CAP 25 - Part 5 - Threats Discussion

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#51
The following Pokemon effortlessly switch-in to CAP25g and hard counter it, using a dummy spread of 88 in all stats and maximum offensive investment with a neutral nature. I am being strict here, and listing only Pokemon that absolutely demolish 25g even if we outspeed it, have priority, or dramatically increase our offensive stats or tankiness - we lose to these, straight up, without very specific coverage.

Counter Any Build of 25g:

Heatran (all sets)
Jumbao (Drought builds are super deadly, but Wish sets can tank anything we dish out, even HPs, and possibly 2HKO with Moonblast)
Necturna (all sets but especially the V-create All-out Attacker set)
Pajantom (all sets; Z-Offense sets just crush us with Ice Punch or Outrage, while Defensive sets trap us with Spirit Shackle and then grind us out)
Chansey (stalls out Physical sets as well as Special without SE CoveragE)
Cyclohm (all sets)
Magnezone (all sets, since it near-always carries HP Fire)
Pyroak (all sets)
Scizor (Mega) (all sets)
Zapdos (all sets)
Cawmodore (w/ Volt Absorb uses us as set-up bait and OHKOs once it has Drummed Up)
Kyurem-B (all sets)
Latios (Mega)
Latias (Mega) (can set up CM and 2HKO us with Stored Power before we whittle it down)
Marowak-Alola (with Volt Absorb)
Venusaur (Mega) (all sets)
Tangrowth (Assault Vest set)
Amoonguss (All sets)
Charizard (Mega-X) (all sets)
Plasmanta (All sets)
Mollux (all sets, although Defensive does a bit better than Scarf; Scarf could fall to powerful priority)
Heracross (Mega)

Counter Physical 25g Only:
Landorus-T (all sets, but Defensive does better than Flynium. Dies to HP Ice with any reasonable SpA stat)
Zygarde (all sets. Dies to HP Ice with any reasonable SpA stat)
Clefable (Defensive Magic Guard can tank our hits and Soft Boil, knocking off our item, setting rocks, or earning a 2-3HKO with Moonblast. Also can run an aggressive Life Orb Flamethrower/Ice Beam set that hurts us pretty bad. Unware Cleric is a better matchup for us, and a safe switch-in opportunity).
Tapu Bulu (wouldn't love coming in on a strong HP, but all sets can use a physical 25g as set-up bait or easy pickings)
Tangrowth (Physically Defensive set)
Serperior (almost always carries HP: Fire, and even HP: Ice is a bit shaky for us to stop it but its possible with better SpA)

Counters Special 25g only:
Magearna (Double Dance and AV Sets; Shift Gear sets are more of a check)
Muk-Alola (Assault Vest)

A few musings:

- We do predictably badly versus most Fire and Dragon types, and for the most part that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

- Because our resists largely don't help us in stopping Grass, Steel, and Electrics, we should probably be thinking Offense and not Defense.

- Despite our Bug weakness, only Scizor is a true counter - the rest will probably be more like a Check, as they'll all generally not love eating STAB electric moves.

- This is a lot of stuff that shuts us down, and part of me thinks we should aim to have the ability to beat Ground Dragon/Ground Flyings (Lando, Zygarde) more easily.

- We should consider having better game versus Grass, especially Jumbao - most grasses wall us which is sad.

EDIT: I cleaned a few things based on conversation, added Kyu-B who I just plain forgot, and highlighted in blue mons who are STILL counters even if we give our Pokemon 90+ BP Ice coverage. If we did such a thing, everything not in blue becomes a Check instead of a Counter due to our newfound ability to murder them. Latias-M is a special case and got a different coloration; if we did give 25g powerful ice coverage on the special side it still counters, but on the physical side it dies, oh how it dies.

EDIT the 2nd: Moved Clefable as a I reran some calcs based on Luc's comments below and decided it isn't really a counter to special sets given how much damage it would take with more reasonable offensive stats, and specificied it is only certain builds (Defensive Unware Support) that actually wall us out. I stand by the rest of this, and double-checked Chansey to be sure.
 
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#52
Following hawk1113 Check and Counter list, with a bit more offensive power (95/95 with favorable nature, a 90 BP STAB move and maximum offensive investment) there are some pokemons that may dissapear from there

252+ Atk Abomasnow Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 124-147 (38.3 - 45.5%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Abomasnow Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heracross-Mega: 126-148 (41.7 - 49%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Abomasnow Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 165-195 (47 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Abomasnow Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Victini: 130-154 (38.1 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Probably, we will need even more offensive to secure the 2HKO on Heatran and a high speed stat to outspeed Victini wich resembles more to the CAP25f (unless we make Zap Cannon viable).

This is a lot of stuff that shuts us down, and part of me thinks we should aim to have the ability to beat Ground Dragon/Ground Flyings (Lando, Zygarde) more easily.
Back to your 88 dummy, HP Ice does quite a good job even with a unfavorable nature

252- SpA Abomasnow Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 192-228 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252- SpA Abomasnow Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 220-260 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This means that they can switch only once per game.
 
#53
Following hawk1113 Check and Counter list, with a bit more offensive power (95/95 with favorable nature, a 90 BP STAB move and maximum offensive investment) there are some pokemons that may dissapear from there

252+ Atk Abomasnow Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 124-147 (38.3 - 45.5%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Abomasnow Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heracross-Mega: 126-148 (41.7 - 49%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Abomasnow Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 165-195 (47 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Abomasnow Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Victini: 130-154 (38.1 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Probably, we will need even more offensive to secure the 2HKO on Heatran and a high speed stat to outspeed Victini wich resembles more to the CAP25f (unless we make Zap Cannon viable).


Back to your 88 dummy, HP Ice does quite a good job even with a unfavorable nature

252- SpA Abomasnow Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 192-228 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252- SpA Abomasnow Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 220-260 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This means that they can switch only once per game.
All four Pokes you listed still destroy us with their STAB, so they'd at least be checks. I also don't love that we don't have a guaranteed 2HKO versus Heatran and Heracross - I think they'll always be counters to us. That being said, fair enough - 88 offenses is awful low especially since I think we are compelled to make an offensive 'mon. I will remove Victini (who is too squishy to be a true counter to any set, and is more of a check if we have more mustard to our offense), and move Muk-A to "Special only", as it traditionally runs Assault Vest.

As to your HP: Ice comment, that's why I put Lando and Zygarde into "physical only" - we do threaten 2HKOs with 252 SpA and even a crummy SpA stat, so they are not reliable counters to a special 25g at all (especially since we'd be strongly incentivized to try for pseudo bolt-beam coverage). That's also why Gliscor is not even listed; most Gliscor sets don't have the physical bulk to stomach a Power Whip or Wood Hammer and love it, and specially defensive Gliscor eats HP Ice.
 

Gross Sweep

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#54
CAP 25G is definitely an interesting threat list to consider since we don't know the role our mon is going to be qualified as. If it goes offensive or defensive some things are bound to change. I've compiled a list of mons that I feel will at the very least pressure our starter. Obviously some mons with 4x weaknesses will be checked by special variants of our starter, but that's just semantics so I'll include mons with this weakness for now.

Once again this is a list will range from check to counter alongside a few mons who simply pressure, with the key similarity being that they should all make it onto our final threat list in some fashion.

Shell Smash and Shift Gear Necturna are extremely potent threats in the current metagame, and as things stand currently this massive threat will likely use our starter as a set up opportunity. Making this a very clear pressure situation, could be considered a check, however, in practice Necturna isn't something you just hard in often making this a clear situation of Pressure.

Pajantom resists both our stabs, and has the bulk to come in against any resisted hit even if we go more offensive. Very easily a switch in to our starter to be. I would be comfortable stating that Pajantom should switch in to our starter no matter its set be it bulky or Choice Band.

Our stabs are resisted, and Pyroak can hit us for SE damage. Also we give Pyroak an opportunity to set rocks. Couple all this with Pyroak having solid recovery in Synthesis, and you're most likely looking at a counter. For any bulky sets at least, if someone is out there running Specs Pyroak it is probably a check and not a counter.

Cawmadore resists our Grass type attacks and is immune to our Electric moves. I would hardly call Caw a switch in to any mon, but it might just be a decent switch in to our starter. at the very least Caw will obviously pressure our starter, with the Belly Drum set threatening us at every turn.

Has no business switching in to our neutral attacks, but will likely threaten our starter from an offensive standpoint. When facing off vs a standard Coil set I feel this is a 1v1 we are bound to lose making M-Cruci an offensive check who greatly pressures us.

Resists our stabs and often carries Flamethrower. We should basically lose to this mon if Cyclohm is carrying a fire move, and possibly even Draco depending on the bulk our starter ends up with. A very poor match up indeed.

Resists our stabs, and has decent bulk. No recovery makes me hesitant to call this a counter, but both the Offensive and Defensive sets from Smog analysis should be labeled as switch ins.

Serperior resists our stabs, and can use our starter for a boost or two, and then hit it with a HP Fire. Obviously Serp shouldn't be called a counter, but it should be a check, and possibly just downgraded to pressure if our starter is to powerful offensively. Great natural typing to take on our starter, but lack of bulk and relies on HP Fire to hit back - so best to go with check.

Similar situation as Serperior, but has much more bulk. Sets with HP Ice and HP Fire should be a solid stop to our starter. Finishing up with Sludge Bomb sets all but making Tangrowth a counter. No natural recovery, but Regenerator will definitely make up for this throughout the game. Defensive, mixed AV, and standard AV should get the job done.

SpDef SD just gets the job done. Sets up on us, and has useful recovery. Our starter has no business messing with Tapu Bulu, call this a counter in almost any sense of the word. not going to drag this mu out.

Volcarona is a problem. Our electric type moves hit it for neutral, but just hitting it for neutral means it most likely sets up on us which isn't great. We also lose if this mon has already set up, QD Volcarona very directly falls under something volatile that pressures us immensely.

if Zard manages to evolve it resists both our attacks, and hits us SE. Roost 3 attacks breaks us in half + comes in safely. Also Roost DD sets light up when they see us at preview since they believe a sweep is incoming. Safe to call this one a counter after mega evolving, and at the very least a check.

Doesn't do much offensively, but resists our attacks and gets up hazards. A very clear positive exchange for the Ferrothorn in my eyes. Due to lack of offensive force it would be better classified as a check or switch in though.

Should be interesting in how this match up goes down as our role develops. They are immune to Electric moves, and are hit neutrally by Grass moves. They attack back neutrally with both of their stabs/moves they commonly run aside from Lando HP Ice and Garchomp Fire Blast hitting SE. These mons are interesting since they're all diverse running multiple sets with the common weakness in special sets with HP Ice would give our starter a strong edge. That said I see more of a stale mate in most of these matchups, perhaps a slight lead to the Grounds if we take a more offensive approach lowering our bulk. That said I expect a bit of a stalemate between these 4 and our starter. I would however give an edge to Bulky DD zygardes, and SD variants of the others. set up variants probably classify as pressures, and other variants are more neutral with the better played side winning.

Heatran is a check. Comes in a few times, but shouldn't reliably be coming in on electric moves throughout the entirety of a game. Could possibly classify offensive Trans as pressures since they don't love coming in if opponent predicts right and clicks an electric move, with bulkier variants such as defensive or just utility with max speed and hp as checks.

Resists our stabs and often carries HP Fire. I've seen this discussed as a check, and I am on board with that as we come in safely, and most likely Volt Switch out/predict and Flash Cannon the incoming Ground type attack. I don't think we'll really scare it with HP Fire, but should still be able to take advantage of it.

Big Bad Kyurem resists our stabs and scares us with its Ice type stabs. Z-Freeze Shock sets check us pretty solidly and should classify as a check. Life Orb sets with Roost probably comes closer to a Counter as it can still hit us extremely hard while healing off our minimal damage.

Both of the Lati twins counter us. Similar to Life Orb Kyurem Lati@s Roosts of not very effective hits and hits back hard. 3 attacks sets with either Ice Beam or HP Fire will hit us SE and deal big damage. CM M-Latias sets also use us as bait, and take advantage pretty easily. This is pretty easily an all sets counter.

Resists our attacks, and hits back neutrally with Moon Blast. Top that off with all the recovery Jumbao has and it's looking like a counter, especially when you throw in sun boosted Flame Burst. The only sets I wouldn't call a counter are scarf and specs since they can't heal off the damage meaning they'll eventually get worn down.

This wraps things up for me. Everything here uses natural typing advantages to make it's way on my list of pressures to checks to counters. Some of these I could possibly see not making their way onto the final threat list based on the decision to go special or not granting Hidden Powers with some umph. Other than that I'm happy with the list.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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#55
The tricky thing about the Grass/Electric typing is that it is supposed to be some sort of specialist, yet we have yet to define what kind of specialization we want to do. This makes it incredibly hard to determine what kind of switch-ins and checks this pokemon will want, since we don;t even know that this mon even wants to do. I hope this is something that we can figure sometime during this discussion, otherwise I would like to come back to this mon's threatlist once we decided what it even is.

However, the least we can do is decide the checks and counters for it, since those will be pretty staple no matter what stats or coverage we give it within the starter reasoning. Once again, this is completely devoiding any sort of possible coverage they may have, so it is subject to change. I'm not exactly going to do any calcs for this since we know so little of what we want to do with it, but I'll try to use some sort of reasoning

hawk1113 already has a list of "counters" that could work for it, although I completely disagree with his pitiful joke of stats. However, a few points are extremely rock solid. Belly Drum Cawmodore is in actuality possibly the best check to any major set that could be put together, as it is immune to Electric STAB thanks to Volt Absorb and takes practically nothing from any sort of Grass STAB, and can at least set up on it and can just kill it with Drain Punch if +6 Acrobatics isn't for some reason working. Heatran (all variants) is also very solid resisting our Grass STAB, and I see it as unlikely to be broken through with Electric STAB due to its bulk, while it can kill us with Magma Storm/Fire Blast. Pajantom (all variants) can switch into both resisted STABs and is immune to any status tricks with Comatose, and can either shred us with attacks or wear us down with Spirit Shackle. Pyroak is phenomenal due to its resistence to both STABs and the ability to knock us out with Lava Plume. Plasmanta/Mollux both are resistant to our STABs and can threaten them out with Poison moves. Plasmanta is also immune to any thunder wave hax as well.
 
#56
Without doing any more calcs, since we don't have a defined role and I don't want to softball it anymore or overshoot it, here are a few mons that seem like, on paper just looking at typing, would be switch-ins for us but in practice we cannot switch into. Instead, these mons at least pressure 25g, and many of them check 25g.

- All forms of Greninja check us despite fearing out dual stabs. Ash-Greninja is blisteringly fast and its Dark Pulse hits insanely hard once transformed; it can then finish us off even with a resisted Shuriken regardless of our own speed. Protean Greninja often carries Ice Beam or Gunk Shot, either of which is absolutely devastating, and is a pretty fast 'mon itself. We're going to have a hard time switching in on Greninja, and on a mutual switch-in may still find ourselves outsped and outgunned.

- While we have a 4x resist to its primary STAB, Electric Terrain still means it hits hard. Specced Dazzling Gleam or HP Ice mangle us, it is fast enough to polish us off, and it we are able to pressure it most non-Spec sets can just U-turn out and take a big ol' whack out of our healthbar. We can switch-in on Specs Koko that we know is locked into Thunderbolt, but if we're unsure we'll need to be extremely careful.

- It's mutually assured destruction here. If it goes first, there is very little we can do to not just die to fire attacks. If we go first, it doesn't have the bulk to live an electric move and honestly doesn't even love stomaching our grass attacks.

- Arghonaut often runs Gunk Shot or Ice Punch, either of which is devastating for us to switch into. Our physical sets also have to worry about giving it free turns to set up, soak a SE attack, and kill us.

- Diancie pressures us and keeps us out. I did quick calcs of solid (95/95/95, a little investment) bulk, and while our Grass stab is extremely threatening to Diancie we can't easily switch in as almost everything it carries is likely doing 50% or more.

- Specifically Guts Dragon Dance Naviathan. Such a set often carries either Facade or Icicle Crash, which are somewhere between 75% and a OHKO on us depdending on our bulk, not the kind of thing we can easily come in on. A free turn to set up makes it awful fast, so while it fears our electric moves it is not a Pokemon we look forward to coming in against. CM Naviathan is not seen much, but we destroy it even if we're specially biased so that's cool at least.

- Stratagem isn't a strict check, but it definitely pressures us and keeps us out. Rock attacks, whether it is Paleo Wave from the Levitate set or Ancient Power from the Technician set, hits surprisingly hard since we don't resist it. Stratagem is very fast, and we likely can't build a mon that can tank that kind of firepower repeatedly in a match - indeed, with that 95/95/95 spread we're taking 60% so it flat-out beats us if we switch in and mangles or revenges us on a free switch.

- While this thing obviously dies to even bad Grass stab, Ice Punch is a devastating coverage move that should give us serious pause, especially in the rain. We can probably get the bulk to live a single Ice Punch, but we're still checked and we definitely can't just switch into this guy willy nilly especially since we don't resist Ground so we take basically exactly as much from Earthquake as we do punch (in most all circumstances).


I just wanted to focus on highly ranked water, rock, and electric types - obviously stuff like Sylcant, M-Pinsir, Aurumoth, Weavile, Mamoswine, and Gengar also all likely check 25g, but that should be expected given our type disadvantage against those frail but powerful attackers.
 
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#57
- While this thing obviously dies to even bad Grass stab, Ice Punch is a devastating coverage move that should give us serious pause, especially in the rain. We can probably get the bulk to live a single Ice Punch, but we're still checked and we definitely can't just switch into this guy willy nilly especially since we don't resist Ground so we take nearly as much from Earthquake as we do punch.
Just a minor correction, EQ does exactly the same amount of damage as Ice Punch to 25g.
100 BP EQ * 1.5 STAB = 150 effective power
75 BP IP * 2 SE = 150 effective power

EDIT: As pointed out by GMars on Discord, due to the way the game calculates STAB and SE, Ice Punch technically deals 1 HP more than Earthquake in this situation but only on certain rolls.
 
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#58
Just a minor correction, EQ does exactly the same amount of damage as Ice Punch to 25g.
100 BP EQ * 1.5 STAB = 150 effective power
75 BP IP * 2 SE = 150 effective power

EDIT: As pointed out by GMars on Discord, due to the way the game calculates STAB and SE, Ice Punch technically deals 1 HP more than Earthquake in this situation but only on certain rolls.
Fair point and I'll edit it.

The last piece of the puzzle, and the hardest, is what we switch in on. Whether we can switch in on neutral hits or various tanks is something we'll know better once we have a defined role and an idea of which way our stats might lean. However, initially here's a list of stuff we can switch in on:


Switch-in and Threaten regardless of build!

Tomohawk (Standard Defensive set only) (and we probably win!)
Gastrodon (all sets) ( get rekt)
Skarmory (all sets) (get rekt)
Toxapex (all sets) (get rekt)
Naviathan (CM sets only)
Pelipper (defensive sets only)
Suicune (all sets)
Rotom-W (all sets)
Alomomola (all sets)
Mantine (all sets)
Quagsire (all sets)

There's a few important notes here though:

- We can soak any attack a lot of these 'mons dish out and likely threaten a clean OHKO or 2HKO depending on build, but may not love getting Burned or Toxiced by them. Depending on our role and abilities, some of these may still have okay matchups or be able to cripple us.

- I did not list Ferrothorn; standard Ferrothorn has absolutely no ability to hurt us but without coverage (or HP: Fire) we can't tickle it either. As Gross Sweep pointed out, if Ferro gets to come in, set up or clear hazards, and heal without being pressured its already won, so it's actually a really bad matchup despite us "walling" it. Fidgit got left off the list for a similar reason, but even more so since it packs U-turn to wear us down and a decent speed tier.

- Tomohawk's defensive/utility set is probably its most common, and we can build to muscle past it without taking much chip damage. Offensive and Stallbreaker sets are more checks to us - we don't resist Fighting or Flying, so we take big huge chunks of damage if we just come in on it unless we also outspeed it (the 95/95/95 defenses set takes 80-95% from Focus Miss, with a 56% chance of being OHKOd with Rocks up). As that was a primary draw of this typing (Grass that beats on Tomo), I think outspeeding it is crucial. Fortunately that's a low bar to clear, but it bears keeping in mind.

- We have potential to switch in to a lot more if we went as a defensive specialist, as Grass/Electric is one of the few typings with no 4x weaknesses to sweat. But so many of the things we "resist" or are "SE against" carry powerful coverage or have insane BSTs, that I just don't see it happening. Part of this 'mons challenge is that it just isn't going to have a ton of free switches.

- I looked at Gyarados but mega 'dos is dealing a big chunk of damage with Crunch, and Flynium Z Gyarados OHKOs if it still has its Z-crystal, and possibly destroys us if it got a boost with Dragon Dance. Overall there was too many "ifs" to include it as a switchin but if it helps, Flynium Gyarados is a switch in if it hasn't boosted and if it has already used its crystal.
 

GMars

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#59
As far as Pokemon that CAP25g can switch into easily, it's not a long list and a lot of the mons come with single-set caveats:

Offensive CAP25g (80/80/80 dummy spread, uninvested) switches in on: (get ready to see the number 40 a lot, ordered roughly from best to shakiest)

Toxapex: Scald burns aren't fun but Defensive Pex can only handle us with status and we should force it out with our electric STAB.
Suicune: Sub Calm Mind Suicune typically runs mono-Scald, but even tech Ice Beams only do ~40% unboosted.
Rotom-W: Defensive Rotom-W can only do ~25% with Hydro Pump or pivot out with a 4x resisted Volt Switch.
Tapu Fini: Defensive Tapu Fini only does ~40% with Moonblast, and Nature's Madness does 44% after Stealth Rock with the first hit.
Gastrodon: Defensive Gastrodon does ~40% with Earthquake and we definitely force it out with Grass STAB.
Skarmory: Defensive Skarmory's Brave Bird does ~40%, Electric STAB should force it out.
,
,
C rank waters: Alomomola, Mantine, Quagsire: Alomomola and Mantine can only use status to deal with CAP25g, while Quagsire only does ~40% with EQ.
---
Tomohawk: Defensive sets do ~40% with Air Slash (noticing a pattern yet?), but CAP25g can't switch into offensive sets.
Naviathan: We can't stomach a Flame Orb Facade from Dragon Dance Naviathan, but we should beat Calm Mind Naviathan handily.
Pelipper: Defensive non-Hurricane Pelipper does about 25% with U-turn and roughly the same with Scald, but Hurricane can 2HKO after rocks and we don't switch into Specs Pelipper at all.
Clefable: Moonblast from defensive Clefable does less than half and we're immune to Thunder Wave, but Flamethrower or even Ice Beam on CM Clefable breaks through us easily.
Slowking: Defensive Slowking does ~40% with Psyshock, but a good portion of CAP Slowking are offensive which CAP25g can't handle.
Fidgit: Non-Sludge Bomb variants of Trick Room Fidgit can't 2HKO offensive CAP25g with Earthquake or Earth Power, and U-turn does less than half.
Jirachi: Defensive Wish and Stealth Rock variants do less than half with U-turn, but offensive Ice Punch or Fire Punch variants 2HKO, and not sure if the Electric STAB will be strong enough to reliably force defensive Jirachi sets out.
Gliscor: Defog or Stallbreaker Gliscor sets that don't invest into Attack do less than half with an unboosted EQ, but they do have a chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

We can also switch into but can't really force out with STAB alone:
Ferrothorn - We resist Gyro Ball and Power Whip from defensive Ferrothorn and are immune to Leech Seed but can't do much back at all.
Tangrowth - Non-Sludge Bomb Assault Vest or Physically Defensive Tangrowth only does ~40% with a super effective Hidden Power, but again we can't do much back with our STAB.
 

reachzero

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#60
Here is our compilation for CAP 25g.

Toxapex: Defensive, SpD

Gastrodon: all sets

Rotom-w: all sets

Tapu Fini: Defensive

Skarmory: all sets

Tomohawk: Defensive

Kartana: Scarf

Naviathan: Calm Mind

Clefable: Defensive (without Flamethrower)

Fidgit: Utility

Jirachi: Defensive

Ferrothorn: all sets



Mega Crucibelle: all sets

Crucibelle: all sets

Mega Diancie: all sets

Greninja: all sets

Stratagem: all sets

Tornadus-Therian: all sets

Tomohawk: Offensive

Heatran: all sets

Volkraken: all sets




Jumbao: all sets

Necturna: all sets

Pajantom: all sets

Pyroak: all sets

Cyclohm: all sets

Magnezone: all sets

Cawmodore: all sets

Kyurem-b: all sets

Mega Latios and Mega Latias: all sets

Tangrowth: Def (Physical only), Assault Vest

Amoonguss: all sets

Ferrothorn: all sets with at least one entry hazard or Toxic

Mega Charizard-X: all sets

Magearna: Assault Vest (Special only)


Finally, now is the time to bring up anything that got missed along the way, but particularly l would like to ask are there any Pokemon on the checks and counters list that would so catastrophic to the viability of any of our starters that they must be addressed in later stages?

This thread will close in 24 hours.
 

GMars

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#61
For our Grass starter, being setup fodder for Shell Smash Necturna could be really troublesome depending on the ultimate role it finds itself into. There are a number of ways to deal with this from a movepool standpoint, and I believe this should be in some way addressed.

For CAP25f, being unable to break through Clefable would be a sad result for such a promising typing that has the potential to shut it down so well. If it's left unable to break through it, Clefable can use it to set up Calm Minds or simply pass Wishes around on it, flipping CAP25f from an amazing Clefable switch-in into complete Clef bait. I believe that this too should be addressed in later stages to avoid it damaging CAP25f’s viability too heavily.
 
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#62
for an offensive mon such as cap25f, being walled by tomohawk, the most common wall of the meta, would be desastrous. It is a smaller problem for cap25w since it is a defensive mon that can still do its job of walling some offensive threats even if tomohawk can pass it.
 

reachzero

the pastor of disaster
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#63
for an offensive mon such as cap25f, being walled by tomohawk, the most common wall of the meta, would be desastrous. It is a smaller problem for cap25w since it is a defensive mon that can still do its job of walling some offensive threats even if tomohawk can pass it.
I strongly disagree with this. Tomohawk is one of the very easiest Pokemon in the metagame to lure, and very easy to counter as well. I think maintaining Tomohawk as a check for (physical) CAP 25f is far from catastrophic. To give you an idea of what I mean, this is a typical CAP metagame Mega Scizor set:

Scizor @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Toxic
- Roost


Considering the probably of being paired with something like Koko or Zapdos or Pajantom or Mega Scizor, I do not think Tomohawk constitutes a "catastrophic" counter to any Pokemon.
 
#64
The fact that Jumbao pressures 25f (ostensibly the 'mon with the best chance of pummeling it) and counters 25g and 25w seems borderline catastrophic in terms of any of these 'mons being viable in the meta. I think pressuring 25f is fine, since it's only the scarf set in particular, but I definitely think one of the two needs to be able to handle it and 25g seems like our best bet since we at least resist Solar Beam/Energy Ball; with the right coverage moves it could easily dispatch the most recent CAP. I'd love it if we got non-Flame Burst Jumbao to be a nonissue for 25g, and Drought Flame Burst Jumbao to pressure us instead of hard countering us.

25w in general seems to be in a bad place with 20 checks and counters (compared to 13 or 14 for the other two), especially since some of 25f and 25g's checks and counters are low ranked or specific sets, wheras 25w's check, counter, and pressure list reads "most of A and S rank". Sincerely I don't know which mons to remove or how to fix it - but that list is just way too big for me to feel confident keeping this thing viable. Tentatively, it seems like at least one of the following would help:

- A way to punish or ignore Status (as from Toxapex, Gastrodon, and non-offensive Necturna)
- Powerful anti-flying coverage (to bust Gyarados, Pelipper, Tornadus, Tomohawk, and Hawlucha)
- A way to punish, prevent, or clear hazards (to stop Ferrothorn, defensive Necturna, and Toxapex)
- A way to punish, prevent, reset, or outrace setup (to beat Hawlucha, offensive Necturna, and Crucibelle, Naviathan, Belly Drum Azumaril, etc etc)

I'm most partial to the last of those; I'd like it if we could agree for Naviathan, Azumarill, Hawlucha, and Arghonaut (despite not being super high-rated) to not be on our check and counter list and to find a way around those 'mons later, as doing so is likely to also improve our matchup against stuf we're supposed to beat anyways like Zygarde and Scizor.
 
#65
I already explained why I think Pokemon like Gastrodon or Arghonaut shouldn't be listed as counters to CAP 25w. I also agree with GMars that CAP 25F being unable to hit significantly Clefable makes no sense, especially since it's written that Physical CAP 25f would struggle against Clef despite its bulk being average at best, which would suggest that CAP 25f would either suffer from an average Attack stat or a lack of strong physical STAB.

Besides, are we allowed to talk about the switches lists as well ? Seeing that Pokemon like Tapu Koko and Kartana aren't among CAP 25g's switches kinda worries me since it's supposed to be used both as an Offensive and Defensive Pokemon.
 

G-Luke

We Eat Losers
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#66
I personally think that Jumbao should only counter 25w. I think it would be be interesting and unique for CAP 25g to have a positive match-up against some traditional Grass checks, as it already has different match-ups from what most Grass types traditionally have (Ground types, Flying types)

Yh and CAP 25f being checked by a very great Pokemon it would have a very strong match-up type wise in Clef able is very wrong. And making Jumbao pressure CAP 25f will probably place awkward pressure onto the ability or stats phase to ensure that Jumbo cannot lose 100% it.
 
#67
I would like it if CAP25g was not in a stalemate position when confronted with Ferrothorn. I don’t like the fact that neither can do much against the other.

So some coverage to hit Ferro SE would be nice.
 

G-Luke

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#68
I would like it if CAP25g was not in a stalemate position when confronted with Ferrothorn. I don’t like the fact that neither can do much against the other.

So some coverage to hit Ferro SE would be nice.
Worse since Ferrothorn would easily have the advantage, being able to potentially knock off items, set up hazards and even the unheard of Toxic.
 

Gross Sweep

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#69
25w in general seems to be in a bad place with 20 checks and counters (compared to 13 or 14 for the other two), especially since some of 25f and 25g's checks and counters are low ranked or specific sets, wheras 25w's check, counter, and pressure list reads "most of A and S rank". Sincerely I don't know which mons to remove or how to fix it - but that list is just way too big for me to feel confident keeping this thing viable. Tentatively, it seems like at least one of the following would help:

- A way to punish or ignore Status (as from Toxapex, Gastrodon, and non-offensive Necturna)
- Powerful anti-flying coverage (to bust Gyarados, Pelipper, Tornadus, Tomohawk, and Hawlucha)
- A way to punish, prevent, or clear hazards (to stop Ferrothorn, defensive Necturna, and Toxapex)
- A way to punish, prevent, reset, or outrace setup (to beat Hawlucha, offensive Necturna, and Crucibelle, Naviathan, Belly Drum Azumaril, etc etc)

I'm most partial to the last of those; I'd like it if we could agree for Naviathan, Azumarill, Hawlucha, and Arghonaut (despite not being super high-rated) to not be on our check and counter list and to find a way around those 'mons later, as doing so is likely to also improve our matchup against stuf we're supposed to beat anyways like Zygarde and Scizor.
I thought this was a very interesting post, since I also have questioned how great CAP 25W can be. I did like this post, had a bit of an issue the last paragraph. Before I address that though since it's basically you explaining the 4th option in a bit more detail I'll just work my way down the list.

1. If we tackle this it will be in the ability section more than likely, if we do it in a solid manner, which while possible could pigeonhole us a little bit to few options. Albeit popular options with a lot of support on Discord, so I'm not to worried about this one causing a true strain when it comes to reviewing meeting our goals, but probably isn't best given the CAP process and how this would effect that.

2. I don't like this one, most of these can bop us if they want just based on being faster with a super effective move. Like if Gyarados just wanted to click Z-Bounce vs us, a speed invested Pelipper wanted to click Hurricane in the rain, Tornadus wanted to click Hurricane Z or otherwise, Offensive Tomahawk wanted to attack us with its Hurricane, and Hawlucha just clicks Acro and we're gone since these are pretty fast threats for any primarily defensive mon to outpace like we may end up out speeding some since it's not set in stone, but I highly doubt Unburden Lucha is something we'll outpace. I can understand pressuring them from coming in, but based on what's needed (an electric move since Tomahawk is only hit neutral by Rock and listed while Gyara and Peli are neutrally hit by Ice moves) that might be a bit to restrictive towards fitting that kind of move. We might end up with it, and we can address it at a later date, I just think doing something like commiting to that now would be inappropriate at this stage in the process.

3. This is another doable option since there are various options that can be used to meet this requirement. Wouldn't mind this one if I were choosing one of the 4 since various stages could be used to meet this goal.

4. I dislike #4 wanting to beat all of those set up mons. An option just not wanting to be set up bait as a bulkier mon is something I'm more open to, but those are some of the metas biggest threats and hard to justify reliably stopping them without really tunneling on only like 1 or 2 options if we're talking about after they've set up so I'm gonna oppose that one as to restrictive.

With regards to your specific list, Argh while being in the check/counter section is also listed as something we switch into. So that's a very presumably even match up between bulky waters which seems like a decent place for CAP 25W. While there are ways to beat this mon 100% of the time I feel like it would restrict us in the next few stages to honor this since it's such a neutral match up that we'd be stuck with few possible routes to accomplish this. Azu and Naviathin Are checks not counters, and I'm okay with them there. Water types checking opposing waters is a pretty natural thing unless the secondary typings sway the match up. Once again I'm okay if we find a way to not be set up bait - but just eliminating them as threats is a hard sell since the match up will most likely come down to chip damage and game management over 1 just flat out beating the other (though these 2 mons are what I'd be most ok with removing if we had to remove some of these). Hawlucha I am strongly opposed against. The Tapu it is most commonly paired with is Tapu Koko. That means our CAP 25W will most likely not be on the battle field when Hawlucha hits the field, so we can't stop Hawlucha from coming out and setting up more often than not. that said even if you give the water bug 110 HP and 110 Def and max phys bulk you're still not avoiding the 2hko with rocks up.

252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golisopod: 212-252 (50 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

With this you can't reliably stop set up, and you can't reliably avoid a 2hko meaning there are very very few options to actually make Hawlucha a non issue for this mon.

I really don't think we should commit to any of these at this point in time since they're all fairly restrictive if you really think about it, option 3 the least out of the 4. Since while I may think some of these are good ideas I can't in good conscious support them. Like I mentioned before I'm a bit worried about the bug too, but I don't think committing to any of these is the best way to help him. Better to just put out good ideas in the next few phases.
 
#70
I strongly disagree with this. Tomohawk is one of the very easiest Pokemon in the metagame to lure, and very easy to counter as well. I think maintaining Tomohawk as a check for (physical) CAP 25f is far from catastrophic. To give you an idea of what I mean, this is a typical CAP metagame Mega Scizor set:

Scizor @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Toxic
- Roost


Considering the probably of being paired with something like Koko or Zapdos or Pajantom or Mega Scizor, I do not think Tomohawk constitutes a "catastrophic" counter to any Pokemon.
Yes, they are a lot of Tomo lure, but do well really a mon that can only be played with a Tomo lure on the team? Not sure about it.
 
#71
I thought this was a very interesting post, since I also have questioned how great CAP 25W can be. I did like this post, had a bit of an issue the last paragraph. Before I address that though since it's basically you explaining the 4th option in a bit more detail I'll just work my way down the list.

1. If we tackle this it will be in the ability section more than likely, if we do it in a solid manner, which while possible could pigeonhole us a little bit to few options. Albeit popular options with a lot of support on Discord, so I'm not to worried about this one causing a true strain when it comes to reviewing meeting our goals, but probably isn't best given the CAP process and how this would effect that.

2. I don't like this one, most of these can bop us if they want just based on being faster with a super effective move. Like if Gyarados just wanted to click Z-Bounce vs us, a speed invested Pelipper wanted to click Hurricane in the rain, Tornadus wanted to click Hurricane Z or otherwise, Offensive Tomahawk wanted to attack us with its Hurricane, and Hawlucha just clicks Acro and we're gone since these are pretty fast threats for any primarily defensive mon to outpace like we may end up out speeding some since it's not set in stone, but I highly doubt Unburden Lucha is something we'll outpace. I can understand pressuring them from coming in, but based on what's needed (an electric move since Tomahawk is only hit neutral by Rock and listed while Gyara and Peli are neutrally hit by Ice moves) that might be a bit to restrictive towards fitting that kind of move. We might end up with it, and we can address it at a later date, I just think doing something like commiting to that now would be inappropriate at this stage in the process.

3. This is another doable option since there are various options that can be used to meet this requirement. Wouldn't mind this one if I were choosing one of the 4 since various stages could be used to meet this goal.

4. I dislike #4 wanting to beat all of those set up mons. An option just not wanting to be set up bait as a bulkier mon is something I'm more open to, but those are some of the metas biggest threats and hard to justify reliably stopping them without really tunneling on only like 1 or 2 options if we're talking about after they've set up so I'm gonna oppose that one as to restrictive.

With regards to your specific list, Argh while being in the check/counter section is also listed as something we switch into. So that's a very presumably even match up between bulky waters which seems like a decent place for CAP 25W. While there are ways to beat this mon 100% of the time I feel like it would restrict us in the next few stages to honor this since it's such a neutral match up that we'd be stuck with few possible routes to accomplish this. Azu and Naviathin Are checks not counters, and I'm okay with them there. Water types checking opposing waters is a pretty natural thing unless the secondary typings sway the match up. Once again I'm okay if we find a way to not be set up bait - but just eliminating them as threats is a hard sell since the match up will most likely come down to chip damage and game management over 1 just flat out beating the other (though these 2 mons are what I'd be most ok with removing if we had to remove some of these). Hawlucha I am strongly opposed against. The Tapu it is most commonly paired with is Tapu Koko. That means our CAP 25W will most likely not be on the battle field when Hawlucha hits the field, so we can't stop Hawlucha from coming out and setting up more often than not. that said even if you give the water bug 110 HP and 110 Def and max phys bulk you're still not avoiding the 2hko with rocks up.

252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golisopod: 212-252 (50 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

With this you can't reliably stop set up, and you can't reliably avoid a 2hko meaning there are very very few options to actually make Hawlucha a non issue for this mon.

I really don't think we should commit to any of these at this point in time since they're all fairly restrictive if you really think about it, option 3 the least out of the 4. Since while I may think some of these are good ideas I can't in good conscious support them. Like I mentioned before I'm a bit worried about the bug too, but I don't think committing to any of these is the best way to help him. Better to just put out good ideas in the next few phases.
Thank you for the response! To clarify, since I may be misunderstanding things or misspeaking (still new here):

Saying "beat" was wrong. I understand we'll never be able to "beat" Hawlucha or make it not at least a check to us; as you point out even with insane bulk Acrobatics just hits like a truck once it's unburdened. However, my understanding is that if something is on our list of checks and counters, we aren't just acknowledging that we are unlikely to beat it with our typing - we are deciding that we will NOT give this 'mon the tools to threaten those things - we NEED those things to beat us. For instance, Jumbao being a check or counter to 25g means we cannot give it the tools to clean OHKO it and outspeed it under ANY circumstances (including the use of Specs, Scarfs, and Z-crystals), as that would be a failure of our design vision. As I am new, I admit I may be misunderstanding the purpose of that list so if so let me know, but that was my impression.

Due to the above point, I suggested that Pokemon who are capable of, and often do, boost shouldn't be on 25w's Checks and Counters list. I would say we could remove those things from the list and focus on them later and still know that we're never going to have a golden matchup with the Luchadore Birb. But knowing that won't constrain us from giving our 'mon coverage or options at a later stage that can at least make the matchup more interesting and less lopsided, and if it is listed as a Check/Counter to us, I thought we were instead in a boat where we cannot get those options as it would risk Hawlucha not being a counter to us with the right set.

Finally, what I specifically meant (and this is of course for a later stage) is that we should avoid being total set-up bait. Losing to Hawlucha is bad and probably unavoidable given our flying weakness, but the fact that we are also a free turn or two for it to Swords Dance to its hearts content and sweep our entire team is worse. Ditto letting Rev and Argh spam Bulk Up, letting Necturna freely shell smash or shift gears, letting Crucibelle coil, letting Azumaril feel free to Belly Drum, etc. To a lesser extent I had also calced that even though we can hit some psychics SE and resist Zygarde's attacks, their ability to setup makes us not as good a counter to them as I'd like. Double Dance Mew is too dangerous at +2, and if we go Special Latias beats us down with a CM Boost. We also have Zygarde as a switch-in opportunity, but having done a few calcs last week during discussion I'm unsure that'll be true if it gets a chance to SubDance up with relative impunity. This is my mistake, as I said "setup" and "setup" can also mean "Hawlucha consuming its seed for a small boost and an unburden activation after Tapu Whatever has set a terrain", something that is much harder (impossible?) to counter.

I think when it comes to boosting moves, we're in agreement. Suggestion four was more that somehow, I want Hawlucha to feel compelled to click Acrobatics until we die and not have a chance to Swords Dance up and I want Crucibelle to feel compelled to head smash us and not try to Coil, and would consider that as much a win as we're going to get against those 'mons. I do not want us to have the stats to straight-up kill those things (I am not sure we can, given our starter-level BST), but I do think we should be aware that having AN answer to boosting moves in particular is crucial if this 'mon is going to have any ability to influence the metagame.
 

reachzero

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#72
The best points made in this last section were, in my opinion, that Necturna would be a terrible Pokemon to be utter set-up bait for (for CAP 25g in particular), and that 25f should be able to break Clefable. These are good goals for later stages of the project.

That concludes the Threats and Counters stage of the process!

CAP 25f's Threats and Counters can be found here:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cap-25-part-5-threats-discussion.3639996/post-7870058


CAP 25w's Threats and Counters can be found here:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cap-25-part-5-threats-discussion.3639996/post-7872739


CAP 25g's Threats and Counters can be found here:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cap-25-part-5-threats-discussion.3639996/post-7875516

Let us move on, then, to the very heart of this project, the Ability Stage!
 
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