CAP 30 - Part 5 - Primary Ability Discussion 30b

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LucarioOfLegends

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Alright, my stance on Corrosion has change big time over the past day: it'd be a terrible idea to put it on 30b.

While a nice effect on paper, the entire idea that we can just click Toxic on quite literally everything but Clefable is so disgustingly broken that we would be working overtime to make sure that we don't completely break the meta in half. Salazzle is also not a particularly great metric of balance in regards to Corrosion because it already has methods of dealing with Steel-types via its Fire-STAB, and its stats make it far too frail to actually utilize Corrosoin in the way we are looking to utilize it. On a defensively orientated mon, what reason is there not to click toxic in almost every situation where we can?

There's also the fact that we literally have precedent for a mon that is able to completely bypass Steel-types being unhealthy and obnoxious with Toxic. Both Astrolotl and Equilibra, Pokemon who were very successful against Steel-types, both had Toxic on release, but had to have it nerfed off of them simply because it made them far too overwhelming and unhealthy.

There is no doubt in my mind at this point that a Corrosion 'mon like 30b would put far too much stress on the metagame, and would warp the entire rest of the process as to not break it entirely.
 
I want to talk about Technician for a bit because I think it has a lot of useful application for the future of 30b and by extension 30i.

In terms of STAB we have a fair selection of Physical/Special moves that are boosted by Technician, and many of them have useful effects. This doesn't solve the inherent issue with our mediocre offensive typing, however, and 30i is poised to be way better at STAB spam than we are by virtue of Tinted Lens.

What I like about Technician is how it opens up room to give ourselves powerful coverage moves that 30i would have no interest in using as they'd be too weak for it. I think having an ability which enables us to use moves the other form has no value for would make it much easier to develop stats and movepool later on. I have similar opinions on conditional moved-based boosts like Strong Jaw that enable coverage for 30b which 30i has less incentive for.

  • How does knowing our typing affect abilities that were previously discussed? Which are made more effective by it? Which are made worse? Why?
  • Are there any abilities that didn’t receive much attention in the previous discussion that are now bolstered by our typing?
I don't really have anything new to add. Thick Fat was something I supported a lot in the prior discussion and I still support it as it gives us a unique defensive profile and can let us answer Pokemon we'd struggle vs. otherwise, namely Heatran. I don't think it's as amazing as it sounds, however, as the other Fire-types in the tier are still really threatening us, even Volcarona which on occassion runs Psychic to get past Pex and Argh. I don't know how much valuable interaction with Thick Fat we'd have with our selected typing outside of being a better potential check to Heatran. In spite of this I still find Thick Fat to be a good option: resisting Ice is much better than being weak, and being able to come in and stay in on Fire-type moves is a great asset to have. This is among our safest options available and should help secure 30b a solid defensive niche other Pokemon aren't able to fulfill.

Other options I like are Stamina, Filter, and Compound Eyes/No Guard.

Corrosion
I don't know how to feel about yet. It's a really powerful effect that heavily limits our switch-ins but I feel like it's not terribly effective against faster-paced teams and is outright useless versus some Pokemon: :krilowatt::clefable: can't be damaged by Toxic, :tapu-fini: has Misty Terrain, and :pajantom: can't be statused in general. We can still threaten Clef and Fini with our Poison attacks so they're not the best examples, but my point is that while being able to Toxic Steels and Poisons is very useful, it is not immediately overbearing and can still be met with other forms of counterplay to Toxic. Of the abilities discussed so far however I think it is one of the easiest to completely break, so I'm really torn over whether it's an option we should entertain.
 

snake_rattler

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After thinking about it some, I think Corrosion CAP30b is a valid route to take, but it will narrow CAP30b's focus.

There's also the fact that we literally have precedent for a mon that is able to completely bypass Steel-types being unhealthy and obnoxious with Toxic. Both Astrolotl and Equilibra, Pokemon who were very successful against Steel-types, both had Toxic on release, but had to have it nerfed off of them simply because it made them far too overwhelming and unhealthy.
Astrolotl and Equilibra had options to bypass Steel-types with their STAB options, not because of Toxic. In the case of Corrosion CAP30b, Toxic is the way CAP30 pushes through Steel-types. Thus, based on this analysis, if we want to balance Corrosion on CAP30, we might not be able to give CAP30 strong coverage moves that hit Steel-types. Luckily, because CAP30i has Tinted Lens, it might not need much coverage itself because Tinted Lens Flying-type STAB has excellent coverage on its own.

In response to the Salazzle comparison, I think Estronic points out very well that it's not enough to say that "Salazzle isn't overwhelming; therefore Corrosion CAP30b wouldn't be overwhelming." Others, however, have pointed out that a very bulky CAP30b could potentially spread Toxic too well. Thus, one option we could take on a similar stat build to Salazzle as a starting point and adjust from there.

What I want to say is that we can build with Corrosion CAP30b, and I think it's perhaps one of the strongest (if not the strongest) option we could give CAP30b. However, it's important to acknowledge that Corrosion would narrow down CAP30's focus pretty considerably to a unique but potent niche. In quziel's words, Corrosion would take up a lot of CAP30b's power budget. We would just have to consider that carefully moving forward.
 
Gonna echo Jewvia and bring up a point of order here, regarding what abilities are allowed for consideration. We did talk about this in Ability 1, but I don't think we reached a solid conclusion. I think it would be useful (at least for me) to get a concrete on whether the following are being considered.


1) Download: Genesect was discussed as having explored this pretty well. It did end up getting slated, but did feel like it came out of left field.


2) Thick Fat: M-Venusaur and (to a lesser extent) Mamoswine seem to have explored this ability's capacity to reduce SE damage pretty well already. I do think it has great synergy with Poison/Flying, but the idea seems explored.


3) Water Bubble: Banned for discussion in Ability 1, but I imagine this was (at least partly) to prevent the restrictions on design space. This ability is still stupid strong, but the fact that we have a shitty STAB combo in Poison/Flying balances that a bit.


4) Magic Bounce: I feel pretty confident in saying this has been explored pretty well already. Between M-Sableye, M-Diancie, M-Absol and Hatterene this gen, this ability has seen a lot of high-level play in the past.


5) Serene Grace: Togekiss, Jirachi and Shaymin-Sky basically do this as well as you can. This is another one I think would not fall in the "previously unoptimized" category.

6) Technician: Plenty of stuff has used this well in the past. Heck, Scizor is pretty relevant right now. Breloom and Marshadow made great use of it. Ambipom and Cinccino basically revolve around Technician.


Thoughts on other abilities:
This is kinda cool. Heatran probably shits on us anyway, so an extra fire weakness isn't the end of the world. Knock Off and Uturn are super common, but U-turns are usually pretty weak and we 4x resist them anyway, and a damage reduction on Knock isn't worth losing HDB. Outside of those two moves, the common contact move users in the current meta are Shifu, Weavile, Zeraora, Melmetal, Buzzwole, Dragonite and Rillaboom. The damage reduction on a few of these (we beat Rillaboom and Buzzwole anyway, and Melmetal just sits on us) is super nice. With 100/100 fully invested defenses, Weavile's Triple Axel doesn't even 2HKO (I'm not saying we should aim to beat Weavile). That said, right now those are basically the only mons Fluffy would significantly help against, barring stray Thunder/Ice Punches.
I'll admit it, I'm a fanboy. This also procs on contact moves, but because it's not a damage reduction, it's useful against all contact moves including U-turns, Knocks, and Rapid Spins. On a situational basis, losing HDB/health may be worth denying Torn/Pex/Lotl/Tang Regen. On the flipside, this one is less useful against strong moves because you're not reducing damage. However, you're able to steal abilities on the sac and mitigate sweeps from Scizor, Kartana, Revenankh, Hawlucha, Cawmodore, Blaziken, and weather abusers with contact moves. You're also able to steal useful abilities from defensive mons; besides Regen there's Magic Guard from Clef, Iron Barbs from Ferro, Natural Cure from Blissey, Multiscale from Dragonite, and most importantly, Levitate from Libra's Rapid Spin. If you predict correctly on a Zeraora, you're able to swing a lot of momentum your way.

I'm usually against situational abilities but in this case, the triggers are pretty common and the benefits are great. Poison/Flying resists U-turns and common moves from a few defensive pokemon, and is immune to Toxic, which is often carried. The interaction with Knock Off is constraining, and will have a huge effect on our reliance on Boots. Additionally, we will have to be careful with whether this thing runs contact moves itself, which would cause it to activate the opponent's Wandering Spirit on a following turn.
Good ability. Being weak to the most common multi-hit move and being crit every turn by the second most common is very annoying. Can we retcon our typing to Water/Electric? Anyway, getting +1 on EVERY hit is wild. Paired with recovery, this could go crazy, especially due to the immunity to Toxic. Except for Psychic, the types we are weak to are commonly able to hit from both sides of the spectrum, so that helps with balancing. Our typing is walled by Steel, and the Steels in the meta also hit from both sides. This is a powerful ability, but is straightforward and not difficult to balance. The immunity to Toxic has great synergy.
God damn. What if we just give it Toxic Thread instead of Toxic? Every team would need a dedicated Toxic switch-in or a cleric. Plus the best mon in the meta has Hex? Yikes. I don't think it's impossible to balance, but it would take a lot of tiptoeing. I think it's best we leave this one alone.
The attacks that Filter helps against are probably too strong to do anything about.
Less keen on this one than I was for Ability 1. We lose to common Defoggers in Corv, Skarm and Zapdos. Due to the rock weakness and the threat of HDB being knocked, we might be in situations where want the opponent to Defog for us anyway. Lando and Tomo aren't gonna want to switch in to us anyway. Clef, Pult, Fini and Lotl will still have to be careful what moves they click, and we do still make other mons think twice about clicking Defog. Also we're Flying type so we're immune to webs. There's less to gain from this ability now that we know our typing.
These abilities suffer a lot from our typing. We would have to spend significant power budget on movepool and coverage to make these work, and 30i will have access to these moves too.
Could be cool thanks to our quad resists. In terms of raw power this one is worse than Stamina because the opponent can just switch out. If we’re able to come in and take a hit from something, it’s likely we’re trying to force the opponent out anyway. BUT, Cotton Down could be useful in forcing switches. Denying 2HKOs due to the speed drop is pretty cool. This will need to be paired with threatening moves that scare the opponent enough to make them switch out. Recovery would have great synergy here, and we’d want to hang on to Boots as long as possible. Denying end game sweeps is also cool; now you can’t expect to just save your Pult till end game and spam Shadow Ball; it forces you to reconsider your game plan immediately from team preview.
There are a few moves that take advantage of Simple without giving 30i access to good set up. There are of course the single boosting moves like Howl, Harden, etc. There are those linked to damage like Flame Charge, Rapid Spin, Power up Punch, Charge Beam. There are other interesting set-up ones like Hone Claws, Work Up and Growth. Growth, in particular, becomes super stronk in Sun. Power up Punch and Flame Charge and interesting as a way to hit Steels without being super strong themselves. Hone Claws + Gunk Shot and coverage could be cool. Acid Armor + Body Press could be cool too (RIP Plasmanta). There’s a few ways we could take this, but we’d essentially be building around a move. There’s nothing about Poison/Flying that explicitly synergizes with Simple except Flame Charge and PuP as ways to hit Steels.
Gonna be honest, I genuinely like these. An actual functioning meme mon would be so cool. That’s all I have to say though. HDB can suck a caterpillar dick.
I really don’t think this is very good. BB and Acrobatics have anti-synergy, and Hurricane is the worst move in the game. Useful for priority Roost, but not much else. Not to mention, this makes us really not want to switch in on U-turns, which is a move we 4x resist. We would be unable to really leverage our typing unless it’s a late game cleaner with Aeroblast or Drill Peck that doesn’t see play until turn 78.
EDIT: I have been reliably informed that priority Roost at 100% does not make any sense.
Negating the biggest defensive problem that Flying types have is cool. We’re not weak to Knock so taking full damage isn’t the biggest deal. This is essentially +20% defensive utility as opposed to “Knock absorber”. Stopping Trick Scarf is cool, but outside of Fini, I think the most common users are Rotoms.
Kinda boring, but would be a surefire way to separate 30i from 30b. We could do pretty much whatever we want with these, but this would be a significant portion of our power budget, given both forms would have really powerful abilities. Toxic immunity is HUGE. Giving it any way to get past Steels might push it over the edge, but giving it nothing to get past Steels makes it super vulnerable. Seems hard to balance (not as bad as Corrosion) but it’s doable.
Decent synergy with Hurricane and Gunk Shot. Maybe we give it Dynamic Punch to hit Steels? Not much more to say; with just STABs, this ability doesn’t do a whole lot.
I feel the STABs are a little too weak together to make this one work. Synergizes very well with recovery, and the Toxic immunity is huge here too. Sludge Bomb is a great move, but basically any Steel type can sit on us unless we get some kind of coverage. We’ll have to make sure this thing’s coverage doesn’t make 30i’s move pool too good.
 
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My problem with offensive abilities like Strong Jaw and Technician is how to make our role not severely overlap with 30i to the point where one outclasses the other.

As an example, Strong Jaw Fire Fang seems cool for hitting steels which otherwise wall us. However, given the same attack stat, Tinted Lens Brave Bird with the item boost actually hits harder than Super Effective, Strong Jaw-boosted Fire Fang (I'm assuming 30b will run boots, which is quite likely as previously discussed). Obviously we could compensate for this by giving 30b a higher attack stat or not giving 30i Brave Bird, but you can see how there would be a lot of overlap in function, and in addition, 30i doesn't actually have to predict the steel coming in. I think balancing two mons with that much overlap becomes quite difficult. Technician boosts a lot of potential moves, but when our STABs are resisted by a huge chunk of the metagame, we'd have to put a ton of effort into making this thing even be able to compete with Tinted Lens. Technician has more potential than Strong Jaw, but both seem quite risky to me.

I think defensive abilities give us infinitely more room to work with and carve out a niche.
 
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Gonna echo Jewvia and bring up a point of order here, regarding what abilities are allowed for consideration. We did talk about this in Ability 1, but I don't think we reached a solid conclusion. I think it would be useful (at least for me) to get a concrete on whether the following are being considered.
Seconding this, it would be nice to get a confirmation which of these are valid. Some other abils that could be disqualified/allowed are:

Triage (Revenankh)
Corrosion (Salazzle was tiered this gen in pre-home)
Competitive (Was seemingly disallowed last time?)
No Guard (Aurumoth was great and used it to death half of last gen and is usable and tiered this gen)
 

quziel

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I'd like to second Water Bubble as it gives an immediate role for the mon. That is, it sorta basically opens the door for us to be a very solid Heatran switchin. This is important cause a lot of the Physdef abilities sorta would have us switching into well, Knock Off users, and specifically targeting a class of mons that do not run Knock Off is very value on a mon that will really want to run boots. I'd contrast this to Thick Fat, which has the same implicit goal (that is targetting fire types), while also offering a neutrality to Ice moves (Weavile still knocks us, specs kyurem almost def KOs, we then net beat boots Kyurem ish). I would argue that Thick Fat implies that we should have some way to beat well, Fire-types, and Water Bubble immediately answers that question by saying "we will use our pseudo-stab Water moves". Aka, Water Bubble is a stronger version of Thick Fat; it targets the same mons as Thick Fat, and also immediately gives 30b a way to deal with them. This is a very strong ability, and balancing the fact that 30b gets boots and the strong ability could be iffy.

Cotton Down is also worth bringing up again, as it offers a contrast to Tinted Lens, in that while Tinted Lens is exceptional as a wallbreaking ability (if you can force a switch its a 2x damage bonus), Cotton Down instead leans very heavily into the screw offense role. Giving that immediate pseudo-defensive utility to 30b would definitely help it find a place on teams, and our typing is neutral to enough fast threats that I think it could do great work. That said, this is like a 4/10 ability compared to the 8/10 strength of Tinted Lens, so balancing could be a pickle, still boots help on that.

No Guard is valid because we are a flying type, and thus anything that can help us with Hurricane (not guaranteed) is useful. This also opens up a ton of pseudo utility moves, which is very cool. This is a solid ability that imo can work on any role from Cleaner to Tank/Wall hybrid. Giving us a very reliable special stab, opening up cool coverage and utility moves, this ability is about the perfect strength to compete with TL after factoring in boots.
 
I'd like to second Water Bubble as it gives an immediate role for the mon. That is, it sorta basically opens the door for us to be a very solid Heatran switchin. This is important cause a lot of the Physdef abilities sorta would have us switching into well, Knock Off users, and specifically targeting a class of mons that do not run Knock Off is very value on a mon that will really want to run boots. I'd contrast this to Thick Fat, which has the same implicit goal (that is targetting fire types), while also offering a neutrality to Ice moves (Weavile still knocks us, specs kyurem almost def KOs, we then net beat boots Kyurem ish). I would argue that Thick Fat implies that we should have some way to beat well, Fire-types, and Water Bubble immediately answers that question by saying "we will use our pseudo-stab Water moves". Aka, Water Bubble is a stronger version of Thick Fat; it targets the same mons as Thick Fat, and also immediately gives 30b a way to deal with them. This is a very strong ability, and balancing the fact that 30b gets boots and the strong ability could be iffy.

Cotton Down is also worth bringing up again, as it offers a contrast to Tinted Lens, in that while Tinted Lens is exceptional as a wallbreaking ability (if you can force a switch its a 2x damage bonus), Cotton Down instead leans very heavily into the screw offense role. Giving that immediate pseudo-defensive utility to 30b would definitely help it find a place on teams, and our typing is neutral to enough fast threats that I think it could do great work. That said, this is like a 4/10 ability compared to the 8/10 strength of Tinted Lens, so balancing could be a pickle, still boots help on that.

No Guard is valid because we are a flying type, and thus anything that can help us with Hurricane (not guaranteed) is useful. This also opens up a ton of pseudo utility moves, which is very cool. This is a solid ability that imo can work on any role from Cleaner to Tank/Wall hybrid. Giving us a very reliable special stab, opening up cool coverage and utility moves, this ability is about the perfect strength to compete with TL after factoring in boots.
Water Bubble does add another interesting dynamic to 30b in that it has a pseudo 3rd STAB, an semi-answer to Steels all the while giving it more blanket checks (Ferrothorn is the first one that comes to mind for me), and it also gives it the defensive trait of resisting fire attacks. You said the rest better, but I wanted to add on given Corrosion is pretty controversial atm (although I'm still entirely for it personally because I feel we can easily balance it out in other stages of the process like stats).
 
My problem with offensive abilities like Strong Jaw and Technician is how to make our role not severely overlap with 30i to the point where one outclasses the other.

As an example, Strong Jaw Fire Fang seems cool for hitting steels which otherwise wall us. However, given the same attack stat, Tinted Lens Brave Bird with the item boost (I'm assuming 30b will run boots, which is quite likely as previously discussed) actually hits harder than Super Effective, Strong Jaw-boosted Fire Fang. Obviously we could compensate for this by giving 30b a higher attack stat or not giving 30i Brave Bird, but you can see how there would be a lot of overlap in function, and in addition, 30i doesn't actually have to predict the steel coming in. I think balancing two mons with that much overlap becomes quite difficult. Technician boosts a lot of potential moves, but when our STABs are resisted by a huge chunk of the metagame, we'd have to put a ton of effort into making this thing even be able to compete with Tinted Lens. Technician has more potential than Strong Jaw, but both seem quite risky to me.

I think defensive abilities give us infinitely more room to work with and carve out a niche.

This 300%. It makes absolutely no sense to give this CAP offensive abilities that would render either forme obsolete. CAP produces enough unviable creations as it is lol. We need a niche that contrasts with 30i. I'm really not a fan of Download, Berserk, Simple, Technician, Strong Jaw, No Guard, Compoundeyes, or Corrosion for this exact reason.


Water Bubble is a fascinating idea, as it lends a new role to CAP30b that doesn't simply replicate the role CAP30i plays. However, it would potentially overshadow CAP30i as a utility wallbreaker by adding a new STAB, fire resistance, and Burn immunity. Water/Flying is also one of the best STAB combos in the game.

Competitive/Defiant is an ability centered around punishing certain utility plays, so it arguably is much different from Tinted Lens. However, CAP30's typing (Flying) prevents it from making the most out of the ability, because Flying types are unaffected by Sticky Web.

Sticky Hold flat-out sucks on anything that doesn't resist Knock Off, and doesn't make sense when 30i already acts as a KOff absorber. This would have been good on a different CAP but not on this Zubat bullshit.

Triage is only really viable if we drop the stupid restriction that prevents us from using signature moves, in this case Oblivion Wing. Triage is a fantastic ability that hasn't been properly explored, but it is going to struggle to find use on a Poison/Flying type. Unfortunately, the community didn't heed users (myself included) discussing the restrictions certain typings would force, including the "power budget" and the movepool issues certain typings will force on us.

Ice Scales/Fur Coat/Filter/Stamina/Thick Fat/Cotton Down would be my preferred options for CAP30b, just to set it apart from 30i. These abilities are best for setting 30b up in a contrasting role. We should also consider others like Rough Skin to punish U-Turn users.
 

Dj Breloominati♬

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Here to give my thoughts on abilities discussed so far , and possibly bring up some more options to the table. Most of my opinions are based on how our priority should not only be to not skew our relationship with the other TL form , but also to give us a legitimate reason to use the 30b form as well.

Abilities that i like :
  • Water bubble : As said by quz eloquently, this targets the same mons that thick fat wants to target ( Heatran for example ). Since we must be very wary of the coverage we give cap30 , with Poison/Flying being a very neutral offensive typing, giving us a pseudo third stab seems to be a nice way of increasing its firepower without making it too over the top. I'd also like to highlight how this helps us in effectively being immune to 2/3 relevant status' in poison and burns. As spoo said in his post, this is one of the more easier abilities to balance out, as we just need to limit the BP of the moves that we are going to give it. The only real downside i see to this is as said earlier in this thread , incorporating this into the design would be very difficult for the artists, but im not experienced enough to make any relevant comments on this point.

  • Trace : Hasnt seen much deliberation yet, but hopefully this post will be the one to change that. I think trace strikes a perfect balance between not wanting to overshoot/undershoot cap30b's ability with regards to the rest of the process, as we are now slightly leaning towards the defensive route. Trace helps us in quite a lot of matchups, some being letting us effectively "wall" flash fire heatran and zera, switch in on regen pivots like pex (due to our toxic/tspike immunity), help in the weather matchups vs arctozolt/venusaur/barra (can even run scarf due to not being item locked, depending upon our base speed and its role on a particular team) etc. Some smaller applications include being able to (potentially) spam bb vs clef without fear of recoil, and being able to freely switch in on blissey without fear of paralysis. I feel this is a very strong ability rn since it gives us a lot of incentive in the builder to even want to use cap30b, since a major factor we need to keep in mind is how to prevent cap30i and other metagame staples from outclassing it in every way. The only real downside i see to this suggestion is the fact that , as pointed out on disc , it does not fully uphold the concept for this particular process, as we already have a viable trace user in bao (though i feel this shouldnt be the sole reason we completely shut down this prospect )

  • No guard : I think this is a very interesting route that we can take, since it clearly distinguishes its own role when compared to its other form. As quz said "this also opens up a ton of pseudo utility moves, which is very cool. This is a solid ability that imo can work on any role from Cleaner to Tank/Wall hybrid". While not being a very metagame related example, machamp throughout the generations (in lower tiers mainly) , picked between running no guard/guts based on its particular role on a team, dynamic punch being chosen on teams which liked the added bonus of confusion ( to provide an oppurtunity for setup for another teammate or simply to change the flow of the game since confusion needs to now be accounted for ) and guts (mostly with flame orb) as a source of immediate breaking power ( with the added bonus of status absorber ). Another point that i really like about this suggestion is the fact that, the tools that we give to assist a no guard mon ( low accuracy but potentially high bp moves ) do not carry over as "additions" to cap30i's movepool ( you cannot run blunder policy because of being item locked, and in general we prefer not to run these low accurate moves unless situationally required , an example being the preference of icebeam > blizzard).
  • Technician also falls into a similar bucket in my opinion since it again allows us the freedom of giving tools to one form ( ≤ 60 bp moves ) without worrying about it benefitting the other form. Have not discussed in detail since i am not sure if it goes completely against the spirit of the concept, since we have a very viable technician user in Scizor.

Abilities that im neutral about :

  • Thick fat and fluffy : Grouping them together because i share similar feelings for both of them. They get the job done. We tick all the required boxes (rarelyseen ability, incentive to use cap30b, not strong enough to warp the rest of the process). Not much else left to say as people have already covered these to some extent , but id like to offer another angle at a present argument being used. Yes with thick fat we are able to take ice hits better, but that does not mean we are going to be using it particularly as a check to ice types. What i mean is that you arent going to slap it on a team and say to yourself "now my mu vs weav/kyu is better" , similar to what you do once you add argh/corv/clef. Thick fat is something that is moreso an added bonus to cap30b rather than being a fully good user of it. The point regarding tran still stands though, given we give it some sort of way to hit steels, i can see it performing a similar job as utility hydreigon for example ( good vs sun/tran due to fire resistance+ground immunity+ ability to roost/fog).
  • Fluffy on the other hand seems extremely cool on paper but very average in practice -- since we are very vulnerable to being knocked throughout the course of the game, our ability to check said physical attackers long term is shaky due to how hindered we are by rocks. Using the set of mons that NitioWO that listed out, zera weav and rilla knock us themselves, melm just sits on us (assuming we arent going to give it a high bp move to hit steels), mons like shifu/paj become hard to answer once we lose our boots (pragmatically speaking), and the remaining set of mons (buzz/dnite) are comfortably answered by a lot of existing metagame staples (corv/skarm/clef). This is why i am unsure of my opinion on fluffy for cap30b as i am not yet convinced it will have a specific role that it can define for itself.

Abilities that i do not like:
A big part of why i do not like said abilities is taking into consideration the rest of the process ( mainly movepool ), since any expectations that we have for cap30b ( setup / coverage moves) also inherently carry over to our other TL form ( which we do not want as of now )

  • Filter : Simply put, i dont think we have the tools to be a good filter user. We cannot fully bank on getting good bp coverage and "good" setup moves ( there is quite big a difference between howl and sd for example ) since as aforementioned , they carry over to our other form as well which could potentially be very dangerous. Taking the example of necrozma ( the best filter user ), we are most likely not going to get similar options for setup like it does ( DD , CM , Autonomize/SD ), and a high bp stab like photon geyser. This is one of the primary i do not see the damage reduction helping us a whole lot. Some plus sides include, being able to sorta stay in on electrics ( and threaten koko because of our other stab) and being a great fighting check defensively due to our typing ( we are still very afraid of knock , but can tank the ice/thunderpunches and stone edges better)

  • Corrosion : It has been covered as to why this isnt a good place for corrosion, and i share similar reasons - in an attempt to balance out corrosion on cap30b we might really hurt our other form ( in base stats for example ). I do not feel the need to skew the current textbook (remaining) process that we have in mind for the sake of having two excellent abilities. I do believe that our community can make sure that it is well balanced out at the end of the process, but even the smallest prospect of it breaking the meta ( which a half decent corrosion user will inevitably do ) is something i am heavily against.

I am not a very big fan of Cotton down/competitive/defiant since i dont think they give us enough reason to use cap30b in itself -- similar to filter, i think they make for great add-ons for an already good/above average mon, but not good standalone additions.
 
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I'm usually against situational abilities but in this case, the triggers are pretty common and the benefits are great. Poison/Flying resists U-turns and common moves from a few defensive pokemon, and is immune to Toxic, which is often carried. The interaction with Knock Off is constraining, and will have a huge effect on our reliance on Boots. Additionally, we will have to be careful with whether this thing runs contact moves itself, which would cause it to activate the opponent's Wandering Spirit on a following turn.
Don't have time today for a big post, but I wanted to echo Nitio specifically on his thoughts for Wandering Spirit. This is one of the more dynamic abilities we have available, and Nitio has done a great job showing some of the key examples that give 30b a great niche in shutting down top threats. boo836 brought up a great point about choosing an ability that contrasts with 30i, and I think Wandering Spirit does a great job as a defensive ability that can inhibit a lot of threats in executing their game plan.
 
Water bubble : As said by quz eloquently, this targets the same mons that thick fat wants to target ( Heatran for example ). Since we must be very wary of the coverage we give cap30 , with Poison/Flying being a very neutral offensive typing, giving us a pseudo third stab seems to be a nice way of increasing its firepower without making it too over the top. I'd also like to highlight how this helps us in effectively being immune to 2/3 relevant status' in poison and burns. As spoo said in his post, this is one of the more easier abilities to balance out, as we just need to limit the BP of the moves that we are going to give it. The only real downside i see to this is as said earlier in this thread , incorporating this into the design would be very difficult for the artists, but im not experienced enough to make any relevant comments on this point.
I completely forgot about the fact that Water Bubble also prevents burns! Especially if we decide to go on the more tanky role, that's huge from an offensive standpoint. Even if we decide to go defensive, its one less status to worry about chip-damaging us alongside toxic. That would be a pretty rare niche to have fun playing around with.
 
Gonna talk about abilities I guess:

I already discussed Gale Wings in the first ability thread so I'll just reiterate what I said here. Now that we're confirmed to be a flying type, Gale Wings is a fantastic choice here. It's definitely a situational ability, but the benefits gained from staying at full are so great that I believe it can still be effective. Although Brave Bird and Acrobatics don't really work with Gale Wings, Hurricane and Drill Peck are still very solid priority options. While Hurricane's accuracy could be an issue, I believe this fear is overblown because it still forces switches and prevents the opponent from attempting to revenge kill 30b. And although Drill Peck is on the weaker side, an 80 bp STAB priority move is still excellent. From a process perspective, Gale Wings has a lot to offer- it challenges us to explore the methods in which we keep a mon at full and the effects that strong priority has on the metagame. So yeah this ability is really cool we should do it
Third STAB is always compelling for me, and in this case, it's no different. Water Bubble gives us the kick we need to be an offensive presence that prevents Steel-types from coming in on us for free. It also has some extra bonuses like letting us come in on Heatran which is pretty neat. Not much to say here other than it's pretty cool.
Kind of beating a dead horse here but the problem with Corrosion is that it's uncompetitive at best and broken at worst. Clicking Toxic is such free progress on everything to the point where you don't really need to think about what the opponent is doing at all. Especially since Our Stabs invite in bulky Steels which would hate getting Toxic'd, balancing this would be a nightmare that I'm not particularly fond of participating in. Even if we do somehow balance it, I don't find that a Corrosion mon will be a healthy metagame presence or reward skillful play. Bad ability kinda cringe even
This ability is kinda sick, but I doubt it'll work out effectively. While at first, it seems like Trace with extra steps, the main intrigue here is the combination of Trace as well as ability denial, which is admittedly very cool. The problem here is that the ability denial seems most practical in denying Regenerator mons like Toxapex and Tornadus-T. However, this basically requires us to take Knock Off, which as a Rocks-weak typing we just can't afford to do consistently. Coming in on Tornadus-T U-Turn is admittedly kinda cool but I think that cases like these are too unreliable to use in practice to fully flesh out a process around. Even in other cases, Zeraora still Volt Switches on us forever, and most abilities that we copy won't really do anything for us.
Both these abilities theoretically offer third STABs similar to Water Bubble, but I feel like they kind of restrict us to awkward typings for our Third STAB as well as force physical/special bias. Water works quite well as a complementary STAB, but thinking about Strong Jaw, Crunch and Psychic Fangs don't seem nearly as useful and the elemental Fangs are far too weak. Also for Technician, we've already seen it be pretty effective so I don't really feel the urge to explore these.
To be blunt, Thick Fat is a near useless ability for us to explore. First, we lose to every relevant Ice-type without absurd bulk anyway. Specs Kyurem can't be walled with an Ice neutrality; 30b can't take Knock from Weavile, and likely isn't safe into +2 Triple Axel; Arctozolt just blows us up with Bolt Beak. The only time the Ice neutrality comes into play is against SubRoost Kyurem, which isn't near enough to design an optimized ability concept around. As for Fire resists, similar cases still hold. We still can't come in on Victini Bolt Strike; Astrolotl will click buttons unless we have a move that forces it out; and we can't touch Heatran without coverage, meaning it's possible we still lose to it 1v1. We could arguably build 30b to beat Heatran and Astolotl, but I don't find doing so to be particularly interesting and even then, this option is still accomplished by Water Bubble.
No Guard's pretty cool because in addition to letting us click Hurricane, it also gives access to some cool utility moves like Zap Cannon. My only gripe with this is that it basically performs the same role that 30i does; Zap Cannon is literally a perfect choice for a utility breaker. In any other context I would love No Guard, but because of this overlap I don't think it'll work.
Just wanna echo Spitfire's points on Filter. For one, it kind of forces us into the role of bulky setup, which we just explored with Chromera's process. Even then, the best CM users in the tier have solid, reliable 2-move coverage (Think Clefable's Moonblast and Fire Blast/Thunder, or Glowking's Scald/Psyshock). While Flying + coverage can hit a good portion of the metagame neutrally, for the purposes of bulky setup Flying STABs are kind of unreliable.
Trace is a really cool ability to explore if not for the fact that Jumbao already uses it, and uses it extremely well. From a process perspective, I don't find anything interesting to discover about optimizing Trace when Jumbao nearly accomplishes that already.
Nothing has really changed for Cotton Down after typing stage, I already talked about why it sucks here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cap-30-part-2-primary-ability-discussion.3689115/post-8947703
 
Well, folks, it’s time for another giga brian geniouse post. Today, the Eye of Sauron has turned its gaze toward:
CORROSION.

I: Selling Points
1)
Tinted Lens and Corrosion compliment and reflect each other in a lot of unique ways.
  • Both are quite straightforward and "honest", in that the primary game plan of both is immediately clear (Tinted Lens wants to spam STABs, Corrosion wants to spread poison).
  • Both only need one or two moveslots to actually execute on their gameplan (TL only needs 1-2 STABs, C only needs Toxic), freeing up room for utility, support, etc.
  • Both are relatively agnostic toward type matchups, and have little need for coverage.
  • Both target broad archetypes (Corrosion primarily targets fat, Tinted Lens primarily targets everything that isn't fat).
This'd give us as strong sense of direction moving into later stages.
It'd also, more than any other ability, result in a final product where 30i and 30b feel like two sides of the same coin, rather than two different mons stapled together.


2) Corrosion guarantees 30b doesn’t compete with 30i for a teamslot.

This an impressive feat. With a typing as awkward as Poison/Flying, trying to compete with Tinted Lens offensively is a lost cause. Defensive abilities, like Thick Fat or Stamina, have a bit more wiggle room, but 1) poison/flying is already quite good defensively, so they don't add that much, and 2) there remains the open question of: what would 30b actually do once it gets on the field, that 30i couldn't do too?

Corrosion doesn't have this issue. The ability to poison Steels and Poisons is so unrelated to anything Tinted Lens might want to do, that 30i could be as blisteringly busted or hopelessly horrible as it wants, and 30b would be unaffected. Same goes for the inverse.


3) Corrosion is incredibly open-ended, and give us a lot a room to figure out 30i + 30b's exact implementations.
It places next to no demands on stats or movepool, and could function on a variety of builds.
  • Do we want a high BST, or a low BST?
  • What coverage, if any, should 30 get?
  • Is 30i physically offensive, or specially offensive?
  • Will 30b use the same offensive stat as 30i?
  • Should 30b be a defensive wall? A defensive pivot? An offensive pivot? A cleric?
  • If we go defensive, do we want to be physically or specially defensive?
  • Is 30 fast, or slow?
  • What utility moves will 30 focus on?
  • Will 30b even use attacks? (thinking of :skarmory:)
Corrosion will be happy with any answer to any of these questions.

On Discord, we even briefly discussed the idea of Corrosion with no Toxic, only Poison Gas. For the rest of this post, I’ll be operating under the assumption that 30b uses Toxic, but I want to point out that Corrosion likely could function with only regular poison (though elaborating why would be a whole poll-jumpy post onto itself).
This is yet another testament to the sheer flexibility Corrosion brings to the table.


II: Criticisim and Counterplay
A few people have argued that any half-decent user of Corrosion would be completely overwhelming. Not just that it has the potential to be overpowered, but that by its very nature, any user of Corrosion would inevitably result in an unhealthy product, no matter how we design around it.
I think this concern is overblown, and is rooted in a slight misunderstanding of how Toxic works, and what makes a threatening user of it.

There was talk about how Toxic is not that detrimental if it lands on Pokemon like Zeraora or Dragapult, but that is simply not the case. Zeraora is maimed by Toxic and cannot perform its role nearly as well if it is taking chip every turn. The same goes for Dragapult, which more than anything wants to stay in and use Shadow Ball.
While it’s true being poisoned makes their lives more difficult, virtually anything else you could do to them would cripple them far worse. A paralyzed :dragapult: or a burned :zeraora: might as well be KOed, and simply attacking can permanently remove their ability to switch into or tank another attack.
Toxic, by contrast, takes a long time to deal meaningful damage (especially if they pivot out a lot), during which the poisoned mon can continue to attack, unimpeded.
Because of this, while it is technically positive to poison these mons, there’s a significant opportunity cost to poisoning them over doing literally anything else.

I would analogize Toxic on:zeraora:, :weavile:, :dragapult:, or any other fast, offensive mon, to hitting them with a resisted hit. While it does force some progress against them, it’s absolutely a trade they’d be willing to make if it means they get in otherwise safely, or get to fire off an attack - especially since they can all hit 30 super-effectively.

Overall, I feel like, at worst, Corrosion Toxic has an impact comparable to a decent attack with few resists/immunities, like Greninja’s Dark Pulse, Pult’s Shadow Ball, or, uh, Tinted Lens + Flying, in that it forces somewhat consistent progress at the cost of lower single-turn impact. The big difference is that the standard answers are inverted; splashable neutral hits destroy frailer mons & are generally (but imperfectly) answered by fat blobs, while Toxic is most harmful to fat blobs, and less immediately impactful to fast-paced offense.


III: Libra Lotl, or How To Break Toxic
I suspect a lot of the worry about Corrosion Toxic comes from earlier CAP processes. :equilibra: and :astrolotl: were each horrendously overpowered for a time, in large part because of how well they abused Toxic. The concern then, is that 30b with Corrosion would too easily be just as overbearing.

This, while understandable (those metas were not fun lol), fails to appreciate just how perfectly the stars aligned to make those mons as powerful as they were. Lotl and Libra both had a massive slew of other traits that made them great Toxic abusers, that Corrosion 30b couldn't or wouldn't-necessarily have access to.

One major thing, which I kind of alluded to earlier, is: Toxic, in comparison to attacking, is a very passive play. You are explicitly trading short-term impact for a long-term payoff. This is something an aggressive opponent can exploit.

IMO, a large part of what made Libra/Lotl so powerful is that they didn’t have to make that trade.
:equilibra: applied constant pressure with the threat of monstrously powerful Doom Desires, excellent offensive coverage, and bulk that let it potentially 1v1 almost anything. Also, some of its best checks (eg :zapdos:, :arghonaut:) are seriously crippled by Toxic.

:astrolotl:'s Regenerator makes any move it uses inherently non-committal, allowing it to eat hits and/or Toxic stall without even the momentum sink of Recover. That, combined with Knock Off, Spikes, Wish, etc made it incredibly good at winning long games, and ensured it always had some way to capitalize on any momentum it generated. Also, like Libra, many of Lotl's checks (eg :hippowdon:, :tomohawk:, :mandibuzz:) were seriously hurt by Toxic.

ie, they 1) could easily create the space to use Toxic safely, 2) could throw out Toxic without sacrificing momentum, 3) could easily exploit the timer Toxic places on opponents to generate momentum and apply pressure, and 4) Toxic'd their best checks.

Even with what little we know about 30, we can tell it can easily avoid many of these issues.
  • Given 30's bad offensive typing, and 30i already filling an offensive niche, it's unlikely 30b will be able to seriously threaten many things with attacks, and thus is inherently somewhat passive.
  • Without Lotl’s free Regenerator healing or Libra’s 10/10 defensive typing, alongside a rocks/knocks weakness, any action 30b takes is inherently more committal, as it can be more easily punished for minor misplays.
  • 30b would be designed with Toxic in mind from the get-go, so its checks would be designed primarily around what can handle the move.

The comparison is also brought up, that Libra/Lotl were Toxic users that beat Steels.
Even against Steels (like :heatran:, :melmetal:, etc); even after poisoning them, 30b, without relevant coverage, could still easily be walled, and ultimately lose the 1v1.
Practically, probably equivalent to if, say, :crobat: had Brick Break. It certainly helps a lot, but it isn't going to dramatically swing the MUs in the opposite direction.


IV: Grab Bag of Toxic Checks
Earlier I compared Corrosion poison to something like :dragapult:’s Shadow Ball. That comparison was a little unfair, because Shadow Ball actually has way less counterplay.
  • Regenerators like :slowbro: , :astrolotl:, or :tornadus-therian: don't really care about being poisoned, if they already don't plan on staying in for very long on average.
  • :tapu fini:'s Misty Terrain protects not only it, but its entire team from poison. Even with Corrosion, there's very little 30b could do to :melmetal: or :heatran: with terrain active.
  • Magic Guarders like :clefable:, :krilowatt:, or :reuniclus: are all still immune to poison, and can all retaliate with super-effective Electric or Psychic moves
  • Guts users like :obstagoon:, :colossoil:, or :naviathan: can absorb poison for free once their Flame Orb activates, and all either resist 30b's STABs or could easily threaten it out with their own.
  • Similarly, :pajantom: is completely immune to status (thanks to Comatose), resists Poison, and can scare 30 with its own attacks.
  • :snaelstrom: isn't the greatest check, due to a weakness to Flying STAB and general subpar viability, but I bring it up to ask: how likely is it Corrosion 30b runs both Poison AND Flying STAB on the same set? With toxic/poison/flying, you only have one moveslot left for utility. Ditching Poison STAB means :clefable: and :tapu fini: become more consistent checks. Ditching Flying STAB means :snaelstrom: becomes a more consistent check. Regardless of the answer, I like having the potential for this kind of decisionmaking in the teambuilder.
  • Heal Bell and Aromatherapy exist. Given how common these are (particularly among CAPs), that they only require 1 moveslot on an entire team, and help deal with far more than just Corrosion 30b, slotting these moves on a team is not a significant opportunity cost.
  • [Insert point about Substitute here]
  • Even defensive mons who'd traditionally be the #1 targets of Corrosion, like :toxapex: or :corviknight:, could still get by if they manage to find room to Recover throughout the match.
    • Pex in particular, with its dual combo of Recover and Regenerator, might be a lot less crippled by Toxic than we'd expect, particularly in shorter games.
The point here being, there's way more counterplay to Toxic than just typing, so removing typing as counterplay doesn't instantly make it unmanageable.
 
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Gale Wings has a lot of potential the more I think about it. There's the obvious routes of Brave Bird for a priority nuke attack that forces us to heal, the less powerful but still well above-average Drill Peck, and the threat of priority Hurricane forcing a lot of switches (or just run it on Rain lmao). Emergency Defog is another benefit we can provide.

There's still quite a few Flying-type moves beyond this however, and exploring how we can use them to our advantage would make for a cool project. I wish Flying had more available moves however, as most of our attacks boil down to less power but no drawbacks vs. more power but drawbacks.

Water Bubble being optimized on a Flying/Poison type sounded weird to me at first since a Water type would be a more natural fit, but I think the 2x damage is enough to justify it, as a Water-type user would likely be brought down in power level to be balanced: as such our STAB Water Bubble and non-STAB Water Bubble moves are essentially the same going forward as we still have to stop ourselves at the same threshold.

I agree that Water Bubble is essentially an upgrade over Thick Fat as the Ice neautrality isn't as applicable as a resist would be, and the doubled power of Water moves + burn immunity makes for an extremely unique mon.

Would like to echo boo836's point about Water Bubble being so good that it might overshadow 30i if we're not careful: Water/Flying/Poison coverage hits practically everything neutrally (seriously only Naviathan and Plasmanta resist our coverage).
 

Korski

Distilled, 80 proof
is a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Hello CAP just catching up on the new project, hope all is well. I am a big fan of this Framework idea and think it’s a really fresh twist on the process, kudos to the forum leads for executing another ambitious multi-CAP. I just want to chime in modestly in the hope that I can convince a few users here to reconsider Corrosion for the base form’s ability, from both process and functional standpoints.
It was decided at the start of CAP30 that this would be a Framework Project, the second such experiment in the history of the forum and the first in three years, which makes this, by design, a rare opportunity for us to expand our range and glean extra insights into how this metagame functions. The point of the CAP Project at conception was to challenge the metagame with each new addition and see how closely we can manage the outcomes via a rigorous build process and empirical post-build testing and analysis. Now that all the CAPs are mixed together in the testing metagame, I worry that it’s become more appealing to adopt a “look, but don’t touch” mentality to the metagame and to these Projects and that a fear has built up around introducing Pokemon that don’t “fit in” with the expectations of the “established” tier.

In this case, there seems to be a primary concern in this thread that the established CAP metagame would be unfairly manipulated with the introduction of one new Pokemon that, while obviously invalidated by Steel-types at first glance, could via Forme and Ability either hit Steel or Poison types effectively with its STAB attacks on one hand, or bypass Steel and Poison-type immunities to Poison status on the other. This is just my opinion, but I think this duality, in accordance with the ambitions of the Concept and alongside the chosen Typing, is actually shockingly cohesive for this Project, historically, and is such a strong interpretation of both the Framework and the Concept I struggle to understand why we wouldn’t want to at least try to pursue it. It actually reminds me a lot of Mollux’s “Extreme Makeover: Typing Edition” Concept, which was pretty successful and is due for an update after nine years.

The next worry is balance concerns, which I would hope could be the purpose of every other stage in the process besides Primary Ability, when the Concept is “Optimized Ability” and we have a perfect Concept-focused option like Corrosion available. I guess I can’t be sure what everyone is thinking in terms of stats and movepool when anticipating that Corrosion would be too powerful for us to balance against the metagame, or its requirements too specific for us to balance against the Tinted Lens Forme, but CAP is designed to accommodate balance throughout each step of the process and our power budget on our most successful Projects has always been dedicated to achieving the Concept first and foremost.

We’ve already selected a typing that is set up to fail in the current metagame but is redeemed for one of the two Formes by Tinted Lens, which allows utility wallbreaker 30i a chance to overcome its most glaring flaw and will be optimized via a combination of targeted stats, high powered STAB attacks and a permanent 1.2x boost to their damage output. Of these, 30b will only share the BST, movepool, and underwhelming Typing. It will forfeit the ability to not be hard-walled offensively as well as the damage boost on its now-easily-resisted attacks; the relevant stats that were optimized to the other Forme will be rearranged to keep both Formes in check; and the movepool will be balanced with the benefit of having every other piece in place for clarity of purpose. We even have an example of "failure to optimize" in Salazzle to look to while designing the rest of the Forme, which will come in handy and honestly already has.

To play devil's advocate, a defensive status spreader 30b could even risk becoming too passive, even as it causes some consternation for a handful of metagame threats that haven’t ever had to put up with Poison status before. But if that’s, like, pretty much all of what 30b does is spread Toxic status without the typical Steel, Poison, and Clefable-type roadblocks with maybe some supportive role compression, then that’s a picture perfect niche that, alongside Tinted Lens wallbreaker, fulfills the Concept exactly with no gaps or sidetracks, imo, and can of course be balanced by the remaining stages, like every other CAP that came before it. The metagame will have to figure out how to navigate status and its related strategies in a mildly different way, which is healthy!
I don't think hardly any of the other options in this thread, besides maybe Water Bubble if you want to take the risk on two offensemons, have any sort of optimizable role or even clear direction with which to guide the rest of the process, and it is unreasonable to choose a Concept based solely around learning from underutilized Abilities and then pick something like Filter or Thick Fat, with obvious effects designed simply to negate flaws with the Typing, that cannot address any of the "Questions to be Answered" or even really explore how typing, stats, and movepool can be designed around two primary abilities that have never before been properly supported enough to make an impact on the OU metagame. This is kind of the one opportunity for us to do something noteworthy and ambitious for the next however many years until the next Framework Project comes along, and it would be a shame to look back at the end of the playtest and realize we intentionally chose an Ability that that preserves the status-quo and that would not have a meaningful impact on the metagame when the Concept and CAP Project as a whole, really, explicitly asked us not to do so.
 

dex

As far as I know, I'm immortal
is a Pre-Contributor
There's a lot to unpack here. I am in no way attacking your ideas here, but there is serious misinformation in your post that needs to be cleared up.
Well, folks, it’s time for another giga brian geniouse post. Today, the Eye of Sauron has turned its gaze toward:
CORROSION.

I: Selling Points
1)
Tinted Lens and Corrosion compliment and reflect each other in a lot of unique ways.
  • Both are quite straightforward and "honest", in that the primary game plan of both is immediately clear (Tinted Lens wants to spam STABs, Corrosion wants to spread poison).
  • Both only need one or two moveslots to actually execute on their gameplan (TL only needs 1-2 STABs, C only needs Toxic), freeing up room for utility, support, etc.
  • Both are relatively agnostic toward type matchups, and have little need for coverage.
  • Both target broad archetypes (Corrosion primarily targets fat (this is not true. Toxic is a universally damaging status that is useful against quite literally every playstyle outside of Hyper Offense. The idea that mainly fat mons suffer from Toxic's effects is false. Toxic hurts offensive pokemon equally, if not more due to their lack of recovery. Is Paralysis on Dragapult worse? Of course, but that doesn't mean Toxic is suddenly some small concern. Toxiced Dragapult can be easily stalled and Toxic completely disallows its gameplan of breaking for the late-game. You may say Corrosion does not impact CAP30b's ability to Toxic Dragapult, but it absolutely does because it completely breaks many team's counterplay to Toxic. Asking the metagame to change because of Corrosion CAP30b is the definition of meta defining, something we need to stray away from considering how past 'meta-defining' CAPs broke everything on their release (ex: Jumbao centralizing the metagame around itself, Libra then doing the same, then Astro doing the exact same thing). This is neither healthy nor desirable for CAP as a whole.) , Tinted Lens primarily targets everything that isn't fat).
This'd give us as strong sense of direction moving into later stages.
It'd also, more than any other ability, result in a final product where 30i and 30b feel like two sides of the same coin, rather than two different mons stapled together. (Why this is even a concern I do not know. You even go on to say that 30b needs to differentiate itself from 30i. If anything, this is a flavor argument, not a real competitive reasoning for Corrosion.)


2)
Corrosion guarantees 30b doesn’t compete with 30i for a teamslot. (Many, many of the proposed abilities do this. Corrosion is not unique in this quality. There have been a multitude of defensive abilities proposed that quite obviously differentiate 30b from 30i rolewise. This is no unique reason Corrosion does this.)

This an impressive feat. With an typing as awkward as Poison/Flying, trying to compete with Tinted Lens offensively is a lost cause. Defensive abilities, like Thick Fat or Stamina, have a bit more wiggle room, but 1) poison/flying is already quite good defensively, so they don't add that much, and 2) there remains the open question of: what would 30b actually do once it gets on the field, that 30i couldn't do too? In particular,

Corrosion doesn't have this issue. The ability to poison Steels and Poisons is so unrelated to anything Tinted Lens might want to do, that 30i could be as blisteringly busted or hopelessly horrible as it wants, and 30b would be unaffected. Same goes for the inverse.


3) Corrosion is incredibly open-ended, (no? There is quite literally one route Corrosion goes. Toxic. Corrosion warps the entire process around one move. This is neither open-ended nor conducive to an informative process) and give us a lot a room to figure out 30i + 30b's exact implementations.
It places next to no demands on stats or movepool, and could function on a variety of builds.
  • Do we want a high BST, or a low BST?
  • What coverage, if any, should 30 get?
  • Is 30i physically offensive, or specially offensive?
  • Will 30b use the same offensive stat as 30i?
  • Should 30b be a defensive wall? A defensive pivot? An offensive pivot? A cleric?
  • If we go defensive, do we want to be physically or specially defensive?
  • Is 30 fast, or slow?
  • What utility moves will 30 focus on? (not only are these questions not unique in any way to Corrosion, but they are asked of essentially every CAP during their process. Corrosion does nothing to make these questions stand out. I could pose the exact same set of questions to literally every defensive ability mentioned in this thread.)
  • Will 30b even use attacks? (Yes. The answer is yes. Please name one viable mon that does not run an attacking move. There are none.)
Corrosion will be happy with any answer to any of these questions.


On Discord, we even briefly discussed the idea of Corrosion with no Toxic, only Poison Gas. For the rest of this post, I’ll be operating under the assumption that 30b uses Toxic, but I want to point out that Corrosion likely could function with only regular poison (though elaborating why would be a whole poll-jumpy post onto itself).
This is yet another testament to the sheer flexibility Corrosion brings to the table. (How is this in any way flexible? Corrosion concerns itself with status. It will operate the exact same with either Poison status. I fail to see how Corrosion brings flexibility to the table when it does exactly one thing.)


II: Criticisim and Counterplay

A few people have argued that any half-decent user of Corrosion would be completely overwhelming. Not just
[I think this concern is overblown, and is rooted in a slight misunderstanding of how Toxic works, and what makes a threatening user of it.]


While it’s true being poisoned makes their lives more difficult, virtually anything else you could do to them would cripple them far worse. A paralyzed :dragapult: or a burned :zeraora: might as well be KOed, and simply attacking can permanently remove their ability to switch into or tank another attack. (This is just so disconnected from the reality of how Toxic plays out in practice on these mons. While an attack can hinder these mons' abilities to switch in, they are often brought in via pivot, reducing this risk drastically. Additionally, Toxic absolutely takes away their ability to operate functionally. Dragapult and Zeraora's strengths lie in their ability to fire off STAB attacks consecutively, and Toxic absolutely destroys this playstyle. You say a paralyzed or burned Dragapult or Zeraora might as well be KOed? With proper play, the same is true of Toxic.
Toxic, by contrast, takes a long time to deal meaningful damage (especially if they pivot out a lot), during which the poisoned mon can continue to attack, unimpeded. (Damage of any kind adds up incredibly fast on these mons. They are not effective switch-ins to Toxic. I would quite literally rather have my Corvi be Toxiced than my Zeraora.)
Because of this, while it is technically positive to poison these mons, there’s a significant opportunity cost to poisoning them over doing literally anything else. (The answer to this is simply no, and it seems to be a common misconception about how Corrosion plays out. Why risk the dead turn of attempting to attack the opposing team's resist when you can simply click Toxic? There's absolutely no drawback to clicking Corrosion Toxic over an attacking move. You are quite literally guaranteed progress for using Toxic. There is a significant opportunity cost to not clicking Toxic, if anything.)

I would analogize Toxic on:zeraora:, :weavile:, :dragapult:, or any other fast, offensive mon, to hitting them with a resisted hit. While it does force some progress against them, it’s absolutely a trade they’d be willing to make if it means they get in otherwise safely, or get to fire off an attack - especially since they can all hit 30 super-effectively. (If you've ever played against a Zeraora, you know it can win with even the smallest sliver of health. Toxic absolutely takes so much more away from these mons than chip damage from resisted attacks. These mons want more than anything to stay in, and Toxic completely disallows that from happening. Toxic forces much, much more progress than simply attacking, and it guarantees that these mons are a non-factor in the late-game, something that Corrosion CAP30b would be able to do supremely well to the point that it is meta-defining.)

Overall, I feel like, at worst, Corrosion Toxic has an impact comparable to a decent attack with few resists/immunities, like Greninja’s Dark Pulse, Pult’s Shadow Ball, or, uh, Tinted Lens + Flying, in that it forces somewhat consistent progress at the cost of lower single-turn impact. The big difference is that the standard answers are inverted; splashable neutral hits destroy frailer mons & are generally (but imperfectly) answered by fat blobs, while Toxic is most harmful to fat blobs, and less immediately impactful to fast-paced offense. (This is not how games play out, particularly against the balance or bulky offense teams that are popular as of late. The idea that it has a lower single-turn impact is incredibly misleading. It has such a massive late-game impact that using Corrosion CAP30b on bulky teams allows you an autowin against particular mons. Your opponent essentially has to say "OK, I'm sacking this for the entire game." Corrosion Toxic is on a similar power level as Spore, except without the Sleep Clause.)


III: Libra Lotl, or How To Break Toxic

I suspect a lot of the worry about Corrosion Toxic comes from earlier CAP processes. :equilibra: and :astrolotl: were each horrendously overpowered for a time, in large part because of how well they abused Toxic. The concern then, is that 30b with Corrosion would too easily be just as overbearing.

This, while understandable (those metas were not fun lol), fails to appreciate just how perfectly the stars aligned to make those mons as powerful as they were. Lotl and Libra both had a massive slew of other traits that made them great Toxic abusers, that Corrosion 30b couldn't or wouldn't-necessarily have access to.

One major thing, which I kind of alluded to earlier, is: Toxic, in comparison to attacking, is a very passive play. You are explicitly trading short-term impact for a long-term payoff. This is something an aggressive opponent can exploit. (The only playstyle that can exploit this is Hyper Offense. Additionally, that long-term payoff is so absolutely massive that it is absolutely worth it. The threat of Corrosion Toxic is more than enough to make up for the 'passive' nature of the move.)

IMO, a large part of what made Libra/Lotl so powerful is that they didn’t have to make that trade.

ie, both were easily able to toss out the move without losing any momentum, and both had an incredible natural ability to

:equilibra: applied constant pressure with the threat of monstrously powerful Doom Desires, excellent offensive coverage, and bulk that let it potentially 1v1 almost anything. Also, some of its best checks (eg :zapdos:, :arghonaut:) are seriously crippled by Toxic.

:astrolotl:'s Regenerator makes any move it uses inherently non-committal, allowing it to eat hits and/or Toxic stall without even the momentum sink of Recover. That, combined with Knock Off, Spikes, Wish, etc made it incredibly good at winning long games, and ensured it always had some way to capitalize on any momentum it generated. Also, like Libra, many of Lotl's checks (eg :hippowdon:, :tomohawk:, :mandibuzz:) were seriously hurt by Toxic.

ie, they 1) could easily create the space to use Toxic safely, 2) could throw out Toxic without sacrificing momentum, 3) could easily exploit the timer Toxic places on opponents to generate momentum and apply pressure, and 4) Toxic'd their best checks.

Even with what little we know about 30, we can tell it can easily avoid many of these issues.
  • Given 30's bad offensive typing, and 30i already filling an offensive niche, it's unlikely 30b will be able to seriously threaten many things with attacks, and thus is inherently somewhat passive.
  • Without Lotl’s free Regenerator healing or Libra’s 10/10 defensive typing, alongside a rocks/knocks weakness, any action 30b takes is inherently more committal, as it can be more easily punished for minor misplays.
  • 30b would be designed with Toxic in mind from the get-go, so its checks would be designed primarily around what can handle the move. (you seem to be under the impression that there are non-immune mons or mons without Natural Cure handle Toxic well. There are not. Toxic makes significant progress against quite literally every mon.)

The comparison is also brought up, that Libra/Lotl were Toxic users that beat Steels.
Even against Steels (like :heatran:, :melmetal:, etc); even after poisoning them, 30b, without relevant coverage, could still easily be walled, and ultimately lose the 1v1.
Practically, probably equivalent to if, say, :crobat: had Brick Break. It certainly helps a lot, but it isn't going to dramatically swing the MUs in the opposite direction. (What's worse? Doing 30 with Brick Break or permanently crippling these otherwise bulky mons? I'd say Toxic is infinitely more threatening. You have to realize that this is not about the 1v1. Corrosion Toxic lets you Toxic, say, Melmetal, and then switch to a defensive check. Fairly soon, that Melmetal, which relies on its HP to operate, is no longer functional due to it being at 40, not 70. Add hazards into the mix and you suddenly have a mon that is impossible to switch into without Magic Guard, Misty Surge or Natural Cure)


IV: Grab Bag of Toxic Checks

Earlier I compared Corrosion poison to something like :dragapult:’s Shadow Ball. That comparison was a little unfair, because Shadow Ball actually has way less counterplay.
  • Regenerators like :slowbro: or :tornadus-therian: don't really care about being poisoned, if they already don't plan on staying in for very long on average. (They, in fact, care very much about being Toxiced. Perhaps the only mon in the entire game that doesn't is pivot Tornadus-T, but NP Torn is a fairly useless mon Toxiced. Slowbro is sort of a weird example, but to go along with it, Toxic breaks its ability to come in and sit on physical attackers. They can quite literally just keep attacking and are assured a breakthrough due to Toxic.)
  • :tapu fini:'s Misty Terrain protects not only it, but its entire team from poison. Even with Corrosion, there's very little 30b could do to :melmetal: or :heatran: with terrain active. (Forcing teams to run Tapu Fini is quite literally the opposite of healthy design. If Fini is the only true counter, and a counter that is weak to Poison at that, then Corrosion has gotten out of hand.)
  • Magic Guarders like :clefable:, :krilowatt:, or :reuniclus: are all still immune to poison, and can all retaliate with super-effective Electric or Psychic moves (Krilowatt and Reuniclus I can accept as checks. The counter list is still extremely limited. Forcing Clefable to run Thunder on the other hand is extremely warped.)
  • Guts users like :obstagoon:, :colossoil:, or :naviathan: can absorb poison for free once their Flame Orb activates, and all either resist 30b's STABs or could easily threaten it out with their own. (Obstagoon is unviable, Naviathan is quite close to being unviable, and Colossoil rarely runs Flame Orb. If it does not, it absolutely does not want to be Toxiced. The Guts boost is not worth losing Colossoil as a viable Dragapult check.
  • Similarly, :pajantom: is completely immune to status (thanks to Comatose), resists Poison, and can scare 30 with its own attacks. (honestly good point, didn't think of this guy)
  • Heal Bell and Aromatherapy exist. Given how common these are (particularly among CAPs), that they only require 1 moveslot on an entire team, and help deal with far more than just Corrosion 30b, slotting these moves on a team is not a sognificant opportunity cost. (Except it quite literally is a massive opportunity cost. Using Heal Bell on Clefable over any of its other moves is a straight nerf to its amazing utility. Forcing the cleric role to be mandatory is incredibly meta-defining and is downright unhealthy)
  • [Insert point about Substitute here] (Substitute works, but then you realize that very few mons actually even run the move, and if we are forcing mons to run Sub, something has gone horribly wrong.)
  • Even defensive mons who'd traditionally be the #1 targets of Corrosion, like :toxapex: or :corviknight:, could still get by if they manage to find room to Recover throughout the match.
    • Pex in particular, with its dual combo of Recover and Regenerator, might be a lot less crippled by Toxic than we'd expect, particularly in shorter games. (These mons gain so, so much from being able to sit on things and force them out with Helmet or Pressure. Toxic completely nerfs their defensive capabilities. Corrosion breaks these mons and makes them near useless as defensive options.)
The point here being, there's way more counterplay to Toxic than just typing, so removing typing as counterplay doesn't instantly make it unmanageable.

(As a final note, Corrosion is inherently meta-warping. The power of landing a Toxic on any mon cannot be understated. Toxic denies pretty much every mon their ability to effectively operate within their niche.)
 
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There's a lot to unpack here. I am in no way attacking your ideas here, but there is serious misinformation in your post that needs to be cleared up.
I'm going to focus mostly on the comments on Part IV here, because the idea that Toxic is somehow totally uncounterable (as opposed to merely quite strong) seems to be where the majority of contention ultimately spawns from. It kind of feels like I'm mostly reiterating points I've already made, but, whatever, it never hurts to clarify.

"Forcing teams to run Tapu Fini is quite literally the opposite of healthy design. If Fini is the only true counter, and a counter that is weak to Poison at that, then Corrosion has gotten out of hand."
This'd be true... were Fini the only counter. I've noticed a pattern in Corrosion discussion that goes something like:
ALICE: Corrosion Toxic has no counterplay.​
BOB: [Lists a counter]​
ALICE: It's unhealthy if there's only one counter.​
BOB: [Lists another counter]​
ALICE: It's unhealthy if there's only one counter.​
[Repeat]​
Like, sure, 1 is a small number, but add enough 1s together, along with some 0.5s, and you start to approach considerably larger numbers.

Also, "forcing" is a misleading word. It implies that there'd be absolutely no reason to run eg :tapu fini: or Heal Bell outside of 30b, and that those options provide no utility to the team outside the 30b matchup. This is pretty much never the case. Everything I brought up in those examples can contribute a lot more to the team than just a 30b check, even the more obscure options.

Obstagoon is unviable, Naviathan is quite close to being unviable, [etc]
Related to the previous point: having a large number of relatively uncommon checks adds up to checks in general being somewhat common. Sure, the chance you'll run into :naviathan: is low, as is the chance you'll run into :reuniclus:, but the chance you'll run into ONE OF [:naviathan: OR :reuniclus: OR :tapu fini: OR Aromatherapy OR etc] is quite high.

I also don't like the implication that a mon is balanced if and only if it matches up unambiguously poorly into one of the tiny handful of current >A-rank threats, with anything else rounding down to irrelevant. That's an extremely myopic and one-dimensional view of how the game works.

I'd even argue, having a lot of somewhat obscure counters is kind of a good thing. It means you now have slightly more reason to run these mons in general, and can work to make the metagame as a whole more varied and interesting.

(RE: Aromatherapy/Heal Bell)
Except it quite literally is a massive opportunity cost. Using Heal Bell on Clefable over any of its other moves is a straight nerf to its amazing utility. Forcing the cleric role to be mandatory is incredibly meta-defining and is downright unhealthy)
This is incredibly pedantic, and probably not worth including in this post, but: :clefable: is not particularly strict with what moves you run on it. It's a versatile mon, that can make do with whatever you need it to do. It's not going to be immediately dumpstered if you decide to ditch Stealth Rock or Knock Off or Protect or whatever.
The distribution of cleric moves is wide enough that this point likely generalizes.

[RE: Toxic being a momentum sink]
The only playstyle that can exploit this is Hyper Offense. Additionally, that long-term payoff is so absolutely massive that it is absolutely worth it. The threat of Corrosion Toxic is more than enough to make up for the 'passive' nature of the move.

[...]

[Regenerators], in fact, care very much about being Toxiced.

[...]

[RE: Defensive mons w reliable recovery being able to play around being poisoned]
These mons gain so, so much from being able to sit on things and force them out with Helmet or Pressure. Toxic completely nerfs their defensive capabilities. Corrosion breaks these mons and makes them near useless as defensive options.
I guess your games just last longer than mine do? Idk. This is kind of true in long, drawn-out games, but IME, even (or especially) when playing with or against stall, aggressive play is the best way to maneuver around slow, passive strategies.

Again, never claimed these mons are 100% totally immune to poison; just that there are many cases where there's a significant opportunity cost to clicking Toxic over doing something else. You can get value out of a play, and still have it be a bad play.
 

King of Tricks

Banned deucer.
Alright, I've been pretty silent on the proceedings so far, mainly because I didn't really have anything to contribute that hasn't been said already. But to be honest, the more support I see for Water Bubble, the more it concerns me.

Just off the bat, Water Bubble gives some insane benefits by itself. Gaining a Fire resist is fine on its own, but add in a burn immunity AND double damage with Water moves? As in, 200% damage? As in, better than STAB? At that point, we'd probably just be using Poison/Flying for its defensive and/or utility merits, outside of dealing with the usual STAB-weak suspects. While 30i's item and Tinted Lens means it's effectively doing 70% with its STABs and only dealing with half resists at worst, letting 30b completely demolish any Fire-type whose name doesn't rhyme with "bollocks" — in addition to everything else it could hypothetically handle — seems like it could end up overshadowing 30i in the long run, especially when considering its ability to run (almost) any item. At the risk of sounding like I'm polljumping, simply giving it coverage and/or focusing on special moves for 30b would help it deal with the same targets without going completely overboard.

Personally, I'd much prefer to see 30b go with a more defensively-oriented ability to really differentiate itself from its item-bound counterpart. If we're going for similar abilities to optimize, I'd like to throw out Heatproof as a possibly safer replacement. With Heatproof, not only does 30b still get a Fire resist, but also receives half damage from burns; 30b could effectively run Leftovers and still see a net gain in HP recovery, even after getting burned. It also fits the bill for our "Optimized Ability" concept: Currently, only Bronzong and Naviathan have access to it, the former typically running Levitate, and the latter had used it on Calm Mind sets to moderate success before it received Guts. Alternatively, Water Veil also grants 30b a burn immunity, though little else, with all of its current users either Untiered, unavailable, or using a different ability altogether.

I'm probably not the best person to come to for competitive theorycrafting, but that's just my
10 on the matter. :blobshrug:
 

Brambane

burn the midnight oil
is a Contributor Alumnus
Howdy ho friends and buckaroos, its ya boy here to unpack the most sizzlin' sub since tossed my sandwich in the fireplace. Feast your pitiful, uncorrupted eyes upon the latest in anti-Steel technology. Watch as Melmetal crumbles, Corviknight folds, and Heatran accidentally hits send on an email before attaching the files. And not just Steels! No, in fact, all Pokemon, from the smallest Joltik to the fattest Jumbao set someone DM'd you and why the fuck does it have Wish Protect I fucking swear if you send me this garbage again of course I am talking about one of the most unrepresented, underappreciated, UNRIVALED abilities in the game.

Its time. For. STAKEOUT.

Do you like damage? Lots of damage? Do you like smacking your metaphorical flesh Malaconda against the faces of the most common tanks in the metagame? Then STAKEOUT is the ability for you. Stakeout is a powerful offensive pressure ability that ideally forces your opponent into a formidable catch-22. Switch CAP30b into something it can immediately threaten, and your opponent either stays in against the imposing might of our cracked out Zubat, or switches and gets their keister slid across the cheese grater that is Flying STAB. But how STRONG is STAKEOUT actually, one might ask or title their clickbait Youtube video to fish for more than 7 subscribers, and yes one of them is my mom. Thankfully I have viciously blackmailed asked Thievul, the current Stakeout user in the game, to do some demonstration calcs against common top mons.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 271-321 (70.9 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 339-400 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 241-285 (79.2 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Tapu Fini: 310-365 (90.1 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Wow, now that's what I call DAMAGE. This ability would turn us into a formidable wallbreaker!

BUT WAIT, ISN'T CAP30I A WALLBREAKER?

Yes it is, shut up and eat you vegetables. The differences here, not including the obvious shit like giving them different stat spreads that alter certain match-ups, comes down to the game state CAP30 forces. Tinted Lens is strong, but hitting most things neutrally is very different than hitting one thing for double damage ALWAYS upon the switch. Stakeout does not have the diminishing returns that Tinted Lens does. Think of both abilities like a damage amplifier. Tinted Lens amplifies damage only against things that would normally resist you. Stakeout says hmmmmmmmmmm that's dumb, I am amplifying damage against anyone and everyone and especially that jerk SKARMORY. However, once you are in, the damage returns to normal. Stakeout removes resistances/adds weaknesses on the switch; Tinted Lens does it the whole time. As such, if you can get in against Stakeout no worse for wear, then the offensive pressure dissipates, as oppose to Tinted Lens which offers consistency. To put in GAMING TERMS, Stakeout is burst damage; Tinted Lens is sustained DPS.

Unconvinced? Think it sounds too strong of an ability? Worried it would warp the process around itself more than arguing "should Krilowatt get Draco Meteor for Kingdra????" The answer is ABSOLUTELY. This ability is BIG DAMAGE, VERY SCARY. We would need to be extremely careful, but in return we get two very unique wallbreakers. And I personally have no problem making two wallbreakers and seeing if one sinks and the other floats. There is something great to be learned there, so long as both are VIABLE, even if one is more OPTIMAL.

Thank you for reading my post, I shall now retreat back into my den until someone posts about Dragon's Maw.
 

Wulfanator

Clefable's wish came true!
is a Pre-Contributor
Alright. I have been sitting dormant all process and I think its time to speak up as a user, not as a TL. Based on our decisions up until now, it is rather difficult for us to establish yet another offensive niche using the same typing. I think the only way 2 offensive forms can succeed without overshadowing the other is if we find an ability that is equal in power to Tinted Lens. The problem is finding another powerful offensive ability that meets our rough criteria for unoptimized ability. Some users have resorted to recommending options like Serene Grace and Sheer Force which do not fall into the same category as the abilities from last discussion. Given the obstacles this route poses and the questionable options being listed, I think it is best to simply forego the headache of building forms that will directly compete with each other.

As many have already acknowledged, Poison/Flying is a strong defensive typing and we should find an ability that plays into its strengths. This may result in us picking a less flashy ability, but there are two major benefits of building in this direction. First, it will avoid direct competition with 30i since a defensive ability in conjunction with a defensive typing will play into a completely different role. Secondly, it gives us a better opportunity to build something on a similar power level to 30i. The second point is most important because Tinted Lens risks imposing limitations on the BST and movepool for both forms. With the defensive route, we want to aim for an ability that will justify the restrictions both forms experience. I think there are more defensive abilities that fit our concept and can build a product comparable in strength to Tinted Lens 30i.

I think the most standout ability discussed thus far is Corrosion. Toxic is already a powerful tool and the ability to spread it unimpeded skyrockets its value for any team. I think this ability can adequately compete with 30i for a slot on a team, and it will experience hefty building restrictions like those we already expect with Tinted Lens. With how hyperaware users have been regarding the issues this ability can create, I think we are in an ideal position to build with Corrosion that will yield a balanced mon. We know the strengths of this ability and can appropriately build without overcompensating like we experienced with Equilibra’s project. Although, if we build this like that project or any other past project, then there are major concerns for this option.

I will also throw support behind Thick Fat, Filter, Fur Coat, and Ice Scales. Expanding our defensive qualities is just an easy solution to maximizing 30b’s value. I prefer the damage reducing abilities over the flat stat buffs simply because of the more specific interactions. However, if we expect the limitations from Tinted Lens to severely impact 30b, having Fur Coat or Ice Scales to pad our stats may be the most beneficial option.

Of the abilities already suggested, the last I will mention support for is Stamina. I do not personally like it, but of all the abilities suggested, I think this has a decent case. I think spoo summarized it best by saying it leans into our defensive strength while giving us more “outs” offensively.
 
Perhaps what I’m saying here is redundant, but I want to add warning about preemptively nerfing 30b. I’ve noticed a pattern in CAP where there’s a strong tendency to over-nerf something to the point of unviability (Smokomodo from CAP 25 is a great example, Aurumoth, I can go on). I’m not saying Corrosion with make 30b anything like these mons, but we have to remember the typing we’re dealing with. We get flying STAB which is great, but it is hard walled to shit by anything Steel, it’ll have trouble dishing damage against rocks, and it is SR weak. We need to give it tools to have a fair chance in the metagame, especially when Tinted Lens will likely already restrain our BST. We need to give it a reason to differentiate from 30i. A couple users mentioned clear answers to toxic spread and the fact that we have more stages of the process to further ensure that it’s balanced out (stats and movepool). Korski also made a very valid point, why shouldn’t we try something that breaks the norm and explore a relatively under-explored concept (as our concept leads us to do)? I’ll state again that the blowback against Corrosion is pretty overblown, and I think many of the arguments lack context when it comes to toxic spread (particularly what made toxic spread from suspects like Astrolotl and Equilibra so potent compared to Salazzle who already has Corrosion as it is) and presence of answers (and other answers we can “force” deliberately in the future stages of the project).
 
While I agree that it makes much more sense to pursue a defensive build for 30b, I don't think that Water Bubble in particular precludes that. I think a defensive Water Bubble build is possible. The ability has defensive benefits in avoiding status and halving Fire-type damage. While it can be used as a potent offensive tool at times and we absolutely have to be careful, if we simply give the mon a defensive build and don't give it extremely high-powered water moves, we can absolutely keep it in reasonable territory. After all, this is a mon that wants to run boots. Running a boosting item comes with longevity problems and a wallbreaking role will struggle in comparison to 30i's ability to never have to predict.

What Water Bubble allows such a defensive mon is a way to make progress against most steel types (similarly to Corrosion), or at least pressure them in a way our teammates can capitalize on (for example by forcing a Roost vs. Corviknight).

So while I absolutely agree that we should be building a primarily defensive mon, I think Water Bubble could be a way to achieve that.
 

Tadasuke

Tuh-dah-skay
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
Hey cats, we're back for round two of discussion questions! Once again there's been a bunch of thorough discussion on some really great options, but it's time to focus in on a few specific choices.

Before we get into anything, I'm going to continue my role as the fun police and strike off a few abilities from discussion. As of now, the following abilities are banned:
  • Magic Bounce
  • Serene Grace
  • Sheer Force
All of these options have seen very potent users in the past, and I believe them to have been very well explored at this point. Magic Bounce got a lot of play in Gen 6 and 7 due to being featured on a few prominent mega-evolutions, Diancie-Mega and Sableye-Mega. The latter was even banned in Gen 6 for how efficacious of an ability Magic Bounce proved to be when paired with a stellar defensive typing and bulk. Serene Grace has also shown itself to be incredibly effective throughout the generations, specifically when used with the high flinch chance moves available to its two most prominent users, Jirachi and Togekiss. On top of having already been explored, I worry that if optimized in this way, especially given our Flying typing, Serene Grace would introduce an unhealthy presence to the meta. Finally, Sheer Force has seen its fair share of popularity even within Gen 8, boosting Nidoking beyond its mediocre stats into a threatening Life Orb breaker with high powered STABs and a diverse array of coverage options all boosted by the ability.

With that out of the way, I'd like to focus a bit on a few abilities that've received a fair bit of attention in the past few days. While I do want to highlight these for discussion, I want to be emphatic in saying the following: just because an ability is not listed below does not mean it's no longer up for consideration. There will be more abilities up for discussion later, but for the time being I think it would be prudent to give careful consideration to the questions below. This doesn't mean you can't bring up other abilities in this thread.
  • Corrosion
    • In what ways might attempting to balance Corrosion negatively impact our other form?
    • To what degree does the ability to spam Toxic or the poisoned status warp the metagame? Can this be mitigated to the point that introducing Corrosion CAP 30b will still be both healthy for the metagame and effective in fulfilling its concept?
  • Water Bubble
    • What new routes for 30b does having Water as a secondary STAB open up? In what situations would this be the most beneficial? How does this run the risk of being too potent of an ability, and can that risk be reduced in any way?
    • What strategies are bolstered by a resistance to Fire typing and an immunity to burn? Can this ability be used in a purely defensive manner while still being “optimized”?
  • Stamina
    • In what ways might Stamina affect our stats stage? How can this be taken advantage of?
    • How can this be optimized without defaulting to giving CAP 30b Body Press?
  • No Guard
    • Which attacks would synergize best with this ability? Are there any moves that aren’t immediately obvious given our typing that might provide an interesting path to take?
    • To what degree should we be worried about granting our opponent full accuracy on their moves?
  • Gale Wings
    • How do we ensure that CAP 30b can reliably be at full health in order for this ability to come into effect?
    • What options are available for us if we choose an offensive route with this mon? What about a defensive route?
    • How can this be explored beyond the roles that were previously fulfilled by Talonflame?
  • Thick Fat
    • How can improved defensive matchups against two typings be optimized?
    • Given the attacking power of many popular Ice types in the CAP Metagame, how much of an impact would this ability truly make without completely overloading our stats stage?
  • Filter
    • In what situations is the general defensive boost against super-effective hits most impactful with regards to our typing? Are there any particular interactions with highly viable mons that are noteworthy?
I'm going to leave these questions up for approximately 48 hours, then I'll continue the discussion from there.
 

Estronic

literally me in real life
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Water Bubble
What new routes for 30b does having Water as a secondary STAB open up? In what situations would this be the most beneficial? How does this run the risk of being too potent of an ability, and can that risk be reduced in any way?
Water Bubble would give CAP30b solid options to be able to face Steel-types (that are hit neutrally, at least), something that its Poison / Flying typing would naturally struggle against. In particular, it would allow it to target Heatran and Equilibra super effectively, which again would most likely give CAP30b a difficult time otherwise. Overall, though, it basically gives it a third STAB option (pretty sure the damage boost is more than STAB as well) that allows it to do some decent damage against a group of Pokemon that it would most likely have trouble with. My problem with Water Bubble, however, is similar my problem with Corrosion, but on a lesser scale. The fact that Water Bubble grants CAP30b an option to face nearly an entire group of Pokemon that it wouldn't be able to without it may make it difficult to give it a reasonable count of solid checks and counters to it. One of the main options we can do to negate this issue would be to give it weaker Water-type moves, but what exactly would constitute as a weak Water-type move in the context of Water Bubble? Something like Hydro Pump would obviously be a very risky move to give it, and even moves like Liquidation and Surf may push up to the line as well.
What strategies are bolstered by a resistance to Fire typing and an immunity to burn? Can this ability be used in a purely defensive manner while still being “optimized”?
Along with a better matchup against Steel-type, CAP30b would obviously have a better matchup against Fire-type. Poor Heatran gets thrown under the bus again with this, and other Pokemon like Astrolotl and Volcarona may struggle a bit against it now as well. Immunity to burn is great, as thanks to that and its Poison typing, it cannot be worn down through methods involving status. These two attributes obviously is incredibly useful defensively, and I suppose it could be utilized offensively as well, allowing it to face more defensive Pokemon confidently and being unable to be crippled by burn.

No Guard
Which attacks would synergize best with this ability? Are there any moves that aren’t immediately obvious given our typing that might provide an interesting path to take?
In terms of our typing, Gunk Shot and Hurricane come to mind as the biggest benefiter. Not having to worry about these moves missing can really help out with planning throughout the game. In terms of less obvious move, there's a lot of stuff we can work with. Coverage with Thunder and Blizzard can be useful, and shenanigans with Zap Cannon, Inferno, and Dynamic Punch might be interesting but can get out of hand easily. Just being able to not worry about missing powerful moves, specifically its most powerful STAB moves, is useful by itself.
To what degree should we be worried about granting our opponent full accuracy on their moves?
We really shouldn't be worried at all. Having every foe have perfect accuracy against you is a fine tradeoff for having perfect accuracy against an entire team. Besides, they're not going to have low accuracy moves for the sole purpose of targeting No Guard users. It really shouldn't be much of a concern as we continue with the process if we end up choosing No Guard.

Gale Wings
How do we ensure that CAP 30b can reliably be at full health in order for this ability to come into effect?
Heavy-Duty Boots.
What options are available for us if we choose an offensive route with this mon? What about a defensive route?
Well, no matter what role, CAP30b would absolutely NEED to run Heavy-Duty Boots in order to function effectively. Running anything else would be shooting itself in the foot. In terms of moves, spamming Flying-type moves like Hurricane, Air Slash, Dual Wingbeat, and more obviously come to mind, and not much else does beyond that. Defensively, Defog comes to mind, but again, that's honestly really all I can think of. There is the option for Tailwind support, but its short duration makes it tough for teammates to actually utilize.

I may answers some more of the questions later today. It's currently 9 am and I'm still very tired.
 
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