Okay, after reading some of the previous posts, I'm supporting Synthesis/Morning Sun/Moonlight and Swallow, but am against Recover (or variants). In Rain, Mollux (Dry Skin variants at least) recover 1/8th HP each turn. Plus leftovers. And possibly Aqua Ring (I did mention that before). Plus recover? That's nearly 70% HP recovered every turn. Plus, unlike Synthesis or variants, Recover can have 16PP as opposed to 8PP. The sun-boosted recovery moves + Dry Skin restore 3/8th HP in rain; in Sun Mollux can recover 2/3 HP and will lose 1/8th which in total is I was never good with fractions. Alternatively, Mollux could run Illuminate if it didn't want the detrimental effects of Dry Skin. Did any of that make sense? Basically it gives Mollux another reason to play in sun rather than rain. Also, being the non-instant recovery move that it is, I wanna propose Wish. If I've done my calculations right, it allows 252HP Mollux to recover 197HP (or pass it to another Pokemon). Don't really know if that's a significant amount to pass but I just thought I'd put it out there.
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CAP 14 CAP 3 - Part 11 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion
- Thread starter capefeather
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Checking=/=Threatening=Countering
Checking means only that if it comes in we may have to adapt our current playstyle. Countering and threatening means putting into harms way. Meaning that something we chose to check mollux isn't necessarily meant to ohko or even 2ohko. Its meant to make mollux think twice on its next move. its counters and threats are meant to counter Mollux's setup and ohko. All of that said, if this cap is to have any amount of life in the metagame with it current stat spread it should be able to give its checks something to be frightened of. ALLOW cosmic power so that it forces the opponent to wonder which defensive set is it running. ALLOW Magnetrise to allow a moment to "pivot" and gain some momentum to set up since losing its ground weakness for a few turns is not kin to ridding itself of its typing's downfalls altogether.
And for God sake's i will be another of many voices to speak up in the defense of mollux, so far we have played too conservatively in this cap for whatever reason and have already made choices we must deal with but let's move forward with some momentum and give this cap a little panache and allow it to kick some ou ass without becoming fodder to everything outside of the thimble of a niche we have put it in.
Checking means only that if it comes in we may have to adapt our current playstyle. Countering and threatening means putting into harms way. Meaning that something we chose to check mollux isn't necessarily meant to ohko or even 2ohko. Its meant to make mollux think twice on its next move. its counters and threats are meant to counter Mollux's setup and ohko. All of that said, if this cap is to have any amount of life in the metagame with it current stat spread it should be able to give its checks something to be frightened of. ALLOW cosmic power so that it forces the opponent to wonder which defensive set is it running. ALLOW Magnetrise to allow a moment to "pivot" and gain some momentum to set up since losing its ground weakness for a few turns is not kin to ridding itself of its typing's downfalls altogether.
And for God sake's i will be another of many voices to speak up in the defense of mollux, so far we have played too conservatively in this cap for whatever reason and have already made choices we must deal with but let's move forward with some momentum and give this cap a little panache and allow it to kick some ou ass without becoming fodder to everything outside of the thimble of a niche we have put it in.
I would suggest to allow Glare, although it is a paralyzing move. Glare enables Mollux to paralyze in-switching threats. This includes Dugtrio, Gliscor and other Ground types which are immune against TWave (So does another Poison type: Arbok.) Mollux' is a snail and its peed is not really good, but it is adequate after it has paralyed his opponent. Just imagine it brightens its light to glare its opponent. It would fit into its lava lamp concept. Maybe we make it to an event move - so that only Illuminate Mollux has access to Glare - so that Glare is NOT overpowered, because it costs Mollux Water immunity.
Overmore I like kjt's suggestion: Growth, because it makes Mollux also - but not only - usable in Sun. (even in Rain it is still a good move).But I am against Calm Mind and Nasty Plot because these moves seem to be overpowered.
Overmore I like kjt's suggestion: Growth, because it makes Mollux also - but not only - usable in Sun. (even in Rain it is still a good move).But I am against Calm Mind and Nasty Plot because these moves seem to be overpowered.
Something unconventionell mollux could make use of is whirlpool. Combined with some of its key traits such as dry skin recovery and immunity to damaging status, mollux could easily use it to stall poisoned bulky waters out.
I also support recovery in form of morning sun and its equivalents, as it somehow balances rain and sun mollux out and gives it a bit of diversity which i heavily miss right now.
This doesn't mean im strictly against recover. Actually i've always seen cap3 as a pokemon that naturally learns recover considering its presumable playstyle and the fact that apperently every snail in the game gets it. It's just, that morning sun's additional effect fits very well in the concept (provided its availible with illuminate).
Other moves in this discussion which i see being very suitable for cap3 are glare, trick and (toxic) spikes.
I also support recovery in form of morning sun and its equivalents, as it somehow balances rain and sun mollux out and gives it a bit of diversity which i heavily miss right now.
This doesn't mean im strictly against recover. Actually i've always seen cap3 as a pokemon that naturally learns recover considering its presumable playstyle and the fact that apperently every snail in the game gets it. It's just, that morning sun's additional effect fits very well in the concept (provided its availible with illuminate).
Other moves in this discussion which i see being very suitable for cap3 are glare, trick and (toxic) spikes.
Toxic Spikes is the perfect way to make Poison-type an important part of Mollux, supporting the team and making Venoshock viable. At first I thought Mollux would be fine with just Toxic Spikes, but Rising_Dusk completely changed my mind. Mollux would be outclassed by Tentacruel as a Toxic Spiker without them, so I think Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin and Toxic Spikes should be allowed.
Soak sounds like an awesome gimmick to me, I'd love to see it allowed.
I think Magnet Rise should be disallowed. It just works against Pokémons that are supposed to deal with Mollux.
Morning Sun/Moonlight would make Mollux more usable in Sun, and it shouldn't have more than Wish and Aqua Ring in rain. So I think Wish, Aqua Ring and Morning Sun/Moonlight should be allowed, but Recover should be disallowed.
Trick is a nice move to make Choice sets viable (specially with Eruption in the Sun) and I can't find a reason to disallow it, so I think it should be allowed.
Soak sounds like an awesome gimmick to me, I'd love to see it allowed.
I think Magnet Rise should be disallowed. It just works against Pokémons that are supposed to deal with Mollux.
Morning Sun/Moonlight would make Mollux more usable in Sun, and it shouldn't have more than Wish and Aqua Ring in rain. So I think Wish, Aqua Ring and Morning Sun/Moonlight should be allowed, but Recover should be disallowed.
Trick is a nice move to make Choice sets viable (specially with Eruption in the Sun) and I can't find a reason to disallow it, so I think it should be allowed.
Posting more of a question than a fully fledged argument due to time, but why is U-Turn disallowed, but Volt Switch isn't even mentioned?
To me, I would think Volt Switch would be legitimate on this thing. While boosting VolTurn is never a popular thing (it's already powerful enough as a core), having access to Volt Switch provides the electric coverage we were aiming for in Attacking Moves, while not making it ridiculously overpowered in that regard (it's weaker than Thunder/Bolt). It would also make it easier for Mollux to do its job in countering Rain teams, as it would be far less likely to be dealing with earthquakes and Stone Edges when it could switch out a bit easier.
I assume Volt Switch is fitting in this discussion, since Deck mentioned U-Turn in his list and Volt Switch is basically the electric equivalent.
I'll also throw in support for Stealth Rock and Recover here, as SR wouldn't really give Mollux much extra use (nothing is used nowadays solely for SR. It's more of a bonus than something you look for in a Pokemon) and even with Mollux's stat spread, Recover isn't going to turn it into anything near a wanted defensive wall. Rain already has access to specially defensive Tentacruel and Jellicent and Ferrothorn, and if need be physically defensive Cloyster (lol non-SS Cloyster) can act as a good wall. Even Starmie has Recover and better coverage for the role of Bulky Attacker, making Mollux outclassed in any role it could possibly gain from Recover. Mollux isn't going to be made better by having recover, period. It'd be like SubRoost Zapdos in Gen V; good on paper, but that recovery isn't making it top-tier OU material any time soon.
Spikes and Toxic Spikes should be allowed, as frankly with it would make Mollux have some viable role (as a more offensive variant of Tentacruel in rain), while not really severely denting it's counters (Heatran laughs at Toxic Spikes). Spikes is more of a "why not?" decision, as frankly Ferrothorn is still going to be better than Mollux at Spiking.
To me, I would think Volt Switch would be legitimate on this thing. While boosting VolTurn is never a popular thing (it's already powerful enough as a core), having access to Volt Switch provides the electric coverage we were aiming for in Attacking Moves, while not making it ridiculously overpowered in that regard (it's weaker than Thunder/Bolt). It would also make it easier for Mollux to do its job in countering Rain teams, as it would be far less likely to be dealing with earthquakes and Stone Edges when it could switch out a bit easier.
I assume Volt Switch is fitting in this discussion, since Deck mentioned U-Turn in his list and Volt Switch is basically the electric equivalent.
I'll also throw in support for Stealth Rock and Recover here, as SR wouldn't really give Mollux much extra use (nothing is used nowadays solely for SR. It's more of a bonus than something you look for in a Pokemon) and even with Mollux's stat spread, Recover isn't going to turn it into anything near a wanted defensive wall. Rain already has access to specially defensive Tentacruel and Jellicent and Ferrothorn, and if need be physically defensive Cloyster (lol non-SS Cloyster) can act as a good wall. Even Starmie has Recover and better coverage for the role of Bulky Attacker, making Mollux outclassed in any role it could possibly gain from Recover. Mollux isn't going to be made better by having recover, period. It'd be like SubRoost Zapdos in Gen V; good on paper, but that recovery isn't making it top-tier OU material any time soon.
Spikes and Toxic Spikes should be allowed, as frankly with it would make Mollux have some viable role (as a more offensive variant of Tentacruel in rain), while not really severely denting it's counters (Heatran laughs at Toxic Spikes). Spikes is more of a "why not?" decision, as frankly Ferrothorn is still going to be better than Mollux at Spiking.
Volt Switch was covered in the Attacking Moves discussion (And subsequently ruled as disallowed), whereas with such a pitiful Att stat the key reason for choosing U-Turn on CAP3 would be for scouting, qualifying it as a non-attacking move.
Updates on list:
Most of the initial moves have been moved from Pending to allowed. Light Screen and Reflect have been moved to Disallowed, Magnet Rise is the only thing that remains. Trick / Switcheroo has been moved to allowed.
There are new set of pending moves up. +2 Spe boosters, Calm Mind, Disable, Encore, Skill Swap, Recover, Ingrain, and Heal Bell.
Most of the initial moves have been moved from Pending to allowed. Light Screen and Reflect have been moved to Disallowed, Magnet Rise is the only thing that remains. Trick / Switcheroo has been moved to allowed.
There are new set of pending moves up. +2 Spe boosters, Calm Mind, Disable, Encore, Skill Swap, Recover, Ingrain, and Heal Bell.
To be quite honest I don't really care much about most of the stuff on the list; nearly all of it isn't broken and most of it won't be added anyway. It's nice to have a decent pool to choose from, and the list is pretty good round about now.
However, I want to vouch for two different sets of moves in particular. The first is the allowing of Reflect and Light Screen. I'd really like to see how this thing can use dual screens - true, it doesn't directly play off the typing that much (but really, does anything on this list?), but bear with me. Most OU dual screeners are weak to Pursuit - the only ones that aren't are Virizion, Jirachi (both of whom are pretty weak offensively) and Magnezone. Magnezone is probably the best Pokemon to draw a comparison to - both of them have plenty of resistances, so have many opportunities to set up, as well as considerable bulk. Thus its role as a dual screener is only made possible through use of its typing. It's slower than Latias and Deoxys-D, and it doesn't have Taunt. Thus its typing, like with Magnezone, helps it in two ways - it enables it to force switches, and also allows it to be one of the more offensive dual screeners - STAB Fire Blast off 131 SpA sees to that. It's not exactly broken, either - even having one of the two means you are cutting down rather significantly on coverage, and having both means you are basically limited to Fire Blast and either Hidden Power or Thunderbolt, meaning Mollux is severely offensively compromised. I don't like playing the concept card, but I think that Mollux's typing gives it intriguing prospects for a dual screener, which is something I would like to see looked at further.
The second is Recover, which I would like to see allowed (even if other people have already jumped on this one already aaaagh). I wanted this Pokemon to have some sort of defensive capability - while it has been built as an offensive Pokemon, I still think that the potential is there with the stats that it has been given, but that a reliable recovery move is really needed in order to make it work. Morning Sun really isn't worth the moveslot if it's only healing 25% every turn - and even in sun, likely as not your healing will be spoiled by the changing weather. Morning Sun also doesn't give us any real chance of being a defensive Pokemon independently of the weather - that is to say, a Pokemon that acts against sun and rain teams, rather than being a player for either of them. Fire's immunity to burn and Poison's immunity to poison are valuable indeed for a wall - not to mention the much-lauded Fire/Grass/Water/Ice coupled resistance, in addition to everything else. While I appreciate the interesting relationship between Dry Skin and Morning Sun, I feel it rather leaves weatherless teams out to dry, as it were. So, for sake of non-weather teams, Recover for allowed please.
However, I want to vouch for two different sets of moves in particular. The first is the allowing of Reflect and Light Screen. I'd really like to see how this thing can use dual screens - true, it doesn't directly play off the typing that much (but really, does anything on this list?), but bear with me. Most OU dual screeners are weak to Pursuit - the only ones that aren't are Virizion, Jirachi (both of whom are pretty weak offensively) and Magnezone. Magnezone is probably the best Pokemon to draw a comparison to - both of them have plenty of resistances, so have many opportunities to set up, as well as considerable bulk. Thus its role as a dual screener is only made possible through use of its typing. It's slower than Latias and Deoxys-D, and it doesn't have Taunt. Thus its typing, like with Magnezone, helps it in two ways - it enables it to force switches, and also allows it to be one of the more offensive dual screeners - STAB Fire Blast off 131 SpA sees to that. It's not exactly broken, either - even having one of the two means you are cutting down rather significantly on coverage, and having both means you are basically limited to Fire Blast and either Hidden Power or Thunderbolt, meaning Mollux is severely offensively compromised. I don't like playing the concept card, but I think that Mollux's typing gives it intriguing prospects for a dual screener, which is something I would like to see looked at further.
The second is Recover, which I would like to see allowed (even if other people have already jumped on this one already aaaagh). I wanted this Pokemon to have some sort of defensive capability - while it has been built as an offensive Pokemon, I still think that the potential is there with the stats that it has been given, but that a reliable recovery move is really needed in order to make it work. Morning Sun really isn't worth the moveslot if it's only healing 25% every turn - and even in sun, likely as not your healing will be spoiled by the changing weather. Morning Sun also doesn't give us any real chance of being a defensive Pokemon independently of the weather - that is to say, a Pokemon that acts against sun and rain teams, rather than being a player for either of them. Fire's immunity to burn and Poison's immunity to poison are valuable indeed for a wall - not to mention the much-lauded Fire/Grass/Water/Ice coupled resistance, in addition to everything else. While I appreciate the interesting relationship between Dry Skin and Morning Sun, I feel it rather leaves weatherless teams out to dry, as it were. So, for sake of non-weather teams, Recover for allowed please.
i would like to allow disable, mostly for the utilty in it. mollux's core purpose is to shut down rain. in that sense, why not shut down the weather inducer himself.
politoed tends to run choice sets on a offensive team, meaning, he could lock out ALL of politoeds moves for a short amount of time if he is the last one standing.
but it wont be of too much use againt the likes of TTar, or ninetales because they are so fast anyway, and tend to not use choice items anyway.
and i understand that politoed is faster than mollux, and thats what makes this work.
mollux can be used to lock out one of defensive politoeds moves (eg. toxic), then he could switch out to something like jolteon, or rotom-w to clean up.
im also saying to disallow any +2 speed modifiers (e.g. automise, agility, rock polish).
the reason behind this is going to trail right back to the purpose of mollux. shutting down rain.
now, if we think about mollux's spA stat, and the take into account the fact that he can learn powerful electric type moves, has dry skin, and high defensive qualities (bar typing), the +2 speed boost would make him broken.
this would defeat the purpose of mollux entirely. he would no longer be a rain counter, he would be a rain SWEEPER.
Allow Charge. it doesnt give mollux a permanent boost to his electric attacks, but it allows him to keep the spD boost.
a nice niche against rain, that can be benefitial, but could be a bit hard to execute.
politoed tends to run choice sets on a offensive team, meaning, he could lock out ALL of politoeds moves for a short amount of time if he is the last one standing.
but it wont be of too much use againt the likes of TTar, or ninetales because they are so fast anyway, and tend to not use choice items anyway.
and i understand that politoed is faster than mollux, and thats what makes this work.
mollux can be used to lock out one of defensive politoeds moves (eg. toxic), then he could switch out to something like jolteon, or rotom-w to clean up.
im also saying to disallow any +2 speed modifiers (e.g. automise, agility, rock polish).
the reason behind this is going to trail right back to the purpose of mollux. shutting down rain.
now, if we think about mollux's spA stat, and the take into account the fact that he can learn powerful electric type moves, has dry skin, and high defensive qualities (bar typing), the +2 speed boost would make him broken.
this would defeat the purpose of mollux entirely. he would no longer be a rain counter, he would be a rain SWEEPER.
Allow Charge. it doesnt give mollux a permanent boost to his electric attacks, but it allows him to keep the spD boost.
a nice niche against rain, that can be benefitial, but could be a bit hard to execute.
I actually like the idea of Skill Swap, since it'll be so trollish when used alongside Illuminate, but I fear it'll end up just being a gimmick, since Illuminate doesn't really hinder anything and the pokemon gets his ability back when it switches out. Allow it, there is no harm it can bring, honestly.
as for Ingrain, it's flavorful, but has the same usefulness as Aqua Ring which we already have allowed. The only reason people would say not to allow Ingrain would be because using Ingrain and Aqua Ring could be broken (though, it's not imo) so Allow Ingrain, and if the only argument against it is that it's too powerful with Aqua Ring, then I suggest moving Aqua Ring to disallowed and Ingrain to allowed because it makes more flavor sense (and does basically the same thing.)
Calm Mind Sounds exactly the kind of set up move Mollux would use, it boosts it's Better Defense and sky-rockets his S.Atk to great levels even without that much investment. I say allow it
as for Ingrain, it's flavorful, but has the same usefulness as Aqua Ring which we already have allowed. The only reason people would say not to allow Ingrain would be because using Ingrain and Aqua Ring could be broken (though, it's not imo) so Allow Ingrain, and if the only argument against it is that it's too powerful with Aqua Ring, then I suggest moving Aqua Ring to disallowed and Ingrain to allowed because it makes more flavor sense (and does basically the same thing.)
Calm Mind Sounds exactly the kind of set up move Mollux would use, it boosts it's Better Defense and sky-rockets his S.Atk to great levels even without that much investment. I say allow it
Just a couple of thoughts:
I really like Cretacerus' idea for Whirlpool. If Mollux is supposed to shut down rain, why not trap and poison away? I really like this.
I'm also in favour of allowing Recover for pretty much the same reason as Bugmaniac. I think Mollux should have greater healing capabilities and any other healing move ie Morning Sun, Moonlight etc doesn't seem viable due to the unstable weather in the metagame.
Disallow +2 Speed moves. I can quickly see Mollux being drastically overpowered and broken if it managed to get some speed on with that high SpA stat and coverage.
I really like Cretacerus' idea for Whirlpool. If Mollux is supposed to shut down rain, why not trap and poison away? I really like this.
I'm also in favour of allowing Recover for pretty much the same reason as Bugmaniac. I think Mollux should have greater healing capabilities and any other healing move ie Morning Sun, Moonlight etc doesn't seem viable due to the unstable weather in the metagame.
Disallow +2 Speed moves. I can quickly see Mollux being drastically overpowered and broken if it managed to get some speed on with that high SpA stat and coverage.
Recover is the lynchpin for CAP 3's success in OU.
Every single major boosting move has been disallowed, and rightly so, and thus CAP 3 lacks a lot of either the staying power or sweeping power to actually be efficient and unique in the OU metagame compared to other similar Pokemon. Consider, for instance, that Arcanine is not an OU Pokemon, when Arcanine already boasts so many things that clearly set it miles and away above CAP 3! Arcanine packs 110 Atk, Close Combat, Wild Charge, Flare Blitz, ExtremeSpeed, Morning Sun, Intimidate, and Flash Fire. Arcanine is different from CAP 3 thanks to Dry Skin, but makes a very cogent case for the uphill struggle that SR-weak Fire-types face in OU. Recover on CAP 3 would give it a real means to overcome that vulnerability reliably, and thus come out ahead of the game and actually be a usable addition to OU. CAP 3 without Recover, I fear, will not be able to keep up with OU in a meaningful way.
Every single major boosting move has been disallowed, and rightly so, and thus CAP 3 lacks a lot of either the staying power or sweeping power to actually be efficient and unique in the OU metagame compared to other similar Pokemon. Consider, for instance, that Arcanine is not an OU Pokemon, when Arcanine already boasts so many things that clearly set it miles and away above CAP 3! Arcanine packs 110 Atk, Close Combat, Wild Charge, Flare Blitz, ExtremeSpeed, Morning Sun, Intimidate, and Flash Fire. Arcanine is different from CAP 3 thanks to Dry Skin, but makes a very cogent case for the uphill struggle that SR-weak Fire-types face in OU. Recover on CAP 3 would give it a real means to overcome that vulnerability reliably, and thus come out ahead of the game and actually be a usable addition to OU. CAP 3 without Recover, I fear, will not be able to keep up with OU in a meaningful way.
I agree with RD, and would like to add more.
Having Recover in conjunction with Dry Skin healing, Life Orb, Immunity to damaging status, and powerful special STAB moves means that Mollux would have the ability to tear opposing stall apart. In addition, Recover would enable Mollux to use Life Orb in Sun without losing a horrid amount of HP from Life Orb, Stealth Rock, and Dry Skin, if one chooses to enable it.
Having Recover in conjunction with Dry Skin healing, Life Orb, Immunity to damaging status, and powerful special STAB moves means that Mollux would have the ability to tear opposing stall apart. In addition, Recover would enable Mollux to use Life Orb in Sun without losing a horrid amount of HP from Life Orb, Stealth Rock, and Dry Skin, if one chooses to enable it.
Skill Swap is really interesting and something I never considered before. It's use is not only for Illuminate, the inconsequential ability here, but for Dry Skin. You can run a Sun team and effectively neuter an opposing team member with the crippling 12.5% HP loss and increased damage from fire attacks. This is by no means gimmicky either. It gives a way for us to fight back against defensive Heatran (though offensive tran faces the same problem but can hold EP) by taking away Flash Fire and being able to hit it with a neutral fire move. Of course, Illuminate may be fitting if the fear of offering an opponent a water immunity is frightening.
Recover is an interesting option that I see is going to have some heavy debate, much like Scald in the last thread. I'm going to think about it a little longer before making a stand.
Much like the rest of the community, we should splurge on these support moves so as to provide a great defensive and support niche for Mollux. Otherwise, we are being outclassed by many mons that offer so much more. Being diverse in this stage does not hurt the metagame as much as the attacking moves did. Here, we set up the situation for ourselves and our teammates to take advantage. We should use Mollux as a support and/or defensive pivot to help the rest of the team.
I want to say before some start slandering me, I envisioned CaP3 as a defensive pokemon when we picked the type. As the process went on, he slowly became more offense oriented in my opinion. I just want some part of Mollux to help the team, not just by taking out opposition through strong attacking moves from a high attacking stat.
Recover is an interesting option that I see is going to have some heavy debate, much like Scald in the last thread. I'm going to think about it a little longer before making a stand.
Much like the rest of the community, we should splurge on these support moves so as to provide a great defensive and support niche for Mollux. Otherwise, we are being outclassed by many mons that offer so much more. Being diverse in this stage does not hurt the metagame as much as the attacking moves did. Here, we set up the situation for ourselves and our teammates to take advantage. We should use Mollux as a support and/or defensive pivot to help the rest of the team.
I want to say before some start slandering me, I envisioned CaP3 as a defensive pokemon when we picked the type. As the process went on, he slowly became more offense oriented in my opinion. I just want some part of Mollux to help the team, not just by taking out opposition through strong attacking moves from a high attacking stat.
What about the move Memento? Many Pokémon from the Amorphous egg group learn this move by breeding. I know that it is more a gimmick, but this move can be useful for a Choice Scarf Trick Suicide Lead Mollux or allows a safe switch-in when Mollux is threatened and has no chance to survive. I think we should allow this move because it is not so powerful.
Then i suggest Safeguard. Mollux is immune against burn and poison anyway - so Safeguard would not be such a huge advantage.
My further suggestions are Haze (against bulky boosting sweepers like Volcarona and Gliscor), Confuse Ray (against BP chains) and Metal Sound (worse than Nasty Plot, because the boost is away after your opponent's Pokémon is switched out/fainted) and (only for flavor reasons, not to use in competetive Metagame: Flash)
Then i suggest Safeguard. Mollux is immune against burn and poison anyway - so Safeguard would not be such a huge advantage.
My further suggestions are Haze (against bulky boosting sweepers like Volcarona and Gliscor), Confuse Ray (against BP chains) and Metal Sound (worse than Nasty Plot, because the boost is away after your opponent's Pokémon is switched out/fainted) and (only for flavor reasons, not to use in competetive Metagame: Flash)
Yeah, since every pokemon bar 4 I believe can learn it.
I would like to throw my hat in the ring and say Mollux should get a +2 speed booster. This isn't overpowering at all. If Mollux decides to run something like Agility, it immeaditly suffers from four move slot syndrome. A fire attack and Thunderbolt are both givens. But, what HP should it run? Ice or Ground? What about a recovery move? Sure, the threat list changes slightly, but it doesn't destroy it entirely like Scald would have done. If they run HP ground, Gliscor and Dragonite hard counter it. HP Ice loses to Tyranitar and Terrakion. The main reason to give it a speed booster is simply so it can set up in some form. This also helps it's niche of countering water types. Most will, more often than not I'm predicting, switch out. All Molluk can do in this scenario, currently, is to hit the switch in for what will most likely be a resisted attack. A speed boosting move lets it put the turn to use and set up without being as powerful as Quiver Dance, or even Nasty Plot.
bmb and rd make quite compelling arguments for the addition of Screens and Recover. I think I'll be throwing my support behind them and saying allow.
I think Redjar is right, moves like Protect and Substitute should be Required, shouldn't they?
I also like Mari's suggestions of Safeguard and Haze, I think they ought to be allowed... Metal Sound is akin to Charge in that it's totally outclassed by Acid Spray, so... well... actually, I don't see the point of even having that on there, honestly. :0 Though that aside, there's no harm in allowing it. Skill Swap also seems rather harmless to me, but considering even Pokemon like Kecleon with a very, very disadvantageous ability don't even make competitive use of it, I suppose I don't see why not allow it?
Undecided on CM and speed-boosting moves. I sort of feel inclined to say that Mollux doesn't feel like it should be a booster, though based on RD's arguments for Recover, I feel like it might be the same basic principle, that CM would help Mollux fit into OU better. Or... maybe not! CM will probably be used with Recover, if it's allowed, and that severely hampers Mollux's coverage... using it without Recover severely hampers its survivability. It seems like there's enough of a downside to it (someone mentioned severe 4-moveslot syndrome earlier) that allowing it might be fine?
Agility/Automize/Rock Polish are a different story; I feel like Mollux would actually be a much bigger threat with them than with CM, because it can get 3 moveslots of coverage without having to be concerned with its mediocre speed endangering itself, which the CM set has, especially with regard to physical attacks. I have little doubt that this could be one of Mollux's more powerful sets; I suppose the question is simply, is that what we want out of it? ...I mean, there's certainly never been a +2 boosting Fire OR Poison-type quite like that before, so it might very well fit the concept in a different light than we've been looking at it.
Nonetheless, I suppose Mollux's limited coverage is possible incentive to allow +2 speed moves?
EDIT: Nah, it isn't LOL. I changed my mind.
I think Redjar is right, moves like Protect and Substitute should be Required, shouldn't they?
I also like Mari's suggestions of Safeguard and Haze, I think they ought to be allowed... Metal Sound is akin to Charge in that it's totally outclassed by Acid Spray, so... well... actually, I don't see the point of even having that on there, honestly. :0 Though that aside, there's no harm in allowing it. Skill Swap also seems rather harmless to me, but considering even Pokemon like Kecleon with a very, very disadvantageous ability don't even make competitive use of it, I suppose I don't see why not allow it?
Steel-types are immune to Clear Smog and Acid Spray, but not Haze and Metal Sound. Obviously they wouldn't be used nearly as much, but there is sufficient cause to allow them.
Undecided on CM and speed-boosting moves. I sort of feel inclined to say that Mollux doesn't feel like it should be a booster, though based on RD's arguments for Recover, I feel like it might be the same basic principle, that CM would help Mollux fit into OU better. Or... maybe not! CM will probably be used with Recover, if it's allowed, and that severely hampers Mollux's coverage... using it without Recover severely hampers its survivability. It seems like there's enough of a downside to it (someone mentioned severe 4-moveslot syndrome earlier) that allowing it might be fine?
Agility/Automize/Rock Polish are a different story; I feel like Mollux would actually be a much bigger threat with them than with CM, because it can get 3 moveslots of coverage without having to be concerned with its mediocre speed endangering itself, which the CM set has, especially with regard to physical attacks. I have little doubt that this could be one of Mollux's more powerful sets; I suppose the question is simply, is that what we want out of it? ...I mean, there's certainly never been a +2 boosting Fire OR Poison-type quite like that before, so it might very well fit the concept in a different light than we've been looking at it.
I feel inclined to point out that many Mollux might very well run only 3 attacking moves to allow a 4th slot to be allocated to Toxic, WoW, or even Recover, if that's allowed. As such, the limiting coverage might very well be the point either way. The main selling point of +2 speed is the ability to outspeed counters that would otherwise outspeed and KO Mollux itself, though the coverage issue is still a problem, as it is for sweepers like Volcarona in OU.
EDIT: Nah, it isn't LOL. I changed my mind.
I say allow Encore and Heal Bell.
Encore is honestly a non-issue for Mollux as, though it enables CAP to capitalize on an opponent's mistake and punish a switch in, CAP's lack of a boosting move means it has little to do besides burn or deal some decent (likely not fatal if the opponent switched to a counter) damage to the switch-in.
Heal Bell does little for CAP itself as Mollux is immune to 2 of the 4 most common status moves; however, it does further its role as a supporting pivot by allowing it to help its team out further. Heal Bell can only help Mollux find its way onto OU teams. Along with Recover, it can actually give CAP3 a niche in OU of an outstanding wall/cleric that can actually attack.
Encore is honestly a non-issue for Mollux as, though it enables CAP to capitalize on an opponent's mistake and punish a switch in, CAP's lack of a boosting move means it has little to do besides burn or deal some decent (likely not fatal if the opponent switched to a counter) damage to the switch-in.
Heal Bell does little for CAP itself as Mollux is immune to 2 of the 4 most common status moves; however, it does further its role as a supporting pivot by allowing it to help its team out further. Heal Bell can only help Mollux find its way onto OU teams. Along with Recover, it can actually give CAP3 a niche in OU of an outstanding wall/cleric that can actually attack.
In the AM discussion, people were discussing "oh this or that custom move would be cool on mollux." Just because a custom move would be cool on mollux does not mean it should get it. The only reason any cap should get a custom move, is if it is NECESSARY to fulfill the concept.
Let's review the concept:
So basically, we were supposed to take a pokemon that we decided would be fire/poison, and make that fire/poison typing helpful for it. What is the biggest thing poison does for us? It protects us from poison. Two roles of pokemon benefit the most from a poison immunity: Walls and Bulky sweepers. With the stat spread we have, we would be very hard pressed to make mollux into a wall. This leaves us as a bulky sweeper.
So, what do we need to make mollux a bulky sweeper? It needs a boosting option, and it needs recovery. Lets focus on the former first. With a fire/poison typing, we will struggle to overcome physical attackers who can hit us hard with ground and rock attacks. This means that to be a successful bulky sweeper, we need to boost defense. So, here is a list of moves that boost defense: Coil, Bulk up, Acid armor family, harden family, cosmic power. Almost none of these will be sufficient for us to sweep, as coil and bulk up are ruled out by our low attack stat, and acid armor/harden families are not viable for obvious reasons. This leaves cosmic power. Yes, cosmic power might be able to work, but as clefable has shown, cosmic power is nothing better than a gimmick, due to the fact you don't OHKO things, meaning you need to take hits as you set up and as you sweep, allowing for a LOT of chances at critical hits. This means, with current options, mollux can not truly be a bulky sweeper.
As discussed earlier, this is where a custom move can come in. We need it to best fulfill the concept. I would thus like to suggest a move that boosts Defense and Special attack, each by one stage. This, along with recovery, would be very difficult to take down, using the typing's natural lack of weaknesses to special attacks, combined with boosting defense and immunity to damaging status to allow mollux to be able to take most moves.
This is why I believe we NEED to give mollux a good recovery option and a custom move that boosts Defense and Special Attack by 1 stage each to best fulfill the concept.
Let's review the concept:
[quote="concept]Name: Extreme Makeover: Typing Edition
General Description: The idea here is to create a Pokemon who's typing, while normally considered poor defensively and/or offensively, becomes a strong selling point of the Pokemon itself via help from an ability, stats, and/or movepool.
Justification: There are a lot of typings we scoff at on a daily basis because of their serious flaws, often forgetting about their strong points. For example, Poison is a really terrible offensive typing, but a decent defensive typing, while the Ice typing is good offensively, but awful defensively. Instead of just accepting that some typings will just ruin a Pokemon, this CAP concept aims to take that "terrible typing", and find ways to fix it (usually via ability, movepool, or stats) to the point where the formerly terrible typing becomes the CAP's strong point! The reason this CAP could benefit OU is because a Pokemon who makes a "bad typing" into a great one could find many unique offensive and/or defensive niches that aren't currently found!
Questions To Be Answered
-What does it take for a Pokemon to overcome its "bad typing" so much that its typing becomes good? Are the stats the biggest contributer, is the ability the thing that saves it, does movepool make it a force, or is it a combination of the above?
-How does the typing makeover effect the Pokemon's playstyle? Does the Pokemon become a unique wall that uses its makeover to overcome its typing's normally fatal flaws, does the make over make a terrible offensive typing into a fearsome sweeper, does the makeover make it into a formidible combination of deffense and offense to a typing that brings it neither, or does the makeover bring forth something none of us see coming from the typing?
-Which resistances and immunities are the most relevant to the metagame? Sure, this concept is aiming to have a "bad typing" become good, but part of that will require the bad typing to have some key resistances and/or immunties to certain typings to defend against or set up on, while still having a very unorthodox competitive typing. This works the other way around too, what are the typings most relevant to hit super effectively or at least neutral?
-How will the rest of the OU metagame react to this extreme type makeover? Will Pokemon start carrying moves they normally wouldn't carry to break through a new defensive threat, will some Pokemon take on new defensive roles due to resisting the unorthodox STABs CAP 3 may carry? Or will This Pokemon, despite being a very real threat, not have many "custom made sets" to beat it, being more of a Pokemon that is a reaction to the metagame than causing a metagame reaction?
-Finally, how will this effect the teams CAP3 is on? Will this be the kind of Pokemon who needs a lot of support to become a threat, will this Pokemon be more of key team member to execute another strategy, or will this be the kind of Pokemon that's part of the glue that holds the team together?[/quote]
General Description: The idea here is to create a Pokemon who's typing, while normally considered poor defensively and/or offensively, becomes a strong selling point of the Pokemon itself via help from an ability, stats, and/or movepool.
Justification: There are a lot of typings we scoff at on a daily basis because of their serious flaws, often forgetting about their strong points. For example, Poison is a really terrible offensive typing, but a decent defensive typing, while the Ice typing is good offensively, but awful defensively. Instead of just accepting that some typings will just ruin a Pokemon, this CAP concept aims to take that "terrible typing", and find ways to fix it (usually via ability, movepool, or stats) to the point where the formerly terrible typing becomes the CAP's strong point! The reason this CAP could benefit OU is because a Pokemon who makes a "bad typing" into a great one could find many unique offensive and/or defensive niches that aren't currently found!
Questions To Be Answered
-What does it take for a Pokemon to overcome its "bad typing" so much that its typing becomes good? Are the stats the biggest contributer, is the ability the thing that saves it, does movepool make it a force, or is it a combination of the above?
-How does the typing makeover effect the Pokemon's playstyle? Does the Pokemon become a unique wall that uses its makeover to overcome its typing's normally fatal flaws, does the make over make a terrible offensive typing into a fearsome sweeper, does the makeover make it into a formidible combination of deffense and offense to a typing that brings it neither, or does the makeover bring forth something none of us see coming from the typing?
-Which resistances and immunities are the most relevant to the metagame? Sure, this concept is aiming to have a "bad typing" become good, but part of that will require the bad typing to have some key resistances and/or immunties to certain typings to defend against or set up on, while still having a very unorthodox competitive typing. This works the other way around too, what are the typings most relevant to hit super effectively or at least neutral?
-How will the rest of the OU metagame react to this extreme type makeover? Will Pokemon start carrying moves they normally wouldn't carry to break through a new defensive threat, will some Pokemon take on new defensive roles due to resisting the unorthodox STABs CAP 3 may carry? Or will This Pokemon, despite being a very real threat, not have many "custom made sets" to beat it, being more of a Pokemon that is a reaction to the metagame than causing a metagame reaction?
-Finally, how will this effect the teams CAP3 is on? Will this be the kind of Pokemon who needs a lot of support to become a threat, will this Pokemon be more of key team member to execute another strategy, or will this be the kind of Pokemon that's part of the glue that holds the team together?[/quote]
So, what do we need to make mollux a bulky sweeper? It needs a boosting option, and it needs recovery. Lets focus on the former first. With a fire/poison typing, we will struggle to overcome physical attackers who can hit us hard with ground and rock attacks. This means that to be a successful bulky sweeper, we need to boost defense. So, here is a list of moves that boost defense: Coil, Bulk up, Acid armor family, harden family, cosmic power. Almost none of these will be sufficient for us to sweep, as coil and bulk up are ruled out by our low attack stat, and acid armor/harden families are not viable for obvious reasons. This leaves cosmic power. Yes, cosmic power might be able to work, but as clefable has shown, cosmic power is nothing better than a gimmick, due to the fact you don't OHKO things, meaning you need to take hits as you set up and as you sweep, allowing for a LOT of chances at critical hits. This means, with current options, mollux can not truly be a bulky sweeper.
As discussed earlier, this is where a custom move can come in. We need it to best fulfill the concept. I would thus like to suggest a move that boosts Defense and Special attack, each by one stage. This, along with recovery, would be very difficult to take down, using the typing's natural lack of weaknesses to special attacks, combined with boosting defense and immunity to damaging status to allow mollux to be able to take most moves.
This is why I believe we NEED to give mollux a good recovery option and a custom move that boosts Defense and Special Attack by 1 stage each to best fulfill the concept.
I'm joining this a bit late, but I think most everything done so far has made sense. With a few exceptions:
I do NOT like giving Mollux Toxic Spikes + Stealth Rock + Rapid Spin. With that kind of support movepool, along with required Will-o-Wisp additionally... there is little reason to run a Tentacruel anymore. I think quite frankly, Mollux should get Stealth Rock and that's it. Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin should both be niches left to Tentacruel, in my opinion, since Mollux largely outclasses Tentacruel in a few notable ways (fewer weaknesses, water absorption rather than just rain dish, not getting crippled in other weathers.)
Now on to the pending moves:
Agility / Autotomize / Rock Polish - I am a resounding NO. Mollux should have to rely on Flame Charge for a speed boost. +2 Speed means Mollux can easily outspeed Scarf Landorus, which removes Landorus from even being a check. DISALLOW
Calm Mind - While certainly not OP, I am inclined to keep Acid Spray the only Special modifying option for Mollux. DISALLOW
Disable - Don't see how it could be broken. ALLOW
Encore - Don't see how it could be broken. ALLOW
Heal Bell - Interesting option, as Mollux is a good semi-status absorber. Not sure if I like it being able to cure its own paralysis though. DISALLOW
Ingrain - No reason not to allow it, in my opinion. All it does is trap Mollux in so it can be revenged by a check. And flavor-wise, at least Corsola can learn it. It's not Grass-exclusive. ALLOW
Magnet Rise - Leaves Mollux weak ONLY to Psychic moves, while resisting a gazillion types and being immune to 2. It's a bit concerning... 4MSS exists, I know, but I can't make a conclusive decision on this.
Recover - NO. Morning Sun should be it's only option. Not to mention Dry Skin + Protect + Lefties is already amazing under Rain. DISALLOW
Skill Swap - Could be trollish on Illuminate sets I suppose, especially if it swaps with a Chlorophyll user or a Levitator. Sure, allowed. Never seen a Skill Swap set used successfully in singles. ALLOW
Wish - Again, no. Sticking with Morning Sun or Dry Skin + Protect + Lefties. DISALLOW
I do NOT like giving Mollux Toxic Spikes + Stealth Rock + Rapid Spin. With that kind of support movepool, along with required Will-o-Wisp additionally... there is little reason to run a Tentacruel anymore. I think quite frankly, Mollux should get Stealth Rock and that's it. Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin should both be niches left to Tentacruel, in my opinion, since Mollux largely outclasses Tentacruel in a few notable ways (fewer weaknesses, water absorption rather than just rain dish, not getting crippled in other weathers.)
Now on to the pending moves:
Agility / Autotomize / Rock Polish - I am a resounding NO. Mollux should have to rely on Flame Charge for a speed boost. +2 Speed means Mollux can easily outspeed Scarf Landorus, which removes Landorus from even being a check. DISALLOW
Calm Mind - While certainly not OP, I am inclined to keep Acid Spray the only Special modifying option for Mollux. DISALLOW
Disable - Don't see how it could be broken. ALLOW
Encore - Don't see how it could be broken. ALLOW
Heal Bell - Interesting option, as Mollux is a good semi-status absorber. Not sure if I like it being able to cure its own paralysis though. DISALLOW
Ingrain - No reason not to allow it, in my opinion. All it does is trap Mollux in so it can be revenged by a check. And flavor-wise, at least Corsola can learn it. It's not Grass-exclusive. ALLOW
Magnet Rise - Leaves Mollux weak ONLY to Psychic moves, while resisting a gazillion types and being immune to 2. It's a bit concerning... 4MSS exists, I know, but I can't make a conclusive decision on this.
Recover - NO. Morning Sun should be it's only option. Not to mention Dry Skin + Protect + Lefties is already amazing under Rain. DISALLOW
Skill Swap - Could be trollish on Illuminate sets I suppose, especially if it swaps with a Chlorophyll user or a Levitator. Sure, allowed. Never seen a Skill Swap set used successfully in singles. ALLOW
Wish - Again, no. Sticking with Morning Sun or Dry Skin + Protect + Lefties. DISALLOW
Made a few more updates.
Allowing Recover, added Protect and Substitute.
I am leaning towards allowing the stat boosters. What will end up happening is that people will construct their movepools with their own vision for Mollux's sets and the voters can go from there. The last few things left I think of real importance are these boosters, Disable, and Wish. I think everything else Mollux might want in its potential bag of tricks (save Taunt cause everything loves that) will be available to it.
Screens are still off limits right now. Remember, the concept is to make the typing work for Mollux, and loading it up with highly competitive support makes it difficult to do that. One-ofs with little synergy in and of themselves like hazards and spin are fine. Dual Screens takes up two slots and honestly I'm even thinking about other restrictions on things like Recover + Rapid Spin + Stealth Rock being illegal together. I'd like some feedback on this, because I don't think a set like Lava Plume/Stealth Rock/Rapid Spin/Recover fulfills the concept, but I'm not upset by Stealth Rock + Recover and Rapid Spin + Recover.
Allowing Recover, added Protect and Substitute.
I am leaning towards allowing the stat boosters. What will end up happening is that people will construct their movepools with their own vision for Mollux's sets and the voters can go from there. The last few things left I think of real importance are these boosters, Disable, and Wish. I think everything else Mollux might want in its potential bag of tricks (save Taunt cause everything loves that) will be available to it.
Screens are still off limits right now. Remember, the concept is to make the typing work for Mollux, and loading it up with highly competitive support makes it difficult to do that. One-ofs with little synergy in and of themselves like hazards and spin are fine. Dual Screens takes up two slots and honestly I'm even thinking about other restrictions on things like Recover + Rapid Spin + Stealth Rock being illegal together. I'd like some feedback on this, because I don't think a set like Lava Plume/Stealth Rock/Rapid Spin/Recover fulfills the concept, but I'm not upset by Stealth Rock + Recover and Rapid Spin + Recover.
Just as a minor point, but Mollux resist almost all types of common priority in OU. He gains health from Aqua Jet. He resist Mach Punch and Bullet Punch. iirc, only common priority in OU that hits for neutral is Extreme Speed, and that's almost always unSTAB'd (plus only like 2 or 3 pokemon use it, one of which is in our threat list) Mollux would make a user of a +2 speed booster who resist almost all priority moves. Not sure if this is good or not, but I'm currently leaning towards Not Allowing +2 Speed Boosters.
Encore and Heal Bell make for some support moves. Encore only works on slow pokemon if you can predict correctly. Heal Bell doesn't benefit Mollux but can make for an interesting cleric, a cleric who can actually hurt stuff. Allow Encore and Heal Bell
Calm Mind makes Mollux a stall killer much like Reuniclus, except with worst coverage, but easier way to deal with rain stall. Plus, we're too slow to sweep with Calm Mind. Allow Calm Mind.
Disable is interesting. Again, doesn't work well unless you can predict stuff. Don't see any reason not to Allow Disable.
Encore and Heal Bell make for some support moves. Encore only works on slow pokemon if you can predict correctly. Heal Bell doesn't benefit Mollux but can make for an interesting cleric, a cleric who can actually hurt stuff. Allow Encore and Heal Bell
Calm Mind makes Mollux a stall killer much like Reuniclus, except with worst coverage, but easier way to deal with rain stall. Plus, we're too slow to sweep with Calm Mind. Allow Calm Mind.
Disable is interesting. Again, doesn't work well unless you can predict stuff. Don't see any reason not to Allow Disable.
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