CAP 24 CAP 24 - Part 3 - Threats Discussion

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Quanyails

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Now with Grass/Fairy as our selected typing, we will be discussing how it fares against the threats in the CAP metagame! Drapionswing will be leading this thread, so pay close attention to his questions!

The following is a set of questions that we should try to answer during this discussion:
  • Going specifically by typing, what Pokemon found in the CAP metagame will be able to comfortably give this CAP project trouble?
  • What Pokemon will be major threats to this project right off the bat?
  • What Pokemon have the potential to become counters?
  • What Pokemon may end up as threats, but must be contained or dealt with per the concept?
  • Will the concept succeed with these set list of threats?
  • Is this list of threats acceptable for the project?
  • What Pokemon will be threatened by the CAP based off of typing?
  • Are these Pokemon targets that we want CAP to hit?
  • Will these targets be "unavoidable" to threaten based solely on the typing?
  • What direction must the project go in now that a set list of basic threats has been identified?
  • What must be done in order to make these threats "wanted counters" or these threats be eliminated from counter discussion?
  • What Pokemon do we want this project to counter entirely?
No individual post has to answer every question.

Guidelines:
1) Pay close attention to the Topic Leader during this discussion. Their job is to keep us focused and to bring insight.​
2) Do not poll jump. Poll jumping is a serious offense in these threads, and you can get infracted for it. Poll jumping is when you discuss something that should be discussed in the future, like specifying a CAP's stats or typing. You're allowed to hint at such things to conclude a point or to provide an example, but do not centralize your post on a poll jump. Poll jumping hurts the focus of early threads and can cause us to go off on a tangent. If you're not sure if a particular argument is poll jumping or not, err on the side of caution and don't post it.​

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CAP 24 so far:

Topic Leader: Drapionswing

Topic Leadership Team:
SHSP
: Typing Leader
Drew: Ability Leader
reachzero: Stats Leader
mxmts: Movepool Leader

Concept
Drew said:
  • Name - Snow or Shine (or Sand)
  • Description - A Pokemon that abuses 2 weather conditions for different effects
  • Justification - Currently in CAP, there is only one form of weather that is really worth using: rain, and only one really type of weather abuser: offensive sweeper. This concept means to address both of these issues by creating a new niche for two weather conditions. This concept would fill the archetype of a weather abuser, but I feel it also fits into the Actualization category as it would also aim to create a new role for a weather abuser for 1 or more different weather conditions.
  • Questions To Be Answered
    • Why are hail, sun, and sand underrepresented in the current metagame?
    • What makes rain the best weather condition currently?
    • How can this CAP encourage the use of other weather conditions? What do hail, sun, and/or sand need? Sweepers? Setters? Walls?
    • What weather effects are underutilized? How can we successfully use these effects?
    • How can one Pokemon utilize different weather conditions for different effects and sets?
    • Should this Pokemon be able to function outside of weather-based teams? If so, what niche would it need to fulfill? If it sets it's own weather, is it enough to abuse the weather condition on its own?
  • Explanation - For those who don't fully see how a not-sweeper weather abuser could work, take Lileep in LC for example. Lileep, mainly back in BW and XY as sand is quite uncommon in SM, is on most sand teams, as it can abuse its Rock-typing to boost Special Defense, the passive damage from sand, and its access to Recover and Toxic to become a weather abusing wall. Another possible interaction would be running Ferrothorn on rain teams to semi-nullify its Fire weakness. Not only typings are underexplored though! There are many moves, items, and of course abilities that can be used to abuse different weather conditions in a way that no Pokemon really does currently.
Typing: Grass/Fairy
 

Drapionswing

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The voters have spoken! Grass/Fairy is officially Cap24's designated typing. That leads us onto the Threats Discussion, here we will be evaluating what pokemon we want to beat Cap24, and equally what pokemon we don't want to beat it. However due to the nature of this concept, we should also be looking at threats for the particular weathers as well.

During this thread, I want to avoid assumptions based purely off typing as it lacks substance and direction for the discussion. When considering what we want to threaten, beat and/or lose to I'd like us to evaluate it in more detail and looking at particular Pokemon. Before going onto the questions I'd like to make it clear that I'll be structuring questions to evaluate the weathers indvidually to later bring the checklists together.

Onto the questions:

1.) When looking at Grass/Fairy on Sun, what traditional sun checks also check this typing?

2.) Which of these traditonal sun check should we aim to beat? If you think we should beat them all, what checks would that leave us with?

3.) When looking at Grass/Fairy on Sand, what traditional sand checks also check this typing?

4.) Which of these tradtional sand checks should we aim to beat? If you think we should beat them all, what checks would that leave us with?
 
1.) When looking at Grass/Fairy on Sun, what traditional sun checks also check this typing?

Fire continues to pose a defensive threat during the Sun, which is not helped by the fact that it hits CAP24 with STAB SE now. This typing doesn’t suffer from SR weakness, but it doesn’t possess any resistances either. However, to avoid the doom and gloom tone, it should be noted that the new type healthily beats the Dragon and Rock types that can be dangerous to Sun teams.

2.) Which of these traditonal sun check should we aim to beat? If you think we should beat them all, what checks would that leave us with?

Seeing as we’re only left with a single hard counter to Sun (Defensive Fire), I don’t think we should aim to counter that, otherwise we fall into the trap of creating a Sun Pokémon that kills fire types, which is practically the definition of an Anti-Sun Pokémon.

3.) When looking at Grass/Fairy on Sand, what traditional sand checks also check this typing?

Celesteela continues to be dangerous, and Cawmadore is not stopped by this typing. Water and ground types however, are walled by our new typing, so there do exist benefits.

4.) Which of these tradtional sand checks should we aim to beat? If you think we should beat them all, what checks would that leave us with?

Seeing as the combo Steel/Flying is the only one I could think of that walls both CAP24 and Tyranitar/Excadrill, I don’t think it’s necessarily our priority to beat that last check.
 

reachzero

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1.) When looking at Grass/Fairy on Sun, what traditional sun checks also check this typing?

Blacephalon (especially with Choice Scarf) is intensely threatening to Sun teams, boosting its Fire damage super high and wearing down Heatran and Volkraken with Shadow Ball. Grass/Fairy could definitely be a source of switch-ins for Blacephalon.

Both Mega Charizards have the coverage to hurt Sun teams, and can switch in as regular Charizard essentially for free if Stealth Rock is not up yet.

Mega Mawile is a threat to every kind of team, but Sun in particular lacks good switch-ins, and Grass/Fairy lets it in.

Volcarona can be annoying for Sun depending on the set. If Stealth Rock is not on the field, Grass/Fairy allows it in for free.

Heatran is the biggest single issue for Grass/Fairy and for Sun, and how we address Heatran will largely impact how good this CAP is.

Pyroak is a major threat against Sun with its ability to get Stealth Rock up and hit most of a Sun team with Lava Plume/Earth Power coverage. Grass/Fairy is walled completely.

That covers every Pokemon above B+ viability, and I don't see any in the B ranks that merit special attention.

2.) Which of these traditonal sun check should we aim to beat? If you think we should beat them all, what checks would that leave us with?

In my opinion, we absolutely must be able to threaten Heatran and Blacephalon, which pose massive threats to a Sun team and which each lose to the same sort of coverage. Every other threat on the list is of lesser importance and negotiable. Of course, depending on which attacking spectrum we use, the usual blanket checks (Landorus-T, Chansey, perhaps Toxapex) come into play as well.

3.) When looking at Grass/Fairy on Sand, what traditional sand checks also check this typing?

Landorus-T could be an issue if CAP 24 turns out to be a physical attacker, and it poses significant threat to Sand.

Celesteela is the most obvious defensive threat to Sand, and walls Grass/Fairy completely. One of the most important question marks.

Magearna walls Grass/Fairy completely. Its threat to Sand is dependent on its set, and on the prediction skills of the Magearna user (whether it can hit Excadrill with Focus Blast/HP Fire/Ground).

Mega Charizard-X can be annoying for Sand if Stealth Rock isn't up. Grass/Fairy allows it in for free as normal Charizard.

Assault Vest Tapu Bulu is pretty scary for Sand, and can blanket check CAP 24 if it is special.

Heatran is a major threat to Sand teams, and comes in free on Grass/Fairy. Tyranitar sounds good against Heatran until you come in on Toxic/Tectonic Rage/Corkscrew Crash/Bloom Doom.

Kartana is hugely threatening to Sand if CAP 24 is physical, which would let Kartana in for free.

Cawmodore is a surprisingly dangerous threat to Sand because it often eschews a Scarf user in favor of Excadrill, which can't beat Caw. Grass/Fairy lets it in for free.


4.) Which of these traditional sand checks should we aim to beat? If you think we should beat them all, what checks would that leave us with?

Heatran and Celesteela are the most important threats to overcome in Sand, but I would like to see if we can keep Magearna as a counter. Almost every answer (except Electric attacks) that beats Celesteela will by extension threaten Cawmodore.
 
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Deck Knight

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WIP (Posted early)

I always defer to reachzero and others when it comes to pointing out the most relevant threats, not my strongest suit. Having been given that information, here's how I see it on a case by case basis, using some of the points reach made in his post in concept assessment about what Sun and Sand Teams need.

The short version is Sun needs Speed Control and Sand needs a breaker.

With that in mind, I think we need to compartmentalize each usage:

Sun CAP Checks:

Sun CAP should threaten:

Blacephalon - Blacephalon is relatively frail and as sun lacks a good Speed Control Pokemon, if our CAP serves this purpose and can stop a Blacephalon sweep while sun is up, it will be a valuable teammate.

Heatran - Heatran is already so powerful against Sun that CAP cannot afford to lose to it, full stop. Typing exacerbated this in many respects but Heatran does have exploitable weaknesses.

Mega Mawile - While CAP can't switch into Iron Head, Mega Maw is not blithely going to switch into ZardY, and so CAP benefits primarily because Sun boosts a type that is SE on Mega Maw and CAP resists Sucker Punch, so this is not a stretch to threaten.

Mega Charizard X - MegaZard X is within the realm of stoppable as well because CAP is immune to Outrage and resists Earthquake, meaning the avoidance of Flare Blitz on a switch could provide the offensive opportunity CAP needs.

Sun CAP should not threaten:

Volcarona - Volcarona is primarily used on Sun teams as well and its statistical makeup requires different answers than the Pokemon above it should threaten. Volcarona has too many good tools and too good a general matchup unless rocks are down.

Mega Charizard Y - If the opponent is using Zard Y, then Sun is in some sense flourishing. For the same reasons Volcarona puts heavy pressure on CAP, Zard Y is a bridge too far to try and address.

Pyroak is an important check to maintain because other Pokemon on a sun team can address it. Pyroak doesn't resist Fire moves itself and any set with Synthesis will be difficult to overcome without overpowering CAP. Pyroak tends to be team glue for non-sun teams and so it threatening CAP specifically when ZardY is such an able switch-in to it makes it not a priority for CAP specifically.

Sand CAP Checks:

Sand CAP should threaten:

Landorus-T is too ubiquitous for CAP not to be able to swiftly answer. We have an EQ resistance (and need to watch out for SSSS), lets not be afraid to use it.

Assault Vest Tapu Bulu - As perhaps the Pokemon that most comprehensively neuters Sand, hitting AV Bulu hard is a priority. Fortunately CAP resists just about everything Bulu can throw at it and gets the Grassy Terrain healing.

Magearna is much like Heatran is for Sun, and is a Pokemon that CAP should threaten effectively. Some Magearna sets might be more effective than others against CAP, but CAP should never be lost against Magearna.

Heatran / Mega Charizard-X - Same logic as Sun CAP.

Sand CAP should prevent from getting free switchins:

Celesteela is problematic primarily because every single offensive move it tends to use hits CAP super-effectively and it is incredibly bulky. Ideally, Celesteela fears switching in but it is unlikely to lose a neutral matchup.

Cawmodore - Like Celesteela, a mon that should not expect to get in for free but whose offensive options do threaten CAP.

Kartana - Is tangentially addressed in the same manner as Celesteela/Cawmodore. Interestingly, it's only immediately threatening if it runs Smart Strike, CAP resists Leaf Blade and Sacred Sword.

In this sense, against these three mons CAP might be forced out if it's run in sand, but Sun CAP actually handles them ably (bar a set-up Cawmodore's Bullet Punch which will prevail.)
 
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DetroitLolcat

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1.) When looking at Grass/Fairy on Sun, what traditional sun checks also check this typing?

I don't think there is such thing as "traditional Sun checks". Sun is not a viable playstyle in the CAP metagame as it stands. Mega Charizard Y is the only viable Pokemon that sets Sun, and it's often not paired with any Sun abusers because of the limited number of turns for which it can keep the Sun up. Occasionally you'll see Charizard Y paired with Volkraken or Heatran, but just as often you'll see Charizard Y paired with Tyranitar and Excadrill because of how well Charizard Y checks Steel-types such as Celesteela and Ferrothorn! There is no way to describe what checks Sun (outside of other weathers) because CAP24 will prescribe what checks Sun. By the end of this project, CAP24 will almost certainly be the only Pokemon in the CAP metagame that greatly takes advantage of the Sun. CAP24's checks will become Sun's checks.

Imagine, for a moment, that Excadrill did not exist. There would not be a viable Sand abuser in the OU tier. There would be Pokemon that benefit from Sand, sure. Celesteela and Ferrothorn come to mind because they stack passive damage so well. But there would not be a "Sand Abuser". If we built a Sand abuser, whichever Pokemon checked the Sand abuser would become traditional Sand checks. And the metagame verifies this: "Sand check" and "Excadrill check" can be used interchangeably. The same will happen with Sun and CAP24. Whichever Pokemon checks Sun CAP24 will become traditional Sun checks.

I'll post about the other questions later.
 
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LucarioOfLegends

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3.) When looking at Grass/Fairy on Sand, what traditional sand checks also check this typing?
Celesteela is probably the biggest one to stand out here. It absolutely destroys common sand STABs and continues to do so with CAP24. It takes jack all from both of our STABs and can threaten us out in at least 3 different ways. Cawmodore is similar in nature due to typing and its moveset is possibly even more threatening with Bullet Punch and Acrobatics. Magearna works as well, but its not exactly fond of Excadrill. Landorus-T is just a good mon, but its moderate shift away from SSSS makes the matchup with CAP24 a lot more in the air, since we resist Earthquake and can damage it neutrally with our stabs (plus Z-nukes). Heatran is a massive headache to switch into for everything on the team, even with ground coverage.

In general, Sand struggles with a lot of popular Steels, and the trend continues with CAP24's typing.

4.) Which of these tradtional sand checks should we aim to beat? If you think we should beat them all, what checks would that leave us with?
Heatran is something that should be dealt with regardless of teams, as it can shut down both sand and sun. Getting in on it will be hard no matter what we do due to our type, but we have to be able to KO it once we are in. Celesteela, and therefore Cawmodore, is also something we should probably beat since the only thing that can touch it is a terrible Fire Punch from a Ttar. Getting something that can beat it is essential to Sand survival. Everything else is not as massive a threat, and I see no reason to explicitly go out of the way to fight Lando-T since we have a lot going for us.
 
I'll try to cover some less obvious things that haven't come up yet.

Dragon/Flying is a typing that checks sun and sand decently, though of course this isn't something we necessarily lose to due to trading super effective damage both ways. This isn't a particularly prevalent typing in the present metagame, but it could be if our weathers become relevant. The above point about trading super effective damage both ways applies to Kyurem-B and Weavile as well; while they're not really a problem for our weathers specifically, no team wants to be giving them free turns. Being able to stay in and possibly beat them 1v1 would be nice.

Amoonguss/Toxapex individually can be annoying for sand/sun respectively given how hard they are to wear down. On the bright side, Toxapex doesn't use poison coverage and even Amoonguss may opt for a different move in that slot. We may actually be able to beat these.

I was going to mention Cyclohm as a thing that worries sun (by sun I mean Charizard-Y) a bit that we could potentially wall, but it would have a sun-boosted fire move to fight back with which is a bit of a bummer.

I don't think we can possibly threaten them all offensively with only 4 moves given Grass/Fairy's poor coverage, so a targeted approach to individual threats will be necessary. Heatran I think is the most important thing to address given that there's no silver bullet for it in the form of Dugtrio anymore. Blacephalon is less important because it has more easily exploitable flaws,
 
I was going to mention Cyclohm as a thing that worries sun (by sun I mean Charizard-Y) a bit that we could potentially wall, but it would have a sun-boosted fire move to fight back with which is a bit of a bummer.
But Moonblast tho. Also we likely will outspeed it since Cyclohm doesn't typically run speed on Defensive sets.

Onto my own thoughts. This is a little obvious, but Poison-types send us to hell and back. Mollux laughs at us without Sun and still wins with it. Resisting all STAB moves and the only likely things to hit it hard are Sand Weather Ball and HP Ground (which with 125 LO Modest still only 2HKOs on HP Ground). Earth Power beats it but that's a discussion for another day. Meanwhile, Plasmanta and Crucibelle eat us always UNLESS we go Chlorophyll (again, discussion for another day). Finally, Fidgit running a Poison-type move crushes us immediately. Out of these, I think it's okay if we lose to these guys, barring the potential acception of Plasmanta, only because Charizard Y also loses to it and it is actually a problem, but I suppose Sun cannot be invincible. If one Pokemon had to be a traditional Sun check for us, Plasmanta isn't a hard one to handle imo. Amoonguss for the five people who run it also beats us too, but rn it is so bad I don't feel like mentioning it.

For Pokemon I think we should beat, Heatran, Celesteela and Tomohawk are what I think we need to beat. Heatran beats both weathers, so I think beating Heatran is a must at this point. Celesteela walls sand (including our STABs) completely, so a move to chunk Celesteela is a big need imo. Tomohawk for once is not as big of a deal as other mons (AKA those two I just mentioned), but Tomohawk overall is important to beat for ANY offensive mon, weather or otherwise. Being weak to Tomo is something this concept cannot afford.
Btw I loathe your icon js
 
But Moonblast tho. Also we likely will outspeed it since Cyclohm doesn't typically run speed on Defensive sets.
My idea was that this could be a safe switch-in to Cyclohm when it's in against Charizard-Y due to resisting both its STAB, but of course it isn't due to what I mentioned.

I was going to mention poison-types as a whole but except the ones I mentioned most of them don't check sand/sun at all, so they're not shared checks like the questions are asking for. I don't see Plasmanta as a problem; Excadrill eats it for breakfast, and in sun its typing and stats don't help it. I doubt it could even avoid the OHKO from Charizard-Y's Fire Blast meaning it's a shaky check if at all because of the speed tie.
 
Pelipper, while not a brilliant mon removes sunlight and sand, and brings a SE perfect accuracy Hurricane. It may be hit neutrally by both stabs, but I feel it's worth mentioning that a mon which can switch into a. Sun boosted Fire STAB, remove sun, and resist Fire as well is something to watch out for.
 

Deck Knight

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To move this thread in a little more of a concrete direction, I'd like to consolidate a few things and focus on the traits of certain threats.

Bear in mind the idea of our CAP is that we will be a weather abuser. These threats do not necessarily hold true if CAP is not actively abusing the respective weather, so if the list seems long, remember that these are under ideal conditions not neutral match-ups. I am also adding threats that are not explicitly part of Sand or Sun checks to get a better feel for how CAP should operate.

Pokemon with the same general set of weaknesses and defenses:

Want to threaten:

Group 1:
Blacephalon
Cawmodore
Mega Charizard X
Greninja-Ash
Kartana
Landorus-Therian

These Pokemon are either generally fast and frail or they focus more strongly on one defense and often neglect the other, and therefore the coverage of one tends to encompass coverage of the others.

- - -
Group 2:
Arghonaut
Celesteela
Colossoil
Cyclohm
Dragonite
Ferrothorn (Sun Only)
Garchomp
Heatran
Magearna
Mega Mawile
Mollux
Naviathan
Mega Pinsir
Pyroak (Sand Only)
Mega Scizor (Sun Only)
Skarmory
AV Tapu Bulu
Tomohawk
Volcarona (Sand Only)
Zygarde

These Pokemon are significantly more bulky, and excepting exploitation of x4 weaknesses are the sort of Pokemon that would tend to prevail in neutral matchups. Tapu Bulu, Colossoil, and Zygarge tend not to run anything super-effective or STAB against CAP, the rest require more aggressive answers.

After this, we should consider grouping Pokemon we want to threaten CAP and their groupings:

Want to be threatened by:

Group 1:
Mega Charizard Y
Excadrill (Sand Only)
Mega Pidgeot
Syclant (Sand Only)
AV Tornadus-Therian
Volcarona

These Pokemon are fast, offensive Pokemon, some with varying degrees of prowess in one defense over another that threaten CAP extremely effectively. While it's possible CAP could overcome them in ideal circumstances, it otherwise struggles against them.

Group 2:
Chansey
Fidgit
Pyroak (Sun Only)
Mega Venusaur

These are purely defensive checks that can stave off the majority of CAP's assaults and keep coming back. There will obviously be other niche additions based on set, but these Pokemon could generally be relied on to blanket check CAP and still be metagame viable.

I want to note one last time that this is a list of threats. Many of the Pokemon even on the threaten list are capable of checking CAP in favorable or sometimes even neutral circumstances. The central purpose of the checks exercise is to focus on which Pokemon absolutely should be able to stop CAP and which ones should not be given free reign to switch in. Mutual checks abound in CAP.
 
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Going right off from Deck’s list, I’m going to remove Pokémon that we automatically threaten with our STABs that we are likely to outspeed (which is why Ash-Gren is still a threat), as we don’t have to do anything in particular to best them. Also, im going to remove Pokémon that have other teammates they lose to in both weathers (Like Excadrill and ZardY eating Bulu). I’m under the assumption we will have at least 80 speed, because it out speeds Heatran, which is very likely to be something we want to beat regardless. Some of these Pokémon vary on how much we need to do to beat them depending on sets or circumstances, but that’s how it goes.

Note that these are Pokémon that we should likely put more effort into beating. Just because something is not on this list does not mean we should not beat it (For example, Volcarona).
Not gonna do Group 1 cause all of them remain lmao

Celesteela
Dragonite (Switching in on SSSS)
Ferrothorn (Sun Only)
Heatran (Sun only maybe? Exca beats it but idk)
Mollux (See Heatran)
Naviathan (Sand only? Pretty sure ZardY roasts it with Fire or Focus Blast)
Pyroak (Sand Only)
Mega Scizor (Sun Only)
Skarmory
Tomohawk (Switching In)

Out of those Pokémon, I personally would like to target Heatran and Celesteela. I’m just reducing the list slightly to hone in what we should work towards beating so we don’t waste our time on Pokémon that can be beaten already, whether through our STABs or through teammates.
 

Drapionswing

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We've had some interesting responses to the questions, but before we move on I'd like to bring up some pokemon and/or playstyles that didn't get any discussion.

Firstly I'd like to bring up Trick Room as a playstyle to discuss. With pokemon like Fidgit and Marowak-A being able to pressure Sun teams, and to a lesser extent Sand teams, how would we ant to approach these pokemon? Do we want to be checked by them, or do we want to prevent them from gaining momentum on Cap24. Another playstyle I'd like to also evaluate is Stall, with pokemon like Chansey(given the result that we're special), Toxapex or unaware Clefable.

When it comes to sun teams, there are multiple dragons that can pressure you in a pinch. Given Cap24's fairy typing we're able to switch into some Dragons, while we've discussed Mega Charizard X we have yet to discuss other Dragons such as Latios and Pajantom, so I'd like to evaluate these pokemon. Do we want Cap24 to be just an offensive check to these two individuals, or would it be more in our interest to also be able to switch into their alternate stabs?
 
Unaware Clefable I don’t care about. If we beat it, cool. If not, whatever. Chansey I think we can get away with being checked by. I think we can still be checked by Chansey if we have recovery, so long as Chansey can also recover and do Chansey things. That scenario would eventually lead to a PP stall loss on our part, so even with recovery, Chansey still can force us out. As for Toxapex, I think that this is the only one we have a decent reason to properly address. While outclassed by Tomohawk in this regard, Toxapex still often runs Haze. That can stop any setting up either we or TTar does in Sand (as well as ZardY Flame Charge but Thapex is slow anyway). Also, coverage moves to alleviate other threats, such as Heatran, Celesteela and Tomohawk, also threaten Toxapex. Basically, I think we shouldn’t target Toxapex SPECIFICALLY, but still be okay if Toxapex is beaten by moves that beat other things we DO want to specifically target.

Trick Room is, well, tricky. On the one hand, Alolan Marowak and Fidgit check either Sun, Sand, or both. On the other hand, Trick Room is good overall, like Volcarona is. Personally I think we should mutually check the two Trick Room Pokemon. Coverage checks the two of them (likely in one slot, no less). Marowak-Alola crushes us on the switch with Flare Blitz, or at least does enough damage to where if Trick Room is up (which if it isn’t why are you using Alowak), another Flare Blitz will do you in. Fidgit checks us less than we would check it, but since it’s a common setter and that it threatens both Sun and Sand, I think that’s fine. Anyways, Fidgit can run Poison-type moves to catch us off guard.

Tl;dr: Whatever to Clefable and Chansey, mutually check Alowak and Fidgit, and only beat Thapex with moves that we use to beat other things.
 

snake_rattler

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First I'd like to bring up Trick Room as a playstyle to discuss. With Pokemon like Fidgit and Marowak-A being able to pressure Sun teams, and to a lesser extent Sand teams, how would we want to approach these Pokemon? Do we want to be checked by them, or do we want to prevent them from gaining momentum on CAP24? Another playstyle I'd like to also evaluate is Stall, with Pokemon like Chansey (given the result that we're special), Toxapex or unaware Clefable.

There are two types of Trick Room in CAP.

The first is Fidgit Trick Room. It usually consists of Fidgit / secondary setter / Tapu Bulu / Mega Mawile or Mega Camerupt / Marowak-A / a cleaner outside of Trick Room or another Trick Room abuser. It could be classified as "Semi-Room," but it still relies on Trick Room heavily as a strategy. Personally, I run a bulky Fidgit, which means it's hard to OHKO. Sometimes they run Focus Sash to almost guarantee Trick Room goes up. On a Turn 1 situation, I don't think it's possible for CAP24 to easily prevent Trick Room from going up unless we have Taunt or some absurdly strong coverage. At this moment, I'm not too comfortable with Taunt, given what we want to leave as threats. What would be useful is if CAP24 could be able to gain momentum against one component of the team and force the Trick Room team to make some tricky decisions. For example, if it switches in against non-Rockium Z SD Tapu Bulu, CAP24 could exert some pressure on the Trick Room team with the correct coverage while Trick Room is active.

The other kind of Trick Room is Uxie / Cresselia. These teams usually rely pretty heavily on KOing the opposing team extremely quickly, as they have a fewer total of turns to work with. The rest of the team is usually Stakataka / Marowak-A / Zygarde / Crawdaunt, or other good abusers like Mega Mawile and Mega Camerupt. Now, bulky Fidgit is, well, bulky. Uxie and Cresselia are absurd. If CAP24 is able to OHKO either of these, we probably have too much power. Again, Taunt for me is worrisome, but it could end up on the movepool; it's too early to decide that. However, given that Zygarde and Crawdaunt are pretty common on these teams, CAP24 can potentially gain some momentum against them and wedge its way into disrupting the Trick Room sweep.

tl;dr If we have a chance to stop Trick Room from happening at all, it's either a) Taunt, or b) being able to come in against some of the common abusers. I think b) is a more reasonable goal, but either way could be ways to address Trick Room if need be.

When it comes to sun teams, there are multiple dragons that can pressure you in a pinch. Given CAP24's fairy typing we're able to switch into some Dragons, while we've discussed Mega Charizard X we have yet to discuss other Dragons such as Latios and Pajantom, so I'd like to evaluate these pokemon. Do we want Cap24 to be just an offensive check to these two individuals, or would it be more in our interest to also be able to switch into their alternate stabs?

I think preventing these Pokemon from switching in is a good baseline to start. Mega Latios never runs Hidden Power Fire, and Pajantom runs Brave Bird and Ice Punch only a small part of the time. Notably, we beat any non-Iron Tail Zygarde, which is a relief for both Sun and Sand teams. Whether we want to offensively check (be able to switch in, outspeed, and KO) them or depends on our speed stat and whether we want a speed-boosting weather ability or not.

I think it's safe to say that we should be able to tank a hit from their alternate STAB move. Whether or not we want to tank them twice in a row, or tank them once and outspeed, or only take them once and retaliate is something that's pretty speed stat dependent, as well as bulk dependent.
 
1) When looking at Grass/Fairy on Sun, what traditional sun checks also check this typing?

As DLC pointed out, it's pretty hard to define "Sun Check" when Sun is not a viable archetype in the meta, so for the purpose of this post I'll assume that the core members of a Sun team are Malaconda (Drought), Volkraken (Wallbreaker), Heatran (Stallbreaker/Wallbreaker) and Tomohawk (Secondary setter and Blanket check to physical attackers). I don't include Venusaur as speed control because I believe that it is already very underwhelming, and ideally, CAP 24 should replace. It is also important to note that are many other possible mons that might end up finding a spot in a theoretical post-CAP 24 Sun team, such as Krilowatt, M-Houndoom, M-Crucibelle, M-Charizard-X/Y, etc, and should be able to patch holes in the team.

Heatran: Resist both of our STAB, threaten us with powerful Fire attacks, and very few things are able to switch into Magma Storm/Earth Power (And even most things that are able to still don't enjoy having their health chipped down)

M-Charizard-X/Y: Both forms are able to come into our STABs and deal massive damage with their Sun-boosted Fire STAB, and can give serious headaches to the rest of our teammate, as Char-Y can 2HKO Heatran with Focus Blast, and Tomohawk takes 71% minimum from Char-X Sun boosted Flare Blitz.

Hawlucha: While we might be able to hit it hard with our Fairy STAB, we still take super effective from Acrobatics, and with an Unburden boost, Lucha has a easy time sweeping through most of our proposed teammates.

Volkraken: Resist our most spammable STAB, retaliates back with Fire Blast, and can deal a huge chunk of damage to Heatran if it predicts correctly and hits it with Hydro Pump (252 SpA Analytic Volkraken Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran in Sun: 228-270 (59 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery).

Volcarona: Sets up Quiver Dance for free against us, and can break through Heatran if packing HP Ground.

Blacephalon: It might be so fragile that it can even switch into our resisted STABs, and Heatran serves as a decent check, but during late-game it can snowball out of control very easily if its given a chance

2.) Which of these traditonal sun check should we aim to beat? If you think we should beat them all, what checks would that leave us with?

I believe that we should aim to beat Heatran, Volcarona and Charizard 1v1, (they might pose a huge threat to us, but we can take advantage of their x4 weaknesses and relatively low speed) and to at least deal heavy damage to Volkraken and Blacephalon to avoid letting them switch in easily. As fo other checks for us:

Toxapex/Chansey/Pyroak (Generic special walls): Due to the fact that we need to prioritize dealing with Tomohawk and Landorus-T for Sand teams (more on that later), specially bulky mons are our most obvious defensive checks, and I believe we should aim to make them fully counter most CAP 24 sets, to guarantee that we don't make it too powerful.

AV Magearna: Due to the Sun boosting Fire-Type moves, it is far from an ideal counter, as even HP Fire will deal decent chip damage, but it should still tank our attacks thanks to its massive bulk (Here's a fun calc to illustrate this point: 252 SpA Stratagem Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Sun: 148-176 (40.7 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO), and it is still able to threaten us with Flash Cannon/Iron Head.

Hawlucha: I don't think there's realistically a way out for us against this, it would be better to just let a teammate handle this (Krilowatt and Coba Berry Tomohawk could be two possible options)

M-Scizor: While it fears even a weak HP Fire, it still comes into our STAB and deal a good amount of damage with Bullet Punch, meaning that it could potentially serve as an emergency check to revenge kill a weakened CAP 24, even if we possess Fire coverage.

Kartana: It might be unable to switch-in, but it should still revenge kill us if it's packing Smart Strike


3.) When looking at Grass/Fairy on Sand, what traditional sand checks also check this typing?

Sand has a much more defined main core: Tyranitar/Hippowdon + Excadrill, as this is already a decent, although flawed strategy. However, other possible members are not really defined, so I will I'll consider a Sand check something that can threaten those 3 Pokémon.

Tomohawk: It completely counters Tyranitar and Excadrill, and the best It's easy to make the mistake of assuming that our Fairy-Type gives us a free pass against it, but its ability to deal with physical attacker should not be underestimated, Mimikyu and Cawmodore are good examples of mons that despite having a Super-effective STAB, still struggle to break Tomohawk, and take a huge amount of damage from Rocky Helmet. Let's also not forget the fact that we are weak against Flying-types, so we will be taking at least a decent amount of damage from Air Slash.

Landorus-T: Has a good match-up the rest of our team, but it's ability do deal with CAP 24 depends heavily whether we are physical or special, as if we are the former, it should be able to tank our attacks with relative ease (For example, -1 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 112-133 (29.3 - 34.8%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery). We might resist Earthquake, but we're still very vulnerable to Flynium-Z variants, so we can't afford to give Lando-T any free turns.

Hawlucha: Same problems as Sun teams.

Cawmodore: It can come in easily into our teammates, and CAP 24 doesn't stand a chance once it sets up. However before it Belly Drums, we could easily take advantage of its weak Special Defense.

Celesteela: This is a nightmare match-up for CAP 24, as it is able to hit us with either Heavy Slam or Flamethrower, it resist both our STABs, it has the bulk to survive even against strong coverage, and can even recover health by using Leech Seed against one of our teammates.

4.) Which of these traditional sand checks should we aim to beat? If you think we should beat them all, what checks would that leave us with?

It is vital for the success of the project that we can reliably deal with Landorus and Tomohawk, as those two are S-Rank in the VR, and can walk all over the rest of our teammates otherwise. This shouldn't be too hard, as both are extremely vulnerable on the special side, which also helps immensely against Cawmodore, which won't be able to set up easily on us. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if we'll be able to completely handle Celesteela, we can lower the Base Power of Heavy Slam down to 40 by making CAP 24 weight incredibly high, or give it huge special defense stat to better tank Flamethrower, but we also need strong super-effective coverage to deal any significant damage to Celesteela (For example, Scarf Lele can't 2HKO it even with Thunderbolt: 252 SpA Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela: 168-198 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery). That being said we should definitely attempt to at least not be dead weight against it

Our checks should be pretty similar to our Sun checks, the only notable difference is that Steel types are much more threatening here, as any Fire move we could have would not be boosted here.
 

LucarioOfLegends

#BuffPlas2020
is a CAP Contributor
Snake did a good job talking about TR, which I have no experience with, so not going to talk about that.

Dragons

Dragon types are kinda tricky mons to fight because of their unusually massive coverage pools. Dragonite, Cyclohm, and Garchomp all carry moves that can utterly destroy us, with the former having STAB flying moves while the latter has strong Fire type coverage. Dragonite is especially tough to deal because of Multiscale and the possibility of Supersonic Skystrike. In all honesty, being able to hard check Dragonite is a fools errand, so probably making it a soft check is a good fit. The other two don't have as great of insurance against CAP24, but should be fought carefully nonetheless. These could probably be qualified as making it a check, but harder than Dragonite.

The other major dragons, those being Zygarde, Pajantom, and Latios don't carry coverage that kills us nearly as often so beating them as checks or even counters is still in the realm of possibility. For now we can make CAP24 hard check them.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
is a Pre-Contributor
First I'd like to bring up Trick Room as a playstyle to discuss. With Pokemon like Fidgit and Marowak-A being able to pressure Sun teams, and to a lesser extent Sand teams, how would we want to approach these Pokemon? Do we want to be checked by them, or do we want to prevent them from gaining momentum on CAP24? Another playstyle I'd like to also evaluate is Stall, with Pokemon like Chansey (given the result that we're special), Toxapex or unaware Clefable.

About Fidgit and Alolan Marowak, i think that CAP24 shouldn't be able to beat them, but being able to pressure them, outside the TR and with a Ground coverage move, could be a good option.

For the stall, I don't think that there should be a specific target.

When it comes to sun teams, there are multiple dragons that can pressure you in a pinch. Given CAP24's fairy typing we're able to switch into some Dragons, while we've discussed Mega Charizard X we have yet to discuss other Dragons such as Latios and Pajantom, so I'd like to evaluate these pokemon. Do we want Cap24 to be just an offensive check to these two individuals, or would it be more in our interest to also be able to switch into their alternate stabs?

Since CAP24 will be an offensive pokemon, it should be a simple check to them.
 
I'd like to think fairy STAB alone should be enough to let this check Lati@s. (Besides defensive Lati@site Calm Mind + Boltbeam sets if this ends up as a special attacker, which are uncommon AFAIK). This basically applies to all dragons that don't carry strong super-effective coverage.

Against stall I don't think we need to worry too much due to Sun naturally being a hyper offense/wallbreaking archetype, we shouldn't bend over backwards to try to beat the specific threats you mentioned. That being said, I expect the movepool to contain at least some tools with blanket applications against stall. Growth is the obvious one, maybe Knock Off or a pivoting move too.
 

Drapionswing

Eating it up, YUMMY!
is a CAP Contributor
With all of the discussion that's taken place so far, it's apparent that Cap24 should be able to beat some standard sun checks such as Blacephalon and Heatran while also being to pressure standard sand checks such as Landorus-T and Tomohawk. Whilst also losing to pokemon like Excadrill and Volcarona which are ironically also weather abusers. That being said, I'd like to draw our attention to Cap24 checks unrelated to weather and what pokemon should personally pressure Cap24.


5.) What pokemon should pressure and/or beat Cap24 regardless of weather being active?
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
is a Pre-Contributor
5.) What pokemon should pressure and/or beat Cap24 regardless of weather being active?

Steel types should be one of the easiest way to pressure it, but not all of them.
More in the detail, only those that are neutral to a Ground/Fighting coverage, like Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn, Cawmodore, Celesteela, etc..., can be good counters.
About checks, faster Flying and Ice types should be a must
 
5.) What pokemon should pressure and/or beat Cap24 regardless of weather being active?

Magearna at the least should be a pressurizer at least without the correct coverage on this mon. It walls both STAB's, hits back SE with its STAB Flash Cannon. It is susceptible to Ground and Fire; which I'd expect to see elsewhere on a Sand or Fire team.

Charizard-Y; Charizard-Y is going to bring Sun regardless, which turns off Sand, is immune to any Ground Coverage, resists any Water coverage we may have, and is susceptible only to Electric-type while the Sun is up. Zard-Y brings Solar Beam and Focus Blast, which are both Resisted by CAP24, but the boosted Sun and resists to it's STAB's means that it's going to make a dent in any Steel, Dark, Rock, or Ground type which might want to pop in. If it's a Sun Mirrormatch, there should be no boost which allows a Grass/Fairy to beat a Flying/Fire mon.

Heatran; (Corner-case) Without Ground Coverage, or with Heatran using Air Balloon, it should be able to resist the STABs of CAP24. Heatran already hurts Sun Teams; how do we make it susceptible under sun? Fighting Coverage? There's Focus Blast Charizard-Y already.

Necturna; The two STABS hit no better than Neutrally, and it can pick up some dirty poison move if it wishes to OHKO. No usage recorded of Poison Sketch; usually takes V-Create/Dragon Ascent, Priority or Support.

Skarmory; Takes both STAB's well, immune to Ground, and Rock is only 1* effective. Offensive Skarms are few and far between (25% Brave Bird usage in 1760), but hit pretty hard.

Marowak-A; Resists the grass STAB, benefits from the boosted Sun to hit back hard and resist water coverage, and if we want to have a speedy mon to counter any other threats, the use of this mon on a Trick Room team will have it outspeeding us.

M-Venusaur; Nice and fat, and pressurizes with a Gunk Shot, and resists CAP24 Grass STAB excellently.

Tornadus-T; brings Heat wave to the table if CAP24 is in a sun team, while Hurricane can be used in place of Air Slash, especially if it's a Rain Team. Many sets also bring a Life Orb'd Sludge Wave which would take an insane level of bulk to resist with a 4* Weakness. Even without Life Orb, AV or Flyinium-Sets would make a mess of CAP24.
 
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5.) What pokemon should pressure and/or beat Cap24 regardless of weather being active?

CAP24 isn't going to appreciate taking priority hits of any kind barring maybe Sucker Punch and Aqua Jet. This means mons like Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Syclant, Cawmodore and to a far lesser extent Kitsunoh and Necturna are going to be able to beat us around even if weather is up with a speed boosting ability. Volcarona generically pressures everything and its STAB is super effective. Focus Sash Fidget can pressure us out if it carries a Poison move. Mega Venusaur completely decimates it with Sludge Bomb and takes no damage from our STAB. Necturna can presure it with super effective coverage and can pressure with Shadow Sneak.
 
I think that people are confusing “counters only in no weather” and “counters that don’t care about the weather”. Steels should absolutely not beat us, especially if we want to help Sand. They at worst (and likely will be) mutual checks to us. Sash Fidgit I’m down with. Chansey also falls under this category, since it’s a blanket wall. Toxapex is a tossup, because Ground coverage is likely. Crucibelle is very interesting, as it doesn’t give a crap about Sun and is actually BULKIER in Sand. It would likely be more of a check, but still.
 
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