To touch on grass/steel, it seems to me to be redundant from a concept perspective when compared to grass/rock. They both bring low-power priority, a high power inaccurate physical move, and the occasional good option for Sheer force, with the utility movepools being similar. Rock would bring a special technician move and a more impressive secondary effect in AncientPower, and a high-crit move to pair with leaf blade. I guess we'd lose out on Iron Fist bullet punch or Meteor Mash, but there's nothing on the Grass side to go with that (Needle arm doesn't get the boost).
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CAP 25 - Part 4 - Secondary Typings Discussion
- Thread starter snake
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In favor of Grass/Steel, we could focus on a special attacking option to better differentiate between kart and ferro. Since both focus more on physical attacks, it would be an unexplored niche for this typing. We would not have to worry about either outshining CAP 25g because even if it didn't live up to ferro's defenses or karts physical attack, it would still have a reason to be used.
I feel like beating SS Necturna with Grass/Normal is meh. Like if you want to beat it, you will have to put fire coverage on it, along with beating every steel types. In this case, you would be walled by Heatran and Pajantom, which one of them was something a post earlier said that this Grass/Normal would beat. So we would probably need another coverage layout, such as Ground/Ghost or Ground/Ice. Both of these will get walled by Steel/Flying, most notably Celesteela. So in this scenario, we are assuming that Grass/Normal is attack oriented, which means that you will probably get OHKO'd by Necturna's Grass Type Z-Move which it might be running unless you have decent defense, and even then you will probably die to a Power Whip after. Also, since there are no Stone Edge coverage, it has the potential to set up substitute and survive a attack.
So about outspeeding it, you would need a base speed of 111 or higher and a choice scarf. Okay cool revenge killer. But I only see as that because then you have to sacrifice points in other stats. Sure, STAB Extreme Speed is scary as hell, and STAB Boomburst would kill everyone, but with omnipresent steel types, I don't think it will be that good. Also, if you scarf and lock into the normal type move, you're giving a free setup to Necturna :/
Going to edit later
So about outspeeding it, you would need a base speed of 111 or higher and a choice scarf. Okay cool revenge killer. But I only see as that because then you have to sacrifice points in other stats. Sure, STAB Extreme Speed is scary as hell, and STAB Boomburst would kill everyone, but with omnipresent steel types, I don't think it will be that good. Also, if you scarf and lock into the normal type move, you're giving a free setup to Necturna :/
Going to edit later
If we're so concerned about Necturna, why aren't we focusing the discussion of CAP25f around her, instead of CAP25g? Offensively, that would be easily accomplished, and makes so much more sense than a specialized defensive counter who can't do much else in the current metagame. I'm confused as to how we seem to be getting pigeonholed into designing CAP25g to handle Necturna.
It's worth mentioning that I feel Flying type had been underconsidered this project, for all three starters. Flying has strong and interesting moves on both the physical and special sides, has good offensive synergy with all of Fire, Water and Grass, and enables multiple abilities. Fire/Flying I mentioned in an earlier post, but Water/Flying and Grass/Flying are being slept on.
A few points in defense of grass/normal in general but specifically on these topics:
1) I'd argue if we force Necturna to adapt, our 'mon has already won half the battle in being a specialized Pokemon with a unique, different niche in the meta. Your point loses me; if we're building CAP to be able to take out Ghosts and/or dragons we will have to give it coverage. Necturna, meanwhile, can't run its normal set. It gets four movelsots so beating us up with Stone Edge necessarily means it can't threaten the rest of out team with Power Whip or Ghostium-Z or can no longer hide behind subs. It sort of feels like you're saying "this pokemon loses to Power Whip/Phantom Force/Substitute/Shell Smash/Stone Edge Necturna", i.e. Shrodinger's 5-move monster, which isn't a fair argument at all. It also isn't fair to say that "if Necturna is using its standard set, we must assume our Grass/Normal type is just carrying Power Whip/Bullet Seed/Leech Seed/Return and is utterly walled".
2) From a CAP-building perspective, "this Pokemon takes no damage but then what?" is a problem we can solve later. Simple question time!
- Can a theoretical CAP25g that is Normal/Grass switch into ghost moves with impunity? Yes.
- Can a theoretical CAP25g Normal switch into grass moves relatively safely? Yes.
To just use your example instead of muddying the water with other examples...
- Can a theoretical Psychic Pokemon comfortably switch into dark type attacks? No.
- Can a theoretical Psychic/Pokemon do well against Pursuit trappers and switch-out if need be? No!
We can turn Dark-type Pokemon into checks instead of counters with good coverage, but we can't negate the inherent defensive issues of Psychic typing; no ability, no amount of bulk, is going to make us enjoy switching into a Dark Pulse; even if we aren't straight OHKO'd it's still a lot of wear and tear.
Conversely, what you're saying is "Sure, grass/normal can tank hits...but then what?". But in CAP, we can answer that with moves or abilities. (Poll jumping redacted)
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I just explained in my last post why the added weakness to Fighting weakness is not a big issue, losing against M-Medi, Rev and Kartana is a small price to pay in exchange for beating SS Necturna. Grass/Ice might definitely better offensively, but it has zero utility defensively bacause of its huge number of weaknesses, and as I already said too, requires Refrigerate, a specific ability to make better use of Normal-type vast movepool, and even then utility options like Rapid Spin are generally dubious choices on a typing so defensively vulnerable and with a terrible match up against common hazard setters like Ferrothorn and Heatran.
The point of Grass/Normal is not to revenge kill Nect, it is to create something capable of swithing into a +2 Never Ending Nightmare. Also Necturna never runs Grassium-Z, as that is much more easier to wall by mons like M-Scizor or Pyroak, and with just 100 HP/100 Def and some investment, both Power Whip and Stone Edge will fail to 2HKO us almost always (+2 252+ Atk Necturna Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Celebi: 188-222 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). Also all type combinations will be walled by certain threats, so I fail to see how being walled by Celesteela and Ferrothorn is such a bad thing, and even if we do decide that those mons shouldn't check us later, we can still give CAP 25g Fire coverage, which would deal with them and Nect simultaneously.
The problem with designing the Fire starter as an offensive answer to Nect is that you only need to have 110 Speed and any mon with Fire STAB will beat her with a Scarf, so if we choose to do this, it would be really easy regardless of our secondary type. Secondly, Grass gives us the chance of creating somthing capable of taking on standard SS Nect defensively something that currently only Tomohawk is capable of doing, and which restricts teambuilding to an extreme degree.
I don't understand the argument for grass/normal with refrigerate. If you want refridgerate, wouldn't you just go with grass/ice to make something like extreme speed hit like a truck? It seems pointless to remove one of your STABs. If you want to counter paj and nect, give yourself ice coverage instead or give it scrappy, but don't sacrifice normal STAB for refrigerate
The reason is so rapid spin wil not be immune to Ghost, or really anything for that matter. Mx I do really get where youre going, grass/ice is very frail defensively, and personally its not my top choice either. The point I was trying to make was that Grass/Normal isnt much better given our aims for 25g. The frontrunner imo would still be grass/electric.
Wulfanator72 My point is not that a Grass/Normal should use Refrigerate (and I agree that this would be a dubious pick at best), it is that, in order to abuse the wide array of moves that Nomal-type has, they need specifically Refigerate, while Normal can abuse those same move in conjuction with other powerful abilities
Dece1t Grass/Electric is still inferior to Grass/Normal defensively, as you lose some of the most valuable resistances of each separate type, Ground and Flying, while only adding an additional Steel resistance and adding a double one to Electric. Offensively, the only match-up that Grass/Electric improves is against Celesteela, Skarmory, and maybe Gyarados and Mantine, while significanly making us weaker against Dragon-types like the Lati twins, Zygarde, Grass-types like Pyroak, Jumbao and Tangrowth. Finally, it is also still walled by Ferrothorn, one of the most reliables Steel types in the tier.
Dece1t Grass/Electric is still inferior to Grass/Normal defensively, as you lose some of the most valuable resistances of each separate type, Ground and Flying, while only adding an additional Steel resistance and adding a double one to Electric. Offensively, the only match-up that Grass/Electric improves is against Celesteela, Skarmory, and maybe Gyarados and Mantine, while significanly making us weaker against Dragon-types like the Lati twins, Zygarde, Grass-types like Pyroak, Jumbao and Tangrowth. Finally, it is also still walled by Ferrothorn, one of the most reliables Steel types in the tier.
Earlier I mentioned Water/Flying as being a good defensive typing, but it didn’t get much traction.
My idea was that such a defensive typing could work well, not just as a generalized good defensive typing (having only two weaknesses and handsome resists to Water, Fire, Steel, Fighting, Bug and a Ground immunity), but also having a tremendously valuable dual STAB combo, making it have potential as a defensive threat able to hit back. Giving it some offensive teeth, something like Heatran level offense, would more than help differentiate it from Mantine. Beating Landorus, Tomohawk and the bulky Grass types would definitely be useful.
The other thing about this typing, I already have a unique defensive/supportive niche in mind: Trick Room support.
Trick Room, as a play style struggles with Ground, Water, Fire and bulky Grass typings. Water/Flying already has great defensive synergy with common TR mons like Fidgit, Magenera, Stakataka, Marowak A, Mega Mawile, Mega Camerupt, Tapu Bulu, and Jumbao.
Its Flying typing helps drive away annoying bulky Grass types like Mega Venusaur and Amoongus, and Gastrodon would struggle to do much against it at all. Finally, Greninja’s Water Shuriken stops a lot of TR sweeps, and countering that would very helpful.
(poll jumping redacted)
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I did make a post about Grass/Flying earlier on. I don't want to repeat myself so I'll point out that there are a decent number of pokemon in S or A rank that would give Grass-typing trouble that are hit Super Effectively by Flying. Tomohawk, Jumbao, Aurumoth, Hawlucha, Necturna, M-Pinsir, Syclant, Pyroak, Tapu Bulu, and Volcarona are the ones. Unfortunately, it doesn't help that much defensively, aside from perhaps switching in easily on Tapu Bulu or switching in on a predicted Grass- or Fighting- move from the likes of Necturna or Kartana.
I suppose I should also ask if I'm in the wrong for assuming Leech Seed is something CAP 25g will have unique access to because it's a Grass-type. I know it's very possible to leave Leech Seed off of CAP 25g, but I'm more addressing the possibility of CAP 25f or CAP 25w getting it. It seems like something that's technically possible but also probably never going to happen. I'll also reiterate that Leech Seed is a really cool move to try and pair with an ability and much more interesting than something that just gives us strong attacks. Sorry If I'm speaking out of turn here.
reachzero said:
Not trying to jump on any bandwagon or anything, but I suggested Grass/Flying all the way back on the first page. For everyone's convenience, I'll post the suggestion again here, in case anyone is interested this time.
Mr Holiday said:
As I said before, I think Grass/Flying has a lot of potential thanks to it's very specific resistances, and the fact that it has Super Effective STAB coverage over those same Types. With Grass/Flying, CAP25g could switch in on resisted Fighting, Water, Grass or Ground Type Moves, and force out or eliminate those Type Pokemon. While weaknesses to Ice, Flying, Poison, Rock and Fire can hinder it in some situations, it also helps to define the niche CAP25g would occupy, coming on specific threats, and avoiding situations it can't handle. As I've said several times now, a specialist is something that's good at one job, and that's something Grass/Flying provides. You can't switch it into anything you like and expect it to excel. In fact, it will probably fail in most situations. But against the things it's designed to deal with, it can preform very well, dealing with a variety of Types that you might otherwise need two or more Pokemon to deal with.
So I see Mx countering my post with being able to give the Grass/Normal with fire types, and then shoot down Grass/Electric with types that wall Grass/Electric. Sure, my "coverage is bad" argument is bad, but that doesn't mean that you get to say that one thing gets coverage and another thing doesnt. Sure, Grass/Normal can neutrally hit all 3 of the above listed grass-types, but it cannot hit Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn is not a good example to say my claim against, especially if you are willing to let Grass/normal get coverage moves. So I can't see why other Grass types can't use fire coverage. Also SE moves get a bigger bonus than STAB, so for Jumbao and Tangrowth, this point is null, especially for sun-based Jumbao. It might hit Pyroak normally, but I'm going to ask you why you would stay in and why the Pyroak will switch into you if the normal type attack does considerable damage.
About the SS Necturna, we can send it against a ghost type move, but Power Whip will hurt. It might not be a 2HKO, but it's not a 4HKO. Also, Mx said that with 100/100 defense and some defense investment can avoid a 2HKO, but it does mean we are sacrificing offensive powers or Sp.Def stats. In the next turn, Necturna can set up a substitute or smack you hard with an additional Power Whip. Alternatively, we can be a fast normal type with 110+ base speed and a scarf, but then we have to hit hard, and that means sacrificing defense. So if we min max a Grass/Normal (which sounds rediculous from a pretty bad offensive type), then we would have to hope it doesn't have a substitute up, and if it does, I think that a min maxed Pokemon would definitely not survive a 2HKO from +2 Power Whip. Sure, you can KO Necturna, but I'm really not sure if it really is a counter.
About the SS Necturna, we can send it against a ghost type move, but Power Whip will hurt. It might not be a 2HKO, but it's not a 4HKO. Also, Mx said that with 100/100 defense and some defense investment can avoid a 2HKO, but it does mean we are sacrificing offensive powers or Sp.Def stats. In the next turn, Necturna can set up a substitute or smack you hard with an additional Power Whip. Alternatively, we can be a fast normal type with 110+ base speed and a scarf, but then we have to hit hard, and that means sacrificing defense. So if we min max a Grass/Normal (which sounds rediculous from a pretty bad offensive type), then we would have to hope it doesn't have a substitute up, and if it does, I think that a min maxed Pokemon would definitely not survive a 2HKO from +2 Power Whip. Sure, you can KO Necturna, but I'm really not sure if it really is a counter.
If you let Nect set up +2 and a Sub unabated, you have misplayed badly irrespective of CAP 25g's type.
One-shotting -1 Nect is not difficult with anything but low-power priority. Notably, Stone Edge does more damage to Grass/Flying and Grass/Ice than to Grass/Normal, but that's irrelevant because STAB Neverending Nightmare is stronger than SE Stone Edge anyway.
In any case, what Grass generally can hope for isn't SE coverage, it's neutral coverage. Since 7 types resist Grass, it's weak to 5, and resists 3, just being able to peg hits neutrally is a good option. Normal has, if anything else, high-powered STABs on both sides without sacrificing ability for it, and since the only types that resist Normal are Rock (avoids Grass), Steel (mediocre offensive presence), and Ghost (shares a mutual immunity relationship) then your third slot after STABs just needs to deal with Ghost or Steel. As it happens Necturna shares a Fire weakness with Steel types, but that isn't to say a strong Ghost or Dark type move wouldn't work just as well, and leave Steel to teammates.
I do think we've lingered too far on Necturna specifically, but the advantages I outlined above are for all matchups. I of course like other typings, but this one is not without its merits.
One-shotting -1 Nect is not difficult with anything but low-power priority. Notably, Stone Edge does more damage to Grass/Flying and Grass/Ice than to Grass/Normal, but that's irrelevant because STAB Neverending Nightmare is stronger than SE Stone Edge anyway.
In any case, what Grass generally can hope for isn't SE coverage, it's neutral coverage. Since 7 types resist Grass, it's weak to 5, and resists 3, just being able to peg hits neutrally is a good option. Normal has, if anything else, high-powered STABs on both sides without sacrificing ability for it, and since the only types that resist Normal are Rock (avoids Grass), Steel (mediocre offensive presence), and Ghost (shares a mutual immunity relationship) then your third slot after STABs just needs to deal with Ghost or Steel. As it happens Necturna shares a Fire weakness with Steel types, but that isn't to say a strong Ghost or Dark type move wouldn't work just as well, and leave Steel to teammates.
I do think we've lingered too far on Necturna specifically, but the advantages I outlined above are for all matchups. I of course like other typings, but this one is not without its merits.
You are basically saying that that Grass/Normal is bad offensively and yet praise Grass/Electric, which I already showed it is walled by similar number of threats. I mentioned Ferrothorn because it still adds to the pile of things that particular typing fails to deal with.
Your argument about the Necturna match up that we have to is ridiculous in multiple levels. For starters, I don't think you really understand how the Nect match up would play at all. Let's assume that first, you switch CAP 25g in, while Nect gets a free turn to set up SS. The next turn, Nect hits you with a boosted Power Whip, which shouldn't 2HKO while you deal heavy damage to her with the appropiate coverage, possible even KOing her right there. In case you don't get the KO right there, on the next turn you can still either heal up if we get a recovery or just finishing her off for good this time, taking a lot of damage, but managing to remove a massive threat for the rest of your team. Second, there is nothing inherently wrong with sacrificing offensive prowess if we want to better deal with a physical attacker, literally every physically defensive Pokemon ever has sacrificed Atk / SpA / SpD EVs in exchange for more Defense, and my calc wasn't even using a fully defensive spread, so you still have a good amount of EVs to spare. Third, Necturna will never be able to set a Sub in front of us, ever, as even the weakest coverage will break it.
Finally, your still omitting from your post the fact that Grass/Electric doesn't really add much defensively, and takes away a valuable resistance to Ground.
If people like Grass/Normal for the Necturna match up but it has some other issues, why not try Grass/Dark? Dark has some good interactions between moves and abilities, and has a decent match up against Necturna. While not as good a match up as ghost being a resist instead of immunity, Dark offers more offensive utility. While the Bug weakness sucks, Grass/Dark has good STAB coverage and could make a good offensive mon. Just something to consider.
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Grass: My current favourite is grass/electric, though that's probably because I want to see what can be done with electric at least as much as grass. I will say I think that, if we're comparing Normal and Dark, Normal does still have the extra options for fulfilling the ability-focused concept regardless of the Necturna discussion.
Water: As someone who hangs out a bunch in the lower tiers, I need to ask about Mantine as a comparison to Water/Flying. A lot of the attacks we would be looking at using would be special (scald, hurricane, potentially avoiding brave bird), so it seems the typing might push us towards at least physical defense if we want to avoid mantine-but-better. I'm intrigued by Bug, since the only fully evolved version leans heavily towards offense despite its stat spread. But similar to grass/electric above, this could just be me excited about Lunge.
Fire: I'll echo Ground for a pivot. Camerupt is definitely not a pivot, and I don't think we need to worry about comparing ourselves to Pdon. The status immunities and neutrality to rocks is useful as well. Fairy seems better for something that would stay in a bit more to make better use of its STABS and lack of a double weakness.
Side note:
252 Atk Sawsbuck Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Necturna: 170-205 (62.9 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Water: As someone who hangs out a bunch in the lower tiers, I need to ask about Mantine as a comparison to Water/Flying. A lot of the attacks we would be looking at using would be special (scald, hurricane, potentially avoiding brave bird), so it seems the typing might push us towards at least physical defense if we want to avoid mantine-but-better. I'm intrigued by Bug, since the only fully evolved version leans heavily towards offense despite its stat spread. But similar to grass/electric above, this could just be me excited about Lunge.
Fire: I'll echo Ground for a pivot. Camerupt is definitely not a pivot, and I don't think we need to worry about comparing ourselves to Pdon. The status immunities and neutrality to rocks is useful as well. Fairy seems better for something that would stay in a bit more to make better use of its STABS and lack of a double weakness.
Side note:
Your calc shown uses Necturine, the prevo. What I think you were looking for is this (which is not an OHKO)
252 Atk Sawsbuck Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Necturna: 170-205 (62.9 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Grass / Normal seems to be the favoured 25g typing from recent discussion, particularly as a counter to SS Necturna which when we haven't got a targeted threat list yet, seems odd. It's also nowhere in the concept that 25g should be targeted towards stopping Necturna. The concept is to create a CAP which maximises the potential of its given ability and if that allows us to beat Necturna as a consequence of following the concept, so be it but it should not be an aim.
In any case, I think aiming 25g's typing in a way that lets it beat a Pokemon with SKETCH is not good as let's not forget the previous sets for Necturna include Choice Banded V-Create, Shift Gear Will-o-Wisp etc both of which beat any suggestions of Grass / Normal mentioned so far.
I will echo sentiments for Grass / Ice with options like (poll jumping redacted) sounds good from a competitive niche standpoint whilst also following the concept and role assignment. If necturna is to be the targeted pokemon for 25g, Grass/Ice can also take on this role as (poll jumping redacted) will let us it beat any form of Necturna but i dont think that should be the sole focus of 25gs secondary typing as many people seem to be aiming it that way currently.
In any case, I think aiming 25g's typing in a way that lets it beat a Pokemon with SKETCH is not good as let's not forget the previous sets for Necturna include Choice Banded V-Create, Shift Gear Will-o-Wisp etc both of which beat any suggestions of Grass / Normal mentioned so far.
I will echo sentiments for Grass / Ice with options like (poll jumping redacted) sounds good from a competitive niche standpoint whilst also following the concept and role assignment. If necturna is to be the targeted pokemon for 25g, Grass/Ice can also take on this role as (poll jumping redacted) will let us it beat any form of Necturna but i dont think that should be the sole focus of 25gs secondary typing as many people seem to be aiming it that way currently.
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Grass/Normal is a good typing for the concept primarily because of Normal's large movepool, which can coordinate with many abilities well. It also is better offensively than Grass/Electric, and better defensively than Grass/Ice, and the fact that it counters the most powerful necturna set is a bonus niche for it.
Grass / Ice actually has phenomenal coverage though. It’s not like it’d be hard to get in, and then the opponent won’t feel threatened - Grass / Ice is pretty hard to stomach. Getting Syclant in is sometimes hard, as it has a lot of weaknesses too, but that doesn’t mean it’s terrible. This Grass-type would be able to switch into Zygarde’s Thousand Arrows very well and then proceed to make it run away with Ice-type moves. Taking a look at the VR shows that a lot of the top rank Pokemon are threatened by it offensively, including Tomohawk, Landorus-T, and Colossoil.
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This is a moot point. We keep forgetting that CAP25's do not have to be part Normal-typing to receive an expansive Normal-type movepool.
Ahhhhhh......Clefable. said:
I have to second this point. We don't have to make CAP25g Normal Type to give it Normal Type Moves. If we're completely honest with ourselves, we don't have to do anything like that if we don't want to. If we really wanted to, we could give this thing V-Create and call it a day (I'm not advocating for that, merely using it as an example). We'll deal with the Movepool when we get to the Movepool. Right now, we need to think about what these three Pokemon's Types are, and how that can help them achieve the Concept. Now, I appreciate the argument that Normal has lots of moves to Coordinate with, but that's completely and utterly irrelevant. We can give it whatever Move we decide it needs. If we decide to make it Grass/Ice, give it (poll jumping redacted)
We should be worried about Weaknesses, Resistances, and STAB combos. I get that Grass/Normal is an interesting Type Combo that's underused, and it does have it merits. However, basing the argument on the Moves it can have is a bit silly, since we decide what Moves it gets, not some vaguely defined notion of what Types get what Moves.
Sorry if that came off as ranty and/or hostile. I just think we're drifting off course with this whole Movepool argument.
I also want to comment on this obsession people seem to have with countering Necturna. I honestly don't understand why we all want our Grass Type to counter Necturna, but I guess that's the niche we're going for, instead of the several other viable directions myself and others have suggested that have been utterly ignored. Anyway (salty salt aside), if this is the direction we're going in, Grass/Dark is far and away the superior option. Yes, resisting Grass and being immune to Ghost sounds better than just resisting them both, but I for one would like to be able to do something about Necturna once I switch my Necturna counter in. (Poll jumping redacted) Or, for that matter, Grass/Flying, which resists Grass, is neutral to Ghost, and has two high-BP Flying STABs that also happen to mesh nicely with various Abilities. Of course, all of this assumes Necturna doesn't use Sketch (the whole point of it's existence) to counter whatever we concoct to counter it.
Again, sorry if I sound hostile. I just don't understand this anti-Necturna thing we have going on. I get it, it's a major threat that could use a counter, but I don't think this is the time or place for it.
Instead of trying to focus down on CAPs version of Moriarty, lets try to deal with something a bit more practical. We have lots of viable options here, Grass/Ice, Grass/Electric, Grass/Flying, Grass/Dark, even Grass/Bug has merits. There are others, as well, those are just the ones that stand out to me at the moment, considering nearly every other possible Grass/X combination has been suggested thus far. Just because it can't wall a Pokemon that can use literally any move in the game doesn't mean it's not a viable option.
EDIT:
Wulfanator72 said:
You missed my suggestion of Grass/Bug on the previous page, post #119. I don't know if it matters, but I figured you're list might as well be complete.
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I was going to argue but I ran some calcs (correctly this time, I think!) and found that...yes, Grass/Dark is better at countering Necturna and other ghosts probably. I wasn't sure, but...
calcs said:
This was done with a 252+ Defense set on Malaconda to make up for its bad Physical bulk and to reflect the assumed role of our 25g as a defensive pivot against powerful physical Ghost and Ground moves, but it's only a 62% to OHKO with no defensive investment. Since Never-Ending is a one-shot move, from there Malaconda heals up with Leftovers or Sitrus Berry and proceeds to wipe things out with Dark STAB moves. Obviously our CAP would have a different stat spread but that may be to its benefit, since Malaconda doesn't have innately impressive physical bulk and has many other obvious flaws. Our CAP might instead threaten a OHKO with STAB, harass with priority, or utlize powerful status just as easily as it could end up being hyper-defensive and recovery focused, depending on what we go for.
Basically, I thought that we had to have immunity to Ghost to stomach a +2 Never-Ending Nightmare, but it turns out a Ghost resist is probably sufficient with even medium physical bulk, especially if we create a Pokemon with more impressive offensive presence or disruptive ability than Mala. I won't even bother posting calcs showing that such a typing and set-up is also extremely threatening to Pajantom, the other premier ghost of the meta; yeah he can trap us but that's a real bad idea. The U-turn double weakness sucks but I'm onboard with this if we decide we do want a Grass type that can defensively pivot into Thousand Arrows, Never-ending Nightmare, and Spirit Shackle and then threaten those Pokemon out.
I think Grass/Electric and Grass/Ice have interesting advantages as well, but if we're on the hype train of having something stomach Necturna's worst case scenario move, Grass/Dark is fine.
A general yet comprehensive list of everything the type matters for:
For 25w, the first two matter more, and anything decent there would work well. Bug is weak to stealth rock and fire, but is otherwise good defensively (resisting grass and ground is valuable). Poison is weak to ground, but is immune to poison and resists grass and fairy. Steel is weak to ground and fire, but gives many resistances. Fairy is much better on 25w than the other starters, because its damaging movepool is lacking, which hurts its participation in the concept for many abilities which affect damaging moves. Pure Water is also a good option. Rock, Ice, Fire, and Electric, on the other hand, are all bad types for 25w. The first two because of their many weaknesses, Fire because of its specific weaknesses to Ground, Rock, and Water, and Electric because Electric and Flying especially are less common than Ground as coverage.
For 25f, the first and third matter more. It will spend a lot of time attacking, so STAB will be especially important. This means we want a secondary type, and it should be one with good neutral coverage with fire. Water, Grass, Poison, Bug, Ice, Flying and Steel are therefore not recommended. Flying however deserves a second chance simply because it can switch in on many predicted moves, although its SR quad-weakness is a big deal. For reasons stated at the beginning, Normal is a decent choice. However, Electric also has a powerful movepool sharing many traits with Fire, and its coverage is better. Additionally, it gains resistances to electric and flying, which while not powerful in themselves, come only at the cost of overkill damage from ground-type attacks. Dragon, Rock, Fighting, and Ground are also good for coverage and movepool.
For 25g, as said before, Normal is a powerful STAB (and much less powerful as coverage because it's not SE against anything), so is worth it, as well as being defensively decent (an immunity to ghost is absolutely worth a weakness to fighting). Being quad-weak to U-turn sets us up to have a whole lot of trouble with scarfers, so is not recommended. Grass resists two of the best attacking types, Ground and Water, which shouldn't be undone without strong reasons. Steel's many resistances are one such reason - if we want to make a generally good type and leave the direction-setting for later stages, Steel is a pretty good secondary type. Otherwise, we've tentatively ruled out Dark, Psychic, Poison, Rock, Ground, Fire, and Electric. We could do Fairy, but Jumbao has a very broad role, and is also relatively stat-balanced, so we'd run into trouble competing with it. Ghost is possible, but has little that draws you to it, and Bug and Flying have unneeded resistances while their weakness to SR hurts. Dragon is also attractive, Ice even more so, but the type I like most is Grass/Fighting, because of Fighting's good damaging movepool, and its resistance to both Ground and Rock, which carves out a defensive niche for it. Its coverage isn't as good, but that matters less for 25g because it's intentionally a specialist.
P.S. "I for one would like to be able to do something about Necturna once I switch my Necturna counter in." If this is an issue, we can solve it with coverage. Necturna's bulk at -1 is not so powerful we need STAB to deal with it.
- Its type matchups (weaknesses, resistances, immunities)
- Miscellaneous defensive traits (damage from SR, immunity to poison, to paralysis, to powder moves, to prankster)
- The power of its STAB moves
For 25w, the first two matter more, and anything decent there would work well. Bug is weak to stealth rock and fire, but is otherwise good defensively (resisting grass and ground is valuable). Poison is weak to ground, but is immune to poison and resists grass and fairy. Steel is weak to ground and fire, but gives many resistances. Fairy is much better on 25w than the other starters, because its damaging movepool is lacking, which hurts its participation in the concept for many abilities which affect damaging moves. Pure Water is also a good option. Rock, Ice, Fire, and Electric, on the other hand, are all bad types for 25w. The first two because of their many weaknesses, Fire because of its specific weaknesses to Ground, Rock, and Water, and Electric because Electric and Flying especially are less common than Ground as coverage.
For 25f, the first and third matter more. It will spend a lot of time attacking, so STAB will be especially important. This means we want a secondary type, and it should be one with good neutral coverage with fire. Water, Grass, Poison, Bug, Ice, Flying and Steel are therefore not recommended. Flying however deserves a second chance simply because it can switch in on many predicted moves, although its SR quad-weakness is a big deal. For reasons stated at the beginning, Normal is a decent choice. However, Electric also has a powerful movepool sharing many traits with Fire, and its coverage is better. Additionally, it gains resistances to electric and flying, which while not powerful in themselves, come only at the cost of overkill damage from ground-type attacks. Dragon, Rock, Fighting, and Ground are also good for coverage and movepool.
For 25g, as said before, Normal is a powerful STAB (and much less powerful as coverage because it's not SE against anything), so is worth it, as well as being defensively decent (an immunity to ghost is absolutely worth a weakness to fighting). Being quad-weak to U-turn sets us up to have a whole lot of trouble with scarfers, so is not recommended. Grass resists two of the best attacking types, Ground and Water, which shouldn't be undone without strong reasons. Steel's many resistances are one such reason - if we want to make a generally good type and leave the direction-setting for later stages, Steel is a pretty good secondary type. Otherwise, we've tentatively ruled out Dark, Psychic, Poison, Rock, Ground, Fire, and Electric. We could do Fairy, but Jumbao has a very broad role, and is also relatively stat-balanced, so we'd run into trouble competing with it. Ghost is possible, but has little that draws you to it, and Bug and Flying have unneeded resistances while their weakness to SR hurts. Dragon is also attractive, Ice even more so, but the type I like most is Grass/Fighting, because of Fighting's good damaging movepool, and its resistance to both Ground and Rock, which carves out a defensive niche for it. Its coverage isn't as good, but that matters less for 25g because it's intentionally a specialist.
P.S. "I for one would like to be able to do something about Necturna once I switch my Necturna counter in." If this is an issue, we can solve it with coverage. Necturna's bulk at -1 is not so powerful we need STAB to deal with it.
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