CAP 28 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment

[Mx]

Well, I think at this point it seems clear to me that most people want to focus on Teleport. This seems like a very reasonable route to take, as Teleport users are some of the best pivots in the metagame and they are very hard to punish at the moment, so finding a way to do so should make for an interesting CAP 28. That said, something that worries a bit about this path is that it doesn't really take into consideration if this would actually make for a interesting project, so I fear that choosing this so early might end up limiting a lot of our choices in future stages. For that reason, I'd like to ask this to people that support Teleport as our main focus:

• Are there enough options that focusing on Teleport wouldn't railroad later stages into very specific choices?

Apart from that, U-turn, Volt Switch and Regenerator are other forms of pivoting that have also seen a lot of discussion. I think everyone agrees that trying to counter all of these is not realistic. That said, I think we should should still try to target at least a few users of these other strategies even if our main focus is Teleport. This would open up a lot of possibilities for later stages and should make for an much more fully fledged up final product that explores our concept much better than just targeting only one specific pivoting strategy. Please let me know if you agree or not with this.

Finally, here's some additional questions to help us better understand what to expect from CAP 28:

• What roles (wall, sweeper, cleric, stallbreaker, etc.) could fit our concept?
• Are the any roles we might want to avoid?
• Should CAP 28 be primarily offensive, defensive, or a mixture of both?

 

[aaronarium]

This is going to sound kind of tautological, but my opinion is more that we shouldn't focus on Teleport, but the kinds of Pokémon that use Teleport. The four biggest users of Teleport in the meta (Slowtwins and Pink Blobs) are all deeply tanky, so it stands to reason that the kind of Pokémon that we want to oppose them should pose a good threat to their defensive power. That said, creating something that threatens defensive/tanky pivots also leaves the door open to putting pressure on non-TPers like Mandi, Tomo, Tox, Tang, Amoonguss, and maybe even Equillibra and Corviknight. Obviously the point isn't to create a 'mon that threatens all these powerful presences, but making a point of harming teleporters doesn't have to smash us into a single route, since we can tailor other stages to target a healthy mix of other pivots.

As such, I am of the opinion that making CAP 28 a stallbreaker would a sensible route to take, maybe have a little cleric thrown in too. By threatening the walls and fortifying ourselves against some of their tools like status and chip damage, we might be able to make the foe reconsider the usage of pivots if they could be played around easier.

Sweeper isn't bad, but I think could be a tricky situation to make it something that targets the pivots specifically instead of just a generally good offensive Poké. However, I think that wall is an actively poor choice for this concept. Many of the tools that Teleporters and bulky pivots use (like status, healing, Regenerator, low-ish damage moves like Scald or Knock Off) would be difficult for another wall to overcome, especially given the presence of moves like Heal Bell, Wish, and the fact that stall is generally slow to gain momentum. And when we are facing pivoting strategies, losing leverage like that could prove fatal.

If it wasn't obvious, I support an offensive route for this 'mon, with a little bit of tankiness to hold its own against the utility/offense moves we may face, but I won't indicate any other specifications I'm thinking of for the risk of polljumping.

 

[jas61292]

First off, I totally agree that primarily targeting Teleport users is probably the best and most interesting way to go. I have seen plenty of radically different ideas thrown around as far as how to do this, so I am not personally concerned with there being enough options for discuss.

Now, as far as what role to fill, I think we first need to look at what kind of team we want to be used on. One of the primary challenges for this project is that pivots come in and out many times throughout a battle, and so, the most direct route of challenging such pokemon would likely require us to do the same. However I feel like a mon that "stops pivots" by being a new pivot that just takes away some of their usage would go against the spirit of the concept. Furthermore, pivots are some of the best Pokemon in the metagame right now, and so if we want to limit pivots, we should work to make sure that, not only do we help with the opponents pivots, but that we are not encouraging this mon to just be used along side said pivots. In other words, even if this mon shuts down Slowking completely, if its best partner is Slowking, it likely will have done little to disrupt pivoting.

So, I think when determining roles, we should also want to look at team types. What kinds of teams have trouble with Teleport pivots, and what kinds of teams are unlikely to use Teleport pivots. With that in mind, I think the ideal rout for this mon would be more offensive. Sweeping or Stallbreaking are the two most obvious routes, in my opinion, but I think that if we are going offensive, we need to make sure we do not just make a mon like Urshifu, that is a great partner for the pivots. Obviously, any Pokemon, especially offensive ones, like the free switch in a Teleport user can provide. But I think we would be best off if we either made a breaker that relies less on pure power, such that it does not fill into an Urshifu like role, or a mon that finds itself most at home on a hyper offense team.

 

[MrDollSteak]

Are there enough options that focusing on Teleport wouldn't railroad later stages into very specific choices?

I think this is a great question, because it is a legitimate concern. I think the main viable ways to target teleport as already mentioned in the thread in terms of moves, such as Phazing, Set-Up, Substitute, etc. demonstrate that at least in the context of moves, there are a range of options to consider, and subsequently a range of different ways we can gear our stats to make use of these different move strategies. It may be worth it, however, to try and identify a few as part of a potential 'defining moves stage' so as to inform how to gear stat spreads, and potentially even abilities.

I definitely agree that apart from teleport we should try and target another pivoting strategy. I would personally recommend that Regenerators be targeted as part of this ancilliary concern, partially because there is overlap in usage through Slowking, but also because many of the Pokemon that form a Regenerator pivot core, tend to operate with Teleporters, and as such we are effectively targetting the same archetype and being more specialised, rather than just having positive matchups against a range of different teams automatically.

• What roles (wall, sweeper, cleric, stallbreaker, etc.) could fit our concept?

I'm going to echo Aaron's suggestion that we will likely want to be a stallbreaker. I think by being able to threaten large amounts of damage on the two key Teleport abusers, as well as some high usage Regenerators like Astrolotl or Toxapex, we will be able to threaten slower teams that rely on pivoting to create endless longevity to their team. There's a range of different avenues that we could use to create this, either by just being a strong wallbreaker, or by having set-up for example. Being a sweeper w

• Are the any roles we might want to avoid?

I think the main roles we should avoid are passive or defensive ones. I think it is pretty crucial to our aim of beating Teleporters (and potentially Regenerators) to have a strong offensive presence so as to punish them for staying in and tanking a hit before pivoting. Forcing hard switches at full health for example and getting hits on switchins I think is core to actualise the concept and I think that is incompatible with us focusing on being a wall or a cleric ourselves.

• Should CAP 28 be primarily offensive, defensive, or a mixture of both?

As mentioned above I definitely think we need to be primarily offensive. It's possible that we could take a mixed approach by being tanky since many of the Teleport and Regenerator mons are slow, we wouldn't necessarily need to be fast to succeed, and could opt for being bulky to deal with potential offensive switchins that are brought in. I think that we will need to be careful, however, to ensure that if we go for a bulky route that we don't end up crossing the threshold into becoming a defensive wall, as I think that will encourage opposing Pokemon to pivot out on us if they can't break through our damage and are able to outspeed us.

 

[reachzero]

Are there enough options that focusing on Teleport wouldn't railroad later stages into very specific choices?

Focusing on Teleport depends heavily on what you mean--stopping Teleport is impossible, especially so if Slowking/bro/Blissey uses it on the turn CAP28 switches in. The Teleport user will just go to a CAP28 counter, and the sequence resets. That being said, Slowking/bro and Blissey are absolutely punishable. This is, partly because the above scenario, while not ideal for the CAP28 user, is also not ideal for the Teleport user! An ideal sequence for a Slowking user looks like:

-Slowking comes in on Tomohawk.
-Slowking uses Future Sight as Tomohawk switches to a Slowking counter.
-Slowking counter does something only moderately threatening while Slowking uses Teleport.
-Slowking user brings in something only Tomohawk can counter, creating a double-bind.

This scenario is dependent on the Tomohawk user not having something like SubPlot Hydreigon that can take punish the turn spent on Future Sight--if he does have something (CAP28!) that can punish the temporary loss of momentum, he can force Slowking to Teleport right away until CAP28 is dead. That exposes the other team members to potential entry hazard damage, allows Tomohawk to stay in and attack, etc.

In other words, pivots are effective when they have something to do before they pivot out. Force them to pivot early, and you negate much of their power.

I believe offensive Pokemon are the best at applying pressure in these sort of situations, but several roles should work, as long as they can come in and make a large impact on the game in the turn where a pivot uses Future Sight, Stealth Rock, etc.


What roles (wall, sweeper, cleric, stallbreaker, etc.) could fit our concept?

I personally feel that sweeper and stall breaker (in that order) are the best fits. When you want to force an opponent to respond, offensive roles can break a game open very quickly if not addressed. The sort of incremental progress offered by defensive Pokemon is much harder to make work over the course of a battle against pivots, since it plays strongly into the playstyle of the pivot user.

Are there any roles we might want to avoid?

This should be obvious, but I think making a pivot would be a really bad idea. Other than that, I think this concept is almost impossible without pretty significant offensive presence, so while I could see this going a more Gliscor-like route rather than a pure sweeper, I don't think it'd be wise to fight pivots with another Pokemon that promises more 100+ turn battles.

 

[LowenCraft]

Are there any specific ones we might want to focus on? If so, why?

Volt Switch is a little bit OP, and there is a very low chance that the Pokemon that uses it is the only one in the party! So we might want to focus on Volt Switch, and take out Pokemon like Heliolisk!

And I also think it should be weak to ice types

What roles (wall, sweeper, cleric, stallbreaker, etc.) could fit our concept?

Tank or wall I guess.

Should CAP 28 be primarily offensive, defensive, or a mixture of both?

I'm echoing most people's suggestion and pick Offensive

Alright, great discussion so far! I think it's time we start wrapping up this stage, so this is your formal 48 hours warning.

Aside from that , I'm planning on compiling a list of the different methods to disrupt pivots at the end of this thread. Here's what we have for now:

• Substitute
• Phazing (Whirlwind, Dragon Tail, etc.)
• Taunt
• Strong Priority
• General Offensive Pressure

This list doesn't mean that we're going to be getting all or even most of these items, but we should keep a close eye on them, as they will be important factors moving forward. If you have any suggestions of things to add or remove from this list, please say so in this thread.

I support the usage of Dragon Tail! Besides, Dragon types are weak against ice types, and I want CAP28 to be weak to ice types!

 

[Pipotchi]

What roles (wall, sweeper, cleric, stallbreaker, etc.) could fit our concept?

I think as people have already said, sweeper and some kind of breaker are both potent roles here. Agree with Reach that punishing pivots for not running immediately is quite a strong way to neutralise the power of their pivoting moves (the example of not giving slowking the choice of slow pivoting after teleport is good), and that means we need the tools to immediately pressure them when we switch in.
The strongest pivots rack up more and more value the longer the game goes on, and an offensive mon looks to actually cause KOs and speed up the match, weakening the value of the pivot. An example would be letting a breaker like Heracross or Colossoil come in- it has next to no switchins and even though it will deal a lot of damage to itself it can often guarantee a KO. This mon doesnt need strong longevity to make an impact, as this route of trying to keep up with a pivot over 80+ turns may just turn us into the newest pivot in the meta.

A sweeper could definitely work if done carefully- for instance something like SD Rillaboom can be immediately threatening while also having priority to help in other more offensive pivot situations like avoiding getting vortexed (constantly u-turned and volt switched on by a pair of pivots with opposite counters). Sub prim grabs free turns on Teleports and weak u-turns and punishes the opponent very heavily for it. I think this is a great example of where we could go with this.

Should CAP 28 be primarily offensive, defensive, or a mixture of both?

There is definitely room for defensive utility in the mon if the slots are available, but I think this mon will be most impactful in its role (as well as having the most space to explore) on the offensive end of the spectrum. If it did go for a more defensive route, we would still need strong offensive presence to threaten these pivots who are also the walls of the current metagame. The level of Rotom-Heat's Discharge will not cut it vs the likes of Slowking, to give one example, who can still feel comfortable Teleporting on it unboosted.

I think it could be worth noting that offensive presence excels against Teleporters/scouting pivots, and something more reactive and defensive tends to be the way to go vs the more offensive U-turns and Volt Switches. I think there are plenty of routes to go that can use EV investment and different abilities for instance to lean more one way than the other, and give our scope a little less of a laser focus on Tele. An example is how Moltres can turn some fairly medium defensive stats into a strong defensive set with the right evs, while also fully capable of being a Choice Specs menace on another team.

 

[Wolf134]

What roles (wall, sweeper, cleric, stallbreaker, etc.) could fit our concept?

Stallbreaker, definitely because it would enable us to at least give some of the most common Teleport users (HDB Blissey and the Slow twins definitely come to mind) a very tough time switching in, while enabling at least some degree of pressure on VoltTurn users (Zeraora and Urshifu in particular). The way to go about this can be done either through sheer brute strength (through stat boosting or otherwise), or through some degree of utility trickery, maybe even a combination of both.

Although, technically speaking, a sweeper could be workable to that end, provided that we proceed with caution with regards to typing, movepool, abilities, etc.

 

[Mova]

What roles (wall, sweeper, cleric, stallbreaker, etc.) could fit our concept?

We would find a stallbreaker useful to deal with Blissey/Chansey, and Slowbro/Slowking and discourage them from switching in. We would also find it ideal to pressure Zeraora and Urshifu (Single Strike) via utility trickery or even through raw power, with or without boosting. If our CAP needs to boost, I guess we can turn that stallbreaker into a sweeper, but we have to be careful with aligning typing, movepool, abilities, and whatever else 28 needs to thrive.

Should CAP 28 be primarily offensive, defensive, or a mixture of both?
This CAP should focus somewhat more on offensive capabilities, but it shouldn't be particularly fast if it mostly wants to focus on countering Blissey/Slowking, which are already pretty slow as is.

I will suggest against making another pivot, though. We're trying to stop them and would not want battles to last for any huge number of turns.

 

[spoo]

Echoing the thoughts of others to say that a stallbreaker/wallbreaker or a Pokemon with a strong and immediate offensive presence is necessary if we want this concept to succeed. Answering defensive pivots through defensive means is inefficient and won't apply enough pressure to stop the opponent from pivot-chaining and continuing to gain momentum. If CAP28 is a defensive pokemon that uses options more oriented towards utility and incremental progress such as knock off, leech seed, taunt, or statuses, I think we would simply be too passive to stop Pokemon such as Slowking or Blissey from taking a hit and teleporting out into the right breaker. However, I also believe that attempting to create a purely offensive force (something along the lines of Urshifu or Syclant) would be the wrong move here as well. Pokemon such as Urshifu are prone to getting worn down in drawn-out games, a kind of match that pivots often excel in. I fully agree that attempting to speed up the pace of these long, drawn-out games is an excellent strategy that we should follow, though I worry that if we create a powerful yet binary wallbreaker or sweeper, it will simply get worn down too easily, in addition to likely having equally binary checks and counters that are likely pivots themselves, eg Tomohawk reliably answers Urshifu and is itself a strong and common pivot. In my opinion our goal should be to force the opponent to respond to CAP28 in ways that drain momentum for them as opposed to continuously pivoting around, and I am unsure if creating a binary wallbreaker would succeed in that goal.

Additionally, the issue of getting worn down is one that I think is incredibly important to this concept. Pivots generally are at their best when their team has hazards up, statuses spread around, and can keep pivot-chaining back and forth- Slowking + Zeraora is a pivot core that has been mentioned in this thread as well as discussed heavily in the discord server and is a great example of a core that can keep clicking pivot moves to endlessly gain momentum and gradually wear the opposing team down until they can eventually net a KO. To work around this issue, I believe it's crucial that we have some degree of longevity ourselves. This is perhaps counterintuitive, because a Pokemon with enough longevity to survive in matches with rampant pivoting may likely be a pivot itself, potentially worsening the problem of games taking forever to finish, however I don't think that this needs to be the case. There is absolutely a balance to strike between having enough offensive presence to immediately threaten opposing pivots and force the opponent to immediately respond, and having the longevity to not get buried under the 100+ turns that these games sometimes take, but I think striking that balance is definitely attainable and would go a long way for this concept. This is essentially my answer to Should CAP 28 be primarily offensive, defensive, or a mixture of both? - a mixture of both would be best in my opinion, essentially "heavy offensive bias but escapes being worn down easily" would be the ideal for me.

 

[Mx]

Alright, great discussion so far! I think it's time we start wrapping up this stage, so this is your formal 48 hours warning.

Aside from that , I'm planning on compiling a list of the different methods to disrupt pivots at the end of this thread. Here's what we have for now:

• Substitute
• Phazing (Whirlwind, Dragon Tail, etc.)
• Taunt
• Strong Priority
• General Offensive Pressure

This list doesn't mean that we're going to be getting all or even most of these items, but we should keep a close eye on them, as they will be important factors moving forward. If you have any suggestions of things to add or remove from this list, please say so in this thread.

 

[Zephyri]

In regards to how we could take advantage of pivots and disrupt them, I feel that there are two methods that haven't been mentioned on Mx's list, those being setup and general stops on momentum. I feel that, instead of giving a mon a huge attack stat, a better way of encouraging offensive pressure could be to encourage setup on the pivot turn, but make the mon itself have a defensive bias. I think some good examples of similar mons are SD Gliscor and CM Suicune, both mons becoming scarier when they take advantage of wasted plays and setup. Substitute and Phazing both mesh pretty well with that concept idea. General stops on momentum include things like Tspikes, Spore Amoonguss, phazing or Neutralizing Gas... basically moves and abilities that just put a stop to the things that make pivoting so useful and fun in this meta. Although I'm less fond of this route compared to the setup route, I just wanted to put it out there either way.

Should CAP 28 be primarily offensive, defensive, or a mixture of both?
Although people have said that we should go offensive, I want to point out that there is an interesting defensive route, in which we make something along the lines of SD Gliscor, or SubRoar Suicune. A pokemon that doesn't have offensive investment but makes up for it with setup moves that provide significant offensive pressure. Basically gunfort... but better suited for this concept. I do agree that offensive presence and pressure is required, but i feel that overoptimization of the "offensive bulky mon" route could lead to something like equilibra. I don't think a huge attack is what we need rn. It's in my opinion that a defensive bias but interesting offensive pressure options could make for a generally interesting, fun, and not-railroady concept.

In the end, what I want to say is that although an offensive route may seem like the only one, we shouldn't shut any doors too quickly and all routes, especially defensive, should be considered. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk

 

[aaronarium]

When it comes to the methods of disrupting pivots, I feel that the most appropriate question to ask would be "what is the most reliable way to ensure that the pivot wasted a turn". As such, I think that the most reliable thing to do would be to focus on the things that CAP 28 does to itself, if that makes any sense. Once the pivot happens, the agency is with the opponent so switch to whomever they feel like, without the our influence. Sure, we can lure and predict, but that isn't the same as being in control. As such, Taunting or Phazing, while they may stop pivoting in that moment, they ultimately leave it up to the opponent to decide how they want to react to us. And us, the Taunter/Phazer, haven't changed in any particular way that may affect their strategy. On the other hand, if we were to employ strategies like Substitute or a boosting move, the opponent now has to play around the fact that by pivoting instead of applying direct pressure, they handed us a turn to set up and pose a greater threat. And if they keep pivoting, they're just handing us more turns to snowball out of control. Maybe "setting up" doesn't even have to mean Sub or boosting. We could put up screens, set down a hazard, heal, or something else entirely.

Either way, I still think that the best way to go about this would be to have strong general offensive pressure. Being "out-passived" by Regenerators or other walls I don't see dissuading pivoting as a strategy. Whether we want to go the route of tanky utility, all-out offense, or something else remains to be seen, but I think it's the most understandable way of fulfilling the concept.

Edited to clarify my thoughts further.

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

I still want to advocate Trick Room as solid method for making the opponent regret clicking Teleport. Most of the offensive threats that want to be in are fast sweepers or middling-speeded mons with a massive attacking stat, so successfully setting Trick Room up may just be enough to shut them down completely. The Teleporting mons themselves tend to be fairly slow, so we'll likely want to go even slower should we decide to go this route. Or alternatively give CAP28 just enough speed to outspeed them naturally and give it Room Service so it can afford not to flip the Trick Room switch if it's not quite yet ready to for whatever reason. That might be something to think about.

In any case, I'm on board with most everyone else that has posted thus far, in that I believe we'll want some form of offensive bias to CAP28 if we want to pull this concept of. It doesn't need to be a massive bias, however. In fact, if we give it too much of a bias, I fear that the opposing mons will quite easily pick it off and then go back to pivoting around the rest of the team.

 

[flying moose]

I made a post earlier about Trick and Encore being additional tools that can disrupt Teleport strategies, so those can be added to the list.

While its clear that CAP28 should have offensive presence, I think a stall breaker is a better route than a flat-out offensive option like a sweeper. Slowking is bulky enough that it's probably unrealistic to design something that can OHKO it, meaning that if carrying out the Teleport strategy is important, a healthy Slowking could use Future Sight while CAP28 switches in and then tank a hit while still Teleporting away to the switch-in. While we would have weakened the Slowking and made it harder to repeat the process, it would have succeeded in creating a high-pressure situation for us. The Slowking user simply had to learn the power limit we're capable and budget accordingly. Contrast that with a scenario where they have to predict if we're going to slam them with an attack, prevent the Teleport with Taunt/Encore, Whirlwind them away, or even cripple them with a Choice Scarf, and suddenly the calculus for the Teleport user is much more complicated. They won't know if clicking Teleport will result in damage + success or simply be a momentum drain, and they won't know if hard switching will be a free switch on a Taunt or a slam from powerful attack. These mind games are an important part of stopping a pokemon such Slowking.

 

[ImperialGamer517]

Should CAP 28 be primarily offensive, defensive, or a mixture of both?

Probably defensive is the right route. Roadblock means to disrupt the opponent’s pivoting strategies, right? A great example “probably” of this is Taunt users such as Kommo-o, Mandibuzz, and Mew, which can disrupt the ever dominant Teleport. With the exception of Mew (since it is a suicide lead), they can prevent Teleport users like Clefable and Slowbro from doing their job well, and they tend to run defensive sets as well, so probably CAP28 should be probably on the defensive.

 

[Wolf134]

I want to advocate for Speed Swap as an alternative to Trick Room, or some other forms of speed control so as to make the opposing trainer regret clicking Teleport. Speed Swap may enable CAP28 to still become a potent Stallbreaker, while exploring a new, unexplored form of speed control in singles. Speed Swap may also render CAP28 a bit more balanced as it doesn't completely invalidate Trick Room as an option.

I also wish to advocate for Extreme Speed as a strong form of priority so as to potentially discourage other forms of pivoting besides Teleport.

Should CAP 28 be primarily offensive, defensive, or a mixture of both?

As far as that goes, I think CAP28 should have at least a decent defensive bias, but I also think it ought to be able to pull its own weight offensively.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Alright, great discussion so far! I think it's time we start wrapping up this stage, so this is your formal 48 hours warning.

Aside from that , I'm planning on compiling a list of the different methods to disrupt pivots at the end of this thread. Here's what we have for now:

• Substitute
• Phazing (Whirlwind, Dragon Tail, etc.)
• Taunt
• Strong Priority
• General Offensive Pressure

This list doesn't mean that we're going to be getting all or even most of these items, but we should keep a close eye on them, as they will be important factors moving forward. If you have any suggestions of things to add or remove from this list, please say so in this thread.

Honestly surprised hazards hasn't made the list yet. If the problem is getting worn down by a never-ending pivot chain without being able to claw out any momentum, putting the chain on a timer is probably the best way to go about it. While it's true that many of the mons we want to be good against have Regenerator, most of the mons being pivoted into don't. This has been the primary method of punishing pivots since Gen 4, and has really only fallen out of favor in more recent years is because many of the best hazard setters are gone and Heavy Duty Boots has given them an item-reliant out.

 

[Rabia]

Honestly surprised hazards hasn't made the list yet. If the problem is getting worn down by a never-ending pivot chain without being able to claw out any momentum, putting the chain on a timer is probably the best way to go about it. While it's true that many of the mons we want to be good against have Regenerator, most of the mons being pivoted into don't. This has been the primary method of punishing pivots since Gen 4, and has really only fallen out of favor in more recent years is because many of the best hazard setters are gone and Heavy Duty Boots has given them an item-reliant out.

Hazards aren't very effective at crippling these chains because of Heavy-Duty Boots; Zeraora, Rotom-H, Dragapult, Blissey, etc. are all common Pokemon that lack Regenerator but commonly use the item to give a boost to their longevity. Even Syclant can get a mention here thanks to Mountaineer making its Stealth Rock weakness null. Sure, hazards are useful if you want to chip away at breakers like Urshifu-S and Kyurem, but realistically most of the Pokemon that are part of these chains either run Heavy-Duty Boots, have Regenerator, aren't weak to entry hazards, or possess some combination of the previous three traits.

 

[Gekokeso]

Right now I’m leaning towards the options of Phazing, Substitute and General Offensive Pressure, the later being the most important. Taunt is rather useless as the pívot may just switch or attack, and generally speaking coming into a pívot just to taunt generally drains momentum and doesn’t solve the problems of u/flip turn or volt switch. Strong priority is interesting as an option but it generally just mildly chips away at the opponent and does not really stop the opponent from pívoting.

We don’t want the opponent to think “this mon mildly annoys this strategy but i can still do it to a certain point,” we want the opponent to think “this mon won’t allow me to send the mons I want to the field” or “if I pívot this mon will tear through my team” and the later options do exactly that. Substitute is a great anti-momentum stealing tool, as the momentum that pívots gain from u-turn and other moves is lost as the mon behind the sub has to be hitted twice, one time to break the sub and one time to actually damage the mon. Phazing is a fun way to mess with momentum, as the pívot is unable to bring the wanted mon into field and another mon is sent in its place, thus completely messing with its momentum. While both ways have little disadvantages, such as sub slowly chipping out our health and phazing making the mons always go last, they can greatly help with making a Pokemon who crushes pivots. However, the absolutely most important thing we need to take in account is for CAP 28 to have a General Offensive Pressure, as the role of CAP28 is to crush these types of teams, which means that it will need either a large coverage pool, great offensive stats, good setup moves or a combination of the options above.

Overall as an extra I want to add that I love how a lot of the unused proposed concepts such as Substitute teacher, Gun Fort and others seem to be able to merge with this concept, I’m glad that the failed ideas of so many people can be used to bring creativity to this concept

 

[quziel]

One thing that I've not seen mentioned here as a way to deal with Pivoting (perhaps because it ties into pivoting in general) is the concept of "free" longevity, which is a lot of what Gliscor excel vs Pivot-spam strats. That is, Pivot teams typically win when they can just spam pivot moves enough that your answer to one of their speed control options is in range, and then they can sweep.

Gliscor is not perfect in this regard, its 4x weakness to ice meant that it really didn't answer Volt Switch well at all, but its free recovery in Poison Heal is definitely a reason as to why it could excel in longer games against these styles, as even if Pex is gaining 5000 HP for free through regen, so is Gliscor. Now, this is not the only way to get "free" recovery, and thus avoid being worn down by Pivot-spam teams, Amoonguss is another great example, though is more a pivot that does well against pivot spam, especially thanks to how Spore basically breaks a chain. SMNU Vileplume is a third option, as due to its very high base SpA, good bulk, and Giga Drain, it could use any free turns it gets to heal up, and thus avoid being worn down. Thanks to its high power it also generally forced the opponent to either break their pivot chain, or be carrying literally Togedemaru.

In general, "wallbreaker or stallbreaker that has some way to gain HP without clicking recovery" is a mold that may serve us well for this concept. Whether this free HP is through draining attacks (Giga Drain, Draining Kiss, Drain Punch, Parabolic Charge), ability (Regenerator, Grassy Surge, Poison Heal), or some other manner (high momentum healing moves such as Strength Sap arguably count), a pokemon that can withstand endless Pivot spam, and put the opponent behind while healing up is something I think we would do well to prioritize.

Edit: Addressing TR vs SS

Honestly, I don't think either Trick Room nor Speed Swap is enough of a bonus to base the entire concept around it; practically speaking they're somewhat niche sweeping options that area already done to a fair degree by Agility. We can definitley have them as options, but I don't think they are good enough to be the central thrust.

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

I want to advocate for Speed Swap as an alternative to Trick Room, or some other forms of speed control so as to make the opposing trainer regret clicking Teleport. Speed Swap may enable CAP28 to still become a potent Stallbreaker, while exploring a new, unexplored form of speed control in singles. Speed Swap may also render CAP28 a bit more balanced as it doesn't completely invalidate Trick Room as an option.

The biggest problem with Speed Swap is that it doesn't share the same negative priority as Trick Room does. This means you can't use Speed Swap against the Teleporter itself; you have to allow the Teleport to go through, and then survive a hit from the mon that they managed to get in for free. Chances are, that's the bigger hit to take than one that could possibly be delivered from the Teleporter itself (unless that attack would target a weakness or something, which I imagined would be covered for by the time CAP28 is fully created).

Trick Room cuts that middleman out entirely, which is why Trick Room is the more effective, and therefore superior option here. Don't get me wrong; Speed Swap is cool and all, but Trick Room does a better job at ensuring CAP28 gets the first hit against whatever gets Teleported in for the reason I outlined above.

 

[Pipotchi]

Alright, great discussion so far! I think it's time we start wrapping up this stage, so this is your formal 48 hours warning.

Aside from that , I'm planning on compiling a list of the different methods to disrupt pivots at the end of this thread. Here's what we have for now:

• Substitute
• Phazing (Whirlwind, Dragon Tail, etc.)
• Taunt
• Strong Priority
• General Offensive Pressure

This list doesn't mean that we're going to be getting all or even most of these items, but we should keep a close eye on them, as they will be important factors moving forward. If you have any suggestions of things to add or remove from this list, please say so in this thread.

seems like a good writeup for disrupting pivots so far, i think immunity, hazards, and item removal are all valid additions to the list even if they dont get explored in the end; immunity allow for switchins to pivot moves as well as status immunity working against their ability to chip us down across a long game. Hazards with some team support help limit switching, not only for the pivots but also for the dangerous (and often without HDB) wallbreakers they safely allow in. Item removal is a way to strip HDB from key mons and make them more vulnerable to hazard damage, as well as reduce the effectiveness of Rocky Helmet pivots. I was tempted to add status to this list as it does greatly annoy some pivots like tomohawk, zera and equilibra, but regen pivots and natural cure pivots just dont feel as hampered by it. While it is easy to add status to every CAP, maybe its not so fitting this time in a vaccuum.

 

[dex]

Since it seems like we're going for a more offensive route for CAP28, I want to suggest that whatever we create remains fairly bulky. Phasers in the past tend to be fairly bulky like and in past generations. Additionally, even though we are focusing on Teleport, some bulk would be very helpful in combating VoltTurn teams. Therefore, I think Stallbreaker is going to be our best bet going forward for the role that CAP28 takes on teams.

 

[quziel]

Guess I'm gonna have to ask this, but I am wondering what people exactly intend when they are saying Stallbreaker, as the term is perhaps the second most broad term in the game (after pivot). You could make a good argument that Taunt + Wisp Mew, CM Reuniclus, SD Gliscor, Sub NP Hydreigon, Band Hoopa are all stallbreakers. Do we intend for "setup mon that resists status" (Glisc, Reun), "taunt mon that has some non-conditional damage" (Taunt Mew, Taunt Tox Heatran), "mon that just hits dummy hard" (Ice-Z Kyurem, CB Hoopa), or some other interpretation?