CAP 27 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment

[20Yelram02]

• How important is defensive utility for a Pokemon whose primary function is to support its teammates?

It's not a must. Accelgor and Ribombee could be classified as support, they set webs, that helps the team. They're also some of the most frail fully evolved Pokémon in the game. However, these were the only two mons I could think of off the top of my head that fulfil a support role with no defensive options (I'm probably wrong on what defensive utility is).

• Without Polljumping, how can we achieve defensive utility on a more offensive Pokemon?

Decide on a path to take. Anything said about anything is potential polljumping, also, I don't know.

• And now that we have a grasp on what we define as a support Pokemon -
  • How offensive does CAP27 need to be in order to actualise our concept? Do we consider the above examples of Tornadus-T, Heatran, TankChomp, Cyrogonal etc as good examples of the balance between offense and support that we should aim for?

I feel like these mons are a bit too offensive as they can just run purely attacking sets. They have enough power that they will not be run as support very often (except Tornadus-T and Heatran).

 

[Atha]

How offensive does CAP27 need to be in order to actualise our concept? Do we consider the above examples of Tornadus-T, Heatran, TankChomp, Cyrogonal etc as good examples of the balance between offense and support that we should aim for?

All the examples of good offensive utility mons tend to have a very high powered spammable move (in the same order, Hurricane, Magma Storm, Earthquake, Freeze Dry/Ice Beam) combined with the ability to come in multiple times during a game (thanks to Regenerator, insane amount of resistances and/or good bulk). On all these examples, what makes the mon good is that it can alternatively hold multiple roles during one battle : switchin to some threats, damage dealer, pivot, utility (defog, stealth rock, other). Interestingly, they all have a defensive ability while looking more like offensive mons at first glance.

Conclusion : There are a couple of paths we could choose. Those examples show one, that I do like. Without polljumping, I think we should go for a Pokemon that looks offensive at first glance ("at first glance" mostly means "stats-wise" but shhhh), but something makes so it's just better to use it with utility (aka capacity to survive and good utility options). Said differently, an offensive mon with which a purely offensive approach would be suboptimal.

 

[Voltage]

Getting my two-cents in officially before this thread locks, wew lad, let's go. I've been commenting a lot in the discord about how I envision this project moving forward, but I think it's worth summarizing everything here at least.

• How important is defensive utility for a Pokemon whose primary function is to support its teammates?

There's part of me that really fears that this CAP might just turn into a weird wallbreaker or specialized pivot depending on how far or how short we go on the defensive utility on this mon. My ultimate vision of this is a mon that we can actually put onto this spectrum in a couple different ways. We don't want to pigeonhole ourselves in this problem. We have to adhere to the idea of "Offensive Support" in thihs concept, so regardless of whether or not we give CAP27 a more defensive utility oriented set, we will always need to keep the offensive prospects in mind. Whether or not the more offensive set becomes the favored set is something I guess we'll see further down the line.

That being said, defensive utility is quite important for a support mon as a whole. From the discord discussion, this mon is going to need to be a mon that can have points where it can absolutely switch in without fear but will also need to switch out at an appropriate time. While this does sound quite like a pivot, the switches can be defined as two specific cases: forced and unforced. Forced switches are pretty obvious, a mon comes in on CAP27 and it forces CAP27 to switch with its teammates (switching in a direct counter for example), while unforced switches are when CAP27 chooses to switch out (U-turn, wishpassing etc.) . Ideally in this case, CAP27 should be able to support its team in both cases ideally transforming forced switches into psuedo-unforced switches, and if that means that CAP27 needs more defensive utility to do so, then we have to do so.

Let me just give a brief example to explain what I mean: you have a Clefable with Wish and no fire coverage that you brought in on a choice locked Hydreigon using Draco Meteor. Your opponent also has a banded Aegislash that they will likely switch in on your Clef on the following turn. Instead of having Aegislash essentially check you, you can instead click Wish on the following turn so that when Aegislash comes into check you, you're essentially turning their attempt to force you out into a situation where you were planning to switch in the first place.

Of course, Wishpassing isn't even just the first defensive utility that might come to might, others might consider bulky stats or a good typing, but in general it might be best to have at least some defensive utility options in general, regardless if they're actively or passively used.

• Without Polljumping, how can we achieve defensive utility on a more offensive Pokemon?

To attain these defensive utility capabilities, we need to be very conscientious of how we determine our typing, movepool and statistics. I will refrain from any explicit suggestions to avoid polljumping, but instead will give a brief description of the way I would like to see this going down. To me, this mon is made or broken by its movepool and stats and that we'll need to likely be a little more liberal with these two options to make sure CAP27 succeeds. Therefore, I feel that with defensive utility we need to pick a typing that maybe lacks a little defensive capabilities, or at least a typing that's easily exploitable. Again, I'm not going to give explicit suggestions for this typing (see Discord for my not-so-shitposting on my favorite typing atm), but I will say that this typing needs to be easily exploitable so thhat we can prioritize movepool and stats.

By prioritizing movepool and stats we can give CAP27 as mouch offensive or defensive capabilities as we want. Sure, there will be some restrictions based on typing, but in general we can give ourselves some more status-y moves based on the typing that we assign CAP27. Furthermore, the stats on CAP27 should also allow CAP27 to switch into at least some common attacking moves, but also, once again, force it out in other situations (creating those forced switches I referenced earlier). But in general, the defensive utility from this CAP, in my opinion, will come from the moves and stats we give CAP27, not the typing.

• And now that we have a grasp on what we define as a support Pokemon - How offensive does CAP27 need to be in order to actualise our concept? Do we consider the above examples of Tornadus-T, Heatran, TankChomp, Cyrogonal etc as good examples of the balance between offense and support that we should aim for?

The typing however, will be crucial when we consider the offensive capabilities of CAP27. Like Tornadus-T and Hurricane, CAP27 is going to need some reliable and strong STAB move in order to threaten a good portion of the metagame. Like Torn-T being so good in the presence of so many bulky grass types in ORAS OU and SM OU, our CAP should be able to take advantage of a lot of common types with its STABs and its moves. Therefore, not only are our typing and movepool coupled in the defensive utility aspect, they're also incredibly linked in the offensive utility portion as well. There needs to be some kind of effective STAB option for CAP27 to put offensive presence and pressure into the game.

But I'd also like to once again to return to the idea of forced switches and how that limits CAP27's offensive presence. Like in the defensive sense, CAP27, needs to have things that ouright force it out, lest we become something like a CAP version of Clefable with all of its coverage options (because believe me, I've had people saying my concept is just CAP Clefable since I submitted it). There needs to be a gap in CAP27's coverage that forces it to switch out over the course of the battle.

I think that Heatran in SM OU is a place that we want to avoid. This problem isn't as prevalent this gen due to the fact that Z-Moves aren't a thing here, but consider. Bulky Water types were usually a pretty consistent check for Tran on most teams in Gens 4, 5, and 6. However, in Gen 7 , Heatran became even better beecause now it got a reliable way to beat previous checks with Bloom Doom. Is this a problem now? No. Not really. Will it be a problem? Probably not. But Heatran even having Solarbeam still does present the possibility of it being able to beat things it normally shouldn't be able to. CAP27 should not have the opportunity to beat any of its checks, even through cheesing (though isn't that just the definition of a counter?). But essentially my point is with Heatran, CAP27 should not have specific coverage options, that by not having, prevent it from having too much offensive coverage therein making it more of a sweeper etc.

That's my thoughts. Glad I could get them all in here. I'm sure a lot of this has been said, but this is how I'd envision this project happening. See you all in the Discord.

TL;DR - Exploitable typing that lets us have more freedom with moves and stats :]

 

[quziel]

So, realized this kinda post was certainly alluded to, but don't think it was made explicitly.

I'd like to ask and answer the question "Why are you putting an offensive support Pokemon on your team". This is going to mainly be a sorta archetype kinda thing exploring why you're actually dedicating a slot to it.

1) "I need Healing"

This is probably the simplest example, but, well, there's a lot of wallbreakers/sweepers that are dramatically improved by Wish or Healing Wish support. Consider NP LO Hydreigon in like last month's SwSh OU, and how it was paired with Clefable very often because Wish and Aromatherapy suddenly meant that it could just come in on Toxapex for the entirety of a game. Another example is Scarf Healing Wish Mesprit from ORAS NU (I liked that meta so examples come from there for me) combined with SD Samurott, where you use Samurott to set up and weaken its checks first time around, and then win the game after being healed.

2) "Last Ditch Anti-Sweep"

This is far more specific, and really manifests itself on basically Prankster users and like literally Sash-Counter Alakazam, and other random Sash mons. Basically, offensive teams are particularly susceptible to speed boosting sweepers and specific Scarfers (see the one person still using Scarf Dracovish) because well, they don't have bulky stuff to sponge hits as well as balance. These mons exist on those teams then to provide a last-ditch attempt to prevent those sweepers, and luckily, being only one moveslot, this does not, in any way, preclude dedicating the rest of your set to offensive means. Prankster Twave Thundurus-I doesn't really feel the loss of one slot to T-Wave that much when it still has Tbolt/HP Ice/Focus Blast to force out all but the bulkiest walls. Its fairly loose, but pokemon such as ORAS era Talonflame and ORAS era Breloom also fit here, being able to threaten out frail mons and provide utility thanks to status at the same time.

3) "5 Tons of utility in an Offensive Bucket"

This is more of a kinda catch-all for the remaining examples above, but stuff like Torn-T, where you literally need Hurricane to threaten stuff, and then with the rest of the set you provide Defog Support, Knock bulky Steels for teammates, and can pivot with U-turn and Regenerator fits in this archetype. This kinda thing can def overlap with the other two examples, and is the most likely of these three archetypes to carry some sort of hazard focused move (Fog Torn-T, Scarf Hwish Fog Latias, Pursuit+SR M-TTar). A lot of what makes this archetype work is that you can accomplish all you need to with only one or two Offensive moves, which means that you can dedicate the rest of your set to just spamming utility. DPP and BW era Tinkerbell also fits here (Leaf Storm / Thunder Wave / HP Fire / Recover LO Celebi), packing invaluable defensive resists, a super strong stab, T-Wave to cripple incoming dragon types (mons it can't really touch otherwise), and good longevity thanks to 100/100/100 bulk, natural cure, and again its resists.

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I don't want to imply that these archetypes cannot overlap; see NU's Twave Hwish Mega Audino which arguably does all three thanks to its bulk letting it take one hit from basically anything and T-Wave Back, Heal with Healing Wish, and packing the ability to lure checks for sweepers. I disagree with the above assertion that we don't want to be able to lure checks; I think that can absolutely help the concept out provided that we have some sacrifice for it (eg Power Herb, needing a resist berry to take an attack and threaten back), and that we aren't just gonna end up spamming a 3-4 attacks set. There's a metric ton of freedom in this concept, and going forward I just think we have to worry about going for a fully offensive set (see Hydreigon which only really attacks stuff despite having Twave and Defog), or a fully defensive set (see Wish Clefable which only really plays defense despite having a stupid wide offensive movepool).

Edit:

I just want to note that a common thread through a lot of these mons is, especially the third category, the ability to cripple would-be checks with utility options rather than coverage attacks. Bulky Steels such as Magearna and Celesteela both love coming in on Tornadus-Therian, but both are incredibly reliant on their items, meaning that Torn can cripple them about as effectively with Knock Off as it can with Heat Wave, with the added benefit of supporting its team. In BW and DPP dragon types loved to come in on Celebi's Leaf Storm, but were universally vulnerable to Thunder Wave. In both cases you run a utility move to cripple your checks when you otherwise couldn't, while also being able to support your team.

 

[Agile Turtle]

I don't think there is really much more to say in this thread. So I'll just say I do think we should really take a look at what makes offensive pokemon sacrifice offensive power for support options, and what makes support pokemon take on more offensive roles, and try to find a balance with CAP27, and let that be a guiding force in the decisions we make in the process.

Take a look at pokemon like cinderace, a fast and powerful pokemon with a very strong STAB and coverage options. It has to lose out on one of those coverage options to carry court change, and also lose a life orb/choice item to carry heavy-duty boots. But the way court change can compress both hazard setting and removing into a single move is very useful. Take a look at pokemon like clefable, mainly used for support, but can go offensive with sets using Life Orb and Magic Guard, or Calm Mind and Unaware.

There are many pokemon we can look at mentioned in this thread already and I think they serve as great reference points for us.

 

[snake]

How important is defensive utility for a Pokemon whose primary function is to support its teammates?

Defensive utility can be quite important when supporting an offensive core. For offensive cores, you generally focus on having 2 or 3 Pokemon that break down the opposition as a primary focus, then make sure that they have some sort of defensive synergy as a secondary focus. For example, Choice Specs Aegislash and Nasty Plot Hydreigon focus primarily on beating up each other's checks, but they work well together because Aegislash can switch into Fairy- and Dragon-type attacks, while Hydreigon can switch into Ground- and Ghost-type attacks.

In any metagame, though, there are some offensive juggernauts that offensive teams will struggle with because usually you just have to out-bulk those Pokemon's moves. I'm thinking Pokemon like Hydreigon, Kyurem-B, Life Orb Jumbao, Syclant - there just aren't that many offensive checks to these Pokemon. So, if one part of a Pokemon's defensive utility has to do with how well it fits on a team based on covering weaknesses, making a Pokemon that can switch decently into even just one or more of these offensive juggernauts would be fantastic for offensive teams.

Without Polljumping, how can we achieve defensive utility on a more offensive Pokemon?

As stated earlier, typing is massive towards achieving defensive utility. CAP27's typing should give it the ability to switch into a high-profile threat who currently doesn't have many offensive checks and then still have good STAB options and resistances to pull off its utility.

Also, many abilities exist that allow CAP27 to provide support to its teammates just by switching in. I elaborated more on this in my previous post, but I think it's worth reiterating here. These abilities, while I can't name them here due to polljumping, will be critical to consider during the ability stage. So far this gen, offensive Life Orb Jumbao and offensive Life Orb Clefable just don't run Wish, and defensive Clefable runs Heal Bell. Honestly, I can't think of any offensive Wish users or Heal Bell users that aren't Fairium Z Jumbao (we don't have Z-moves) or Choice Scarf Xerneas (please let's not create Xerneas). If I'm missing any, I'd love to see some examples.

However, there are abilities that can replicate the effects of Wish, Heal Bell, and other very defensive tactics in an offensive way and allow CAP27 to capture defensive utility without losing momentum, which is critical for CAP27 as an offensive Pokemon also.

There are a few ways to prevent the Pokemon from losing too much momentum. I'm really interested in the following:

• The Support Pokemon's ability has effects that linger after it switches out.

These abilities will be critical to analyze because the support isn't necessarily conditional on the support Pokemon staying in AND they are passive, meaning that the support Pokemon can provide support without a) wasting a moveslot and b) using the move in battle. The best examples are the terrain surge abilities and weather-setting abilities because those change the field condition. Some other ones can lower the opponent's stats or change their abilities. There aren't a whole lot of these, but we should consider them heavily.

How offensive does CAP27 need to be in order to actualise our concept? Do we consider the above examples of Tornadus-T, Heatran, TankChomp, Cyrogonal etc as good examples of the balance between offense and support that we should aim for?

Basically, CAP27 needs two things: carefully used moveslots and decent offenses. For these examples, Tornadus-T runs Hurricane and a second move like Focus Blast or Heat Wave. In Tornadus-T's case, Knock Off and U-turn don't count because they're used for their utility not damage. Heatran ran Magma Storm and Earth Power and then Toxic and Stealth Rock (sometimes Flash Cannon over one of these). TankChomp ran Earthquake primarily for damage, then Fire Blast to pick off a few other things, and then Toxic and Stealth Rock. Cryogonal ran Freeze-Dry and Hidden Power Fire. Bottom line, these examples show that in terms of moveslots, these utility Pokemon are able to run about two offensive attacks to really get their offenses going and then two utility-based moves for their team support. Things get murky when you consider moves like STAB Knock Off off of high Attack - that's an offensive move that also carries utility. However, these examples do show that, in general, we really want a Pokemon that can stop wanting more offensive moves after completing two-move coverage.

Moreover, these Pokemon show that they enjoy above average offenses relative to the metagame they're in, but not top-tier offenses. Gen 7 Tornadus-T and Heatran aren't the special breakers that Hoopa-U and Mega Alakazam are, but 110 and 130 SpA aren't slouching. The same goes for Garchomp's 130 Base Attack - not the highest in the metagame, but still pretty up there. Cryogonal's base 95 isn't slouching in Gen 7 PU - again not the best, but still good. Therefore CAP27 will need good, but not fantastic, offensive stats to back up its chosen moves to be sufficiently offensive.

I do think all four of these Pokemon are good examples to consider for this project. Tornadus-T and Cryogonal are on the more support, less offense side, while Heatran and TankChomp are on the more offensive, less support side. Let's try to hit somewhere on this interval of offensive support styles :)

 

[Jho]

This has been an excellent week of discussion on our concept, thank you everyone for contributing - I feel like we've really made strides into understanding how we can go about actualising an Offensive Team Support CAP. Before I send you off to Wulf for the typing stage, I would like to summarise what I feel the key points have been throughout this discussion, so we can easily refer back to them in later stages.

What is a support Pokemon? - The primary function of a support Pokemon should be to provide its teammates with Utility options such as Knock Off, Hazard Removal, Status, Hazards, Recovery, Set-up opportunities, or momentum in the form of free switches. In order to ensure that CAP27 maintains its role as a support, the ability to provide a team with some form(es) of utility should be at the forefront.

Defensive Utility - the utility a Pokemon provides by virtue of its defensive prowess (be it stats, abilities, or typing) is very important. Bar a few examples and suicide leads, defenssive utility is a key factor in every support Pokemon brought up. As we have identified that CAP27 needs to be be able to come in often in order to support its teammates, the aforementioned stages will be key in ensuring we can hit this mark.

Offenses - In order to fulfil the "offensive" portion of our concept, CAP27 must not become a typical wall or be overtly passive. However, striking a balance is also important as too offensive can make it so that CAP27 does not fulfil its role as a support Pokemon. Going forward, it will be important to consider how examples such as Tornadus-T, SpDf Heatran, and TankChomp etc fulfil this. There are many more examples within this thread to look over and take notes from as well.

Why use an offensive Support? - quziel's post posses a question that I think should be considered at each stage going forward. Why would I put CAP27 on my team? Considering what it is actually going to do in the meta, and the sort of teams it will fit into will give us a greater insight into the various ways we can take this extremely versatile concept. I hope to see people considering this in discussions going forward

And with that, Concept Assessment has closed and Wulfanator72 will take it away with the Typing Stage!