keep all of this in mind for this discussion, which will be open for 48 hours. It's entirely possible if discussion demands it that we will leave this open for longer.

Look here at Drapionswing's post here from our Threats Discussion. It will play a crucial role in this discussion.

Pokemon we want to beat:

Sun:
Heatran, Blacephalon, Crawdaunt, Mega Latios, Pajantom, Zygarde,

Sand:
Heatran, Landorus-T, Tapu Bulu, Tomohawk


Pokemon we want to pressure/threaten:
Mega Mawille, Mega Charizard X, Cawmodore, Ash Greninja, Kartana, Marowak-Alola, Celesteela

Pokemon we want to check Cap24:
Fire-Types: Mega Charizard Y, Volcarona, Marowak-Alola, Pyroak(Sand)
Steel Types: Mega Scizor, Excadrill, Magearna
Poison Types: Plasmanta, Fidgit, Mollux, Crucibelle, Mega Crucibelle
Priority Users: Kitsunoh, Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Syclant, Cawmodore
Other: Mega Alakazam
Special Wall: Chansey

Pokemon we want to counter Cap24:
Mega Venusaur
Pyroak(Sun)
Toxapex

What other Pokemon out there should we force to handle CAP 24? Are there any, or is this enough? I have more questions to ask here, and they are listed below.

• Given the combination of typing, ability, and stat pool now decided, which previously defined threats are considered hard counters to the project?
• Which Pokemon are regarded as basic counters?
• Which Pokemon are checks?
• Are the Pokemon that are currently able to counter the project the Pokemon we want/need to counter the project?
• If not, what must be done to handle these Pokemon? Is it unavoidable?
• What Pokemon have arisen in discussions that were not brought up before? As in, are there Pokemon that counter/check this concept on concepts that are not focused around its typing? Where should they be placed in the discussion?
• Which Pokemon have been taken out of the counters discussion due to the stat pool and ability?
• Which Pokemon have moved from threats purely by typing to checks? To neutral match-ups?
• Which Pokemon are now countered by the project fully? Which are checked by the project? Which have become neutral match-ups against the project?
• With this set list of counters and checks, does this fulfill the concept's goal?

The criteria for a hard counter are as follows, and hard counters must satisfy at least a few of these, but potentially as many as possible. We should focus on making CAP 24's counters handle it as reliably as possible considering any or the most powerful sets.

• Can switch into this CAP's strongest reliable STAB attacks at least three times from full health.
• Can switch into this CAP's strongest possible coverage move at least twice from full health.
• Can stall this CAP indefinitely using its recovery options either forcing the CAP out or healing enough that the stalling Pokemon can alternate between recovery and attacking.
• Can OHKO or 2HKO the CAP with one of the moves on that Pokemon's relevant official Smogon moveset.
• Can cripple this CAP with a permanent status move without risking a OHKO.
• Can set up, use hazards, weather, or otherwise execute an opponent's strategy without risking a 2HKO.

Attacking Moves that would turn Pokemon on the CAP's list of Hard Counters into Checks under ordinary circumstances will not be allowed. Non-Attacking Moves such as stat boosters or Taunt that would turn Pokemon on the CAP's list of Hard Counters into Checks will not be allowed.

Here is a link to our threats discussion for reference.

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CAP 24 so far

Topic Leader: Drapionswing

Topic Leadership Team:
SHSP: Typing Leader
Drew: Ability Leader
reachzero: Stats Leader
mxmts: Movepool Leader

Concept

• Name - Snow or Shine (or Sand)
• Description - A Pokemon that abuses 2 weather conditions for different effects
• Justification - Currently in CAP, there is only one form of weather that is really worth using: rain, and only one really type of weather abuser: offensive sweeper. This concept means to address both of these issues by creating a new niche for two weather conditions. This concept would fill the archetype of a weather abuser, but I feel it also fits into the Actualization category as it would also aim to create a new role for a weather abuser for 1 or more different weather conditions.
• Questions To Be Answered
  • Why are hail, sun, and sand underrepresented in the current metagame?
  • What makes rain the best weather condition currently?
  • How can this CAP encourage the use of other weather conditions? What do hail, sun, and/or sand need? Sweepers? Setters? Walls?
  • What weather effects are underutilized? How can we successfully use these effects?
  • How can one Pokemon utilize different weather conditions for different effects and sets?
  • Should this Pokemon be able to function outside of weather-based teams? If so, what niche would it need to fulfill? If it sets it's own weather, is it enough to abuse the weather condition on its own?
• Explanation - For those who don't fully see how a not-sweeper weather abuser could work, take Lileep in LC for example. Lileep, mainly back in BW and XY as sand is quite uncommon in SM, is on most sand teams, as it can abuse its Rock-typing to boost Special Defense, the passive damage from sand, and its access to Recover and Toxic to become a weather abusing wall. Another possible interaction would be running Ferrothorn on rain teams to semi-nullify its Fire weakness. Not only typings are underexplored though! There are many moves, items, and of course abilities that can be used to abuse different weather conditions in a way that no Pokemon really does currently.

Typing: Grass/Fairy

Pokemon we want to beat:

Sun:
Heatran, Blacephalon, Crawdaunt, Mega Latios, Pajantom, Zygarde,

Sand:
Heatran, Landorus-T, Tapu Bulu, Tomohawk


Pokemon we want to pressure/threaten:
Mega Mawille, Mega Charizard X, Cawmodore, Ash Greninja, Kartana, Marowak-Alola, Celesteela

Pokemon we want to check Cap24:
Fire-Types: Mega Charizard Y, Volcarona, Marowak-Alola, Pyroak(Sand)
Steel Types: Mega Scizor, Excadrill, Magearna
Poison Types: Plasmanta, Fidgit, Mollux, Crucibelle, Mega Crucibelle
Priority Users: Kitsunoh, Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Syclant, Cawmodore
Other: Mega Alakazam
Special Wall: Chansey

Pokemon we want to counter Cap24:
Mega Venusaur
Pyroak(Sun)
Toxapex

Abilities: Drought/Trace

 

[Drapionswing]

With the ability stage really being a pivotal point in discussion during this process, I feel incredibly obligated to reevaluate our threatlist for our abilities Drought and Trace. That being said I don't resent the original list however, I feel mentality in the ICC has changed too much for us to continue with that threatlist. I'm not expecting huge changes, I just want this list to be accurate and true to our CAP.

Similarly to the threat discussion I want to discourage vague posts aimed at typing as it lacks substance and direction for the discussion, especially now that we're even further in the process.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

I'm not going to be sad to see Toxapex removed as a Counter. Seems restrictive elsewhere to account for it, Trace benefits us to switch in and out, and tbh, anything thay devalues boring Stall playstyles is a step in the correct direction.

To reiterate, Stall might well be a valid playstyle and require skill and patience I don't have, but it's ultra boring to play against/watch that I'd rather do more with my time. Sorry, stall players.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I think it's a good idea we're taking another look at the threat list. When we formed our original threat list, we had an idea of where we wanted to take this project: The Sun set would become a Speed control Pokemon to pair with a Drought setter and a wallbreaker, while the Sand Pokemon would be a wallbreaker that can help Tyranitar and Excadrill do their thing. But after Abilities, we've, uh, definitely not gone in that direction. Drought is not an ability conducive to Speed Control at all; in fact, it's more conducive to wallbreaking in the vein of Mega Charizard Y or even supportive setting in the vein of Malaconda. Meanwhile, our "Sand" Ability is Trace; not exactly an Ability I think of for a wallbreaker. That doesn't mean the threat list was bad or that we're in danger of failing the concept, but it does suggest the threat list is a bit obsolete.

The elephant in the room is Drought. Ultimately, Drought will power up our coverage and essentially give us a third STAB option - at least for Hidden Power Fire. Furthermore, Drought could be combined with Growth to make an utterly ferocious wallbreaker. While it would be wrong to assume CAP24 is going to be given Growth, it's not unreasonable to believe a Drought-setting Sun abuser might get the best Sun abusing move in the game. And it's almost a lock that CAP24 will get least one of Growth and decent Fire coverage. If not, we really aren't abusing the Sun in the way the Concept mandates. For that reason, I think we should revamp the Sun threat list to make CAP24 easier to revenge kill and harder to wall.

The Sun counters are all walls/tanks. Toxapex, Pyroak, and Mega Venusaur are not Pokemon meant to counter an offensive weather setter, especially if CAP24 is able to boost. We're going to have to gimp ourselves mightily to take full advantage of the Sun and still be countered by Toxapex and Pyroak. Sure, they should probably be able to beat CAP24 one-on-one, but the idea that Pyroak - a Physical wall - should be able to counter CAP24 in the Sun is asinine. I think it's prudent not to let CAP24 be walled too easily. So far, it's an offensively-built Pokemon with a power-boosting Ability and no Speed control. That might change in the future, but to list Pyroak as a counter right now is overly restrictive.

To make up for the removal of walls as Sun CAP24's counters, I think we should add more offensive Pokemon as checks. Blacephalon is listed as a Pokemon we should beat, even though it hits us super-effectively and we can't even hit it neutrally - with or without Fire coverage. Blacephalon isn't a Pokemon that wants to switch into CAP24 (or anything, really), but it is a Pokemon that should be checking us. While I don't like Hawlucha checking CAP24, I fail to see how it isn't going to end up doing so, either. Same with Pokemon like Choice Scarf Kartana, maybe even any Kartana with Smart Strike. There are others as well. The bottom line is that I believe Sun CAP24 should be checked by fast Pokemon that can hit it super-effectively, but it should not be walled as easily as it is right now.

 

[david0895]

I would like to review Pyroak as a counter: Fire coverage (if allowed) might be to much for it, forcing us to lower its offensive. Moving it as a check, us probably easier.

Cawmodore as a check probably is diffuicult job if it has to setup, so I think that we should remove it from the list.

 

[SunshineFuture]

The main thing I am sold on is making Chansey a hard counter. Let's go over each of the points in the OP and see how Chansey stacks up, shall we? NOTE: This assumes 125 spatk.

Can switch into this CAP's strongest reliable STAB attacks at least three times from full health.
252 SpA Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 96-114 (13.6 - 16.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock

Can switch into this CAP's strongest possible coverage move at least twice from full health.
252 SpA Whimsicott Fire Blast vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 74-88 (10.5 - 12.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Stealth Rock

Can stall this CAP indefinitely using its recovery options either forcing the CAP out or healing enough that the stalling Pokemon can alternate between recovery and attacking. + Can cripple this CAP with a permanent status move without risking a OHKO.
Chansey has Toxic and Soft Boiled. Need I say more?

Can set up, use hazards, weather, or otherwise execute an opponent's strategy without risking a 2HKO.
I'm not certain if stall counts, but if it does, Chansey does so in spades.

The only thing on the list from the OP Chansey doesn't accomplish is 2HKOing us, but it's not meant to 2HKO anything, so it doesn't matter. Also, Taunt is by no means useful to us in any way, as we will already likely be hard to wall with the amount of coverage we will likely recieve. Overall, Chansey is basically the hardest counter to us that we could ever ask for.
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The other thing is Toxapex should be a check. For certain threats, especially Celesteela, boosting is our only option if we do not pick Fire coverage (which is entirely possible, by the way. We can beat Steela with Focus Blast fine) to get through. However, Grassium breaks Toxapex with reasonable Special Attack.

+1 252 SpA Whimsicott Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 120-142 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+1 252 SpA Whimsicott Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 234-276 (77.2 - 91%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

If we do get a Fire-type move, it would easily spark discussion over if we should get Earth Power. However....

252 SpA Whimsicott Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 108-128 (35.6 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Whimsicott Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 208-246 (68.6 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

While Earth Power isn't the best thing in the world at this very moment imo, I think making Toxapex only a check will give us more flexibility down the road for if we wish to go down that path.
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Excadrill should be something we want to threaten. The reason I say this is simple- Speed. Trace gives us Sand Rush. Furthermore, if we want to have a decent speed control option for sun (which fwiw I'm not certain of anymore), we need around 95 speed, which outpaces Excadrill. I do not see us running something like Stun Spore, as it could easily give us 4MSS, which I think is a bad thing in this case for a weather Pokemon like this.

 

[snake]

I think Toxapex should be a soft check or hard check. As we have defined Drought CAP24 as a wallbreaker for Sun, it should be a no-brainer that Fire-type breakers would like Toxapex to be broken through. Now, given enough Special Attack, Z-Solarbeam can hit Toxapex for quite a bit of damage, and if Growth's added into the mix, Toxapex has a hard time switching in. However, in a 1v1 situation, Toxapex should be able to Haze away Growth boosts, tank unboosted Solar Beams and Recover them off, and stall out Drought turns to where CAP24 has to switch out. But to deny CAP24 to bust past Toxapex at all is severely limiting.

Assuming 125 SpA:

252 SpA Tapu Bulu Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 108-127 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- 87.6% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 142-168 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Tapu Bulu Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 169-201 (55.7 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

With Growth:
+2 252 SpA Tapu Bulu Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 216-255 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 281-331 (92.7 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Tapu Bulu Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 339-399 (111.8 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Black Sludge recovery

Basically, Toxapex can manage CAP24 if it's able to stall out Sun turns and have the upper hand on CAP24, but if it tries to switch in, especially with hazards, it can get overwhelmed. I think that's a fine relationship for Drought CAP24 to have with Toxapex.

 

[Pipotchi]

Heres my thoughts on mons that could be on a check/counter list.


Fire Types: Fire types can often switch in and tank the vast majority of its coverage outside of Weather Ball in Sand- Fire, Fairy, and Grass-types moves. Mega Charizard-Y and Volcarona are counters with reliable recovery, in particular Mega Charizard-Y which changes weather to Sun and therefore removes the threat of a Rock-type Weather Ball in Sand. Mollux, Marowak-Alola and Victini are also decent checks to both sets, especially Victini which has less issue with HP Ground. Fire-types have the additional threat of using CAP24's weather against it in Drought.

Poison Types: Mollux, Mega Crucibelle, and Plasmanta can all stomach a hit not called HP-Ground and ohko with a STAB poison move. Toxapex and Mega Venusaur can potentially check Sand sets, but are blown away by Growth and Mega Venusaur can easily be worn down over the match by Sandstorm.

Specially Defensive Pokemon: Certain AV Pokemon are especially decent answers to the Sand set- AV Magearna must watch for Firium-Z but can otherwise switch in and threaten a Flash Cannon or Iron Head. Muk-Alola is rarely seen but takes any hit with ease and threatens with an ohko. AV Crucibelle is probably not super common but is a respectable answer.

Chansey: Chansey handles almost anything CAP24 can throw out outside of Growth-boosted All-Out-Pummelling and beat it down with Seismic Toss, and afflict it with either paralysis or poison.

Powerful priority: Mega Scizor, Mamoswine, Mega Pinsir, Syclant, Cawmodore, Kitsunoh and Mega Medicham all can threaten with super-effective priority that could take down CAP after it takes a hit setting up. (Likely that a few of these mons will be faster also)

Faster Offensive Threats: Outside of the ones listed, CAP24 will likely have a middling speed that allows it to be revenge killed by a host of medium speed Pokemon- although if it is faster, mons like Excadrill in Sand or Hawlucha after Unburden will easily revenge kill any sort of set. Poison is a common coverage type that CAP24 must watch out for, and Drought sets must be particularly afraid of boosted HP Fire coverage that can be used against it.


very hard pokemon to wall, but checked by offensive pokemon in general which can almost all carry the coverage needed to smack this mon hard no matter the stats we give it (poison/hp fire).
i think this mon should rely on grass, fire, fairy, fighting as its main offensive types and also have the potential to run a weaker ground move like hp ground. this gives it the above mons as checks, which is suitable for the Sun set because Heatran checks or counters common Fire and Poison and Steel types that might be able to deal with CAP. For Sand, Tyranitar is supportive to CAP for being able to threaten a large number of Fire and Poison types that will be switching into those 4 offensive types that it mainly runs.
Most of the mons that threaten both members of these Sun and Sand cores are taking a risk by switching into CAP since they'll likely be ohkod by the right move which makes CAP a little more scary to handle.

 

[TKGriffiths]

Any reason why Volkraken couldn't check CAP? If Excadrill becomes more common due to this project then Volkraken might lean towards Timid to outspeed it outside sand. Meaning it would likely outspeed CAP too even without a scarf. Even if it's slower, CAP likely won't be able to threaten it with an OHKO.

 

[Frostbiyt]

Some calcs for CAP 100/100/100 Defenses 125SpA vs Volkraken:
Sun
252 SpA Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD CAP in Sun: 558-656 (163.1 - 191.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA CAP Solar Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volkraken: 210-247 (61.4 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sand
252 SpA Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD CAP: 372-438 (108.7 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA CAP Weather Ball (100 BP Rock) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volkraken in Sand: 234-276 (68.4 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even with a neutral nature and no item, Volkraken will very likely OHKO CAP with Fire Blast. So CAP would lose a 1v1 regardless of speed. Both scarf and specs sets should be wary switching in to CAP, but scarf Volkraken will probably be able to outspeed and take out CAP. If specs Volkraken switches into a neutral or resisted move, it would likely be able to take out CAP as well. Seems like a pretty solid check to me.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

I agree with Toxapex being moved to check, as it would be hard for something like that to counter a Mon packing a viable Z-Solar Beam, which may or may not also be Growth-boosted. Even still, it can haze away and Growths it may have under its belt (if it has growth), can easily stall out Sun turns with its various recovery options, eats our reliable Fairy STAB like its an afternoon snack, and can fish for scald burns, poison us, can setup Toxic Spikes, and generally sap every ounce of momentum we may have had. I think it fairly safe to put it under a hard check.

The Pex vs. 125 SpA CAP

252+ SpA Whimsicott Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 186-220 (61.3 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Whimsicott Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 118-139 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 46-55 (15.1 - 18.1%) -- possible 8HKO after Black Sludge recovery


Mega Venusaur is likely to stay as a counter even if we give it Aeroblast or Dragon Ascent, so there's no debate there.
EDIT: It does have a weaker Synthesis in Sand and chip damage, so that is something small to consider.

252+ SpA Whimsicott Aeroblast vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Venusaur-Mega: 158-188 (43.5 - 51.7%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO lol

Chansey I think also deserves to be a counter just because of its incredible girth. I think its fairly obvious that this mon is 90% likely to end up specially biased, which automatically makes it prime blob bait. Even if it was physical (which makes no sense in terms of our threat list anyways) I haven't really seen any arguments to give it any tools to take down Chansey. So, it would be able to eat our attacks like a pack of wolves at a Vegas buffet and can heal off the damage or just Seismic Toss us to death.

Pyroak...yeah. Its still a hard check to some extent because of using CAP24's own Sun for Synthesis, but it can still be overthrown by a strong enough Fire type coverage move, especially if it has a Z-move applied to it. And Growth is another variable to add to it as well.

252+ SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pyroak in Sun: 221-261 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pyroak in Sun: 246-290 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

As for new additions, Blacephalon should absolutely be added to checks. The argument for being able to beat was some form of speed control, most likely Chlorophyll. We do not have it, and we have in fact made it stronger than before with Drought. While it certainly can't switch into anything named Hidden Power Ground, if its gets a chance to get in, then it pretty much destroys us with Flamethrower or Fire Blast or any Fire move.

Calced with 100/100/100 defenses for reference

252+ SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Blacephalon: 221-260 (89.4 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Whimsicott in Sun: 714-840 (209.3 - 246.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Blacephalon Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Whimsicott in Sun: 390-462 (114.3 - 135.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

We should also totally have Scarf Victini as a check

 

[Mx]

Chansey: I think this is obviously our most natural counter, and I personally believe that it should stay that way. However we should consider the fact that due to its passive nature, keeping it as a hard counter would mean to discard any stall-breaking moves, such as Taunt or Leech Seed. Not only that, but boosting moves could also be problematic, as with only 100 SpA, after a Sun-boosted Growth, LO Focus Blast is a 2HKO (+2 252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Focus Blast vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 359-424 (51.1 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), and at +4, Z-Focus Blast has a good chace of outright OHKO the blob (+4 252 SpA Starmie All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 654-770 (93.1 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO).

Toxapex: After seeing the Solar Beam calcs I can see this moving down to checks, although I think we should not focus in trying to beat it at all, and if it ends up hard-countering us, then so be it.

Fire types: While they might struggle a bit to switch into CAP 24 coverage, mons like Volcarona, Volkraken, Blacephalon and Charizard should be able to check us. Scarf user in particular should always be able to revenge kill us, as now we know that it is unlikely that we'll be able to outspeed them.

Also I have to heavily disagree with DLC, we should not focus on being hard to wall but easier to revenge kill. On concept assessment we decided that what Sun team needed the most was speed control, as they already possess some of the strongest breakers in the metagame, Volkraken and Heatran, while between typing and ability, we cover the most important threats to Sand teams, Landorus-T and Tomohawk. Just because we chose Drought as our main ability doesn't mean that we should change our focus.

 

[G-Luke]

Chansey: I think this is obviously our most natural counter, and I personally believe that it should stay that way. However we should consider the fact that due to its passive nature, keeping it as a hard counter would mean to discard any stall-breaking moves, such as Taunt or Leech Seed. Not only that, but boosting moves could also be problematic, as with only 100 SpA, after a Sun-boosted Growth, LO Focus Blast is a 2HKO (+2 252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Focus Blast vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 359-424 (51.1 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), and at +4, Z-Focus Blast has a good chace of outright OHKO the blob (+4 252 SpA Starmie All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 654-770 (93.1 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO).

Toxapex: After seeing the Solar Beam calcs I can see this moving down to checks, although I think we should not focus in trying to beat it at all, and if it ends up hard-countering us, then so be it.

Fire types: While they might struggle a bit to switch into CAP 24 coverage, mons like Volcarona, Volkraken, Blacephalon and Charizard should be able to check us. Scarf user in particular should always be able to revenge kill us, as now we know that it is unlikely that we'll be able to outspeed them.

Also I have to heavily disagree with DLC, we should not focus on being hard to wall but easier to revenge kill. On concept assessment we decided that what Sun team needed the most was speed control, as they already possess some of the strongest breakers in the metagame, Volkraken and Heatran, while between typing and ability, we cover the most important threats to Sand teams, Landorus-T and Tomohawk. Just because we chose Drought as our main ability doesn't mean that we should change our focus.

By the time CAP can get to +4, it can be crippled by status, chipped by Seismic Toss and hazards can be set, so it still is an effective counter. And on Sand teams CAP has to pivot out, so Chansey is still very much an effective counter.

Cawmodore and Blaceplalon should be shifted to something that soft checks CAP 24 now that it has shifted from speed control to wallbreaker. And Pyroak should be a hard check, as it has been shown by suggestive calcs that in an idealistic setting, it will find it hard to counter CAP 23.

 

[Mx]

By the time CAP can get to +4, it can be crippled by status, chipped by Seismic Toss and hazards can be set, so it still is an effective counter. And on Sand teams CAP has to pivot out, so Chansey is still very much an effective counter.

If we assume that Chansey switches into CAP24 while we boost, that just leaves Chansey with one turn left before CAP gets to +4, so it can only throw one Seismic Toss or Toxic before it needs to switch out, else it risk getting KO'd by AOP, that is a pretty bad counter if you ask me.

Also I just remembered that Steel-Types like Ferrothorn, M-Scizor, Excadrill and Magearna were in our checks list. Due to the fact that now we have Drought, guaranteeing that whatever Fire-type move we use will be boosted by Sun, I think they should be moved to the pressure/threaten list, as they are seriously threatened by that, although they can still heavy damage to us with their STAB moves.

 

[Escavalier Royale]

Something that might be worth revising is the fact we want to threaten Celesteela while still being checked by Steel-types. As mentioned before, Drought powers up HP Fire, which means that even without a move like Flamethrower we'll be dealing massive damage to most Steel-types anyway, and makes it nigh impossible for stuff like Ferrothorn to check us while Mega Scizor requires us to be in Bullet Punch range and Excadrill basically needs to outspeed us. We could make CAP24 slower than both of them but that would leave us at a very awkward speed tier and unable to outspeed Heatran and Tapu Bulu if they run max speed.

Another thing that's questionable is how we want to beat Blacephalon when we're literally giving it free sun and we're unlikely to outspeed it, but that's a lesser issue as Blace isn't that hard to knock out because of its horrible bulk. Even if we make a special attacker, any unresisted physical priority (especially SSneak or SP) would probably still knock Blace out, and there always is a chance we outspeed anyway. Although, outspeeding Blacephalon means outspeeding Excadrill and KOing it with HP Fire, so then we're there again.

 

[SunshineFuture]

Frankly, Ferrothorn is something we should check to begin with imo. It often annoys Exca (although can be broken) and is overall something easy to beat without going overboard. As for Mega Scizor, Bullet Punch ALWAYS 2HKOs us at a minimum. The only way we would win versus MScizor is if Lele is also on the team, but I don’t think we should gimp a Pokémon based on a potential teammate. Excadrill frankly I feel should be a mutual check. We can stop any speed boosting it can do with either of our abilities, but it very easily can predict us coming in and nail us with Iron Head.

As for Blacephalon, I’m rather uncertain as to what to do with it. On the one hand, I haven’t seen an inch of discussion of having over 100 base speed on Discord, not have I heard much discussion as to how a mixed spread would work. On the other hand, we could end up with a Scarf set that beats any set other than Scarf Blace depending on our base speed. I’m inclined to put it as a check at the moment, simply so that stats don’t get restricted later.

 

[david0895]

Looking to the threatlist, CAP24 has to deal with mons that can do heavy damage like Mega Latios or Blacephalon. While this can be avoided giving it an higher speed, than others will fail to check it:
- non-scarf Plasmanta, Crucibelle, Excadrill (this only if Fire coverage will be allowed),
- Kitsunoh (Bullet Punch does the same damage of Shadow Strike)
- all the Fire types (only if the Rock coverage will be allowed)

 

[TKGriffiths]

I don't think beating or even checking Blacephalon is realistic or relevant anymore given our abilities. That was conceived with speed control (= Chlorophyll) in mind, CAP's intended role is completely different now.

Sand already has built in answers to Blacephalon in Tyranitar and Sand Rush Excadrill anyway. And in the context of our 'sun wallbreaking core' idea, Heatran and Volkraken both check it quite well too.

 

[snake]

I don't think Volkraken should be a 100% check for CAP24. It seems perfectly legitimate for Volkraken to lose to CAP24 if it switches into a Grass-type or Ground-type move and then is outsped the next turn. Choice Scarf Volkraken most likely will outspeed CAP24 outside of CAP24's own Choice Scarf set, which I think will be niche, but still viable with the appropriate speed stat. So, imo, Volkraken should just stay off the list because we shoudl define whether CAP24 should reliably switch into it and beat it (unless locked into Hydro Pump) or Volkraken should be able to reliably switch into CAP24 and beat it until we get to stats stage.

 

[K. Roolest Shark]

Mega Beedrill and Gengar should both be hard checks to CAP 24. The reason is due to both having high speed stats and both posessing strong Poison STABs capable of taking out CAP 24 in one hit. But are not counters due to their fraility and possible coverage.
Alolan Muk, Plasmanta, both Crucibelles, Fidgit and Mollux should also be hard checks due to their Poison STABS (and in the case of Mollux, its Fire STAB) with similar reasons to Bee and Gengar. They have powerful moves capable of dealing a massive chunk of damage towards CAP 24 but cannot safely switch in due to the possible coverage and stats. I can't really tell if these can be hard checks due to the lack of stats and movepool though.

 

[Escavalier Royale]

I don't think Mollux and, to an extent, Plasmanta will be good checks. After all, we're supposed to beat Heatran, so t's quite obvious we will get SOME sort of Ground coverage, and we will outspeed Mollux for sure else we can't beat Heatran either. Plasmanta once again depends on our speed tier but should stay off the list for much of the same arguments snake gave for Volkraken. A-Muk might stay because it will probably be able to tank a special hit with its bulk.

Also (correct me if wrong) Fidgit shouldn't be a check because from my experience it very rarely actually uses its Poison typing offensively.

Edit: Mentioning Mega Beedrill is pretty pointless too imo because 1) in the current meta it is not relevant at all (afaik it's not even ranked) and 2) No matter whether we want to check it or not we're very likely not going to give CAP24 over 145 speed. Trust me. Remember, the more we put into speed, the less we can put into other stats which CAP24 will need. Speed control can be achieved in other ways, like Scarf Volkraken or using a Chlorophyll user (sure, Venusaur and Victreebel aren't the best but it's not like they're unusable).

 

[Drapionswing]

Given the nature of the discussion so far I think extending this discussion for a maximum of 48 hours and a minimum of 24 hours would be incredibly beneficial for us to conclude this stage once and for all.

After reading these posts I get a sense of mixed feelings, towards counters and what should and can counter us. mxmts made a really strong point regarding Chansey. If we are to put it on our counter list, I want to make sure people are aware that it will limit tools we can give in the movepool stage in such a way to prevent us from breaking fat Pokemon with methods other than just attacking.

Regarding our effectiveness as a wallbreaker when cross-referenced with counters, there is more to being a wallbreaker than having "weak" counters, and making CAP24 more difficult to wall could backfire and have negative effects once introduced into the metagame. If the community deems this to be the way, then so be it, but I strongly advise we work on our checks and counters much more effectively if we're going to make this a healthy reality at the end of the process. Many pokemon have numerous effective counters, but still have great viability and I don't see why we can't follow this.

Some Pokemon I'd like to bring our attention to are:
Mollux
Chansey
Victini
Magearna

I'd like to see more discussion on these pokemon, and how Cap24 should interact with them.

Let's keep it going folks, this process has gone really well so far!

 

[SunshineFuture]

On second thought, Chansey is best where it is, if only to keep the door open for Focus Blast, which without Earth Power could be our only viable answer to Heatran.

The other Pokémon Drap mentioned are all a tossup for me. If we wish to forgo Earth Power, I easily can see at least Mollux and Victini being checks (Or even making Victini a counter, since it’s not quad weak to Ground). As for Magearna, I would have to run some calcs with Focus Blast. AV Magearna would certainly hard counter us (aside from Fire Blast/Earth Power, which I need to calc), but other Magearna sets I’m not so sure. All I know at this moment is that Victini should at least check us.

I think the main issue we all need to reconcile is Earth Power. While that’s not the main issue with Toxapex being a counter, it certainly is one of them. However, a lot of things that have been discussed are vulnerable to Earth Power- Magearna, Mollux, Plasmanta, Crucibelle, Fidgit and Victini just to name a few. HP Ground does damage to all of these, but even the Poisons quad weak are only 2HKOed (Frankly Fidgit should be taken off the list cause it doesn’t run Poison moves any more often than Pex does afaik). We need to determine if we want to wrap our threatlist around a contingency of not getting Earth Power to give us more counters. I would argue the answer is yes, because Focus Blast works just fine for what we want in conjunction with Fire coverage (or even just HP Fire). However, I think it’s a discussion to be had. (I don’t think this is considered polljumping, since discussion has basically been centered around Ground-weak Pokémon, but if a mod disagrees, feel free to just politely ask me to remove this post and I’ll be happy to comply. :D)

 

[Escavalier Royale]

Mollux: Same reasoning as earlier. It's quite hard to take down Heatran without taking down Mollux as well. To do so we would not give CAP24 any Ground coverage, so either have to use Water coverage to destroy Heatran, which is downright bad on a Sun mon, or Fighting coverage but then we'll have to resort to either the weak Aura Sphere or the unreliable Focus Blast. Plus, Mollux wouldn't want to come in anyway with Sun chipping at its health every turn as a sideeffect of Dry Skin. Keep this mon off the list.

Chansey: As we're more and more gearing towards a special mon, I see few problems with Chansey walling us. However, most Sun mons are also specially based, which may be annoying in the long run, but with Taunt Heatran and Knock Off Malaconda we'll get over it anyway.

Victini: I don't see a lot of reason to give this extra attention over other Fire types.

Magearna: Imo both Sun and Sand aren't particularly having a lot of trouble with Mag. Sand has Excadrill, Sun has nucleair-powered Fire moves... Even CAP24's Hidden Power Fire will do a lot to non-AV sets and not giving the CAP Hidden Power would be downright silly. I'm personally indifferent to Magearna's relation to CAP24.

Also, I'm kind of confused why Megakazam is still on the checks list. I think it got there to Trace Chlorophyll and RK CAP24 or something, but now that we have neither Chlorophyll, Sand Rush, Sand Force or Solar Power there's nothing really different between Megakazam and just naturally faster revenge killers.This is especially notable now that Alakazam can barely do anything with our abilities (it doesnt care whether there's Sun or not and Trace will just give it an ability we Traced ourselves).

 

[david0895]

Mollux: this can't be decided without knowing how we want to KO Heatran: without the Ground coverage, it will be a check, with that, it will be shreaded

Chansey: definitely a counter, while SubSeed exists, this is a stallbreaker tactic, that is anti-concept

Victini: while it is not offensively different from the other Fire types, the eventual Ground coverage will wreck it, so i'll wait so say it

Magearna: check, it can tank every coverage bar the Fire type with the AV, but removing it will make it impossible to deal with Celesteela