CAP 28 - Part 5 - Stat Limits Discussion

[Deck Knight]

I'd like to thank everyone for the high quality of discussion so far. I can see that there are still quite a few different directions that this project can go in, with Physical, Special and Mixed sets all receiving support. Overall, bulk has been determined to be not particularly important, especially on the physical side of things. With this in mind I have decided upon a few preliminary Stat bias limits for us to consider and discuss.

PS: 210
PT: 120
SS: 210
ST: 180
BSR: 350

One thing that does worry me is we didn't talk about speed much, and speed factors directly into Sweepiness stats. At the current limits of 210, a spread with [110/105] Atk/SpA /130 Spe is legal, and that seems like a bit much. I would recommend a limit of 200 PS/SS, which puts the values at [107/102] Atk/Spa / 130 Spe as the maximum legal in that scenario. Once you get in the upper echelons of Speed, the Speed Factor doesn't increase much.

I think 140 is a reasonable "floor" on Sweepiness. Again, Speed plays a major role here, but I think these restraints do prevent "dump stat" territory.

 

[Dogfish44]

I'm going to second the notion that 120 is low for a 'mask' - to use a quick example, I'm currently pondering a set along the lines of 30/138/130/30/185/87 - rounding down it's PT/ST/PS/SS is 119/176/209/55. This is in effect a limit rider.... and yet manually raising SS to 120 puts my BSR at 349, which is... yeah!

I'd also like to see options for both PT and SS increased, though I think BSR feels like it's in the right spot.

SS will inevitably be weaker in terms of damage output for CAP28 - Bug Buzz simply isn't at the power level of Megahorn - and I feel people who want to go Special for entirely valid reasons (fear of burns) will be forced to cut Speed substantially to hit the same benchmarks for damage output - especially as SS is already naturally high to begin with (Since 87 is a fairly common speed benchmark I've seen murmered - PS can go 138/87, whilst SS - which has weaker attacks from our STAB combination - can only reach 131/87).

PT being at 120 is a little bit harsh for anyone who wants to explore the notion of Body Press without dropping base HP into the teens (and whilst I've actually swung towards "actually stupid low HP lets us be adorable with Pain Split or Endeavor or even Leech Life" it's not a major camp by my understanding), and I think in general is fairly restrictive. Something in the range of 135 may give people more options - combined with a BSR 'Mask' I can't see any problems arising there.

edit: In terms of numbers, I'm not hugely fussed on PT, I just think the # is a little low. 130 or 140 would definitely be better masks than 120 on the grounds of 'actually functioning'. SS probably needs to be above the 225.14 mark to allow 140/87 Special spreads and similar - 235 would be a good potential cap to allow for 145/87 (Amamama's identified that as a nice point via the Hippowdon 2HKO), unless that'd be seen as overwhelming - 230 would also be sufficient.

 

[Amamama]

Looking at Pokémon that can threaten or slow down common Pivoting cores, I feel like the proposed BSR Limit is a little too low to afford mixed Spreads that also offer a good Speed Tier and sufficient Bulk.

Almost all Pokémon that viably run Mixed or have mixed potential, have either higher BSR ratings or are frail and fast with a pivoting move.

Name	BSR	Bias	Speed	Pivot	Boost
Dragapult	378	mixedphysical	142	yes	yes
Zeraora	375	Mixedphysical	143	yes	yes
Hydreigon	393	MixedSpecial	98	yes	yes
Kyurem	464	Mixed	95	no	Yes
Aurumoth	389	Mixed	94	no	yes
Kerfluffle	353	Special Mixed Sets	119	yes	yes
Syclant	350	Mixed	121	yes	yes
Aegislash	375 by technicallity	mixed	60	no	yes

Pokémon that have BSR below the proposed level are all heavily biased on one offensive side and mostly reside in higher speed tiers.

Name	BSR	Bias	Speed	Pivot	Boost
Urshifu	335	HeavyPhysical	97	yes	Yes
Jumbao	363	Heavy Special	97	No	No
Volcarona	337	Heavy Special	100	no	yes
Pajantom	336	Heavy Physical	101	no	no
Cyclohm	330	Heavy Special	80	no	no

Pokémon that run viable mixed sets or have offensive potential in both sides without a high BSR, good Bulk or great Speed, rely on Boosting moves or Abilities to help them become a threat.

Name	BSR	Bias	Speed	Pivot	Boost
Kingdra	306	Mixed	85	yes	yes
Seismitoad	281	Mixed	74	no	yes
Toxtricity	265	MixedSpecial	75	yes	yes

I don’t think we need to reach the BSR ratings of the pseudo legendaries to be successful, but I think a slightly higher ceiling somewhere between 350 and 375 should be allowed if we truly want to explore mixed potential, considering the examples above.
Especially since our typing will make it hard to fit boosting moves in a moveset and Pivoting moves are not only pretty bad optics for this project but also don’t fit well with out Hazard weakness.
I think the rest of the current limits looks fine.
I don’t see an issue with having speedy options. If we don’t also give them Pivoting moves later, fast and frail attacker will be hard to pull anyway with our typing.

 

[theotherguytm]

I also think there needs to be some physical bulk availability, so that we can take Knock Offs from Grass switch-ins.
0 Atk Tangrowth Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bug-Dragon (100/70 bulk for simplicity): 94-111 (27.5 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Taking over 1/4 from Tangrowth's Knock is quite a yikes. That makes us about as bulky as Zeraora (88/75, 116.9 PT) on the physical side, with many added weaknesses, including Rocks. To reduce this damage to less than 1/4 would require over 160 PT:
0 Atk Tangrowth Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def 98/98 (163.7 PT): 71-84 (21 - 24.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
So, if I may suggest this, perhaps a limit around 165 PT? Nothing too absurd, just enough to not make us glass on that side.

A few more calcs just to give an idea of the level of bulk (typing is Bug/Dragon in all cases):

Compress

252 Atk Life Orb Smokomodo Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def 98/98: 239-282 (70.9 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Astrolotl Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def 98/98: 186-222 (55.1 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Astrolotl Fire Lash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def 98/98: 117-138 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Astrolotl Fire Lash vs. -1 0 HP / 4 98/98: 175-207 (51.9 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Astrolotl Dragon Claw vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def 98/98: 350-414 (103.8 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 Def 98/98: 184-217 (54.5 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Kyurem Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def 98/98: 204-252 (60.5 - 74.7%) -- approx. 2HKO

So the general rule appears to be: uninvested, we live one hit from strong neutral moves or uninvested SE moves. That seems about right.

As for speed, I think there aren't too many essential benchmarks to hit. So we only need to worry about how much of our PS and SS is going into firepower.

 

[Orig Stall Guy]

PS: 210
PT: 120
SS: 210
ST: 180
BSR: 350

These numbers are awesome and really close to what I had in mine. Love equal SS and PS to give us different ways of apporaching the attack stats. The only things I would request changing is increasing PT to 130 and BSR to 360. Zera is on our list, and Im not sure if we have the physical bulk to come in on it with that PS and the ability to come in on u-turns would be nice. Also, with PS and SS at 210, some extra wiggle room when building spreads would be very appreciated.

Last thing to maybe consider is increasing SS to 215? Not something Im on board with but hear me out. The current BSR Calculator says that 100/100/100 mixed attacking stats has PS 166.85 and SS 176. That is a difference of 10! Plus with Bug Buzz not hitting the same kind of power as Mega Horn, the viability of a mono special attacker set is inherently less. To make these kind of approaches more viable, increasing SS by a bit would be very appreciated.

At this stage I am thinking that 120 will be a reasonable starting point to allow for mono attacking spreads to remain more stat efficient than mixed sets without directly outclassing them in terms of riding the limits.

This is a point of clairfication. To ensure that mono attacking sets don't use one stat as a dump, we are setting a minimum PS or SS to 120? Interesting idea and one Im on board with. For the actual stat, do we round to whatever number is closest to giving 120?

 

[Galvanatic]

I also think there needs to be some physical bulk availability, so that we can take Knock Offs from Grass switch-ins.
0 Atk Tangrowth Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bug-Dragon (100/70 bulk for simplicity): 94-111 (27.5 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Taking over 1/4 from Tangrowth's Knock is quite a yikes. That makes us about as bulky as Zeraora (88/75, 116.9 PT) on the physical side, with many added weaknesses, including Rocks.

Wouldn't losing the boots be more harmful than Knock Off's damage rolls? The Grass switch-ins would still be situational.

While I think the bulk limits are fine, I second the notion of raising our special sweepiness just a little. Bug Buzz and Draco Meteor are the two most likely STAB special moves, but the former's weaker than its physical alternative in Megahorn while the latter is mostly used once. Would 225 be reasonable? This way, special spreads can reach 140/87 in Dogfish's post.

 

[Pipotchi]

PS: 210
PT: 120
SS: 210
ST: 180
BSR: 350

I think PS could be raised a lot higher. Atm its under the level of things like Terrakion, but with infinitely worse STAB combo. This atm makes physical spreads unviable by themselves and the physical atk only work for coverage moves, which forces us to run mixed.

Some wallbreaking offensive mons and our competition include Pajantom (232), Dragapult (231) and we have been discussing Haxorus/Darmanitan-esque spreads in discord which reach 251 and 232. 251 is unnecessary but us maxing out at 122 Atk with 100 Speed is pretty meh so far. Physical doesnt benefit from mixed like Special does
edit: Also i did recalcs, and our bulk limits are 80/80/120 basically, which is surprisingly high considering our discussion? Isnt the focus of this mon kinda rolling back into generic cap territory rather than specialising as a wallbreaker?

tldr: it works for the mixed crowd but if you think pure physical has viable spreads it needs a raise :P

 

[jas61292]

I think PS could be raised a lot higher. Atm its under the level of things like Terrakion, but with infinitely worse STAB combo.

I largely agree with this. While I think I can personally probably get what I want within the limits, the fact is that we have talked a lot about hitting things hard innately. If we want a modicum of speed, achieving that ability to hit hard from the get go would be very difficult. Now, I'm not necessarily saying that we need super high limits that allow for us to be Haxorus or anything, but I think that if we want to be breaking walls, a limit that is a bit higher would be appreciated. I'd say at least boost it to 225, if not more, even if most people might not necessarily use that.

For what its worth, almost all these arguments can also be used to support a boost to Special Sweepiness, which probably also needs it. But I'm far more concerned with the physical side, as that is where the power is needed if we want to break Blissey and others.

 

[Galvanatic]

Some wallbreaking offensive mons and our competition include Pajantom (232), Dragapult (231) and we have been discussing Haxorus/Darmanitan-esque spreads in discord which reach 251 and 232. 251 is unnecessary but us maxing out at 122 Atk with 100 Speed is pretty meh so far. Physical doesnt benefit from mixed like Special does
edit: Also i did recalcs, and our bulk limits are 80/80/120 basically, which is surprisingly high considering our discussion? Isnt the focus of this mon kinda rolling back into generic cap territory rather than specialising as a wallbreaker?

Just tested the calcs and it's true, you can create a powerful pure physical or special wallbreaker, stay above the PS/SS floor and give it decent bulk and Speed. I used Pip's suggestion, 130 Attack, 76 Special Attack and 87 Speed on my end. I suggest we buff the PS/SS floor a little and reduce the bulk in some way. For the former, 140 floor means that if we have 101 Speed, the worse offensive stat must be 81 or higher, 87 Speed makes it 89 or higher, and 120 Speed makes it 76 or higher. For the latter, we could move PT down to 100 and ST to 160 or reduce the BSR limit.

Also seconding raising the PS as well, especially since CAP28 will likely opt for Boots than a Life Orb. 230 sounds reasonable.

 

[Zephyri]

I'm going to take a bit of a different route here and say that i think the PS and SS are a bit too high. In the Concept Assessment, general offensive pressure, especially setup, was discussed heavily and thought of as a possible route here. Along with that, both bug and dragon have some really interesting and nice boosting options that help on both our special and physical sides. However, it feels like the proposed stat limits encourage high offensive stats and would presumably hinder our move options. For reference, the minimum attack needed to OHKO slowking with megahorn at +1 is 96, yet that attack stat doesn't even allow us to reach the proposed PS.

In summary, I feel like the Sweepiness stats should be lowered in order to accommodate for an interesting and varied movepool that would make the best use of both types.

 

[Amamama]

I wouldn’t mind raising the sweepiness levels a bit, as was suggested above.
But if we do that, we should create a speed limit, at least for pure spreads, as a spread like this 80/117/81/62/102/144 or with atk and Spa switched, would be possible within those limits.
And I don’t think having a mon with more bulk and even better offenses than Zera would fit here.
I think Speeds to look at as limits for pure spreads could be 110, 106 and 100.

I also think, that if we raise the limits for sweepiness, the BSR for pure spreads should be lowered, to fit with other pure biased Breakers like Pajantom and Urshifu which would lie between 330 and 340.
At the same time I want to repeat, that I think the BSR limit for mixed spreads should be raised to 360 to come closer to the levels of what successful mixed Attackers look like right now (Hydreigon ca. 393, Dragapult 378, Zeraora 375)

 

[G-Luke]

[

I'm going to take a bit of a different route here and say that i think the PS and SS are a bit too high. In the Concept Assessment, general offensive pressure, especially setup, was discussed heavily and thought of as a possible route here. Along with that, both bug and dragon have some really interesting and nice boosting options that help on both our special and physical sides. However, it feels like the proposed stat limits encourage high offensive stats and would presumably hinder our move options. For reference, the minimum attack needed to OHKO slowking with megahorn at +1 is 96, yet that attack stat doesn't even allow us to reach the proposed PS.

In summary, I feel like the Sweepiness stats should be lowered in order to accommodate for an interesting and varied movepool that would make the best use of both types.

Slowking and Slowbro aren't the only Pokemon in the meta. Hitting those two is important, but we need to actually be able to threaten a bunch of Pokémon outside of that, as I recall pressuring both Toxapex and Equilibra is key. And 96 Atk isn't gonna cut that. In addition, what tools are we too potent with with our current limits? Hydreigon has better stats, has Nasty Plot, and isnt the slightest broken. Haxorus has 147 Atk, 96 Speed and Swords Dance AND Dragon Dance. Its not broken, its not even very good. Not suggesting that we need Haxorus level attacking strats, but I am genuinely confused about what you are talking about

 

[quziel]

Late post, but I feel like BSR should not be lowered, as realistically its just a tax on mixed spreads; if anything the mask could be increased a few points, and the BSR could even be raised if the mask is increased enough. If anything I could see a BSR raise to 355 to accommodate mixed spreads a bit more (trying to 2hko blissey and have an actual SpA stat is difficult). (its worth noting that 117/87 is 175 PS and 186 SS, which really hurts Specially biased sets). As for why raising BSR is needed; the physical attack benchmarks for Blissey and Slowking (117 and 120) are not exactly low, and hitting that while also getting a reasonable SpA stat and workable bulk is almost possible in the current limits, but not quite possible. A small raise of even 3-5 points would allow that.

Raise BSR to 350 => 355
Raise Mask from 120 => 130

or

Raise BSR to 350 => 355
Raise Mask from 120 => 140

or

Raise BSR to 350 => 360
Raise Mask from 120 => 140

Also seconding calls for a raise in the individual PS and SS limits; they're needed to really let the like proper hard hitting spreads work, and despite a lot of people working with 80s speed spreads, we should open the choice to go faster while hitting benchmarks (again, 120 attack is big).

 

[Zephyri]

Slowking and Slowbro aren't the only Pokemon in the meta. Hitting those two is important, but we need to actually be able to threaten a bunch of Pokémon outside of that, as I recall pressuring both Toxapex and Equilibra is key. And 96 Atk isn't gonna cut that. In addition, what tools are we too potent with with our current limits? Hydreigon has better stats, has Nasty Plot, and isnt the slightest broken. Haxorus has 147 Atk, 96 Speed and Swords Dance AND Dragon Dance. Its not broken, its not even very good. Not suggesting that we need Haxorus level attacking strats, but I am genuinely confused about what you are talking about

G-Luke, what I mean to say is that there's a high chance that we'd have to restrict our movepool with the limits at present, and they encourage very high attacking stats. I might be a bit misinformed here, but i don't think we have even a slight chance of getting QD if our SpA is over 120. And boosting moves like QD and DD are very pro-concept for this mon, and i'd hate to see this mon miss out on coverage or pro-concept STAB moves just because we gave it a huge attacking stat. This might have just been a misconception on my part though, so feel free to correct me.

 

[MrDollSteak]

I'd like to thank everyone that's participated. There's been great discussion on the initial stat limits and some great argument in favour of changes. It's been difficult to narrow down everyone's perspectives since there are a lot of differing opinions about the direction to take CAP 28 in but here are your final limits.

PS: 220
SS: 225
PT: 120
ST: 180
Minimum PS or SS Mask: 140
Total BSR: 350

Maximum Speed Stat: 144

I'd like to summarise the changes that have been made as well as my explanations for them.

The first change was the most intuitive and that was the increase of the PS and SS Mask. 120 undershot where I was hoping, and allowed for purely Physical or Special sets to maximise their tankiness as well as single sweepiness without significant penalties. 140 as a mask allows for pure Physical and Special sets to subsequently choose between hitting their maximum offensive or defensive benchmarks, while still allowing for investment in both.

Next Both PS and SS have seen an increase due to effective arguments that they slightly undershot some key offensive benchmarks we may want to hit against some of our most important pivots, and subsequently incentivised running more bulk, which goes slightly against where our previous discussion went. As many have pointed out, although having equal PS and SS limits seems intuitive, Special spreads are not actually able to reach the same benchmarks as Physical spreads due to the calculations. Factoring in the fact that most special moves are also slightly weaker overall, adding an additional 5 to the SS limit allows special sets to reach the appropriate benchmarks.

I decided against raising the PT and the BSR limits even though there were some arguments for them, because I believe that doing so would once again encourage pure Physical or Special spreads to hit the other stat limits without trade offs. While maintaining the BSR of 350 will still affect mixed spreads more than the purely Physical or Specially spreads, I believe that raising the BSR limit will not actually solve this problem, but allow pure Physical or Special spreads to become even more efficient.

As for our maximum Speed limit, I've set it at 144 because higher stats will not change the Sweepiness benchmarks. While I initially decided upon a lower limit, because it was something that I didn't specifically raise in discussion questions I don't think that it would be fair to throw in a number that might disrupt some preliminary spreads.

 

[Mx]

These limits looks all good to me, so I don't have any objections.