CAP 27 - Part 3 - Threats Discussion

[Voltage]

Pressure time! I think the mons we choose here are crucial since we need this mon to force switches to support the team, and if it can do that well, then it's well on its way to being a success.

I think it goes without debate that every steel type in the metagame should be at least slightly threatened. This includes things like Equilibra and Excadrill who are probably going to be able to do a good chunk of damage to us back. The way I see it is that (without polljumping) can probably give CAP27 a way to put pressure onto these mons. Equilibra should be pretty spooked in general given it's slow, but Excadrill, may be a bit harder to deal with and will likely become a stats issue, so I'll just leave it there. Otherwise, I think things like Jirachi, Bisharp, Aegslash, Ferro, and Cawm all should fear us switching in. I think the only Steel type that SHOULD be able to live a hit from us is Naviathan per a typing basis.

Aside from Steel Types, I think other dragons should also likely fear us, barring maybe Dragapult (again on a speed basis). We should be able to threaten Hydreigon, Cyclohm, Dracozolt, Kyurem, Pajantom, and probably Kommo-O solely based on our STABs alone. Dracovish might be a bit of a grey area, since we would probably care about the set, but I'm in the camp where Dracovish is probably afraid of CAP27, but not overly so depending on how much damage CAP27 has taken. Basically with most of these Dragon types, it really comes down to who will be hitting first IMO, and from that it basically implies that these Dragons aren't going to be outright switch-ins the way things specific water types will.

Aside from those, it's pretty clear most Grass Types aren't going to want to stay in when we're on the field. The elephant in the room is Jumbao, as I think that while it gets Fairy stab to maybe put us in a little tricky spot, CAP27 should be able with with its Fire STAB. There's also Pyroak which could maybe be annoying to actually take down, but I can't really seeing Pyroak beating this mon outside of Toxic (which idr if it gets these days). Also similarly to Grass types, I think the lone good bug (aside from Clant, we'll cover that guy later), Aurumoth should be pretty threatened by this thing due to a lack of moves.

Now for mons on a case-by-case basis:

• 
  - I tink this is one of those mons taht we should be able to put a lot of pressure on. We resist one of its STABs and I think that with fears of Toxic or poisoning, it's important for us to at least put a lot of pressure onto this guy. Do we let CAP27 1v1 Mollux? Hard to say, I'm in the camp that we do, but I'm also very flexible with my thinking here
• 
  - We should be able to put pressure on this thing from our fire STAB imo. I think that Clef at +1/2 should definitely be something CAP27 fears though.
• 
  - Banded EQ is going to give us problems. No doubt that we can beat this just based on our STABs, but this is one I think we have to discuss now since it'll absolutely influence how we do stats. I think CAP27 should be able to beat it tbh, but that's just me.
• 
  - lol this thing should beat us most of the time, idk why people think we should be able to beat this thing.
• 
  - Yeah, we should be able to do well against this guy. Resisting its lone STAB? Yes please.

Otherwise, that's all for me at the moment.

 

[MrPanda]

I am a little incredulous at CAP27's ability to check Clef. While Clef can cripple it in some forms, there is not much he can do in return for that. Defensive sets by Clef generally split a utility slot between Thunder Wave and Knock Off, both of which can impair the effectiveness of CAP27 (at the moment, I believe Knock is at a higher level than TWave). Clef's offensive sets, even though they don't have that versatility, compensate for it with considerable firepower. CM Clef - although not having great immediate power - relies on his resilience to accumulate CM setups and open holes in the opposing team, while LO variants bet on raw damage to break opponent pokémon. CAP27 can take any coverage option that Clef wants to use (except for Psyshock), but it takes considerable damage from Moonblast STAB. Defensively, it can't do much in return, since Magic Guard doesn't really care about status conditions. Additionally, (depending on your stats) CAP27 may end up having to choose between offensive or defensive power, in order to deal with offensive variants of Clef. Still, I see three ways we can remedy matchup with Clef: paralysis, coverage moves, and stat debuff moves. Personally, I think that the third would be the most viable option since it is totally pro-concept, paralysis is a less solid option but still exploitable, while the coverage option hurts our concept in a way, as it can open the possibility of a band set or a 3 attacks + anything set. Because of this, I believe Clef would fit the Pressure category better than Switch-in. Finally, some calculations about Clef's power and the possible threat that he may exert on CAP27:

Calcs

vs LO Clef variant

Defensive
252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Centiskorch (Dragon/Fire): 196-231 (57.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Centiskorch (Dragon/Fire): 152-179 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Centiskorch (Dragon/Fire): 152-179 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Offensive

Physical
252+ Atk Centiskorch Fire Lash vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 171-202 (48.7 - 57.5%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed 2HKO considering the defense drop)
0 Atk Centiskorch Fire Lash vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 127-150 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (there's a chance to 2HKO, but I didn't calculate it)

Special
0 SpA Centiskorch Mystical Fire vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 100-118 (28.4 - 33.6%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO (115 base SpA)
252+ SpA Centiskorch Mystical Fire vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 135-160 (38.4 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (115 base SpA)

vs CM Clef

Defensive

Neutral
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Centiskorch (Dragon/Fire): 108-127 (31.6 - 37.2%) -- 83.8% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Centiskorch (Dragon/Fire): 76-90 (22.2 - 26.3%) -- 10.6% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Centiskorch (Dragon/Fire): 76-90 (18.8 - 22.2%) -- possible 5HKO

+1 SpA
+1 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Centiskorch (Dragon/Fire): 160-190 (46.9 - 55.7%) -- 77% chance to 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Centiskorch (Dragon/Fire): 114-135 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Centiskorch (Dragon/Fire): 114-135 (28.2 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

+2 SpA
+2 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Centiskorch (Dragon/Fire): 213-252 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Centiskorch (Dragon/Fire): 151-178 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Centiskorch (Dragon/Fire): 151-178 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Offensive

Physical
0 Atk Centiskorch Fire Lash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 85-102 (21.5 - 25.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (almost 3HKO after defense drops)
252+ Atk Centiskorch Fire Lash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 117-138 (29.6 - 35%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (it's a raw 3HKO)

Special

Neutral
0 SpA Centiskorch Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 100-118 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (115 base SpA)
252+ SpA Centiskorch Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 135-159 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- 40.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (115 base SpA)

+1 SpD
0 SpA Centiskorch Mystical Fire vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 67-79 (17 - 20%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery (115 base SpA)
252+ SpA Centiskorch Mystical Fire vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 90-106 (22.8 - 26.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (115 base SpA)

+2 SpD
0 SpA Centiskorch Mystical Fire vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 51-60 (12.9 - 15.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever (115 base SpA)
252+ SpA Centiskorch Mystical Fire vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 67-81 (17 - 20.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery (115 base SpA)

Mollux, despite being a very similar case, is less urgent and worrying. Its firepower is relatively lesser than that of Clef and can be neutralized with relative ease
4 SpA Mollux Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Centiskorch: 135-159 (39.5 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
so the real problem here is the possibility of Mollux poisoning CAP27. Still, this is something that we can circumvent in later stages, so I will not go into more depth on the subject this too can be considered poll jumping, so that is it. As for the ability of 27 to deal with Mollux, I believe that Knock Off is the best way to put pressure on him without providing him with Ground coverage (which some have already opposed) and without hurting the concept. Finally, I believe that Mollux is worthy of a quiet place on the switch-ins list.

In the case of Zeraora, our true problem is Knock Off which can be dealt in later stages too. Out of this, I really don't have much to talk about it. Briefly, it has a place on the switch-ins list and definitely should be kept there.

 

[Karoshi]

I took a look at the SS CAP Viability Rankings to take a look at the S Rank through A- Rank Pokemon.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-cap-viability-rankings.3658514/#post-8399285

Clefable - We resist her STAB, but she is immune to one of ours. We probably won't appreciate TWave but we should beat her in a one on one.
Corviknight - Should beat based solely on typing.
Mollux - x4 Resist its Fire STAB. I feel like we could pressure it.
Aegislash - Should beat based solely on typing.
Dragapult - Pokemon we both threaten and are threatened by. Depends our Stats.
Equilibra - Pokemon we both threaten and are threatened by. Depends our Stats.
Hydreigon - Pokemon we both threaten and are threatened by. Depends our Stats.
Kyurem - Pokemon we both threaten and are threatened by. Depends our Stats.
Mandibuzz - Depends our Stats. Neither has Advantage based on Typing
Rotom-Heat - We resist both STABs so we'd probably counter offensive sets.
Seismitoad - It resists our Fire STAB and we are weak to EQ.
Syclant - Should beat based solely on typing. Need to watch out for EQ
Terrakion - Resists our fire STAB and threatens back with Rock STAB.
Tomohawk - Depends our Stats. Neither has Advantage based on Typing
Zeraora - Depends our Stats. Neither has Advantage based on Typing
Arghonaut - Depends our Stats. Neither has Advantage based on Typing
Colossoil - We are weak to EQ and Colossoil hits like a truck; it will probably end up as one of our checks.
Conkeldurr - Depends our Stats. Neither has Advantage based on Typing
Excadrill - Pokemon we both threaten and are threatened by. Depends our Stats.
Ferrothorn - Should beat based solely on typing.
Jumbao - One of the more interesting cases. We both resist one of each other's STABs but are weak to the other. Depends on our stats and which one predicts better.
Toxapex - It resists Fire STAB and CAP27 hits neutrally with its own STAB. Since CAP27 is focusing on utility and not Wallbreaking/Set Up, It will probably check us.

Out of most of the top threats, we have a weird 50/50 situation where we both threaten and are threaten by. Only 4/22 (Seismitoad, Terrakion, Colossoil, Toxapex) seem to have a clear advantage against CAP27 on Typing alone. That said of the S through A- Rank Pokemon we only handily counter 4/22 (Corviknight, Aegislash, Rotom-Heat, Ferrothorn). It isn't until you get to B rank and lower does it get more "filled out" in clear cut counter/countered by. I am looking more at Typing alone and less about individual sets, but that said I doubt CAP27 will have much staying power despite all its resistances.

https://www.smogon.com/stats/2020-02/gen8cap-1760.txt
To further illustrate my point/thought process, just look at the top 5 used Pokemon. 3/5 (Jumbao, Equilibra and Pajantom) all threaten CAP 27 but are also weak in return. I feel like the Switch in/ Pressure/ Checks and Counters list is going to heavily depend on our Stats/Abilities even more then most other CAP from past experiences. We should probably find the one or two of those 50/50s we WANT to counter and one or two more we WANT to lose too for future steps. Either way we are just going to be have a long list of Pokemon we can't switch in on who also don't want to switch in on us under fear of a hard read.

Here are my thoughts on the current threat discussion, my opinion is biased so take with a grain of salt.

• Going specifically by typing, what Pokemon found in the CAP metagame will be able to comfortably give this project trouble?
  The large amount of 50/50 matchups in the tier.
  [*]What Pokemon will be major threats to this project right off the bat?
  
  [*]What Pokemon have the potential to become counters?
  
  [*]Will the concept succeed with this list of threats?
  I believe so; it will just have a hard time switching in. When it is in the same Pokemon will not want to come in an can provide offensive utility.
  [*]Is this list of threats acceptable for the project?
  We may want to decide we want to beat some of the aforementioned Pokemon otherwise we may have a hard time coming in to do our job.
  [*]What Pokemon will be threatened by the CAP based off of typing?
  is the most notable, are the more interesting
  [*]Are these Pokemon targets that we want CAP to hit?
  Yes for , we may want to make some of the 50/50 be a decisive counter vice versa.
  [*]Will these targets be "unavoidable" to threaten based solely on the typing?
  To some degree I doubt we can tailor the check/counter matchup too hard due to the nature of our typing.
  [*]What must be done in order to make these threats "wanted counters" or these threats be eliminated from counter discussion?
  Find out which of these are the most important to beat. We want to make sure we have the ability to come in to assist our team.
  [*]Are there any Pokemon that we want to completely counter?
  , doing so means we have beat one of the most used and viable Pokemon. Equilibra as well because it is annoying and unfun to pay against

 

[Amamama]

Pressure: This is the part that I wish to look at a little differently due to our concept. On top of pressured Pokemon being scared of switching directly into an attack, this section should also contain Pokemon that are scared to switch in directly in fear of being crippled in some way. This list will be pretty important too as we need to ensure we have a good amount of both offensive and defensive counterplay.

I think going back to quziels framework they introduced in the typing discussion, would probably be a good way to define mons, that might not be afraid of our immediate attacks but rather the Utility we might provide.
As moves and abilities right now aren’t a factor we’ll have to check all conditions that we could affect these Pokémon with.


This was brought up in switch ins but unless we got a pretty tailored combination of offenses and defenses I think it is not safe enough for us to come in and do what we want, as it is a neutral matchup STAB wise and has the ability to perform utility in our face.
Considering utility, Clef doesn’t really care about status aside of Parahax or any hazard. It only really worries about stat debuffing and slightly less about item removal (trick might be an option that really limits its presence).
Taunt torment could be another utility option to break clefs stride. (Sorry if polljumping, I just didn’t know how to include these without doing so).

Pressure depends on stats an du movepool


again a mon that we don’t beat on typing alone I think (I don’t know how often it has sludge bomb).
We don’t resist Poison stab and Mollux is not weak to our Stabs either.
Also it threatens to poison us.
So aside from coverage or raw power we still might have to rely on utility.
Mollux is immune to burn and poison though (abilities could remedy that) and cares not too much about Parahax.
Item Manipulation can cripple it and taunt torment could take away its Recovery.
So Mollux might after all be able to switch into us aside from trick (Pressure depends on stats)


Mandibuzz Is rather passiv although its foul play could hurt depending on stats (does it still get/run Knock off?)
And a slow Uturn might bring in a dangerous answer to Cap27. Also sometimes it uses Toxic which might cripple us.
On the other hand its great bulk means we would have to be high powered to break through it. Nonetheless we could shut down it’s utility and use its passivity to help out our team. It only really fears toxic on the switch so it should be able to come in on us. Hence I don’t believe we can reliably pressure Mandi.


I think ideally this would belong to checks and counters, but its weak bulk, low power output and no access to recovery might give us the opportunity to scare it away alone on the threat of our dragon stab. We might not want to stay in after hitting it on the switch or come in on it just so...
Also crippling it with item removal and poison or burn is easy and might pave way for our Teammates.


This is ideally one of our best counters. BUT it doesn’t like to switch in on Special dragon stabs (physical might be ok) and although it comes in on fire attacks easily it would hate being burned or paralyzed.
On the other hand a predicted knock off would make it even more scary.
This could be one of the pressure relations where Terrakion might not be scared of some of Caps attacks but afraid to switch into one of its utility options.
although id rather have it as a clean counter.


Again a neutral matchup.
Tomo definitely has the ability to hit us hard and its recovery makes it harder for us to break through it. But the low accuracy of its stabs and loosing toxic will make that harder for tomo. On the other hand our stabs are mostly more reliable and even pack the chance of burn. Plus we can cripple tomo with all status and stat debuffs. As long as we outrun its recovery Tomo is no clean answer to us. But we need to be faster than its recovery to force it out.
I don’t know how much we really pressure it or it us but the slowness of the interaction might help us aid our team.


Resists one of our stabs and has the bulk to tank several hits from the other.It can hit us hard with EQ and use the turns we’d need to break it to perform its utility and recover back.
Loosing leftovers or being burned/poisoned is not ideal for it and Toxic really annoys it.
Other than that this is no candidate for pressure.


Only might dislike knock off on the switch in other than that it doesn’t really care about any utility we can throw at it and scares us out with its stabs.
Only maybe Uturn could hurt it as its weak to it and faster threats could take advantage of the momentum.


Similar to Collosoil although a heavy hit on the special side will hurt it more which might put it into pressure depending on stats.


Resists us similar to Mollux doesn’t care about status if toxic is no option.
Doesn’t really do much but it does it so well that it’s one of the most used Pokémon ever. So we might not want to be in for whatever it does.
So while there is one interesting avenue to hurt Pex outside of strong coverage, It most probably is a check and does not belong to pressure.


doesn’t like loosing leftovers hates toxic and trick but should be able to tank hits and force us out with EQ although a burn might make it slower at that


It has low bulk and Especially paralysis will hurt it. So mispredicting a dragon move and being hit by eg Twave or a strong fire stab will make it think twice if it wants to come in.
If caps defenses are high enough it doesn’t pack enough punch to force us out immediately but is strong and fast enough to deny us coming in easily.
This might be a target for attacking or utility pressure depending on stats.


It’s bulk should be ok to tank some hits and it Doesn’t care about status but being weak to knock off and uturn might make it consider coming in on Cap27
This makes it a Possible option to pressure it with some utility moves.



forces us out, but it will be hard pressed to come in on any strong dragon move and paralysis will really hurt it.
This belongs in Pressure without and even more with utility.


We’d need really high defenses to live a knock off into suckerpunch so coming in is not an option and if we don’t OHKO it we might even be unable to force it out. But it still doesn’t want to come into our fire stabs.
Utility options aren’t as interesting as we already threaten it with Fire Stab
This belongs in pressure.


This will be able to come in on most physical attacks we can throw at it but might take considerable damage of our special attacks. It is immune to poison and paralysis. Burn can reduce its staying power but doesn’t limit its attacking stats.
It’s earthpower might not come with much punch but it hurts us and will force us out if we’re not really strong on either of the special sides.


Because of its better bulk and recovery it has an easier time coming in than the toad and it forces us out with EP.
Toxic will cripple it but other than that it should be in checks and counters.


it is to nimble to come into any strong move and doesn’t force us out right away. But it is strong enough to do considerable damage.
It will hate paralysis and knock off on the switch.
hence its Both in attacking and utility pressure.


It can come in on a fire attack and doesn’t care about a possible burn from it. It also has some considerable punch and speed so it might be able to force us out if we don’t hit as hard with our dragon stabs.
I don’t think it will want to come in on a dragon type attack for the most part and it could be heavily crippled by paralysis.
Still with the right prediction and if speed is in its favor it puts more pressure on us than we on it.


Is neutral to our stabs and kills us with EQ. The only things we might be able to pressure it with are really high attacking stats and burn
I think this will be a counter.


Might not want to be hit by a strong special fire attack or knock of. It might even dislike paralysis a bit. But it can switch in on dragon attacks Set up and start killing things.
So this could even be a counter.


It has some staying power and access to EP so while we technically have a huge type advantage. It might still be hard to pressure it hard enough to not want to come in and even force us out. On the other hand we might be able to abuse its low offensive presence to aid our time otherwise.
Not sure about this. I think it’s maybe a check.


For a physical attacker it isn’t as much of a problem as Clef although it has more initial power it’s also susceptible to toxic and burn.
It’s strong special defense and high attacking power might still be a problem for us.
I think this depends heavily on stats.
But for the most part I think this is a Pressure relation.

Tyranitar Should be one of our best counters since it’s considerable bulk and a resistance might make it easy to come in and Rock stab Stone edge probably kills us so it forces us out.
That said especially a burn will make it harder to kill us and to threaten other mons.

Interestingly enough I think the Rock types that on paper should threaten us are the most likely to be hurt by our possible utility, which makes them fall in the desired utility pressure category. also slower mons that might come in on Cap27 could maybe be moved to pressure if we go for certain abilities or utility moves like trick, taunt or Uturn.

I think there can be many variants of what we hurt with our utility and what depending on stats and moves leading to a certain unpredictability for what we pressure or not.

 

[snake]

Pokemon that CAP27 should definitely pressure are Steel-types, most Dragon-types, Grass-types, and certain bulkier mons.

The Steel-types of the metagame, provided that CAP27 outspeeds them, such as Equilibra, Excadrill and Aegislash, are all threatened by any well powered Fire-type STAB that CAP27 can throw at them. Of course, Equilibra and Excadrill have Ground-type STAB to hit CAP27 super effectively, and Aegislash is going to hit hard with its STAB Ghost-type moves, which means they aren't the easiest to switch into. I'm excluding Ferrothorn and Corviknight from this list since they're both switch-ins, but obviously they're pressured by Fire-type STAB too.

Dragon-types are interesting for two reasons: a) Dragon-types can't really switch into each other safely and b) the faster of two Dragon-types on the field will usually force out the other. For this reason, I think we should force out these Dragon-types: non-Choice Scarf Dracovish, Kyurem, non-Choice Scarf Hydreigon, unboosted Kommo-O, Pajantom, and Cyclohm. CAP27 doesn't have many hard switch-ins and will really rely on its pressure matchups to force switches to get free turns. If it doesn't threaten these Dragon-types by outspeeding with its own Dragon-type STAB, it's going to miss out on a lot of opportunities to get useful plays in. This doesn't mean that it has to OHKO all variants of these Pokemon - for example, defensive Kommo-O, defensive Cyclohm, or the naturally bulky Kyurem may be able to tank a hit if really healthy - but acknowledging that CAP27 should pressure the aforementioned Pokemon is, in my opinion, vital for this project. Dragapult's blazing Speed tier of 142 makes it hard to outspeed, so it's probably going to force out CAP27 most of the time, but it definitely should be scared of switching in.

Grass-types like Jumbao, Venusaur, and Necturna should also be pressured by CAP27. Of course, Jumbao has Moonblast and may be able to tank a hit if healthy, but CAP27 should be able to prevent Jumbao from switching in and, if CAP27 outspeeds, force Jumbao out with Fire-type STAB otherwise. Venusaur will force out CAP27 with Earth Power if sun is up of course, but it should have a hard time switching in directly. Also, if sun is down, CAP27 could potentially force out Venusaur instead of taking an Earth Power. Finally, Necturna should have a hard time staying in on CAP27 to set up Shell Smash, while CAP27 could potentially stomach at +2 Shadow Claw if healthy. Otherwise, if Shell Smash Necturna gets a boost, a sufficiently weakened CAP27 will realistically lose.

I think we should pressure bulky Pokemon like Clefable, Sylveon, and Mollux. We'll have to be careful that we don't invalidate counters, but these Pokemon should definitely not want to stay in on CAP27. For example, I think it'd be good if Clefable and Sylveon can't freely set up Calm Mind against it and if Mollux is punished somehow for staying in. I can think of multiple viable ways to do this with both attacking moves and utility moves, so I think we're pretty free to choose a direction with these matchups in particular.

To summarize, CAP27 should pressure (not an exhaustive list):

These Steel-types:


These Dragon-types:
| (can't switch in easily but very hard to outspeed)

These Grass-types:


These bulky Pokemon:


Remember that a lot of CAP27's switch-in opportunities are kind of shaky to begin with the true "switch-ins" having annoying moves like Knock Off on Ferrothorn and Zeraora and Toxic on Rotom-H and with the above pressure matchups just not letting in CAP27 for free at all. Thus, CAP27 should be able to exert a lot of influence once it gets onto the field but may struggle to get into the field just a little bit.

 

[Jho]

Yo people just a little update post to let everybody know what I plan on doing - I want to see a little more discussion on the Pressure list but am also wary of timing so for the next 48 hours I would like us to post any final thoughts on the Pressure list, as well as put together our thoughts on our Checks and Counters. After that 48 hour point, I will compile a full list of our threats and give everyone a further 24 hours to comment on it and make any final changes before we move onto ability!

With that out of the way please continue the great discussions we’ve had so far, adding any final comments to pressures and getting the ball rolling with Checks and Counters!

 

[Deck Knight]

Realistically speaking, I think the amount of support Fire/Dragon can bring to bear with STAB options is enough that the pressure list we identified is solid. Assault Vest and some of our STABs and relevant options should be more than enough to deal with Pokemon like Clefable that tend only to use Special attacks. Getting Poisoned from Mollux's Sludge Bomb or via Toxic Spikes might be an issue, but fundamentally CAP 27 will be sound against those threats with an AV Set and proper damaging support moves.

Which brings us to checks and counters, and the most immediate ones I can think of on both the checks list are Rock types with even middling defenses.

Counters:

Rock-types:

|

Although Tyranitar is the slowest of the first three, it's also the bulkiest and just doesn't care unless CAP can hit it with strong super-effective coverage. Stone Edge from either of these three Pokemon will annihilate CAP 27. Stratagem on the other hand would only fear us if we had readily available paralysis, which might be an option to pursue but otherwise it is way too fast and aggressive not to be able to come in. Assault Vest helps, but not that much.

Ground-types:

|

Hippowdon and Colossoil do not resist our STABs, but are incredibly bulky. Fidgit has decent bulk but is also very fast, can't be poisoned, and has Wish. Colossoil would prefer Burn to Toxic infliction and likely has a Flame Orb anyway, but either way both of these Pokemon threaten CAP 27 immediately with strong Ground STAB. Ground-types that also resist Fire are similarly something that should just be a no-win situation. Toxic and then get the heck out against them.

Dragon-types (all checks):
Soft-checks (Pokemon that won't switch into a neutral matchup after a KO):

Hard checks (Pokemon that will switch into a neutral matchup after a KO):

Dragon types are all inherently checks to one another, and I think the pressure list identifies them well enough. The real question is going to be determined by where we want to draw the line. Personally, I think Dracovish and Defensive Cyclohm are the targets to keep in soft check territory, and every other Dragon (generally based on Speed) can be in hard-check territory. Shield Dust + Slack Off makes Defensive Cylcohm extremely resistant to our concept, so I don't believe it should prevent us from coming in. Offensive Cyclohm (such that it exists) is less problematic.

Other checks:

This list is primarily comprised of Water-types that are immediately threatening enough on switchin to pose a problem. Although Gyarados hates burn and Naviathan hates getting Flame Orb knocked off before it activates, otherwise they are very dangerous and might be difficult to prepare for going the full offensive support route. [I note here that Heatproof CM Naviathan would actually resist both STABs, but that just doesn't see real use]. Primarina resists both STABs and has powerful Hydro Pumps and Moonblasts.

The thing with the neutral matchup is, Dragon STAB is just not that relible. You get one strong Draco Meteor and then have to switch out on the Special side (Dragon Pulse is very mediocre), and on the physical side unless you are Dragupult, you're stuck with the Outrage vs. Dragon Claw dilemma, or Dragon Rush if you love missing. Whereas these Water types can just mow you down, especially if Pelipper is on their team giving a further boost to Water moves. CAP 27 is likely not going to win an attrition war with questionable neutral Dragon STAB vs getting mauled by 180 BP post-STAB Hydro Pumps or boosted Waterfalls every turn.

 

[Mx]

As far as the pressure list goes, I think it should be natural stuff that has been mentioned so far (Dragons, offensive Steel- and Grass-types, etc.). The excellent neutral coverage of Fire/Dragon means that we don't really need to worry about too many threats getting in our way, so it's not really necessary to add much to that list. Mollux and Clefable are probably the only two mons I would add, as those are the most notable bulky metagame staples that are neutral to our STAB moves. However, I think we should be pressuring them mostly with our support moves, not by trying to overpower them. Clefable in particular could be extremely problematic to break on both the physical and special side, which might end up forcing us to raise CAP 27's offensive prowess to an unhealthy degree for this concept. Other walls like Toxapex, Mandibuzz, or Arghonaut might be annoyed by our support options too, but I wouldn't focus on them at all and I'd prefer them on the checks and counters list, even if they are also crippled by the same support options.

Now, for our checks and counters:

Rock-types: As some have already mentioned, Rock-types are going to be some of the best checks for CAP 27. There aren't that many Rock types in the meta right now, but Tyranitar, Terrakion and Stratagem are the most notable ones, and should be able to beat us.

Ground-types: Colossoil won't be able to switch in into our moves easily but its Earthquake is almost certainly going to OHKO us, and has enough bulk to tank a move if needed. Hippowdon, Gastrodon, and Seismitoad might wall us depending on our offenses and can either directly threaten us with Earthquake/Earth Power or cripple us with Toxic/Knock Off. Mold Breaker Excadrill isn't a good inclusion here because of its Steel-type and middling Speed, but Sand Rush variants should be able to revenge kill us.

Dragon-types: While we will always pressure them with our own STAB, fast Dragons like Dragapult and Scarf Hydreigon should revenge kill us quite handily. Slower dragons like Nasty Plot Hydreigon and Pajantom might revenge kill us too depending on our speed, but I wouldn't count them as reliable checks just yet.

Generic walls: Because CAP 27 typing grants it incredible neutral coverage, I don't think we should be able to break past neutral walls easily, as that would give us very little defensive counterplay and greatly limit the amount of support options we can use without being broken. Some of these mons might be somewhat crippled by some of our support options, but that shouldn't stop them from winning 1v1 against us.

The exact list of walls will of course vary depending on whether we go physical or special, but it should probably look something like this:
Both Physical and Special: Toxapex, Gastrodon.
Only Physical: Arghonaut, Tomohawk, Hippowdon.
Only Special: Mandibuzz, Sylveon.

 

[MrPanda]

So the C&C time has come, and with the end nearing I would like to share my personal threatlist and some impressions.

(?) means that the pokémon can change its classification depending on the way that the process goes forward.

Switch-ins

: it's the main point here. It hates anything that CAP27 can do with it, so CAP27 should definitively be able to threaten and deal with all Corv's sets.
(?): another key point. Where it fit actually will depend on how we proceed, but I believe that it should stay here.
: they can just poison or paralyze CAP27. Easy peasy.
: it should be another easy entry, but Knock Off is a problem here. Nonetheless, we could circumvent this.
: same Zeraora situation, but more problematic because Fire moves are x4 super effective.
: it has a hard time with Fire moves and can't do much in return as long as it doesn't appeal to the paraflinch's powers.
: it has a great offensive prowess, but without an attack boost it is a easy entry.
: hjk is a big problem, but it doesn't do much outside of this.

Pressure

(?): it's really hard for CAP27 to deal with Clef reliably, but it seems there to be a big interest between some users in threatening Clef. For while I'll keep it here.
: Steel takes Dragon, Fire beats Steel. Yeah that's it.
: basically none Dragon-type wants to enter into Dragon moves, but the same way they are pressured by CAP27, they threaten it also.
: it's a big threat and a possible revenge killer, but run away from Fire moves.
: it can deals some considerable damage to CAP27, but it doesn't want to enter into Fire moves.
: same Bao situation.
: it has some difficulty in dealing with CAP27 without Sketched moves, but can still inflict it some damage.
(?): I ain't much sure about that. It can have some troubles in switch into Fire moves, but has access to Thick Fat. And once it comes in, it greatly threatens CAP27.

Checks / Counters

: just average speed Dragon-types. I'm supposing that CAP27 will have base speed of 90 to below (this isn't poll jumping, right?).
(?): its capacity to check CAP27 is quite arguable. Seism is extremely crippled by item manipulation and status conditions. I don't really know what think about it.
: it can take a Fire move and kill CAP27 in return. Although it would hate being burned.
(?): it has an interesting defensive matchup against CAP27, but I wouldn't hope much of it. I think it's too early to say anything for sure. In the end CAP27 can end up turning the tide.
: it doesn't care about the most of the things that CAP27 can do to it and can kill it easily.
(?): the major problem here is poison, but if CAP27 can deal with this, Toxapex does nothing to it.
: standard bulky ground mons. Ground STAB is awesome.
: it can't switch in many times, but if does it, it really threaten CAP27.
: same Seism situation, but it has a better matchup. It isn't so item dependent and has a reliable recovery.
: standard Water-types. Resists for the win.
: after calc and think a bit around, I keep my point here.
: great bulk, amazing damage output and recovery possibility. Definitively something to consider.
: specially defensive it's stupid. Physically it isn't so notable. It deals a ton of damage but can be crippled by burn.
(?): basically a offensive Sylveon. I don't know how far it would go, but it could cause us some problems.

 

[Mx]

I'm very skeptical at the idea of Water-types outside of Primarina being checks. They might resist our Fire STAB, but really none of them are going to be happy to switch into our Dragon-type moves (or our Fire-type moves in Naviathan's case) and even in a 1v1 situation, only Earthquake Gyarados can hit us for super-effective damage, meaning that their matchup are pretty much neutral. Depending on our speed and bulk they might be able to revenge kill us, but I really don't think they're reliable enough to warrant being put on the checks and counters list. Primarina is of course the exception, as it resists both of our STABs, so I'd be reasonable to assume it as a check.

 

[theotherguytm]

I'm very skeptical at the idea of Water-types outside of Primarina being checks. They might resist our Fire STAB, but really none of them are going to be happy to switch into our Dragon-type moves (or our Fire-type moves in Naviathan's case) and even in a 1v1 situation, only Earthquake Gyarados can hit us for super-effective damage, meaning that their matchup are pretty much neutral. Depending on our speed and bulk they might be able to revenge kill us, but I really don't think they're reliable enough to warrant being put on the checks and counters list. Primarina is of course the exception, as it resists both of our STABs, so I'd be reasonable to assume it as a check.

I'd like to point out here that Prim's STABs are both only neutral against us. So it can wall us as long as we are using our STABs, but a neutral coverage move might actually outdamage Prim if CAP 27 hits hard enough. And Prim gets no recovery.
So I'd like to agree that CAP 27 should not be hitting hard with its neutral coverage.

Assault Vest and some of our STABs and relevant options should be more than enough to deal with Pokemon like Clefable that tend only to use Special attacks. Getting Poisoned from Mollux's Sludge Bomb or via Toxic Spikes might be an issue, but fundamentally CAP 27 will be sound against those threats with an AV Set and proper damaging support moves.

I'd like to disagree with this. A 4 attacks set I think is anti-concept, as you aren't fitting in support options like Toxic and Wish, recovery will be hard to come by, and assuming an item that isn't the Boots is limiting.
Anyway, I agree the most important aspect of balancing CAP 27 is making Ground and Rock types counter us, and faster Dragons pressure us out on a free switch. We also should not be able to break bulky walls that aren't weak to our STABs, and it would be far more pro-concept to cripple them, then switch into an ally to break.

 

[Roland le preaux]

In general, I would like us to have a way to deal with (i.e. have a Pressure relationship with) most Water-types that aren't Primarina or part-Ground type. We gave CAP 27 secondary Dragon typing for a reason, and I would like for us to pursue options that shut down Toxapex, Gyarados, Pelipper, and especially Rotom-W.

I would like us to continue to hold up Rock and Ground types as our best Checks and Counters. Since we will naturally threaten mons like Tyrantitar, Hippowdon, and Terrakion with Burn, hopefully we can pay attention during the stats and movepool stage to make sure these physical attackers still threaten us as much as possible.

Assault Vest and some of our STABs and relevant options should be more than enough to deal with Pokemon like Clefable that tend only to use Special attacks.

I agree with theotherguytm. I think Clefable is a very special case that will most likely have to be remedied in the ability stage or the movepool stage in order to turn it into a Pressure. Given how easily Clefable can set up on any all-out attacker that can't 2hko it, and given that we are trying to make a support not a traditional wallbreaker, I don't like the idea of us just being able to Flare Blitz/Fire Blast our way through defensive Clef sets.

again a mon that we don’t beat on typing alone I think (I don’t know how often it has sludge bomb).
We don’t resist Poison stab and Mollux is not weak to our Stabs either.
Also it threatens to poison us.
So aside from coverage or raw power we still might have to rely on utility.
Mollux is immune to burn and poison though (abilities could remedy that) and cares not too much about Parahax.
Item Manipulation can cripple it and taunt torment could take away its Recovery.
So Mollux might after all be able to switch into us aside from trick (Pressure depends on stats)

I am worried about our ability to pressure Mollux, and it will pressure us quite a bit with the threat of Sludge Bomb or Toxic. It doesn't care about most status that we could inflict on it, and will likely be able to outlast us with Recover and its impressive bulk. If we want Mollux to be a real Pressure we may have to look for solutions in multiple stages. It might require more than a simple movepool addition to deal with this threat.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

I further the notion that Water-types are not at all checks aside from Primarina. Sure we don't want to particularly want to switch into strong Water-type attacks like Hydro but considering how we go neutral with Dragon-type STAB and most of these lack actual super-effective attacks to hit us I think the matchup leans far more neutral because of it. I think it falls much more into our favor thanks to our support capabilities as well, particularly status, as I don't imagine stuff like Keldeo don't like being paralyzed. So aside from a few Waters like Primarina and possibly Arghonaut, most Waters are either Pressure matchups due to our support moves, or straight neutral matchups not on this list.

I wanna cover some more Pressure stuff even if most of it has been covered.

: Most folk have already done my job for me in mentioning that Steel-types are scared of us but ones with strong enough attacks can threaten us back, and I think these three are the ones that do it. Equilibra is probably the most shakey of these since we can shrug off a Doom and otherwise its too slow to want to stay on us consistently but Earth Power will certainly hurt. Aegislash also is a bit slow and can also be burned on its Band set, but the sheer ferocity of Band Shadow Claw / Sneak apply pretty adequate pressure. Excadrill is the most solid of the three since it is notably faster, even if it can still be burned.

I do not think we will be realistically reaching a speed tier of get past Dragapult without bombing everything else, so this thing will certainly pressure us just because it can throw Draco at us in a 1v1 and win. Its pressure because it can't switch into us without eat a Dragon-type attack or some status, but I think it needs special mention from different dragons because of the speed tier and honestly depending on various stages I can actively see this moving to check. For now tho, very solid pressure.

: All of these fall are seriously dependent on stats, particularly speed, for specific placements but all of them are capable of applying actual pressure on CAP. Kyurem, Hydreigon, and Pajantom, all have fairly solid speed stats to shoot Dracos at us with, Dracovish just kinda hits hard when it can, and Cyclohm and Kommo-o I think have the bulk to take a hit and retaliate back.

: The fairy in the foyer. I think Clefable is going to be a pressure matchup regardless of what we do, but it is of my opinion that we should absolutely make sure it does not become a check if we can. Typing wise its a fairly neutral matchup but I think Fire-STAB gives us a nice edge, and I think through various support moves, particularly Taunt, we can make its individual efforts much more difficult. Making it a switch-in is imo not realistic without throwing the offensive support balance out of favor.

: Mollux is similar to Clefable in that its hard to break but I think resisting Lava Plume gives us a much more reliable pressure matchup against it, although stat biases are very much important to note in terms of our success in pressuring it. I am of the mind set this should be a decent beat with a mix of support moves and Dragon STAB, but this could certainly shift.

: Its really does not want to come in on us, especially under Sun. But I have trouble seeing ways of getting past its girthy Moonblasts, so pressure.

: Nect is hard to deal with once it is set up, but before that we can beat it nicely with the type matchup.

 

[Deck Knight]

The Water-types I selected have a similar interaction to Clefable, although I suppose a lot depends on stats. Gyarados has super-effective EQ, good Special bulk and Intimidate, Pelipper has Rain-boosted Hydro Pumps and its own utility, although it isn't going to like eating decently powered Draco Meteors. Keldeo is fast and powerful, and Naviathan gets Guts-boosted Waterfall and Facade if it can avoid a Knock Off on switch-in. While I think CAP 27 like all Dragons enjoys spamming Meteors in neutral situations, Fire has the more reliable and repeatable effects, so I think resistances to Fire should play a significant part in check definition.

I'd agree #NotAll Water types fit into the check category. Snaelstrom is an obvious exception, and Rotom-Wash just doesn't have the immediate power of Gyara/Peli/Keld/Navi backing it up. Arghonaut doesn't want to be burned or Toxic'd and is weaker and slower than Gyarados. Primarina's Speed makes it less immediately threatening with its high SpA, but its a perfect type counter that should be acknowledged.
Toxapex is aggravating.
Also we should probably talk about it.
It's nigh-unbreakable without SE STAB, doesn't care about status, and will launch Toxic and Knock Off at CAP 27 all day. While movepool remedies exist, I think they'll lead to suboptimal sets.

Speaking of, Knock Off on Life Orb Clefable defangs it quite a bit for the rest of the match. While it's still difficult to wear down, a lot of partners can now switch into it. Losing Leftovers hurts the other variants of Clefable.

Mollux is tougher. Huge SpA and Sludge Bomb (which is on the majority of sets) just can't be shrugged off easily. It also has its own Recovery. I think putting Mollux in Pressure needs to be an active choice, and it will have consequences down the line.

Jumbao is similarly stupid strong, but is weak to Fire. Unfortunately it sits at a problematic speed tier which will also alter Dragon checks down the line. Don't have a good answer for it.

 

[Jho]

Switch-ins:
Pressure: Faster Dragon-types
C&C: (General) :krillowatt:
(Physical only)
(Special only)

This is the preliminary list I've come up with using all the discussion that has happened around threats, though without knowing stats and movepool it is obvioulsy very difficult to categorise some frindge cases. I'll go over some notable missing mons that saw some discussion and some general thoughts;

Jumbao: In order for Jumbao to fit into a Pressure matchup, it would need to both outpace us and OHKO us with Moonblast otherwise it is just going to fall over to 2 fire attacks. Without knowing stats I'm not comfortable adding Jumbao here.

Colossoil in Pressure as apposed to C&C: Whilst Colossoil will certainly threaten us with its Ground-type STAB, It likely will not want to switch in to any Dragon-stab we end up carrying. It would also have to be wary of any Item Manipulation we end up having (if we do) if Flame Orb has not activated, or if it is AV, so I feel it fits better into Pressure.

Terrakion in Pressure as apposed to C&C: Whilst true that Terrakion can probably come in freely on our Fire-type STAB, our Dragon STAB is another story. On top of this, it is highly likely that CAP27 ends up with one, or many, moves which can inflict a burn, which will heavily dissuade Terrakion from actively looking to switch in. It can force us out easily however, so Pressure seems the ideal place to me.

Tyranitar in Pressure: Whilst much more likely to be able to switch in to our Dragon-type STAB more easily than Terrakion, it still heavily fears burns so I think it would fit better into Pressure.

Faster Dragon-types: All Dragons which are faster than us and carry Dragon-type STAB will be able to force us out. Since this is heavily dependant on our Stats stage, I feel it is much better to generalize here rather than implying our speed this early by dictating which Dragon-types are Pressure matchups.

I have tried to leave out Pokemon which are heavily dependant on where we fall in regards to Speed, as well as whether we are Physical or Specially inclined, as well as cut out a few of the less viable Pokemon which came up that I don't think are relevant enough and would clutter discussion going forward, since this will mostly be only a guideline until we get to Stats, where we can revisit once we know our alignment, as well as ability. With that being said, like I said in my previous post, changes to this list will be up for discussion for the next 24 hours, so if there is anything you adamantly believe should be included, or in a different matchup bracket, now is the time to share it!

 

[quziel]

I generally agree with most of the list above, however there is one element in particular I disagree with:

Terrakion: I believe that this should be listed as a check (not counter, should also probably be under pressure as the definition implies you can be on both), as like, it is almost guaranteed to be able to come into anything we do and force us out 1v1. That is, even with a burn I highly suspect that Terrak will be able to force us out, even if it comes in on Draco, its still forcing us out, etc, let alone if it comes into a Fire-Move.

"The list of Pokemon should, in some way, threaten us. This might mean that they will probably be able to beat us 1v1, or at least severely cripple us. Certain Pokemon, in particular Revenge Killers might be included both in here and in Pressure, because once they switch in, they should be able to check us."

Reading that definition, I believe that Terrakion fits it to a tee; its almost guaranteed to tank any reasonable dragon attack we throw out (you need 149 spA to OHKO it with draco assuming no boosting item), even burned it will likely threaten a 2hko with edge, and again, it resists and will happily come in on any fire move that isn't Lava Plume.

 

[Bughouse]

I think one item that should be addressed is CAP 27's relation to itself. While obviously the one with more speed investment will have the jump on the other one, I think it's reasonably important to decide if that necessarily means it should be OHKOing its counterpart.

It also raises interesting questions about whether we should be allowing/encouraging viable sets that don't use Dragon STAB, since these will be pretty well countered by opposing CAP 27 (something like Fire STAB, Knock, Taunt, recovery for example, which doesn't sound out of the question given the concept)

 

[Mx]

I mostly agree with the proposed list, with a few exceptions:

Terrakion: I agree with quziel that this should be on C&C. I'd still always maintain it on the pressure list, as the threat of a burn and our Dragon STAB will always make it wary of directly switching in.

:Krillowatt I'm not a fan of having it on our C&C, as it gets hit very hard by our Dragon STAB (252+ SpA Turtonator Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Krilowatt: 351-414 (79.2 - 93.4%) -- not a KO) and losing its Life Orb would cripple it significantly. Earth Power is definitely a threat, but even with Turtonator's mediocre special bulk (60/85), it'd fail to OHKO (252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Turtonator: 216-255 (82.7 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). This means that if we are faster than it, we might win 1v1 just after a bit of prior damage. I'd much rather have this under pressure.

Stratagem, Dragapult, and Scarf Hydreigon: Similarly to Terrakion, I'd add them to the C&C list while still maintaining them on our pressure list, as they should serve as effective revenge killers even if they can't switch in and the OP states that revenge killers can be included in this list.

As for the mirror matchup, I don't think we need to worry about it at all. Not using a Dragon move might be a valid choice in some sets, but it's far too early to tell, and if both sides have a super effective move, CAP 27 will never reliably beat itself, as you'd always be banking on winning a speed tie. I don't think this is worth including on any of our lists, as it shouldn't affect the rest of the process.

 

[Atha]

Switch-ins:
Pressure: Faster Dragon-types
C&C: (General) :krillowatt:
(Physical only)
(Special only)

This is the preliminary list I've come up with using all the discussion that has happened around threats, though without knowing stats and movepool it is obvioulsy very difficult to categorise some frindge cases. I'll go over some notable missing mons that saw some discussion and some general thoughts;

Jumbao: In order for Jumbao to fit into a Pressure matchup, it would need to both outpace us and OHKO us with Moonblast otherwise it is just going to fall over to 2 fire attacks. Without knowing stats I'm not comfortable adding Jumbao here.

Colossoil in Pressure as apposed to C&C: Whilst Colossoil will certainly threaten us with its Ground-type STAB, It likely will not want to switch in to any Dragon-stab we end up carrying. It would also have to be wary of any Item Manipulation we end up having (if we do) if Flame Orb has not activated, or if it is AV, so I feel it fits better into Pressure.

Terrakion in Pressure as apposed to C&C: Whilst true that Terrakion can probably come in freely on our Fire-type STAB, our Dragon STAB is another story. On top of this, it is highly likely that CAP27 ends up with one, or many, moves which can inflict a burn, which will heavily dissuade Terrakion from actively looking to switch in. It can force us out easily however, so Pressure seems the ideal place to me.

Tyranitar in Pressure: Whilst much more likely to be able to switch in to our Dragon-type STAB more easily than Terrakion, it still heavily fears burns so I think it would fit better into Pressure.

Faster Dragon-types: All Dragons which are faster than us and carry Dragon-type STAB will be able to force us out. Since this is heavily dependant on our Stats stage, I feel it is much better to generalize here rather than implying our speed this early by dictating which Dragon-types are Pressure matchups.

I have tried to leave out Pokemon which are heavily dependant on where we fall in regards to Speed, as well as whether we are Physical or Specially inclined, as well as cut out a few of the less viable Pokemon which came up that I don't think are relevant enough and would clutter discussion going forward, since this will mostly be only a guideline until we get to Stats, where we can revisit once we know our alignment, as well as ability. With that being said, like I said in my previous post, changes to this list will be up for discussion for the next 24 hours, so if there is anything you adamantly believe should be included, or in a different matchup bracket, now is the time to share it!

Is there a reason why you didn't put Aegislash on Pressure ? I don't see a reason not to.

I believe this to be a Pressure matchup. Both threaten each other. The speed doesn't matter that much, as banded Icicle crash will probably not ohko, and Syclant will often be blocked on this. If it's not locked yet, earthquaking on a switch would result in a big loss of momentum.

Conk should be added in Special only imo. It will easily have the upper hand if 27 ends up being physical, but it will be equal (ie Pressure) if 27 is special (they will threaten each other with a ohko move).
Edit : Nvm there is no special only pressure category. Well I'd recommend putting it in pressure.

and Because why not.

 

[Roland le preaux]

Great list! I only have a couple of issues I'd like to address.

I would like to us to pursue having Terrakion as a check, not a Pressure. While yes it does fear switching into a burn, we can easily tailor our stats and movepool to prevent us from beating it if it gets a free switch in on us.

I'd also like to pursue having Stratagem as a check, for the same reasons as Terrakion. I think we should most always lose to it in a 1v1.

I don't agree with having Krilowatt on our C&C list, for the same reasons that Mx outlined.

 

[MrPanda]

Though I agree with the most part of the preliminary list, I agree with the general thought about Pyroak being not in the list , and "faster Dragon-types". While CAP27 can definitively threaten them with its Dragon STAB or utility options, they could easily come in and revenge kill it once an opponent pokemon faints and CAP27 is in the field.

Also, I'm in the same boat as Mx about :krillowatt: being in the C&C list.

 

[Jho]

Switch-ins:
Pressure: :krillowatt: Faster Dragon-types
C&C: (General)
Checks: Faster Dragon-types
Counters
(Physical only)
(Special only)

Thanks to everyone who commented on the list posted yesterday, this is the list I have come up with using all the feedback and I think it hits all the points we set out to hit with meta relevant Pokemon - I am very happy with this! The main point of contention was the location of the Rock-types which in hindsight, I do agree with that they fit into both the Check and Pressure category, so I have included them in both, ditto with the faster Dragon-types. With that, I will be sending it out to ya boy GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEMARS for the ability stage!

mons that I didnt add that were mentioned towards the end

- It is not unlikely that we are faster than Aegislash, I see very few scenarios where Aegislash can win a 1v1 vs us so I do not think it fits into pressure.
- This one is pretty fringe imo since Conkeldurr is forced to run max speed, is actually quite squishy. I'm not completely confident in Conkeldurr's ability to beat us out. It is similar to Colossoil in that regard except that Colo is considerably faster and has stronger Priority even if we are faster so I am more confident in Colossoil's matchup as opposed to Conkeldurr.
- It's very realistic that Gengar cannot OHKO us and we kill it in return.