CAP 30 - Part 3 - Concept Assessment 2

[Jewvia]

Priority is a weird one that I think is really reliant on typing. Personally, I don't really like it that much as it is sort of vague and could really be lumped in as more of a way of accomplishing a form's role than a role unto itself, but if I had to pick one, I would choose the Base form in order to keep our typing options more open.

I'd like to disagree with this one, and say that I think this role is better suited for 30i. With the exception of Extreme Speed and Sucker Punch Dragapult, every Pokemon in that compendium under Priority use STAB Priority. Those which don't are higher BP moves rather than the more common 40BP you see on moves like Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet, and Shadow Sneak. Even with Tinted Lens, an off-STAB priority move is just going to graze the opponent unless we lock into into exactly some specific moves, which in turn would cause strain on both the other form as well as the movepool stage. Given the variety of priority moves, we have 7 different typings that have access to common priority moves, and then another 2 in the signatures Accelrock and First Impression. With that, half of the typings in the game have access to STAB priority, so I don't think that we are limiting ourselves at all.

That being said, I agree with the rest. The pivot needs a better item, the cleaner wants our item, and the utility wallbreaker can go either way.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

I think Weather, (particularly for Sun/Sea, but also Snow) is a very fair shout for a Tinted Lens user, even if it cannot self set as it adds to the role compression of that ability.

Sun and Sea both inherently offer the equivalent of a +1 boost to Fire/Water moves while Hail gives perfect accuracy for Blizzard rather than relying on Ice Beam, as well as bonus Chip damage.

Tinted Lens supports Blizzard spam by allowing what resists it has to be hit neutrally, and has space to fit something potebtially team supportive, whether as a Secondary setter, or another vector of Screens, or maybe healing/cleric role. A Sun Boosted Neutral Fire Blast or Eruption is no joke. Sun has its own supporting caste with Synthesis/Growth/Solar Beam, and Sea has good coverage options with perfect accuracy Hurricane and Thunder, so isn't reliant on Water STABs either.

In short Tinted Lens can operate with only 2 attack moves due to Weather Damage boost improving their capabilities, leaving 1-2 slots free for a variety of weather dependent or generic supports/pivots.

Having this on the version free to select an item (30b?) means that it will also be able to utilise Choice Items to aid damage potential which further improves Tinted Lens viability and synergises with Choice Items downside of no flexibility.

I think that operating in this manner suggests a bulkier, slightly slower mon. Going second means your weather is activated last if both self set, and if an opponent does switch, the speed investment is wasted as you go second anyway.

I've not included Sand, primarily because the boost it can provide is chip and boosting Rock type SpDef, without empowering the offensive aspect to support Tinted Lens, and Sand is a rather strongly optimized concept already.

On the discussion of coverage, I cant help but feel that we can only really discuss what pokemon we want to have primary utilisation of Tinted Lens against first, then we can determine the incidentals who are going to be Checked/Threatened (assuming that STAB is affecting the intended Tinted Lens targets) by our STABs, and then finally, the coverage can be leveraged to help take down the intented Tinted Lens targets.

For me, this suggests targeting fragile pokemon who do not really want to switch into neutral attacks, like say Dragapult or Weavile, and then having some coverage to take them on. E.g The threat for Dragapult to get hit by say a neutral FWG attack and know it might face a Sucker Punch or a Weavile that might get Vacuum Punched while its own priority is not being enough to OHKO. These suggestions highlight examples of maintaining momentum through Tinted Lens

 

[Wulfanator]

With only a few posts commenting on forms and most echoing other user’s thoughts. It is probably safe to announce this thread will close in 24 hours.

Here is the slate I have put together from the commentary so far.

Choice User 30b
Offensive Pivot 30b
Utility Wallbreaker 30b
Late-Game Cleaner 30i
Utility Wallbreaker 30i

These options have seen substantial conversation and are paired with the forms considered better suited for the role. As you can see, priority is absent from slate since it is considered an additional element of a mon and not a primary role. I went ahead and added Utility Wallbreaker for both forms since users were indifferent on the allocated form. Feel free to provide any last-minute thoughts you have if there are options you take issue with or think are missing despite seeing conversation.

 

[Pipotchi]

With only a few posts commenting on forms and most echoing other user’s thoughts. It is probably safe to announce this thread will close in 24 hours.

Here is the slate I have put together from the commentary so far.

Choice User 30b
Offensive Pivot 30b
Utility Wallbreaker 30b
Late-Game Cleaner 30i
Utility Wallbreaker 30i

These options have seen substantial conversation and are paired with the forms considered better suited for the role. As you can see, priority is absent from slate since it is considered an additional element of a mon and not a primary role. I went ahead and added Utility Wallbreaker for both forms since users were indifferent on the allocated form. Feel free to provide any last-minute thoughts you have if there are options you take issue with or think are missing despite seeing conversation.

Fine with anything really, but can you add some commentary/examples to those options so I know exactly what I'm voting for? For instance, does Choice user extend to choice scarf or is it just band/specs, and what exactly does Utility Wallbreaker mean? I cant really get a solid picture of that from the thread but I'm guessing it could be anything from Melmetal (uses status move alongside wallbreaking) to Weavile (utility move as an attack)? I'm finding that one particularly nebulous. If it is then fine, but if there's a more tight definition that these have landed on then it would be cool to know before voting.

 

[Wulfanator]

can you add some commentary/examples to those options so I know exactly what I'm voting for?

Sure. I can provide some examples as to what I see being eligible under each of these roles. However, these are just my personal thoughts. I am also very busy at the moment, so apologies if it does not answer all of the questions you may have. This was a tad rushed.

Choice User 30b
This would yield a pokemon who’s strength is most apparent when used in conjunction with a choice item. I think all choice items are available for this route, but specs/band are the ones most users will acknowledge because of Tinted Lens. Existing pokemon are not great 1-to-1 comparisons since users might just go slap Tinted Lens on them in the damage calc and conclude “this is broken.” The three potential result I would anticipate with this route are

• Fast + Frail (similar to Dragapult, Syclant, and Weavile)
• Slow + Tanky (similar to Melmetal)
• Well-Rounded (similar to Jumbao, Tapu Lele, and Victini)

Offensive Pivot 30b
This mon primarily wants to use its offensive capabilities to force the opponent into switching by threatening KOs. This then provides CAP30 an opportunity to capitalize on it by pivoting out itself. This does not necessitate CAP30 have access to pivot moves, but it would help. I think Zeraora and Krilowatt are the best examples of mons that use offensive pivoting as a primary function. Landorus-T and Equilibra are less obvious examples of how to build an offensive pivot, but both would still provide strong final products should we choose to mirror them.

Utility Wallbreaker 30b/30i
Given that setup is no longer being considered for this project due to the risk it poses, these routes would rely heavily on raw power to break fatter mons. Similar to offensive pivots, this type of mon would be forcing out the opponent by threatening a KO, but would be using utility moves to better position the entire team for success. Twave Melmetal, Scarf Knock+Defog Kartana, and Taunt+Toxic Heatran are all potential ways of achieving this type of role. This would make hazard setting, hazard removal, status infliction, cleric support, and item manipulation in the forms of knock off and trick all forms of utility I can see being considered. After writing this, I could see an argument for dropping Utility Wallbreaker 30b since it risks just falling down the path of Choice user 30b.

Late-Game Cleaner 30i
Lastly, late-game cleaner would probably yield a less powerful product compared to the other roles available. Cleaners/revenge killers typically prefer the opposing team be softened before they enter the battle and start threatening KOs. This can be achieved with strong priority, great speed, or even a combination of the two. Pokémon like Dragapult are able to break and clean in the same slot, but I think making a mon that is a middling breaker is an easier way for us to not make a difficult mon to balance.

 

[Astra]

I'm thinking ahead a little bit, but since priority as a role by itself has been officially dropped, I would like to stress that it shouldn't be removed entire as a main discussion point. I can argue that every single one of these choices on the slate can benefit from priority one way or another, and I think we should have a discussion on whether or not we should give whatever role we choose some form of it. It obviously doesn't need to be at this exact moment, but regardless, I think it's an important topic to touch a little bit on.

 

[sneakyjeans]

After writing this, I could see an argument for dropping Utility Wallbreaker 30b since it risks just falling down the path of Choice user 30b.

I think the desire to run a choice item would be present for the base forme if it has Tinted Lens in almost any situation, including Offensive Pivot 30b. Having a pivoting move on a Choice set is fairly common, with things like Specs Dragapult or Band Barraskewda as examples. These might not quite fit with Offensive Pivot as a role, but simply having a pivoting move like U-Turn or Flip Turn with other options is not enough to detract from the appeal of a Choice item, in particular with the strength Tinted Lens brings. We should keep in mind any base forme will likely have a viable Choice set if it has any kind of offensive presence.

This isn‘t necessarily a bad thing, Melmetal proves that you can have a Choice option and a Utility Breaker option on the same Pokémon without becoming overpowered, but we will need to account for Choice power in stats and movepool regardless of assigning a “Choice” role in this stage. I don’t think it needs to be dropped from the slate, but we shouldn’t assume in a situation where Choice doesn’t win and Utility Wallbreaker 30b does, that it won‘t be running one anyway.

 

[Wulfanator]

With few new posts commenting on the slate, slate will remain the same. Slate was separated by form (30b and 30i) and then organized alphabetically.

Choice User 30b
Offensive Pivot 30b
Utility Wallbreaker 30b
Late-Game Cleaner 30i
Utility Wallbreaker 30i

You will be voting on role and form in the same poll. Remember that 30b is the base form and 30i is the item-locked form.

At the request of pip, I provided some explanations and examples as to what types of products could be for each of these roles.

Explanation and Examples

Choice User 30b
This would yield a pokemon who’s strength is most apparent when used in conjunction with a choice item. I think all choice items are available for this route, but specs/band are the ones most users will acknowledge because of Tinted Lens. Existing pokemon are not great 1-to-1 comparisons since users might just go slap Tinted Lens on them in the damage calc and conclude “this is broken.” The three potential result I would anticipate with this route are

• Fast + Frail (similar to Dragapult, Syclant, and Weavile)
• Slow + Tanky (similar to Melmetal)
• Well-Rounded (similar to Jumbao, Tapu Lele, and Victini)

Offensive Pivot 30b
This mon primarily wants to use its offensive capabilities to force the opponent into switching by threatening KOs. This then provides CAP30 an opportunity to capitalize on it by pivoting out itself. This does not necessitate CAP30 have access to pivot moves, but it would help. I think Zeraora and Krilowatt are the best examples of mons that use offensive pivoting as a primary function. Landorus-T and Equilibra are less obvious examples of how to build an offensive pivot, but both would still provide strong final products should we choose to mirror them.

Utility Wallbreaker 30b/30i
Given that setup is no longer being considered for this project due to the risk it poses, these routes would rely heavily on raw power to break fatter mons. Similar to offensive pivots, this type of mon would be forcing out the opponent by threatening a KO, but would be using utility moves to better position the entire team for success instead of pivoting. Twave Melmetal, Scarf Knock+Defog Kartana, and Taunt+Toxic Heatran are all potential ways of achieving this type of role. This would make hazard setting, hazard removal, status infliction, cleric support, and item manipulation in the forms of knock off and trick all forms of utility I can see being considered.

Late-Game Cleaner 30i
Lastly, late-game cleaner would probably yield a less powerful product compared to the other roles available. Cleaners/revenge killers typically prefer the opposing team be softened before they enter the battle and start threatening KOs. This can be achieved with strong priority, great speed, or even a combination of the two. Pokémon like Dragapult are able to break and clean in the same slot, but I think making a mon that is a middling breaker is an easier way for us to not make a difficult mon to balance.

Regarding the concern posed by Estronic, priority is still available for consideration in later stages and has not been removed entirely from this project. We simply agreed that priority is not enough of a role on its own to warrant discussion here.

Once polling has finished, we will move on to typing with spoo.