Heatran may be a problem for Fire/Ice, but the same argument was said for Jumbao, look at it now, holding it's own at the top also if you wanna look at the meta then CAP 25f's offensive capabilities with Ice Typing will being able to remove Lando-T, Zygarde and Tomohawk, three of the most common Mons in the metagame. Also I support what david0895 said about, we should use this type to achieve what Moltres, and Articuno couldn't. As this is a CAP we the community have the power to enable how viable this mon is, through movepool and ability. Speaking of movepool it may possibly have Freeze-Dry to threaten even Water type mons such as Toxapex and Gastrodon, or even the Sleeping Dragon, Pajantom
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CAP 25 - Part 4 - Secondary Typings Discussion
- Thread starter snake
- Start date
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Now for a more detailed post:
CAP25f:
Fire/Rock (revisited):
Weaknesses: 4x Water, 4x Ground, 2x Fighting
Resistances: Fire (4x), Bug, Fairy, Flying, Ice, Normal, Poison
Super-Effect Against: Bug, Grass, Fire, Flying, Ice, Steel
Resisted By: Water/Fighting, Water/Ground, Dragon/Fighting, Dragon/Ground
Contrary to reazchzero's assertion, Rock has one of the most diverse and relevant typings to a multitude of abilities because of its multiple moves with secondary effects, priority attack, high crit move, low BP attacks (including a multi-hit), low accuracy attacks that would benefit from an Acc boosting ability, as well as several high power moves. Rock provides a ton of offensive potential and is a great complementary type for an offense oriented direction.
One last note is the Poison, Ice, and Flying resistances would make it an effective offensive partner with Jumbao, capitalizing on Drought and its Wish suppprt to mitigate SR damage. While Fire/Steel has a similar defensive profile, it doesn't have the same huge threat potential and can't threaten opposing Fire types.
Now, a lot of Rock's concept relevant moves trend physical, but not exclusively. And as far as Special-based Fire types, that would be literally all of them. There is huge room for an effective offensive physical Fire type, and Rock complements it offensively and offers a broad range of ability interactions, both physical and mixed. This of course doesn't include coverage which can further enhance the usefullness of these abilities.
Contrast Fire/Flying, which reach may personally like but we have MegaZard Y and Gen 6 Talonflame as OU metagame-relevant examples of the type. Fire/Flying is broadly explored, Fire/Rock is totally unexplored because its sole user isn't even good in Trick Room with that abysmal speed.
CAP25w:
Water/Ice seems counter-intuitive for a defensive build, however several benefits come to mind. The first is that Water is almost the perfect complement to Ice by nullifying its Fire and Steel weaknesses. The second is the combination of Aurora Veil and the versatility of Freeze-Dry. I'd like to emphasize this in the following points, defensive does not mean passive. Heatran runs defensive builds but is far from passive. The same can be said for Mollux and Cyclohm in CAP. They can take hits and threaten back in return. Freeze-Dry is one of those unique moves that is so good it could actually be used on a mono-attacking set because it addresses so much. Not only this, Freeze-Dry also interacts with several desirable abilities.
Basically, you can make a valid defensive set on a Water/Ice Pokemon with Hail. Aurora Veil, a recovery move and Freeze-Dry. You can combine a Water/Ice Pokemon with Alolan Ninetales or Abomasnow on a team a little more easily too, as it can take Fire or Steel attacks pretty well. Or CAP itself could use Snow Warning, as that would allow instant Aurora Veil and the usually perfect acc Blizzard. Most of the problems with Water/Ice Pokemon is they have poor stat distributions or can't be used defensively except for the turn of setup (Cloyster). I think Water/Ice is a serious and unique opportunity for a defensive posture with some bite behind it.
CAP25g:
I want to echo support for Grass/Electric as a unique combination that avoids the problem a huge number of Grass types face in Tomohawk (and flying SPAM generally). It has a large number of directions it can go in, is basically unexplored because Rotom-Mow only gets Leaf Storm for STAB, Strength Sap is a built-in countermeasure for Zygarde if you can avoid a 2HKO from Thousand Arrows (or can move before Zy), and in general allows for a great deal of unique specialization that the Concept Assessment calls for.
General Thoughts:
As far as types that limit interaction with abilities, in a very real sense we're talking about STAB, as status moves can cross typings easily based on competitive demand. What a STAB should do is make us look at its quirks and how it complements the base typing and abilities. In this regard Fairy is low in quantity with decent quality on direct boosters but not much else. The question is really about how the sub-typing matches Fire, Water, or Grass, and if it can remain viable. In a vacuum each type has some ability combination potential it can pull off.
CAP25f:
Fire/Rock (revisited):
Weaknesses: 4x Water, 4x Ground, 2x Fighting
Resistances: Fire (4x), Bug, Fairy, Flying, Ice, Normal, Poison
Super-Effect Against: Bug, Grass, Fire, Flying, Ice, Steel
Resisted By: Water/Fighting, Water/Ground, Dragon/Fighting, Dragon/Ground
Contrary to reazchzero's assertion, Rock has one of the most diverse and relevant typings to a multitude of abilities because of its multiple moves with secondary effects, priority attack, high crit move, low BP attacks (including a multi-hit), low accuracy attacks that would benefit from an Acc boosting ability, as well as several high power moves. Rock provides a ton of offensive potential and is a great complementary type for an offense oriented direction.
One last note is the Poison, Ice, and Flying resistances would make it an effective offensive partner with Jumbao, capitalizing on Drought and its Wish suppprt to mitigate SR damage. While Fire/Steel has a similar defensive profile, it doesn't have the same huge threat potential and can't threaten opposing Fire types.
Now, a lot of Rock's concept relevant moves trend physical, but not exclusively. And as far as Special-based Fire types, that would be literally all of them. There is huge room for an effective offensive physical Fire type, and Rock complements it offensively and offers a broad range of ability interactions, both physical and mixed. This of course doesn't include coverage which can further enhance the usefullness of these abilities.
Contrast Fire/Flying, which reach may personally like but we have MegaZard Y and Gen 6 Talonflame as OU metagame-relevant examples of the type. Fire/Flying is broadly explored, Fire/Rock is totally unexplored because its sole user isn't even good in Trick Room with that abysmal speed.
CAP25w:
Water/Ice seems counter-intuitive for a defensive build, however several benefits come to mind. The first is that Water is almost the perfect complement to Ice by nullifying its Fire and Steel weaknesses. The second is the combination of Aurora Veil and the versatility of Freeze-Dry. I'd like to emphasize this in the following points, defensive does not mean passive. Heatran runs defensive builds but is far from passive. The same can be said for Mollux and Cyclohm in CAP. They can take hits and threaten back in return. Freeze-Dry is one of those unique moves that is so good it could actually be used on a mono-attacking set because it addresses so much. Not only this, Freeze-Dry also interacts with several desirable abilities.
Basically, you can make a valid defensive set on a Water/Ice Pokemon with Hail. Aurora Veil, a recovery move and Freeze-Dry. You can combine a Water/Ice Pokemon with Alolan Ninetales or Abomasnow on a team a little more easily too, as it can take Fire or Steel attacks pretty well. Or CAP itself could use Snow Warning, as that would allow instant Aurora Veil and the usually perfect acc Blizzard. Most of the problems with Water/Ice Pokemon is they have poor stat distributions or can't be used defensively except for the turn of setup (Cloyster). I think Water/Ice is a serious and unique opportunity for a defensive posture with some bite behind it.
CAP25g:
I want to echo support for Grass/Electric as a unique combination that avoids the problem a huge number of Grass types face in Tomohawk (and flying SPAM generally). It has a large number of directions it can go in, is basically unexplored because Rotom-Mow only gets Leaf Storm for STAB, Strength Sap is a built-in countermeasure for Zygarde if you can avoid a 2HKO from Thousand Arrows (or can move before Zy), and in general allows for a great deal of unique specialization that the Concept Assessment calls for.
General Thoughts:
As far as types that limit interaction with abilities, in a very real sense we're talking about STAB, as status moves can cross typings easily based on competitive demand. What a STAB should do is make us look at its quirks and how it complements the base typing and abilities. In this regard Fairy is low in quantity with decent quality on direct boosters but not much else. The question is really about how the sub-typing matches Fire, Water, or Grass, and if it can remain viable. In a vacuum each type has some ability combination potential it can pull off.
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1 (Fire). What types have healthy STAB movepools that they can coordinate with eligible abilities for offensive use? What types might be better suited to coordinate with an eligible ability as non-STAB coverage, due to their faults defensively or otherwise, and why?
With CAP 25f focusing primarily on offensive potential, my analysis of fire-typing will focus solely on that characteristic. Fire-types struggle with dealing damage against rock, water, dragon, and other fire-types. Compared to my post regarding CAP 25g, fire-typing doesn’t have nearly as many issues dealing damage to the CAP roster. Only 9 of 25 resist fire-type attacks and only 1 of those 9 is a 4x resist (Volkraken). Fire-types also hit 7 of 25 for super-effective damage. Taking this into account, I determined that Ground, Ice, Dragon, and Fighting to be the strongest types to pair with fire-typing for an offensive Pokémon. The order in which these types appear is ordered from most to least beneficial.
With CAP 25f focusing primarily on offensive potential, my analysis of fire-typing will focus solely on that characteristic. Fire-types struggle with dealing damage against rock, water, dragon, and other fire-types. Compared to my post regarding CAP 25g, fire-typing doesn’t have nearly as many issues dealing damage to the CAP roster. Only 9 of 25 resist fire-type attacks and only 1 of those 9 is a 4x resist (Volkraken). Fire-types also hit 7 of 25 for super-effective damage. Taking this into account, I determined that Ground, Ice, Dragon, and Fighting to be the strongest types to pair with fire-typing for an offensive Pokémon. The order in which these types appear is ordered from most to least beneficial.
- Ground: Ground-typing addresses fire’s inability to hit rock and other fire-types while hitting water and dragon for neutral damage. Fire would hit the bug and grass-types that would resist ground-type moves. Also, while not the purpose of CAP 25f, Fire/Ground is a very strong defensive typing and takes neutral stealth rock damage.
- Ice: The benefits of Ice-typing is contingent upon the inclusion of freeze-dry in CAP 25f’s movepool. With freeze-dry, Ice-type hits water and dragon and hits rock-types for neutral damage. Fire would hit the steel-types that would resist ice-type moves. Unfortunately, Ice has an equally hard time dealing with fire-types. Without freeze-dry, Fire/Ice would not make this list.
- Dragon: Dragon-typing would be used to hit other dragons super-effective and hit rock, fire, and water for neutral damage. Fire attacks would hit the steel types that resist dragon moves.
- Fighting: While this typing has been beaten to death over the last 7 generation (especially for starters), it a very strong offensive typing. Fighting-type would be used to hit rock-types super-effectively and fire, water, and dragon for neutral damage. Fire/Fighting also has some good resistances to make use of (steel, fire, grass, ice, dark, and 4x bug) and takes neutral stealth rock damage.
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There are a number of good questions that were proposed at the start of this thread, but rather than address them all individually, I'd like to just address the first ones about the individual Pokemon, referencing the kind of things the other questions ask about throughout.
(Water). What types can make effective use of defensively-oriented moves that coordinate with eligible abilities?
I want to start off by addressing this question because I think it is actually the type we can be the most free with. The simple fact is, "defensively-oriented moves" are not going to care about typing. These are status moves and offensive moves with side effects that are not caring as much about STAB. So to be quite honest, I really don't think we should be worrying about move/ability synergy when dealing with this typing. Rather, the most important thing here will be picking a type that can support a solid defensive Pokemon, but that does not put it in direct competition with anything that will likely outclass it due to the limitations we will have on its stats. With that in mind, I think we should probably avoid Fighting, cause of the direct competition with Arghonaut. I'd also be a bit wary of picking Ground or Poison, as Gastrodon and Toxapex, while not far beyond what we can do with stats, are so solid in their niches that I feel it would make it difficultto not end up quite similar to them, and possibly just replacing them if we want to be good. And that would not be quite so interesting.
Instead, I think where we should be looking for our Water type is to combinations like Water/Steel, Water/Dragon, Water/Fairy, or even just pure Water. Types like this are very solid defensively, overall, and either lack good Pokemon of that type combination, or have the best Pokemon of the combination lacking a key trait (most notably recovery) that we could easily utilize to let us not be outclassed, despite what will likely be lower stats.
(Fire). What types have healthy STAB movepools that they can coordinate with eligible abilities for offensive use? What types might be better suited to coordinate with an eligible ability as non-STAB coverage, due to their faults defensively or otherwise, and why?
Next I want to talk about fire types. Crucially here, we want to be offensive, which, very much unlike our Water type, means we really need to have types that can take advantage of potential abilities with its STAB offensive moves, for the sake of the concept. As such, even if a type is good offensively, if it lacks the moves to give us a number of viable ability options, then we should probably avoid it. And, as has been brought up be a few people already, this really means that we should avoid Fire/Fairy, despite it being a fantastic offensive typing, as fairy has so few moves for us to take advantage of, and therefore so few options for us to pick from in later stages.
So, with that in mind, there are a few specific types that I have been thinking a lot about. Fire/Rock and Fire/Flying are two types I like because they both posses a lot of different options for the abilities that we are going to be choosing from. Low accuracy, secondary effects, recoil, you name it. Rock in particular has a ton of different options in this regard, but I feel is a slightly worse type generically for our Pokemon when compared to Flying.
Another pair that I really like a lot are Fire/Electric and, my personal favorite, Fire/Ice. These two are types that I feel may not have quite as many different ability options as the previous two, but mesh even better with our Fire type for what we are trying to achieve. Both Electric and Ice are similar to Fire in that they have pervasive secondary effects on their attacks, which opens up a number of options. Unlike Rock, which leans heavily physical, or Flying, where our ability choice will have huge effect on whether we want to be physical or special, Ice and Electric are much more open. Nearly every single competitive move of both types has some effect that can easily tie into an ability, and many are available in both physical and special. Furthermore, while both are great offensive types, the combination with Fire leaves some substantial gaps on both, especially Ice. I actually think this is a good thing, as it also opens up the option for us to greater utilize our ability with coverage moves, not just STABs. It also gives us much greater control over what kind of checks and counters we do and do not want to have. Some of the abilities we may be looking at are very potent, and so will make coverage trickier to deal with. So the ability to simultaneously have a powerful offensive type while also having a number of natural type based checks will give us a lot more flexibility in what we can do.
Finally, I also do just want to say that, much as I know people don't want to hear it, Fire/Fighting would also be a pretty darn good typing for this Pokemon. Lots of move options, just like the above, while being one of the most solid overall types. While we have seen such a Pokemon before, they are hardly relevant nowadays. Blaziken is too powerful, while Infernape and Emboar are too weak. But with that, said, I think these Pokemon can serve as nice examples of how the typing can fail in the current metagame, while allowing us to be safe in the knowledge that if a starter Pokemon of that type can be both too strong and too weak, it should be easy enough to make one that is just right.
(Grass). What are some underexplored types that have the potential to allow us to create an as-of-yet unseen niche for CAP 25g? How does this typing help us to explore our concept?
To be honest, this is the type I am the least sure about. With less of a clear offensive or defensive focus, I would put less emphasis on directly utilizing STAB moves with abilities than I would for the Fire mon, but certainly I would keep it in mind, unlike the Water mon. Avoiding the types most commonly utilized by good Pokemon is, like with the Water mon, probably ideal, as we may have a hard time competing with our limited stats. But of course, reachzero is right in saying that just because good Pokemon of a typing exist that it doesn't mean we have explored all ways of utilizing it. I'd probably want to stay away from Poison type, as just about every way of trying to use that type combo exists, but beyond that, I don't have a lot of solid guidance on where we should be going. Of the types suggested so far in the thread, perhaps my favorites are Grass/Electric, Grass/Flying and Grass/Ice, but I do not have as solid an opinion on any type combination here as I do for the others, and I will likely post again with any further thoughts if I decide on a preferred typing.
(Water). What types can make effective use of defensively-oriented moves that coordinate with eligible abilities?
I want to start off by addressing this question because I think it is actually the type we can be the most free with. The simple fact is, "defensively-oriented moves" are not going to care about typing. These are status moves and offensive moves with side effects that are not caring as much about STAB. So to be quite honest, I really don't think we should be worrying about move/ability synergy when dealing with this typing. Rather, the most important thing here will be picking a type that can support a solid defensive Pokemon, but that does not put it in direct competition with anything that will likely outclass it due to the limitations we will have on its stats. With that in mind, I think we should probably avoid Fighting, cause of the direct competition with Arghonaut. I'd also be a bit wary of picking Ground or Poison, as Gastrodon and Toxapex, while not far beyond what we can do with stats, are so solid in their niches that I feel it would make it difficultto not end up quite similar to them, and possibly just replacing them if we want to be good. And that would not be quite so interesting.
Instead, I think where we should be looking for our Water type is to combinations like Water/Steel, Water/Dragon, Water/Fairy, or even just pure Water. Types like this are very solid defensively, overall, and either lack good Pokemon of that type combination, or have the best Pokemon of the combination lacking a key trait (most notably recovery) that we could easily utilize to let us not be outclassed, despite what will likely be lower stats.
(Fire). What types have healthy STAB movepools that they can coordinate with eligible abilities for offensive use? What types might be better suited to coordinate with an eligible ability as non-STAB coverage, due to their faults defensively or otherwise, and why?
Next I want to talk about fire types. Crucially here, we want to be offensive, which, very much unlike our Water type, means we really need to have types that can take advantage of potential abilities with its STAB offensive moves, for the sake of the concept. As such, even if a type is good offensively, if it lacks the moves to give us a number of viable ability options, then we should probably avoid it. And, as has been brought up be a few people already, this really means that we should avoid Fire/Fairy, despite it being a fantastic offensive typing, as fairy has so few moves for us to take advantage of, and therefore so few options for us to pick from in later stages.
So, with that in mind, there are a few specific types that I have been thinking a lot about. Fire/Rock and Fire/Flying are two types I like because they both posses a lot of different options for the abilities that we are going to be choosing from. Low accuracy, secondary effects, recoil, you name it. Rock in particular has a ton of different options in this regard, but I feel is a slightly worse type generically for our Pokemon when compared to Flying.
Another pair that I really like a lot are Fire/Electric and, my personal favorite, Fire/Ice. These two are types that I feel may not have quite as many different ability options as the previous two, but mesh even better with our Fire type for what we are trying to achieve. Both Electric and Ice are similar to Fire in that they have pervasive secondary effects on their attacks, which opens up a number of options. Unlike Rock, which leans heavily physical, or Flying, where our ability choice will have huge effect on whether we want to be physical or special, Ice and Electric are much more open. Nearly every single competitive move of both types has some effect that can easily tie into an ability, and many are available in both physical and special. Furthermore, while both are great offensive types, the combination with Fire leaves some substantial gaps on both, especially Ice. I actually think this is a good thing, as it also opens up the option for us to greater utilize our ability with coverage moves, not just STABs. It also gives us much greater control over what kind of checks and counters we do and do not want to have. Some of the abilities we may be looking at are very potent, and so will make coverage trickier to deal with. So the ability to simultaneously have a powerful offensive type while also having a number of natural type based checks will give us a lot more flexibility in what we can do.
Finally, I also do just want to say that, much as I know people don't want to hear it, Fire/Fighting would also be a pretty darn good typing for this Pokemon. Lots of move options, just like the above, while being one of the most solid overall types. While we have seen such a Pokemon before, they are hardly relevant nowadays. Blaziken is too powerful, while Infernape and Emboar are too weak. But with that, said, I think these Pokemon can serve as nice examples of how the typing can fail in the current metagame, while allowing us to be safe in the knowledge that if a starter Pokemon of that type can be both too strong and too weak, it should be easy enough to make one that is just right.
(Grass). What are some underexplored types that have the potential to allow us to create an as-of-yet unseen niche for CAP 25g? How does this typing help us to explore our concept?
To be honest, this is the type I am the least sure about. With less of a clear offensive or defensive focus, I would put less emphasis on directly utilizing STAB moves with abilities than I would for the Fire mon, but certainly I would keep it in mind, unlike the Water mon. Avoiding the types most commonly utilized by good Pokemon is, like with the Water mon, probably ideal, as we may have a hard time competing with our limited stats. But of course, reachzero is right in saying that just because good Pokemon of a typing exist that it doesn't mean we have explored all ways of utilizing it. I'd probably want to stay away from Poison type, as just about every way of trying to use that type combo exists, but beyond that, I don't have a lot of solid guidance on where we should be going. Of the types suggested so far in the thread, perhaps my favorites are Grass/Electric, Grass/Flying and Grass/Ice, but I do not have as solid an opinion on any type combination here as I do for the others, and I will likely post again with any further thoughts if I decide on a preferred typing.
So this is my first post in a cap process so here goes:
1 (Grass). What are some underexplored types that have the potential to allow us to create an as-of-yet unseen niche for CAP 25g? How does this typing help us to explore our concept?
For this question I feel like I have to go with the one that has been repeatedly mentioned in this thread and that is Grass/Electric. This is one of the most underexplored typings with one Pokemon being Rotom-Mow. However, there is no Pokemon that truly fulfills the role of a grass/electric type, as rotom only uses leaf storm. Most grass types cannot pivot effectively, with only 10 grass types having access to u-turn and 1 to volt switch, so having an electric type which will almost definitely be able to pivot because most electric types get volt switch, is something that we don't currently have in the metagame. Being able to pivot will set it apart from the grass types we see consistently, like Jumbao, Ferrothorn, Serperior, etc., and a Grass/Electric type with access to more than one grass type move would be unique and interesting.
1 (Grass). What are some underexplored types that have the potential to allow us to create an as-of-yet unseen niche for CAP 25g? How does this typing help us to explore our concept?
For this question I feel like I have to go with the one that has been repeatedly mentioned in this thread and that is Grass/Electric. This is one of the most underexplored typings with one Pokemon being Rotom-Mow. However, there is no Pokemon that truly fulfills the role of a grass/electric type, as rotom only uses leaf storm. Most grass types cannot pivot effectively, with only 10 grass types having access to u-turn and 1 to volt switch, so having an electric type which will almost definitely be able to pivot because most electric types get volt switch, is something that we don't currently have in the metagame. Being able to pivot will set it apart from the grass types we see consistently, like Jumbao, Ferrothorn, Serperior, etc., and a Grass/Electric type with access to more than one grass type move would be unique and interesting.
Welcome to CAP! great to see someone else new participating. I completely agree with you that Grass/Electric is a very unexplored typing with Rotom-M who has access to just Leaf Storm being the only example. However, I just wanted to clarify something going forward. A pokemon does not need to have access to VoltTurn to be a pivot. Two great Grass type pivots in Tangrowth and Amoonguss, B+ and B on the VR respectively, don't have access to any sort of momentum grabbing moves yet function very efficiently as a pivot thanks to Regenerator allowing them to continuously replenish their health switching in and out. Just want to make sure you don't confuse having VoltTurn access to being a pivot, as many pivots don't have/need access to those moves to be successful. Was just a small thing, but with Grass/Electric being such a popular typing figured I'd just keep everything as accurate about what it provides as possible, and sadly the chance to be the first effective Grass type pivot in the meta just isn't one of those things. I did however enjoy reading your post, and writing this little response, and am really glad to see someone new trying out CAP
This is my first ever post on this site, so I hope it isn't too awful
(Fire). What types have healthy STAB movepools that they can coordinate with eligible abilities for offensive use?
I'm aware of how controversial Fire/Fighting has been in this due to how there's already been 3 of them, but I'm going to nominate the typing regardless, for one reason and one reason alone: all of them, while having decent mixed offensive stats, mostly use their physical movepool. So if we look at it from that angle, we can explore Fire/Fighting as a dedicated Special Attacker, where it can make use of abilities such as No Guard (Inferno/Fire Blast+Focus Blast), Competitive to let it serve as a very shaky check to Defog and Lando-T with HP Ice, or even Contrary with Overheat backed up either by a weak Close Combat if it ends up on the bulky side or Curse if it ends up fast for an admittedly very risky Speed boost.
As for Grass, I have little to say besides what already has been in Electric and Normal.
And as for Water, I don't think anybody would take kindly to my idea of making a Water/Fire type (especially with Volkraken existing already and that Super Hax concept being turned down) with Serene Grace and access to both Scald and Lava Plume to serve as a dead stop to a lot of common Steel types, especially Heatran and Magearna, and a check to Grass and Fairies. Plus a defensive Poke being weak to Stealth Rock isn't exactly a good defensive Poke, now is it?
(Fire). What types have healthy STAB movepools that they can coordinate with eligible abilities for offensive use?
I'm aware of how controversial Fire/Fighting has been in this due to how there's already been 3 of them, but I'm going to nominate the typing regardless, for one reason and one reason alone: all of them, while having decent mixed offensive stats, mostly use their physical movepool. So if we look at it from that angle, we can explore Fire/Fighting as a dedicated Special Attacker, where it can make use of abilities such as No Guard (Inferno/Fire Blast+Focus Blast), Competitive to let it serve as a very shaky check to Defog and Lando-T with HP Ice, or even Contrary with Overheat backed up either by a weak Close Combat if it ends up on the bulky side or Curse if it ends up fast for an admittedly very risky Speed boost.
As for Grass, I have little to say besides what already has been in Electric and Normal.
And as for Water, I don't think anybody would take kindly to my idea of making a Water/Fire type (especially with Volkraken existing already and that Super Hax concept being turned down) with Serene Grace and access to both Scald and Lava Plume to serve as a dead stop to a lot of common Steel types, especially Heatran and Magearna, and a check to Grass and Fairies. Plus a defensive Poke being weak to Stealth Rock isn't exactly a good defensive Poke, now is it?
Hi! This is also my first post ever on Smogon (it looks like I'm not the only one in this case on this thread).
(Fire). What types have healthy STAB movepools that they can coordinate with eligible abilities for offensive use?
Fire-Ice : I really think such a type could a really good idea for our starter. It is a quite good offensive type (only walled by Rock-types, Fire-types and Water-types, the latter ones being covered by Freeze-Dry). Moreover, the moves of the two types are really varied and thus wouldn't restrict our concept and the choice of an ability: moves that lack accuracy such as Fire Blast or Blizzard would benefit from No Guard/Compounded Eyes, moves having potential secondary effects (such as the burns that many fire-moves induce or the crits induced by Frost Breath...) would highly benefit from Serene Grace. As an offensive powerhouse, our starter could thanks to its typing destroy premier threats such as Tomohawk, Landorus-T, Zygarde...
To my mind Stealth Rocks aren't such an horrible issue for such a typing. It is indeed a big drawback, but this could be compensated by the powerful combination of talent and movepool the concept proposes... Look at Volcarona: a deadly sweeper with a x4 weakness. Of course Articuno is bad, but it has nothing to compensate the drawback, as well as Talonflame (which had a way to compensate in Gen6). To conclude if we don't want SR to be a problem, we just have to give our CAP something outstanding.
Fire-Rock : This is the other type I like that has been proposed. It's quite good offensively for at least neutral damages (fire touches for neutral damages everything rock doesn't, and rock does as well for fire). The movepool of the rock-type would also fulfill our concept, even if there would be less possible abilities. No Guard would boost the rock-type attacks' accuracy, and Serene Grace would increase the probabilities of a secondary effect to happen, such as Ancient Power rising the stats. I however dislike the Idea of rock head+flare blitz/head smash, which would look too much like Alolan Marowak for instance (even if that mon isn't good in the metagame).
Fire-Fairy : Even if I really enjoy this type, which is blessed with a wonderful offensive coverage, I must disagree with this idea. As said previously on the thread, Fairy has little offensive moves, and thus the ability choice wouldn't be wide.
(Grass). What are some underexplored types that have the potential to allow us to create an as-of-yet unseen niche for CAP 25g? How does this typing help us to explore our concept?
Grass-Electric : This typing seems to be the main proposed idea, and I really like it. This is an unexplored typing (or at least not very explored) that would be perfect for the concept of specialization, Grass and Electric both having a wide movepool with wide effects (Stun Spore, Leech Seed, Spore, Horn Leech, Wood Hammer, Forest's Curse for Grass and Volt Switch, Magnet Rise, Thunder Wave... for Electric). Wide effects mean a wide choice for the ability : Serene Grace, Prankster... Furthermore such a typing would help our starter dealing with Tomohawk, a premier threat in the metagame.
Grass-Normal : Could be great! Gives an immunity to Ghost in exchange of a weakness to fighting, and gives the access to the widest movepool. However, I believe that the second type of the grass-starter should help it defensively, and should at least delete one awkward weakness, as does the Grass-Electric typing with the flying weakness of grass. Consequently I'm not in favor of that typing.
CAP 25g's typing is something tricky to decide, as the CAP community hasn't decided what will be the niche this starter will fulfill. Other types have good options (Dark, Ice, and Normal have mainly been proposed), but I have no argument for them.
(Water). What types can make effective use of defensively-oriented moves that coordinate with eligible abilities?
Water-Steel : This one is great, but we should just avoid making another Naviathan or Empoleon. A good defensive type as this one can efficiently use defensively-oriented moves, but I have no idea about how to coordinate them with an ability.
I also agree with those stating that we shouldn't make use of an already-used defensive typing: Water-Poison should be avoided, as well as Water-Ground (we will never reach Toxapex's level in term of a defensive mon).
To conclude, I think that CAP is a way to create new things, and that's why we should use unexplored typings.
(Fire). What types have healthy STAB movepools that they can coordinate with eligible abilities for offensive use?
Fire-Ice : I really think such a type could a really good idea for our starter. It is a quite good offensive type (only walled by Rock-types, Fire-types and Water-types, the latter ones being covered by Freeze-Dry). Moreover, the moves of the two types are really varied and thus wouldn't restrict our concept and the choice of an ability: moves that lack accuracy such as Fire Blast or Blizzard would benefit from No Guard/Compounded Eyes, moves having potential secondary effects (such as the burns that many fire-moves induce or the crits induced by Frost Breath...) would highly benefit from Serene Grace. As an offensive powerhouse, our starter could thanks to its typing destroy premier threats such as Tomohawk, Landorus-T, Zygarde...
To my mind Stealth Rocks aren't such an horrible issue for such a typing. It is indeed a big drawback, but this could be compensated by the powerful combination of talent and movepool the concept proposes... Look at Volcarona: a deadly sweeper with a x4 weakness. Of course Articuno is bad, but it has nothing to compensate the drawback, as well as Talonflame (which had a way to compensate in Gen6). To conclude if we don't want SR to be a problem, we just have to give our CAP something outstanding.
Fire-Rock : This is the other type I like that has been proposed. It's quite good offensively for at least neutral damages (fire touches for neutral damages everything rock doesn't, and rock does as well for fire). The movepool of the rock-type would also fulfill our concept, even if there would be less possible abilities. No Guard would boost the rock-type attacks' accuracy, and Serene Grace would increase the probabilities of a secondary effect to happen, such as Ancient Power rising the stats. I however dislike the Idea of rock head+flare blitz/head smash, which would look too much like Alolan Marowak for instance (even if that mon isn't good in the metagame).
Fire-Fairy : Even if I really enjoy this type, which is blessed with a wonderful offensive coverage, I must disagree with this idea. As said previously on the thread, Fairy has little offensive moves, and thus the ability choice wouldn't be wide.
(Grass). What are some underexplored types that have the potential to allow us to create an as-of-yet unseen niche for CAP 25g? How does this typing help us to explore our concept?
Grass-Electric : This typing seems to be the main proposed idea, and I really like it. This is an unexplored typing (or at least not very explored) that would be perfect for the concept of specialization, Grass and Electric both having a wide movepool with wide effects (Stun Spore, Leech Seed, Spore, Horn Leech, Wood Hammer, Forest's Curse for Grass and Volt Switch, Magnet Rise, Thunder Wave... for Electric). Wide effects mean a wide choice for the ability : Serene Grace, Prankster... Furthermore such a typing would help our starter dealing with Tomohawk, a premier threat in the metagame.
Grass-Normal : Could be great! Gives an immunity to Ghost in exchange of a weakness to fighting, and gives the access to the widest movepool. However, I believe that the second type of the grass-starter should help it defensively, and should at least delete one awkward weakness, as does the Grass-Electric typing with the flying weakness of grass. Consequently I'm not in favor of that typing.
CAP 25g's typing is something tricky to decide, as the CAP community hasn't decided what will be the niche this starter will fulfill. Other types have good options (Dark, Ice, and Normal have mainly been proposed), but I have no argument for them.
(Water). What types can make effective use of defensively-oriented moves that coordinate with eligible abilities?
Water-Steel : This one is great, but we should just avoid making another Naviathan or Empoleon. A good defensive type as this one can efficiently use defensively-oriented moves, but I have no idea about how to coordinate them with an ability.
I also agree with those stating that we shouldn't make use of an already-used defensive typing: Water-Poison should be avoided, as well as Water-Ground (we will never reach Toxapex's level in term of a defensive mon).
To conclude, I think that CAP is a way to create new things, and that's why we should use unexplored typings.
I'm gonna attempt to clarify my post because I think my wording threw off the overall point I was trying to make, as Gross Sweep pointed out. Again I will be addressing this point:
1 (Grass). What are some underexplored types that have the potential to allow us to create an as-of-yet unseen niche for CAP 25g? How does this typing help us to explore our concept?
Here is what I said before:
"Most grass types cannot pivot effectively, with only 10 grass types having access to u-turn and 1 to volt switch, so having an electric type which will almost definitely be able to pivot because most electric types get volt switch, is something that we don't currently have in the metagame. Being able to pivot will set it apart from the grass types we see consistently, like Jumbao, Ferrothorn, Serperior, etc., and a Grass/Electric type with access to more than one grass type move would be unique and interesting."
What I meant to say was we do not have a Grass type currently that can pivot offensively. As Gross Sweep said, Ferrothorn and Tangrowth are obviously very effective defensive pivots but they by no means have huge offensive presence. A Grass/Electric type would most likely be able to grab momentum on the type of team that Ferrothorn/Tangrowth wouldn't necessarily fit on. While there are obviously a lot of Pokemon with VoltTurn capabilities, the unique typing of Grass/Electric, a typing that is relatively solid on both the offensive and defensive sides, would allow this Pokemon to carve out an important niche in the CAP metagame.
1 (Grass). What are some underexplored types that have the potential to allow us to create an as-of-yet unseen niche for CAP 25g? How does this typing help us to explore our concept?
Here is what I said before:
"Most grass types cannot pivot effectively, with only 10 grass types having access to u-turn and 1 to volt switch, so having an electric type which will almost definitely be able to pivot because most electric types get volt switch, is something that we don't currently have in the metagame. Being able to pivot will set it apart from the grass types we see consistently, like Jumbao, Ferrothorn, Serperior, etc., and a Grass/Electric type with access to more than one grass type move would be unique and interesting."
What I meant to say was we do not have a Grass type currently that can pivot offensively. As Gross Sweep said, Ferrothorn and Tangrowth are obviously very effective defensive pivots but they by no means have huge offensive presence. A Grass/Electric type would most likely be able to grab momentum on the type of team that Ferrothorn/Tangrowth wouldn't necessarily fit on. While there are obviously a lot of Pokemon with VoltTurn capabilities, the unique typing of Grass/Electric, a typing that is relatively solid on both the offensive and defensive sides, would allow this Pokemon to carve out an important niche in the CAP metagame.
2. What types place the most restrictions on our list of potential abilities? Are these types worth discussing anyway, if they can avoid pigeonholing us into only one or two viable options? What types leave the most variety available?
Types with movepools lacking in variety will leave our list of potential abilities more restricted. The two things we would want to see out of a secondary typing would be significant overlap to make abilities attractive for both STABs and potentially covering up a weakness with unique status moves (like the Aurora Veil discussion that Deck Knight brought up) or important coverage combinations. Additional status options will be the most important for our defensive Water starter, solidifying coverage will be the most important for our offensive Fire starter, and adding in unique options will be critical in giving our Grass starter a specialization.
The shallow types are still worth discussion, especially since the primary types that we're already working with have good versatility inherent.
3. Based on their primary types and decided roles, which members of our trio will need a more versatile second typing to be viable? What is it that makes a typing versatile?
Our Grass type, due to its need for specialization, will require a more versatile second typing to give it more of the unique options it will need to be viable. For a typing to be versatile, it has to provide at least two of: complementary offensive coverage, patching up defensive shortcomings or providing a defensive niche, and providing a wide array of unique STAB moves.
4. Given our BST limitations, how can we intelligently use typing in order to prevent our starter trio from being outclassed by similar Grass, Fire, and Water Pokemon, even if they should share a somewhat similar role? Read: how can we use typing to carve out a new role in the CAP metagame?
We can prevent our starters from being outclassed in a role by Pokemon with the same primary typing if we ensure they are able to handle a different slew of threats than their competitors. Consider Gastrodon and Toxapex, both slow, defensive Water types that compete for a teamslot. Despite sharing a Water typing, the threats they handle through their combined typing differ -- Toxapex handling Mega Charizard Y, Tangrowth, Volcarona, etc and Gastrodon handling Tapu Koko, Magearna, Heatran, Krilowatt, etc -- allowing each to have a viable niche in the CAP metagame despite having the same overall role (even sharing the same rank on the VR!).
I've seen some discussion on Fire / Ice, which I want to more directly touch on. The conclusion of our concept assessment stage was that our Fire starter should be primarily offensive, with a lot of discussion focusing on it being an offensive pivot. While Fire / Ice is interesting offensive coverage, the lack of useful resistances such a typing would have would pressure CAP25f's ability to pivot in on nearly any of the threats in the CAP metagame, especially with the 4x Stealth Rock weakness taken into consideration. Contrast this with Fire / Flying, which also struggles with a 4x Stealth Rock weakness but which keeps an important resistance to Steel (maintaining the ability to reliably answer Ferrothorn) and uses a Ground immunity in combination with its resistances to important attacking types like Fighting to find switch-in opportunities to apply offensive pressure, like Mega Charizard Y is able to do now and Talonflame could do effectively back in Gen 6. I believe in this sense, Ice would be better suited to coordinate as non-STAB coverage because of its defensive faults. Ice also tends to be 4x super effective against top CAP threats that Fire on its own won't handle, like Zygarde and Landorus-T, meaning it usually doesn't need the STAB boost to secure KOs.
When we move forward with our typing for our Fire type, it will be important to ensure it has a solid set of usable resistances to cement its place as a viable offensive threat and prevent it from going the way of Blacephalon, a Pokemon which struggles even outside of its inability to deal with Tyranitar and Colossoil because it provides little to no defensive benefit to its team. For the current CAP metagame, I believe the most viable typings for CAP25f would be Fire / Ground or Fire / Electric.
Fire / Ground is one of the best typings for an offensive pivot. Mega Camerupt demonstrates this with its ability to pivot into Tapu Koko, Magearna, and Mega Mawile along with its ability to shred through a large portion of the tier with its STABs alone, keeping in mind that it has no item slot, poor non-STAB coverage, and is about 27% weaker than a base 126 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Pokemon would be. Mega Camerupt suffers in viability because of its low Speed leaving it seemingly out of place and easy to revenge kill outside of Trick Room. Yet even in OU, a tier where Trick Room isn't as relevant and Mega Camerupt isn't used on Trick Room teams, it retains viability because of its ability to answer those threats we share with CAP and reply with phenomenal STAB coverage. Ground is a relatively shallow typing in comparison with other types discussed so far, yet still has enough versatility (Multi-hit moves, Stat reduction, Contact, High crit ratio, Trapping, and Secondary effect) that it should still make for an interesting and varied ability discussion.
Fire / Electric accomplishes a lot of what Fire / Ground does, checking similar threats, though at the cost of a Rock weakness and lacking the ability to block Volt Switch. However, it gives our Fire starter the potential to break through Arghonaut with STAB (both types notably also break Toxapex, a niche over Volkraken, and Volkraken itself) and would be a bit more versatile typing than Fire / Ground for our ability stage.
Types with movepools lacking in variety will leave our list of potential abilities more restricted. The two things we would want to see out of a secondary typing would be significant overlap to make abilities attractive for both STABs and potentially covering up a weakness with unique status moves (like the Aurora Veil discussion that Deck Knight brought up) or important coverage combinations. Additional status options will be the most important for our defensive Water starter, solidifying coverage will be the most important for our offensive Fire starter, and adding in unique options will be critical in giving our Grass starter a specialization.
The shallow types are still worth discussion, especially since the primary types that we're already working with have good versatility inherent.
3. Based on their primary types and decided roles, which members of our trio will need a more versatile second typing to be viable? What is it that makes a typing versatile?
Our Grass type, due to its need for specialization, will require a more versatile second typing to give it more of the unique options it will need to be viable. For a typing to be versatile, it has to provide at least two of: complementary offensive coverage, patching up defensive shortcomings or providing a defensive niche, and providing a wide array of unique STAB moves.
4. Given our BST limitations, how can we intelligently use typing in order to prevent our starter trio from being outclassed by similar Grass, Fire, and Water Pokemon, even if they should share a somewhat similar role? Read: how can we use typing to carve out a new role in the CAP metagame?
We can prevent our starters from being outclassed in a role by Pokemon with the same primary typing if we ensure they are able to handle a different slew of threats than their competitors. Consider Gastrodon and Toxapex, both slow, defensive Water types that compete for a teamslot. Despite sharing a Water typing, the threats they handle through their combined typing differ -- Toxapex handling Mega Charizard Y, Tangrowth, Volcarona, etc and Gastrodon handling Tapu Koko, Magearna, Heatran, Krilowatt, etc -- allowing each to have a viable niche in the CAP metagame despite having the same overall role (even sharing the same rank on the VR!).
I've seen some discussion on Fire / Ice, which I want to more directly touch on. The conclusion of our concept assessment stage was that our Fire starter should be primarily offensive, with a lot of discussion focusing on it being an offensive pivot. While Fire / Ice is interesting offensive coverage, the lack of useful resistances such a typing would have would pressure CAP25f's ability to pivot in on nearly any of the threats in the CAP metagame, especially with the 4x Stealth Rock weakness taken into consideration. Contrast this with Fire / Flying, which also struggles with a 4x Stealth Rock weakness but which keeps an important resistance to Steel (maintaining the ability to reliably answer Ferrothorn) and uses a Ground immunity in combination with its resistances to important attacking types like Fighting to find switch-in opportunities to apply offensive pressure, like Mega Charizard Y is able to do now and Talonflame could do effectively back in Gen 6. I believe in this sense, Ice would be better suited to coordinate as non-STAB coverage because of its defensive faults. Ice also tends to be 4x super effective against top CAP threats that Fire on its own won't handle, like Zygarde and Landorus-T, meaning it usually doesn't need the STAB boost to secure KOs.
When we move forward with our typing for our Fire type, it will be important to ensure it has a solid set of usable resistances to cement its place as a viable offensive threat and prevent it from going the way of Blacephalon, a Pokemon which struggles even outside of its inability to deal with Tyranitar and Colossoil because it provides little to no defensive benefit to its team. For the current CAP metagame, I believe the most viable typings for CAP25f would be Fire / Ground or Fire / Electric.
Fire / Ground is one of the best typings for an offensive pivot. Mega Camerupt demonstrates this with its ability to pivot into Tapu Koko, Magearna, and Mega Mawile along with its ability to shred through a large portion of the tier with its STABs alone, keeping in mind that it has no item slot, poor non-STAB coverage, and is about 27% weaker than a base 126 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Pokemon would be. Mega Camerupt suffers in viability because of its low Speed leaving it seemingly out of place and easy to revenge kill outside of Trick Room. Yet even in OU, a tier where Trick Room isn't as relevant and Mega Camerupt isn't used on Trick Room teams, it retains viability because of its ability to answer those threats we share with CAP and reply with phenomenal STAB coverage. Ground is a relatively shallow typing in comparison with other types discussed so far, yet still has enough versatility (Multi-hit moves, Stat reduction, Contact, High crit ratio, Trapping, and Secondary effect) that it should still make for an interesting and varied ability discussion.
Fire / Electric accomplishes a lot of what Fire / Ground does, checking similar threats, though at the cost of a Rock weakness and lacking the ability to block Volt Switch. However, it gives our Fire starter the potential to break through Arghonaut with STAB (both types notably also break Toxapex, a niche over Volkraken, and Volkraken itself) and would be a bit more versatile typing than Fire / Ground for our ability stage.
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(Fire). What types have healthy STAB movepools that they can coordinate with eligible abilities for offensive use?
Fire/Ice : Never before used typing with gigantic offensive potential, dealing with top CAP threats such as Tomohawk, Landorus-T, Zygarde. Able to abuse abilities like No Guard, Sheer Force, Magic Guard and Snow Warning (to a certain extant). Definitely my favourite typing for CAP 25f.
Fire/Rock : This typing has been proposed a lot already and for a good reason: both typings have amazing offensive potential with moves like Flare Blitz, Head Smash, Stone Edge, Overheat, Accelrock, Fire Blast, which can abuse Rock Head, Serene Grace, No Guard, Sheer Force and many other abilities. Overral amazing offensive capabilities.
(Grass). What are some underexplored types that have the potential to allow us to create an as-of-yet unseen niche for CAP 25g? How does this typing help us to explore our concept?
Grass/Fairy : Yes, we have explored Grass/Fairy on Jumbao not so long ago, but here are the reasons I think Grass/Fairy would benefit CAP 25g:
- Although Grass/Fairy already has it's presence on the CAP metagame with Tapu Bulu and Jumbao, both of these pokemon are mainly used on an offensive role. Bulu physically and Jumbao specially (with amazing support capabilities, too). I propose CAP 25g, however, to be mainly focused on defense, as Grass/Fairy can deal with the likes of Zygarde, Colossoil and Landorus-T - which, frankly, could use some extra counters.
- With, for example, abilities like Triage synergizing with the likes of Giga Drain, Strength Sap, Draining Kiss or Regenerator with U-Turn to extend it's longevity, CAP 25g would have a very much needed niche on the metagame.
- Grass and Fairy both have wide support movepools as well as moves with secondary effects aplenty, which coordinate with things like Prankster, Compoundeyes (Stun Spore, Sleep Powder, etc), for example.
(Water). What types can make effective use of defensively-oriented moves that coordinate with eligible abilities?
Water/Bug : Honestly, an underrated defensive typing with the ability to wall and pressure a great portion of the CAP metagame. Water/Bug also has moves like Spider Web, Sticky Web, Heal Order, Struggle Bug, Scald and Lunge, which all have amazing defensive and/or support capabilities that sinergyze well with a bunch of abilities such as Triage, Prankster and Serene Grace.
I agree CAP 25w shouldn't have a typing that is already used by a defensive Water-type like Toxapex or Gastrodon, as it'd face direct competition and, most likely, be straight outclassed.
Fire/Ice : Never before used typing with gigantic offensive potential, dealing with top CAP threats such as Tomohawk, Landorus-T, Zygarde. Able to abuse abilities like No Guard, Sheer Force, Magic Guard and Snow Warning (to a certain extant). Definitely my favourite typing for CAP 25f.
Fire/Rock : This typing has been proposed a lot already and for a good reason: both typings have amazing offensive potential with moves like Flare Blitz, Head Smash, Stone Edge, Overheat, Accelrock, Fire Blast, which can abuse Rock Head, Serene Grace, No Guard, Sheer Force and many other abilities. Overral amazing offensive capabilities.
(Grass). What are some underexplored types that have the potential to allow us to create an as-of-yet unseen niche for CAP 25g? How does this typing help us to explore our concept?
Grass/Fairy : Yes, we have explored Grass/Fairy on Jumbao not so long ago, but here are the reasons I think Grass/Fairy would benefit CAP 25g:
- Although Grass/Fairy already has it's presence on the CAP metagame with Tapu Bulu and Jumbao, both of these pokemon are mainly used on an offensive role. Bulu physically and Jumbao specially (with amazing support capabilities, too). I propose CAP 25g, however, to be mainly focused on defense, as Grass/Fairy can deal with the likes of Zygarde, Colossoil and Landorus-T - which, frankly, could use some extra counters.
- With, for example, abilities like Triage synergizing with the likes of Giga Drain, Strength Sap, Draining Kiss or Regenerator with U-Turn to extend it's longevity, CAP 25g would have a very much needed niche on the metagame.
- Grass and Fairy both have wide support movepools as well as moves with secondary effects aplenty, which coordinate with things like Prankster, Compoundeyes (Stun Spore, Sleep Powder, etc), for example.
(Water). What types can make effective use of defensively-oriented moves that coordinate with eligible abilities?
Water/Bug : Honestly, an underrated defensive typing with the ability to wall and pressure a great portion of the CAP metagame. Water/Bug also has moves like Spider Web, Sticky Web, Heal Order, Struggle Bug, Scald and Lunge, which all have amazing defensive and/or support capabilities that sinergyze well with a bunch of abilities such as Triage, Prankster and Serene Grace.
I agree CAP 25w shouldn't have a typing that is already used by a defensive Water-type like Toxapex or Gastrodon, as it'd face direct competition and, most likely, be straight outclassed.
(Yet another longtime Cap lurker, since Mollux, first time posting here)
Gonna cover my thoughts on one of the lesser answered questions here:
4. Given our BST limitations, how can we intelligently use typing in order to prevent our starter trio from being outclassed by similar Grass, Fire, and Water Pokemon, even if they should share a somewhat similar role? Read: how can we use typing to carve out a new role in the CAP metagame?
Naturally if we're trying to establish new niches here with the mons we're creating, we should probably look at the roles that we have already and then draw comparisons into how exactly we can differentiate CAP25gfw
For GAP25g it's pretty clear that if we're going for a more offensive and support based Pokemon, we have to consider those that already exist in this meta. I know I'm kind of repeating everything that's been said already, but to compare offensive threats, first, there are are a few significant meta Pokemon that we need to differentiate our stater from:
Offensive comparison
- The thing about Kartana is that it's basically a giant speed demon that generally abuses a scarf to punch holes in the opponent's team. Therefore it stands to reason that we should try to avoid something too similar in terms of wallbreaking and cleaning. This can be alleviated basically just by making sure that the stat distribution isn't the same (which is really easy to do given we're dealing with starters), and the type doesn't matter as much outside of the fact that these two will be sharing the grass type.
- Necturna is a fun mon, but it should be pretty straighforward in terms of differentiating it based on typing. 25g won't be getting Sketch, but even still Necturna seems to really focus a lot more on the Physical side of offense, while still having utility pressure in the form of webs and/or Spore. As a result, in my opinion we should try to have 25g be a Pokemon with a secondary typing that can take advantage of special attacking (even though we're in a post gen 3 meta lol). The biggest thing is that 25g can't just be a special version of Necturna, or just a general one-move status setup sweeper. The other thing about Necturna is that it doesn't really have a really good means of reliable recovery, which is something that I will address in a bit when I talk about my thoughts on typing.
- Bulu and Jumbao are an interesting case as they're both pretty good mons in different ways. Bulu's a great wallbreaker, and Jumbao is just a great mon all around here. Ideally we don't want 25g to have CAP25 to be similar to these two in general given these two, so I feel like, as if it weren't obvious, Grass/Fairy should be completely out of the question.
- Serp isn't a huge presence here, but it's a pretty good stallbreaker in this meta. Of course that comes from both boosting and Taunt, and I feel like 25g shouldn't be too worried about filling the exact same niche as serp, especially given the coverage. Considering Serp's only real moves are either grass moves, HP fire, and Dragon Pulse, as long as 25g doesn't outright share those moves, it should be fine. Also I think that the way Serp is built statwise might be a good basis for the stat stuff but that's for another day.
Utility
- The absolute unit of support and defensive grass mons, I think it goes without saying that 25g absolutely cannot be the same thing as Ferro. Obviously this pretty much means we should avoid having Ferro's otherwise great typing of Grass/Steel.
- Tangrowth is probably the closest thing to the best grass-typed pivot we have in CAP right now and I'll give my thoughts more about the role 25g should play (in my opinion), but I feel like Tangrowth is the closest here. The thing about Tangrowth is that it holds very little offensive pressure in the meta at the moment, despite being able to otherwise allow mons to pivot around. Additionally, it's defensive nature is also greatly benefitted by its pure grass type, allowing for less compounded weaknesses.
Based on everything with what I've spoken about so far, and the roles that various grass types play in this meta, I'm leaning towards trying to get 25g to be a more offensive pivot that can use attacks to get itself in and out handily while also supporting its teammates with status moves too whether it be screens or other things. It's therefore my thought that I'm very much in the camp of Grass/Electric. With the secondary typing of electric, we can effectively carve an offensive pivot / momentum-building niche for 25g while still retaining a mostly unique Grass type combo. 25g would be able to realistically have a switching move in Volt Switch, have potential access to screens, Leech Seed, Giga Drain and Parabolic Charge, and other potential status-y powder moves. I'm probably getting too far ahead of myself, but there's a lot of room 25g to develop in that niche with the typing of Grass/Electric.
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For a more offensive oriented GAP25g, I think there's a clear consensus that we need to have a way to separate 25f from Volkraken (the best fire mon around right now.) For the sake of consistency I'll maintain the same process as I did for 25g here too just so that we can compare and contrast how we want 25f (and eventualy 25w) to function.
- I think my biggest focus on differentiating 25f from Volkraken is the way Volkraken can punish switching with its wide coverage and ability. There's also the fact that Volkraken is easily one of the best special attackers in the game that can't really break past Dragon types, and other Water types. One of the biggest differentiators that 25f needs to have is a way to break past dragon types, as well as any potential bulky water types that may enter the fray (though the latter isn't as necessary). Additionally, the ability to handle other electric types couldn't hurt either (and would make a cool connection back to 25g if it does happen to have electric as its second type) as Volkraken really can't do much to those either.
- Heatran is another mon that we obviously don't want 25f being similar to. I mean, it should be pretty easy to avoid having 25f fill the same niche as tran given that tran has Flash Fire, but even still. The biggest thing in my mind is that 25f shouldn't be a Fire/Steel type simply out of similarity to Tran and the fact that it isn't the greatest type in this kind of meta if it's not explicitly playing Tran'd role.
- Volcarona is yet another offensive Fire mon, though it's still different enough from the other two previously listed that's worth discussing. To me, Volcarona is probably the most consistent fire-typed set up sweeper in the meta the moment and while there's nothing wrong with the typing of Volca with respect to 25f, I feel the thing we have to avoid here is the role itself. Apologies if this isn't exactly the clearest, but I feel like avoiding Fire/Bug isn't as necessary of a move compared to avoiding Fire/Steel, but if we were to go down the path of Fire/Bug (which I don't think we should do btw), we'd have to make a huge push to make 25f way way different, and not have it be a strong setup sweeper.
- Lastly, there's been talk about it inthis thread already, but avoiding filling the niches designed by Zard X and Y should be a must. The thing with Zard X is that its Dragon typing really defines a lot of the roles its able to fill, while Zard Y's typing doesn't really define its role. Just some small notes
I'm not really as sure about the typing of 25f, but I feel like it definitely needs to be something that can hit with more physical attacks, especially if we're going for a really offensively oriented mon. Something like Fire/Rock could be really cool, especially if its a super fast hard hitting mon that has access to some moves like EQ, and Stone Edge. If it had the right amount of stats in some defensive setting to be able to live hits from Dragons or electric types, I think that's a big deal and would help it tremendously. Obviously it would utterly fail against things like Lando and Tomahawk though. There's also Fire/Fairy which is a fun combo I've always had an appreciation for. The thing about that is that it's really easy for that mon to get some nice physical moves like Play Rough, Flare Blitz, as well as probably some related moves like maybe Knock Off, Wild Charge, Close Combat, or even something dumb like Psycho Cut. The key here is that we can beat Tomohawk, Bulky steels, and even potentially Some of the really bulky water types, like...
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CAP25w is easily one of the hardest things to figure out exactly what we want, IMO. Given that we want a defensive Pokemon, we need something that be able to tank hits while still be able to exert pressure. I think Deck Knight said it best "defensive does not mean passive", and I'm pretty sure I feel that our 25w needs to be something that doesn't just sit there and take hits the way Toxapex does.
- I think the biggest goal role-wise is to not make an Arghonaut clone. Arghonaut is, as it stands, probably the best bulky water type in the tier given that it's a bit more active of a Pokemon compared to Toxapex, and Gastrodon. Nevertheless, Arghonaut is still relatively passive when you consider that it tends to completely run things like Circle Throw and Scald to phase and cripple its opponents. I don't think Argho's typing really comes into play here as much, outside of moves and perhaps things it can and can't beat, but I think we should avoid Water/Fighting for a type, especially when we go down the tanky water type route.
- We don't need another Toxapex. I think that goes without saying.
- Maybe this is a bit of a weird choice here, but Suicune is something we shouldn't try to recreate either. I do think that pure Water may be the way to go here, but we don't want to have a mon that basically functions the same way as VinCune or CroCune does.
As I noted just previously, I really like the idea of having 25w be a pure Water type here. Not only does Water nautrealy provide a lot of tanky support in that it only has two weaknesses in Grass and Electric, but it also does a really good job at providing a lot of flexibility with movepool, without providing a second type. If you look at some of the other pure Water in general (not necessarily viable mons mind you) types like Vaporeon, Suicune, Mega-Blastoise, Clawitzer and even Manaphy, all have some pretty interesting movepools despite the fact that they're pure Water types. I'm not a fan of Water/Poison given that Tenta and Pex both exist, Water/Dragon because of the whole starter flavor thing (essentially making the starter the best given that it would resist Grass and Fire naturally with dragon typing), and I feel like doing a second Water/Steel so soon after Naviathan is really not the greatest idea.
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TL;DR:
- Grass/Electric Pivot
- Fast more physical Offensive Fire/(Rock or Fairy)
- Bulky but not passive pure Water
Gonna cover my thoughts on one of the lesser answered questions here:
4. Given our BST limitations, how can we intelligently use typing in order to prevent our starter trio from being outclassed by similar Grass, Fire, and Water Pokemon, even if they should share a somewhat similar role? Read: how can we use typing to carve out a new role in the CAP metagame?
Naturally if we're trying to establish new niches here with the mons we're creating, we should probably look at the roles that we have already and then draw comparisons into how exactly we can differentiate CAP25gfw
For GAP25g it's pretty clear that if we're going for a more offensive and support based Pokemon, we have to consider those that already exist in this meta. I know I'm kind of repeating everything that's been said already, but to compare offensive threats, first, there are are a few significant meta Pokemon that we need to differentiate our stater from:
Offensive comparison
Utility
Based on everything with what I've spoken about so far, and the roles that various grass types play in this meta, I'm leaning towards trying to get 25g to be a more offensive pivot that can use attacks to get itself in and out handily while also supporting its teammates with status moves too whether it be screens or other things. It's therefore my thought that I'm very much in the camp of Grass/Electric. With the secondary typing of electric, we can effectively carve an offensive pivot / momentum-building niche for 25g while still retaining a mostly unique Grass type combo. 25g would be able to realistically have a switching move in Volt Switch, have potential access to screens, Leech Seed, Giga Drain and Parabolic Charge, and other potential status-y powder moves. I'm probably getting too far ahead of myself, but there's a lot of room 25g to develop in that niche with the typing of Grass/Electric.
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For a more offensive oriented GAP25g, I think there's a clear consensus that we need to have a way to separate 25f from Volkraken (the best fire mon around right now.) For the sake of consistency I'll maintain the same process as I did for 25g here too just so that we can compare and contrast how we want 25f (and eventualy 25w) to function.
I'm not really as sure about the typing of 25f, but I feel like it definitely needs to be something that can hit with more physical attacks, especially if we're going for a really offensively oriented mon. Something like Fire/Rock could be really cool, especially if its a super fast hard hitting mon that has access to some moves like EQ, and Stone Edge. If it had the right amount of stats in some defensive setting to be able to live hits from Dragons or electric types, I think that's a big deal and would help it tremendously. Obviously it would utterly fail against things like Lando and Tomahawk though. There's also Fire/Fairy which is a fun combo I've always had an appreciation for. The thing about that is that it's really easy for that mon to get some nice physical moves like Play Rough, Flare Blitz, as well as probably some related moves like maybe Knock Off, Wild Charge, Close Combat, or even something dumb like Psycho Cut. The key here is that we can beat Tomohawk, Bulky steels, and even potentially Some of the really bulky water types, like...
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CAP25w is easily one of the hardest things to figure out exactly what we want, IMO. Given that we want a defensive Pokemon, we need something that be able to tank hits while still be able to exert pressure. I think Deck Knight said it best "defensive does not mean passive", and I'm pretty sure I feel that our 25w needs to be something that doesn't just sit there and take hits the way Toxapex does.
As I noted just previously, I really like the idea of having 25w be a pure Water type here. Not only does Water nautrealy provide a lot of tanky support in that it only has two weaknesses in Grass and Electric, but it also does a really good job at providing a lot of flexibility with movepool, without providing a second type. If you look at some of the other pure Water in general (not necessarily viable mons mind you) types like Vaporeon, Suicune, Mega-Blastoise, Clawitzer and even Manaphy, all have some pretty interesting movepools despite the fact that they're pure Water types. I'm not a fan of Water/Poison given that Tenta and Pex both exist, Water/Dragon because of the whole starter flavor thing (essentially making the starter the best given that it would resist Grass and Fire naturally with dragon typing), and I feel like doing a second Water/Steel so soon after Naviathan is really not the greatest idea.
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TL;DR:
- Grass/Electric Pivot
- Fast more physical Offensive Fire/(Rock or Fairy)
- Bulky but not passive pure Water
So, this post might seem strange and receive some backlash, but hear me out.
(Fire). What types have healthy STAB movepools that they can coordinate with eligible abilities for offensive use?
Fire/Electric has a lot of potential here. Electric handles the Water-types that resist Fire, it hits Flying-types well, and take a look at resists. Fire is resisted by Water, Fire, Rock, and Dragon. Electric is resisted by Electric, Grass, Dragon, and Ground (immunity.) Except for Dragon, these types cover each other really well, and there are plenty of ways teammates can handle Dragon-types. If you think about an offensively-inclined Pokemon like CAP25f, it could have a widely offensive movepool boosted by wonderful abilities, and would give us a wide variety of move and ability options, while also being potent.
(Grass). What are some underexplored types that have the potential to allow us to create an as-of-yet unseen niche for CAP 25g? How does this typing help us to explore our concept?
Grass/Electric has been discussed, and has received a fair amount of support. I won't go into it again here, because other people have superbly described the benefits of this typing, but I definitely agree that it is potent for what we want CAP25g to handle.
(Water). What types can make effective use of defensively-oriented moves that coordinate with eligible abilities?
Water/Electric is a great defensive typing, with weaknesses only to Grass- and Ground-types. Being neutral to Electric-type moves would be great for a defensive Water-type, and it would give it significant difference to other relevant Water-type tanks. Water/Steel, Water/Psychic, and Water/Poison have all been done relatively well, and Water/Electric would give CAP25w a distinct niche over other bulky Water-types. An expansive movepool with plenty of defensive options from both Water-type and Electric-type movepools (won't list things to avoid polljumping) combined with some great ability options could create a potent defensive tank. Think Lanturn, but effective.
Now, I know this is a bit scandalous, as no Grass/Fire/Water core has ever all shared a secondary typing. But hey, this is CAP25, and we get to break the norm if we choose. Electric makes sense for all three starters as a secondary typing considering what we want each one to accomplish.
(Fire). What types have healthy STAB movepools that they can coordinate with eligible abilities for offensive use?
Fire/Electric has a lot of potential here. Electric handles the Water-types that resist Fire, it hits Flying-types well, and take a look at resists. Fire is resisted by Water, Fire, Rock, and Dragon. Electric is resisted by Electric, Grass, Dragon, and Ground (immunity.) Except for Dragon, these types cover each other really well, and there are plenty of ways teammates can handle Dragon-types. If you think about an offensively-inclined Pokemon like CAP25f, it could have a widely offensive movepool boosted by wonderful abilities, and would give us a wide variety of move and ability options, while also being potent.
(Grass). What are some underexplored types that have the potential to allow us to create an as-of-yet unseen niche for CAP 25g? How does this typing help us to explore our concept?
Grass/Electric has been discussed, and has received a fair amount of support. I won't go into it again here, because other people have superbly described the benefits of this typing, but I definitely agree that it is potent for what we want CAP25g to handle.
(Water). What types can make effective use of defensively-oriented moves that coordinate with eligible abilities?
Water/Electric is a great defensive typing, with weaknesses only to Grass- and Ground-types. Being neutral to Electric-type moves would be great for a defensive Water-type, and it would give it significant difference to other relevant Water-type tanks. Water/Steel, Water/Psychic, and Water/Poison have all been done relatively well, and Water/Electric would give CAP25w a distinct niche over other bulky Water-types. An expansive movepool with plenty of defensive options from both Water-type and Electric-type movepools (won't list things to avoid polljumping) combined with some great ability options could create a potent defensive tank. Think Lanturn, but effective.
Now, I know this is a bit scandalous, as no Grass/Fire/Water core has ever all shared a secondary typing. But hey, this is CAP25, and we get to break the norm if we choose. Electric makes sense for all three starters as a secondary typing considering what we want each one to accomplish.
Ok, I think that I'm starting to get seriously annoyed at the tendency to assume that a typing gives us a better chance of getting certain moves based on the movepool of pre-existing Pokemon of that type. This is particularly nonsensical when discussing non-attacking moves, like Leech Seed, Stun Spore, Thunder Wave, Screens or Sticky Web, as we can give them to any of our starters regardless of our typings, without literally any drawback, as there is no real benefit to using these moves with their associate types.
I am currently working on a review of typings brought up in discussion so far, but I wanted to take this opportunity to say that Mx is 100% correct.
Giving a Pokemon a certain typing does not make it inherently more likely that you will get Status moves matching that typing. You do not have to have Grass typing to get Leech Seed, for example (see: Celesteela). You can talk about STAB coverage, but otherwise do not make hard assumptions about what type of moves we will be getting. That is a discussion for a later stage.
Other than that, I'm fairly happy with what I'm seeing in this thread, so let's keep it up, and move forward together!
Giving a Pokemon a certain typing does not make it inherently more likely that you will get Status moves matching that typing. You do not have to have Grass typing to get Leech Seed, for example (see: Celesteela). You can talk about STAB coverage, but otherwise do not make hard assumptions about what type of moves we will be getting. That is a discussion for a later stage.
Other than that, I'm fairly happy with what I'm seeing in this thread, so let's keep it up, and move forward together!
My first post here (technically my second, but the first was a poll post)
Grass / Rock: This is probably the second most popular choice for a typing (I even thought that should be the type until I saw the flaws it has) and it has a nice offensive typing for the mon, but the things holding it back are some different weakness that are arguably more major than the ones Grass / Electric has (such as a Fighting weakness) and a lack of resistances. This would be my second option though.
Grass / Ice: This typing would be neat due to the fact it has two niches in one (STAB that hits Flying-Types and it still resists Ground), but that typing is so offensively oriented that it would really limit what we could do.
Grass / Flying: Another type with good offensive potential, but its weaknesses hold it back (a Rock weakness and a double Ice weakness are my biggest worries) from being the best choice at the moment.
Fire / Rock: Quite an amazing offensive typing on it's own, but Rock doesn't hit anything notable in this metagame. Almost everything Rock hits super-effectively is either lacking in defense and would probably die to some other random coverage move, or is also hit super-effectively with Electric. Plus, most Rock-Type moves are physical which has a chance of forcing a physical spread on the stats.
Fire / Fairy: My second choice for this mon, it can hit some top tier threats super effectively (like some Dragons) but struggles against others (Like Toxapex) which is important in order to differentiate this mon from other Fire-Types.
Fire / Ice: Sounds like an amazing offensive typing, but way too frail even for an offensive pokemon. A 4x Rock Weakness is really bad and unlike Flying and Bug, Ice doesn't have any interesting things to justify that.
Water / Steel: This is a type that seems good on paper, especially considering it only has three weaknesses. However, those three weakness are to the worst possible typings ever in Electric, Ground, and Fighting. This is bad considering the two S-ranks have either Fighting or Ground STAB and another A+ rank uses Electric STAB.
Water / Poison and Water / Ground: Please avoid these typings because existing pokemon already have them. Either this mon would overpower one of them, or be outclassed by one of them.
pure Water: also sounds good on paper, but then this mon would have more trouble differentiating itself from the two good defensive Water-Types and it would also make the ability stage harder.
I would like to second Grass / Electric for an option. Not only does the Electric typing really help out with some top tier threats, but it's also a good general typing for whatever role it happens to get. Electric's natural movepool really works with Grass's natural movepool thanks to some options I wont list to avoid Poll-Jummping. Though I also want to mention some other typings that may not work for some reasons.
Grass / Rock: This is probably the second most popular choice for a typing (I even thought that should be the type until I saw the flaws it has) and it has a nice offensive typing for the mon, but the things holding it back are some different weakness that are arguably more major than the ones Grass / Electric has (such as a Fighting weakness) and a lack of resistances. This would be my second option though.
Grass / Ice: This typing would be neat due to the fact it has two niches in one (STAB that hits Flying-Types and it still resists Ground), but that typing is so offensively oriented that it would really limit what we could do.
Grass / Flying: Another type with good offensive potential, but its weaknesses hold it back (a Rock weakness and a double Ice weakness are my biggest worries) from being the best choice at the moment.
I wanna say Fire / Electric is a good option. The Electric-Type also helps the Fire-Type offensively well, allowing it to hit some Bulky Water-Types and helps with Tomohawk. Electric's natural movepool also helps with Fire's natural movepool. Also some more typings I want to comment on.
Fire / Rock: Quite an amazing offensive typing on it's own, but Rock doesn't hit anything notable in this metagame. Almost everything Rock hits super-effectively is either lacking in defense and would probably die to some other random coverage move, or is also hit super-effectively with Electric. Plus, most Rock-Type moves are physical which has a chance of forcing a physical spread on the stats.
Fire / Fairy: My second choice for this mon, it can hit some top tier threats super effectively (like some Dragons) but struggles against others (Like Toxapex) which is important in order to differentiate this mon from other Fire-Types.
Fire / Ice: Sounds like an amazing offensive typing, but way too frail even for an offensive pokemon. A 4x Rock Weakness is really bad and unlike Flying and Bug, Ice doesn't have any interesting things to justify that.
Don't think this is weird but I also think another Electric typing would be best here too, so Water / Electric. This typing being neutral to Electric is already neat and it also resists Ice to go along with it (Something Water/Grass, Water/Ground and Water/Dragon can't do) so it's already got something there. Add on some more resists like Fire, Flying, and Steel and you got a nice defensive typing. The Ground weakness is unfortunate, but it could easily be worked around (like possibly giving this mon offensive potential but no more here due to not wanting to poll-jump). And here are my comments on other suggested types.
Water / Steel: This is a type that seems good on paper, especially considering it only has three weaknesses. However, those three weakness are to the worst possible typings ever in Electric, Ground, and Fighting. This is bad considering the two S-ranks have either Fighting or Ground STAB and another A+ rank uses Electric STAB.
Water / Poison and Water / Ground: Please avoid these typings because existing pokemon already have them. Either this mon would overpower one of them, or be outclassed by one of them.
pure Water: also sounds good on paper, but then this mon would have more trouble differentiating itself from the two good defensive Water-Types and it would also make the ability stage harder.
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(Water). What types can make effective use of defensively-oriented moves that coordinate with eligible abilities?
Water/Bug is also a unique defensive typing to give to CAP25w. Flying, Electric and Rock is it's only weakness while it gains resistances to water, ice, fighting, ground and steel. Combining bug and water's movepool will enable it to coordinate defensive strategies with moves such as Heal Order, Defend order, Leech Life, and Aqua Ring to stay out on the field while utilizing Lunge, Struggle Bug and Scald to disable any strong attackers. I agree with iFeedback how Triage or Serene Grace can impact these moves. Another ability that could work with recovery moves from the bug and water movepools is Multiscale. Tough Claws also interact with all these moves and a big one such as First Impression and Liquidation that was introduce in Gen 7.
Water/Bug is also a unique defensive typing to give to CAP25w. Flying, Electric and Rock is it's only weakness while it gains resistances to water, ice, fighting, ground and steel. Combining bug and water's movepool will enable it to coordinate defensive strategies with moves such as Heal Order, Defend order, Leech Life, and Aqua Ring to stay out on the field while utilizing Lunge, Struggle Bug and Scald to disable any strong attackers. I agree with iFeedback how Triage or Serene Grace can impact these moves. Another ability that could work with recovery moves from the bug and water movepools is Multiscale. Tough Claws also interact with all these moves and a big one such as First Impression and Liquidation that was introduce in Gen 7.
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Somo more thoughts:
Fire/Rock: I think that people are heavily overestimating this one. Having 2 double weaknesses to Ground and Water is terrible even for an offensive mon. Both of these STABs get completely walled by Arghonaut, which will most certainly deal a OHKO with Earthquake. Toxapex might be probably 2HKO just with our Rock STAB, but even its weak Scalds will deal massive damage. Zygarde also laughs at our STABs, and can either set up Coil/DD/Substitute or just spam Thousand Arrows. As this typing is primarily physical, it will also have a hard time breaking past the usual blanket walls, Tomohawk and Landorus-T. Finally, Fire/Rock is also extremely easy to revenge kill, Scarf Volkraken will outspeed us, and depending on our speed tier, Colossoil, Naviathan, M-Latios, M-Crucibelle, Greninja, Earth Power Syclant, and Stratagem, all pack moves that will force us out easily
Ice (in general): This is still interesting option, but people are heavily overselling Freeze-Dry as a way of getting around Bulky Water, as that move only has 70 Base Power, which is only 105 BP after STAB, barely more than something like an non-STAB Thunderbolt. For example, without a LO, Syclant would fail to 2HKO Pex with it (252 SpA Syclant Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 116-140 (38.2 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery).
Also, Grass/Normal is still my favorite combination for that particular starter by a long margin. Defensive, it is indisputably better than Grass/Electric, because of its better match-up against Zygarde, defensive Landorus-T, and most important of all, Shell Smash Necturna, one of the most threatening attackers in the meta, which currently hugely restricts teambuilding, because you need to have Haze Tomohawk or a Scarfer with 110 Speed or more to avoid being sweeped by her if you give her even just a single free turn. Adding a Fighting type weakness is not a huge deal either, because this type is pretty uncommon in the meta, and teammates like Landorus-T, Toxapex, and Tomohawk can easily neuter them. Grass/Electric might eliminate the Flying weakness, but switching into powerful Flying moves, such as M-Pinsir's Return, Tornadus-T's Hurricane, or Hawlucha's Acrobatics is still going to be difficult. The only resistances that it adds is to Steel (thanks to GMars for pointing this out, I had forgotten about this one) and to Electric itself, which Grass already resist, making it redundant, as many Grass-types like Pyroak, Tangrowth and Ferrothorn have shown to be capable of checking even the most powerful of Electric attacks with just a x2 resistance. Offensively, Normal shouldn't be underestimated either, as it has great neutral coverage, and tons of powerful options on both physical and special sides, and only Steel resists it in combination with Grass, while Grass/Electric is still walled by both Dragon and Grass types, and the Flying types that Electric hits will not appreciate having to switch into powerful Normal moves anyways.
Fire/Rock: I think that people are heavily overestimating this one. Having 2 double weaknesses to Ground and Water is terrible even for an offensive mon. Both of these STABs get completely walled by Arghonaut, which will most certainly deal a OHKO with Earthquake. Toxapex might be probably 2HKO just with our Rock STAB, but even its weak Scalds will deal massive damage. Zygarde also laughs at our STABs, and can either set up Coil/DD/Substitute or just spam Thousand Arrows. As this typing is primarily physical, it will also have a hard time breaking past the usual blanket walls, Tomohawk and Landorus-T. Finally, Fire/Rock is also extremely easy to revenge kill, Scarf Volkraken will outspeed us, and depending on our speed tier, Colossoil, Naviathan, M-Latios, M-Crucibelle, Greninja, Earth Power Syclant, and Stratagem, all pack moves that will force us out easily
Ice (in general): This is still interesting option, but people are heavily overselling Freeze-Dry as a way of getting around Bulky Water, as that move only has 70 Base Power, which is only 105 BP after STAB, barely more than something like an non-STAB Thunderbolt. For example, without a LO, Syclant would fail to 2HKO Pex with it (252 SpA Syclant Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 116-140 (38.2 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery).
Also, Grass/Normal is still my favorite combination for that particular starter by a long margin. Defensive, it is indisputably better than Grass/Electric, because of its better match-up against Zygarde, defensive Landorus-T, and most important of all, Shell Smash Necturna, one of the most threatening attackers in the meta, which currently hugely restricts teambuilding, because you need to have Haze Tomohawk or a Scarfer with 110 Speed or more to avoid being sweeped by her if you give her even just a single free turn. Adding a Fighting type weakness is not a huge deal either, because this type is pretty uncommon in the meta, and teammates like Landorus-T, Toxapex, and Tomohawk can easily neuter them. Grass/Electric might eliminate the Flying weakness, but switching into powerful Flying moves, such as M-Pinsir's Return, Tornadus-T's Hurricane, or Hawlucha's Acrobatics is still going to be difficult. The only resistances that it adds is to Steel (thanks to GMars for pointing this out, I had forgotten about this one) and to Electric itself, which Grass already resist, making it redundant, as many Grass-types like Pyroak, Tangrowth and Ferrothorn have shown to be capable of checking even the most powerful of Electric attacks with just a x2 resistance. Offensively, Normal shouldn't be underestimated either, as it has great neutral coverage, and tons of powerful options on both physical and special sides, and only Steel resists it in combination with Grass, while Grass/Electric is still walled by both Dragon and Grass types, and the Flying types that Electric hits will not appreciate having to switch into powerful Normal moves anyways.
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Fire: I think the best type options we have here are Fire / Dragon and Fire / Electric. While Rock is an amazing offensive typing, it has horrible defensive utility and is extremely weak to priority. Ice only exacerbates these issues, while also not allowing CAP 25f to break through Water and Fire types with it's STAB moves. I feel like a general consensus has been that CAP 25f should be able to break through Water types, and Electric and Dragon do that nicely. The former gives it super effective STAB vs Toxapex and Arghonaut, and the latter gives it a lot more defensive utility while providing decent neutral coverage. Both types are relatively unexplored in Rotom-H, and Zard X or Turtonator, none of which excel in CAP.
Water: The recently mentioned Water / Bug piques my interest: It gives it a unique set of resistances compared to pex and Gastrodon, and Bug has some interesting STAB options. Other than that, I like Water / Ghost for it's uniqueness. It's a pretty ok STAB combo and the weaknesses brought about by Ghost take form in either a rare STAB for Ghost or often physical moves that can be neutered by Scald or WoW for Dark. Jellicent is pretty lit right now in ORAS OU, but its not great in Gen 7 CAP, and Araquanid isnt either.
Grass: I have to go with the flow and say that Grass / Electric is the best option for Grass, providing comprehensive coverage for Water types, while also hitting Flying types and generally defensively patching up Grass in a lot of ways. Rotom-C has such a small movepool that this type combo is entirely unexplored.
Water: The recently mentioned Water / Bug piques my interest: It gives it a unique set of resistances compared to pex and Gastrodon, and Bug has some interesting STAB options. Other than that, I like Water / Ghost for it's uniqueness. It's a pretty ok STAB combo and the weaknesses brought about by Ghost take form in either a rare STAB for Ghost or often physical moves that can be neutered by Scald or WoW for Dark. Jellicent is pretty lit right now in ORAS OU, but its not great in Gen 7 CAP, and Araquanid isnt either.
Grass: I have to go with the flow and say that Grass / Electric is the best option for Grass, providing comprehensive coverage for Water types, while also hitting Flying types and generally defensively patching up Grass in a lot of ways. Rotom-C has such a small movepool that this type combo is entirely unexplored.
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The recent posts about CAP 25w seem to have confirmed the opinion I already expressed in my first post: Water pairs really well with a lot of stuff, especially defensively. Therefore, I have to add Water/Electric as well as very much so Water/Bug as dual typing options for CAP 25w that I'd really like to see.
On two sidenotes: Finally people have begun to join with me in criticizing Fire/Rock for its horrendous vulnerability. I still don't like this one and agree with everything Mx and koista12 have said about it. Also, I have to agree with the people saying that Fairy might not be a good typing for this project, however, only partially: While its STAB options are seriously limited and therefore as an offensive typing (especially for CAP 25f) it'll really struggle to get some good coordination with an ability later, I don't see too many problems with it as a defensive typing for either CAP 25w or CAP 25g (apart from me simply liking some other options for CAP 25w more), as defensive/support movepools aren't that much affected by typing.
On two sidenotes: Finally people have begun to join with me in criticizing Fire/Rock for its horrendous vulnerability. I still don't like this one and agree with everything Mx and koista12 have said about it. Also, I have to agree with the people saying that Fairy might not be a good typing for this project, however, only partially: While its STAB options are seriously limited and therefore as an offensive typing (especially for CAP 25f) it'll really struggle to get some good coordination with an ability later, I don't see too many problems with it as a defensive typing for either CAP 25w or CAP 25g (apart from me simply liking some other options for CAP 25w more), as defensive/support movepools aren't that much affected by typing.
I am 100% onboard with Grass/Normal - whether we make a powerful physical specialist, a strong defensive utility mon, or something else entirely, I think having a key Ghost immunity and keeping that desperately needed Ground and Grass resists will do a lot of good work for keeping the 'mon highly relevant. I think even "Sawsbuck with +50 BST" is not a bad place to be in the current meta, but the typing and potential abilities allow us to craft something truly great here.
This also "frees up" Electric. I think one thing that's emerged from this thread is that electric is uniquely suited toward abusing abilities, since in addition to its just generally great offensive and defensive properities it has...
- Moves with massive power and horrendous accuracy, to take advantage of Accuracy-boosting abilities.
- Recovery moves to benefit from abilities and other moves that care about recovery.
- Moves with powerful secondary effects, making it well-suited to abuse both Sheer Force and Serene Grace.
- Low-power moves with great secondary effects, to take advantage of Technician.
- A terrain that further augments the dangerous STAB damage.
- Tons of great utility moves; while this is a much lower consideration since any type could get the move via TM, T-wave is still among the most powerful status moves in the game.
It's clear to me that one of our Pokemon should be Electric, but I think that Fire or Water stand to gain a little more, surprisingly, since our goal with Grass is to make a highly specialized Pokemon.
This also "frees up" Electric. I think one thing that's emerged from this thread is that electric is uniquely suited toward abusing abilities, since in addition to its just generally great offensive and defensive properities it has...
- Moves with massive power and horrendous accuracy, to take advantage of Accuracy-boosting abilities.
- Recovery moves to benefit from abilities and other moves that care about recovery.
- Moves with powerful secondary effects, making it well-suited to abuse both Sheer Force and Serene Grace.
- Low-power moves with great secondary effects, to take advantage of Technician.
- A terrain that further augments the dangerous STAB damage.
- Tons of great utility moves; while this is a much lower consideration since any type could get the move via TM, T-wave is still among the most powerful status moves in the game.
It's clear to me that one of our Pokemon should be Electric, but I think that Fire or Water stand to gain a little more, surprisingly, since our goal with Grass is to make a highly specialized Pokemon.
While Grass/Electric is a promising type combination let's look at Grass/Normal. Grass/Normal seems to have a lot of potential in the current meta since it has the immunity to ghost it can't be trapped by Pajantom. It also walls Necturna since It has to rely on Stone Edge or HP to hit effectively, since those are its only non-Grass or Ghost moves if it uses Sketch for Shell Smash and you can switch in for free if you predict right.
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I'm sure the starters can share typings.
This is 100% correct. Like I state in the OP, the secondary typings of the starters should not be reasoned based upon or otherwise influence or be influenced by the secondary types of the other starters. Theoretically, it is possible for all three Pokemon to have the same secondary type, if that's what the community wanted.
My most general opinions on the types:
Fire - offensive, so needs good STAB coverage, weaknesses don't matter as much
Water - should have resistances to key types and few weaknesses, should not be weak to SR
Grass - should fit some unique role
25w: A very particular point: I want to agree with reachzero earlier that the existence of Toxapex has little bearing on whether we can make an interesting starter with Water/Poison. Some simple calculations show that with our BST, we can easily (if we want to) have more bulk than Toxapex, and since bulk is its main draw, we don't have to worry about being beaten by it. Also, Toxapex is a wall. It can stop sweepers, and can take negligible damage against things it counters, but it does not have any real offensive presence. One easy way that we could end up distinguishing ourselves is by giving CAP25w some ability to attack back. Another way is to have a different movepool. Toxapex relies on status from scald or toxic to be effective - we can put up dual screens or shuffle with dragon tail, or we can just focus all in on poison with Toxic Thread and Venoshock. There's lots of options.
25g: Grass/Electric is an appealing typing, but the fact that we can use neither the ground-resistance of grass, which is very valuable, nor the flying resistance of electric, means that our grass starter would need a decent amount of bulk, and it would make it more generally powerful rather than powerful in specific situations. If we are to make the grass type a unique and specialized Pokemon, we want the secondary type to assist with that, generally by giving resistances rather than neutralizing weaknesses. For a similar reason, though Grass/Rock is a powerful typing combination, I don't support it for this CAP.
Grass/Fighting is my first choice for the grass starter. The two types share enough kinds of moves in common to synergize with the ability. (healing, low-power, low-accuracy, contact, for example) Additionally, one of the near-unique features of the typing is that it simultaneously resists Ground and Rock (it also resists dark, grass, water, and electric). This makes for a much broader range of opponents it can potentially switch in on, which is useful as specialization, and for fitting into a niche. The fighting type also removes a weakness to bug-type moves, which is useful because U-turn is the most common such move, and is often off-stab or even off-stat bias. This means that resisting it matters less, but being weak to it is still bad.
Grass/Normal has decent offensive coverage, only missing out on steels and a few ghosts. Normal has arguably the most diverse set of moves, lending itself very easily to work with any move-interacting ability. The type itself keeps grass's important resistances to water and ground while gaining an immunity to ghost, a valuable trait when fighting Necturna.
Fire - offensive, so needs good STAB coverage, weaknesses don't matter as much
Water - should have resistances to key types and few weaknesses, should not be weak to SR
Grass - should fit some unique role
25w: A very particular point: I want to agree with reachzero earlier that the existence of Toxapex has little bearing on whether we can make an interesting starter with Water/Poison. Some simple calculations show that with our BST, we can easily (if we want to) have more bulk than Toxapex, and since bulk is its main draw, we don't have to worry about being beaten by it. Also, Toxapex is a wall. It can stop sweepers, and can take negligible damage against things it counters, but it does not have any real offensive presence. One easy way that we could end up distinguishing ourselves is by giving CAP25w some ability to attack back. Another way is to have a different movepool. Toxapex relies on status from scald or toxic to be effective - we can put up dual screens or shuffle with dragon tail, or we can just focus all in on poison with Toxic Thread and Venoshock. There's lots of options.
25g: Grass/Electric is an appealing typing, but the fact that we can use neither the ground-resistance of grass, which is very valuable, nor the flying resistance of electric, means that our grass starter would need a decent amount of bulk, and it would make it more generally powerful rather than powerful in specific situations. If we are to make the grass type a unique and specialized Pokemon, we want the secondary type to assist with that, generally by giving resistances rather than neutralizing weaknesses. For a similar reason, though Grass/Rock is a powerful typing combination, I don't support it for this CAP.
Grass/Fighting is my first choice for the grass starter. The two types share enough kinds of moves in common to synergize with the ability. (healing, low-power, low-accuracy, contact, for example) Additionally, one of the near-unique features of the typing is that it simultaneously resists Ground and Rock (it also resists dark, grass, water, and electric). This makes for a much broader range of opponents it can potentially switch in on, which is useful as specialization, and for fitting into a niche. The fighting type also removes a weakness to bug-type moves, which is useful because U-turn is the most common such move, and is often off-stab or even off-stat bias. This means that resisting it matters less, but being weak to it is still bad.
Grass/Normal has decent offensive coverage, only missing out on steels and a few ghosts. Normal has arguably the most diverse set of moves, lending itself very easily to work with any move-interacting ability. The type itself keeps grass's important resistances to water and ground while gaining an immunity to ghost, a valuable trait when fighting Necturna.
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