CAP 27 - Part 5 - Stat Limits Discussion

[Voltage]

Thirding Roland and quziel. So this isn't a one-liner I've found that we also want to live two CCs from Zeraora and even if Zera is holding Lefties, these limits make that task near impossible. I second quziel's move to raise the PT limit to at least 140, though it probably doens't need to be much higher than that. PS and SS limits are also fine by me since I was benchmarking them lower to begin with.

 

[Agile Turtle]

I think the Physical Tankiness limit needs to be increased. You need about 131 PT to take 2 Corviknight Brave Birds uninvested, and a little over 133 PT to take two Close Combats from a leftovers Zeraora before a bulk up boost, so at the very least the PT limit should be set at 135. I'd still like to advocate for 140 as I have previously in the thread however, to give a tiny bit more wiggle room.

I think trying to take two moonblasts from Jumbao is way too ambitious and will put our tankiness very close to the annoying to kill category that other regen mons fall into, so I don't think the Special Tankiness limit should be increased. We just need to accept that to beat scarf Jumbao we have to switch in to a Solarbeam. I think living two sludge bombs from mollux is also pretty ambitious, especially when it could run some special attack investment and sludge wave to get around it easily if it wanted to, and mollux is likely at best a 3HKO for 27. I think at bare minimum 27 should take 2 moonblasts from clefable, which requires about 110 ST.

I do think there is a good argument for raising the tankiness ratings a bit so slower submissions can still work too, and the BSR limit will help avoid faster spreads abusing that.

No matter what though, we do need to make sure that uninvested bulk is still good enough. I don't think we should force HP investment on this mon, and even though it's definitely bound to appear, I think a bulk invested 27 will rely on the perceived threat of an offense invested 27 to still work like an offensive support mon, so we should make it so the full offensively invested 27 is the main set.

I think the speed limit of 144 is a good one to set. I doubt anyone will submit with a speed that high anyway, but I like that there is still the option to outspeed Zeraora and Dragapult if we want to, and I see those as cool things to beat for our concept.

With that said though, I think we should set a stricter limit on BSR, more like 340, because some of the sets I've been workshopping I can set speed at 144 and have them under 350 and I don't think I should be able to do that without sacrificing other stats.

Other than that, I trust that you won't tolerate BSR abuse and I think we've got ourselves a good stats stage :D

 

[Wulfanator]

I think it is absolutely the smartest decision to set a hard limit to speed at 144. The calculation of PS and SS use the Speed Factor (SF) in their calculations. SF is just the number of Pokemon that have a slower base speed than you. Since there is nothing left to out speed at 144, the SF is constant from 144 all the way to max base speed. Realistically, I don't think it is in our best interest to even try pushing for this speed tier in the first place, but we should prevent those interested in hitting it from abusing the calculator.

I also think Jordy is on the money if not more than generous with his initial stat limits. Seeing as people want some more wiggle room with bulk, I would recommend not exceeding 135 for both PT and ST as it would still be on par with some of the mons we mentioned share similar functionality to what we desire. I would also consider dropping the BSR limit if we increasing PT or ST, but that is purely a personal opinion and should be taken with a grain of salt.

Edit: It is possible to meet the BB Corv calc with a PT of less than 135

 

[Deck Knight]

I would also like to recommend bumping both Tankiness ratings up to 135. We should not forget that we cannot always assume HDB will survive play within a match, and 27 is very susceptible to hazards. Even with Regenerator healing to full, coming in with only 75% HP after Rocks puts a strain on 27 that it doesn't put on something like Bisharp or Grimmsnarl, which have slightly lower PT (129.06) and ST (128.03) [respectively] than the initial proposed limit. I definitely remain in the camp of erring on the side of caution in regards to anything with Regenerator, but since inflating HP is a well known "cheat" to deceptive bulk, Tankiness ratings which do not make a submitter feel the need to bend to that urge are more helpful.

Remember, these are maximums and we try to dissuade people from playing on the edge of too many at once. There needs to be some buffer for submitters to make the case that their statline proposal is necessary for its push on a specific combination of a couple of near-limit stats. I do worry a little bit about the very upper limit of PSweep given that 27 is a natural core partner with Jumbao and I worry about nuclear powered Drought-boosted Fire attacks, but I think any submitter reaching for that limit will moderate in other ways. Have no concerns with the SSweep limit, it does not negatively impact the array of potential builds.

I do think the overall BSR limit is just a little too high. I can max out 3 out of 4 ratings and easily keep it below the limit. I'd say 345 is a good maximum. Still allows plenty of wiggle room and prioritization, but provides a better check to potential abuse. I feel a hard limit on Speed doesn't need to be mandated, but it would take rather incredible justification to consider outspeeding even some Choice Scarf Pokemon.

 

[MrDollSteak]

I don't have a lot to say this time around, I think that the limits are generally all fine, but do want to join the choir on a few points, specifically the PT and PS. I want to voice the support for the suggestion that PT be raised to 140 to satisfy the point about BB Corviknight, it's a valuable calculation that has been referenced a lot and I think is pretty crucial considering that we have what should be a favorable matchup against it. I do also agree with others such as Roland and Deck about the PS being a little bit on the high side and think that a PT of 210 would be a sufficient to allow us to achieve what we need. I'm neutral on the point about BSR total, I think 350 is a little bit on the high side, but as mentioned this is considering the smaller Pokemon pool and don't think there is a massive problem here. With the increase to PT perhaps a reduction to 340 or 345 is warranted but I don't mind either way.

I agree that 144 is a necessary hard limit to Speed, but to be honest, I would set it even lower to 141, because I strongly believe that we should not be outspeeding Dragapult, and that attempting to have such a high speed stat will affect our other offense stats too significantly.

 

[Jordy]

What's up everyone, thanks for the input! I've decided to increase both PT and ST by 10 each. On top of that, I'm going to decrease the total BSR by 10, as 350 was considered just a little too much. The reasoning for these changes can be found in the thread.

Stat Limits

PT: 140

ST: 140

PS: 215

SS: 170

Total BSR: 340

The Speed limit remains at 144 base Speed.

With that all worked out, I think it's about time to finalize these stat limits. You have 24 hours to give any feedback that you feel is important.

 

[Jordy]

It doesn't seem like there was any more input or feedback, so these are the limits I'm going to go with.

PT: 140
ST: 140
PS: 215
SS: 170

Total BSR: 340

The Speed limit is 144 base Speed.

Below is a short explanation for each of these choices.

Physical Tankiness: 140

CAP 27's physical bulk shouldn't be particularly great, but having the option to avoid being 2HKOed Corviknight's Brave Bird and Zeraora's Close Combat was seen as a desireable trait.

Special Tankiness: 140

Similarly to its physical bulk, CAP 27's special bulk shouldn't be particularly great either. 140 Special Tankiness is enough to potentially avoid being 2HKOed by Clefable, with a little more wiggle room. This was also seen as a desireable option by many.

Physical Sweepiness: 215

CAP 27 is looking to be a fast offensive pivot with a physical bias. 215 Physical Sweepiness is enough to reach a great Speed tier while retaining a solid enough Attack stat.

Special Sweepiness: 170

Some people expressed interest in a more mixed approach with a physical bias for CAP 27, so there's enough room for the Special Sweepiness here to reflect that.

Total BSR: 340

Because we want CAP27 to be a fast Pokemon, the BSR is inflated pretty massively. To stay around the same power level as previous CAP Pokemon like Equilibra and Jumbao, we've settled on 340 as the total BSR limit. This shouldn't allow for too much leeway and BSR abuse either.

Some people have expressed interest in outspeeding Zeraora and Dragapult, but because of the way BSR works, the increase of Speed on physical and special sweepiness would start plateauing, which'd allow for some heavy BSR abuse considering the much lower ceiling of Speed tiers this generation. We don't want to be outspeeding many Choice Scarf users either, so the limit is set at base 144 Speed.

 

[Jho]

This gets the all clear from me! Matches the ITC very clearly and will surely give us some great stat spreads!