CAP 29 - Part 3 - Concept Assessment 2

[spoo]

Gonna bring something up myself before responding to the last question-
Now that we've identified our role, I think it's worth further analyzing how we're expected to perform in it, and what the role really means for us. We know some general strengths and weaknesses about the ability itself but our notions of Color Change could definitely shift when we view it in the context of our role. A setup sweeper with CC is likely to function vastly differently from a regular setup mon, and I'm interested in exploring what those differences are and if we'll need any specific accommodations/compensations to account for them. For what it's worth, I think the majority of this discussion will take place within the individual stages––eg, we'll probably need a some kind of boost to our offenses to compensate for unreliable stabs, and that's a conversation better suited for the specific stage. I thought it was at least worth bringing up here though, just to ask if there's any information still left to uncover about how we might perform in our role now that we know what the role itself is.

Onto birk's last question, I've separated his suggestions for secondary roles into the ones I think are feasible and the ones I think aren't worth it

hazards setting, hazard control, cleric, and item manipulation, priority user, wall, defensive pivot, and potential advantages serving on weather

These all seem within the realm of possibility to me––clefable can run both bulky setup or any of the first four roles, mega scizor is a great bulky setup mon with priority, and the lion's share of bulky setup sweepers in the game can function as a defensive pivot when needed to (clefable and sciz also fit this as well). Being useful on weather teams is a slight reach, but those builds often have difficulty dealing with opposing weather-boosted attacks (cinderace v sun matchup) so I think it's at least possible that we can have some kind of defensive utility on specific weather teams given that CC lets us resist fire/water spam

wallbreaker, offensive pivot, choiced user, boost remover, and potential advantages serving on Trick Room.

Wallbreaker is probably the most realistic out of these roles, maybe something in the style of magearna, but I don't really love our odds with it. Being an offensive pivot seems very difficult given our projected build/role but if we get a very specific set of tools in the other stages then I suppose it's possible as well. Being a choiced user also falls in that same category of "doesn't really fit with where we're headed at all, but it could still happen, I guess." As for the last two, they're roles that are already beyond niche; it's a big ask to differentiate ourselves from God boost remover hazehawk, and I don't think that TR could ever fit us unless we're offering something exceptional (note that I didn’t mention CAP29's speed here––assuming any level of speed this early in the process is a dangerous leap to make). I guess the main takeaway here is that pretty much every role is possible in theory, but there's massive variance in how likely it is for their conditions to be met and in how much they'd actually help us wrt to viability and concept fulfillment
As an aside, I don't think we should already be saying that we can't ever be offensive because we don't have stab. Choiced users and wallbreakers will often not stay in for more than 1-2 turns, be brought in safely via a pivoting move, and move before their opponent, so it's very possible that it won't be a massive crippling issue for these builds (this isn't me advocating for a wallbreaker or for a fast stat spread or anything, just a brief rebuttal of the whole "no stab" point)

 

[Birkal]

I'm going to literally parrot 2spoopy4u's post above and morph it into another question. We chatted about it on Discord (as he is on the TLT), and I wanted to make sure everyone felt the floor was sufficiently open for this question. As always, feel free to respond to Question #16, this question, any previous question, or ask your own. At this point, the floor is totally open (except for polljumping, of course). If we go past the 24 hour warning, so be it.

17) A setup sweeper with CC is likely to function vastly differently from a regular setup mon, and we should explore what those differences are and if we'll need any specific accommodations/compensations to account for them. What inherent similarities will CAP29 with Color Change have with other setup mons? What inherent differences will CAP29 with Color Change display in relation to other setup mons? Will we need to make any specific accommodations to account for those differences?​

Thanks for the question, spoo! I dig it.

 

[Amamama]

17) A setup sweeper with CC is likely to function vastly differently from a regular setup mon, and we should explore what those differences are and if we'll need any specific accommodations/compensations to account for them. What inherent similarities will CAP29 with Color Change have with other setup mons? What inherent differences will CAP29 with Color Change display in relation to other setup mons? Will we need to make any specific accommodations to account for those differences?

I think there will be a lot of similarities in how and when it uses its set up options.
Usually bulky set up mons look for opportunities to set up, once checks have been worn down and when they can leverage their typing and stats to wall the opposing mon or take advantage of low pressure turns (opponent using recovery or utility of some sort).
Often they’ll want to set up twice or more, to really become an offensive threat, that can tear down walls, since they usually have lower offensive power than more aggressive sweepers. To do that they again leverage their type and bulk and mostly resort to recovery to stay healthy long enough to get a few boosts.
Other than more offensive sweepers they tend to rely more on good overall coverage or additional utility in the moves they use, instead of using the most powerful STAB moves. Although often that’s a matter of consistency vs. immediate power.

The key difference for CAP 29 will be, that it is not guaranteed to keep its Defensive Typing for long.
How that affects its matchups, will largely be determined by the situations the player chooses to bring it in and start to set up.
The best case is a scenario, where 29 starts walling its best check on the opposing team entirely by turn three, which might play something like this:

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Turn 1: 29 gets in for free and Forces a switch, using the time to set up or crippling/damaging the switch in​

Turn 2: The opponent brings in an offensive check and 29 gets hit SE, while setting up or recovering;​

Turn 3: Resist the Opponents STABs and be Neutral to Coverage, which leads to forcing the opponent Out or them trying to reset their advantage and gives time to set up again or recover.​

Turn 4: The Opponent might have regained their typing advantage, but by this time the boosts will probably make it impossible for it to get past 29.​

I am not sure how often 29 will get into such a scenario though. There might be situations where it’s type changing will result in very unfavorable matchups, which is something that a lot of bulky set up mons with consistently great defensive typings and sometimes additional help from great abilities rarely encounter.
Especially 29 will have a harder time abusing passive play that relies on status, since it will not be able to keep status immunities just through its typing or ability.
Additionally it’s going to be harder to exert enough initial pressure on the opponent to force reactive play, that can be abused to set up, due to the unreliability of our STAB options.
This means 29 might get less opportunities to set up and will have less time to do so.

 

[Legitimate Username]

Sounds like it's too late to alter the course of the direction we'd be going in, but at least fundamentally for me, the question of pivot vs. setup is simply a one of ease and practicality vs. ambition. It's easier to mitigate the negative effects of Color Change if we design something meant to switch in and out frequently so as to diminish the negative impact it has, however, it'd be also be diminishing the total amount we'd actually be interacting with the ability in the first place and the deeper impacts it can have on us. Staying in forces us to take more of that downside and offer more control to the opponent, with a potentially greater challenge involved in designing something that can be rewarded by doing so or at least not too much of a sitting duck that will bend to the whims of the opponent.

I don't have a stance on which is the better way to go, I can easily see the pros and cons in both directions and the different takes they offer on exploring the ideas. But personally I'm glad that the direction seems to be focused on staying in and setting up, as regardless of whether or not it's more likely or more feasible to make this work, it would certainly be a much more interesting way to explore Color Change despite the greater risks. Interacting maximally with the ability is personally a lot more interesting to me than hardcore committing to mitigating its impact on a match.

Regarding Birkal's question, while I haven't really had the time to think much about it, I do think that being able to expect to potentially consistently forced to eat super effective damage means that having reliable recovery could be a very important factor, and that our initial typing will matter a lot on how it affects the chain of taken attacks that we'll likely end up on. Eating strong hits is going to be an unfortunate inevitability of the ability and having the means to help potentially shrug them off will potentially be very important to not crumbling and folding with too much ease. Most bulky sweepers I can think of off the top of my head across different metagame histories (Clefable, Jirachi, Magearna) have great defensive typing that they can take massive advantage of, having the option to set up on a wide variety of targets that can only hit them neutrally at best.

 

[Birkal]

Thank you everyone for your contributions to both Concept Assessment threads. The 196 posts that we have shared across these two threads has been the most active a concept assessment stage has been since the DPP days! I am proud of the topics we've broached and the questions we've tackled. Let me list a summary of our discussions from across these two threads. As a reminder, this is intended to be the cumulation of our discussions, not something to cling to as law. We may change our minds in the future about how CAP29 should function with Color Change as our knowledge and understanding of this mon evolves. Regardless, here are the generalizations we can make about CAP29 at this time:

Generalizations about CAP29:
Note: These are a list of guidelines about CAP29, not rules. This is the cumulation of the intelligent community consensus from past and current threads. Our opinions as a community may change and differ on some of these specific points. We are not beholden to anything specifically on this list.

• We will treat all ability-shifting moves (e.g. Skill Swap and Entrainment) as banned. Do not debate the use of them for CAP29, nor vote in the upcoming stages with the presumption that they will be allowed. SHSP, the Movepool Leader, may re-open discussion of these moves at a later date, depending on how the rest of CAP29 is built. There is also some nuance between Skill Swap and Entrainment that favors the latter, that we also might consider in the future. But for now, they are considered detrimental to the concept and our communal creation of this CAP; please do not vote in future stages presuming these moves will be allowed.
• Our current operating view is that CAP29 is supposed to work with Color Change, as opposed to in spite of, because anything else would be us circumventing the concept. It may be necessary to work in spite of Color Change in some cases, but ultimately, it's our goal to make sure that CAP29 can optimally take advantage of the unique opportunities Color Change can provide competitively.
• We will treat CAP29 as having solely Color Change as its only ability. We won't presume that it has a flavor ability (NCA) that it can choose over Color Change to circumvent the negatives of this ability. That being said, it is still our goal to make sure that Color Change CAP29 is an appealing option in the teambuilder. We should be asking the question: "Are we working with Color Change enough that it would hypothetically be chosen over NCA?" Tadasuke, the Ability Leader, may re-open discussion of a secondary ability at a later date, depending on how the rest of CAP29 is built.
• This is a compiled list of mons (B- Tier and up) that have at least one set that Color Change has a natural advantage against:

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• This is a compiled list of mons (B- Tier and up) that have at least one set that Color Change has a neutral match-up against:

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• This is a compiled list of mons (B- Tier and up) that have at least one set that Color Change has a natural disadvantage against:

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• In general, we will try to lean into creating strong match-ups against the mons Color Change already has a natural advantage against. We may still look for ways to change some of our Color Change natural disadvantages into neutral or positive match-ups through future stages. But a goal of ours is to give CAP29 the correct tools to at least force out the mons that Color Change already excels against naturally.
• The goal for CAP29's primary role will be to perform as a bulky set-up sweeper in the CAP metagame. How we define bulk within the context of CAP29 and Color Change will be covered during the stat and moveset stages. Furthermore, our set-up move(s) could potentially boost offenses, defenses, or both simultaneously; nothing is currently decided. Finally, CAP29 is not limited to having set-up sweeping being its only role, and any other roles that CAP29 possess in the metagame should not be considered a 'failure' to the project. Color Change is full of unknowns, so it's difficult to predict how exactly CAP29 will even function in the metagame at this point in time. But for now, we can focus on the role of a bulky set-up sweeper and build from there.

At this point, we'll be looking to quziel to lead us through Typing Discussion for CAP29. I'll see you there!