CAP 24 CAP 24 - Part 3 - Threats Discussion

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#26
5.) What pokemon should pressure and/or beat Cap24 regardless of weather being active?

CAP24 isn't going to appreciate taking priority hits of any kind barring maybe Sucker Punch and Aqua Jet. This means mons like Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Syclant, Cawmodore and to a far lesser extent Kitsunoh and Necturna are going to be able to beat us around even if weather is up with a speed boosting ability. Volcarona generically pressures everything and its STAB is super effective. Focus Sash Fidget can pressure us out if it carries a Poison move. Mega Venusaur completely decimates it with Sludge Bomb and takes no damage from our STAB. Necturna can presure it with super effective coverage and can pressure with Shadow Sneak.
Even if Sun is up; Mon taking 2*, and 4* damage from Fire attacks should be able to beat us?

Seriously?

0 SpA Shiinotic Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 148 SpD Scizor-Mega in Sun: 204-244 (59.3 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's on a Shiinotic. Put it at something like 125 SpA, and 252 Investment, and it's getting OHKO'd after Rocks in the Sun, without Life Orb with a HP Fire. That's a big statement to be making I think to say mon like Mega-Scizor or Syclant can brute force past this mon in the Sun, which has a reasonably good offensive typing.
 
#27
Even if Sun is up; Mon taking 2*, and 4* damage from Fire attacks should be able to beat us?

Seriously?

0 SpA Shiinotic Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 148 SpD Scizor-Mega in Sun: 204-244 (59.3 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's on a Shiinotic. Put it at something like 125 SpA, and 252 Investment, and it's getting OHKO'd after Rocks in the Sun, without Life Orb with a HP Fire. That's a big statement to be making I think to say mon like Mega-Scizor or Syclant can brute force past this mon in the Sun, which has a reasonably good offensive typing.
So your plan is to have an offensive wallbreaker that can sponge Swords Dance boosted Bullet Punches from Mega Scizor? How much defense are you putting on this thing? We're talking about mons that pressure Grass/Fairy, and unless the idea is that we're going to be Cyclohm with Kyurem-Black level offense, we simply aren't going to be taking Bullet Punches and Ice Shards well.
 
#28
It's meant to operate in the Sun, and you're suggesting that it gets no Fire Coverage, or if it does have Fire Coverage, that it can't take out a mon that's 4* Weak, while under sun?

Wildin'.
 
#29
It's meant to operate in the Sun, and you're suggesting that it gets no Fire Coverage, or if it does have Fire Coverage, that it can't take out a mon that's 4* Weak, while under sun?

Wildin'.
They weren't suggesting that at all though. They were suggesting it's highly likely that the CAP will be susceptible to getting knocked out by Bullet Punch, and there's no amount of fire coverage that will change that.
 

G-Luke

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#30
Even if Sun is up; Mon taking 2*, and 4* damage from Fire attacks should be able to beat us?

Seriously?

0 SpA Shiinotic Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 148 SpD Scizor-Mega in Sun: 204-244 (59.3 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's on a Shiinotic. Put it at something like 125 SpA, and 252 Investment, and it's getting OHKO'd after Rocks in the Sun, without Life Orb with a HP Fire. That's a big statement to be making I think to say mon like Mega-Scizor or Syclant can brute force past this mon in the Sun, which has a reasonably good offensive typing.
No matter how you dice it, Mega Scizor is at worse a check to CAP 24. There is no way CAP 23 can not be threatened by Mega Scizor when it has a STAB supereffective Techician Bullet Punch. This is incredibly important when you consider that said Pokemon is extremely potent in the rain, a playstyle that is quite literally the bane of every other weather based team. And thats just considering the fact that sun is up, as CAP 24 is supposed to do extremely well on Sand too, and Sand does not have much of anything to beat Mega Scizor.
 

snake_rattler

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#31
5.) What pokemon should pressure and/or beat Cap24 regardless of weather being active?

Magearna at the least should be a pressurizer at least without the correct coverage on this mon. It walls both STAB's, hits back SE with its STAB Flash Cannon. It is susceptible to Ground and Fire; which I'd expect to see elsewhere on a Sand or Fire team.

Charizard-Y; Charizard-Y is going to bring Sun regardless, which turns off Sand, is immune to any Ground Coverage, resists any Water coverage we may have, and is susceptible only to Electric-type while the Sun is up. Zard-Y brings Solar Beam and Focus Blast, which are both Resisted by CAP24, but the boosted Sun and resists to it's STAB's means that it's going to make a dent in any Steel, Dark, Rock, or Ground type which might want to pop in. If it's a Sun Mirrormatch, there should be no boost which allows a Grass/Fairy to beat a Flying/Fire mon.

Heatran; (Corner-case) Without Ground Coverage, or with Heatran using Air Balloon, it should be able to resist the STABs of CAP24.

Necturna; The two STABS hit no better than Neutrally, and it can pick up some dirty poison move if it wishes to OHKO.

Skarmory; Takes both STAB's well, immune to Ground, and Rock is only 1* effective. Offensive Skarms are few and far between (25% Brave Bird usage in 1760), but hit pretty hard.

Marowak-A; Ref Heatran

M-Venusaur; See Necturna. Nice and fat, and pressurizes with a Gunk Shot, and resists CAP24 Grass STAB excellently.

Tornadus-T; brings Heat wave to the table if CAP24 is in a sun team, while Hurricane can be used in place of Air Slash, especially if it's a Rain Team. Many sets also bring a Life Orb'd Sludge Wave which would take an insane level of bulk to resist with a 4* Weakness.
I agree with some of these, but some of your comments on them are misleading.

Heatran absolutely cannot counter CAP24. Sun teams already struggle with it; it should not gain momentum off of CAP24 as well.

Necturna has never picked a Poison-type move for its Sketch move. If it does pick an offensive move, it'd pick V-Create or Dragon Ascent because those hit some of its normal counters like Ferrothorn or Tomohawk. Even then, it doesn't pick an offensive move very often; it usually picks Sticky Web or Shell Smash, and even if it does pick an offensive move, it's likely to be very slow with a Choice Band.

Tornadus-T runs Flyinium Z. I've seen Assault Vest and Life Orb in the thread; it's rise in viability has come with the discovery of Flyinium Z Hurricane + Defog. Nonetheless, Torandus-T should be an adequate check.

----

Agreed that Mega Scizor is a pretty good soft check; Bullet Punch will at least 2HKO us from Utility sets. It shouldn't be a hard counter imo.

Syclant can probably check us pretty well if we don't outspeed.

Gunk Shot or Ice Beam Greninja can also hit us for super effective damage as well.
 
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#32
I apologise for the "wildin'" comment. Probably unnecessary, but it doesn't change how I feel about it. My reasoning I'll explain below;
No matter how you dice it, Mega Scizor is at worse a check to CAP 24. There is no way CAP 23 can not be threatened by Mega Scizor when it has a STAB supereffective Techician Bullet Punch. This is incredibly important when you consider that said Pokemon is extremely potent in the rain, a playstyle that is quite literally the bane of every other weather based team. And thats just considering the fact that sun is up, as CAP 24 is supposed to do extremely well on Sand too, and Sand does not have much of anything to beat Mega Scizor.
Absolutely no doubt whatsoever about it checking. I said nothing about CAP24 to be a counter either. I agree with most, but the ability to counter CAP24 it though, while it's in the Sun (applies to Syclant too)? Gotta question it. I used Shiinotic as the baseline, because 90 is hardly considered too offensive, and it's physical defense is nothing.

To counter us, it needs to be able to switch into an attack, and realistically not be 2HKO'd when it 2HKO's, -OR- it can OHKO from the switch. M-Scizor can guarantee OHKO (64 +Att) on an uninvested 59 neutral Defense vs Grass/Fairy with Bullet Punch. I highly doubt that any Sun or Sand team is going to profit overmuch from a mon with <60 Def given the gaps in its STAB offenses, unless that SpA is decent. Using 125 SpA as the nominal SpA figure, neutral natured, fully invested under Sun, M-Sciz (148 SpD) has an 87.5% chance to be OHKO'd by Hidden Power (Fire); to not have a chance under Sun, of OKHO'ing M-Sciz, it would need to have a SpA of 56 (using Life Orb+SpA Nature).

That is overly proscriptive, and that stats aren't that much better if you want to improve it to 50% chance for HP Fire under Sun to OHKO using neutral, and the paper defenses (sub 60 Phys?)

As for being under Sand, I'm not sure what a Sand Team has to offer to counter M-Sciz, other than Fire Fang Garchomp, and I can't imagine a Sand Team would complain about being able to put a dent in Sciz considering it makes a mess of TTar, uses Hippowdon as Set Up Bait, and Excadrill gets 2HKO'd if it's had time to get to +2.

I'm under no impression that a Priority Technician SE move should be able to 2HKO, but making it OHKO without a boost is way too restrictive, especially when you have to go to extreme lengths to get rid of the Hidden Power 4* Under Sun threat.
 

G-Luke

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#33
I apologise for the "wildin'" comment. Probably unnecessary, but it doesn't change how I feel about it. My reasoning I'll explain below;

Absolutely no doubt whatsoever about it checking. I said nothing about CAP24 to be a counter either. I agree with most, but the ability to counter CAP24 it though, while it's in the Sun (applies to Syclant too)? Gotta question it. I used Shiinotic as the baseline, because 90 is hardly considered too offensive, and it's physical defense is nothing.

To counter us, it needs to be able to switch into an attack, and realistically not be 2HKO'd when it 2HKO's, -OR- it can OHKO from the switch. M-Scizor can guarantee OHKO (64 +Att) on an uninvested 59 neutral Defense vs Grass/Fairy with Bullet Punch. I highly doubt that any Sun or Sand team is going to profit overmuch from a mon with <60 Def given the gaps in its STAB offenses, unless that SpA is decent. Using 125 SpA as the nominal SpA figure, neutral natured, fully invested under Sun, M-Sciz (148 SpD) has an 87.5% chance to be OHKO'd by Hidden Power (Fire); to not have a chance under Sun, of OKHO'ing M-Sciz, it would need to have a SpA of 56 (using Life Orb+SpA Nature).

That is overly proscriptive, and that stats aren't that much better if you want to improve it to 50% chance for HP Fire under Sun to OHKO using neutral, and the paper defenses (sub 60 Phys?)

As for being under Sand, I'm not sure what a Sand Team has to offer to counter M-Sciz, other than Fire Fang Garchomp, and I can't imagine a Sand Team would complain about being able to put a dent in Sciz considering it makes a mess of TTar, uses Hippowdon as Set Up Bait, and Excadrill gets 2HKO'd if it's had time to get to +2.

I'm under no impression that a Priority Technician SE move should be able to 2HKO, but making it OHKO without a boost is way too restrictive, especially when you have to go to extreme lengths to get rid of the Hidden Power 4* Under Sun threat.
We dont have to gimp stats to make Scizor threaten us, and I think you are taking things out of consideration, like hazards, sand damage, LO recoil and generally taking damage throughout the match. Even if you get in CAP 24 at perfect health, Mega Scizor's presence alone makes not want to click our STAB, and if you are willing to let your Pokemon lose well over half its health to hit Scizor, (especially when in Sun's case, you have viable switchins) I think you are doing it wron
 
#34
Mega Scizor absolutely should be a soft check and nothing more. It already walks all over Sand, so letting it beat us regardless of the weather (not even mentioning Rain) seems like a bad idea. Heatran shouldn’t even be a check. Zardy doesn’t run Focus Blast as often as you would think (leaves it vulnerable to speed creepers without Flame Charge, feel free to correct me [dont be mean about it tho]), leaving Heatran to walk all over Sun. Heatran also walks all over TTar, the main setter. While Excadrill can usually handle it, it still punches a hole in Sand.
 
#35
5.) What pokemon should pressure and/or beat Cap24 regardless of weather being active?

I think this is a moment for CAP to bring back its “oldies but goodies” creations, as many serve as effective checks to the Grass/Fairy typing and concepts listed for CAP24. I can easily see Syclant, Pyroak, and Plasmanta rising as counters to our Grass/Fairy creation. Particularly, even though it is not a Hail user, and is meant to counter rain, I’d love to see Hail teams rise as a counter to it. I’m thinking Ninetales-Alola, Sandslash-Alola, ScarfVanilluxe, Beartic, and more coming to power primarily by canceling out the traditional benefits CAP24 could get from either weather and benefitting by combining damage and speed control. Cofagrigus could be incredibly interesting as a counter by removing its ability via Mummy.

As for the M-Scizor debate, I absolutely believe it should counter us via Bullet Punch, but I believe that if we enter a circumstance that we survive that, we should absolutely be able to counter it. What does this mean? Whether through disabled, encore, priority prevention, etc., I think that if we take Bullet Punch off the table, we should be able to Hard Counter M-Scizor, especially if we decide fire moves are something we want to include.
 
#36
We dont have to gimp stats to make Scizor threaten us, and I think you are taking things out of consideration, like hazards, sand damage, LO recoil and generally taking damage throughout the match. Even if you get in CAP 24 at perfect health, Mega Scizor's presence alone makes not want to click our STAB, and if you are willing to let your Pokemon lose well over half its health to hit Scizor, (especially when in Sun's case, you have viable switchins) I think you are doing it wron
o.O

That's kind of the point of a check, right? Like I've said. All the way through - I suggested Magearna for example. But you're having a giggle if a mon that's meant to operate on a Sun Team doesn't at least have some form of access to Fire Coverage. And yes. What happens if you've got Zard-Y at <50% HP and Stealth Rocks are up. Can someone just click M-Sciz and grab 2 kills that way? M-Sciz is a threat. Not one we should be exarcerbating with CAP24 being subject to intentionally letting it get bullied about by it.

As you've said, there are other ways to beat it in Sun. But I can't condone anything that means it can capitalize on its strength against Sand Teams.

Repeat the process of reading the quoted post. A mon, 4* Weak to Fire, should NOT be countering a mon in the Sun, when the concept is to build towards Sun. I'd also question the validity of a suggestion which doubles down on it's strength against Sand Teams.

Mega-Scizor should do no more that Check us if we have the fire coverage. If a mon wishes to take Fire Coverage on a Sun Team, it's up to them, but proscribing the stats that way and lack of Fire Coverage is frankly awful.
 
#37
Mega-Scizor should do no more that Check us if we have the fire coverage. If a mon wishes to take Fire Coverage on a Sun Team, it's up to them, but proscribing the stats that way and lack of Fire Coverage is frankly awful.
I think you're way too hung up on not only Scizor, but the idea that it being x4 weak to fire in sun means that CAP needs to be able to counter it. You keep saying 'while in the sun' as if that makes any difference in the face of Bullet Punch. It doesn't matter if it were x40 weak to fire and CAP had Chlorophyll and V-Create, no amount of fire coverage, sand or sun has any bearing when it always hits first with Technician Bullet Punch.

Because of the above, your whole argument seems to be wanting to OHKO it on the switch for some reason as if that would negate it as a threat. Despite the fact that sun and sand have pokemon that could use that opportunity to double switch (assuming we don't have a pivoting move which makes this even better). In the case of sun switching to a fire type to gain a free turn, and in sand trapping it with Magnezone.

You seem to be missing the point entirely, point being that Scizor will always threaten a pokemon with Grass/Fairy typing. We cannot possibly expect to be 'uncounterable' by every single threat to sun/sand in 4 moveslots with such a poor STAB combination as a starting point. There will always be pokemon that perform well against certain teams, if Scizor remains one despite this CAP then the job of overcoming it falls to something else (such as Magnezone). It wouldn't mean CAP is a failure if it cannot do this itself.
 
#38
Before to saying my opinion, I want to remember that we are choosing the CAP24 counters outside of the weathers, so we can't count the sun/sand boosts at the moment.

About me, I think that since we are creating a pokemon that has to be complemented to the other weather members, why should CAP24 be able to defeat a pokemon that will lose by its teammates?
For the sun, there are a lots of Fire moves users like Volkraken, for the sand, Excadrill will win thanks to Swords Dance, so I think CAP24 should be at least checked by Mega Scizor
 
#39
I think you're way too hung up on not only Scizor, but the idea that it being x4 weak to fire in sun means that CAP needs to be able to counter it. You keep saying 'while in the sun' as if that makes any difference in the face of Bullet Punch. It doesn't matter if it were x40 weak to fire and CAP had Chlorophyll and V-Create, no amount of fire coverage, sand or sun has any bearing when it always hits first with Technician Bullet Punch.

Because of the above, your whole argument seems to be wanting to OHKO it on the switch for some reason as if that would negate it as a threat. Despite the fact that sun and sand have pokemon that could use that opportunity to double switch (assuming we don't have a pivoting move which makes this even better). In the case of sun switching to a fire type to gain a free turn, and in sand trapping it with Magnezone.

You seem to be missing the point entirely, point being that Scizor will always threaten a pokemon with Grass/Fairy typing. We cannot possibly expect to be 'uncounterable' by every single threat to sun/sand in 4 moveslots with such a poor STAB combination as a starting point. There will always be pokemon that perform well against certain teams, if Scizor remains one despite this CAP then the job of overcoming it falls to something else (such as Magnezone). It wouldn't mean CAP is a failure if it cannot do this itself.
Where are you getting any sort of idea I want CAP24 to Counter Scizor? What are you reading? That Scizor can threaten us with a 2HKO is fine. But there should be no way in which a mon, intended to operate in the sun should be Countered by a mon 4* Weak to sun, while the sun is up, unless that coverage is specifically not chosen by the player. M-Sciz should NOT be able to switch into an attack and OHKO with an unboosted bullet punch.

david0895 no, we are choosing the CAP24 counters regardless of whether weather is active. That means, that even if sun is up, we can be countered.
 
#40
But there should be no way in which a mon, intended to operate in the sun should be Countered by a mon 4* Weak to sun, while the sun is up, unless that coverage is specifically not chosen by the player. M-Sciz should NOT be able to switch into an attack and OHKO with an unboosted bullet punch.
You keep repeating this non sequitur as if you're giving a good reason. Why do you believe CAP being countered by Scizor in sun is something that cannot be allowed to happen? There's no reason why Scizor is particularly threatening to sun as an archetype, quite the opposite actually. It's fine to be countered by something if the rest of your team makes it a liability and a source of free turns.

It's far more important to threaten something like Heatran, which can potentially counter both CAP and the rest of the sun team.
 
#41
Why do you believe it SHOULD be countered? If the player chooses not to run Fire coverage, that's up to them. But why should we remove any ability for it to get a boost from the weather?

Using the same mentality, Heatran is already countered by Charizard-Y's Focus Blast.
 
#43
Why do you believe it SHOULD be countered?
I literally explained that in the very post you're quoting if you'd care to read it. And even if I didn't, the burden is on you to back up your statements since you're the one making the assertion.

If the player chooses not to run Fire coverage, that's up to them. But why should we remove any ability for it to get a boost from the weather?

Using the same mentality, Heatran is already countered by Charizard-Y's Focus Blast.
Another dodge? 'Charizard-Y can unreliably 2HKO Heatran' is in not an argument in support of 'CAP must be able to OHKO Scizor'.

BTW keep in mind Charizard-Y may not even be the standard sun setter if sun becomes a viable team archetype, since it can't hold Heat Rock and takes up the mega slot that could be used for Charizard-X or Houndoom.
 

Deck Knight

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#44
Mega Scizor will always be a check because in all likelihood Tech Bullet Punch can 2HKO. If CAP's only fire move is Sun Weather Ball or HP Fire, then Scizor largely moves into Counter terrirory as Sand CAP is unlikely to run HP Fire and won't OHKO with Sand Weather Ball.

I don't think Mega Scizor should counter CAP under any circumstance because M-Scizor is fairly threatening to Sand, or at least Tyranitar (it can somewhat stall SS turns out vs. Non-SD Excadrill.)

Part of these check/counter conundrums is that by its very nature executing this concept assumes two vastly different needs for CAP's sets to address. Some of these needs overlap and consist primarily of a coverage move choice down the line.

As such I think to avoid a whole lot of muddle or 3 separate lists (one for sun, sand, and no weather) we just make two, a set of general Pokemon we want to threaten and Pokemon we want to conditionally threaten, and the same for Pokemon we want to generally checked by and conditional checks / counters. [The conditions would not be specified, just that we do not absolutely need every iteration of CAP to address them.]

I think we'll drive ourselves batty with analysis paralysis otherwise.
 
#45
I don't think Mega Scizor should counter CAP under any circumstance because M-Scizor is fairly threatening to Sand, or at least Tyranitar (it can somewhat stall SS turns out vs. Non-SD Excadrill.)
Thing is does having this as a requirement not completely strongarm CAP into an offensive set of Fairy/Grass/Fire/Ground moves? There isn't really any other way to deal with Scizor (unlike say Steel/Flying types where electric moves, particularly Volt Switch, are possible tools). Ground seems indespensible, on sun at any rate, for SE coverage to compensate the STABs being walled by Steel, Fire and Poison.

Guess it could drop the Grass STAB but Solarbeam was supposed to be one of the only selling points of this typing relating to the concept.

But anyway I'm straying from topic again.

5.) What pokemon should pressure and/or beat Cap24 regardless of weather being active?

I think Scizor should definitely fall into this category since there's simply nothing we can do about taking >50% from Technician Bullet Punch regardless of weather. A vulnerability to steel-types lacking a ground weakness is simply something CAP is stuck with given its typing, IMO we shouldn't compromise its ability to excel at other jobs in order to try to paper over this.

The main concern about Scizor is that it might do well against sand. But I think that's something sand can address with other team members better suited for the job. Even among the staples, you'll find Excadrill is not explicitly weak to Scizor, and even Tyranitar has the bulk to sponge a hit and is known to run fire coverage. Basically I don't feel Scizor is something to be catered for specifically with this CAP.
 

Drapionswing

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#46
It's time for me to post a threatlist based on the discussion that has taken place thus far in the thread.

Pokemon we want to beat:

Sun:
Heatran, Blacephalon, Crawdaunt, Mega Latios, Pajantom, Zygarde,

Sand:
Heatran, Celesteela, Landorus-T, Tapu Bulu, Tomohawk

Pokemon we want to pressure/threaten:
Mega Mawille, Mega Charizard X, Cawmodore, Ash Greninja, Kartana, Magearna, Marowak-Alola

Pokemon we want to check Cap24:
Fire-Types: Mega Charizard Y, Volcarona, Marowak-Alola
Steel Types: Mega Scizor, Excadrill
Poison Types: Plasmanta, Fidgit, Mollux(?)
Priority Users: Kitsunoh, Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Syclant, Cawmodore

Pokemon we want to counter Cap24:
Mega Venusaur
Pyroak
Toxapex
Chansey

While this threatlist may look slightly lacking, please note that there is still time for changes to be made to allow us to further develop this list in any way the community sees fit. If you feel that I've missed something, or I've placed something incorrectly please do feel free to mention it in the thread with an explanation as to why you feel the way you do.

Also a heads up that this is your 24 hour warning, however this time may be extended.
 
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#47
Since CAP24 needs of the Ground coverage to beat Heatran, most of the Poison types will fail to check it (only Fidgit and scarf Plasmanta can do this)
Also, I'm still against everything that will support a Fire coverage (Cawmodore and Bulu) for the same motivation that I said before
 

snake_rattler

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#48
If we're placing Mega Scizor as a check, we're not making it always OHKO with Bullet Punch, right? I mean, obviously Bullet Punch should be doing a lot to CAP24, but I don't think it should be OHKOing CAP24 with its utility set. That'd be laughably small physical bulk that CAP24 would like for stomaching Earthquakes from Landorus-T and Tapu Bulu. Mega Scizor certainly should be able to get rid of a weakened CAP24 no problem, but to be a surefire check would be really difficult to work with in the Stats stage.

Are we sure we want Toxapex to be a 100% counter? I'm all for having a blanket check be a counter, but powerful Ground-type coverage would be very helpful for beating Heatran and Blacephalon in one slot, and I don't want that option taken away solely because of, "oh, it beats Toxapex." It's important that Heatran and Blacephalon don't make us switch out because if they do, something's going to switch into Sun-boosted STAB or Earth Power or Shadow Ball. That's not good. A similar situation is with Pyroak, if we want Sand Weather Ball, I don't want that option taken away because of, "oh that beats Pyroak." I can see both of these Pokemon being counters on a moveset-to-moveset basis, but complete 100% counters seems a little restrictive given the concept and what we want to hit.

Also, Marowak-A appears twice on the list, once in the pressure list and once in the checks list. Is that intentional?
 
#49
While I agree with Snake wholeheartedly, I just am going to nip this in the bud now.
252 SpA Base 127 Special Attack Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 110-130 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sand damage and Black Sludge recovery (without weather its still p much a 3HKO always)

As you all can see, Earth Power doesn't do shit. Toxapex can simply either switch out into, say, Chansey, or just spam Recover until we realize we aren't going to win and it forces us out. For comparison, here is a Xurkitree using Earth Power (I know it doesn't get it but shush).

252 SpA Xurkitree Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 136-162 (44.8 - 53.4%) -- 32.4% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Black Sludge recovery (Without Sand it basically is a certain 3HKO)

Xurkitree, the Pokemon with the highest Special Attack (barring megas) in the game, cannot OHKO with Earth Power. If Xurkitree can't even OHKO, I have absolutely no worry that Earth Power on CAP24 is going to beat Toxapex. I say Earth Power because it's the most powerful special Ground-type move there is. Obviously, HP Ground doesn't do anything (doesn't even OHKO BLACE WTF).

Pyroak loses to Sand Weather Ball though, so that's a bit of a problem. Perhaps it'd be a soft counter/hard check?
 

Mx

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#50
It's time for me to post a threatlist based on the discussion that has taken place thus far in the thread.

Pokemon we want to beat:

Sun:
Heatran, Blacephalon, Crawdaunt, Mega Latios, Pajantom, Zygarde,

Sand:
Heatran, Celesteela, Landorus-T, Tapu Bulu, Tomohawk

Pokemon we want to pressure/threaten:
Mega Mawille, Mega Charizard X, Cawmodore, Ash Greninja, Kartana, Magearna, Marowak-Alola

Pokemon we want to check Cap24:
Fire-Types: Mega Charizard Y, Volcarona, Marowak-Alola
Steel Types: Mega Scizor, Excadrill
Poison Types: Plasmanta, Fidgit, Mollux(?)
Priority Users: Kitsunoh, Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Syclant, Cawmodore

Pokemon we want to counter Cap24:
Mega Venusaur
Pyroak
Toxapex
Chansey
I agree with most of this list, however I'd like to bring attention to the few thing I'd like to point out

Celesteela: I agree that we should not be a sitting duck against it, but I'd suggest that it is moved to "mons we want to threaten/pressure", as while being able to reliably beat Celesteela would be ideal, our typing doesn't lend itself to this task at all, as even if we weight enough to bring Heavy Slam's power down to 40, it will still a decent amount of damage. This, alongside the threat of a super-effective Flamethrower, means that it's unlikely that we'll be able to switch into it more than a few times per game.
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (40 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 78-92 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- 71.9% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Celesteela Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 144-170 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Therefore, we will most likely require a additional teammate to be able to switch into Celesteela more easily, regardless of how strong our coverage could be. Some teammates to consider would be Zapdos, which can also serve as a Hawlucha counter, and Magnezone, which could trap any Steel-Type that threatens us.

Toxapex:
Are we sure we want Toxapex to be a 100% counter? I'm all for having a blanket check be a counter, but powerful Ground-type coverage would be very helpful for beating Heatran and Blacephalon in one slot, and I don't want that option taken away solely because of, "oh, it beats Toxapex." It's important that Heatran and Blacephalon don't make us switch out because if they do, something's going to switch into Sun-boosted STAB or Earth Power or Shadow Ball. That's not good.
Even if we give CAP 24 Earth Power, the match-up against Pex would still be unfavorable to us (252 SpA Life Orb Stratagem Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 135-161 (44.5 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery). Not only that, but with Knock Off, Pex should be able to take away items such as LO and Specs, which would mean that to be able to have even a chance to deal with it we need to have a astronomical SpA stat (252 SpA Deoxys-Attack Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 142-168 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery. That is coming from a 180 base SpA, but it still only has a small chance to 2HKO).

Magearna: Should be moved to Steel-type checks, there's no way we'll be able to beat AV sets 1v1 (252 SpA Deoxys-Attack Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 112-132 (30.8 - 36.3%. Again, this is coming from a very unrealistic 180 SpA, and yet, it barely makes a scratch on the Artificial Pokemon) -- 54% chance to 3HKO) And it usually packs a super-effective STAB to be able to deal with us.

Poison-types: I have to agree with David0895, dealing with Heatran and being checked by things like Mollux and Plasmanta is kinda contradictory, as they require similar coverage.
 
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