CAP 29 - Part 7 - Threats Discussion

[shnowshner]

We don't have Electric Coverage in our defining moves. What we do have is Ice Beam. While it doesn't help us with the two Hazers, it does help us with Tapu Fini, Mandibuzz, and Tornadus-T found later on in your post. Ice Beam can also be used to pressure out many other threats such as Rillaboom, Venusaur, and Nidoking, as well as every relevant non-Astrolotl Dragon.

Yeah, that's the issue I was trying to address in response to dex's question. We don't have either in defining/optional so our ability to have counterplay against Hazers can't be assured unless we were to amend which moves we can or likely will have access to (something I'm not too keen on either). Ice Beam will help punish Hawk at least but against Pex we'd either need to somehow OHKO, 2HKO on the switch, or pray that we flinch through with Dark Pulse in order to negate stat drops. Which is to say that I don't think Haze is something we can work around consistently given what we know about CAP29.

 

[quziel]

I am very conflicted when it comes to checks and counters. I am of the view that there is a lot still up in the air, specifically in relation to our Bulk/Power ratio, and as such I think we should have a very short counters list, and a less short but still not long checks list.

I believe we should just stake out counters with Gastrodon, which has Earth Power, isn't hit hard by many of our prospective coverage moves, and can Toxic us for bonus counterplay. Its a rising mon, implies some very clear things about CAP 29, and I think it is an excellent representative for this category. On the other end of counters I believe that Tyranitar is likely to be a fairly good answer, specifically the bulkier spread that sees more use nowadays. Again, it carries Earthquake and Toxic, which will force us into a bad position no matter what. Between these two examples I think we define a lot about this mon.

In terms of checks, I'd like to list out Colossoil, Garchomp, Arghonaut, Heatran, and Toxapex as pokemon that will probably answer us very well, but I don't want listed as full Counters, as doing so will cut a lot of options for us. These pokemon being listed as checks still gives us a fair bit of leeway whilst still implying a fair bit about CAP 29 as a whole.

 

[spoo]

Quickly posting to state my agreement with quziel's post above me. Gastrodon is probably the hardest counter that cap29 could have; the absolute worst that could happen to gastro is getting poisoned by sludge bomb, but it should be capable of 1v1ing cap29 in any given situation, especially since both physically and specially defensive gastrodon sets exist to deal with both coil and calm mind. Tyranitar is also an excellent counter, and even if it's not running earthquake, it'll still carry a different move to change our typing and threaten to status us afterwards. Tyranitar doesn't particularly enjoy being statused + it has no reliable recovery, so ultimately it's not as solid as gastrodon but I do still believe it checks enough boxes to be listed as a counter. I could see arghonaut and toxapex being listed as counters but I worry that doing so removes the freedom to choose electric coverage in later stages, so I think it's okay as a check right now. As for the rest of quziel's proposed checks, I fully agree with them for the same reasoning he provided, and would only add landorus-t as its scarf sets will outspeed us no matter what, it has an especially strong earthquake, and it's capable of manipulating us with u-turn if it needs to.

To comment on some other checks and counters that were discussed- blissey is a special kind of evil for CM sets to deal with, but it fears coil sets which we have preserved as a possibility. I'd be okay with omitting it or just listing it as "CM sets only" in the c&c list. Swampert does the same thing as gastro except it doesn't have reliable recovery, but ultimately I think that despite its ability to check us on paper, it's just not necessary to add here as it wouldn't meaningfully affect much and it's not that relevant to begin with. You could keep adding more ground types like excadrill, hippowdon, or nidoking, but I feel at some point it really is just unnecessary and redundant; having them listed does not really imply anything more about cap29 than if they were absent, so I'm mostly indifferent/leaning negative on them. Hazehawk is a bit annoying for us to deal with but it can't really kill us, the most it does is inefficiently cycle its moves (if it's even running aura sphere at all) and it's probably a battle of pp or hax at that point, and I feel we're favored in that arena anyways. Melmetal is another case where it probably beats us on paper with eq->toxic shenanigans, so I'm not necessarily against adding it to checks, just sorta indifferent about it because it's potentially one of the more restricting mons to add.

 

[Birkal]

Putting this list together was particularly tricky, as there is still quite a bit we don't know about CAP29 just yet. Every mon that we add to our checks list, and especially our counters list, will force CAP29 into a smaller box during our Stat Limits stage. Therefore, I'm a big fan of keeping both of these lists relatively short. However, please note that just because these lists are small, doesn't mean CAP29 isn't going to be checked by a lot of mons. It absolutely is; between offensive pivoting moves (U-turn and Volt Switch), poison, paralysis, Haze, and Taunt, there are a lot of mons that can seriously impede CAP29. This list also doesn't include very strong offensive Pokemon like Melmetal and Dragapult that will likely check us. I just don't feel particularly compelled to limit CAP29 at this point in the process. The purpose of the following lists is to serve as a baseline for how the stats stages for CAP29 will play out, not about predicting what will check/counter CAP29.

With that all said, let me start by presenting a preliminary draft of our checks and counters list. The next 24 hours are useful for us to discuss what should be removed or added from this list. Take a look:

Counters

Gastrodon​

Blissey (Only against CM sets)​

This set of counters serve as a nice outer limits of what CAP29 should be stopped by stats-wise. Gastrodon can run both specially defensive and physically defensive sets, and building our CMand potential Coil sets off of these respectively feels like a good starting point. It feels like the perfect mon for us to list as a primary counter, as it can come in on a wide variety of threats and always threaten with SE damage + Toxic, so kudos to the team that helped develop this idea. Blissey is an obvious ceiling for the CM sets, as being able to push past Blissey on the special side would be a pretty oppressive force in the metagame.

Otherwise, listing anything else here is going to limit CAP29 in some significant ways. Adding Toxapex and/or Arghonaut would limit the idea of Electric-type coverage. Adding Garchomp would limit our speed, while adding Dragapult would limit our offensive stats. It felt better to leave this list more wide open to give stat spread submitters maximum flexibility. Gastrodon is also such a fantastic choice that we can find out a lot about CAP29 just from our interaction with this mon in particular. That being said, I am still very open to adding a few more Pokemon to this list. If you have opinions on what should definitely be a counter, even for just a Coil set or just a CM set, sound off in this thread.

Next, let's review the currently proposed checks:

Checks

Tyranitar​

Colossoil​

Garchomp​

Arghonaut​

Toxapex​

Heatran (Defensive)​

Landorus-T (Scarf)​

Tyranitar has enough bulk to warrant surviving a hit from CAP29, while also threatening C&C by changing its type and then landing Toxic. Colossoil and Landorus-T are both a very good type match-up against CAP29 and can U-turn out. Garchomp has access to SD, Scale Shot, and EQ, which can all make quick work against CAP29. Arghonaut and Toxapex may not be reliable counters based on what coverage we decide, but they certainly will threaten CAP29 by making our boosts irrelevant. Heatran can trap CAP29, and also has a multitude of tools that CAP29 doesn't fare well against.

Omissions

Excadrill - Gastrodon fills relatively the same niche defensively for the purposes of this list.
Hippowdon - Gastrodon fills relatively the same niche defensively for the purposes of this list.
Swampert - Gastrodon fills relatively the same niche defensively for the purposes of this list.
Crucibelle - It certainly threatens us with U-turn, but it feels a little too restrictive and a little too irrelevant to put on a checks list at this time.
Equillibra - It needs to run a specific set to attempt to win against CAP29, and even then can't always come out on top against CM.
Krilowatt - It needs to run a suboptimal set to chain SE moves, and could potentially restrict our speed stat.
Dragapult - Hates switching in on CM and losing to a SE move. Forcing CAP29 to lose to this at +1 feels restrictive.
Mandibuzz - Offensive pivoting moves will be considered via Landorus-T and Colossoil.
Rillaboom - Offensive pivoting moves will be considered via Landorus-T and Colossoil.
Corviknight - Offensive pivoting moves will be considered via Landorus-T and Colossoil.
Electric-type coverage will be discussed during Moveset Submissions. Doesn't feel relevant to this discussion just yet.
Haze - Toxapex is a check already, and stopping Prankster Haze Tomohawk is futile.

And with that, I'd like to open the floor for at least 24 more hours of discussion. This can be about any of the lists posted in this thread, including our Switch-Ins list, Pressure list, and the list presented in this post. This is all still a draft, and I am very open to moving some of these around. To be frank, it felt jarring to come to the realization that our Counters might be best left with a minimalist base of (essentially) solely Gastrodon to allow maximum flexibility during the stat stages. But if y'all think that is too open, let me know and I'd be happy to bump up a few of our checks to the status of counter. Remember, we could also add some more counters that are specifically for CM sets and Coil sets.

Keep the discussion going. We're nearly there!

 

[spoo]

I think this list is in an excellent spot right now. The proposed checks and counters give a lot of information about how cap29 should function while still affording stat submitters plenty of freedom, and I think this lines up perfectly with the goal of this stage. The "counters" list is admittedly quite small, and if anything from "checks" were to be added then I'd support tyranitar the most––its special bulk is so massive that it only really secondary effects from CM sets, and is still able to take on knock+gunk shot from coil sets despite its weaker physical side––however, even just gastrodon + blissey gives us plenty to work with, and tyranitar doesn't quite measure up to those two as a counter, so I'll be very happy no matter the direction this list takes before being finalized.

 

[Birkal]

And just like that, we're done! Thanks to everyone who contributed to this discussion. There's a lot to unpack with how a Color Change Pokemon will work in the CAP metagame, but I feel confident in what we've selected. Let's take a final look at the summation of our hard work in this thread:

Switch-Ins for CAP29

Slowking​

Slowbro​

Slowking-Galar (AV)​

Ferrothorn​

Clefable (Utility)​

Rillaboom (CB)​

Mandibuzz​

Zeraora​

CAP29 Pressures with Sludge Bomb (Poison-type Moves)

Rillaboom (SD)​

Tangrowth​

Jumbao​

Tapu Lele​

Tapu Koko​

Tapu Fini​

Kerfluffle​

Clefable (CM)​

CAP29 Pressures with Dark Pulse (Dark-type Moves)

Aegislash (Offensive)​

Dragapult​

Pajantom​

Latios​

Victini​

Kartana​

Difficulty Checking CAP29

Corviknight (Can't check, but can U-turn out)​

Mandibuzz (Can't check, but can U-turn out)​

Regieleki (Can't check, but can Volt Switch out)​

Cyclohm (No Toxic)​

Suicune​

Counters to CAP29

Gastrodon​

Blissey (Only against CM sets)​

Checks to CAP29

Tyranitar​

Colossoil​

Garchomp​

Arghonaut​

Toxapex​

Heatran (Defensive)​

Landorus-T (Scarf)​

Please note that these contain information based on what we know about CAP29 right now with our ability and typing. These lists will absolutely change in the near future as we give CAP29 stats and a competitive movepool. Our counters list in particular was left very narrow in order to allow our stat spread submitters maximum flexibility in how they plan their sets (how bulky, how offensive, and how speedy). That list will grow significantly as CAP29 is given stats and limited in its coverage options. But for now, Gastrodon in particular can serve as a perfect counter for calculations against special CAP29 sets (CM) and optional physical ones (Coil), which will bring many more Pokemon into the fold of countering CAP29.

Now let's look towards 2spoopy4u and Stat Limits! Thank you all once more for your continued participation.