Hidden power won't be a prolem for heatran. air ballon means that heatran is immune to fire, poison and ground.
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CAP 14 CAP 3 - Part 6 - Stat Spread Submissions
- Thread starter capefeather
- Start date
- Status
Hope this isn't polljumping since it seems just pretty obvious and sensible, but I should think CAP3 is most likely getting no fighting moves beyond HP Fighting, since we want Tyranitar to threaten CAP3, not the other way around.
FINAL SUBMISSION
Stats: 97 HP / 64 Atk / 90 Def / 125 SpA / 105 SpD / 74 Spe
BST: 555
PT: 155.6645 (Very Good)
ST: 179.4462 (Excellent)
PS: 88.859 (Below Average)
SS: 169.5771 (Very Good)
Rating: 326.7447 (Very Good)
ODB: -2.0916 (Slightly biased towards defense)
PSB: -15.3075 (Heavily biased towards special)
Offensive Capacity: Basing this entirely on the pokemon CAP3 is supposed to threaten, this offensive spread gives CAP3 the ability to 2hko 252/0 Politoed with a LO boosted Sludge Wave while Politoed can't do anything back, esentially allowing CAP3 to switch in on Politoed scot-free and threaten. Tentacruel won't be able to do much against CAP3 beyond spinning as CAP3 will absorb water moves and not give a hoot otherwise. Offensively, CAP3 can 2hko 252/0 Tenta after Stealth Rock Damage with HP Ground. Jellicent is really the only missing piece but CAP3 will still win out in the defensive prospect (meaning I'll get to it there).
Defensive Capacity:
Starting off with the previously mentioned Jellicent, this spread won't be able to kill Jellicent with offensive power (unless it gets something absurd like Thunderbolt or Giga Drain). However unless Jelli is specs'd, this spread will totally wall Jellicent's Shadow Ball UNINVESTED (20.6% - 24.5%) and be able to toxic stall it with a recovery move like Pain Split or Morning Sun / Moonlight. Beyond this the mons that totally threaten CAP3 will definitely still be able to beat CAP3 with this spread. 0 Atk Ttar will do about 82% max to this spread with Stone Edge while CAP3 won't be able to do more than 33% back unless CAP3 gets an absurd move (please lord don't give it Focus Blast or Aura Sphere @_@). This alone means that the other prevalent threats will be able to keep CAP3 at bay and reliably force it out.
Speed Demon:
I've thought about the idea that CAP3 should be able to threaten at least Modest Offensive Heatran, which sits at a speed of 253. CAP3 would need 192 Speed Evs and a Timid nature in order to outspeed, while also needing HP Ground in order to hit Balloon-less Heatran. With HP Ground and max Special Attack this spread has a chance to OHKO 0/0 modest Heatran (87.9% - 104%) while Heatran can cleanly OHKO back with Earth Power. This isn't exactly supporting Offensive Heatran as a threat, but 252 Spe+ CAP3 will always lose to Timid Heatran. CAP3 will also outspeed SpD Heatran with a little speed investment while being able to reliably 2hko with HP Ground (53.9% - 64.2%) keeping Heatran as a situational check. CAP3 will also only need 140 Speed EVs to outspeed 252 neutral Politoed and even less investment to outspeed Jellicent. Meanwhile Support Tenta gets outsped by 144+ CAP3, which is also a plus but not really needed since Tenta, Jelli and Poli can't do much to CAP3.
Stats: 97 HP / 64 Atk / 90 Def / 125 SpA / 105 SpD / 74 Spe
BST: 555
PT: 155.6645 (Very Good)
ST: 179.4462 (Excellent)
PS: 88.859 (Below Average)
SS: 169.5771 (Very Good)
Rating: 326.7447 (Very Good)
ODB: -2.0916 (Slightly biased towards defense)
PSB: -15.3075 (Heavily biased towards special)
Offensive Capacity: Basing this entirely on the pokemon CAP3 is supposed to threaten, this offensive spread gives CAP3 the ability to 2hko 252/0 Politoed with a LO boosted Sludge Wave while Politoed can't do anything back, esentially allowing CAP3 to switch in on Politoed scot-free and threaten. Tentacruel won't be able to do much against CAP3 beyond spinning as CAP3 will absorb water moves and not give a hoot otherwise. Offensively, CAP3 can 2hko 252/0 Tenta after Stealth Rock Damage with HP Ground. Jellicent is really the only missing piece but CAP3 will still win out in the defensive prospect (meaning I'll get to it there).
252 SpA neu LO CAP3 Sludge Wave vs 252/0 neu Politoed - 51.6% - 60.9%
252 SpA neu LO CAP3 HP Ground vs 252/0 neu Tentacruel - 45.6% - 53.8%
252 SpA neu LO CAP3 HP Ground vs 252/0 neu Tentacruel - 45.6% - 53.8%
Defensive Capacity:
Starting off with the previously mentioned Jellicent, this spread won't be able to kill Jellicent with offensive power (unless it gets something absurd like Thunderbolt or Giga Drain). However unless Jelli is specs'd, this spread will totally wall Jellicent's Shadow Ball UNINVESTED (20.6% - 24.5%) and be able to toxic stall it with a recovery move like Pain Split or Morning Sun / Moonlight. Beyond this the mons that totally threaten CAP3 will definitely still be able to beat CAP3 with this spread. 0 Atk Ttar will do about 82% max to this spread with Stone Edge while CAP3 won't be able to do more than 33% back unless CAP3 gets an absurd move (please lord don't give it Focus Blast or Aura Sphere @_@). This alone means that the other prevalent threats will be able to keep CAP3 at bay and reliably force it out.
Landorus (OU Expert Belt) Stone Edge: 81.49 - 96.71%
Landorus (OU Choice Scarf) Stone Edge: 69.25 - 81.79%
Dugtrio (OU Revenge Killer [Choice Band]) Stone Edge: 77.01 - 90.74%
Dugtrio (OU Revenge Killer [Life Orb]) Stone Edge: 66.86 - 78.8%
Dugtrio (OU Reversal [Expert Belt]) Stone Edge: 61.49 - 72.83%
Terrakion (OU Choice Band) Stone Edge: 159.4 - 188.05%
Terrakion (OU Choice Band) Close Combat: 47.46 - 56.11%
Gliscor (OU Defensive) Earthquake: 133.73 - 158.8%
Landorus (OU Choice Scarf) Stone Edge: 69.25 - 81.79%
Dugtrio (OU Revenge Killer [Choice Band]) Stone Edge: 77.01 - 90.74%
Dugtrio (OU Revenge Killer [Life Orb]) Stone Edge: 66.86 - 78.8%
Dugtrio (OU Reversal [Expert Belt]) Stone Edge: 61.49 - 72.83%
Terrakion (OU Choice Band) Stone Edge: 159.4 - 188.05%
Terrakion (OU Choice Band) Close Combat: 47.46 - 56.11%
Gliscor (OU Defensive) Earthquake: 133.73 - 158.8%
Speed Demon:
I've thought about the idea that CAP3 should be able to threaten at least Modest Offensive Heatran, which sits at a speed of 253. CAP3 would need 192 Speed Evs and a Timid nature in order to outspeed, while also needing HP Ground in order to hit Balloon-less Heatran. With HP Ground and max Special Attack this spread has a chance to OHKO 0/0 modest Heatran (87.9% - 104%) while Heatran can cleanly OHKO back with Earth Power. This isn't exactly supporting Offensive Heatran as a threat, but 252 Spe+ CAP3 will always lose to Timid Heatran. CAP3 will also outspeed SpD Heatran with a little speed investment while being able to reliably 2hko with HP Ground (53.9% - 64.2%) keeping Heatran as a situational check. CAP3 will also only need 140 Speed EVs to outspeed 252 neutral Politoed and even less investment to outspeed Jellicent. Meanwhile Support Tenta gets outsped by 144+ CAP3, which is also a plus but not really needed since Tenta, Jelli and Poli can't do much to CAP3.
How do you intend on policing this? Poison is an absolutely terrible offensive typing and the only way you're going to MAKE people use it is by giving this thing no coverage.
I wish people would quit with the hyperbole. I'm not going to poll jump here, but basically it's the Electivire principle. It's not that difficult to account for something when you realize "It's Super-Effective!" is not synonymous with a OHKO. Even then, every one of our counters resists Poison-STAB anyway, so we'd be using a coverage move for them. Personally I'm a fan of Special Fighting coverage since half the counters still resist it, and Tyranitar could still take it unless it came in on say Acid Spray (which would be using STAB) and CAP3 followed up with a 70% Acc FocusBlast. Alternatively TTar comes in on Coil and the Acc issue is fixed. In any case, the methodology involved would invariably end up using an element that lends itself to a benefit of Poison STAB or Poison toolkits, etc. Something like Gras Knot would also work. It all really depends on what we want CAP 3 to do. That's all in the future though, and I'll probably have the Attacking Move discussion first to get a handle on that.
I'm glad you posted Deck, but let's talk about this.
There is no good reason to ask for a minimum of 70 Atk and SpA in order to support gimmick sets that assume a serious polljump in the first place. I also don't think an overwhelming number of calculations is useful in stat spreads at all. We should not be required to have every STAB Psychic-type attack in OU listed against CAP 3 or what-have-you, Scizor's U-turn is doing less than 20% to every spread in this thread, and Politoed and Starmie have so many better things to be doing in OU than running Psychic to beat one Pokemon who, given any stat spread in this thread thus far and its typing, will be relatively simple to handle with modest team editing from standard OU rain teams. If you ever want to talk to someone about how this should actually play out competitively, there are lots of good players in CAP who can help out. Feel free to take advantage of them.
There is no good reason to ask for a minimum of 70 Atk and SpA in order to support gimmick sets that assume a serious polljump in the first place. I also don't think an overwhelming number of calculations is useful in stat spreads at all. We should not be required to have every STAB Psychic-type attack in OU listed against CAP 3 or what-have-you, Scizor's U-turn is doing less than 20% to every spread in this thread, and Politoed and Starmie have so many better things to be doing in OU than running Psychic to beat one Pokemon who, given any stat spread in this thread thus far and its typing, will be relatively simple to handle with modest team editing from standard OU rain teams. If you ever want to talk to someone about how this should actually play out competitively, there are lots of good players in CAP who can help out. Feel free to take advantage of them.
It's not a requirement, just something I would prefer. It may end up being irrelevant, nonetheless I've never been a fan of dump stats when they aren't needed. Poison does actually have the tools to get around something like Blissey or whatever without a useful Attack stat.
Final Submission
HP: 91 323-386
Atk: 60 140-156-219-240
Def: 94 201-224-287-315
SpA: 105 221-246-309-339
SpD: 116 241-268-331-364
Spe: 89 192-214-277-304
PT: 155.6445 (Very Good)
ST: 189.4554 (Excellent)
PS: 92.2324 (Below Average)
SS: 163.8857 (Very Good)
ODB: -4.6382 (Slightly biased toward Defense)
PSB: -15.4488 (Highly biased toward Special)
BSR: 331.7683 (Very Good)
BST: 555
The Spread: 91/60/94/105/116/89
It was tempting for me to re-make Volcarona or Heatran for these stats, but I chose a different path that lies somewhere between the two in terms of playstyle so that it doesn't get outclassed by both. This spread aims to use a reliable defensive backbone and a manipulative Speed stat to get most of its work done in conjunction with the movepool, which I believe should be diverse if this Poke is to get any sort of foothold in OU (we've done a pretty good job of neutering its STAB effectiveness via typing and primary Ability, and Volcarona and Heatran are both adept enough at launching high-powered Fire moves for OU). The spread as a whole is pretty balanced compared to the others. Its offensive stats are less dramatic in order to emphasize Speed and coverage-based defensive viability instead of falling back on Hidden Power and enormous stats for raw power.
Offenses: 60/105/89
On their own, they're pretty dismal, I'll admit. I did this on purpose, however, to open CAP up to choosing the correct coverage options to defend itself against its most devastating checks (most threats are frail-ish or have 4x weaknesses). 60 Atk is unusable but not too low to intentionally fudge the numbers. I don't envision Flare Blitz or physical Fighting moves being real options here when we have a Stealth Rock weakness and immunity to Chansey/Blissey's Toxic. 105 SpA is just fine to take advantage of weather-based attack boosts and performs adequately on its own, when invested in (252 EVs, neutral nature). It can potentially nab 2HKOs on things like Vaporeon (46.88 - 55.36%) or defensive Politoed (46.87 - 55.2%) with SR and Thunderbolt, which isn't overpowered, imo, considering the investment it took to get to those results. It doesn't impact our threat list too much, though, as it'll take a Modest nature, 252 EVs, and a Life Orb to do substantial damage to SpDTar in Sand with even something like Focus Blast (77.22 - 91.08%, Scald/Energy Ball being the next best options at 25.74 - 30.69%). Uninvested, its 246 SpA stat is "just okay" for using those defensive attacks like Scald or Flamethrower in the Sun. Flamethrower by itself still OHKOs Ferrothorn with SR (93.18 - 110.22%), and something like Energy Ball would do respectable damage to offensive Rotom-W (47.1 - 56.19%) and Gastrodon (82.62 - 97.65%). SpDTar takes 43.56 - 51.48% from Focus Blast in Sand, with Energy Ball or Scald a distant second with 14.35 - 17.32%.
The primary draw here I think is the Speed stat. 89 Spe rests in a particularly sparse area of Speed tiers in OU. The 214-304 Spe range is one I think is worth exploring with a Pokemon like this, especially considering how so many crucial Pokemon like Heatran, Politoed, Mamoswine, Tentacruel, Gliscor, Rotom-W, Haxorus, Dragonite, Jirachi, and Celebi hang out in this neighborhood. All of their playstyles could be affected if CAP finds a way to check them. The faster 'mons like Gliscor and Jirachi may have to sacrifice bulk in exchange for Speed order to defeat CAP, and the slower ones may run faster EV spreads to pressure CAP to do the same. Conveniently enough, Timid Heatran outruns all neutral-Spe CAPs by a point, leaving it on the threatlist for defensive or Modest builds. Jolly Mamoswine and Timid Rotom-W outspeed neutral CAP as well, while on the flip side Haxorus, Landorus, and base 100s like Celebi and Salamence must run +Spe to guarantee being faster than Timid CAP. This could make a noticeable impact on how these Pokemon are used and how effective they are in the metagame. The Speed is also perfectly boostable; it can outrun Scarf Rotom-W at +1 or with a Scarf of its own (456 Spe w/ Timid) to help combat VoltTurn (hopefully with a good coverage move). 89 Spe is right at the top of the middle-slow area of OU, allowing CAP to choose how best to use Speed to handle the particular tank-ish and defensive threats it needs to handle, while at the same time tapping at the toes of the faster threats who neglect Spe out of a lack of necessity.
Defenses: 91/94/116
I thought for a while about what advantages this Poke ought to have defensively. At first, I looked at the list of resistances and planned on throwing all the stats into physical Defense, but I eventually came around to the idea of checking errant Volt Turns and Hurricanes and Draco Meteors and ended up maxing out on SpD as a result. I took the Heatran model of defensive Fire-type and tilted it toward the Special end, resulting in something more in line with SpD Jirachi, when invested. Tanking Special hits will be key to allowing this CAP to switch in to SR and accomplish something; it's prefect for setting up on the likes of Politoed and Starmie (unless both start running Psychic, otherwise Vaporeon or Jellicent will do, amongst others). Even with 252/252+, CAP falls to nearly every Earthquake in OU with SR damage, but at the same time it takes pittance from Scizor and Water-types that usually rely on Ice or Grass or Toxic for coverage.
Basically, defensive CAP can put up with a lot without being overwhelmingly wallish. From the SPD side, it's a little stronger than CalmTran and SpD Jirachi, but the spread leaves CAP more open to physical attacks in general, something that resistances and Burns can make up for.
Final Comments:
As I said earlier, I want CAP to really catch its niche in its diverse movepool, to make it stand out from the raw-damage, high output offensive Firemons of OU. This spread does its best to accomodate for strategic coverage options and for reliable STABs/statuses at the same time. It's more of an exercise in defensive finesse, as it has neither the ability to sweep nor wall but can still manage to make itself useful despite the faults of the typing. The SR weakness is going to limit CAP's time in battle much of the time, meaning switching in and out will be a burden on the CAP user; by making the CAP more of an urgent threat (higher Spe, tricky SE coverage), we are giving it a specific path to success without relying too much on any one element to "save" the typing (thus allowing later stages of CAP's design to further shape CAP's playstyle and effectiveness).
HP: 91 323-386
Atk: 60 140-156-219-240
Def: 94 201-224-287-315
SpA: 105 221-246-309-339
SpD: 116 241-268-331-364
Spe: 89 192-214-277-304
PT: 155.6445 (Very Good)
ST: 189.4554 (Excellent)
PS: 92.2324 (Below Average)
SS: 163.8857 (Very Good)
ODB: -4.6382 (Slightly biased toward Defense)
PSB: -15.4488 (Highly biased toward Special)
BSR: 331.7683 (Very Good)
BST: 555
The Spread: 91/60/94/105/116/89
It was tempting for me to re-make Volcarona or Heatran for these stats, but I chose a different path that lies somewhere between the two in terms of playstyle so that it doesn't get outclassed by both. This spread aims to use a reliable defensive backbone and a manipulative Speed stat to get most of its work done in conjunction with the movepool, which I believe should be diverse if this Poke is to get any sort of foothold in OU (we've done a pretty good job of neutering its STAB effectiveness via typing and primary Ability, and Volcarona and Heatran are both adept enough at launching high-powered Fire moves for OU). The spread as a whole is pretty balanced compared to the others. Its offensive stats are less dramatic in order to emphasize Speed and coverage-based defensive viability instead of falling back on Hidden Power and enormous stats for raw power.
Offenses: 60/105/89
On their own, they're pretty dismal, I'll admit. I did this on purpose, however, to open CAP up to choosing the correct coverage options to defend itself against its most devastating checks (most threats are frail-ish or have 4x weaknesses). 60 Atk is unusable but not too low to intentionally fudge the numbers. I don't envision Flare Blitz or physical Fighting moves being real options here when we have a Stealth Rock weakness and immunity to Chansey/Blissey's Toxic. 105 SpA is just fine to take advantage of weather-based attack boosts and performs adequately on its own, when invested in (252 EVs, neutral nature). It can potentially nab 2HKOs on things like Vaporeon (46.88 - 55.36%) or defensive Politoed (46.87 - 55.2%) with SR and Thunderbolt, which isn't overpowered, imo, considering the investment it took to get to those results. It doesn't impact our threat list too much, though, as it'll take a Modest nature, 252 EVs, and a Life Orb to do substantial damage to SpDTar in Sand with even something like Focus Blast (77.22 - 91.08%, Scald/Energy Ball being the next best options at 25.74 - 30.69%). Uninvested, its 246 SpA stat is "just okay" for using those defensive attacks like Scald or Flamethrower in the Sun. Flamethrower by itself still OHKOs Ferrothorn with SR (93.18 - 110.22%), and something like Energy Ball would do respectable damage to offensive Rotom-W (47.1 - 56.19%) and Gastrodon (82.62 - 97.65%). SpDTar takes 43.56 - 51.48% from Focus Blast in Sand, with Energy Ball or Scald a distant second with 14.35 - 17.32%.
The primary draw here I think is the Speed stat. 89 Spe rests in a particularly sparse area of Speed tiers in OU. The 214-304 Spe range is one I think is worth exploring with a Pokemon like this, especially considering how so many crucial Pokemon like Heatran, Politoed, Mamoswine, Tentacruel, Gliscor, Rotom-W, Haxorus, Dragonite, Jirachi, and Celebi hang out in this neighborhood. All of their playstyles could be affected if CAP finds a way to check them. The faster 'mons like Gliscor and Jirachi may have to sacrifice bulk in exchange for Speed order to defeat CAP, and the slower ones may run faster EV spreads to pressure CAP to do the same. Conveniently enough, Timid Heatran outruns all neutral-Spe CAPs by a point, leaving it on the threatlist for defensive or Modest builds. Jolly Mamoswine and Timid Rotom-W outspeed neutral CAP as well, while on the flip side Haxorus, Landorus, and base 100s like Celebi and Salamence must run +Spe to guarantee being faster than Timid CAP. This could make a noticeable impact on how these Pokemon are used and how effective they are in the metagame. The Speed is also perfectly boostable; it can outrun Scarf Rotom-W at +1 or with a Scarf of its own (456 Spe w/ Timid) to help combat VoltTurn (hopefully with a good coverage move). 89 Spe is right at the top of the middle-slow area of OU, allowing CAP to choose how best to use Speed to handle the particular tank-ish and defensive threats it needs to handle, while at the same time tapping at the toes of the faster threats who neglect Spe out of a lack of necessity.
Defenses: 91/94/116
I thought for a while about what advantages this Poke ought to have defensively. At first, I looked at the list of resistances and planned on throwing all the stats into physical Defense, but I eventually came around to the idea of checking errant Volt Turns and Hurricanes and Draco Meteors and ended up maxing out on SpD as a result. I took the Heatran model of defensive Fire-type and tilted it toward the Special end, resulting in something more in line with SpD Jirachi, when invested. Tanking Special hits will be key to allowing this CAP to switch in to SR and accomplish something; it's prefect for setting up on the likes of Politoed and Starmie (unless both start running Psychic, otherwise Vaporeon or Jellicent will do, amongst others). Even with 252/252+, CAP falls to nearly every Earthquake in OU with SR damage, but at the same time it takes pittance from Scizor and Water-types that usually rely on Ice or Grass or Toxic for coverage.
Choice Specs Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 0/0 CAP: 40.24 - 47.67%
Choice Specs Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 252/0 CAP: 33.67 - 39.89%
Choice Specs Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 252/252+ CAP: 24.87 - 29.53%
0 SpA CAP Energy Ball vs. 4/0 Rotom-W: 47.1 - 56.19% 2HKO w/SR
Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 0/0 CAP: 30.95 - 36.53%
Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252/0 CAP: 25.9 - 30.56%
Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252/252+ CAP: 18.91 - 22.53%
0 SpA CAP Thunderbolt vs. 0/4 Starmie: 62.06 - 73.56% 2HKO
0 SpA CAP Energy Ball vs. 0/4 Starmie: 52.1 - 62.06% 2HKO
Timid Heatran Earth Power vs. 252/252+ CAP: 72.53 - 86.01% OHKO w/SR
0 SpA CAP Earth Power vs. 0/4 Heatran: 79.25 - 94.11% O-2HKO w/SR
0 SpA CAP Focus Blast vs. 0/4 Heatran: 52.63 - 62.53% 2HKO
0 SpA CAP Scald vs. 0/4 Heatran: 35.29 - 42.1%
Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252/0 CAP: 78.5 - 92.5% OHKO w/SR
Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252/252+ CAP: 57.5 - 67.9% 2HKO w/ SR (87 - 102% over two consecutive hits)
0 SpA CAP Ice Beam vs. 4/0 Latios: 43.7 - 51.7% 2HKO w/SR
252 SpA CAP Ice Beam vs. 4/0 Latios: 55 - 64.9% 2HKO
Choice Specs Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 252/0 CAP: 33.67 - 39.89%
Choice Specs Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 252/252+ CAP: 24.87 - 29.53%
0 SpA CAP Energy Ball vs. 4/0 Rotom-W: 47.1 - 56.19% 2HKO w/SR
Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 0/0 CAP: 30.95 - 36.53%
Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252/0 CAP: 25.9 - 30.56%
Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252/252+ CAP: 18.91 - 22.53%
0 SpA CAP Thunderbolt vs. 0/4 Starmie: 62.06 - 73.56% 2HKO
0 SpA CAP Energy Ball vs. 0/4 Starmie: 52.1 - 62.06% 2HKO
Timid Heatran Earth Power vs. 252/252+ CAP: 72.53 - 86.01% OHKO w/SR
0 SpA CAP Earth Power vs. 0/4 Heatran: 79.25 - 94.11% O-2HKO w/SR
0 SpA CAP Focus Blast vs. 0/4 Heatran: 52.63 - 62.53% 2HKO
0 SpA CAP Scald vs. 0/4 Heatran: 35.29 - 42.1%
Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252/0 CAP: 78.5 - 92.5% OHKO w/SR
Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252/252+ CAP: 57.5 - 67.9% 2HKO w/ SR (87 - 102% over two consecutive hits)
0 SpA CAP Ice Beam vs. 4/0 Latios: 43.7 - 51.7% 2HKO w/SR
252 SpA CAP Ice Beam vs. 4/0 Latios: 55 - 64.9% 2HKO
Final Comments:
As I said earlier, I want CAP to really catch its niche in its diverse movepool, to make it stand out from the raw-damage, high output offensive Firemons of OU. This spread does its best to accomodate for strategic coverage options and for reliable STABs/statuses at the same time. It's more of an exercise in defensive finesse, as it has neither the ability to sweep nor wall but can still manage to make itself useful despite the faults of the typing. The SR weakness is going to limit CAP's time in battle much of the time, meaning switching in and out will be a burden on the CAP user; by making the CAP more of an urgent threat (higher Spe, tricky SE coverage), we are giving it a specific path to success without relying too much on any one element to "save" the typing (thus allowing later stages of CAP's design to further shape CAP's playstyle and effectiveness).
Going to respond to this since it's relevant to a lot of the spreads.
I say this in more detail in my submission post, but 78-89 is a very peculiar Speed range. In fact, I could include everything up to and including 100 in there, but 89 is the highest that's outrun by Timid Heatran without resorting to +Spe nature (I know you did that on purpose, Korski, lol). You may have noticed that Pokémon in this range usually don't run a +Spe nature. In fact, some of them do potentially gain some amount of advantage over Heatran by running +Spe, but they don't take that opportunity. Based on last month's stats, about 55% of offensive Heatran use Timid (perhaps going down to about 48% if Choice Scarf sets are all assumed Timid and removed), so the opportunity is real. I really wonder if CAP 3 would take that opportunity where others did not, and this is a good chance to find out.
I've considered that a naturally faster CAP 3 might end up unnecessarily warping Heatran's metagame behaviour for the sole purpose of checking CAP 3. However, to prevent this entirely you'd need to make it so that Modest Heatran outruns Timid CAP 3: base 65 Speed or less. Plus, as we've just seen, Heatran often runs Timid anyway, possibly due to liking the extra Speed for Sunny Day / Magma Storm / Flame Charge, or possibly just because it wants to laugh at Multiscale-broken Adamant Choice Band Dragonite using Outrage. In the end, we WILL warp Heatran's tendencies unless CAP 3 is really slow, but imo it's not a given that CAP 3 will max its Speed just to get past offensive Heatran.
Alright, that's a lot of good work everyone. What I'll do now is post up a 24 hour warning. If you have something to finish up or you want to do a few last-minute modifications, you have that option now.
It would be very helpful to me if everyone could mark finished spreads with Final Submission.
A big thanks to all the CAP members who contributed spreads.
Slate shortlist:
I feel these represent a great range of abilities and have appropriate trade-offs for each spread. None of them is really overpowering either, and could work in the context of a strong secondary ability or with just Dry Skin as the main attraction.
It would be very helpful to me if everyone could mark finished spreads with Final Submission.
A big thanks to all the CAP members who contributed spreads.
Slate shortlist:
Code:
Submitter - Spread - BSR
skr1214 - 60 / 61 / 140 / 108 / 120 / 71 - 309.62
FlareBlitz - 80 / 60 / 110 / 135 / 110 / 75 - 331.82
Rising_Dusk - 95 / 45 / 83 / 131 / 105 / 76 - 309.37
Scoopapa - 120 / 90 / 65 / 125 / 90 / 60 - 299.42
bugmaniacbob - 110 / 120 / 90 / 110 / 90 / 60 - 325.91
Steamroll - 97 / 64 / 90 / 125 / 105 / 74 - 326.74
Korski - 91 / 60 / 94 / 105 / 116 / 89 - 331.76I feel these represent a great range of abilities and have appropriate trade-offs for each spread. None of them is really overpowering either, and could work in the context of a strong secondary ability or with just Dry Skin as the main attraction.
I edited and expanded my post to include more explanations for why I didn't include a higher atk stat (allows Coil sets to beat Tyranitar / Scarf Terrakion too easily) and more calcs / reasoning for the high SpA stat. Good luck, everyone : )
That's a good point that I didn't really think of. A CAP3 with between base 78-89 Speed would have to choose between outspeeding stuff like Heatran / Rotom-W or having greater power. Having offensive Heatran remain a check to Modest CAP 3 would probably be good enough so long as we give CAP 3 a reason to use Modest instead. Thus, higher base Speed would help CAP 3 check more threats, but with the consequence of not being able to break through defensive pokemon as much. I think this higher base Speed would help to support greater diversity in CAP 3's roles, so for now I'm going to support Korski.
Asylum_Rhapsody
Guest
Final Submission
HP: 45
Atk: 105
Def: 100
SpA: 50
SpD: 165
Spe: 90
PT: 111.2128 (Above Average)
ST: 184.5929 (Excellent)
PS: 159.5902 (Very Good)
SS: 84.6361 (Below Average)
ODB: -4.5462 (Slightly biased towards defensive)
PSB: 0.2305 (Slightly biased towards physical)
BSR: 291.7005 (Good)
BST: 555
Wow, that ended up coming out a lot crazier than I expected it to. This is my first real attempt at a stat spread submission, but I feel like I worked pretty hard on it and that it's significantly different enough from the other submissions, so I hope that it gets considered. Let the explanations begin:
Physical Tankiness: (HP 45, Def 100)
I wanted to make sure that our Rock and Ground Pokemon would put the fear into CAP3. With these stats, even with a Defense-boosting Nature and maxed-out Defense EVs:
* Dugtrio, Landorus, Mamoswine, and even Defensive Donphan and Defensive Gliscor will 1HKO with Earthquake.
* Even Tank Gastrodon has a chance (91.2%-107.5%) to 1HKO with Earthquake.
* Terrakion and Tyranitar (both Jolly, maxed Attack EVs, choice scarf) 2HKO this spread with Stone Edge, even taking into account Leftovers recovery and Dry Skin recovery in rain, and that's even if CAP3 uses Will-O-Wisp before the second hit.
* Under identical conditions, Dragonite (with maxed Attack EVs, even if Jolly and holding Leftovers) will 2HKO with Earthquake.
The only issues with the spread come from some of the oddball Water-types that we plan to threaten, Water-types with good physical attacks that can hit us super-effectively. If we decide to be a special wall, with a Special-Defense-boosting nature and maxed out Special Defense EVs and HP EVs:
* Shell Smash Cloyster holding a Life Orb has a chance to 1HKO with Rock Blast (98.6%-119%) without even needing to Shell Smash (which may be wise to skip considering the risk of being burned).
* Choice Band, Choice Scarf, and Offensive Dragon Dance Gyarados will all 1HKO with Earthquake.
* Choice Specs Starmie will 1HKO with Psyshock (that jerk).
Special Tankiness: (HP 45, SpD 165)
The decision here was pretty simple. I want this spread to represent more of a wall-type Pokemon, and if we want to wall most Water-types, then we want a super-high Special Tankiness. I actually originally went above the limit to 170, though I can't remember exactly why now. Fortunately, Heatran is still a problem for this spread. Even assuming a Special-Defense-boosting nature and maxed out Special Defense EVs and HP EVs:
* Choice Scarf Heatran, Offensive Heatran with Air Balloon, and Tank Gastrodon will all 2HKO with Earth Power, even taking into account Leftovers recovery and Dry Skin recovery in rain.
* Offensive Heatran with Life Orb has a chance to 1HKO with Earth Power whether Modest (96.6%-114.3%) or Timid (87.1%-103.4%).
* Choice Specs Heatran using Earth Power will 1HKO.
And, of course, I bring proof that this can indeed wall the Water-types that we want it to. Even going with a more physical-wall build, with a Defense-boosting nature and maxed-out HP EVs and Defense EVs:
* Choice Specs Jellicent using Shadow Ball only hits for 35.7-42.2%.
* The best that Modest Choice Specs Politoed can muster is 18.4%-21.8% with Focus Blast.
* Choice Specs Rotom-W using Thunderbolt only hits for 48.3%-57.1%.
* Choice Specs Starmie using Thunderbolt only hit for 28.6%-33.7% (though, it can 2HKO if it carries Psyshock for 80.3%-94.6%).
* The best that even Offensive Tentacruel can do is 10.5%-12.6% with Ice Beam.
* Hydration Tank Vaporeon using Ice Beam hits for 14.3%-17%.
Speed: (90)
At first I had put this at 35 because I wanted Gastrodon to outspeed CAP3, but I realized that wasn't necessary. 90 lets us out-speed Jellicent (to out-speed Taunt), Politoed (to out-speed Hypnosis), Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Scizor (to threaten with Fire attacks). It still allows Gliscor to out-speed us too, which I think is important. We also out-speed Dragonite, Donphan, Tyranitar, and Mamoswine, but many of their sets will still invest in more speed EVs than CAP3 will, and either way, not even getting the opportunity to use Will-O-Wisp will prevent them from threatening us physically.
Special Attack: (50)
Yes, I see that most of the other spreads are making this pretty high, but I have a different idea. The Water-types that we want to threaten tend to be more specially bulky than physically bulky, and having a high Special Attack also means we run the risk of allowing CAP3 to use Hidden Power to easily deal with Pokemon that it should be threatened by. With this Special Attack, even assuming a Special-Attack-boosting Nature and maxed-out Special Attack EVs:
* Using Hidden Power (Grass, 70 BP) fails to threaten Terrakion (31.5%-37.7%) or Donphan (37%-43.8%). Dugtrio takes a bit more (58.8%-69.8%), but it still out-speeds and 1HKOs anyway.
* Using Hidden Power (Fighting, 70 BP) can only do 55%-65.5% against Choice Scarf Tyranitar and Dragon Dance Tyranitar, and that's outside of Sandstorm. It's only 37.4%-44.4% in Sandstorm.
Even a Special Attack stat this low can lead to potential issues, but I don't think that they're worth worrying about considering how much this spread discourages investing in Special Attack:
* Using Hidden Power (Grass, 70 BP) might hurt the ability of Choice Specs Gastrodon to switch in (51.1%-60.5%) considering that CAP3 out-speeds it.
* Using Hidden Power (Ice, 70 BP) does threaten (81.1%-96.2%) AcroBat Gliscor, but Giscor still out-speeds and 1HKOs anyway, and other Gliscor builds are less threatened, taking only 66.7%-79.1%. Hidden Power (Ice) also may threaten Landorus (70.2%-84%), but again, it still out-speeds and 1HKOs anyway.
Attack: (105)
And this where the power comes in. Like I said before, I think that it'll be much easier to threaten those Water-types physically rather than specially. Like Special Defense, I originally went over the limit with this one and had to bring it down when I was trying to make sure the CAP would easily be able to threaten 4x-Fire-weak Pokemon. Even with a neutral Nature and no Attack EVs:
* Using Fire Punch will threaten even Bulky Scizor (49%-59.5%), Physically Defensive Forretress (31.6%-38.4%), and Standard Ferrothorn (37.5%-44.3%).
Problematically, however, even with an Attack-boosting Nature and maxed-out Attack EVs, CAP3 has difficulty harming some Water-types with its Poison-STAB coverage:
* Using Cross Poison only barely hurts Cloyster (17.8%-21.1%), Utility Counter Jellicent (12.7%-14.9%), and non-Offensive Tentacruels (14%-16.8%).
However, we knew that there was very little chance anyway that this CAP would use its Poison STAB. If I had to speculate, I'd say we'll probably end up giving it a strong physical Electric coverage move (super-effective against Water-types, but our Ground-type checks are immune), but even without that, I think that with this spread, our CAP will be able to beat Water-types simply by stalling. It does make a fantastic wall, after all, being immune to both the Poison and Burn statuses and regaining HP in rain. Really, just look back up at the calculations from Special Tankiness and see how much Water-types can really do to fight back.
As a final note about this attack stat, even with an Attack-boosting Nature and maxed-out Attack EVs, none of our threats are eliminated:
* Using Fire Punch does not threaten even Offensive Donphan (11.7%-14.1%), AcroBat Gliscor (14.8%-17.9%), or Expert Belt Landorus (18.2%-21.6%).
* It might put a dent in Dugtrio (40.3%-50.9%), but it still out-speeds and 1HKOs anyway.
EDIT: Just to make sure it gets addressed to hopefully minimize the possible reactions of "165 SpD? lol, no", I put it that high because that's what's necessary to achieve the desired Special Tankiness while having such a low HP. When I was creating this spread, the first thing I wanted to do was to make sure that its Physical Tankiness was such that it would still definitely be threatened by the Pokemon that are supposed to threaten it, so the decision behind the 45 HP and 100 Def came before I even made a guess as to what SpD that HP stat would require to reach the desired Special Tankiness. You might ask why I went with such low HP rather than a lower Def if only mediocre Physical Tankiness was my goal. Well, my reasoning behind that is similar to srk's in that I like the side effects that come with low HP, particularly the appeal of Pain Split as a method of recovery, how it prevents Pokemon like Ferrothorn from benefiting too much from using Leech Seed against it, and in general how it trolls HP-draining moves like (lol) Giga Drain.
HP: 45
Atk: 105
Def: 100
SpA: 50
SpD: 165
Spe: 90
PT: 111.2128 (Above Average)
ST: 184.5929 (Excellent)
PS: 159.5902 (Very Good)
SS: 84.6361 (Below Average)
ODB: -4.5462 (Slightly biased towards defensive)
PSB: 0.2305 (Slightly biased towards physical)
BSR: 291.7005 (Good)
BST: 555
Wow, that ended up coming out a lot crazier than I expected it to. This is my first real attempt at a stat spread submission, but I feel like I worked pretty hard on it and that it's significantly different enough from the other submissions, so I hope that it gets considered. Let the explanations begin:
Physical Tankiness: (HP 45, Def 100)
I wanted to make sure that our Rock and Ground Pokemon would put the fear into CAP3. With these stats, even with a Defense-boosting Nature and maxed-out Defense EVs:
* Dugtrio, Landorus, Mamoswine, and even Defensive Donphan and Defensive Gliscor will 1HKO with Earthquake.
* Even Tank Gastrodon has a chance (91.2%-107.5%) to 1HKO with Earthquake.
* Terrakion and Tyranitar (both Jolly, maxed Attack EVs, choice scarf) 2HKO this spread with Stone Edge, even taking into account Leftovers recovery and Dry Skin recovery in rain, and that's even if CAP3 uses Will-O-Wisp before the second hit.
* Under identical conditions, Dragonite (with maxed Attack EVs, even if Jolly and holding Leftovers) will 2HKO with Earthquake.
The only issues with the spread come from some of the oddball Water-types that we plan to threaten, Water-types with good physical attacks that can hit us super-effectively. If we decide to be a special wall, with a Special-Defense-boosting nature and maxed out Special Defense EVs and HP EVs:
* Shell Smash Cloyster holding a Life Orb has a chance to 1HKO with Rock Blast (98.6%-119%) without even needing to Shell Smash (which may be wise to skip considering the risk of being burned).
* Choice Band, Choice Scarf, and Offensive Dragon Dance Gyarados will all 1HKO with Earthquake.
* Choice Specs Starmie will 1HKO with Psyshock (that jerk).
Special Tankiness: (HP 45, SpD 165)
The decision here was pretty simple. I want this spread to represent more of a wall-type Pokemon, and if we want to wall most Water-types, then we want a super-high Special Tankiness. I actually originally went above the limit to 170, though I can't remember exactly why now. Fortunately, Heatran is still a problem for this spread. Even assuming a Special-Defense-boosting nature and maxed out Special Defense EVs and HP EVs:
* Choice Scarf Heatran, Offensive Heatran with Air Balloon, and Tank Gastrodon will all 2HKO with Earth Power, even taking into account Leftovers recovery and Dry Skin recovery in rain.
* Offensive Heatran with Life Orb has a chance to 1HKO with Earth Power whether Modest (96.6%-114.3%) or Timid (87.1%-103.4%).
* Choice Specs Heatran using Earth Power will 1HKO.
And, of course, I bring proof that this can indeed wall the Water-types that we want it to. Even going with a more physical-wall build, with a Defense-boosting nature and maxed-out HP EVs and Defense EVs:
* Choice Specs Jellicent using Shadow Ball only hits for 35.7-42.2%.
* The best that Modest Choice Specs Politoed can muster is 18.4%-21.8% with Focus Blast.
* Choice Specs Rotom-W using Thunderbolt only hits for 48.3%-57.1%.
* Choice Specs Starmie using Thunderbolt only hit for 28.6%-33.7% (though, it can 2HKO if it carries Psyshock for 80.3%-94.6%).
* The best that even Offensive Tentacruel can do is 10.5%-12.6% with Ice Beam.
* Hydration Tank Vaporeon using Ice Beam hits for 14.3%-17%.
Speed: (90)
At first I had put this at 35 because I wanted Gastrodon to outspeed CAP3, but I realized that wasn't necessary. 90 lets us out-speed Jellicent (to out-speed Taunt), Politoed (to out-speed Hypnosis), Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Scizor (to threaten with Fire attacks). It still allows Gliscor to out-speed us too, which I think is important. We also out-speed Dragonite, Donphan, Tyranitar, and Mamoswine, but many of their sets will still invest in more speed EVs than CAP3 will, and either way, not even getting the opportunity to use Will-O-Wisp will prevent them from threatening us physically.
Special Attack: (50)
Yes, I see that most of the other spreads are making this pretty high, but I have a different idea. The Water-types that we want to threaten tend to be more specially bulky than physically bulky, and having a high Special Attack also means we run the risk of allowing CAP3 to use Hidden Power to easily deal with Pokemon that it should be threatened by. With this Special Attack, even assuming a Special-Attack-boosting Nature and maxed-out Special Attack EVs:
* Using Hidden Power (Grass, 70 BP) fails to threaten Terrakion (31.5%-37.7%) or Donphan (37%-43.8%). Dugtrio takes a bit more (58.8%-69.8%), but it still out-speeds and 1HKOs anyway.
* Using Hidden Power (Fighting, 70 BP) can only do 55%-65.5% against Choice Scarf Tyranitar and Dragon Dance Tyranitar, and that's outside of Sandstorm. It's only 37.4%-44.4% in Sandstorm.
Even a Special Attack stat this low can lead to potential issues, but I don't think that they're worth worrying about considering how much this spread discourages investing in Special Attack:
* Using Hidden Power (Grass, 70 BP) might hurt the ability of Choice Specs Gastrodon to switch in (51.1%-60.5%) considering that CAP3 out-speeds it.
* Using Hidden Power (Ice, 70 BP) does threaten (81.1%-96.2%) AcroBat Gliscor, but Giscor still out-speeds and 1HKOs anyway, and other Gliscor builds are less threatened, taking only 66.7%-79.1%. Hidden Power (Ice) also may threaten Landorus (70.2%-84%), but again, it still out-speeds and 1HKOs anyway.
Attack: (105)
And this where the power comes in. Like I said before, I think that it'll be much easier to threaten those Water-types physically rather than specially. Like Special Defense, I originally went over the limit with this one and had to bring it down when I was trying to make sure the CAP would easily be able to threaten 4x-Fire-weak Pokemon. Even with a neutral Nature and no Attack EVs:
* Using Fire Punch will threaten even Bulky Scizor (49%-59.5%), Physically Defensive Forretress (31.6%-38.4%), and Standard Ferrothorn (37.5%-44.3%).
Problematically, however, even with an Attack-boosting Nature and maxed-out Attack EVs, CAP3 has difficulty harming some Water-types with its Poison-STAB coverage:
* Using Cross Poison only barely hurts Cloyster (17.8%-21.1%), Utility Counter Jellicent (12.7%-14.9%), and non-Offensive Tentacruels (14%-16.8%).
However, we knew that there was very little chance anyway that this CAP would use its Poison STAB. If I had to speculate, I'd say we'll probably end up giving it a strong physical Electric coverage move (super-effective against Water-types, but our Ground-type checks are immune), but even without that, I think that with this spread, our CAP will be able to beat Water-types simply by stalling. It does make a fantastic wall, after all, being immune to both the Poison and Burn statuses and regaining HP in rain. Really, just look back up at the calculations from Special Tankiness and see how much Water-types can really do to fight back.
As a final note about this attack stat, even with an Attack-boosting Nature and maxed-out Attack EVs, none of our threats are eliminated:
* Using Fire Punch does not threaten even Offensive Donphan (11.7%-14.1%), AcroBat Gliscor (14.8%-17.9%), or Expert Belt Landorus (18.2%-21.6%).
* It might put a dent in Dugtrio (40.3%-50.9%), but it still out-speeds and 1HKOs anyway.
EDIT: Just to make sure it gets addressed to hopefully minimize the possible reactions of "165 SpD? lol, no", I put it that high because that's what's necessary to achieve the desired Special Tankiness while having such a low HP. When I was creating this spread, the first thing I wanted to do was to make sure that its Physical Tankiness was such that it would still definitely be threatened by the Pokemon that are supposed to threaten it, so the decision behind the 45 HP and 100 Def came before I even made a guess as to what SpD that HP stat would require to reach the desired Special Tankiness. You might ask why I went with such low HP rather than a lower Def if only mediocre Physical Tankiness was my goal. Well, my reasoning behind that is similar to srk's in that I like the side effects that come with low HP, particularly the appeal of Pain Split as a method of recovery, how it prevents Pokemon like Ferrothorn from benefiting too much from using Leech Seed against it, and in general how it trolls HP-draining moves like (lol) Giga Drain.
I'm not sure whether new submissions are still accepted. If not, just ignore this >_<
final submission
final submission
Basestats
HP: 120
Atk: 75
Def: 70
SpA: 110
SpD: 90
Spe: 65
Total: 530
Since we gave CAP3 already a very good ability in dry skin (and it will probably receive another good one), i felt very high stats weren't necessary.
BS-Rating
PS: 94 - Below average (Rank 3)
PT: 142 - Good (Rank 5)
SS: 133 - Good (Rank 5)
ST: 175 - Excellent (Rank 7)
Overall Rating: 295
Moderatly biased towards Defense
Biased towards Special
Offenses (75/110/65)
What sets this apart from many other distributions is the rather low speed. As stated before by others, being fast isn't essentiell for CAP3 to carry out its duty, which is bringing water types to a stop.
I chose 65 Speed because it allows CAP3 to outspeed several bulky waters naturally (Jellicent, Vaporeon, Gastrodon) or with little investment (Politoad, defensive Gyarados and Rotom), if desired.
A bonus of the 65 speed mark is the possibility to hit scizor with its fire stab before it u-turns out, thus discouraging the opponent's scouting game.
On the other side 65 speed insures that any offensive variants of heatran will outspeed unboosted CAP3 even with neutral nature (while CAP3 can decide to outrun defensive versions by sacrifising some bulk).
I might also mention that the speed is absolutly usable for choice scarf sets (if it gets a suitable movepool), as it's just enough to outspeed positiv natured 120s at +1. Think of scarf Tyrannitar, who sits at 61 base.
Next is the 110 base SpA: This prevents CAP3 from becoming too passive. I opted for special, because poison has some very interesting moves in this department, such as acid spray and sludge wave, as well as the awesome fireblast for fire stab (treatening grass and steel types which are commonly seen on rain teams). Therefore i think CAP3 can make good use of its typing's benefits.
While 110 SpA isn't as high as in other spreads, it is enough for fulfilling its job. In my opinion CAP3 should focus on bulky offense, so 110 SpA should do fine for stallbraking (acid spray!) and doing random damage against switch ins (as it walls water types to death).
It also encourages the usage of status moves against foes it can't really hurt directly (another thing we want to achieve with CAP3).
For the attack stat, i chose 75 base, as i dislike the thought of creating a hopeless "dump stat". While 75 Atk doesn't seem like much (starmie has it too lol), it can become absolutly usable in combination with coil and high power attacks such as gunk shot and fireblitz. Not much to say to the attack otherwise, except that giving it a physical water move to abuse rain would make a nice gimmick.
Defenses (120/70/90)
The defenses are rather conventionell. The focus on bulk in combination to the middling speed forces CAP3 to rely especially strong on its typing, which goes great with the concept.
So the HP are standing out of all defensive stats with 120 base (which is at the same time the highest stat in the spread). The reason for this is to give CAP3 a good initial bulk to work with, so it doesn't have to invest into one specific stat on all of its sets (think of spiritomp, bastiodon or, in the extreme, shuckle), therefore widening its ingame possibilities.
Next SpD: Again nothing spectacular. As a pokemon which is supposed to check drizzle teams, a high special defense is almost inevitable. How well 120/90 defenses (coupled to resistances to all common attacking types) work against those teams, everyone who has ever used bulky kyurem should know. Since so many attacking types on rain teams are not very effective against CAP3, it will very seldom lose over 50% with full investment (those attacks will for the most part come from specsed mons or really strong attacks such as stab thunder/hurricane). Combine this with an immunity to burn and toxic, as well as the possibility to heal about 1/5 of its full health every turn, and you have an absolute monster!
70 Defense may let CAP3 seem as a mediocre physical tank, but that's not fully true: if you decide to go into physical defense, CAP3 can actually become bulkier than a vaporeon with the same spread! It might not have that handy hydration-rest-combination, but CAP3 doesn't even need it, because its immune to toxic and burn (yay!) AND can heal 1,5x faster than gliscor or breelom in rain.
Physically bulky sets also gain a great advantage out of the poison typing's resistance to fighting, which is always welcome for a defensive pokemon.
By using the fire component to swifltly burn the opponent's physical attackers, CAP3 again achieves something many other walls wished they could do.
As long as you avoid strong rock type attacks or ground attacks, CAP3 should be more than fine in its niche walling many common physical treats of ou (Breelom, Scizor, Mienshao, some Conkeldurr and Gyarados and more..).
As you see, CAP3 could do very well with this spread, and really doesn't need higher base stats to fulfill its job :D
Some calculations:
0 SpA Cap
- versus some common rain team members
FireBlast in rain vs 248/8 Scizor: 98-117% 1HKO + SR
FireBlast in rain vs 252/168 Ferrothorn: 61-73% 2HKO
Sludgewave vs 0/0 Tornadus: 46-53% 2HKO + SR
Sludgewave vs 4/0 Virizion: 56-65% 2HKO
Sludgewave vs 252/0 Celebi: 55-65% 2HKO
Sludgwave vs 236/0 Breelom: 105-124% OHKO
- CAP3 can actually break any bulky water, this calculaton is just for illustrating the approximate amount of damage
Sludgewave vs 248/0 Jellicent: 27-32% 3HKO (Acid spray + 2x Sludgewave)
Sludgewave vs max+ Jellicent: 19-23% 4HKO (Acid spray + 3x Sludgewave)
252 HP / 252+ SpD Cap
- non of this common special attacks on rain teams can 2HKOs Cap3 in rain (without SR), with only specs tornadus hurricane and specs latios draco meteor coming close to it
Specs 252+ Jellicent ShadowBall: 28-33%
Specs 252 Rotom-W VoltSwitch: 26-30%
Specs 252 Starmie Thunderbolt: 22-27%
LifeOrb 252 Tornadus Hurricane: 45-52%
Specs 252 Tornadus Hurricane: 51-60%
LifeOrb 252 Latios DracoMeteor: 52-60%
Specs 252 Latios DracoMeteor: 60-70%
- its counter still wont have any problems getting past Cap3:
252+ SpA Heatran EarthPower: 75-89% OHKO + SR
LifeOrb 252 SpA Alakazam Psychic: 69-81% 2HKO (+ SR in rain)
4 SpA Gastrodon EarthPower: 63-76% 2HKO (chance to OHKO + SR)
0 Atk Gastrodon Earthquake: 112-132% OHKO
0 Atk Tyranitar StoneEdge: 84-99% OHKO + SR
Band 252 Atk Dugtrio StoneEdge: 71-84% 2HKO (chance to OHKO + SR)
LifeOrb 252+ SpA Cap Hp-Grd: 87-103% OHKO + SR
HP: 120
Atk: 75
Def: 70
SpA: 110
SpD: 90
Spe: 65
Total: 530
Since we gave CAP3 already a very good ability in dry skin (and it will probably receive another good one), i felt very high stats weren't necessary.
BS-Rating
PS: 94 - Below average (Rank 3)
PT: 142 - Good (Rank 5)
SS: 133 - Good (Rank 5)
ST: 175 - Excellent (Rank 7)
Overall Rating: 295
Moderatly biased towards Defense
Biased towards Special
Offenses (75/110/65)
What sets this apart from many other distributions is the rather low speed. As stated before by others, being fast isn't essentiell for CAP3 to carry out its duty, which is bringing water types to a stop.
I chose 65 Speed because it allows CAP3 to outspeed several bulky waters naturally (Jellicent, Vaporeon, Gastrodon) or with little investment (Politoad, defensive Gyarados and Rotom), if desired.
A bonus of the 65 speed mark is the possibility to hit scizor with its fire stab before it u-turns out, thus discouraging the opponent's scouting game.
On the other side 65 speed insures that any offensive variants of heatran will outspeed unboosted CAP3 even with neutral nature (while CAP3 can decide to outrun defensive versions by sacrifising some bulk).
I might also mention that the speed is absolutly usable for choice scarf sets (if it gets a suitable movepool), as it's just enough to outspeed positiv natured 120s at +1. Think of scarf Tyrannitar, who sits at 61 base.
Next is the 110 base SpA: This prevents CAP3 from becoming too passive. I opted for special, because poison has some very interesting moves in this department, such as acid spray and sludge wave, as well as the awesome fireblast for fire stab (treatening grass and steel types which are commonly seen on rain teams). Therefore i think CAP3 can make good use of its typing's benefits.
While 110 SpA isn't as high as in other spreads, it is enough for fulfilling its job. In my opinion CAP3 should focus on bulky offense, so 110 SpA should do fine for stallbraking (acid spray!) and doing random damage against switch ins (as it walls water types to death).
It also encourages the usage of status moves against foes it can't really hurt directly (another thing we want to achieve with CAP3).
For the attack stat, i chose 75 base, as i dislike the thought of creating a hopeless "dump stat". While 75 Atk doesn't seem like much (starmie has it too lol), it can become absolutly usable in combination with coil and high power attacks such as gunk shot and fireblitz. Not much to say to the attack otherwise, except that giving it a physical water move to abuse rain would make a nice gimmick.
Defenses (120/70/90)
The defenses are rather conventionell. The focus on bulk in combination to the middling speed forces CAP3 to rely especially strong on its typing, which goes great with the concept.
So the HP are standing out of all defensive stats with 120 base (which is at the same time the highest stat in the spread). The reason for this is to give CAP3 a good initial bulk to work with, so it doesn't have to invest into one specific stat on all of its sets (think of spiritomp, bastiodon or, in the extreme, shuckle), therefore widening its ingame possibilities.
Next SpD: Again nothing spectacular. As a pokemon which is supposed to check drizzle teams, a high special defense is almost inevitable. How well 120/90 defenses (coupled to resistances to all common attacking types) work against those teams, everyone who has ever used bulky kyurem should know. Since so many attacking types on rain teams are not very effective against CAP3, it will very seldom lose over 50% with full investment (those attacks will for the most part come from specsed mons or really strong attacks such as stab thunder/hurricane). Combine this with an immunity to burn and toxic, as well as the possibility to heal about 1/5 of its full health every turn, and you have an absolute monster!
70 Defense may let CAP3 seem as a mediocre physical tank, but that's not fully true: if you decide to go into physical defense, CAP3 can actually become bulkier than a vaporeon with the same spread! It might not have that handy hydration-rest-combination, but CAP3 doesn't even need it, because its immune to toxic and burn (yay!) AND can heal 1,5x faster than gliscor or breelom in rain.
Physically bulky sets also gain a great advantage out of the poison typing's resistance to fighting, which is always welcome for a defensive pokemon.
By using the fire component to swifltly burn the opponent's physical attackers, CAP3 again achieves something many other walls wished they could do.
As long as you avoid strong rock type attacks or ground attacks, CAP3 should be more than fine in its niche walling many common physical treats of ou (Breelom, Scizor, Mienshao, some Conkeldurr and Gyarados and more..).
As you see, CAP3 could do very well with this spread, and really doesn't need higher base stats to fulfill its job :D
Some calculations:
0 SpA Cap
- versus some common rain team members
FireBlast in rain vs 248/8 Scizor: 98-117% 1HKO + SR
FireBlast in rain vs 252/168 Ferrothorn: 61-73% 2HKO
Sludgewave vs 0/0 Tornadus: 46-53% 2HKO + SR
Sludgewave vs 4/0 Virizion: 56-65% 2HKO
Sludgewave vs 252/0 Celebi: 55-65% 2HKO
Sludgwave vs 236/0 Breelom: 105-124% OHKO
- CAP3 can actually break any bulky water, this calculaton is just for illustrating the approximate amount of damage
Sludgewave vs 248/0 Jellicent: 27-32% 3HKO (Acid spray + 2x Sludgewave)
Sludgewave vs max+ Jellicent: 19-23% 4HKO (Acid spray + 3x Sludgewave)
252 HP / 252+ SpD Cap
- non of this common special attacks on rain teams can 2HKOs Cap3 in rain (without SR), with only specs tornadus hurricane and specs latios draco meteor coming close to it
Specs 252+ Jellicent ShadowBall: 28-33%
Specs 252 Rotom-W VoltSwitch: 26-30%
Specs 252 Starmie Thunderbolt: 22-27%
LifeOrb 252 Tornadus Hurricane: 45-52%
Specs 252 Tornadus Hurricane: 51-60%
LifeOrb 252 Latios DracoMeteor: 52-60%
Specs 252 Latios DracoMeteor: 60-70%
- its counter still wont have any problems getting past Cap3:
252+ SpA Heatran EarthPower: 75-89% OHKO + SR
LifeOrb 252 SpA Alakazam Psychic: 69-81% 2HKO (+ SR in rain)
4 SpA Gastrodon EarthPower: 63-76% 2HKO (chance to OHKO + SR)
0 Atk Gastrodon Earthquake: 112-132% OHKO
0 Atk Tyranitar StoneEdge: 84-99% OHKO + SR
Band 252 Atk Dugtrio StoneEdge: 71-84% 2HKO (chance to OHKO + SR)
LifeOrb 252+ SpA Cap Hp-Grd: 87-103% OHKO + SR
I'm sorry. I'm sure to you guys it looked perfectly fine before, but this makes the chart a lot easier to read to me O_O
Sonic, the values in your chart are wrong. For example, this is rising_dusk's submission: 95 HP / 45 Atk / 83 Def / 131 SpA / 105 SpD / 76 Spe
You have it written as: 95 HP/ 45 Atk/ 131 Def/ 83 SpA/ 105 SpD/ 76 Spe
I don't know for certain if this is just in dusk's, but it looks like you mixed up Def and SpA.
You have it written as: 95 HP/ 45 Atk/ 131 Def/ 83 SpA/ 105 SpD/ 76 Spe
I don't know for certain if this is just in dusk's, but it looks like you mixed up Def and SpA.
thx fixed
Weird how I didn't notice the shortlist until now. Anyway, my submission is pretty boxed in, but at the same time, I think that the Speed is significant enough to distinguish it from Rising_Dusk's spread (plus, the stat ratings are all a bit inferior and the SpA is lower), and that the SpA is significant enough to distinguish it from Korski's. I've considered trying to make my submission more different from the others in some way, but it mostly requires moves that I wouldn't agree with making. The only thing I can think of is to leech off the Atk to bump up the Spe or SpA a bit, but I feel that the Atk is low enough without looking unrealistic and it still *does* make physical sets a bit plausible (though FlareBlitz mentioned that more than I'm willing to).
Regardless of what happens, may the best spread win :)
Regardless of what happens, may the best spread win :)
So does this mean, that capefeather's submission is out?!
It was my favourite spread from the beginning (D:>), and I really liked those rounded stats ... not unrealistically high nor extremely biased, leaving the player to optimate them for his individuall purposes
It was my favourite spread from the beginning (D:>), and I really liked those rounded stats ... not unrealistically high nor extremely biased, leaving the player to optimate them for his individuall purposes
Just a note as we move on. For whatever reason, my username is often abbreviated by people as skr. Both here and PO/PS/etc. I don't know why. Maybe I suffer from Quixote syndrome like Mos-Quitoxe.
But yeah, if mine is slated, I would like my name right. :p
But yeah, if mine is slated, I would like my name right. :p
OK so it's been 24 hours. I'm going with the shortlisted slate. It provides an excellent combination of different spreads with their own style.
Note that there were many more good spreads, I simply selected the ones I felt most representative of what we wanted to achieve.
Note that there were many more good spreads, I simply selected the ones I felt most representative of what we wanted to achieve.
I support this set fully. I really like the idea of making it a faster, physically based (offensively), Pokemon. Personally, I dislike the idea of making this Pokemon specially offensive (which is why this is the only stat spread that I support) as it would have a much harder time threatening bulky-waters (unless we give it massive special attack or powerful coverage moves.)
Also, you issues with being weak to certain offensive waters aren't really issues at all as we are (or at least I think we are) trying to stop bulky waters, not offensive waters.
EDIT:
Deck, your evil. Posting while I'm typing this.
- Status