CAP 28 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment

[snake]

Pipotchi's concept Roadblock has won the concept poll! In case you've forgotten, it's copied below. This is a very important stage: we're now going to discuss the concept and determine the direction of the project!

• Name - Roadblock
  
  
• Description - A Pokemon that excels at slowing down, punishing or otherwise disrupting the opposing team's pivoting strategies.
  
  
• Justification - This is a Target concept, we are looking to shut down Teleport, U-turn, Volt Switch strategies in the meta, as well as targeting the abilities and items that enable them. Right now, Teleport has come to dominate the metagame, and the advent of Heavy Duty Boots and new Regen pivots has taken U-turn/TP on certain mons to a new high. Kril is also just as frustrating as before, spamming Volt Switch among others. Furthermore, pivoting goes beyond just moves- Toxapex, Tomohawk and Equilibra are well-known pivots that act as a mid-ground between 2 pokemon, usually scouting and sponging a hit before switching to something more appropriate.
  
  
• Questions To Be Answered -
  -In what way(s) does pivoting most commonly manifest in the CAP meta?
  -What typings, abilities and items allow specific mons to become the strongest pivots, and how can we target these?
  -What do our target Pokemon gain from pivoting? Are they focused more on scouting information, sponging attacks, or dealing damage?
  -Is it possible to dissuade or even block pivoting attacks like U-turn using reactionary methods?
  -What are the difference between the direct methods and indirect methods of preventing pivoting, and which is appropriate for each target?
  -Do offensive or defensive playstyles work best for preventing different styles of pivoting?
  -Is it better in the current to create a blanket check to pivots, or a more tailored response to a few key pivoting mons/strategies?

Guidelines:
1) Pay close attention to the Topic Leader during this discussion. Their job is to keep us focused and to bring insight.
2) Do not poll jump. Poll jumping is a serious offense in these threads, and you can get infracted for it. Poll jumping is when you discuss something that should be discussed in the future, like specifying a CAP's stats or typing. You're allowed to hint at such things to conclude a point or to provide an example, but do not centralize your post on a poll jump. Poll jumping hurts the focus of early threads and can cause us to go off on a tangent. If you're not sure if you're poll jumping or not, err on the side of caution and don't post it.

CAP28's TL Mx will open the thread with his thoughts. Please make sure to read his initial post and his subsequent posts carefully and follow them for discussion! Keep posts civil and on topic, or else they will be deleted. Be sure to review the concept and the two guidelines above as well.

CAP 28 So Far

 

[Mx]

Congratulations to Pipotchi for winning Concept Submissions with Roadblock!

This should be a very interesting concept to tackle, as we'll be targeting pivoting strategies, and element that has always been an important part of Pokemon. Given that this is very closely related to the current metagame, I believe this stage is going to be key to determine the success of CAP 28, so we all need to be extra careful here. During this discussion, something that I want to make emphasis on is figuring out the scope we want from this concept, as "pivoting strategies" could refer to almost all of the current top tier threats, and I would really like to avoid turning CAP 28 into a Pokemon that simply tries to counter all the all the best Pokemon in the meta.

Here's some questions that I would like everyone to answer, as I think these are all going to be very important topics moving forward:

1. In what ways does pivoting most commonly manifest in the CAP meta?
2. In which different ways could we exploit these pivots?
3. Which pivots are the easiest to exploit? Which ones are the hardest?
4. Are there any specific ones we might want to focus on? If so, why?
5. How many of these pivots should we aim to beat?

EDIT: I originally forgot to mention this, but the TLT would like for this thread to last for 7 days. Please take that into consideration when posting.

 

[Gleeboop]

Are there any specific ones we might want to focus on? If so, why?

Teleport Slowking (gives strong attackers free switches), Banded U-Turns (How choiced mons react to potentially bad switches for them), and Volt Switch Kril (kinda niche tho, so maybe not that) are the first pivots that come to my mind. I would like to point out that Tomo handles the uturns remarkably and would probably become this CAPs main competition if that's what we focus on.

 

[Rabia]

1. Teleport should be the obvious one here; with the current dominance of delay move + Urshifu-S, there's a ton of Slowking usage because of how good Urshifu-S is at preventing Psychic-type answers from stopping Future Sight. Zeraora---and Krilowatt to a lesser extent---is also a very common site thanks to the addition of Heavy-Duty Boots letting it function as some blend of wallbreaker and utility pivot. We've also got our fair share of U-turn Pokemon, and, unfortunate, defensive Regenerator users like Astrolotl, the slow brothers, Amoonguss, and... Toxapex. The general idea here is that with pivoting, you're seeing either moves or defensive Pokemon that can easily stay healthy by virtue of ability and moveset.

2. The most obvious way is through typing or ability. CAP 28 could simply have a typing and ability combination that gives it a leg up on the usage of pivot moves, but I find this route really boring and not very interactive. When I think back to the Clefable metagame in OU, I really enjoyed disrupting its Wish passing with phazers like Hippowdon; preventing both the pivot and the Wish pass was really satisfying. Even Generation 3 (and in generations more recent) saw Suicune run these dirty Roar + RestTalk sets---alongside Spikes---to constantly fore switches and accrue residual damage. We could also look at Substitute Pokemon, which are great at taking weak pivot attempts and using them as a free setup opportunity. Similarly, setup moves like Swords Dance and Nasty Plot are effective at countering pivots. Hell, run Rocky Helmet on your teams even to prevent U-turn spam. The tl;dr of this is while typing and ability are valid countermeasures, there exist other options that shouldn't be forgotten.

3. I find Zeraora and Rotom-H to be the easier because Volt Switch has immunities, and these Pokemon are frequently tempted to stay in to use other moves anyway. The harder ones to punish are Teleport users, particularly the slow brothers because of their synergy with Urshifu-S and the guaranteed slow pivot because of Teleport's negative priority. Toxapex is also mildly annoying, but I think it's manageable.

4. Maybe Teleport users? The centralization of the metagame around the move Teleport is rather unhealthy and makes playing the game less fun all things considered. By adding an extra element Teleport users must consider, I think that'd make playing the metagame less tedious.

5. "Beat" is a really vague word, so I don't really know a great way to answer this. Something that isn't punished super heavily by Scald that can phaze Teleport users would be most preferred in my eyes, though.

 

[Zephyri]

Discord's been having a field day with this concept, so I'd like to put in some of my opinions over here.

In which different ways could we exploit these pivots?

The most obvious way to do this would be to have a typing that would be immune/resistant to all pivot moves. I would like to point out though that although that's an easy way to do it, it seems like defensive optimization and would possibly make for an unfun/railroady process that would be painfully linear. Another way to do it would be to have good MUs against all of the meta's pivots and prevent them from coming in at all, but IMO that faces the problem of being linear and becoming outdated (see: any concept that aimed to target very specific pokemon).

Some of my favorite ideas that have been mentioned on discord are substitute usage and punishing of pivot-ins(my own idea). Substitute offers an interesting way to punish weak u-turns and use that move as a setup oppurtunity, while also making it so that the pivot-in has a tough time breaking through the mon. Comparisons con be drawn to sub-suicune, who used roar and substitute to make the pivot turn a drain of momentum. Punishing pivot-ins is also an interesting idea.. a majority of pivot-ins fall under the category of mons that need a free switch cuz they are frail or in danger of losing health. By punishing said mons through passive damage or detrimental status, you basically render that pivot turn useless.

This is kinda unrelated to any of the questions, but i think something that needs to be answered is this: Do we want to punish the act of pivoting directly or make it so the pivot turn is wasted/is detrimental to the opposing team in the long run? The answer to this question can possibly give us some direction for later in the process and act as a crossroad for the process in general

 

[The Crusade]

Which pivots are the easiest to exploit? Which ones are the hardest?

Volt Switch is the staple pivoting technique used by Electric-types, and beating it is usually as easy as utilizing an immunity. Conversely, Teleport and Regenerator splashing are doozies to work against.

In which different ways could we exploit these pivots?

Volt Switch is shut down by immunities brought on by type or ability. In the latter case, the Electric immunity abilities further punish the move with healing or stat boosts. No such countermeasure exists for U-Turn, bar Wonder Guard, but any ability that punishes contact discourages it.

Going after Teleport is much trickier. Gen 8 introduced strong attack moves that punish low priority, but unfortunately they equally punish a raw switch. Instead, we may wish to consider manners of reliably short-circuiting the Teleport. For instance, our classic phazing moves share Teleport’s priority bracket. A phazer that outspeeds conventional Teleporters can turn a slow pivot into a misfire.

As for Regenerator splashing... at the moment, all I’ve got is hazards. I’ll sleep on it.

 

[MrDollSteak]

Congratulations Pip! Very excited for this Concept assessment!
1. In what ways does pivoting most commonly manifest in the CAP meta?
There are a range of pivoting strategies as well as pivots in the current CAP metagame. They can broadly be lumped into three categories, with some overlap. Choice-locked quick U-turns, Bulky Teleports, and Regenerator hard-switches. There are a few exceptions such as Zeraora, Tomohawk and Equilibra that either Volt Switch or hard switch respectively, but are similar to the first two categories.

2. In which different ways could we exploit these pivots?
This is a tricky question because all three categories and the other common pivots are all rather different. Fast U-turns and Volt Switches tend to be used to bring in bulky pokemon that will be able to resist an incoming move, or to scout a switch and bring in another abuser. Teleport on the other hand is primarily used to bring in frail offensive pokemon that can either come in on a wall or on a switch safely. Against both of these moves however, a few strategies can be found to deal with them effectively, namely set-up to take advantage of an incoming wall, substitute to protect the Pokemon against an incoming offensive switch, or a slower pivot or phazing move to nullify the pivot for further information can all be used to great effect. Against some of the premium hard-switching pivots in the meta, trapping moves or abilities could be used, although these are useless against Pokemon with pivoting moves. Ability manipulation mechanics can also punish the Regenerators in the meta specifically, especially if used on turns where they are either hard switching or using a pivoting move, so that they are unable to gain the 33% of their health back, although this is of course often going to be outshined by just raw damage.

3. Which pivots are the easiest to exploit? Which ones are the hardest?
In the current metagame, Teleport users tend to be some of the hardest to play around. Because they are generally able to tank some strong hits to use the move bluffing a hard switch, and also tend to carry strong utility abilities that regain Health or cure status when they swap out. Choice-locked U-turns tend to be easier to target particularly with Tomohawk, which is able to lower the attack of the opponent and tank U-turn quite nicely, or determine when it is locked into a non-Pivot move and hard switch to a counter respectively. Volt Switch is also quite easy to counter through the inclusion of a Ground-type on a team or a Volt Absorb user.

4. Are there any specific ones we might want to focus on? If so, why?
Based on my answer to the above question, I would suggest that we aim to counter the premium Teleport users in the tier, Blissey and Slowking. The reason is as above, because they are incredibly difficult to play around, and are able to generate a ton of momentum by bringing in offensive wallbreakers such as Urshifu in too easily. I think that we can reasonably ignore Volt Switch on CAP 28 because there are already a range of ways in which it can be denied in the metagame. Arguably the same can be said about U-turn due to the existence of Tomohawk that tends to be able to take on some of the most common U-turners, Urshifu, Crucibelle, Rillaboom.

5. How many of these pivots should we aim to beat?
I think it is possible to target both Blissey and Slowking simultaneously through a mixture of stats and typing alone, although carrying some of the potential move strategies mentioned above will be able to cement matchups for both hard switches and when Teleport is used.

 

[aaronarium]

In which different ways could we exploit these pivots?

"Exploiting" and "beating" pivots I think is a bit nebulous, so I'm thinking more along the lines of "how to we minimize the benefit of the opponent's pivoting strategies. To this end, I feel like it's important to keep in mind that pivoting is primarily a strategy for gaining and maintaining momentum (like it's no surprise that Tomo is such a big pivot when it's concept was literally "Momentum"). Maybe one of the angles to approach this concept with would be to consider how CAP 28 can rob the opponent of momentum? This could mean spreading status, phazing out the foe's switch-in options, limiting their move choices, and so on.

Are there any specific ones we might want to focus on? If so, why?

I'll echo what others are saying about Teleport users, but I'd argue that Regen spam is just as big an issue. Keeping pivots healthy makes pivots harder to play against (which like... obviously lol), but when the act of pivoting is what keeps them healthy, that's definitely a problem if pivots are to be eroded and dealt with by CAP 28.

 

[flying moose]

In which different ways could we exploit these pivots?

Generally speaking, there are two main ways to punish pivoting:

1. Damage the pivot or its allies

Maintaining hazards on the field is the one method that punishes all three of the main pivoting moves. A strategy of frequent switching is clearly far less lucrative when there is constant chip damage every time. Although once the pivot has gotten in, the pivot itself doesn't face any additional consequences for using the move--unsurprisingly, many of the best pivots are those that can easily shrug off hazard damage, by being able to easily heal back the damage, having hazard-resistant typings, or even by being outright immune. It also goes without saying that maintaining hazards is a multi-mon effort, and that the actual setting of the hazards needs to be done before the pivoting games in order to be effective. This makes hazard abuse a less plausible strategy for punishing pivots.​

The more direct method of damaging a pivot only applies to U-turn, in which a pokemon with a bruising item or ability switches into the move, causing damage to the U-turn user. This is most effective if the contact-punisher is highly resistant to bug moves or simply has high defense, so that the U-turner would have lost health in exchange for a very low damage output--other than the switch-in of the teammate, this is a poor bargain.​

2. Prevent the pivoting from happening, so that pivot would have wasted a turn that could have been spent on something else.

This mainly applies to Volt Switch, in the form of switching in an electric immunity--in so doing, the pivot has accomplished nothing while letting the electric-proof mon come in for free. This would be most effective at discouraging pivoting if the new matchup is very negative for the Volt Switch user.​

Teleport (and Parting Shot) are harder to stop, but can be prevented through the use of certain support moves. However, this by itself provides no punishment to the pivot. The pivot has wasted a turn failing to use the pivoting move, but the opponent has also had to spend a turn using the preventative move. And if the pivot user predicts the use of the move and attacks instead, then it is the status user that has wasted a turn, creating mind games for a pokemon that often has to already do the work of switching in. But the preventative move strategy can truly punish the pivot if it saps momentum or prevents a turn-dependent strategy--most famously by blocking a Wish-Pass or slowing the arrival of a Future Sight abuser--but also by allowing burn/toxic/weather/leech seed damage to build, or wasting turns of a field condition like reflect, terrain, rain, or trick room.​

The clear takeaway from this is that each of the three pivoting moves is punished using a completely different strategy. I therefore see two routes we could take for designing a pivot punisher:
1. Focus on countering one of the moves, and design a mon that is fantastic at punishing it (i.e. a mon that can repeatedly cause massive chip damage to U-turn users with low risk, a mon that is exceedingly dangerous for Volt Switch users to face that gets in for free, or a mon that excels at wasting turns of Teleport users while messing up its strategies or causing chip)
2. A multipurpose pivot punisher that has the tools to use several of these strategies at once (or can unpredictably choose between them)

 

[Karoshi]

Which pivots are the easiest to exploit? Which ones are the hardest?
Flip Turn, U-Turn, Volt Switch, Teleport, Parting Shot and Regenerator are the main ways people pivot while maintaining momentum with the former being the newest and least used.

Flip Turn, Volt Swich and Parting Shot all have abilities that make the user immune to them (Water Absorb, Volt Absorb, Soundproof, etc) and thus don't get the pivot effect. They are the easiest by far.

U-Turn and Regenerator can't really be stopped but can be exploited by good prediction and hit the incoming Pokemon hard as well as entry hazards if they lack boots, but that can mostly be said of normal switching.

Teleport is... interesting. Unless you can knock out the mon trying to use it the incoming mon is mostly safe. Only a slower phazer can really punish it. Definitely the hardest. Notably it doesn't hurt or effect the opposing mon however and thus the team using doesnt appreciate it when they use that to setup.

 

[SunMYSER]

In which different ways could we exploit these pivots?
I think Rabia hit it on the head, with his Suicune CM+Roar example. The easiest way to deal with pivoting is to take away their ability to chose what they pivot into. This approach, combined with hazard stacking could prove able to disrupt most of the pivoting strategies we see. My only concern here would be that this would sorta just serve as an anti pivot (the scissors to Slowking's paper) and the meta would mostly stay as pivot heavy as before, just with this singular disrupter.
The other way we could go is the Volkraken route of just hitting whatever comes in extra hard. My first thought for this goes to Mega-Mawile's use of Focus punch to punch through steel type checks. Rather than negating the pivot, you instead provide extra pressure on the thing that does come in.

Which pivots are the easiest to exploit? Which ones are the hardest?
U-turn and Volt Switch are probably the easiest to exploit ATM. U-turn has plenty of resistances in the meta and can be easily chipped by rocky helm mons, most notably by tomo. Volt Switch is equally easy, with a typing/ability based immunities being fairly common. Flip turn doesn't have any relevant users at the moment (Until Flip turn Argho is freed).
Teleport, as echoed by most of the people above me is quite difficult to deal with, allowing for the teleporter to take the damage, then pivot out to a appropriate mon. The most common users are the Slowbois, chansey, and blissey. All of these pokemon share the attributes of "bulky mons that are difficult to chip properly", and due to their splash-able nature, see plently of use in the Urshifu meta. I think if possible, focusing on beating Teleport with this CAP would be of the utmost importance.

 

[dex]

How many of these pivots should we aim to beat?
I feel like this question is basically asking if we should attempt to blanket check pivoting with CAP28. I feel like that would be impossible, or at the very least unfeasible given the time constraints. There's all kinds of pivoting, and dealing with Teleport would be different than dealing with VoltTurn, which would be different than dealing with Regenerator Mons. I think picking one of these strategies and targeting it with a bona fide counter would be the best route for CAP28 to go.

Given this, I want to suggest CAP28 focus on targeting Teleport users. VoltTurn is a more easily dealt with strategy than teleport, while Regenerator isn't, in my opinion, too annoying to deal with. Teleport users, on the other hand, inhabit a unique niche that is essentially better wish-passing without the danger of being read. This has proven to be extremely difficult to stop due to the general bulkiness of Teleport users. Teleport also stalls and lengthens games to an unbearable point that I believe is unhealthy for the meta.

Targeting the top Teleport users and their common counterparts in the CAP metagame would be a great avenure for CAP28 to go down, as it would provide an interesting discussion about how to temper what has become a ubiquitous strategy. Additionally, teleport spam is unhealthy for the game, and attempting to fix that would be a noble goal for CAP28.

Mons we should target:

Tier 1: should fully counter 1-2 of these mons, should apply heavy pressure to the rest
, , ,

Tier 2: important to be able to pressure 1-2 of these mons, should not be forced out by the rest
, , ,

Tier 3: should at least be able to stand up to some of these mons
Astrolotl, , ,

Tier 4: would be nice to not be weak to these but is by no means necessary
, ,

In which different ways could we exploit these pivots?
I'm going to answer this through the following question:

What can we learn from past generations/sets?
Mons that have performed strongly against these mons previously:
: Rough skin, good bulk, a strong typing, phasing, and immense offensive pressure allowed Garchomp to tear apart pivot teams. He wasn't even forced into one set, as both ScarfChomp and TankChomp were good in this regard. This gives us the strategy of just hitting so hard that whether the pivot stays in or not is irrelevant.

: SD/band Talonflame was able to heavily pressure most of these mons exluding the slow twins and rotom. I'm not saying another XY era Gale Wings is a good idea, but strong priority could be an option to disincentivize pivoting as it significantly reduces the ability of scarfers or fast band/Zeraora coming out of Teleport.

: A good typing, access to strong priority and recovery, and outstanding physical bulk allowed bulky Scizor to be a great answer to pivot teams. Defensively invested SD sets brought a whole other dimension of punish game against pivot teams. Tanking could be a good role for CAP28, though there are some problems with attempting to blanket check common offensive switch-ins.

: An outstanding typing, access to strong recovery, good coverage, phasing, and status spamming allowed Gliscor fulfill the role of the defensive utility and anti-pivot mon on many of my past teams. However, Gliscor also had the ability to be both a setup sweeper and Stallbreaker with swords dance and knock off+earthquake spam. While he may too defensive for the concept, his movepool and playstyle could be used for inspiration.

In summary, the roles I see CAP28 fulfilling well to counter pivoting are: Wallbreaker, Stallbreaker, Sweeper, and Physical Tank. If I've learned anything from this conversation, it's that the typing conversation will be incredibly important to how effective CAP28 is at its job. I think learning from these past sets would be really helpful in looking at the concept from all angles and coming up with the best mon!

Also sorry if that was poll-jumping, this is the first CAP I've actually tried to be active for. Just let me know if it's not allowed!

 

[Pipotchi]

Thanks to everyone who voted for the concept, Im excited to see where it goes!
I wanted to share some of my thoughts quickly on the questions

In what ways does pivoting most commonly manifest in the CAP meta?
For me the 2 things I see the most is a Teleport user, and use of Regenerator/Intimidate for midground scouting/sponging. Some examples of both are Blissey/Slowking as users of Teleport, coming in on a special attacker thanks to their great Spdef, optionally setting a field effect like SR/Future Sight and then Teleporting out into a good matchup. For scouting the best example imo is a Toxapex/Amoonguss + Mandibuzz core, where the poison type switches into an Urshifu's Dark/Fighting stab, and if it did use the dark move it'll switch right back out into the Mandibuzz to hard wall it. This can be done repeatedly despite Urshifu doing over half since Regen heals off quite a lot from the Wicked Blow.

Are there any specific ones we might want to focus on? If so, why?
I agree with people above that Teleport and Regenspam would be the best route because it might be the most unique, as well as being the most meta relevant. I think its possible to make something that handles those and also some U-turn/VoltSwitch strats, but Id prioritise the Tele/Regenspam. I feel like it would be a mistake to totally disregard U-turn though, as it is often on the same turn as Teleport and getting stuck in a vortex with this mon would imo be a pretty big oversight.
tldr i dont mind what we go for in particular but id like to look more towards the higher tier mons in this list:
top tier of relevance
__________________________________________________
:krillowatt: and Astro 2nd tier
__________________________________________________
3rd tier


EDIT: also, talking on discord has made me think that each group is fairly compact enough (comparing wall and offensive pivots for instance) that each ability slot could focus in on a different type of pivots. Thatd perhaps be a bit more realistic than trying to create something universal, while not hyperfocusing in on just Teleporter and allowing for more exploration.

 

[quziel]

For me this concept is defined by three aspects; our relation with Slowking, our relation with Zeraora, and our relation with "bulk spam pivots". I'll explain this now.

Defining Pokemon

Slowking is really the face of DD/FS offense atm, and for good reason, it beats libra, it has Future Sight, and it has Teleport. Cause of this, Slowking will come in multiple times a match, will spam Teleport, and will get momentum for its team thanks to impressive special bulk and regen. I am honestly not entirely sure how we punish this outside of either setting up a sub on it (that tanks scald), threatening it with insane damage, or taunt spam, and none of this works if it just clicks teleport as we switch in. Granted, offensively threatening it means that its legit a Teleport bot, so that's probably enough?

Zeraora is a secondary mon that appears on these builds because well, its the fastest mon in the meta, it forces switches literally for days, it has great coverage, and thanks to Volt, if you bring it in with Slowking on say, Hydreigon, you can just gain momentum there cause the Hydrei is often forced out. Tackling this aspect is a fair bit easier though; Amoonguss provides a good blueprint being resistant to its main coverage, and having Regen to win the war of attrition, which is where Zera really excels. I don't think that like, making a regen mon that resists all its moves is the way, but just "resist main spammed moves and have some kind of longevity" is really where we're gonna help this issue or being Volt immune ofc. Though I do note that adding a Ground typing really doesn't help with priority #1, aka Slowking.

Bulk Spam Pivots these are roughly divided into three categories, Regen Poison types, Flying types that resist Dark, and Equilibra, and all play a very vital role when paired with Pivot move users; they provide a huge roadblock to most anything you can bring in on the pivot move users, and mean that if you fail to time a Teleport/Volt right, you can just go to them to avoid losing too much momentum. These are just constraints on STAB typing and coverage more than anything, perhaps they push us to be less weak to Intimidate. But these are all things we need to keep in mind going forwards.

Blissey , Krilowatt , Syclant these are imo the gravy mons, we really should have some way to at least match up well or not lose to a few of these; blissey is somewhat easy due to its exploitable physical bulk and reliance on Stoss, Krill has limited power but unlimited coverage, Syclant is strong as shit, and this is a reach goal imo.

--------------------------
Old Examples

Garchomp with its tankchomp set is one thing in the past that's quite relevant to this convo because of how well it disrupted pivot spam thanks to Ground typing, Rough Skin + Rocky Helmet, and Dragon Tail, which basically made it a fool's errand to use any kind of Pivoting move against it, as it would either not work, or result in you taking ~30% damage. Dragon Tail goes even further with this, by denying any kind of momentum your opponent could gain from a hard switch out some percent of the time. Its ability to punish pivot spam using basically every aspect of the mon is def something relevant, as is well, subSD sets.

Vileplume is another mon that heavily punishes pivot spam in every meta its relevant thanks to Effect Spore, neutrality to U-turn and a resist to Volt Switch, and high spA even uninvested. Sleep Powder is another aspect that helps it punish Pivot spam, as there is basically no way to have a mon answer that + Sludge Bomb. This source of unconditional progress, that is, a move that doesn't really care if they stay in or switch out, is something I think we should be looking for in several stages going forward.

--------------------------
Thoughts on Pivot moves:

Punishing Teleport: There are few ways to do this, but they either revolve around the fact that Teleport doesn't do damage, or mechanics. Substitute is something I think will be very relevant going forward, as it means that Teleport is a net momentum loss for the opponent as they suddenly have to deal with your mon being behind a sub. If we can ensure this sub isn't easily broken by other momentum gain moves that's a net gain. Phazing moves are a secondary option; as seen in Tankchomp they are excellent at punishing situations where an opponent is switching out due to either a Pivot move or hard switching out, the main question here is; what should our speed be in relation to Slowbrothers? Hitting them hard this is the simplest answer, but if we have a mon that can come in on Slowking/Blissey and just force them to hard switch out instead of Teleport out due to the threat of doing 70% damage that's an effective way to prevent Pivot spam, though we would have to be careful about our relation with Tomohawk/Mandi. Taunt is a nice option, if, and only if, you are already in vs them, or if you manage to come in on a non-scald turn, I don't think its really reliable enough as it only works if they decide to click teleport and you are in.

 

[reachzero]

In what ways does pivoting most commonly manifest in the CAP meta?

This question is dependent on an important point: distinguishing "pivot moves" and Pokemon commonly called "pivots" now, meaning Pokemon that intend to spend only one or two turns in the battle at a time, intending to switch in and out frequently. These Pokemon especially include those with Regenerator, but do also include those that use actual pivot moves, notably Teleport. U-turn and Volt Switch are less problematic for several reasons: the most important is that they are already punishable, via Rocky Helmet (in the case of U-turn) and Ground types (in the case of Volt Switch). Most importantly, the Volt Switch and U-turn users we actually have in the metagame are not particularly oppressive, while Teleport users are. Krilowatt is good but not a top metagame threat; Kerfluffle, Dragapult and Urshifu are the sort of Pokemon that can do actually damaging things while in. Rotom-H and Rotom-W are good pivots that use good pivot moves, but neither is incredibly powerful.

On the other hand, Slowking and Blissey in particular are amazing pivots in the sense of using slow Teleport to gain momentum while coming in frequently and easily; Toxapex and Astrolotl abuse Regenerator to come in and make slow, incremental progress; Mandibuzz comes in on a wide range of things and uses U-turn very effectively.
In which different ways could we exploit these pivots?

The most common trait among all defensive pivot is weak offensive presence. Astrolotl, Toxapex and Blissey each are something of a momentum sink against, for instance, Pokemon with Taunt or Substitute.

Which pivots are the easiest to exploit? Which ones are the hardest?

The hardest pivots to exploit, in my opinion, are Blissey, Slowking and Mandibuzz, very defensive Pokemon which use pivot moves which are unblockable and especially Teleport which does not make contact. If these Pokemon Teleport/U-turn when CAP 28 comes in, it is virtually guaranteed that no progress will be made.

The easiest pivots to punish are those that use Regenerator spam rather than Teleport, and especially Toxapex and Astrolotl, which depend heavily on Knock Off and Toxic to make progress. Of particular note, Slowking is a special case in that it frequently uses Future Sight, a delayed momentum move that could be exploitable for CAP 28 if it comes in on that turn.

Are there any specific ones we might want to focus on? If so, why?

I think it wisest to focus on those that come in the most often, have the least offensive presence, and rely the most on support moves for effectiveness--effectively ignoring Krilowatt, Syclant, Zeraora, etc. in favor of focusing on Astrolotl, Toxapex, Blissey, Mandibuzz and Slowking. There is no way to actually punish a Pokemon effectively for clicking Teleport, so it is important that we punish the turns where Teleport is not being clicked--when Blissey clicks Softboiled, or Slowbro clicks Future Sight, etc.


How many of these pivots should we aim to beat?


It is not possible to stop literally every pivot, but I feel that the greater the offensive presence of the pivot, the less we should be focusing on it. Beating Toxapex, for instance, is significantly more attainable and less specifically demanding than beating Krilowatt, and the slow, defensive pivots have far more in common that would allow them to be handled as a group than the faster, more offensively-oriented pivot move users.

 

[Zephyri]

I want to reiterate the idea of punishing the pivot-ins as an interesting way to execute the concept, and I understand that what that means might be confusing, so lemme explain that a bit further.

List of B or above mons that wanted to be pivoted in with slow U-Turn/Teleport: | | | | | | |

Now, we can generalize a few things about these mons, namely the fact that they are all speedy, have low bulk/don't want to take attacks, and are also used as revenge killers. There are ways that we can generally punish all of these pokemon... dropping their speed stat, using the tport turn as a stat boost oppurtunity, leech seed, status, strength sap, etc. Regardless, it would definitely be fun and interesting to target offensive pivot ins in general, rather than attempting to tackle the large variety of pivots.

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The pivots that we want to exploit:

I'd say the most important pivots to exploit are the common bulky Tport ones (Blissey, Chansey, Slowtwins), along with the bulky spam mons that quziel mentioned earlier. I feel that putting these mons into a corner with things like Taunt and status could be the best way to force them out or scaring them from coming in in general.

 

[20Yelram02]

In what ways does pivoting most commonly manifest in the CAP meta?
We have to define pivoting first, which isn't hard. "If something pivots, it balances or turns on a central point"; from the Collins dictionary. Obviously, it's a little different in competitive pokemon, but the idea is much the same; a pokemon that pivots is one that moves around a central point in the team, in order to get them in safely in most cases. We see this most commonly in the CAP meta with pokemon like Tomohawk, Syclant, the Slowtwins and the Eggs. They utilise a variety of moves, particularly U-turn, Teleport and Volt Switch (in other examples: Krillowatt, Cyclohm, etc.) to switch on their own terms, potentially taking damage (or status) instead of the teammate that's about to come in. There is also the added bonus of chip damage, but that's beside the point. Pivoting is to provide safe switches and it is found most commonly in the above pokemon and moves.

In which different ways could we exploit these pivots?
Exploits are always fun, however, with how accessible and good pivoting is, I don't believe it's possible to shut down pivoting. Exploits aren't meant to solve everything on their own though. Using the pokemon and moves above as examples, we could reduce damage from all three pivoting moves (including Flip Turn) by creating a Ground/Water type with Drought this negates Volt Switch, reduces damage from U-turn and reduces damage from Flip Turn. Unfortunately, it doesn't help at all against Teleport. Perhaps a Poison or Steel type to avoid Toxic from the Eggs or Slowtwins and force them out with . . . coverage? In the first place, they already want out. Second, Teleport gets them out of there regardless and a potential Poison type fears Slowtwin STAB. The, now Steel type, potential CAP 28 needs to run taunt to stop a Teleport. It isn't reasonable to be able to stop both at the one time. We could also target what is coming in with good prediction, as long as it isn't Teleport (not as good of an option as others).

Which pivots are the easiest to exploit? Which ones are the hardest?
And so, we arrive at the conclusion that both methods appear easy to exploit. Volt Switch and Flip Turn can be outright stopped by immunities (granted by type or ability) and U-turn can be punished with Rocky Helmet (or similar abilities). Teleport only needs to be Taunted and it's lost momentum. So really it's a bit of a toss up, but Teleport has a much bigger impact on the meta at the moment. We all know how it works, but just for the fun of it; Teleport's -6 priority bracket and usage on bulky pokemon (Slowtwins with Regenerator) leads to pokemon coming in scott free. With the additional support the Eggs and Slowtwins provide via Toxic/Stealth Rock/Future Sight shenanigans, it's become a dominant force in the meta. -6 priority means anything with Taunt can hit the Taunt.

Are there any specific ones we might want to focus on? If so, why?
It appears I may have accidentally covered this in response to the above question. I firmly believe we should focus on Teleport due to its prominence in the meta. This might lead to a rise in pivoting by other methods, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

How many of these pivots should we aim to beat?
As many as we can really. Realistically, the four Teleport users (and Clefable if it comes back).

 

[flying moose]

Regarding offensive measures for punishing pivoted switchins, it's worth noting that there are some abilities and moves that increase damage after switching, such as Stakeout, Analytic, and Fishious Rend. Designing a tanky mon with these options that can underspeed slow U-turn, Volt Switch, and Flip Turn users and hammer the incoming pokemon could be another route to go. Of course we seem to all be in consensus about targeting Teleport, to which this does not apply.

We have been discussing Taunt and Roar as some of the few moves that could prevent or mess up a Teleport strategy, but there are a few other options as well, such as Encore and Trick + Troublesome Item (usually a Choice Item). The latter is notable for permanently limiting Teleport strategies, although the bulky pivot can still fulfill the basic core of the method--coming in to absorb a hit and Teleporting out to get something in safely. A more extreme, probably gimmicky strategy we could consider would be designing a mon that actually utilizes Klutz, which could plant an Assault Vest on the pivot and truly stonewall the method.

Of course, Trick has its own problems--namely that the user only has one shot to plant its item, and that it has to work around having a restricting item (or in the case of Klutz, not getting to use an item).

 

[Mx]

Alight, great discussion so far! I forgot to mention this on my first post, but the TLT would like to finish Concept Assessment on seven days, so expect this thread to end around next Monday night (of course this might change if deemed necessary).

I'm probably going to make a more substantial post around Thursday to move this thread forward. Until then, please continue with the current discussion.

 

[aaronarium]

I think reachzero has the right idea in saying how we should focus more on support-based pivots than offensive ones. Offensive pivots often have good reasons to consider using an attacking move over pivoting if it could mean netting a KO. On the other hand, defensive pivots with limited offensive presence like Tox, Blissey, and Mandi typically have to decide between pivoting and choosing an option that drains momentum like healing, spreading status, or getting some chip damage in. I say "drain momentum" because moves like these ones that bulky pivots often use many times don't see instant benefit or direct pressure put on the foe. When the alternative can run the risk of the opponent getting a better foothold, it isn't surprising that Pokémon like these are such troublesome pivoters. The support options of course help support their pivots though, so if these utility options are what help facilitate better pivoting, I agree that the best option would be to focus on their users.

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

As far as pivots go, the easiest ones to exploit by far are the hit & run pivots, as Volt Switch can be blocked by Ground-types in its entirety, and U-turn and Flip Turn can be discouraged through the use of Rocky Helmet in combination with a contact punishing ability such as Static or Flame Body. Teleport seems to be on everyone's radar as far as I can see, but I feel as though Regenerators are just as troublesome, as all they have to do is hard switch (which is the hardest to stop) and they get an extra 33% of their health back and piss CAP28's owner off all over again. The Slowbois get special mention since they can fish for burns with Scald, set Future Sights up and Teleport to scout out switch-ins.

Still, there are only a couple of ways I know of that really have the potential of stopping someone from getting what they want out of a Teleport. One way is through the use of a slower phazer, like Karoshi mentioned above. However, I do have a better idea that's more likely to work, and that is using Trick Room on the Teleport turn. True, the opponent may wonder why their -6 priority Teleport just became the first move all of a sudden, since Trick Room has an even lower priority score of -7, but ideally that alone should make them think twice before clicking the mon with the big fuck off Sweepiness score that they would've originally wanted to get the free switch into.

...

That's pretty much all I have to say that hasn't been said already. I have no preferences on what we ultimately decide CAP28 should focus on, but I would prefer if we could stop as much pivoting with this one mon as we possibly can without pushing it over the edge.

 

[Amamama]

Teleport only needs to be Taunted and it's lost momentum

I think this is a great misconception, as using taunt to prevent Teleport is at best a lost turn for both - if the Opponent actually uses Teleport or at worst a turn where one uses taunt and gets hit by an attack, after which the Pivot just switches out anyway.
I think it’s unrealistic to consistently create a scenario where we will be able to taunt the Trleport users and gain anything from it.

 

[Krazyguy75]

I think this is a great misconception, as using taunt to prevent Teleport is at best a lost turn for both - if the Opponent actually uses Teleport or at worst a turn where one uses taunt and gets hit by an attack, after which the Pivot just switches out anyway.
I think it’s unrealistic to consistently create a scenario where we will be able to taunt the Trleport users and gain anything from it.

The reason teleport is strong isn't because it simply lets them switch out. If that was the case it'd be 100% worthless cause literally anything can switch out normally, and most (if not all?) trapping abilities are banned. The reason is that it protects the new 'mon from getting hit on entry, allowing fragile mons to get a turn with no damage at the cost of a bulky mon taking the hit. So there is a huge difference between what they can do when taunted, especially given they can do so

That said, I think it is important that if we do go with the taunt method of punishing t-port that we have some nasty surprises for the next pokemon. We can't deny too much offensive capability or else we lose the ability to punish the hard-switches we force. Not to mention that we still want a good matchup against the bulky teleport users themselves, cause it's quite likely that they'll be able to predict the taunt simply based on the choice of pokemon.

On a different note, in response to a different idea, I personally don't love the idea of turning this 'mon into a trick roomer. While it's true that that could counter teleport by letting you get an easy first blow, it also makes this 'mon super situational and niche, as most parties don't want to operate with Trick Room up. If we're trying to reign in pivoting, a niche pokemon that can only be put on certain teams is not the way to go. We need something that can fit into a lot of different possible teams and still fulfill its role.

 

[quziel]

I've had to explain this a bit in the discord so I'd like to make a brief post about what beating X pivot move entails w.r.t. the threats, their main attacks, and their main coverage.

U-turn

Syclant carries Ice/Bug/Ground coverage, making it very difficult to wall given that well, that's functionally perfect coverage, with only Water-typings, certain Ice-Typings (technically Avalugg?), and Ground-immune Fire-Types answering it atm. Urshifu carries Wicked Blow, Close Combat, and U-turn, with an additional slot that is often Sucker Punch, beating this mon means you beat CB Wicked Blow / CC spam, which is a very tall order. There's a reason its answers are Poison+Mandi, Tomohawk, or well, not giving it space. Weaker U-turn users such as Dragapult and Mandibuzz exist, and beating them is more down to resisting their STABs.

Because of the difficulty inherent in answering what are two of the strongest and hardest to wall of CAP's breakers, I don't think we should really focus on beating U-Turn much at all atm. Beating Mandi / Pult is def a plus for the design going forward.

Key Attacks: Wicked Blow, Icicle Crash, Draco Meteor, Will-o-wisp, Foul Play

Volt Switch

Rotom-Heat , Zeraora , and Krilowatt define this category, all relying heavily on their strong electric stabs, with a fair number of coverage attacks. Zeraora is imo the most important mon here due to its near omnipresence on Pivot-move spam teams, and it carries Close Combat and Knock Off. I think that, given its relatively lacking power, and three move coverage, its quite reasonable for us to have a positive matchup against it. We should probably be good against at least one member of this category.

Key Attacks: Plasma Fists, Overheat, Close Combat, Knock Off, Surf

Teleport

There are two main threats in the meta that use Teleport, Slowking and Blissey . Given the overwhelming influence of Teleport / Pivot Slowking in the meta atm, I think its a mon we absolutely should be able to beat if we want this concept to work. Being able to switch into its Scalds is something I think is very reasonable. Blissey is the other half of this category, and realistically you can expect it to use Seismic Toss and Toxic as its main ways of applying pressure.

Key Attacks: Scald, Seismic Toss, Toxic

As I said before, I think its quite important for us to be able to stop a vortex from happening; that is, if we beat the slow Volt/Turn users (Mandi/Slowking/Blissey), we should at the least not have a losing matchup against the fast Volt/Turn users (at least one of Zeraora, Krilowatt, Syclant).

 

[Darek]

The consensus here seems to be that we should focus on the bulky Teleport pivots, and I would agree with that as well. However, it's important to consider that if CAP28 matches up favorably against these Teleport users, then more often than not players will be in a position where CAP28 comes in against the teleporters, not the other way around. What this means is that often on the turn CAP28 comes in the opposing pokemon will Teleport out. So while options like phasing, substitute, and taunt are all viable, I believe CAP28 should be able to take advantage of Teleport simply by coming in. As many in this thread have already mentioned, Teleport is particularly difficult to punish in this way compared to the other pivoting moves. U-turn and Flip turn's contact can be exploited, and Volt Switch can be stopped with an electric immunity. For teleport, the only real way to take advantage of it is, as Zephyr2007 pointed out, is to prevent the desired pivot-ins from coming in, halting the opponent's momentum.

However, this puts us at the issue where we want CAP28 to be able to beat the bulky teleporters and the offensive mons. This at first seems to require making a mon that just beats everything, which of course isn't what we want to do. One way to fulfill this role without being too overbearing I believe would be to make CAP28 a wallbreaker with strong priority, along the lines of Crawdaunt with Aqua Jet. Ideally, this would prevent the opponent from pivoting in their offensive threats in fear of priority, while also having the power to break through the bulky teleporters themselves, but still leaves CAP28 open later after being choice-locked into their move.