CAP 25 - Part 5 - Threats Discussion

[Quanyails]

Now that we've chosen Grass/Electric, Fire/Ground, and Water/Bug, we'll be deciding how they interact with the CAP metagame! reachzero will be your Topic Leader for this part. As a result of this PRC thread, this Threats Discussion thread will differ from those of previous CAP processes. Pay careful attention to the OP and reachzero!

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In this stage, we will try to analyze which Pokemon sets could threaten or be threatened by us. Based on our typing and concept we will also decide which specific threats we should focus on later stages, and which ones should be mostly left alone. Then, the Topic Leader will organize them into a list, following this basic format:

• Switch in: The list of Pokemon on which we should be able to have a easy time switching in and then forcing them out, more than once in a game. This doesn't mean that we should be able to come into any of their moves, just their most commonly used ones.
• Pressure: The list of Pokemon that might threaten us, but should not be able to switch in easily. They should not be able to check us easily.
• Checks and Counters: The list of Pokemon should, in some way, threaten us. This might mean that they will probably be able to beat us 1v1, or at least severely cripple us. Certain Pokemon, in particular Revenge Killers might be included both in here and in Pressure, because once they switch in, they should be able to check us.

This threatlist should serve as a guideline for the rest of the project. However, this is not set in stone, and might change later if the Topic Leadership Team deems it necessary.

The following is a set of questions that we should try to answer during this discussion:

• Going specifically by typing, what Pokemon found in the CAP metagame will be able to comfortably give this project trouble?
• What Pokemon will be major threats to this project right off the bat?
• What Pokemon have the potential to become counters?
• What Pokemon may end up as threats, but must be contained or dealt with per the concept?
• Will the concept succeed with this list of threats?
• Is this list of threats acceptable for the project?
• What Pokemon will be threatened by the CAP based off of typing?
• Are these Pokemon targets that we want CAP to hit?
• Will these targets be "unavoidable" to threaten based solely on the typing?
• What direction must the project go in now that a set list of basic threats has been identified?
• What must be done in order to make these threats "wanted counters" or these threats be eliminated from counter discussion?
• Are there any Pokemon that we want to completely counter?

No individual post has to answer every question.

Guidelines:

1) Pay close attention to the Topic Leader during this discussion. Their job is to keep us focused and to bring insight.​

2) Do not poll jump. Poll jumping is a serious offense in these threads, and you can get infracted for it. Poll jumping is when you discuss something that should be discussed in the future, like specifying a CAP's stats or typing. You're allowed to hint at such things to conclude a point or to provide an example, but do not centralize your post on a poll jump. Poll jumping hurts the focus of early threads and can cause us to go off on a tangent. If you're not sure if a particular argument is poll jumping or not, err on the side of caution and don't post it.​

3) Refer to Pokemon by specific sets. This way we can clearly identify which specific sets we should be focusing on, and what specific characteristics makes us threaten or threatened by them. Adding complete movesets, EV spreads and Natures is recommended, but not mandatory.​

4) Assume that Stealth Rock in on both sides of the field, unless otherwise specified. This can be changed by the Topic Leader during the discussion.​

4) This are the exact definitions of check and counter that we will be working with:​

​

-Pokémon A checks a Pokémon B set if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into that Pokémon B set, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.​

-Pokémon A counters a Pokémon B set if Pokémon A can manually switch into that Pokémon B set, and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.​

​

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CAP 25 so far:

Topic Leader: reachzero

Topic Leadership Team:
EpicUmbreon29 - Typing
snake_rattler - Ability
jas61292 - Stats
cbrevan - Movepool

Name: Starter Trio CAPs

Description: This CAP is not one Pokemon, but three seperate Pokemon, based off of a Grass/Water/Fire starter trio.

Explanation: There is rarely such thing as a competitively viable starter Pokemon in the OU metagame, rare exceptions being Serperior, Greninja, and Blaziken for their insanely powerful abilities, and Infernape for his speed and movepool. Running three seperate CAP Processes with different Concepts can be loads of fun, and a nice way to celebrate CAP with our own starter trio! I'd love to see what the artists can come up with, and what pre-evos will be made alongside this trio, as well.
I've spoken to Birkal about this framework, and I've decided that this framework would definitely limit the Typing stage of each CAP, but not necessarily limit the Abilities stages, as Overgrow, Torrent, and Blaze aren't very competitively viable, and not necessarily limit the Stats stages, as starter trios tend not to share the same BSTs, giving us flexibility with where and how we want to place stats, especially with each "starter" most likely having a different concept from the others.

Possible Questions:
Is it possible to create a fully competitively viable Grass/Water/Fire trio?
What can be learned from a trio of Pokemon that will mostly likely check, if not counter, each other in a Rock Paper Scissors manner?
Exactly what does it take to create a fully competitively viable starter trio, something unprecedented in all of official, competitive Pokemon?

Of course, feedback is all but begged for as we work to flesh out this framework!

Starter Fact Sheet

Final Submission

• Name - Astounding Ability Actualization (Triple A)
• Description - These Pokemon each maximize the potential of their given, separate abilities by coordinating their movepools and that ability's competitive effect.
• Justification - This is an Actualization concept much like Cyclohm's original "Neglected Ability." In my research on what made Pokemon with "Starter Level" stats effective, the common denominator was they all had abilities they used to full effect with their other competitive aspects. This framework gives us a unique opportunity to A-B test some fairly powerful abilities we usually shy away from and bring out an effective competitive starter trio.
• Questions To Be Answered -
  • Which Abilities are best suited to a full, comprehensive exploration of their specific mechanics?
  • Why does Ability seem to be the common factor in taking "starter-esque" Pokemon into prominence (e.g. Protean and Battle Bond Greninja, Contrary Serperior, Speed Boost Blaziken to Ubers, etc.)
  • What is the threshold where maximizing an ability goes toi far, such as Blaziken's combination of Swords Dance, strong attack and mid-grade speed, and high BP STABS with Speed Boost or Protean Greninja's huge speed and just-varied enough movepool in prior Generations?
  • How will introducing three specialized Pokemon into the metagame at once impact it overall?
  • Which type combinations along with the starter types are best suited to maximizing the potential of a specific ability, and why?
• Explanation - Competitive Pokemon has suffered from a massive power creep for a long time. In order for a Pokemon to be effective, not only does it have to be fairly good generally, it also can't be directly outclassed. Considering our Framework, our Pokemon are already competing against Heatran/Volcarona, Toxapex/Keldeo/Greninja, and Ferrothorn/Kartana for offensive or defensive roles. However, each of those Pokemon have their own flaws that give our FWG CAP Trio space to explore if we are focused on a key niche for each of them.
  
  Let's take Grass for example, and Tough Claws. Tough Claws boosts one of the most incredibly CAP-relevant moves, Grass Knot, because it is a special contact attack. Only Mega Metagross ever even came close to utilizing this combination, and Mega-Meta was banned (for other reasons, of course). Grass could also use it's huge number of healing options with Triage, including priority Strength Sap that even outruns Bullet Punch. Nearly every Fire attack has a secondary effect chance perfect for Serene Grace or Sheer Force. Water has a few specific moves that would also love Serene Grace, but would also appreciate breaking through Gastrodon and Mollux with Mold Breaker. Suffice it to say, this concept gives us an ability to meet our Framework demands and think through a huge combination of synergistic types and abilities in a single project.

CAP 25g

Typing: Grass/Electric

CAP 25f

Typing: Fire/Ground

CAP 25w

Typing: Water/Bug

 

[reachzero]

Welcome to Threats and Counters! This will obviously be a very different experience that normal, not only because of our new and vastly improved format, but because we have three new Pokemon to address rather than one. We have not only three Pokemon, but three rather different typings--Fire/Ground is an elite offensive typing, Grass/Electric is an offense-focused typing with serious coverage holes (but good move/ability interactions), and Water/Bug is an a strange sort of no-mans land caught between a defensive role and a typing that leaves it vulnerable to common high-powered moves. This thread is where we decide which concerns we wish to address, and which we will allow to leave as-is.

Please note the following sentence.

In this stage, we will try to analyze which Pokemon sets could threaten or be threatened by us.

This means that all the discussion about what we will threaten and be threatened by is about sets, not about whole Pokemon and certainly not about type-based generalizations. "Tapu Koko" is not something that will be discussed with regard to CAP 25f, for example, and certainly not "Electric types" generally. "Specs Tapu Koko" is a valid subject of discussion.

With this is mind, let's take on our discussion questions, found in the OP! For sanity's sake, let's take on CAP 25f first, and talk about its switch ins and obvious checks and counters.

 

[Pipotchi]

Yay fire/ground

Most people are probably aware of this but this is one of the strongest offensive pairings in the game, if not THE strongest offensive pairing. This is its coverage table for typings it hits:

It hits around half of types super effectively, many at 4x effectiveness, and only has Dragon/Flying, Fire/Flying, Rock/Flying and Water/Flying as resists- out of those, only Charizard, Pelipper, Gyarados and Moltres are very relevant. we can also suggest that any Mega Lati or Rotom-W set is going to have a good time against this mon thanks to the ability Levitate.

What we are dealing with is a pokemon that has viable resists that can be counted on almost one hand without considering coverage moves. Imo what we need to do is start thinking early about how to counter this pokemon with STATS rather than TYPING- mons that are lucky enough to take neutral hits from both stabs should really stand a very good chance of checking or countering this pokemon, and a further way to check and counter this pokemon should be the speed tier. If this mon has a good speed tier and good offenses, this concept is on a quick route to being broken. Like Heatran (which uses the same fire/ground combination to great effect, and is incredibly tough to wall), I think this mon should place somewhere in the middle when it comes to speed so that all teams have a nice chance of offensively checking it, thanks to its very exploitable ground weakness.

So imo this mon should be checked by physical and mixed walls that take its stabs neutrally, because its far more easy to check as a physical/mixed attacker. Walls like Pyroak, Argho and Tomohawk using their standard defensive sets shouldnt have an issue with this pokemon. We should probably decide a cutoff point for neutral hits that mons can take from this mon- for instance, might we be able to 2hko defensive clefable with eq? What about mega venusaurs standard? To tie this into the concept, it would probably make sense to suggest an ability that is less of a wallbreaking or damage-boosting ability (eg. something that boosts stabs to above 100BP), because it only serves to limit neutral switchins. Instead, there are many abilities that encourage utility moves or improve the utility of offensive moves. Going this route preserves a lot more defensive switchins, which I think we should do. Im not sure at what point we will decide this mons role past offensive, but I'll try and add more later when that happens :T

 

[LouisCyphre]

I'm going to write a different list for hypothetical physical and special variants of CAP 25f.

The following can easily switch in to physical CAP 25f:
Rotom-W (counter)
Gyarados (counter)
Salamence

The following can easily switch in to special CAP 25f:
Rotom-W (counter)
Gyarados (counter)
Salamence
Latios
Latias

There's a couple of sets in my mind that we should always be disadvantaged against:

The Obvious
Landorus-T
Intimidate @ Choice Scarf
Earthquake
U-turn
Hidden Power Ice
Defog
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe / Adamant

Tomohawk
Prankster @ Rocky Helmet
Haze
Roost
Air Slash
Rapid Spin
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

These ubiquitous two aren't weak to either of our stabs and have the bulk to come in on CAP 25f under almost any conditions. Landorus needs no introduction: they will switch in and threaten to OHKO us immediately with STAB Earthquake. Whether CAP 25f ends up a boosting threat or an all-out sweeper, it's unlikely that we'll have the sheer damage to make Landorus balk at switching in to us. Tomohawk doesn't threaten to kill us outright, but has Haze to stonewall setup variants of CAP 25f and carries Roost to outlast any Z-crystal or high-power (e.g. Overheat, Burn Up) sets CAP 25f could possibly carry.

Flying dragons:
Latios
Levitate @ Latiosite
Psychic
Earthquake
Draco Meteor
Recover
4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe / Naive

Mega Latios is uniquely positioned to counter and kill CAP 25f in the current meta with its flagship 3 Attacks + Recover set. With no changes to its usual play pattern, it can switch in and 50/50 us with the threat of Earthquake or Recovering in our face as long as it's alive. Latios' presence on a team should make enemy CAP 25f a liability, shaping CAP 25f's preferred teammates.

Salamence
Moxie @ Flyinium Z
Dragon Dance
Outrage
Fly
Earthquake
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe / Jolly

Does anyone else run this? Out of more than just favoritism, I'm citing DD Moxiemence as something that should keep CAP 25f up at night. The free switch that Salamence gets when CAP 25f is active presents an opportunity for a game-ending DD sweep that greatly inhibits how carelessly CAP 25f can be sent out. With a DD under its belt and the threat of Moxie beyond that; Salamence gets a lot more out of being a check to CAP 25f than just simple momentum, and deserves mention despite being less viable than other setup sweepers normally.

Rain Teams in general, but especially the setters:
Tomohawk
Prankster @ Damp Rock
Rain Dance
Hurricane
Stealth Rock
Nature Power
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe w/ Modest

Pelipper
Drizzle @ Damp Rock
Scald
U-turn
Roost
Defog
248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD / Bold

Basically, CAP 25f struggles to an extreme against standard Rain Setters. Any time CAP 25f sees play in a rain matchup, the rain player will get to renew their weather for free. Being a dead team slot against an entire archetype is just part of the price of business that CAP 25f pays for its premium-shelf offensive coverage.

Without assistance, CAP 25f should never, ever beat these sets. CAP 25f already smashes 21 of the 40 S- or A-tier Pokemon in the CAP meta with super-effective STAB, including all but 5 of the 12 S/A+ mons (and Tapu Lele isn't going to appreciate switching in to us if we're physical). Making sure a mon this sort of overwhelming offensive presence has defined, insurmountable counters is a top priority.

 

[SunshineFuture]

Let me get the obvious out of the way. Any Mega Latias/Latios/Mega Latios set comes in and counters us. Levitate + Dragon = 25f counter. Interestingly, 25w checks 25f with any Water-type move it would run. Depending on 25f’s power and 25w’s bulk, it has the chance to become a full-blown counter. It’s still a check for now though. AoA Mega Crucibelle, depending on our bulk, likely beats us with Head Smash, but it can’t come on any Ground move. Coil variants of the set lose harder. As such, I see it as a check. Any Landorus-T set at the very least checks us with EQ. It becomes a counter if we go physical imo. Pelipper counters us hard with Drizzle, coming in on our STABs. (Not mentioning a set cause it has one)

As for switch ins, any Clefable set cannot touch us. The worst it could do is set up Rocks on our side. Good luck killing Clefable tho. Specially Defensive Mollux cannot hurt us in the slightest, and Scarf HP Ground isn’t common anyway. As such, any Mollux set is a switch in afaik. Any set from MScizor does nothing, as well as any Magnezone set. Plasmanta also doesn’t do anything with any set either.

 

[Raikoben]

First of all, please forgive me as a non-native English speaker for every grammar mistake.

I think there are a few Pokémons that can become more popular as a good checks and counters of, at least, 2 of our three starters and jump into the CAP metagame. As I suppose people will focus on current OU tier, I would like to bring some light to these UU. I will focus in CAP25f as requested but, please, let me note briefly some points that also affect the other two.

Checks and counters:

Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Wing Attack
- Earthquake/Aqua Tail
- Pursuit

Due to it's inmunity to Ground type and resistance to Fire STAB moves from CAP25f, combined with a probably* higher speed, Aerodacty-M not only can switch in CAP25f with ease, it can OHKO** it with Earthquake or Aqua Tail or punish the switch out with a good amount of damage with Pursuit. Both of its STAB moves hit super effective vs CAP25w and neutral vs CAP25g wich means that, once Aerodactyl is in the field, none of them could switch in without high risk of being 2HKOed. Hone Claw set can be even more dangerous due to its theoretical free swith in CAP25f
(*BST limitations of starters)
(**Supposing a poor defense following the ofensive concept of CAP25f)

Hydreigon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse -> Surf?
- Flash Cannon -> Surf?
- Fire Blast

This is the standar Choice Specs set for Hydreigon. However, its access to Surf (which hits x4 to CAP25f) raises a scene where it replaces Dark Pulse or Flash Cannon. With this modification, as it occurs with Aerodactyl (and we can include Mega Latios) we have a pokemon that its inmune to Ground type and resists Fire STAB moves and can OHKO CAP25f with surf. Surf replacement is not only supported by the ability to knock down CAP25f, it also provides super effectiveness against other OU pokemon in the CAP metagame: Colossoil, Fidgit, Charizard-Y, Heatran, Lando-T, Volcarona... In addition, its resistance to both STAB moves and Fire Blast presence put CAP25g on risk while neutral Choice Specs Draco Meteor is something that CAP25w, a theoretical check due to Bug advantage, could fear.

 

[Rifou88]

if cap25f end up being a wall breaker, I don't think that tomohawk should conter it, since a wallbreaker walled by the most common wall of the metagame is bad and unviable. If cap25f is not a wallbreaker, the we can imagine that tomo walls it, but it should then be very strong, because being walled by the most played mon of the tier le very difficult to live.

 

[david0895]

I'm not sure about considering Salamence and Moxie Gyarados counters, since, as physical attackers, they would risk a burn for entering on the Fire moves. Also, if you add the Stealth Rock weakness, they will have limited time to switch in

 

[xurkitrium-z]

Any Zygarde and Gastrodon sets will also be able to counter 25f, they've got great natural bulk to switch in on a neutral Ground attack and threaten a strong Thousand Arrows or Scald to KO it, and Dragon Dance Zygarde will be able to punish 25f pretty hard by setting up on the switch-out.

Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Scald
- Recover
- Toxic
- Earthquake

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 188 HP / 140 Atk / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Extreme Speed

 

[GMars]

For my analysis, I'll be using a dummy spread of 75 HP / 75 Def / 75 SpD, just to help us gain a bit more intuition and a very rough estimate as to how much damage we can expect an offensive Fire / Ground Pokemon to be taking against top meta threats.

CAP25f Switches in Against: (roughly in order of the best switch-in opportunities to the shakiest)

Tapu Koko - This Pokemon has no current sets that can handle CAP25f. The best it can do right now is with its Choice Specs set, which does ~33% against the placeholder spread with HP Ice.

Clefable - CAP25f will likely end up hard countering Clefable's sets, given unboosted Moonblast does ~23% and rare HP Ground Clefables do ~40%. In my opinion, we should push this by ensuring CAP25f is able to handily 2HKO physically defensive Clefable.

Zapdos - CAP25f bops both Roost + 3 Attack and fully defensive sets. Immunity to Discharge and a resistance to Heat Wave leaves Zapdos with only HP Ice to damage CAP25f with, doing a weak ~25% damage.

Magnezone - CAP25f crushes all of this mon's sets. Even Choice Specs Flash Cannon does less than 50% to the dummy spread.

Magearna - CAP25f dunks on Assault Vest Magearna and is able to handle the offensive Magearna variants (Double Dance, Shift Gear, and Trick Room). AV Fleur Cannon does ~40% while we block Volt Switch, and offensive Fleur Cannon or Ice Beam only does ~48%.

Mega Scizor - This is another Pokemon that CAP25f should be able to switch in on every time. Utility sets can't do more than ~25% with U-turn, while Swords Dance or Curse sets can do a maximum of ~55% with their first Knock Off.

Jirachi - CAP25f can switch in easily against every Jirachi set, only fearing a Body Slam paralysis, the move itself only doing ~30% from Jirachi's Wish set. Even the rare Heart Stamp Choice Scarf Jirachi does only ~40% to the placeholder spread.

Plasmanta - Choice Scarf Plasmanta relies on Aura Sphere to touch CAP25f, still only doing ~40%. Water Pulse is a potential tech option that currently sees 5% usage on high CAP ladder to be wary of.

Skarmory - Physically Defensive Skarmory can only do ~45% with Brave Bird and otherwise has to rely on Counter.

Amoonguss - Black Sludge Amoonguss only does ~35% with Giga Drain, while Assault Vest variants can only do ~45% with an unboosted Stomping Tantrum.

Ferrothorn - Against its Hazard Setter set, Power Whip does ~55% to the placeholder spread, but CAP25f comes in easily against a max BP Gyro Ball and doesn't have to worry about any potential Thunder Waves.

Celesteela - Defensive Celesteela can only punish CAP25f if it's running Earthquake over Flamethrower. Other than that, switching into Leech Seed + Protect can be a bit annoying, but should CAP25f should generally be able to switch into and force defensive Celesteela out.

Mollux - CAP25f resists Fire and Poison, leaving Specially Defensive Mollux to fish for Sludge Bomb poisons to do anything to it. Choice Scarf Mollux is a bit more threatening if it chooses to run coverage such as HP Ground.

Mega Sableye - Immunity to Wisp is great, and Utility Mega Sableye's first Knock Off only does ~45%. However, because CAP25f will be an offensive Pokemon, Foul Play variants could be troublesome.

Cyclohm - CAP25f will crumble to an Offensive Cyclohm, but given that Physically Defensive Cyclohm typically runs Electric / Fire / Ice coverage, CAP25f should be able to counter the Physically Defensive set.

Jumbao - We switch in pretty nicely against the Wish Support set, HP Ground only doing ~50%, but we can't switch in against the 3 Attacks + Recovery set's Solar Beam.

Pyroak - Non-Earth Power Defensive Pyroak only does ~36% with Giga Drain, and Earth Power does around 60%. Whether CAP25f can handle this set in return or in a 1v1 will depend on its coverage.

Cawmodore - Before a Belly Drum, CAP25f can switch into Belly Drum Cawmodore easily. If Cawmodore does Belly Drum on the switch, a +6 Bullet Punch also only does ~50%, though +6 Drain Punch will OHKO the dummy spread, so this matchup will depend heavily on CAP25f's Speed.

Tangrowth - Assault Vest Tangrowth punishes CAP25f hard with Earthquake, but Physically Defensive sets tend not to run Earthquake and only do ~40% with Giga Drain.

Mega Venusaur - Defensive Mega Venusaur usually chooses between HP Fire and Earthquake, so non-Earthquake variants can only do ~45% to CAP25f with Giga Drain.

 

[Frostbiyt]

Still a WIP

Switch Ins
The following Pokemon are switch-ins to 25f by virtue of their typing alone
In the order that they appear on the VR

M-Latios

Gyarados

M-Latias

Pelipper

Stratagem (Very frail and only applicable to Levitate sets)

M-Charizard Y (Unlikely to be able to switch in due to Drought)

Salamence

Rotom-W

Aerodactyl

Hydreigon

Mantine

These Pokemon take at most neutral damage and would likely beat or wall both Physical and Special 25f
In the order that they appear on the VR

Zygarde (Natural bulk and Thousand Arrows)

Arghonaut (Support)

Hawlucha (Maybe, after terrain seed Def/SpD boost)

Gastrodon

Pyroak (Defensive)

Kyurem-B (Any set with Earth Power)

M-Sableye (Utility)

Slowking (Maybe, threatens with Scald)

M-Swampert (Rain Sweeper)

M-Venusaur (Defensive)

Mew (Maybe, this mon can run anything)

Suicune (Sub CM)

Tapu Fini (Defensive)

M-Gyarados (Natural bulk and low risk switch due to non-mega form)

Manaphy (Maybe, due to natural bulk)

Cresselia (Trick Room)

Uxie (Trick Room)

These Pokemon take at most neutral damage and would likely beat or wall Physical 25f
In the order that they appear on the VR

Landorus-T (Most sets should be good due to Intimidate)

Tomohawk (Defensive, Rain Dance)agro

Clefable (Defensive)

Zapdos (Defensive)

Revenankh (Bulk Up)

Garchomp (Maybe, natural bulk and Rough Skin)

Gliscor

M-Aggron (Technically weak to both STABs, but insane Def and Filter make this less relevant)

Alomomola (Defensive)

Hippowdon (Defensive)

Quagsire

M-Slowbro

These Pokemon take at most neutral damage and would likely beat or wall Special 25f
In the order that they appear on the VR

Colossoil (AV)

Pajantom (The GOAT)

Chansey

Checks
These Pokemon outspeed scarfed base 126 252+ Spe and often carry a Water or Ground type move, so they will be able to beat 25f. Pokemon in italics require boosts in order to reach that speed stat so they are not necessarily going to beat 25f the turn they switch in. Pokemon that are underlined are able to reach that speed stat without any setup needed, due to scarf, swift swim, or other abilities, so they would be able to revenge kill 25f.
From fastest to slowest

700 /

M-Diancie / 110/ +Spe / 252 / +2 (Earth Power)
656 /

M-Charizard X / 100 / +Spe / 252 / +2 (Earthquake)
656 /

Salamence / 100 / +Spe / 252 / +2 (Earthquake)
644 /

Naviathan / 97 / +Spe / 252 / +2 (Waterfall)
638 /

M-Diancie / 110 / Neutral / 252 / +2 (Earth Power)
620 /

M-Charizard X / 100 / +Spe / 184 / +2 (Earthquake)
618 /

Landorus-Therian / 91 / +Spe / 252 / +2 (Earthquake)
604 /

Excadrill / 88 / +Spe / 252 / +2 (Earthquake)
598 /

M-Charizard X / 100 / Neutral / +2 (Earthquake)
598 /

Salamence / 100 / Neutral / +2 (Earthquake)
591 /

Stratagem / 130 / +Spe / 252 / +1 (Earth Power)
590 /

Kingdra / 85 / +Spe / 252 / +2 (Hydro Pump)

These Pokemon outspeed base 126 252+ Spe and often carry a Water or Ground type move, so they will be able to beat 25f if it is not scarfed. Pokemon in italics require boosts in order to reach that speed stat so they are not necessarily going to beat 25f the turn they switch in. Pokemon that are underlined are able to reach that speed stat without any setup needed, due to scarf, swift swim, or other abilities, so they would be able to revenge kill 25f.
From fastest to slowest

578 /

Zygarde / 95 / Neutral / 252 / +2 (Thousand Arrows)
574 /

Gyarados / 81 / +Spe / 252 / +2 (Waterfall)
574 /

M-Gyarados / 81 / +Spe / 252 / +2 (Waterfall)
565 /

Greninja / 122 / +Spe / 252 / +1 (Hydro Pump)
562 /

Syclant / 121 / +Spe / 252 / +1 (Earth Power, Earthquake)
562 /

Landorus-Therian / 91 / Neutral / 252 / +2 (Earthquake)
560 /

Zygarde / 95 / +Spe / 116 / +2 (Thousand Arrows)
552 /

Landorus-Therian / 91 / Neutral / 232 / +2 (Earthquake)
550 /

Excadrill / 88 / Neutral / 252 / +2 (Earthquake)
548 /

Zygarde / 95 / Neutral / 192 / +2 (Thousand Arrows)
538 /

Kingdra / 85 / Neutral / 252 / +2 (Hydro Pump)
526 /

Kingdra / 85 / Neutral / 228 / +2 (Hydro Pump)
524 /

M-Swampert / 70 / +Spe / 252 / +2 (Waterfall)
519 /

Keldeo / 108 / +Spe / 252 / +1 (Hydro Pump)
499 /

Garchomp / 102 / +Spe / 252 / +1 (Earthquake)
492 /

M-Charizard X / 100 / +Spe / 252 / +1 (Earthquake)
492 /

Salamence / 100 / +Spe / 252 / +1 (Earthquake)
483 /

Naviathan / 97 / +Spe / 252 / +1 (Waterfall)
478 /

M-Swampert / 70 / Neutral / 252 / +2 (Waterfall)
476 /

Colossoil / 95 / +Spe / 252 / +1 (Earthquake)
475 /

Kyurem-Black / 95 / +Spe / 252 / +1 (Earth Power)
475 /

Zygarde / 95 / +Spe / 252 / +1 (Thousand Arrows)
465 /

Kyurem-Black / 95 / +Spe / 224 / +1 (Earth Power)
463 /

Landorus-Therian / 91 / +Spe / 252 / +1 (Earthquake)
453 /

Excadrill / 88 / +Spe / 252 / +1 (Earthquake)
448 /

M-Charizard X / 100 / Neutral / 252 / +1 (Earthquake)
448 /

Plasmanta / 100 / Neutral / 252 / +1 (Water Pulse)
448 /

Salamence / 100 / Neutral / 252 / +1 (Earthquake)
439 /

Landorus-Therian / 91 / +Spe / 196 / +1 (Earthquake)
438 /

M-Aerodactyl / 150 / +Spe / 252 / 0 (Earthquake)
433 /

Volkraken / 95 / Neutral / 252 / +1 (Hydro Pump)
433 /

Zygarde / 95 / Neutral / 252 / +1 (Thousand Arrows)
430 /

Gyarados / 81 / +Spe / 252 / +1 (Waterfall)
430 /

M-Gyarados / 81 / +Spe / 252 / +1 (Waterfall)
420 /

Zygarde / 95 / +Spe / 116 / +1 (Thousand Arrows)
417 /

Heatran / 77 / +Spe / 252 / +1 (Earth Power)
411 /

Zygarde / 95 / Neutral / 192 / +1 (Thousand Arrows)
399 /

A-Greninja / 132 / +Spe / 252 / 0 (Hydro Pump)
394 /

Stratagem / 130 / +Spe / 252 / 0 (Earth Power)
391 /

Gyarados / 81 / Neutral / 252 / +1 (Waterfall)
391 /

M-Gyarados / 81 / Neutral / 252 / +1 (Waterfall)

These Pokemon are ones that would threaten 25f if they can switch in for free or on a predicted resisted hit and could potentially outspeed and KO with a SE attack.
Since we do not know what 25f's speed will be, I am listing all potential checks from 386(252+ 126 Base Spe) to 317(252+ 95 Base Spe) speed

377 /

Greninja / 122 / +Spe / 252 / 0 (Hydro Pump)
350 /

M-Diancie / 110 / +Spe / 252 / 0 (Earth Power)
350 /

Kitsunoh / 110 / +Spe / 252 / 0 (Earthquake)
350 /

M-Latias / 110 / +Spe / 252 / 0 (Earthquake)
350 /

M-Latios / 110 / +Spe / 252 / 0 (Earthquake)
346 /

Keldeo / 108 / +Spe / 252 / 0 (Hydro Pump)
339 /

Fidgit / 105 / +Spe / 252 / 0 (Earth Power)
339 /

Krillowatt / 105 / +Spe / 252 / 0 (Earth Power/Scald/Surf)
339 /

M-Pinsir / 105 / +Spe / 252 / 0 (Earthquake)
333 /

Garchomp / 102 / +Spe / 252 / 0 (Earthquake)
331 /

Pajantom / 101 / +Spe / 252 / 0 (Earthquake)
328 /

M-Charizard X / 100 / +Spe / 252 / 0 (Earthquake)
328 /

Manaphy / 100 / +Spe / 252 / 0 (Surf)
328 /

Plasmanta / 100 / +Spe / 252 / 0 (Water Pulse)
328 /

Salamence / 100 / +Spe / 252 / 0 (Earthquake)
322 /

Naviathan / 97 / +Spe / 252 / 0 (Waterfall)
319 /

M-Diancie / 110/ Neutral / 252 / 0 (Earth Power)
317 /

Colossoil / 95 / +Spe / 252 / 0 (Earthquake)
317 /

Gliscor / 95 / +Spe / 252 / 0 (Earthquake)
317 /

Kyurem-Black / 95 / +Spe / 252 / 0 (Earth Power)
317 /

Volkraken / 95 / +Spe / 252 / 0 (Hydro Pump)
317 /

Zygarde / 95 / +Spe / 252 / 0 (Thousand Arrows)

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Oh boy starting with the mortars are we? (Disclaimer: Bias refers to whether it is specially or physically offensive)

As Pipotchi said, Fire/Ground is a ruthlessly strong STAB combination that hits a ridiculously large amount of mons neutrally and super effectively, and that goes doubly for the plently ground weak. And with the mixture of Toxic, CAPf is pretty much uncounterable in the most common sense. Not that counters won't appear, but I sense we will be working with a very skewed ratio of checks to counters. Right now, I'm going to cover a lot of the big stuff in the CAP VR right now and see how it would likely stack up.

Landorus-Therian: No matter the set and no matter the bias, I know that almost all sets of Landorus-T will be pretty hard checks to CAPf. The more defensive sets will still have the bulk to take on the Fire STAB and still has Earthquake to kill it, and I imagine sets like Flyinium Z can use this thing as setup bait. Only situation where I see it majorly winning is where it has a decently strong coverage move, which is currently unavailable, or Lando-T gets burned, which is unlikely for an offensive mon although still possible. I think this could be argued a very hard check if not counter depending on the bias.

Tomohawk: This is honestly very dependent on a lot of variables. How bulky will CAPf be? How strong will it be? What bias is it? I feel like this is definetely most important for Offensive sets and I don't feel comfortable answering the question for those until we have a little more on about how it will turn out. Rain Dance totally beats it though by murdering its Fire STAB with precipitation. So lets turn to the fairly Standard Haze Hawk set.

Tomohawk
Prankster @ Rocky Helmet
Haze
Roost
Air Slash
Rapid Spin
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

If physical, I honestly don't see this doing too much to Tomohawk, and I think its fairly safe to call it a check in that case. Tomohawk would have enough natural bulk that it can reliably tank off the damage and recooperate with Air Slash. CAPf would also likely be working with the recoiled Flare Blitz, meaning that it would take damage from itself each turn if that aspect doesn't get augmentation. And also Rocky Helmet damage too

252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 192-227 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 65.6% chance to 2HKO Keep in mind that this is full 126 base attack, which I see is quite unlikely for this CAP.

Special is a lot more tricky. While it is certainly true that Tomohawk would still be able to switch into a Earth Power or similar without worry, its that Fire STAB that I am worried about.

252+ SpA Life Orb Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 265-313 (64 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is off of Camerupt's natural 105 base Special Attack even if Modest and Life Orb, meaning that CAPf absolutely has the potential to punch through it, especially since we might be looking greater than 105 if its an offensive mon. That is now a rate that Tomohawk cannot reliably heal off the damage with Roost, and Rocky Helmet is no help. Tomohawk in this case also isn't doing too much in return, since Air Slash on non invested Camerupt defenses (70/75 for SpD) are only doing about 40% consistently and doesn't get Rocky Helmet chip. And if CAPf is faster, which is certainly possible, I would argue that it actually becomes a switch-in to Tomohawk, especially if supporting at least decent bulk.

Greninja: Combining both formes since they should function similarly. Ash-Gren is a full on check at least, as both the threat of Water Shuriken and Hydro Pump on the bread and butter Offensive make CAPf wet itself. Same pretty much applies for Protean sets, but it much more requires Hydro Pump to successfully kill CAPf, so at least Spikes and AoA Greninja are checks, with Scarf requiring much more skill.

Mega Crucibelle: This is a pressure matchup. Mega Crucibelle has to watch out for whatever Ground STAB CAPf ends up getting for pretty obvious reasons (its called a 4x Ground weakness), but otherwise Mega Crucibelle Head Smash is kind of scary to it thanks to that Fire typing. Even better if Cruci has a Coil boost up, as it prevents from Head Smash misses.

252 Atk Crucibelle-Mega Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Camerupt: 334-394 (97 - 114.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Camerupt bulk)

Ferrothorn/Heatran: Both are 4x weak to STAB and have massively resisted STABs. Even with Power Whip Ferrothorn is piss slow, so I don't see it doing very much. If they are not in the switch in category I will actually quit CAP.

Jumbao: I think this is going to be mostly pressure. Wish Support at least is pressure, because it can do very little to it with Moonblast and can be decimated by Fire STAB, although HP Ground is problematic. Not accounting for Trace annoyances since we don't know ability. 3 Attacks + Recovery can actually totally OHKO us with Rocks up thanks to Life Orb boosted Grass STAB and absolutely a fresh Grassium Z, but once again are killed by Fire STAB, with Drought sets being turned to ash and giving them abusable sun, so totally in the pressure category. Choice Scarf can still kill us with Grass STAB and everything negative still applies, but these OHKOs are now pushed down to 2HKOs due to no power boosting item, so its weaker pressure and requires more careful play to get around.

Magearna: Both Shift Gear and Assault Vest hate CAPf's STABs and can really do much back attack wise. Even Camerupt bulk uninvested takes Fleur Cannon like a champ, is immune to Volt Switch, and the only attack it remotely fears is Shift Gear Focus Blast, which is still only a 2HKO and Magearna isn't exactly known as a speed demon. Absolutely CAPf is a switch into this Magearna.

Tapu Koko: Absolutely threatened by the presense of Ground STAB on any set, even Shuca. Biggest problem for Tapu Koko is its lack of anything notable to hit us with. Even Z Dazzling Gleam isn't going to kill us outright, although it does still notably dent us.

Volkraken: Falls onto pressure category, although much softer. Cannot switch into any sort of decently powerful Ground STAB, and Choice Specs auto loses if it is slower, but Water STAB pressure is absolutely there and can absolutely still kill us with it.

Zygarde: A full on check no matter the set. Thousand Arrows is quite the annoying threat to any set CAPf could have thanks to Fire typing, and can't do much besides try and burn it, although it does hit neutrally with Ground STAB. Ground STAB likely wouldn't work that great just because of how bulky Zygarde is naturally.

252+ Atk Life Orb Camerupt (110 Atk) Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 175-208 (48.8 - 58.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO It hurts, but it is still at least soft checked since it OHKOs against Camerupt defenses, against the Offensive DD set.

Quick thoughts on a few already presented mons not here:

Salamence and Gyarados are absoluetely not counters but instead hard checks, as they do actually care about burns and residual damage, so it is still completely possible for CAPf to come out on top with stuff like a Firium Z set. They also aren't the bulkiest boys out there, so they could get worn down by powerful Fire STAB, even if resisted. Gliscor is one Granny Pie Frostbiyt caught that flew under my radar, but works beautifully as a full on counter thanks to Ground immunity and Fire resistance, and cant be killed with any sort of status intentional or otherwise thanks to Poison Heal. Latios and its mega counterpart are able to counter it well thanks to its resistances to STAB and attacks that aren't completely blocked by its own resistances, as well as sporting full on recovery.

All thoughts for now, will cover more mons later.

 

[Frostbiyt]

Gliscor is one Granny Pie Frostbiyt caught that flew under my radar, but works beautifully as a full on counter thanks to Ground immunity and Fire resistance, and cant be killed with any sort of status intentional or otherwise thanks to Poison Heal.

Gliscor doesn't resist Fire, but it does have really good PhysDef, Poison Heal, Roost, and pressures with EQ

Yay fire/ground

Most people are probably aware of this but this is one of the strongest offensive pairings in the game, if not THE strongest offensive pairing. This is its coverage table for typings it hits:

It hits around half of types super effectively, many at 4x effectiveness, and only has Dragon/Flying, Fire/Flying, Rock/Flying and Water/Flying as resists- out of those, only Charizard, Pelipper, Gyarados and Moltres are very relevant. we can also suggest that any Mega Lati or Rotom-W set is going to have a good time against this mon thanks to the ability Levitate.

What we are dealing with is a pokemon that has viable resists that can be counted on almost one hand without considering coverage moves. Imo what we need to do is start thinking early about how to counter this pokemon with STATS rather than TYPING- mons that are lucky enough to take neutral hits from both stabs should really stand a very good chance of checking or countering this pokemon, and a further way to check and counter this pokemon should be the speed tier. If this mon has a good speed tier and good offenses, this concept is on a quick route to being broken. Like Heatran (which uses the same fire/ground combination to great effect, and is incredibly tough to wall), I think this mon should place somewhere in the middle when it comes to speed so that all teams have a nice chance of offensively checking it, thanks to its very exploitable ground weakness.

So imo this mon should be checked by physical and mixed walls that take its stabs neutrally, because its far more easy to check as a physical/mixed attacker. Walls like Pyroak, Argho and Tomohawk using their standard defensive sets shouldnt have an issue with this pokemon. We should probably decide a cutoff point for neutral hits that mons can take from this mon- for instance, might we be able to 2hko defensive clefable with eq? What about mega venusaurs standard? To tie this into the concept, it would probably make sense to suggest an ability that is less of a wallbreaking or damage-boosting ability (eg. something that boosts stabs to above 100BP), because it only serves to limit neutral switchins. Instead, there are many abilities that encourage utility moves or improve the utility of offensive moves. Going this route preserves a lot more defensive switchins, which I think we should do. Im not sure at what point we will decide this mons role past offensive, but I'll try and add more later when that happens :T

Where did you get this chart? I've been using the pokemondb type coverage calculator, but this looks a lot more useful.

 

[GMars]

Gliscor doesn't resist Fire, but it does have really good PhysDef, Poison Heal, Roost, and pressures with EQ


Where did you get this chart? I've been using the pokemondb type coverage calculator, but this looks a lot more useful.

The chart is from a Pokemon Showdown command, /coverage Fire, Ground, table

 

[Raikoben]

More Counters for CAP25f!

Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Psyshock
- Rapid Spin

Since we dont know the stat spread of CAP25f, Starmie could be fast enough to act as a revenge killer with its 115 Base Speed and the x4 efectiveness Water STAB forcing our starter to switch out. The only two starters that outspeed Starmie are Sceptile and Greninja

Crawdaunt @ Waterium Z
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Crabhammer
- Knock Off
- Aqua Jet

Azumarill @ Normalium Z
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Knock Off

These two are the same. With the Aqua Jet probably OHKOing it and set up moves, the mind games begin. Switch out or not? Kill or set up? Could CAP25f punish the greed of these two pokemon assuming they can boost their attack for free by standing in the battle or is a completely lost match up?

 

[G-Luke]

More Counters for CAP25f!

Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Psyshock
- Rapid Spin

Since we dont know the stat spread of CAP25f, Starmie could be fast enough to act as a revenge killer with its 115 Base Speed and the x4 efectiveness Water STAB forcing our starter to switch out. The only two starters that outspeed Starmie are Sceptile and Greninja

Crawdaunt @ Waterium Z
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Crabhammer
- Knock Off
- Aqua Jet

Azumarill @ Normalium Z
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Knock Off

These two are the same. With the Aqua Jet probably OHKOing it and set up moves, the mind games begin. Switch out or not? Kill or set up? Could CAP25f punish the greed of these two pokemon assuming they can boost their attack for free by standing in the battle or is a completely lost match up?

Starmie is a non factor, as its not viable in the metagame

 

[hawk1113]

Switch Ins:
The following Pokemon are switch-ins to 25f by virtue of their typing alone
In the order that they appear on the VR

Stratagem

One clarification; Stratagem is only a Switch In on us if it is Levitate Stratagem. I understand Levitate Stratagem is far more common, but sometimes it runs its Technician set which is much, much, much shakier versus us especially since its STAB is not SE here.

In fact, using some placeholder calcs of a theoretical Ground/Fire Typhlosion:
252 SpA Life Orb Stratagem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Typhlosion: 278-328 (93.6 - 110.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stratagem: 136-162 (42.3 - 50.4%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

What we can see here is that if Levitate Stratagem comes in on a fire attack, it still loses 50% of its HP. That means it is a check and not a counter or safe switch-in as it still gets mangled on bad prediction. And of course, a Technician Stratagem just dies.

252 SpA Life Orb Typhlosion Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stratagem: 452-533 (140.8 - 166%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Things get worse if we bias ourselves towards physical, as poor Strata has slightly better special bulk than physical bulk. If we do want Stratagem to be a reliable check to us, we will want to make sure we don't outspeed it, don't have Fighting coverage, and don't have priority, as it's already taking a beating even with these modest calcs and no helpful ability (this is all with Blaze).

(sorry to be in "well, actually" mode but I had written detailed stuff for everything except our Fire starter leaving me in reaction mode...of course we start with fire...lol)

 

[G-Luke]

Due to Strategem's frality, I wouldn't place it in a switchin category of any kind. Its much better being in the Pressure category, as its extremely unlikely that we will outspeed it, and it can force us out with super effective coverage

 

[Frostbiyt]

What about CAP 25W? It resists Ground and is neutral to Fire while also capable of hitting back with 4x Water STAB. Is this something we should discuss now or should we save it for later?

One clarification; Stratagem is only a Switch In on us if it is Levitate Stratagem. I understand Levitate Stratagem is far more common, but sometimes it runs its Technician set which is much, much, much shakier versus us especially since its STAB is not SE here.

What we can see here is that if Levitate Stratagem comes in on a fire attack, it still loses 50% of its HP. That means it is a check and not a counter or safe switch-in as it still gets mangled on bad prediction. And of course, a Technician Stratagem just dies.

Due to Strategem's frality, I wouldn't place it in a switchin category of any kind. Its much better being in the Pressure category, as its extremely unlikely that we will outspeed it, and it can force us out with super effective coverage

I'll leave it in the category for now, but I'll add a note after it.

 

[hawk1113]

Checking more assumptions, again using just Fire/Ground Life Orb Blaze Typhlosion as a sort of "baseline" (I gave it the same physical offenses as it has special to compare both). If I don't comment on a Pokemon from Frostbiyt's list here, assume I either assumed it was true or that I checked it and, yeah, that Pokemon does indeed threaten CAP25f.

Tornadus-T (Rocky Helmet, Regenerator)

252 SpA Life Orb Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 226-266 (62.4 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252- Atk Life Orb Typhlosion Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 242-286 (66.8 - 79%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Typhlosion: 147-174 (49.4 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


- Tornadus is not capable of walling us, and barely pressures us. Of course this physical set takes a ton in both recoil and rocky helmet damage, but it's not a great answer to us. Taking neutral fire damage is just too much pain. Things look worse for the Flynium-Z set since it doesn't invest in bulk, although it at least scares us away if its Z-crystal is intact.

Colossoil (Maybe, due to natural bulk)

252 SpA Life Orb Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 220 SpD Assault Vest Colossoil: 140-165 (34.3 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Colossoil Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Typhlosion: 422-498 (142 - 167.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

- Assault Vest Colossoil is an effective switch-in and wall to Special-biased 25f, capable of soaking two powerful STAB attacks and OHKOing with Earthquake. It struggles more against a physical set though:

252- Atk Life Orb Typhlosion Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Colossoil: 253-300 (62.1 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

- As we are likely to outspeed it, it cannot afford to switch into us as we can 2HKO it before it gets to put its Earthquake to good use. Flame Orb sets fair no better; they are better checks because they also get close to a OHKO with Knock Off (assuming Typhlosion-levels of bulk), but have no chance of switching in safely to physical or special 25f and still likely are outsped and take heavy damage in a free shoot-out against us.

Mew (Maybe, this mon can run anything)

252- Atk Life Orb Typhlosion Flare Blitz vs. 240 HP / 156 Def Mew: 175-207 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 208-246 (51.8 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Mew Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Typhlosion: 158-188 (53.1 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

A standard Defensive Earthquake Mew is 2HKOd by a special set's fire attacks even with Leftovers recovery, making it a very shaky answer to us. It can theoretically stall out a physical set, but struggles somewhat if if has to come in and take prior damage. It is a much better counter if it outspeeds us or if starts running Surf instead of Earthquake and Ice Beam as its offensive moves (which is currently does not). Note that cookie-cutter defensive Mew only runs Ice Beam as its attack and runs Will-o-Wisp, which we lol at and murder it for.

Double Dance Mew does keep us out, since it OHKOs with Genesis Supernova and also with Psychic at +2. If we are faster than it, however, it struggles to come into us as we still easily 2HKO it with physical or special bias. This makes it a possible check, but not a counter or wall.

Pyroak (Defensive)

252- Atk Life Orb Typhlosion Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 118-140 (26.6 - 31.6%) -- 48.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Pyroak Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Typhlosion: 90-106 (30.3 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

- Pyroak pretty much only runs a physically defensive set. Such a set would have trouble switching in to a Physical 25F, since it is so slow and we can thus hit it 4 times before it hits us 3. It is hopeless against a Special 25f:

252 SpA Life Orb Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pyroak: 224-265 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

- It is fair to say that Pyroak checks us (especially if we bias physical); we can't risk switching into a Life Orb Pyroak since it threatens to OHKO with Earthquake, and a defensive Pyroak will be able to spam Giga Drain and synthesis to stall us out from there. It's a shaky counter though, given just how hard we can still hit it.

I will post more later, but as I go through these calcs it becomes clear - for CAP25f, our question is not "how do we make this good", but "how do we make sure this thing can still be answered?". We need to be extremely cautious in our future stages.

 

[VannAccessible]

Is it too early to mention CAP25w here, in regards to being a Switch in to CAP25f?

Seeing as we have the benefit of designing three mons together in the meta, and we voted for a Fire Neutral/Ground resistant defensive Water mon, it seems only natural CAP25w should switch comfortably into our Fire/Ground type, a niche other defensive Waters such as Toxapex will struggle with.

 

[Frostbiyt]

Checking more assumptions, again using just Fire/Ground Life Orb Blaze Typhlosion as a sort of "baseline" (I gave it the same physical offenses as it has special to compare both). If I don't comment on a Pokemon from Frostbiyt's list here, assume I either assumed it was true or that I checked it and, yeah, that Pokemon does indeed threaten CAP25f.



252 SpA Life Orb Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 226-266 (62.4 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252- Atk Life Orb Typhlosion Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 242-286 (66.8 - 79%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Typhlosion: 147-174 (49.4 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


- Tornadus is not capable of walling us, and barely pressures us. Of course this physical set takes a ton in both recoil and rocky helmet damage, but it's not a great answer to us. Taking neutral fire damage is just too much pain. Things look worse for the Flynium-Z set since it doesn't invest in bulk, although it at least scares us away if its Z-crystal is intact.




252 SpA Life Orb Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 220 SpD Assault Vest Colossoil: 140-165 (34.3 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Colossoil Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Typhlosion: 422-498 (142 - 167.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

- Assault Vest Colossoil is an effective switch-in and wall to Special-biased 25f, capable of soaking two powerful STAB attacks and OHKOing with Earthquake. It struggles more against a physical set though:

252- Atk Life Orb Typhlosion Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Colossoil: 253-300 (62.1 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

- As we are likely to outspeed it, it cannot afford to switch into us as we can 2HKO it before it gets to put its Earthquake to good use. Flame Orb sets fair no better; they are better checks because they also get close to a OHKO with Knock Off (assuming Typhlosion-levels of bulk), but have no chance of switching in safely to physical or special 25f and still likely are outsped and take heavy damage in a free shoot-out against us.


252- Atk Life Orb Typhlosion Flare Blitz vs. 240 HP / 156 Def Mew: 175-207 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 208-246 (51.8 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Mew Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Typhlosion: 158-188 (53.1 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

A standard Defensive Earthquake Mew is 2HKOd by a special set's fire attacks even with Leftovers recovery, making it a very shaky answer to us. It can theoretically stall out a physical set, but struggles somewhat if if has to come in and take prior damage. It is a much better counter if it outspeeds us or if starts running Surf instead of Earthquake and Ice Beam as its offensive moves (which is currently does not). Note that cookie-cutter defensive Mew only runs Ice Beam as its attack and runs Will-o-Wisp, which we lol at and murder it for.

Double Dance Mew does keep us out, since it OHKOs with Genesis Supernova and also with Psychic at +2. If we are faster than it, however, it struggles to come into us as we still easily 2HKO it with physical or special bias. This makes it a possible check, but not a counter or wall.


252- Atk Life Orb Typhlosion Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 118-140 (26.6 - 31.6%) -- 48.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Pyroak Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Typhlosion: 90-106 (30.3 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

- Pyroak pretty much only runs a physically defensive set. Such a set would have trouble switching in to a Physical 25F, since it is so slow and we can thus hit it 4 times before it hits us 3. It is hopeless against a Special 25f:

252 SpA Life Orb Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pyroak: 224-265 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

- It is fair to say that Pyroak checks us (especially if we bias physical); we can't risk switching into a Life Orb Pyroak since it threatens to OHKO with Earthquake, and a defensive Pyroak will be able to spam Giga Drain and synthesis to stall us out from there. It's a shaky counter though, given just how hard we can still hit it.

I will post more later, but as I go through these calcs it becomes clear - for CAP25f, our question is not "how do we make this good", but "how do we make sure this thing can still be answered?". We need to be extremely cautious in our future stages.

OK, so I'll remove Torn-T, move Colossoil to the SpA section, and I'll keep Mew and Pyroak where they are.

 

[GMars]

Ferrothorn/Heatran: Both are 4x weak to STAB and have massively resisted STABs. Even with Power Whip Ferrothorn is piss slow, so I don't see it doing very much. If they are not in the switch in category I will actually quit CAP.

Quick thing, CAP25f cannot safely switch into any Heatran set except certain fully Specially Defensive variants, because all other sets run Earth Power (even full SpDef does too sometimes, though it's rarer), which OHKOes a dummy spread of 75/75/75 after Stealth Rock.

calc

252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP25f (75 Base HP, 75 Base SpD): 248-294 (85.2 - 101%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[hawk1113]

OK, so I'll remove Torn-T, move Colossoil to the SpA section, and I'll keep Mew and Pyroak where they are.

Maybe it's a miss on terminology but I don't know if that was my conclusion.

-Pokémon A checks a Pokémon B set if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into that Pokémon B set, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.
-Pokémon A counters a Pokémon B set if Pokémon A can manually switch into that Pokémon B set, and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

So traditional Defensive Earthquake Mew is a check to Physical 25f (if given a free switch, it should win every time), and is not a check or a counter for Special 25f. We can move defensive Mew to a counter if we want, by simply ensuring we are always outsped by neutral univested Mew. It will never be a switch-in or wall, however; neutral damage is too stronk from this typing. We're talking sets today as they are played in-meta; of course theoretically the existence of 25f causes a new "Specially Defensive Mew" set with Surf/Scald/Liquidation and enough speed to exactly outspeed us to become meta just to deal with us, but the standard defensive set now is not that.

Double Dance Mew pressures both sets; it isn't a true check or counter due to too many variables, but if it still has its Z-crystal or if it's allowed to set up, there's nothing we can do to harm it before it explodes our brain with its powerful Psychic STAB. We thus would be cautious about coming in on a mutual switch if its Z-crystal is intact, lest we just die to Genesis.

Likewise, we can split Pyroak into two sets:

- Offensive Pyroak is a check to any and all builds of 25f; it cannot afford to manually switch into us, but it has the natural bulk to take a hit and OHKO with Earthquake if given a free switch.

- Physically Defensive Pyroak is a check to Physical 25f only; if it comes in on a move it will get out-actioned and out gunned, and it simply dies to Special 25f without causing much damage. With a free switch, however, it likely staves us off and wears us down with Giga Drain/Leech Seed/Synthesis, especially if we are using recoil moves.

- Neither Pyroak is a counter unless we are slower than it (not likely, given how slow Pyroak is), since it takes massive damage from switching in manually.

Is it too early to mention CAP25w here, in regards to being a Switch in to CAP25f?

Seeing as we have the benefit of designing three mons together in the meta, and we voted for a Fire Neutral/Ground resistant defensive Water mon, it seems only natural CAP25w should switch comfortably into our Fire/Ground type, a niche other defensive Waters such as Toxapex will struggle with.

I think it's a fair thing to consider; we should make sure as we do final stat distribution that 25w can beat us as well. Most Water STABs do, but I think it's fair to say we want it to be a safe switch-in and true counter to us, meaning we'll need it to have the speed to outspeed us or the bulk to stomach (multiple) neutral fire hits. I am not TL, but I think it's definitely a thing we should focus on since 25f is going to have so much power and so few safe switch-ins.

 

[SunshineFuture]

Pelipper absolutely walls us. Not only does it resists Fire and is immune to Ground, but Drizzle makes Fire do even less. Gliscor is actually not a counter by any stretch. A dummy spread of 110 Atk and SpA 2HKOs Gliscor regardless of our bias. GMars did the calcs for me. I’m on mobile so I can’t show them.