CaP 24 Prevo - Part 1 - Typing Discussion

[G-Luke]

I'll do one more post to try to convince people to at least consider Grass/Ghost.

I think that this typing would allow for a more interesting design for the preevolution. If we keep Grass/Fairy, the prevo will probably end up as basically just a small version of Jumbao. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, it's just not that interesting IMO.

The typing would fit really well with the lore behind Jumbao's design. The root rope thing around its waist is a "Shimenawa" which, according to the artist is "hung around sacred objects like trees or rocks and wards off evil spirits that can inhabit them". So the lore given for Jumbao's design specifically mentions that spirits can inhabit trees and that the Shimenawa is placed around it to ward them off. So the prevo could be inhabited by an evil spirit and that is why the Shimenawa was placed around it in the first place.

And lastly, I think the ghost typing would reinforce the fairy typing of Jumbao. Jumbao's design doesn't really scream "fairy" to me. Fairy seems like a sort of opposite to the ghost type. Obviously there's the whole Clefable - Gengar connection, but beside that, ghosts feel more malevolent, sinister, evil, and corrupt while fairies are more carefree, malevolent, good, and pure. I think a good way to draw those characteristics out of Jumbao would be to contrast it with its prevo. The fairy typing would make more sense because the evolution from pre-Jumbao to Jumbao would represent a purification and transition from an evil spirit to something that is good natured.

TL;DR: Grass/Ghost is more interesting, it fits the lore very well, and it reinforces the fairy typing of Jumbao.

You still have not explained how we can justify Jumbao's lack of Ghost type moves (sans Shadow Ball) and flavor moves for ghost types

 

[pastafari]

I'll do one more post to try to convince people to at least consider Grass/Ghost.

I think that this typing would allow for a more interesting design for the preevolution. If we keep Grass/Fairy, the prevo will probably end up as basically just a small version of Jumbao. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, it's just not that interesting IMO.

The typing would fit really well with the lore behind Jumbao's design. The root rope thing around its waist is a "Shimenawa" which, according to the artist is "hung around sacred objects like trees or rocks and wards off evil spirits that can inhabit them". So the lore given for Jumbao's design specifically mentions that spirits can inhabit trees and that the Shimenawa is placed around it to ward them off. So the prevo could be inhabited by an evil spirit and that is why the Shimenawa was placed around it in the first place.

And lastly, I think the ghost typing would reinforce the fairy typing of Jumbao. Jumbao's design doesn't really scream "fairy" to me. Fairy seems like a sort of opposite to the ghost type. Obviously there's the whole Clefable - Gengar connection, but beside that, ghosts feel more malevolent, sinister, evil, and corrupt while fairies are more carefree, malevolent, good, and pure. I think a good way to draw those characteristics out of Jumbao would be to contrast it with its prevo. The fairy typing would make more sense because the evolution from pre-Jumbao to Jumbao would represent a purification and transition from an evil spirit to something that is good natured.

TL;DR: Grass/Ghost is more interesting, it fits the lore very well, and it reinforces the fairy typing of Jumbao.

We can - and I expect we do - add Fairy elements for Jumbao by the Ability and the Pokedex entries, and the typing would be justificated. That, and the movepool has quite good support options around it's benevolent nature.

While I don't dislike your idea of the contrast between the prevo and Jumbao, it is our big guy's movepool the thing that restricts us a bit. For a Grass/Ghost mon, I'd say Forest Curse is a must, but Jumbao doesn't have access to it.

I think we are limited to Grass/Fairy and Grass

 

[FriesforNapkins]

Wanna throw out Grass/Ground as another possible option, as I think it makes about as much flavor sense as pure Grass. Jumbao has four gigantic root feet and a belt made of roots. If the prevo is favored of going in the direction of being Jumbao's immature plant-life stage, it makes sense to me for it to be rooted(or at least lower to and much more dependent on the ground) and have easier access to Ground type traits.

That said I'm much more in favor of plain Grass and Grass/Fairy

 

[Zephias]

I really cannot disagree more about the Grass/Ghost thing, especially seeing as the reasoning seems to be the Shimenawa. Allow me to share a bit of shinto culture with you all.

Shimenawa are knotted ropes used to delimit the separation between mundane and spiritual. They're used in Torii gates and rooftops mostly, and sometimes trees. This is not to protect the tree from possession or spirits, it's either a) to delimit the area of a temple or b) to mark the tree as one that should not be cut because it's inhabited by Kodama and cutting it can anger the gods.

In addition, as I noticed while talking to Sunfished over Discord, most Ghost-types in Pokemon have more notably western influences. Gengar=Shadow, Banette=Voodoo Doll/Puppet, Cofagrigus=Mummy, Duskull line=Grim reaper. More eastern inspirations, even creatures that would fit Ghost in the spooky dangerous sense like Mawile's inspiration of a Futa-Kuchi-Onna are fairies.

There's no "purifying the spirit" in a shimenawa. Heck, if anything it points out to Grass/Fairy being a stronger choice.

On a more serious note, Grass and Grass/Fairy sound about right.

 

[Zephias]

According to the current Oxford dictionary, this particular use of ward would mean "to guard, to protect". Not to purify. Your wikipedia article also confirms what I was saying of Shimenawa being used to delimit sacred areas.

You note that the talk about yorishiro also very clearly point out that the trees are inhabited by Kodama and cutting them was to bring misfortune, not anything about preventing possession, purifying the Kodama. Which makes sense since Kodama are benevolent spirits.

If you're willing to fly all the way to Colombia and come to the local Tenrikyo temple so that I can have Takumasa explain this to you personally, I will gladly take you to the source of this explanation. The wikipedia article is not wrong, you just didn't read it correctly.

EDIT: As an addition, and as confirmed by the Wikipedia article for Yorishiro, the shimenawa is used to make the sacredness of the object manifest.

 

[YellowAdminSilver]

Hi, this thread is most definitely on track =)

Personally, I'm much more comfortable with vanilla Grass than Grass-Fairy, even tho the latter is probably gonna end up taking the cake. As several people have stated, the Grass aspect of Jumbao is much more evident than the Fairy aspect, and I feel like the prevo should reflect that if the design is to be consistent.
Furhtermore, Fairy is not a common typing for LCs, so I feel like Grass/Fairy might feel a bit inconsistent. Granted, Morellul and Cottonee set a bit of a precedent, and G/F is by no means a bad choice. It's just in my head pre-Jumbao is much more tree-ish than pixie-ish.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

Frostbiyt lets be honest mate, the arguments you've presented, although in depth, don't particularly stand up well. We'll see if it's slated, but at least recognise that plenty of people have disagreed, while not much (anyone?) has actually supported the idea. Dead horse, springs to mind, slightly.

I support Grass, Fairy, and Grass/Fairy.

 

[Frostbiyt]

In order to declutter this thread, I've deleted my posts and put them all here, since there were some good arguments brought up against my idea.

Old posts(for context)

In reverse chronological order:

Although one person has agreed so far, I'm under no delusions that my idea will get voted in. I just like giving unconventional suggestions that start discussion. And you guys may not believe this because of how stubbornly I've defended my position, but I will change my mind if I'm given a convincing argument.

Edit: I will also edit my post at the top of the page to fix the issues that Zephias has brought up

-----

Congratulations on quoting wikipedia at me. Allow me to use your own post against you. According to the current Oxford dictionary, this particular use of ward would mean "to guard, to protect". Not to purify. Your wikipedia article also confirms what I was saying of Shimenawa being used to delimit sacred areas.

You note that the talk about yorishiro also very clearly point out that the trees are inhabited by Kodama and cutting them was to bring misfortune, not anything about preventing possession, purifying the Kodama. Which makes sense since Kodama are benevolent spirits.

If you're willing to fly all the way to Colombia and come to the local Tenrikyo temple so that I can have Takumasa explain this to you personally, I will gladly take you to the source of this explanation.

Where did I say that "ward" meant to purify? "Shimenawa are lengths of laid rice straw or hemp rope used for ritual purification in the Shinto religion." While I don't know exactly what Shinto purification rituals specifically entail, I'd imagine they are a ritual used to purify a person or object through the removal of a malevolent spirit or something similar. While this ritual may not be performed on trees in the real world, I don't think it's much of a stretch to imagine this occurring in a world where some trees are conscious beings. So if the prevo is a being inhabited by evil spirits and then the process of evolution represents the purification ritual, then the Shimenawa now represents that Jumbao is now inhabited by benevolent spirits.

So unless I'm way off in my understanding of what a "purification ritual" is, then I think it makes sense to combine two of the aspects of what a Shimenawa is used for a Pokemon that exhibits characteristics of both a tree and a conscious, humanoid being.

Edit: I'll admit, you've made good points and got me to slightly change tack in this post.

-----

I really cannot disagree more about the Grass/Ghost thing, especially seeing as the reasoning seems to be the Shimenawa. Allow me to share a bit of shinto culture with you all.

Shimenawa are knotted ropes used to delimit the separation between mundane and spiritual. They're used in Torii gates and rooftops mostly, and sometimes trees. This is not to protect the tree from possession or spirits, it's either a) to delimit the area of a temple or b) to mark the tree as one that should not be cut because it's inhabited by Kodama and cutting it can anger the gods.

There's no "purifying the spirit" in a shimenawa. Heck, if anything it points out to Grass/Fairy being a stronger choice.

On a more serious note, Grass and Grass/Fairy sound about right.

I'll admit I know practically nothing about the Shinto religion, I was just basing it off of what Pipotchi said when he submitted his artwork. Now, you may be an expert on Shinto or whatever, and if you are then I'll concede my reasoning is faulty if you can also prove to me that this wikipedia article is also wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimenawa
Some excerpts:

"Shimenawa (標縄・注連縄・七五三縄, "enclosing rope") are lengths of laid rice straw or hemp[1] rope used for ritual purification in the Shinto religion. "

"A space bound by shimenawa often indicates a sacred or pure space, such as that of a Shinto shrine."

"Shimenawa are believed to act as a ward against evil spirits"

"They are also used around yorishiro (objects capable of attracting spirits, hence inhabited by spirits). These notably include certain trees, in which case the inhabiting spirits are called kodama, and cutting down these trees is thought to bring misfortune."

"A variation of the shimenawa is used in sumo wrestling by yokozuna (grand champions) during their entrance ceremonies to denote their rank. This is because the yokozuna is seen as a living yorishiro (formally shintai), and as such is inhabited by a spirit."

So If you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it.

-----

We can - and I expect we do - add Fairy elements for Jumbao by the Ability and the Pokedex entries, and the typing would be justificated. That, and the movepool has quite good support options around it's benevolent nature.

While I don't dislike your idea of the contrast between the prevo and Jumbao, it is our big guy's movepool the thing that restricts us a bit. For a Grass/Ghost mon, I'd say Forest Curse is a must, but Jumbao doesn't have access to it.

I think we are limited to Grass/Fairy and Grass

I just don't really see the movepool as that big of a deal lore wise. Flavor abilities are seen every time you go to select an ability and can give a bit of lore to the pokemon and while not that easy to just stumble across, pokedex entries are a good way to give a concentrated dose of lore in a succinct manner. Move pools are neither succinct nor are they commonly seen. Most of these flavor moves will be relegated to the "usually useless moves" section on Showdown. How often do you go there to get a sense of flavor about the pokemon? But that's just my opinion.

Edit: If you're willing to stretch a bit, Shore Up is a move that only ghost types know even though it is not a ghost move. Over half of all ghost pokemon learn Psych Up and nearly half learn Magic Coat.

-----

You still have not explained how we can justify Jumbao's lack of Ghost type moves (sans Shadow Ball) and flavor moves for ghost types

I think Jumbao's lack of ghost moves(besides shadow ball) could be easily explained as it not being able to perform those moves as the spirit that once inhabited it has left. The real problem IMO is the lack of ghost moves for the prevo. Maybe the justification could be that the spirit is tapping into pre-Jumbao's strength for attacks rather than its own and so it has a hard time using ghost type attacks. Ghost flavor could also be added in the form of a flavor ability for pre-Jumbao such as cursed body. I'll admit that the type doesn't fit well movepool-wise though.

Edit: Or maybe pre-Jumbao still has a sense of honor even though it is possessed by an evil spirit and it resists using those moves or something like that.

-----

I'll do one more post to try to convince people to at least consider Grass/Ghost.

I think that this typing would allow for a more interesting design for the preevolution. If we keep Grass/Fairy, the prevo will probably end up as basically just a small version of Jumbao. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, it's just not that interesting IMO.

The typing would fit really well with the lore behind Jumbao's design. The root rope thing around its waist is a "Shimenawa" which, according to the artist is "hung around sacred objects like trees or rocks and wards off evil spirits that can inhabit them". So the lore given for Jumbao's design specifically mentions that spirits can inhabit trees and that the Shimenawa is placed around it to ward them off. So the prevo could be inhabited by an evil spirit and that is why the Shimenawa was placed around it in the first place.

And lastly, I think the ghost typing would reinforce the fairy typing of Jumbao. Jumbao's design doesn't really scream "fairy" to me. Fairy seems like a sort of opposite to the ghost type. Obviously there's the whole Clefable - Gengar connection, but beside that, ghosts feel more malevolent, sinister, evil, and corrupt while fairies are more carefree, malevolent, good, and pure. I think a good way to draw those characteristics out of Jumbao would be to contrast it with its prevo. The fairy typing would make more sense because the evolution from pre-Jumbao to Jumbao would represent a purification and transition from an evil spirit to something that is good natured.

TL;DR: Grass/Ghost is more interesting, it fits the lore very well, and it reinforces the fairy typing of Jumbao.

 

[Zephias]

You've been given convincing arguments and I've attempted to point where your interpretation is wrong. You just refuse to acknowledge them.

Moving on to more important matters, the reason I believe Grass/Fairy to be superior fluff-wise is twofold.

First, fluff-wise we're talking about a sumo sacred tree inspired by a Kodama tree, or a sacred mountain god-spirit tree. I feel like having a one-stager, the image of the big Kodama tree being home/caretaker of many smaller prevo Kodama pokemon is quite a strong visual. And for that, Grass/Fairy is significantly more appropriate.

Second, it would allow us to reinforce the Fairy type in Jumbao. It's no news to anyone that Jumbao looks like a Grass/Fighting maybe more than Grass/Fairy. Having a smaller fairy prevo that lives on the big tree evo and becomes stronger and bigger to protect the congregation would allow us to reinforce the Fairy-type in Jumbao in a way that no other stage in this process would allow us to do.

Finally, is there any fluff that mono Grass gives us that we don't get with Grass/Fairy? To warrant the loss of the additional fluff and connection given by the Fairy-type?

 

[Frostbiyt]

You've been given convincing arguments and I've attempted to point where your interpretation is wrong. You just refuse to acknowledge them.

Moving on to more important matters, the reason I believe Grass/Fairy to be superior fluff-wise is twofold.

First, fluff-wise we're talking about a sumo sacred tree inspired by a Kodama tree, or a sacred mountain god-spirit tree. I feel like having a one-stager, the image of the big Kodama tree being home/caretaker of many smaller prevo Kodama pokemon is quite a strong visual. And for that, Grass/Fairy is significantly more appropriate.

Second, it would allow us to reinforce the Fairy type in Jumbao. It's no news to anyone that Jumbao looks like a Grass/Fighting maybe more than Grass/Fairy. Having a smaller fairy prevo that lives on the big tree evo and becomes stronger and bigger to protect the congregation would allow us to reinforce the Fairy-type in Jumbao in a way that no other stage in this process would allow us to do.

Finally, is there any fluff that mono Grass gives us that we don't get with Grass/Fairy? To warrant the loss of the additional fluff and connection given by the Fairy-type?

Yeah, I was just starting to work on a post saying that I'd done a bit more research myself and between what you said and what I've read, I've been convinced that it doesn't really fit. I looked more into the purification rituals and they aren't really about removing evil spirits, they seem to be used to cleanse the spirit and appease the Kami. I was imagining something more like an exorcism, but that's not very accurate. I was then thinking Fairy/Dark might work better with the idea of ritual purification as Dark is the "evil" type in Japan, but since Jumbao doesn't get a single dark move I decided not to look into that idea farther.

Also, I acknowledged all of the arguments against my position, which is why I pursued a different angle after you showed that my original understanding was flawed. You never responded to that, so I did my own research and found that it didn't fit well either.

As far as other people's ideas, I do like Grass/Fighting, even though it makes the Fairy connection with Jumbao a bit weaker. It does have good physical grass and fighting STABs. A pure Fairy prevo could be a good way of reinforcing Jumbao's Fairy type. It could be a nature spirit that is not currently inhabiting a tree, but goes on to do so when it evolves. I also like the idea of a Grass/Ground. It has the problem of the lack of movepool, but it does fit the sandstorm idea along with what FriesforNapkins said originally. And of course Grass or Grass/Fairy would be fine, although a bit boring.

 

[Drew]

Yeah, I was just starting to work on a post saying that I'd done a bit more research myself and between what you said and what I've read, I've been convinced that it doesn't really fit. I looked more into the purification rituals and they aren't really about removing evil spirits, they seem to be used to cleanse the spirit and appease the Kami. I was imagining something more like an exorcism, but that's not very accurate. I was then thinking Fairy/Dark might work better with the idea of ritual purification as Dark is the "evil" type in Japan, but since Jumbao doesn't get a single dark move I decided not to look into that idea farther.

Also, I acknowledged all of the arguments against my position, which is why I pursued a different angle after you showed that my original understanding was flawed. You never responded to that, so I did my own research and found that it didn't fit well either.

As far as other people's ideas, I do like Grass/Fighting, even though it makes the Fairy connection with Jumbao a bit weaker. It does have good physical grass and fighting STABs. A pure Fairy prevo could be a good way of reinforcing Jumbao's Fairy type. It could be a nature spirit that is not currently inhabiting a tree, but goes on to do so when it evolves. I also like the idea of a Grass/Ground. It has the problem of the lack of movepool, but it does fit the sandstorm idea along with what FriesforNapkins said originally. And of course Grass or Grass/Fairy would be fine, although a bit boring.

Let me restate something: the primary purpose of the CAP Prevo Project is Flavor, and as such, using boringness as an argument against a typing to me just bolster's that typing's argument even more. There is no reason to go anything but Grass or Grass/Fairy to me other than "wouldn't it be cool and/or interesting tho?" I don't mean to call your arguments invalid, but check our movepool and that of every other Pokemon in existence. bar weird gimmicks, no Pokemon learns only 1 move of its typing, certainly not a TM, and certainly not an 80 Base Power move.

 

[Mowtom]

Let me restate something: bar weird gimmicks, no Pokemon learns only 1 move of its typing, certainly not a TM, and certainly not an 80 Base Power move.

Matching moves found in learnset for Azumarill:
Charm, Play Rough

I agree with your point, and it's true that Play Rough is not a TM and Charm technically counts too. But be careful with such broad statements.

 

[Frostbiyt]

Let me restate something: the primary purpose of the CAP Prevo Project is Flavor, and as such, using boringness as an argument against a typing to me just bolster's that typing's argument even more. There is no reason to go anything but Grass or Grass/Fairy to me other than "wouldn't it be cool and/or interesting tho?" I don't mean to call your arguments invalid, but check our movepool and that of every other Pokemon in existence. bar weird gimmicks, no Pokemon learns only 1 move of its typing, certainly not a TM, and certainly not an 80 Base Power move.

Well, first I'd like to point you to the part of my post you quoted where I gave up my position on Grass/Ghost: " I've been convinced that it doesn't really fit"

Anyways, the typing doesn't have to remain the same in order to add flavor. In fact, I think that keeping the same typing would add little to no flavor. It was a small tree inhabited by a nature spirit and then evolved into a bigger tree inhabited by a nature spirit. Pure grass would at least show a transition from a regular tree to a Fairy tree. I called them boring because I just don't think they add much to the lore. Pure Fairy though I think would be a good pick for the reason I said in my previous post.

 

[snake]

Well, first I'd like to point you to the part of my post you quoted where I gave up my position on Grass/Ghost: " I've been convinced that it doesn't really fit"

Anyways, the typing doesn't have to remain the same in order to add flavor. In fact, I think that keeping the same typing would add little to no flavor. It was a small tree inhabited by a nature spirit and then evolved into a bigger tree inhabited by a nature spirit. Pure grass would at least show a transition from a regular tree to a Fairy tree. I called them boring because I just don't think they add much to the lore. Pure Fairy though I think would be a good pick for the reason I said in my previous post.

Does it need to show a transition of some sort with typing though? There are so many ways to make art show a transition than forcing it through typing. Would Deino be more flavorful if it gained Dark-type upon evolving into Zweilous instead of being Dark / Dragon initially (or gaining Dark-type on Hydreigon)? Is Chinchou evolving into Lanturn not very flavorful because Chinchou isn't pure Water-type evolving into Lanturn? Was Cottonee to Whimsicott evolution somehow more flavorful in Gen 5 (when Whimsicott gained Flying-type) and then became less flavorful in Gen 6 because they both got Fairy-type? All of these designs are interesting, show a transition, and they don't change type.

I'm not buying the argument that "keeping the same typing adds little to no flavor" - in fact, I think it's really interesting to see how the artists get around the challenge of showing the growth of a Pokemon evolution line without having the type change to automatically show a difference.

 

[Frostbiyt]

Does it need to show a transition of some sort with typing though? There are so many ways to make art show a transition than forcing it through typing. Would Deino be more flavorful if it gained Dark-type upon evolving into Zweilous instead of being Dark / Dragon initially (or gaining Dark-type on Hydreigon)? Is Chinchou evolving into Lanturn not very flavorful because Chinchou isn't pure Water-type evolving into Lanturn? Was Cottonee to Whimsicott evolution somehow more flavorful in Gen 5 (when Whimsicott gained Flying-type) and then became less flavorful in Gen 6 because they both got Fairy-type? All of these designs are interesting, show a transition, and they don't change type.

I'm not buying the argument that "keeping the same typing adds little to no flavor" - in fact, I think it's really interesting to see how the artists get around the challenge of showing the growth of a Pokemon evolution line without having the type change to automatically show a difference.

Changing types through evolution doesn't really add flavor by itself. Maybe a more accurate notion would be that changing type adds more possibility for flavor than just keeping the same type. Just making Deino pure dragon on it's own doesn't add any flavor, but it allows more creative possibility to explain why it gains the dark type when it evolves. And according to bulbapedia, "Whimsicott is a dual Grass/Fairy Pokémon introduced in Generation V. Prior to Generation VI, it was a pure Grass-type Pokémon."

 

[Okamu]

Changing types through evolution doesn't really add flavor by itself. Maybe a more accurate notion would be that changing type adds more possibility for flavor than just keeping the same type. Just making Deino pure dragon on it's own doesn't add any flavor, but it allows more creative possibility to explain why it gains the dark type when it evolves. And according to bulbapedia, "Whimsicott is a dual Grass/Fairy Pokémon introduced in Generation V. Prior to Generation VI, it was a pure Grass-type Pokémon."

Hmm... I wonder about that Deino example. When I look at a mon's typing for its flavor, and it gains/loses a typing, my first thought isn't "Wow, what could have possibly happened." It's "Well, what does the dex have to say about it?" I feel you might be misattributing some of the general lore behind mons to the typing itself as opposed to the dex entries or in-game dialogue that tend to present the lore. In my opinion, typing (and to some extent ability) changes don't create new flavor, but instead come as a logical consequence of some other aspect of a mon's lore. Why is Scizor Steel and Scyther Flying? Metal Coat. The same goes for Onix and Steelix. Nincada to Shedinja and Ninjask? One is the decidedly dead husk of Nincada, while the other has wings now.

In sum, I think we're free to dispute what does or doesn't create flavor until the cows come home, but what we need to ask ourselves is does Grass do anything that Grass/Fairy doesn't. The obvious argument is that the gained Fairy type implies some greater spiritual endowment or mystical sense, but ultimately, if it's not in the dex entry, it's probably just going to generate confusion. As people have already said, Jumbao doesn't scream Fairy type as much as the other members of the type do. I think that means in order to accentuate that Fairy typing, we should make it stick throughout the line, using the Pre-evo design to help sell the Fairy flavor a bit more, without going overboard to the point we lose Jumbao's original intent. Using a pure Grass type for the Pre-evo and then having the evolution gain Fairy without explanation in Jumbao's dex and without the clear presence of the Fairy type is, I think, just going to make people ask more questions (in a negative light) about the Fairy type, than provide answers.

 

[Frostbiyt]

Hmm... I wonder about that Deino example. When I look at a mon's typing for its flavor, and it gains/loses a typing, my first thought isn't "Wow, what could have possibly happened." It's "Well, what does the dex have to say about it?" I feel you might be misattributing some of the general lore behind mons to the typing itself as opposed to the dex entries or in-game dialogue that tend to present the lore. In my opinion, typing (and to some extent ability) changes don't create new flavor, but instead come as a logical consequence of some other aspect of a mon's lore. Why is Scizor Steel and Scyther Flying? Metal Coat. The same goes for Onix and Steelix. Nincada to Shedinja and Ninjask? One is the decidedly dead husk of Nincada, while the other has wings now.

In sum, I think we're free to dispute what does or doesn't create flavor until the cows come home, but what we need to ask ourselves is does Grass do anything that Grass/Fairy doesn't. The obvious argument is that the gained Fairy type implies some greater spiritual endowment or mystical sense, but ultimately, if it's not in the dex entry, it's probably just going to generate confusion. As people have already said, Jumbao doesn't scream Fairy type as much as the other members of the type do. I think that means in order to accentuate that Fairy typing, we should make it stick throughout the line, using the Pre-evo design to help sell the Fairy flavor a bit more, without going overboard to the point we lose Jumbao's original intent. Using a pure Grass type for the Pre-evo and then having the evolution gain Fairy without explanation in Jumbao's dex and without the clear presence of the Fairy type is, I think, just going to make people ask more questions (in a negative light) about the Fairy type, than provide answers.

Like I said, changing type alone doesn't add flavor, it just opens up more possibilities to add flavor or to highlight certain aspects of the pokemon. So yes I agree, typing doesn't inherently bring lore with it. I also mostly agree with your assessment of pure Grass. Following on from your point about Jumbao not looking much like a Fairy Pokemon, I think the prevo should be pure Fairy in order to emphasize the fairy aspects of the Jumbao line. This would allow for the design to have more a lot of freedom. One possible route to go with the design is for it to be the nature spirit that goes on to inhabit the Baobab tree seen in Jumbao's design when it evolves.

 

[Zephias]

I disagree. Needless secondary types don't add flavour, they muddle it. This doesn't need to be Fighting type to look like a sumo because it already looks like a sumo. It doesn't need to change types for what honestly feels like just because.

Furthermore, whenever a pokemon changes secondary types it's linked to some sort of massive biological change (which is why most of those who do are bugs). I don't see Bao doing that because there's no need for bao to do that. It's a tree. Trees sprout from seeds and grow until they're big trees.

I agree with Drew in that your reasoning seems to be "this would be more interesting tho" and I've already stated my thoughts about Jumbao really benefitting from a fairy prevo to benefit its fairy type. There is no need to go off on a tangent when a very fluff-appropriate answer is right there.

Also, having it start Grass/Fairy does add fluff.

A) it means this creature is born a fae or spirit.
B) it means it does not undergo radical changes in its evolution that change its body composition or behaviour.
C) It affects the dex entries for smolbao towards a more whimsical approach.
D) As already stated it reinforces the fairy aspect in Jumbao.

Having Grass/Fighting will make everyone ask why on earth the sumo tree evo isn't also fighting.

On the Grass side I could see the transition as Smolbao evolving when consecrated. Evolves at full happiness at day while holding a cleanse tag? Something like that could be fun but I still prefer keeping the type.

 

[DHR-107]

Erm... OK this got massively out of hand overnight. Only two options have had multiple people support so those are the things that will be going to polls...

Grass/Fairy
Grass

Poll will be up shortly