CAP 25 - Part 4 - Secondary Typings Discussion

[CharSiuEmboar]

1 (Grass). What are some underexplored types that have the potential to allow us to create an as-of-yet unseen niche for CAP 25g? How does this typing help us to explore our concept?
This concept is largely irrelevant of typing. Most niche's do not get built on offensive moves, so it's what else it can provide. Plus, with Jumbao, Tapu Bulu, Serperior, Kartana, and even there aren't many niche's available offensively that we can create without stepping on toes and thus being not unique; Bulky Offense Physical with a 30% power boost thanks to Grassy Terrain, Contrary Set Up Sweeper, and Self-Sun Setter. Each of these have access to some of the most powerful moves available to Grass, with heavily skewed stat allocations and ability combinations that allow certain things (Leaf Storm+Contrary, or Drought+Solar Beam). I mean, you could make a cause for a Solar Blade user but I'm not entirely sure that it would be overly different from being another combination of high phys offense with Drought, stepping on the toes of Kartana.

That said, one thing that I feel is something that isn't yet touched upon is a Status-based Momentum generator. Perhaps the biggest generator of momentum is Tomohawk, and we should be able to destabilize that by using Status, rather than by using attacks and debuffing. Grass/Dark has already been done by us with Malaconda, but Dark directly counters Prankster Haze, while providing perfect bait for Tomohawk to come in with. However, it doesn't have a particularly good way of dealing with it; no Flying/Fairy/Psychic types to hit it if it Roosts, and even if it gets Paralyzed when it tries to roost, it's Grass Blade and Knock Off are resisted.

Despite the above comments about Typing/Moves, it's disingenuous to not talk about how these two types have some excellent moves in their typing; Spore/Sleep Powder, Trop Kick,

One niche aspect that is virtually untouched by any aspect is the Doubles Metagame niche. Every starter has the "Pledge" moves; depending on what stats we have, there is plenty to play around with. We can choose which of the other two starter types we wish to partner with to use it, which is going to encourage a particular style of play. The problem with that is how do we choose which is the partner with, and what type plays around that? Do we want to support a Firetype or Watertype Grass Pledge. Are we going to Support a Fire Pledge, because that requires a Faster Grass Type - or do we want stab Grass Pledge on this mon, and have it slower than Water? And if so, which of those mon do we want to use as our partner; Mega-Charizard-Y is going to play very different to Ash-Greninja.

 

[Drapionswing]

Grass/Normal seems to be receiving a lot of support, but I think that Grass/Normal is not what we want for an offensive Grass type. Firstly, when comparing Grass/Normal as an offensive typing to other offensive Grasses, it's clear that just STAB wise, it's inferior to current Grass type's such as Necturna, Kartana or Jumbao. These 3 all have something very potent to bring to the table as offensive Grasses, whether it's all round defensive capabilities, neutral coverage or immense power. CAP25g needs to be able to do something these Pokemon can't do as offensive grasses, and I don't think Grass/Normal can do that unless we really push the bar, similar to what we did to Crucibelle. Being naturally beaten by Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Scizor, Kartana(if physical), Heatran, Magearna is just subpar. However, I feel as if Grass/Ice is a typing that is capable of carving this niche, due to Ice typing being fairly uncommon yet quite potent in the CAP Metagame right now. Grass typing supported with Ice allows you to to hit Celesteela, Ferrothorn and Kartana neutrally with your stab, while also scaring typical offensive grass answers such as Zapdos, Tornadus and Tomohawk(which is also a defensive answer). Grass/Ice also has the capabilities of pressuring bulky Grass Types such as Amoonguss, Tangrowth and Jumbao, two of which are excellent pivots which would otherwise be able to pivot in on Grass/Normal. An Ice type which can pressure water types is also pretty strong as seen by Kyurem-Black, thus showing this type combos prevalence even more.

Basically, I think building an offensive Pokemon through an already established offensive typing will be more effective than building one off of a meh typing. If we were to build a Grass/Normal Pokemon I think that it's very susceptible to falling off in the future due to the typing just not being very great, unless of course we treat this like Crucibelle which I'd rather we didn't.(I know that isn't a point that matters, but I think it's something we should definitely consider).

Will post more about other typings later

 

[Wulfanator]

That said, one thing that I feel is something that isn't yet touched upon is a Status-based Momentum generator. Perhaps the biggest generator of momentum is Tomohawk, and we should be able to destabilize that by using Status, rather than by using attacks and debuffing. Grass/Dark has already been done by us with Malaconda, but Dark directly counters Prankster Haze, while providing perfect bait for Tomohawk to come in with. However, it doesn't have a particularly good way of dealing with it; no Flying/Fairy/Psychic types to hit it if it Roosts, and even if it gets Paralyzed when it tries to roost, it's Grass Blade and Knock Off are resisted.

Dark does not have an immunity to prankster haze. Haze does not target a specific opponent, so it bypasses the prankster immunity.

 

[pythonSL]

4. Given our BST limitations, how can we intelligently use typing in order to prevent our starter trio from being outclassed by similar Grass, Fire, and Water Pokemon, even if they should share a somewhat similar role? Read: how can we use typing to carve out a new role in the CAP metagame?
For this post I'm gonna focus on CAP 25f and the typing I suggest is one that hasn't been mentioned enough in my opinion, being Fire/Ground. In creating an offensive fire type with CAP 25f, we have to focus on how it will maintain viability with a variety of strong fire types in the tier, primarily Volkraken, Heatran, both Mega Charizard forms, as well as but not limited to Volcarona and Victini. In order for CAP 25f to be successful in this tier it needs have a typing that allows it to come in on a wider variety of Pokemon while maintaining the strong STAB moves that make offensive fire types successful (Flash Cannon/Magma Storm Heatran, Fire Blast/Hydro Pump Volkraken). The additional ground typing would allow CAP 25f to come in on strong electric type threats like Tapu Koko and Magnezone and also more defensively oriented ones like Zapdos and Cyclohm. Mega Camerupt, the only Fire/Ground type currently available in the CAP metagame, is hindered greatly by it's base 20 speed stat, making it extremely easy to revenge kill, but CAP 25f would most likely not be hindered by this speed, being able to pivot in effectively as Camerupt has sometimes shown and threaten a large portion of the metagame with it's secondary ground STAB. This ability to potentially threaten Toxapex would make it better than Volkraken for a good chunk of teams and would make CAP 25f a potentially very viable offensive fire type. Fire/Ground for CAP 25f

 

[Mythlore]

Disclaimer: This is my first post in the CAP forum so I might be totally crazy with my inclusion. For the most part I'm here to state my opinion on the water secondary typing but my opinions on Grass and Fire are included as well.

1 (Grass). What are some underexplored types that have the potential to allow us to create an as-of-yet unseen niche for CAP 25g? How does this typing help us to explore our concept?
Grass/Normal
First of all, I'd like to agree with Drapionswing's above post that talks about Grass/Normal. While Normal stab allows us to break through some grass resists, it leaves us with a huge weakness to the many Steel types that populate the metagame. A normal typing also doesn't patch up any weakness of the grass type offensively or defensively. I don't see a Grass/Normal type filling a niche that isn't already filled

Grass/Electric
While I think this is an incredibly interesting type I don't feel that it would be good for CAP 25g to use this typing. While the electric typing gives a way to hit flying types and neutralizes the weakness, it also neutralizes the resistance to ground - one of the best things about the grass typing. My main concern about Grass/Electric is while it fills the niche of being able to hit Flying types, but because we are sacrificing the ground resist I feel the typing becomes much worse. If you are teambuilding and want to use a grass type it is usually as a ground or water check (or both) and by using this typing we lose one of those crucial resists.

Grass/Ice
This is currently my favorite grass type combination proposed. An Ice typing maintains the niche of being able to hit flying types, while preserving the grass resistance. The downside of this typing is that while Ice can hit flying for SE damage, flying can also hit CAP 25g for SE damage. While the Ice typing makes our defensive side much weaker (primarily through the rocks weakness) it allows us to have a more offensive pokemon that still has the ground resist.

1 (Fire). What types have healthy STAB movepools that they can coordinate with eligible abilities for offensive use? What types might be better suited to coordinate with an eligible ability as non-STAB coverage, due to their faults defensively or otherwise, and why?
Fire/Ice
While this was previously my favorite typing for CAP 25f, a very well written post by Gmars has changed my mind. While Fire/Ice is a fantastic offensive typing and totally unexplored, the typing has massive weaknesses defensively and few strengths. The typing has four resistances in Grass, Fairy, Ice and Bug. While the bug resistance is mildly useful for u-turn, none of these types are common enough for CAP 25f to pivot in on to use its offensive typing.

Fire/Electric
Contrary to Ice, Electric gives a variety of important resistances including Flying (Tomohawk, Tornadus), Electric (Tapu Koko, Zapdos) and Steel (Heatran, Kartana) while only increasing the ground weakness from 2x to 4x. It also covers Fire's inability to hit water types which gives CAP 25f an important niche over Volkraken. Similarly to Grass/Electric, this typing also is barely explored with the only Fire/Electric type being Rotom-Heat. While Fire/Ground has a similar set of advantages to electric, the typing is more narrow than electric with less options for abilities and moves.

1 (Water). What types can make effective use of defensively-oriented moves that coordinate with eligible abilities?
While most people have dismissed Water/Poison due to not wanting CAP 25w to be overshadowed by Toxapex, I feel that there is plenty of room for another Water/Poison type. As most people know, Toxapex is an extremely passive wall that only has two choices in moveset: Knock Off or Scald and Toxic or Toxic Spikes. This leaves plenty of room for a Water/Poison type that isn't passive and we can enable that through a variety of abilities. Both Poison and Water attacks commonly have secondary effects enabling Serene Grace and Sheer Force, and while not necessary, it synergizes with abilities like Corrosion and Merciless (if we are even allowed to use this one) more effectively. Even if a lack of attack or special attack is a concern due to the limitation of being a starter, even a mediocre attack can force opponents out through the secondary effects of moves like Liquidation. There are only three fully evolved Water/Poison types currently in the game with those being Tentacruel, Toxapex and Qwilfish. Of those three, only Tentacruel and Toxapex have recently touched OU. With only two niches being filled (and Tentacruel no longer filling its own niche at a competitive level) there is plenty of room for us to create a Water/Poison type that has its own niche in the CAP metagame.

 

[Hakking]

A normal typing also doesn't patch up any weakness of the grass type offensively or defensively. I don't see a Grass/Normal type filling a niche that isn't already filled

While Ice secondary typing does improve the offensive nature of CAP25g, it's important to remember the concept being addressed in CAP25. Normal typing interfaces well with -ate abilities. A Grass/Normal can capitalize on refrigerate to provide pseudo-STAB Ice attacks without suffering from many of the weaknesses inherent in Ice typing. An -ate ability would also remove the Normal typing of useful Normal attacks that could otherwise be blocked by Ghosts, such as Rapid Spin and Extreme Speed. The diverse nature of Normal attacks also benefits the diversity of CAP25g's possible move sets, even without an -ate ability.
And, although this is admittedly a weak argument, I like Normal for the simple fact that it's an unused type in CAP.

 

[Mythlore]

Normal typing interfaces well with -ate abilities.

Technically this isn't true. A Normal typing has negative synergy with an -ate ability as you would lose your primary STAB. For example, a Grass/Normal type has 1.5x multiplier on both Grass and Normal type moves for a (not literal) total of 3x multiplier. A Grass/Normal type with for example, Glaciate, has a 1.5x multiplier on Grass type moves and a 1.2x multiplier for Normal type moves as they switch to Ice type (to my knowledge they do not get normal stab, just ice stab) resulting in a total 2.7x multiplier.

While a Grass/Normal type leaves plenty of viable abilities for our concept, I feel that the typing will have a hard time differentiating itself from other offensive grass types in the tier as well as have a hard time breaking common steel types in the OU tier.

 

[Gross Sweep]

Grass/Normal seems to be receiving a lot of support, but I think that Grass/Normal is not what we want for an offensive Grass type. Firstly, when comparing Grass/Normal as an offensive typing to other offensive Grasses, it's clear that just STAB wise, it's inferior to current Grass type's such as Necturna, Kartana or Jumbao. These 3 all have something very potent to bring to the table as offensive Grasses, whether it's all round defensive capabilities, neutral coverage or immense power. CAP25g needs to be able to do something these Pokemon can't do as offensive grasses, and I don't think Grass/Normal can do that unless we really push the bar, similar to what we did to Crucibelle. Being naturally beaten by Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Scizor, Kartana(if physical), Heatran, Magearna is just subpar. However, I feel as if Grass/Ice is a typing that is capable of carving this niche, due to Ice typing being fairly uncommon yet quite potent in the CAP Metagame right now. Grass typing supported with Ice allows you to to hit Celesteela, Ferrothorn and Kartana neutrally with your stab, while also scaring typical offensive grass answers such as Zapdos, Tornadus and Tomohawk(which is also a defensive answer). Grass/Ice also has the capabilities of pressuring bulky Grass Types such as Amoonguss, Tangrowth and Jumbao, two of which are excellent pivots which would otherwise be able to pivot in on Grass/Normal. An Ice type which can pressure water types is also pretty strong as seen by Kyurem-Black, thus showing this type combos prevalence even more.

Basically, I think building an offensive Pokemon through an already established offensive typing will be more effective than building one off of a meh typing. If we were to build a Grass/Normal Pokemon I think that it's very susceptible to falling off in the future due to the typing just not being very great, unless of course we treat this like Crucibelle which I'd rather we didn't.(I know that isn't a point that matters, but I think it's something we should definitely consider).

Will post more about other typings later

So I like a lot of what your posts has to say, it's very concise and well put. However, the logic you're basing your arguments off of seems flawed to me. You make the assumption our Grass starter must be offensive in nature, which just isn't true at this phase. From either ReachZero or EpicUmbreon the only official we note we have specifically to grass in this phase is:

(Grass). What are some underexplored types that have the potential to allow us to create an as-of-yet unseen niche for CAP 25g? How does this typing help us to explore our concept?

Meaning our mission at this point is creating a mon with an unseen niche, not an offensive Grass type with strong dual stabs pressuring the meta (it can be, but by no means is that a certainty). At this stage in discussion we don't have a clear cut offensive/defensive path chosen, so making your argument based on Grass/Ice > Grass/Normal when it comes to offensive capabilities is a dangerous game. Also while it's not wise to take any sort of potential movepool into account at this stage, it's pretty hard to overlook the rich history of normal types having insane coverage, making it hard to close the book on a Grass/Normal not being able to get the moves it needs to be successful in what ever niche we decide upon. I honestly think we wont know what that niche is until we choose an ability in the next phase, so I don't think you can really axe any typing from consideration for Grass unless it's due to limited ability options - unless leaders say otherwise of course. That being said I do really like what you've brought up about Grass/Ice, I just would have preferred if you focused on the advantages of Grass/Ice solely (there are definitely enough advantages to make a stand alone post) instead of bringing up Grass/Normal not functioning properly in an undecided upon role.

 

[11bug]

1 (Grass). What are some underexplored types that have the potential to allow us to create an as-of-yet unseen niche for CAP 25g? How does this typing help us to explore our concept?

To echo earlier sentiments, my favorite discussed typings for this category are Grass/Rock and Grass/Normal. I think the most important thing about the Grass typing is that we pick something that allows us to find a great specialized role for this mon. Grass/Rock gives us the opportunity to be really creative around creating an offensive juggernaut with abilities like Rock Head or Skill Link. My biggest qualm here is that we're effectively forced into being physical, due to Rock's underwhelming special movepool.

Grass/Normal has the variety of moves to give us a lot of freedom around how we choose to specialize this Pokemon, much more than any alternative. Certainly underexplored, the Normal type isn't frequently used at all (all of 2 OU Pokemon are normal type). I think this opens up many more opportunities for us moving forward and will make for exciting stages for the rest of CAP.

1 (Water). What types can make effective use of defensively-oriented moves that coordinate with eligible abilities?

I have to show support for Water/Bug and Water/Dark. I think Bug has been undersold as a typing in terms of having defensively oriented moves. STAB Lunge, Leech Life and U-Turn are all solid options alongside some great defensive type synergy. We haven't seen a Pokemon that can really use this typing defensively yet and I think it would be an excellent pick.

Dark has moves like Pursuit, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, or Snarl that can be used defensively. The two typings together have yet to be used on a defensive Pokemon, instead with us seeing Greninja, Crawdaunt and Sharpedo all charging in offensively. We have a unique opportunity here to try something really different with Water/Dark.

 

[Sensei Luke]

I'd like to mention the typing for Fire/Electric for the fire based starter with the abilities of levitate, rock head, and magnet pull. I feel like this typing is very unexplored given the fact that only rotom heat has the typing and its move pool is very limited. The fire type move pool, along with the electric type's is very extensive on the offensive end, both physically and specially with moves like flare blitz and fire blast for the fire moves and wild charge and thunderbolt for electric type move examples. The electric type also allows for this mon to hit water types super effectively which will help against mons like volkraken, greninja, arghonaut, and naviathan. For the ability of levitate, it would take away the glaring four times weakness to ground, which would be very beneficial for the typing due to mons like colossoil, fidgit, and landorus therian. For the ability of rock head, it would allow for the mon to use flare blitz and wild charge without having to deal without the residual damage from the recoil of those moves. The magnet pull ability would allow for this mon to have a great chnace to KO mons like cawmodore, kitsunoh, and naviathan, all who would more than likely switch out on a fire type. Also, Tapu Koko is the only offensive electric type really used in the meta, so using this typing would help to fill the gap there.

 

[Deck Knight]

I've had a chance to think things over a little more, and one thing I'm surprised at is how little discussion CAP25w has been getting.

Let's talk defensive and CAP 25w.

People have mentioned Water/Steel because it's a great generic defensive type, however I see a lot more to it than just that. Water and Steel have a very eclectic mix of secondary effects, mostly focusing on the physical stats (Attack raises, Defense Drops, etc.) If this CAP were just about being fat and restoring HP, this typing would be pretty good, but it really, really does have incredibly pressuring options. As I said in an earlier post, defensive does not mean passive. With the right ability to draw it out, Water/Steel could be a steady threat that slowly breaks down opposing teams through attrition.

Another type that is similar to the proposed Water/Bug above but might be more controversial is Water/Grass. It's a perfectly sound defensive type, and currently only shared with Ludicolo which is kind of a generic Pokemon. The Ground resistance that gets picked up here is great against Zygarde, while the movepool opens itself up to even more options for longevity. Unlike Bug's trade for an SR weakness, Water/Grass is neutral to SR and also enjoys the new Electric neutrality.

Finally, Water/Normal remains a type with a lot of neutrality, but also has a lot of bulky defensive options and STAB priority. STAB Facade is a great boon with Poison Heal, and Water/Normal is relatively good neutral coverage. As stated above with Water/Steel, Water and Normal have great slow debuff options that could certainly help win battles of attrition or force switch ins. Razor Shell, Liquidation, and Crush Claw all have significant chance to lower Defense and can be followed up by priority.

I think Water/Poison is also viable, but with Tentacruel in older Gens and Toxapex in this generation I feel like its a niche with way too much history and competition to be a good choice. Water/Ground is similar, but has Mega Swampert, Gastrodon, and Quagsire as examples.

 

[Dece1t]

I've had a chance to think things over a little more, and one thing I'm surprised at is how little discussion CAP25w has been getting.

Another type that is similar to the proposed Water/Bug above but might be more controversial is Water/Grass. It's a perfectly sound defensive type, and currently only shared with Ludicolo which is kind of a generic Pokemon. The Ground resistance that gets picked up here is great against Zygarde, while the movepool opens itself up to even more options for longevity. Unlike Bug's trade for an SR weakness, Water/Grass is neutral to SR and also enjoys the new Electric neutrality.

I got into that a while ago, and I know that fell out of conversation, so I'll re-reference it here. EpicUmbreon29 did pitch in and say that the starters can share types, so that isn't against the rules. Everything else you said though is very well, said, my only quarrel about Water/Steel is I don't want to run into that same, albeit much more minor, issue by competing with Naviathan (primarily its defensive Scald CM set) (and to a much much lesser extent, Empoleon).

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

As of right now, I think my favorite types so far are Grass/Normal, Fire/Electric, and Water.

I actually think being a bit more broad for this Grass type is a really good idea, since we do not known our niche as of current and the more options we have the better that part of the process will be. This is where the Grass/Normal type really really shines in my opinion. Normal types have some of the most interesting moves in the game, which could lead to some very unique options when we decide on what niche to actually fill. Normal types, due to their expansive movepools, are also compatible with a ton of different abilities, which will keep Secondary Ability stage very interesting in the choices that we could be given with it. Finally, its typing is actually quite nice in the metagame, as it doesn't have to worry nearly as much against Ghosts, and can have some winning matchups thanks to the Grass typing. I think this is a solid choice of an ability, and a better candidate than most others suggested. Grass/Electric is nice and all, as it has a solid typing and a lot of possible moves to experiment with, but it can sometimes be left with weird matchups, and I personally don't like having more than one of each secondary type, as I feel we would tread too similar of ground. Grass/Ice is also a very appealing type to me, as it is amazing offensively and has some great tools, but the defensive aspect makes it way less appealing. Second favorite is currently Grass/Rock, just because of how unexplored of a typing it is with both the typing itself and the movepool, even though it only has one good resistance.

Fire/Electric, although personally treading too close to Plasmanta territory which is completely my biased opinion, I think is a very solid offensive type for the metagame. Of course it suffers from a pretty serious Ground weakness and its overall resistances could be a bit better, but I think this is something that can mostly be avoided with proper execution. Its STAB is quite solid as is, and I think it will work beautifully as an offensive mon. Electric also gets a lot of really solid options in terms of its movepool possibilities, with Volt Switch, Parabolic Charge, Wild Charge and plenty more to capitalize on an ability of choice. I think it is a solid option and would turn into a great offensive mon, ground weakness aside. Fire/Rock I also like because of its options, but I feel that its movepool and weaknesses are much worse than Fire/Electric.

Water is honestly a very hard column to figure out, so I think the best one is a pure Water typing. While I initially supported Water/Psychic, I will concede that differentiating it from Slowking, who is very solid in CAP, would be a herculean task that would likely still be overshadowed. I feel a pure Water would still be a great option for this CAP, although it is mostly personal taste. Its weaknesses, while there and possibly common, are still managable and the possible movepool options are also there, along side anything we might give it.

Those are my thoughts right now, but I don't really want repeated types in the secondary slots for the CAPs because A) thats traditionally not happened in vanilla Pokemon unless you count the mono-types of gen 2 and 5, which I don't and B) I think we would end up treading on too common of ground for the process, like we would resort to Volt Switch for both the Fire/Electric and the Grass/Electric. I understand that our process is competitively focused, but I think type diversity is still very important.

 

[snake]

I am a fan of Grass / Normal, but Grass / Ice shouldn't be under-appreciated either. The defensive typing is mostly terrible, but if you can look past that and to the offensive typing, it's a pretty fantastic typing. Access to priority Ice Shard and STAB Ice Beam is very appealing when you have Grass-type STAB coverage to hit most Water-types. There has been discussion on the diversity of Normal-type moves, and Refrigerate can take advantage of those and make them an arguably better STAB type. While Grass / Ice doesn't necessitate Refrigerate, we don't automatically lock ourselves out of Normal's diverse attacking movepool by picking Grass / Ice.

One typing I do not like though is Grass / Rock. It removes much of the utility of being a Grass-type - losing the Ground resistance so Zygarde breaks you better, the Grass resistance for a Kartana switch-in, the Water resistance for Ash-Greninja and Volkraken, etc without really bringing much to the table. If we want the qualities that Grass / Rock brings, then we really should go for Grass / Steel, but as some people have mentioned, we already have a defensive Grass / Steel and an offensive one. This isn't make it impossible to make a Grass / Steel, but we would need to focus on differentiating it exclusively in later stages, as we're already trying to differentiate here.

 

[gibygiby]

Some comments on what has been discussed so far:

All typings, each to a different degree, have moves that work well with abilities. Both for:

• Our starter's primary typings
• All other typings mentioned

This means our choice of secondary typing will mostly be defined by the assigned role and a bit of general personal preference (due to lack of clear frontrunners).

For our roles:

• Fire and Offensive: This is pretty straight forward as offense types are easy to find. There are some good combos so far. (personnally I like Fire/Ground and Fire/Rock)
• Water and Defensive: There are a lot of types that helps this, but a lot of them are already viable in the metagame. More on that later. I am a fan of Water/Ice because while it doesn't resist a lot, it has enough resists to be bulky only by virtue of typing and the Ice type makes it easier to threaten things, which can help in a defensive role. It's not just about taking hits, you have to respond to whats in front of you.
• Grass and Unique Role/Niche: This idea is vague and difficult to define at this stage which is why we may be having difficulty. On defining a niche with typing alone, I like Grass/Electric since it enables 25g to take on flying types that it would normally struggle with. Another option may be Grass/Fire, as it would enable 25g to take on steel types better than the other grass types in the metagame. The 2 types play well together for coverage as well. This would need to be offensive in nature to differentiate from Pyroark, however.

In addition, remember that we will be slightly limited by stats. As such, lack of competition with the given typing is necessary. That's why typings with the role we are trying to create that are already viable in the metagame such as Water/Poison, Water/Ground, Water/Steel, Water/Electric should be AVOIDED since all of them have successful defensive options already in place.

 

[SuessMD]

I don't have much experience with this, but these are my thoughts on some of the commonly discussed types for 25g and 25w. Some of these have been discussed extensively already, I tried to keep those brief. (I failed.)

Grass/Normal: My personal favorite for 25g. I don't think it's role is well defined yet, so the large and diverse movepool typical for Normal types is promising.

Grass/Ice: If 25g goes in an offensive direction, this may be a better typing than Grass/Normal. The benefit of this typing is that it gives great offensive coverage while retaining resistances to Ground, Water, and Electric.

Grass/Electric & Grass/Rock: The biggest issue I see with both of these options is that they don't have Ground resistance, which is one of the better traits of the Grass typing. If we do sacrifice the Ground resistance, I prefer Grass/Electric over Grass/Rock for the movepool and the resistances. (I also think Rotom-Mow done right would be very interesting, but that's just personal preference.)

Water: Mono-water is a good defensive typing, and certainly worth considering - Alomomola for higher tiers could be interesting. It risks being outclassed by Pokemon with good secondary typings, but I think good execution of the Ability Actualization concept could easily counter that.

Water/Dark: As mentioned by 11bug earlier, there are no defensive Water/Dark Pokemon. It increases the number of types that can it can be hit by super-effectively, most unfortunately Fighting and Fairy, but it boasts a respectable 6 resistances and 1 immunity. It's a decent typing, and I think we could really explore new territory without constantly questioning whether we are going to be outclassed by another defensive Pokemon with the same type.

Water/Dragon: This is another interesting option that is pretty much unexplored, since Kingdra is never used outside of the rain. It has relatively few resistances, but also few weaknesses. With the right ability and stats, this could be a very interesting typing. One point of concern is that Dragon has a relatively limited movepool, and nothing that is particularly good defensively other than Dragon Tail.

Water/Grass: Similar to Water/Dragon, the only Pokemon with this typing is strictly a rain abuser, so there's a lot for us to explore here. The Electric-neutrality and Ground-resistance are useful. Grass also has a good defensive movepool.

Water/Poison: I was initially skeptical, because Toxapex is already a top-tier defensive Pokemon with this type. Later discussion convinced me that it might be possible to differentiate 25w by aiming to create a less passive Pokemon. Considering our BST limitations, I'm concerned that in the effort to give it some offensive power, we will end up with a Pokemon that is mediocre all around. There are some interesting options to work with this typing in the Ability stage, but we would need to proceed with great caution.

There have been a variety of other types for thrown around for 25w, understandably so. Water/Steel and Water/Ground are both excellent defensive types, and although there are already defensive Pokemon with those typings, if we can justify Water/Poison, we could also probably do a unique take on either of those types. I personally prefer the more unique typings because I'm curious how they will fit into the game.

I'm not sure what I think about 25f yet.

If I had to vote on my three favorite types right now, I would probably say Grass/Normal, Fire/Electric, and Water/Dark. But I'm looking forward to seeing further discussion.

 

[snake]

I'd like to speak on Fire / Electric too - although the Ground-type weakness hurts, it certainly isn't breaking the mon. Fantastic coverage aside, it can also work off of Galvanize for a good physical movepool, something that Fire and Electric-types would otherwise struggle with due to Flare Blitz and Wild Charge's recoil damage. Otherwise, we have a few abilities for those recoil moves if we so choose, and good special attacking options + pivoting if we go special. I still think Galvanize is the most interesting, but Fire / Electric definitely puts us in a very good position for the abilities stage, for sure.

Most of the water typings so far will work pretty well. I'm not sure about Water / Dark typing - it sounds good for a tank but probably not for a defensive Pokemon. Strong Knock Off and Pursuit are very worthwhile only with a good Attack stat backing it up.

 

[NumberCruncher]

That's why typings with the role we are trying to create that are already viable in the metagame such as Water/Poison, Water/Ground, Water/Steel, Water/Electric should be AVOIDED since all of them have successful defensive options already in place.

Water/Steel really doesn't have a good defensive option though. Naviathan's defensive sets see less than 8% usage even among the higher rated ladder users. Its offensive Dragon Dance sets are just generally better. Even in Gen 6, where Naviathan's Dragon Dance set was awful and it didn't have to compete with Toxapex, Naviathan struggled as a defensive option. Also, on a less contraversial note, Empoleon isn't good either thanks to lack of recovery.

 

[Warren685]

Water/Poison, Water/Ground, Water/Steel, Water/Electric should be AVOIDED since all of them have successful defensive options already in place.

Just because the type has been made before doesn't mean we can't do it any different

 

[Magic Mayhem Maiden]

So I would like to disagree with the Grass/Normal type. Everyone is praising it for 2 points: ability to beat relevant ghost types and the wide variety of moves. For the first point, yes Necturna can't really do anything, but neither can you. The immunity goes vice versa, and your Grass moves will be not good for the same reason for you. And a +2 Necturna can 2KO you if you haven't invested in enough bulk which I will not add for not polljumping (um please no) if it has Stone Edge. You might say it can miss, but that's mostly nullified by the high crit chance. So unless you have any way to stop it by moves or have enough bulk to survive, it is not a good check/counter, and if it has bulk then you have to sacrifice damage of coverage moves. And this applies only if it is a setup Necturna. If it's banded, good luck surviving some high power SE moves in the forms of V-create or Dragon Ascent. Against Pajantom, yes you are not trapped, but offensive versions need to watch out for the Z-Outrage which will hurt you for a lot. Tankier versions of this Grass/Normal also need to watch out for the Z-move as well as Toxic/Heal Block defensive Pajantoms. Also, Grass type moves are resisted by Pajantom, so you also have no good STAB options there.
For varied movepool point, in the tier list, except for Chansey, not a single normal type Pokemon is on the tier list (Chansey, being a wall, will definitely not use any BP attacks). Also, basically no normal types that are competitive can actually use Extreme Speed or Shell Smash or any "limited" moves of normal which are good. The only move which is generally limited to normal types is Boomburst, which I will admit is a good move. Offensively, this type combo is walled by a single type, steel, and being walled by a single type is depressing.
Defensively, a fighting weakness is barely noticable, but with no additional resistances, it's basically a normal Grass type. And there is 2 mono Grass type, one which is a stall breaker/cleaner and one aswhich is a tank/pivot. The ghost immunity is not very helpful, as the fighting weakness not very detrimental. Having to compete with 2 mono Grass Pokemons for usability, which both are in B rank, means that this type is really not great compared to other types. People also bring up ground resistance when comparing to Grass/Electric, but it can save you against flying-types, and Grass/Ice can kill the relevant ground types and others.

conclusion? People think that slapping normal type on any other types will make a lot of differences, when it doesn't. It might make a difference with Ghost, but for Grass with no interaction with fighting or ghost, it does nothing

So this post might not be polished, since I'm writing on a phone

 

[snake]

So I would like to disagree with the Grass/Normal type. Everyone is praising it for 2 points: ability to beat relevant ghost types and the wide variety of moves. For the first point, yes Necturna can't really do anything, but neither can you. The immunity goes vice versa, and your Grass moves will be not good for the same reason for you. And a +2 Necturna can 2KO you if you haven't invested in enough bulk which I will not add for not polljumping (um please no) if it has Stone Edge. You might say it can miss, but that's mostly nullified by the high crit chance. So unless you have any way to stop it by moves or have enough bulk to survive, it is not a good check/counter, and if it has bulk then you have to sacrifice damage of coverage moves. And this applies only if it is a setup Necturna. If it's banded, good luck surviving some high power moves. Against Pajantom, yes you are not trapped, but offensive versions need to watch out for the Z-Outrage you for a lot. Tankier versions also need to watch out for it and possibly Toxic/Heal Block defensive versions. Also, Grass type moves are resisted by Pajantom.
For varied movepool point, in the tier list, except for Chansey, not a single normal type Pokemon is on the tier list (Chansey, being a wall, will definitely not use any BP attacks). Also, basically no normal types that are competitive can actually use Extreme Speed or Shell Smash or any "limited" moves of normal which are good. The only move which is generally limited to normal types is Boomburst, which I will admit is a good move. Offensively, this type combo is walled by a single type, steel, and being walled by a single type is depressing.
Defensively, a fighting weakness is barely noticable, but with no additional resistances, it's basically a normal Grass type. And there is 2 mono Grass type, one which is a stall breaker/cleaner and one which is a tank/pivot. The ghost immunity is not very helpful, as the fighting weakness not very detrimental. Having to compete with 2 mono Grass Pokemons for usability, which both are in B rank, means that this type is really not great compared to other types. People also bring up ground resistance when comparing to Grass/Electric, but it can save you against flying-types, and Grass/Ice can kill the relevant ground types and others.

conclusion? People think that slapping normal type on any other types will make a lot of differences, when it doesn't.

For what it's worth, forcing Necturna to run Stone Edge relieves a lot of pressure put on teambuilding since it's not running Substitute, a much harder move to play around, almost all the time. Also, if the intent is to resist and beat Necturna, we can speculate that the Grass / Normal will have coverage for this purpose. Same goes for Pajantom and it resisting Grass / Normal coverage - if the purpose is to deal with Ghost-types, it'll have the necessary coverage. Choice Band Necturna is also not a relevant set atm and, more importantly, not the focus of the Necturna conversation by a long shot - the focus is on the Shell Smash / Phantom Force / Power Whip / Substitute @ Ghostium Z set. I'm not sure what limit you're seeing on "good" Normal-type moves either - everything's fair game in the project. If STAB Extreme Speed is where we want to go with the project, then there's nothing really limiting us, unless the Pokemon itself is becoming too powerful. How other Normal-types have access to Normal-type moves shouldn't affect Grass / Normal. I'm also not sure why being walled by a single typing is "depressing" either - Mega Crucibelle's STAB coverage is walled by two typings (Ground and Steel) and it's certainly not depressing (at least, not when you're using Mega Crucibelle). While it's not my favorite typing, Grass / Normal certainly can contend with other typings like Grass / Ice and Grass / Electric.

 

[CoolMan6001]

Water/Electric should be AVOIDED since all of them have successful defensive options already in place.

I thought Washer Rotom died out though?

 

[Mr Holiday]

So, I've just been hanging out, watching the conversation unfold, and I have a few thoughts to throw out here.

I think a lot of people are underestimating the viability of Water/Poison because of the defensive success of Toxapex, without considering the Type's real merits, what it has to contribute to this Concept specifically, and how well it slots into our intended role and what we've discussed previously. Yes, Toxapex exists, and no, we're never going to beat it. We shouldn't even try. As I said earlier on (if any one even reads my posts), Toxapex achieves it's stellar bulk because of it's highly focused Stat distribution. It only has 495 BST, and pours almost every point into Defense and Special Defense, leaving nothing of substance in it's offensive Stats. By contrast, CAP25w is required by the limitations set up by our Framework to have a more balanced Stat distribution. We can't go higher than 126, and we can't go lower than 60-something, I believe. Even if we wanted to, we couldn't make a Toxapex clone, nor could we make a better/worse version of it. So instead of focusing on how much CAP25w would have in common with Toxapex as a Water/Poison Type, we should do what we said we would do earlier on in the Concept Assessment and focus on differentiating CAP25w from the other eighty-billion or so bulky Water Types.

Deck Knight hit it on the head when he said "Defensive doesn't mean Passive." Let's give this thing some teeth, give it something better to do with it's time then spam Recover and throw hot water at things all day. Water/Poison is actually a surprisingly competent offensive Typing, only really missing out on Ferrothorn, Toxapex itself and Kartana, and Dragalge because I think you see him sometimes, too. Even just giving CAP25w 70 or 80 points in one of it's offensive Stats would let it do some damage and differentiate itself from the almost completely passive Toxapex. Water/Poison also has a large amount of overlapping moves that can be bolstered by various Abilities, giving us plenty to work with in terms of fulfilling the Concept. We don't need to make it an offensive powerhouse. In fact, we shouldn't. But we can make it a sturdy, defensive Pokemon that has enough offensive presence to carve out a niche for itself. Even if we only run one attacking move, Water and Poison both have useful coverage by themselves, and it would give CAP25w a reason to exist that other bulky Water Types lack.

Another thought that I've been having is that, when it comes to CAP25g, people are to focused on making it generally good, instead of doing what we set out to do and make it a specialist. Again, as I said before, if you're generally good, you're not a specialist, you're a generalist. Now, Grass/Normal has some viability in this regard, as it effectively deals with most Necturna sets amiably, but I worry about potentially not being able to actually get rid of it. Unless we give CAP25g some Fire/Ice/Flying/Bug coverage (which I'm not saying we can't, it's just what we would have to do), Grass/Normal can't really beat Grass/Ghost. However, the idea of targeting one problem Pokemon isn't a bad one. As I'm sure everyone is aware, Landorus-T is a problem that basically everyone has to deal with at some point or another. Grass/Ice stands out to me as a potential solution to that problem. While it would still be weak to Flying STAB, Landorus-T isn't exactly a speed demon, and there are other ways to hit it first besides raw Speed, meaning it would be relatively easy to build a Pokemon that can eliminate it, or at least force it out, with strong Ice Type STAB. Now, would a Grass/Ice CAP25g built specifically to kill Landorus-T be good at much else/ No, probably not. But, as I said before, that's the point of a specialist. A specialist is, based on the dictionary definition, "A person who concentrates primarily on a particular subject or activity; a person highly skilled in a specific and restricted field." If we want a specialist, we should make a specialist. Killing Landorus-T is a very specific niche that, to my knowledge, is unfilled. Let's fill it.

To round out the three, I'm really starting to get behind Fire/Dragon. While it's true, Dragon doesn't have a vast array of Moves, there are a few that overlap nicely with Fire in terms of Ability Coordination, and together the two provide an almost unrivaled STAB combination. Unless I'm mistaken, neutrality to both Fairy and Ice is nothing any other OU/CAP Dragon has access to (Other than Mega Charizard X, of course, but you have to use up a Mega slot for him), and Dragon STAB helps patch holes in Fire's coverage. If we did Fire/Dragon, we would probably want to go the special route, to help differentiate us from Mega Charizard X, but I don't think that's a bad thing, as both Fire and Dragon have solid special attacking options with some notable Ability Coordination potential. I'm also a fan of Fire/Electric, mainly for the wide array of Abilities we could go with to Coordinate with. While I like the STAB coverage of Fire/Dragon a bit more, Fire/Electric is nothing to sneeze at, either, and comes with the added benefit of a surprising number of resistances, giving it ample opportunity to switch in and get to work. The 4X Ground weakness is a problem, but as reachzero said, I don't think it's one that would ruin CAP25f.

 

[Frostbiyt]

Yes, Toxapex exists, and no, we're never going to beat it. We shouldn't even try. As I said earlier on (if any one even reads my posts), Toxapex achieves it's stellar bulk because of it's highly focused Stat distribution. It only has 495 BST, and pours almost every point into Defense and Special Defense, leaving nothing of substance in it's offensive Stats. By contrast, CAP25w is required by the limitations set up by our Framework to have a more balanced Stat distribution. We can't go higher than 126, and we can't go lower than 60-something, I believe. Even if we wanted to, we couldn't make a Toxapex clone, nor could we make a better/worse version of it.

We could make a better Toxapex if we wanted to because Toxapex actually has a very poorly optimized defensive spread. Its current spread of 50/152/142 adds up to a total of 344 Stat points dedicated to defense. A spread of 126/93/79 is nearly identical defensively, fits within the stat range required by starters, and only uses 298 stat points.

Calcs

50/152/142:
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 85-102 (28 - 33.6%) -- 95.8% chance to 4HKO
0- SpA Ferrothorn Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 40-48 (13.2 - 15.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
126/93/79:
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 129-153 (28.3 - 33.6%) -- 94% chance to 4HKO
0- SpA Ferrothorn Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 60-72 (13.1 - 15.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever

I'm using Ferrothorn because it just happened to be the Pokemon that was already selected in the damage calculator.

I do agree though that a water/poison type wouldn't necessarily have to be just a better Toxapex, I'm just pointing out your faulty reasoning in this paragraph.

 

[Wulfanator]

I wish I had more time to contribute to the discussion, but I've had no time over the last 5 days.

1 (Water). What types can make effective use of defensively-oriented moves that coordinate with eligible abilities?

Sticking with the trend I’ve already establish with my previous posts, it is time to address CAP 25w. With CAP 25w focusing primarily on defensive potential, my analysis of water-typing will focus solely on that characteristic. Defensively, water-types struggle with only grass and electric-type attacks. Water-types also have valuable resistances to fire, water, ice, and steel-type attacks. Defensively, Ground, Dragon, and Steel compliment the limited weaknesses water already has and offers additional/strengthens existing resistances. Unlike before, order doesn’t matter nearly as much. I’ll also discuss Pure Water as water is a strong defensive typing on its own.

• Ground: Water/Ground only has a singular weakness to grass. It also trades the resistance to ice and water for resistances to poison and rock while gaining an immunity to electric attacks. We see how valued a type combination water/ground is with how often Gastrodon is used in the tier.
• Dragon: Water/Dragon is a unique type combination in my mind as it trades both its grass and electric weaknesses for a weakness to dragon and fairy. Water/Dragon loses its resistance to ice but has its resistances to fire and water increased to 4x resistances.
• Steel: This type combination has been over discussed at this point. Water/Steel loses its weakness to grass attacks but gains weaknesses to fighting and ground. Steel-typing slaps a ton of resistances onto water-typing. It loses a resistance to fire in exchange for resistances to normal, flying, rock, bug, psychic, dragon, and fairy. It also increases the resistances to steel and ice to 4x resistances. Water/Steel would also gain an immunity to poison.
• Pure Water: Having only 2 weakness and 4 resistance, water-types have great natural defensive typing. Key resistances to fire, water and ice make them strong assets for any team. This would be a great opportunity to introduce a second single-type CAP to the tier.

There isn’t too much to discuss when it comes to defensive typing since the true strength of defensive Pokémon show in combination with ability and movepool. Any of these type combinations could be used to worked to highlight different strengths.