CAP 25 - Part 4 - Secondary Typings Discussion

[Zephias]

Okay, so I'm jumping into this incredibly late but one of the types I have seen little discussion about is Fire/Psychic. It's a powerful attacking combination that puts a lot of pressure on defensive Pokemon in the meta such as Toxapex, Tomohawk and Ferrothorn, as well as some more offensive options such as Jumbao and Crucibelle and Magearna. It can offensively pressure some other relevant pokemon such as Tapu Bulu, Auru, Kartana and Steela, while matching defensively with Tapu Lele and potentially also threatening Tapu Koko. Admittedly, though, this type loses pressure against Landoge, Colossoil and Pajantom. It can also be threatened by Crucibelle just as easy as it threatens it.

It has access to a fair amount of contact, status-inflicting, etc. moves and the presence of Psychic Fangs also gives chances for unexplored ability synergy since it's a fairly new move. It has access to two very high-impact Z-Moves within the meta through Shattered Psyche and Inferno Overdrive which have a lot of neutral hitting power and threaten to power through completely different things depending on which option you've picked, offensively acting like a combination of Tapu Lele and Volkraken.

Access to interesting options like (poll jumping redacted) could also be there, giving different avenues to how you could achieve an offensive Pokemon. Depending on how liberal we want to be, it could also mean access to Heart Swap. Psychic Fangs also offers an interesting, yet not really relevant amount of utility by being a high BP attack (poll jumping redacted) that crushes screens. That could offer an interesting offensive variable for a lot of teams.

Biggest problems with this type is the Ground weakness, since that particular attacking type is easily the strongest in priority within CAP at the moment. This particular STAB combination is also resisted by six types, yet not doubly resisted by anythingpB]which means it could be a good option (poll jumping redacted)If we select this type, big attention should go to thinking about Colossoil and Landoge. However, I think it provides very interesting options for a wallbreaker or potentially an offensive pivot.

 

[Hardrocknerd]

That being said, Water/Ground is my winner. The merits of this typing are well-known, but it finds all things in balance, with the best overall ratio of immunities and resists to weaknesses (4:1), the fewest number of "threats" in the meta since it only needs to worry about the handful of Grass 'mons, and the great offensive pressure such a typing could bring (since we have discussed our Water starter being defensive but still having an offensive presence, as opposed to Toxapex). I think it is inarguably the best type, and the real dilemmas are more ones of process and optics - how can we make potentially two X/Ground types and get that through a vote? And more pointedly, how can we make a Pokemon that fulfills our coordination concept, differentiates itself from Gastrodon, Swampert (itself a starter), and several generations ago star Quagsire while also not being too powerful?

Water/Ground is definitely awesome for a defensive Mon. But that leads to the problem: There are/were already a lot of defensive Mons with exactly this typing, as you already mentioned. Between Gastrodon, Swampert and Quagsire I really don't feel like there is a niche left for CAP 25w to fill with a Ground typing. As we have so many other great options (my personal favorites are Water/Bug and Mono-Water), I'd rather see us go with one of these and have something already unique that we can balance and explore rather than locking us in on a process that instead of freedom for exploration only gives us a dire need to differentiate our CAP in some way or another from already existing things.

 

[CoolMan6001]

Why are people suggesting Water / Bug when Water / Flying is almost superior in every way? (No flying weakness, has a bug resist, and the 4× electric weakness doesn't really matter when it would die to most Electric attacks anyway. Yes there are pokemon that use Flying-Type moves, look at the VR. Im sure it could tank Ice-Type attacks even when neutral to them, and it keeps the Fire resistance.)

 

[Yay61]

I’d like to strongly advocate against picking Grass/Normal as our type. I simply don’t see the merits to this type as opposed to others which are better defensively or offensively. So far the arguments I’ve seen for it are that it can check Necturna, has good coverage and normal’s great movepool. However, being resisted by the most common defensive type in the game is hardly good coverage. Also, while there is much support for this typing, there is little support for Water/Normal and Fire/Normal, which possess the same movepool and far superior coverage. (Necturna discussion redacted) I believe we should choose a broader, more versatile typing such as Grass/Electric or Grass/Ice

 

[Deck Knight]

As far as defensive water types, there's a couple of things that concern me:

1. Stealth Rock weaknesses: Undeniably, this is bad for a defensive Pokemon and needs to be mitigated by something significant to be effective.

Of the types suggested with an SR weakness, I like Water/Bug the most. Leech Life mitigates HP loss, First Impression provides priority with some bite, Lunge can be used defensively, and just in general Bug has more tools that it's given credit for.

2. VoltTurn weakness: Water/Dark seems like a dead end. Defensive Pokemon can afford to be weak to one of the pivoting moves, but not both. Water/Flying trades a U-turn resistance for being crushed by Volt Switch, so I really don't like that aspect of it.


3. Lack of tools: For this particular concept, a secondary STAB seems very important, but I think Pure Water has the tools to not need any additional weaknesses or resistances. There really aren't any more no-brainer defensive typings to add to Water, as nearly everything gives one undesirable weakness or another. That said, I think Water/Normal is the most neutral of these, and gives the maximum amount of tool expansion in exchange for the fewest attached weaknesses. Strong priority, Substitute bypassing, and ability combinations that grant a STAB Facade or Crush Claw backing up Water STAB. Normal also has its share of status moves in Body Slam, Headbutt, and Rock Climb that rarely recieve mention because other types have superior equivalents. However, only Normal supplies that broad range of utility within a single STAB. Normal also has a clearing/sacrifice move in Explosion, which is good in circumstances where you don't need your wall anymore and can clear away the last opposition.

Now, people have discussed -Ate abilities giving the utility of Normal elsewhere, however keeping vanilla Normal STAB with Water allows for a much broader selection of defensive abilities.

Water/Ghost is also an incredible neutral addition given Water hits Tyranitar and Colossoil, the two premier Pursuit users in CAP, for super-effective damage. Ghost actually seems to have the most utility for offensive counterplay, as for example a Merciless Hex hits incredibly hard and works in tandem with Toxic stalling. Water/Ghost also gives a U-turn resistance, which is very beneficial

 

[Sereg]

As much as I like Merciless, it does not require a poison typing.

My favourite for cap25f is fire/ground. Great offensive typing, barely explored, difficult to paralyse, which is important for hyperoffense (can't be burned either), blocks targets from Volt Switching out, and Stealth Rock meutrality makes it pivot/enter more essily.

I also like fire/electric, fire/ice and fire/rock.

For cap25g, my fave is grass/electric. It is a very underexplored typing and the move diversity is great for a unique niche.

I also like grass/rock. Grass/fighting could be good for preserving the ground resist. Grass/flying might be interesting. I like grass/ice, but it forces hyperoffence, which we are not sure we want.

For cap25w, I like water/steel and water/ghost is also interesting. Pure water also wprks. Ground is too well explored and I don't wamt tp compete with Toxapepex. My fave is water/dragon though. A great defensive type currently only used by an offensive mon

 

[xurkitrium-z]

This is kinda late but I've seen very little discussion on Water/Bug and I wanna advocate for it. Its unique type combination and presupposed defensive capabilities let it switch safely into Landorus-T, Colossoil, Volcarona, Heatran, Zygarde, and Greninja and threaten them all (except Zygarde) with SE hits. The ground resist makes it especially useful for walling Zygarde/Lando/Colossoil. It also isn't easy for rock types that could ostensibly counter it like Crucibelle, Stratagem and Mega-Diancie to switch in bc they risk taking a STAB SE water hit. The biggest detriment to Water/Bug is the Stealth Rocks weakness, but we can give it the tools to deal with that in movepool, i.e. (poll jumping redacted). Overall I think that in spite of its weaknesses it's a solid typing that gives it a niche to differentiate itself from other defensive waters in the metagame.

 

[pastafari]

This is kinda late but I've seen very little discussion on Water/Bug and I wanna advocate for it. Its unique type combination and presupposed defensive capabilities let it switch safely into Landorus-T, Colossoil, Volcarona, Heatran, Zygarde, and Greninja and threaten them all (except Zygarde) with SE hits. The ground resist makes it especially useful for walling Zygarde/Lando/Colossoil. It also isn't easy for rock types that could ostensibly counter it like Crucibelle, Stratagem and Mega-Diancie to switch in bc they risk taking a STAB SE water hit. The biggest detriment to Water/Bug is the Stealth Rocks weakness, but we can give it the tools to deal with that in movepool, i.e. (poll jumping redacted). Overall I think that in spite of its weaknesses it's a solid typing that gives it a niche to differentiate itself from other defensive waters in the metagame.

From the list of "Pokemon CAP25w if water/bug can switch in", only Landorus, Colossoil and Zygarde (and let's say Greninja) are safe. Volcarona and Heatran can threaten it since we no longer resist Fire. The same threats can be better handled with a Flying Type. Immunity to Ground -bar Thousan Arrows-, and we keep the Fire resist. We'd be still weak to Rock, but our Water STAB still threaten them.
I'm not saying that Water/Bug shouldn't be used, just that what you mentioned is better done by Flying.

 

[escarlata]

Really late to the discussion but I feel Fire/Dark has had literally no discussion at all till this point. Fire/Dark is a combination that offer excellent neutral coverage, being one of the few combinations that isn't walled by the Latis.

A big reason why I find this typing to be appealing over many of the other types suggested here is that it does not confine CAP25f to just be an unidimensional attacker. Fire/Dark has excellent offensive moves on both side of the attacking spectrum, as well as a very unique set of resistances which allow it to be build as a bulky wallbreaker if need be. On top of that, Dark moves often come with some of the most powerful offensive effects, most notably Knock Off, Pursuit, Nasty Plot, Power Trip ect. Physically attacker, special attacker, bulky wallbreaker, Dark always has secondary effects that offers something to amplify those roles.

There is one thing that Fire/Dark does that literally no other type sub-typing can do: being immune to Prankster Haze. This is a very important trait for an offensive Pokemon when Tomahawk is literally on every other team. In other words, this is the type combination that can most successfully pull off a boosting set if we decide to go in that direction.
Edit: made a huuuuuge mistake, Haze is non-targeted, meaning that it isn't blocked.

On top of that, Dark is immune to Prankster. While it does not make CAP25f immune to Haze like I originally wrote, it does seem to block the occasional Prankster Nature Power revenge kills, as well as the rarer priority Taunt/Toxics, although this is just an added bonus.

Opinions on CAPw and CAPg

As for CAPg, I don't like any type combination that removes Grass's resistances to Electric, Ground or Water, because those are the biggest strengths of Grass types imo. Honestly, if not for Jumbao literally just being made a while ago, Fairy is probably the ideal secondary typing. Otherwise, I kind of want a bulky wallbreaking Grass/Fighting or something.

As for CAPw, gonna put my support behind pure Water because every other combination is just adding unecessary weaknesses imo.

 

[Warren685]

Really late to the discussion but I feel Fire/Dark has literally no discussion at all at this point.
The biggest reason why I find this typing to be appealing over many of the other types suggested here is that it does not confine CAP25f to just be an unidimensional attacker. Fire/Dark has excellent offensive moves on both side of the attacking spectrum, as well as a very unique set of resistances which allow it to be build as a bulky wallbreaker if need be.
There is one thing that Fire/Dark does that literally no other type sub-typing can do: being immune to Prankster Haze. This is a very important trait for an offensive Pokemon when Tomahawk is literally on every other team. In other words, this is the type combination that can most successfully pull off a boosting set if we decide to go in that direction. Dark supplements Fire very well because Dark moves often come with very powerful offensive effects, most notably Knock Off, Pursuit, Nasty Plot, Power Trip ect.

Pretty sure Prankster Haze isn't blocked by Dark types

 

[Hardrocknerd]

Really late to the discussion but I feel Fire/Dark has had literally no discussion at all till this point. Fire/Dark is a combination that offer excellent neutral coverage, being one of the few combinations that isn't walled by the Latis.

A big reason why I find this typing to be appealing over many of the other types suggested here is that it does not confine CAP25f to just be an unidimensional attacker. Fire/Dark has excellent offensive moves on both side of the attacking spectrum, as well as a very unique set of resistances which allow it to be build as a bulky wallbreaker if need be. On top of that, Dark moves often come with some of the most powerful offensive effects, most notably Knock Off, Pursuit, Nasty Plot, Power Trip ect. Physically attacker, special attacker, bulky wallbreaker, Dark always has secondary effects that offers something to amplify those roles.

There is one thing that Fire/Dark does that literally no other type sub-typing can do: being immune to Prankster Haze. This is a very important trait for an offensive Pokemon when Tomahawk is literally on every other team. In other words, this is the type combination that can most successfully pull off a boosting set if we decide to go in that direction.
Edit: made a huuuuuge mistake, Haze is non-targeted, meaning that it isn't blocked.

On top of that, Dark is immune to Prankster. While it does not make CAP25f immune to Haze like I originally wrote, it does seem to block the occasional Prankster Nature Power revenge kills, as well as the rarer priority Taunt/Toxics, although this is just an added bonus.

I'll steal hawk1113's analysis format real quick :P

Fire/Dark:
Super-effective Against: Bug, Grass, Ice, Steel, Ghost, Psychic
Resisted by: Dark with Fire resist, Fairy with Fire resist, Fighting with Fire resist
Walled on Paper by: 8 - Greninja(-Ash), Arghonaut, Diancie-M, Tyranitar(-M), Tapu Fini, Azumarill, Gyrados-M, Keldeo
Immune to: Psychic, Prankster
Resists: 6 - Dark, Fire, Ice, Ghost, Grass, Steel
Weak to: 4 - Fighting, Ground, Rock, Water

That's really not bad at all. It does have some walls, but not too many, and with only four weaknesses (albeit very common ones) it should have enough opportunities to switch in. While this means Fire/Dark would make for an interesting CAP, I still think it is simply outclassed by Fire/Ground, which has only 2 weaknesses and 6 walls, and Fire/Dragon with only 3 weaknesses and a sensational 3.5 walls. Fire/Dark is a close third tho, coming before Fire/Ice for me.

 

[escarlata]

I'll steal hawk1113's analysis format real quick :P

Fire/Dark:
Super-effective Against: Bug, Grass, Ice, Steel, Ghost, Psychic
Resisted by: Dark with Fire resist, Fairy with Fire resist, Fighting with Fire resist
Walled on Paper by: 8 - Greninja(-Ash), Arghonaut, Diancie-M, Tyranitar(-M), Tapu Fini, Azumarill, Gyrados-M, Keldeo
Immune to: Psychic, Prankster
Resists: 6 - Dark, Fire, Ice, Ghost, Grass, Steel
Weak to: 4 - Fighting, Ground, Rock, Water

That's really not bad at all. It does have some walls, but not too many, and with only four weaknesses (albeit very common ones) it should have enough opportunities to switch in. While this means Fire/Dark would make for an interesting CAP, I still think it is simply outclassed by Fire/Ground, which has only 2 weaknesses and 6 walls, and Fire/Dragon with only 3 weaknesses and a sensational 3.5 walls. Fire/Dark is a close third tho, coming before Fire/Ice for me.

Thanks for making this list thing. I wanted to do it myself justnow but had lessons so I didn't have time to.
The main selling point of Fire/Dark over Fire/Ground and Fire/Dragon is that it has an arguably better set of resistance than either of them.
Taking out the common types between them, we get Dark, Ghost, Ice, Psychic versus Electric, Fairy, Bug, Poison. And Fire/Ground loses resistance to Grass too on top of that.
Special mentions goes to the resistance to Dark, which means that if it runs into a scarf-Ttar or something it doesn't take that much damage on Pursuit; allows CAP25f to take pitiful damage from Knock Off if you are running a Z-crystal; takes resisted damage from Foul Play if we decide to make CAP25f physical/mixed.
Also, Dark is one of those types which we can give STAB priority if need to, though not necessary ofc.

 

[EpicUmbreon29]

It is my pleasure to officially unveil our final typing slates! We've had a lot of good suggestions and discussion, and it was tough to narrow them down, but I think that moving forward these are the options that will give us the best process possible:

CAP25g
Grass/Electric
Grass/Fighting
Grass/Flying
Grass/Ice
Grass/Normal

CAP25f
Fire/Electric
Fire/Fighting
Fire/Flying
Fire/Ground
Fire/Ice
Fire/Psychic

CAP25w
Water
Water/Bug
Water/Normal
Water/Poison
Water/Steel

Thank you to all those who participated in this Typing Discussion as we walked through untreaded ground in this process! A big thank you also to everyone who was patient with me and helped guide me through my first time on TLT! I'll take all the lessons you taught me with me on all my future endeavors in the project, and you've helped me to grow as a contributor.

 

[reachzero]

Slate approved! Let's go to the polls, and see what we get!