CAP 30 - Part 5 - Primary Ability Discussion 30b

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Mx

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CAP 30 So Far

Please pay very close attention to Tadasuke's posts during this thread and remain on topic. DO NOT begin by posting massive lists of abilities!

Some general rules for this discussion:
  • Custom abilities are banned. No exceptions. Posts suggesting custom abilities will be deleted.
  • There are ability banlists for the different stages of ability discussion. Posts suggesting banned abilities will be deleted.
  • Flavor abilities do not have any place in this thread. Do not bring up flavor reasoning. Posts that rely on flavor reasoning will be deleted.
The following abilities are banned from this discussion:
Arena Trap
As One
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Battle Bond
Chilling Neigh
Dark Aura
Dauntless Shield
Delta Stream
Desolate Land
Disguise
Dragon's Maw
Fairy Aura
Flower Gift
Forecast
Full Metal Body
Grim Neigh
Gulp Missile
Hunger Switch
Ice Face
Illusion
Imposter
Intrepid Sword
Moody
Multitype
Neuroforce
Power Construct
Primordial Sea
Prism Armor
RKS System
Schooling
Shadow Shield
Shadow Tag
Shields Down
Soul Heart
Stance Change
Teravolt
Transistor
Turboblaze
Unseen Fist
Victory Star
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode
These abilities are banned by default and should not be discussed barring exceptional cases. If you believe one of these abilities should be considered, you can make a post trying to explain why an exception is warranted in this specific case and if both the TL and Ability Leader agree, it will be allowed. If the TLT disagrees with the unbanning proposal, they should be considered fully banned and should not be further discussed.

Bulletproof
Color Change*
Defeatist
Dry Skin
Flash Fire
Fur Coat
Gorilla Tactics
Huge Power
Ice Scales
Libero*
Levitate
Lightning Rod
Magic Guard
Mimicry*
Motor Drive
Parental Bond
Protean*
Pure Power
Regenerator
Sap Sipper
Slow Start
Stall
Storm Drain
Truant
Volt Absorb
Water Absorb
Water Bubble

*These abilities can only be considered for an unban if the Ability stage is done before typing.
Ball Fetch
Battery
Big Pecks
Friend Guard
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Pickup
Power Spot
Power of Alchemy
Propeller Tail
Receiver
Run Away
Stalwart
Symbiosis
Telepathy
 
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Tadasuke

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Alright pals, following the completion of both Concept Assessment 2 and the Typing Poll, we're now ready to begin the second Primary Ability Discussion!

To recap what's happened in the past few stages, after winning the first Primary Ability Discussion, Tinted Lens was assigned to CAP 30i to assist in its role as a Utility Wallbreaker. Following that, the results of our Typing Poll gave us the gift of Poison/Flying as the typing for both of CAP 30's forms. Due to the fact that so much has been learned about CAP 30 since our previous discussion, I feel that we can start this discussion off essentially where we last left off. With all that in mind, here are the questions I'd like to pose.
  • How does knowing our typing affect abilities that were previously discussed? Which are made more effective by it? Which are made worse? Why?
  • Are there any abilities that didn’t receive much attention in the previous discussion that are now bolstered by our typing?
  • In what ways does having an open item slot affect our choices for an ability? How does our typing play into this?

I'm going to leave discussion for this open for about 48 hours then come back with more questions.
 
  • How does knowing our typing affect abilities that were previously discussed? Which are made more effective by it? Which are made worse? Why?
A short (not complete) list of abilities discussed last time around are Berserk, Cotton Down, Filter, Fur Coat/Ice Scales, Merciless, Mirror Armor, Poison Touch, Rattled, Simple, Steam Engine, Triage, and Weak Armor.

Among those, the most obvious victor is Merciless, as that directly requires a poison state on the opponent, which is easily applicable from a variety of Poison STAB attacks, as well as our 100% accurate Toxic.

Filter looks like a Rock Solid option as well, as this typing has 4 weaknesses, including the common Electric and Psychic typings. A poison that is able to not be too scared of Future Sight, or a Flying type that can safely tank an electric hit is certainly an interesting prostpect.

Steam Engine and Rattled are not as good here. We don't have any major resists from that pool aside from U-Turn, so we will be forced to play a lot more risky to get any value from those abilities by switching into neutral hits. I think that those abilities have lost a lot of their value and were made worse.

I think that Triage also suffers to an extent. On one hand, we do not have any draining STAB attacks like how Grass has Giga Drain or Fighting has Drain Punch. What we can do is Triage Roost, but that is not something that is type exclusive, and it feels like a bit of a waste of the ability.

Personally, I think that being able to combine Poison Touch with STAB contact moves such as Brave Bird/Dual Wingbeat/Drill Peck or Poison Jab is still a viable solution as well. The former are a selection of contact Flying moves that have varying levels of value and can put in work while also threatening Poison. The latter turns Poison Jab into a very consistent status applying punch that will result in most opponents with the Poison status. Historically, Alolan Muk was used (in UU) to apply poison with its STAB Kncok Off and Poison Jab combo, so while we don't have the best typing, we do have one that can benefit from it.

  • Are there any abilities that didn’t receive much attention in the previous discussion that are now bolstered by our typing?
There are two big ones in my opinion worth mentioning. One because of Flying, and one because of Poison. Those are Gale Wings and Corrosion. The former has seen lots of usage on Talonflame in the past, up until Gale Wings got nerfed. We have a less bad typing that doesn't take 50% damage from Rocks, and making this route at least worth the mention. As for Corrosion, our defensive Poison typing is perfect for enabling 30b to put in work as a defensive Toxic spreader that is not hard walled by threats like Heatran and Toxapex. This is doubly interesting as our combo does not have any STAB SE moves against either of these Pokemon, instead giving us options to explore countering them differently with 30b as opposed to how our Tinted Lens 30i can try to put in work with neutral hits.


  • In what ways does having an open item slot affect our choices for an ability? How does our typing play into this?
Harvest exists still? There are also abilities like Ripen, Gluttony and Cheek Pouch that synergize with berries. Aside from that, we also have Sticky Hold, but our typing is not Knock resistant, so that is probably not route worth taking.
 
How does knowing our typing affect abilities that were previously discussed? Which are made more effective by it? Which are made worse? Why?

Made Worse:

Poison Touch
and Merciless are, I would argue, pretty bad choices here. Unlike 30i, 30b is walled by essentially every Steel-type in the meta (and the Steels are plentiful). This means that our primary switch-ins will be completely unaffected by either of these two abilities. I think they're just not good options for 30b.

Obviously unless Oblivion Wing is unlocked for discussion, Triage becomes a lot less desirable due to no STAB draining moves.

Made better:

Cotton Down
and Stamina become quite interesting due to our 3 quad-resists. There are a lot of attacks in the meta that we just sit on for days. It's also a nice way of punishing U-turn, which we 4x resist.

Filter is really nice to augment our already really cool defensive typing. I personally think a defensive role would be a really nice way to differentiate us from 30i, and the typing lends itself to such a role in spades.

Corrosion is a really cool way to punish our most common switch-in, Steel-types. It lends itself nicely to a defensive role and I think is one of the most interesting of the previously-discussed abilities.

Might try to collect my thoughts on the other questions but this is what I've got for now.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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How does knowing our typing affect abilities that were previously discussed? Which are made more effective by it? Which are made worse? Why?
Abilities That Are Worse:

Rattled / Steam Engine:
Poison/Flying doesn't particularly have the resists that these two would need, so I have a very hard time seeing them carry forward.

Triage: This is basically just Roost from the STAB pickings, so unless you pull from other types (or kj fulfills the prophecy of the universe and gives us Oblivion Wing which he won't) this ability wouldn't get far.

Download/Berserk: These are offensive abilities by nature, and Griseous-boosted Tinted Lens is already fulfilling that niche pretty solidly. I don't think they are completely off the table since they could serve as a nice supplement to keep a more defensive 30b not passive but these two for certain have an uphill battle, especially Berserk.

Abilities That Are Better:

Cotton Down/Filter/Stamina:
These abilities are defensive so us having a good defensive typingis great for them. Stand out one is probably Stamina from this group just because our solid resistances means we can stack up boosts really well.

Corrosion: Very ability that actually addresses this typing's natural stop: Steel-types. Could be a very interesting niche for it on teams and offers some very unique defensive utility.

Thick Fat: Turning our ice weakness neutral in a Weavile-dominant meta is big, and the extra fire resistance only helps to supplement our defensive typing further. Its a very safe option but a very solid one nonetheless.

Basically everything else I remain solidly neutral on in terms of their benefit.

In what ways does having an open item slot affect our choices for an ability? How does our typing play into this?
Berry abilities (Ripen, Gluttony, Harvest, Cheek Pouch) once again become an option but they are still a pretty not great option due to their inherent flaws (being a consumable, generally niche uses).

I guess since we can lose our item Sticky Hold becomes a thing? It's pretty jank though and realistically the unknockable item should really stay a niche to 30i more than anything.
 
  • How does knowing our typing affect abilities that were previously discussed? Which are made more effective by it? Which are made worse? Why?
  • Are there any abilities that didn’t receive much attention in the previous discussion that are now bolstered by our typing?
  • In what ways does having an open item slot affect our choices for an ability? How does our typing play into this?

Obviously there are some abilities, which work better with our new type than others.
I think these abilities are going to be bad or useless with our chosen typing:
  • Flower Veil (we‘re not grass)
  • Poison Touch (has really bad synergy, as steels are the easiest switch ins
  • Berserk (without TL these stabs are really not great and unless we’re making an incredibly bulky booster I don’t think this will work out well)
  • Cheek Pouch (No room for berries on a mon, that wants to run boots)
  • Contrary (maybe could work since fighting moves complement the stabs pretty well and it could be interesting to have an off stab user, but it also feels a little poll jumpy to me as you really need those moves to make it work)
  • Competitive/Defiant (same as berserk although at least we might be able to trigger them fairly often as we easily switch into moonblasts and Lando might want to answer poison moves)
  • Download (Same as berserk)
  • Merciless (same as poison touch)
  • Quick feet (was this ever going to be good)
  • Rattled (don’t think This can abuse it)
  • Steam engine (still might work but the synergy isn’t great)
  • Triage (unless oblivion wing)
  • Contact abilities (poison/flying isn’t great into a lot of common physical attacks atm/ or doesn’t really want to take them)
These on the other Hand have great synergy:
  • Corrosion (this typing forces in steels, which it then can poison and beats clef :clefable: which is the most important status absorber outside of those)
  • Water Immunities (let’s us switch into Shifu :Urshifu: and fini :Tapu Fini:for ever)
  • Filter (This typing is already great defensively, Filter makes it even better)
  • Fire resists or immunities (now we answer Heatran and other mons running fire ground coverage)
  • Gale wings (without the nerf this obviously would be great, but I think poison flying has enough opportunities to get to full health, that it could actually make it work Post nerf)
  • Ice Scales (let’s us switch into fairies forever and probably makes a very obnoxious special wall)
  • Magic bounce (it has a solid matchup against several hazard setters (if you ignore knock)
  • Screen Cleaner (50/50 vs alolatales :ninetales alola:, eats Koko:Tapu Koko:/ Lucha:Hawlucha:unless koko starts running elec moves
  • Serene grace (i don’t want this but air slash sludge Bomb sounds very stupid)
  • Sheer Force (make air slash good already, although life orb doesn’t necessarily fit the typing and the stabs are still pretty easily walled so it depends on stats and coverage)
  • Sticky Hold (the running gag, but makes obviously sense on a SR weak typing)
  • Thick Fat (gets its own mention bc it makes a Tran switch in AND removes a weakness
  • Water Bubble (are we free to talk about it?)(fire resist plus burn immune plus water super stab, which makes a great offensive trio with its other two stabs)
 
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MrDollSteak

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  • Are there any abilities that didn’t receive much attention in the previous discussion that are now bolstered by our typing?
I think everyone's done a good job so far explaining which abilities are made worse and as such I'm skipping ahead to this question. As others have pointed out Corrosion is the obvious winner here as we are completely unable to get through Steel-types otherwise, meaning that we can receive the full utility from this ability. It is an incredibly powerful ability so it is realistically going to be important to balance around it carefully, but at least on typing alone I would say it offers a similar power level to Tinted Lens without either outshining the other. Furthermore it doesn't strictly suggest whether 30b will be offensive or defensive which I think is great. It is also worth pointing out that Baneful Bunker can trigger off of Corrosion meaning we don't specifically have to tunnel down the Toxic route, even if it is the most obvious one.

Magic Bounce is realistically a contentious option because it skirts the line of being an ability that has been pretty optimised in the past but not this generation. It works particularly well with our typing due to our solid matchups against most of the current common setters apart from Heatran in a vacuum.

Thick Fat is another obvious choice in terms of removing its Ice-type weakness to improve its Weavile matchup slightly, while also becoming a more solid switchin to Heatran and Astrolotl. That being said this ability would still require some more synergy in terms of moves, which while fairly easy to achieve could potentially be jeopardised in the future.

Another option is Serene Grace, which will pretty gross in a vacuum, synergises really well with our typing in terms of boosting some of our most common stabs in Sludge Bomb and Air Slash.

While I was not really a fan of the contact-based abilities in our first discussion, abilities such as Effect Spore, Poison Point and Wandering Spirit could potentially be very effective due to our quadruple resists of some common attacking types, as well as our likeliness to be forced to tank Knock Offs. Of these options, Wandering Spirit is one that I think could work out really nicely in that it can potentially swing our Zeraora matchup and force a switch depending on the move we come in on, steal Regenerator from Toxapex or Tornadus-Therian or Magic Guard from Clefable, or at the very least discourage them from Knocking or U-Turning on us.
  • In what ways does having an open item slot affect our choices for an ability? How does our typing play into this?
I think the key here is that it allows us to build both defensively or offensively. While the majority of the time we will probably be running Heavy-Duty Boots, as we have seen from the current metagame this doesn't specifically force us to be one or the other, with many Rocks-weak offensive Pokemon choosing to run it for longevity. While a Rocks weakness is pretty irritating, we can still choose to run items such as Black Sludge or Choice items depending on our build, particularly if we end up with certain ability combinations, as we do still skip out on Spikes damage.
 
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I dont have much to add outside of Jewvia's excellent post, and would throw support behind Gale wings and Corrosion.

I would also like to suggest the Crit Abilities be considered: Super Luck/Sniper. Both flying and Poison have moves which have high Crit: but due to to 30b having a free item slot, Power Herb with a High Crit Sky Attack is like bringing back ZNuke strats, and there are a number of coverage options that it can take advantage of. With Super Luck, we still need another boost for guaranteed crits so either cant use Power Herb or needs a Focus Energy. FE isnt required, but if it was made available, then that +2 stages with those high crit moves would help it wallbreak with Tinted Lens as CAP30i as it would mean neutrals cant try to defense buff their way out.

Cloud Nine is another option that I think fits Poison/Flying - although not a dragon, so has no resistances to TRULY capitalise, the only boosted moves that it is SE weak to is Thunder and Blizzard. Jumbao being 4* weak to Poison and not getting the big heal from Synthesis is a problem for it, Ninetales not being able to Veil, and risking a miss with Blizzard while also SE weak to poison really puts a spanner in Hail Teams. Removing Rain boosts from the likes of Urshifu-R, or indeed cutting the legs out from any Swift Swimmer reliant on that speed and being able to shred with flying STAB is strong. At worst, you waste turns of the active weather, at best, you can force a switch which you can heal/toxic on.

Conversely, you can make use of Hydration/Leaf Guard to absorb status for the team. I like Hydration more, despite the boosted Scalds, mainly because of Heatran being buffed under Sun when it also resists both STABs.
 
I'm already late to the party, so most of my points are basically just throwing more support at stuff that was already mentioned. The newest thing I can add is a more comprehensive list of previously discussed abilities:
Poison Touch
Filter
Stamina
Simple
Download
Cotton Down
Rattled
Steam Engine
Berserk
Merciless
Mirror Armor
Competitive
Shed Skin
No Guard
Technician
Fur Coat
Ice Scales
Weak Armor
Gooey/Tangling Hair
Battle Armor/Shell Armor
Justified
Shield Dust
Sand Spit
Mold Breaker
Wandering Spirit
Gale Wings
Water Compaction
Water Bubble
Flower Veil
Magic Bounce
Analytic
-ate abilities (Aerilate, Refrigerate, Pixilate, Galvanize)
Field Dependent Abilities (Swift Swim, Hydration, Chlorophyll, Solar Power, Sand Rush, Sand Force, Slush Rush, Surge Surfer, Grassy Pelt, etc.)
Item Based Abilities (Unburden, Ripen, Gluttony, etc.)
I chose Post 29 as the cutoff point, as this is Tadasuke's first post focusing the discussion. Before this, the thread is mostly general lists of abilities, many of which do not get mentioned again in the thread. Otherwise, I obviously went for general comprehensiveness in this list, because there are an absolute ton of abilities here, and not all of them are very viable in the face of Poison/Flying.

How does knowing our typing affect abilities that were previously discussed? Which are made more effective by it? Which are made worse? Why?
Based on the typing, we know a couple of things:

1. Without Tinted Lens, this STAB combination is not the best offensively. Poison/Flying is pretty cool when you get to bust up Steel-types with your Flying STAB, but without it, most teams will be carrying something that can eat CAP30's STABs for days, without even making a concerted effort to do so. As mentioned before, this type's strengths most lie on utility and defensive sides, with its nice combination of resistances and immunities and the poison chance that exists on basically any common Poison STAB move. Unless we have another ability that can push the offensive power like Tinted Lens does (or just stack it with a bunch of strong coverage), it would be easier to lean into those defensive qualities and avoid competing with 30i. As a result, we are probably better off looking at more defensive or utility-based abilities, rather than purely offensively leaning ones like Download.

2. This Pokemon will likely be holding Heavy-Duty Boots a lot. Yes, there are exceptions for offensively inclined Pokemon who really want the extra power afforded to them by Choice items or Life Orb, as was discussed in previous threads, but in the vast majority of cases, Stealth Rock-weak Pokemon will take Boots, regardless of role. This is further bolstered by the previously mentioned fact that this typing's strengths lie in its defensive qualities, while its offensive power goes down without Tinted Lens. This is pretty likely to throw out item-based abilities, as the opportunity cost of not running Boots is high enough that these are not likely to be worth the effort on our part.

Scanning the lists, we have some very safe defensive picks in Filter, Fur Coat, and Ice Scales. Stamina, Cotton Down, and even Poison Point also play into our defensive attributes by giving us benefits for taking hits. Gale Wings mostly just benefits because the typing actually lines up with it, but it could provide some extra utility through priority Flying moves on a type that otherwise has no STAB priority. If we really want to take an offensive route, No Guard has some potential in combination with Hurricane or Gunk Shot, and there are some other coverage moves that could pair with the ability to compensate for the typing's offensive shortcomings (Focus Blast comes to mind).

On the other hand, I'm inclined to agree that Steel-types being the go-to type to come in on us means that Poison Touch and Merciless don't seem that great. Technician gets Dual Wingbeat, but is otherwise fairly starved for options. Triage barely has anything to work with besides priority Roost. Competitive(/Defiant) help with potential passivity, but they are hindered by the middling offensive capabilities of the typing. As mentioned by LucarioOfLegends, Justified, Rattled, and Steam Engine would probably prefer resists we don't have, and even if opponents might want to Knock our boots off, the boosts from Justified and Rattled do not seem worth it.

Are there any abilities that didn’t receive much attention in the previous discussion that are now bolstered by our typing?
One ability that got mentioned on Discord but didn't receive press in the thread is Thick Fat. This ability patches up the typing's Ice weakness, as well as providing it an extra resistance to Fire, further boosting the typing's defensive utility. Corrosion also has some potential, given the amount of Steel-types that are likely to switch in on 30b to try to eat its STAB attacks, although this may involve spending two slots on both Toxic and Poison-type STAB.

In what ways does having an open item slot affect our choices for an ability? How does our typing play into this?
I basically hit on this question earlier, but our item slot is pretty likely to have Heavy-Duty Boots in it already, due to the characteristics of our typing. This means that strictly item-based abilities and strategies are not in great shape, and it may be difficult to try to get this Pokemon to run offensive items without sufficient coverage and/or an extremely strong offensive ability that can help its STABs on a level similar to Tinted Lens.
 
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Estronic

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Most of things I agree with have already been mentioned here, so I'm not going to rehash them in another post, but I will mention that I believe that discussion in regards to Filter and Thick Fat should happen. While both have a common niche in patching up a weakness to Ice, their overall differences could mean the differences in what CAP30b can and cannot face well. Most of Poison / Flying's weaknesses are often seen as typings for coverage moves, notably Ice and Electric, so Filter being able to reduce damage from all super effective attacks as a whole can really assist CAP30b with a useful defensive niche. In general, Filter is just a catch-all type of ability. On the contrary, Thick Fat still can target Ice-type coverage, but it would be able to potentially target certain Fire-types like Heatran specifically alongside that. Choosing one or the other can ultimately change the potential outcome of future stages completely, so this could definitely warrant some discussion.
 
Are there any abilities that didn’t receive much attention in the previous discussion that are now bolstered by our typing?

I was definitely a fan of the prospect of Merciless during the first ability discussion, however now that the typing of Poison/Flying is decided, I can definitively admit that there isn't a lot to gain. While 30i has Tinted Lens to break through would be resist from a typically below average offensive typing, 30b is immediately going to struggle with steels. Merciless leaves us limited in this case and could fall into the pit-trap of being underwhelming as a result. A general consensus seems to have formed around making 30i the more offensive mon and 30b the more bulky/defensive, and Poison/Flying is a deceptively good defensive typing with a very handy immunity to ground/toxic and 4x resistances to grass, bug, and fighting (all common coverage, but more so u-turn for bug). Corrosion is definitely now much more favorable thanks in part to the typing chosen. It is an ability that definitely could be further optimized (which aligns great with the concept), but it can also allow 30b to not be an underwhelming threat much like how most dragons are shut down by the switch-in of fairies. It gives it some handy utility versatility and a slow-burn answer to steel switch-ins. Pairing that with access to HDB or Black Sludge could improve on the shortcomings Crobat has ran into as a defensive pivot (a Pokemon that we've seen successfully don the Poison/Flying typing on the defensive end thanks largely to its great speed and utility options like defog and taunt).
 

Zetalz

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Hate to be the one bringing the doom and gloom but I've seen several people talk about it both here and in discord and frankly been kind of surprised at the reception of it, because I really don't like Corrosion for this. Out of the options leftover from the previous ability stage Corrosion stands head and shoulders above the rest and is easily one of if not the highest power option available, as has been pointed out. My problem begins with the fact that going really hard in on two abilities that will require careful balancing (Corrosion far more so because it could beyond obnoxious if we're not careful) is going to hamstring us, especially as we go into stats. It's important to remember we're making two forms here and what we do with one will impact the other, and I feel Corrosion is going to cause more harm than anything.

There was a lengthy back-and-forth in Discord tonight about the intricacies of balancing a Corrosion mon and almost the entirety of discussion was revolving around the same core idea that Corrosion is so inherently strong that we would be incentivized to make a much lower BST mon and/or a very low viability mon just to prevent it from becoming unhealthy. But the way it was said was in such a way that it implied doing so would not only be desirable for the sake of balancing Corrosion, but Tinted Lens as well. Truthfully this kind of idea is baffling to me at this stage of the project. Tinted Lens is a very strong ability but with the typing we've ended up with, I think it'd be pretty difficult for us to shoot Poison/Flying TL over the moon if we were to go about our usual fare of stat limits being honest. I have enough faith in our ability to not go overboard with TL, but I can say I have less faith in our ability to balance the two forms if we're forced into a position where Tinted Lens needs more than it's able to receive, all because we bent over backwards for Corrosion's sake.

I understand where the basic idea of wanting Corrosion comes from, it is a very unique thing to differentiate from 30i and gives the forme something to do, but it without question a very tricky thing to balance. Contrary to what many seem to believe we do NOT need to have an ability at the same level as Lens to do both something different and viable. If we weren't doing two forms I wouldn't have any issue with it whatsoever but it just does not sit right with me that people think we should either A) Make a Corrosion mon that can be at the same power-level as the Tinted Lens user and have it be healthy or B) That potentially and purposefully skewering 30i is a good design parameter we should be striving for.


And just so this post isn't all negative nancy'ing I'll answer one of Tada's questions too <3

How does knowing our typing affect abilities that were previously discussed? Which are made more effective by it? Which are made worse? Why?
The defensive ability options leftover still ring quite soundly I think. Filter, Stamina, Fluffy & Thick Fat all provide 30b with options to expand it's switch-in potential even further in their own ways. Out of these I'm still particularly fond of Stamina & Filter, Stamina for it's option to let 30b even more comfortably handle physical attackers not named Urshifu or Melmetal (and actually letting it live a Triple Axel from Weavile if we have even a modicum of good bulk lol) and Filter for giving 30b a valuable reduction to common Electric & Ice coverage. Fluffy & Thick Fat are also very cool options for giving us an actually decent switch-in opportunies to previously mentioned monsters like shifu and melm for the former, or letting 30b actually be a decent in to Heatran (and also not insta-die to Weavile) with the latter.
 

dex

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I want to give my thoughts on the currently talked about defensive abilities. Just to be clear, I don't think by any means that we are strapped into using a defensive ability here, but it does seem to be a hot topic at the moment.

Stamina: Stamina seems a lot stronger than it is. While at first glance Stamina seems really nice since those boosts really can add up, there is no initial presence with the ability. It's a fairly easy ability to play around, and I don't think Poison/Flying does too well with it given that Knock Off all but ruins this ability's strategy.

Filter: I admit, as a Filter fanboy, that I'm not as hyped about Filter anymore. I do think that it would still work quite well, but our typing pits us against many of the tier's strongest breakers like Tapu Lele and Tapu Koko. Filter can definitely work, but I'm not as sold on it now as I was before

Fluffy: Now this is an ability I am really interested in. Fluffy's conditional buff is really quite interesting in the current metagame considering that most physical attackers, but not all, make contact, giving CAP 30b a very unique defensive profile. I consider Fluffy to just do Stamina's job better and in a more interesting way.

Thick Fat: I don't know how to feel about this one exactly. I think, realistically, CAP 30b is only really getting use out of this vs. Ice-types, since Fire-types may end up being a wash due to CAP 30i's undetermined relationship with the best Fire-type in the tier: Heatran. I think there is potential here, but I'm not too sure about it yet.
 
I think the concern about Corrosion is legitimate, but perhaps a little bit overblown. A comparison that has come up in the Discord is Heatran, a mon which kills every Toxic resist with the exception of maybe just Fini, and therefore can Toxic things with more or less complete impunity. A kill will always be better than getting a toxic off on something, so for instance trapping and killing a Toxapex is more powerful than poisoning it. Despite being able to assure a poison or better yet, a kill, Heatran isn't considered broken, because it can be offensively pressured quite easily and there are defensive answers to it as well. So while guaranteed poison is very good, I don't think it's inherently broken, and while we'd have to be careful with stats, I don't think we'd need to neuter this mon just to make it not broken. I'm somewhat worried about the more defensive abilities being able to do anything against the ubiquitous steels in the meta, and this is one way to ensure that we'll have counterplay to them.

Edit: I have been told that 1) Heatran is not a mon we should be drawing comparisons to and 2) I underestimated Heatran counterplay due to greater prediction reliance, not always being able to reliably kill mons like Pex and Glowking, and such. I'm more convinced now that Corrosion would be overpowered.
 
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My first post was pretty short breathed and I didn’t go much into detail with a lot of what I posted.
I want to do so on contact abilities now.
Even if our typing has an incredible set of resists, I don’t think we‘ll be able to take full advantage of some abilities, that need our opponent to make contact to trigger.
The reason for this is, that Poison/Flying either doesnt have the best Match Up against the most common physical attackers (:Weavile::Urshifu::Zeraora::Arctozolt:) ordoesn’t want to take some physical attacks even if the MU is good (mostly random Knock offs)
It is great into :Rillaboom: and :Tapu Bulu: and probably solid into :Buzzwole:.
I think this disqualifies any contact ability, that doesn’t reduce damage from physical attackers. This basically leaves Flame Body and Fluffy imo although Iron Barbs/Rough Skin might still have some merit.
 

spoo

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Going to give general thoughts on many abilities suggested last time and separate them out into options I like + dislike

Abilities that are cool / are at the least not a bad choice for us:
Corrosion:
This one is awesome, but still does scare me a bit. A mon that beats Clefable and is exclusively walled by steel-types that has the potential to bypass them over the course of a game is big fear (although I doubt we would take it quite this far). Although like, even trashmon Salazzle of all things was briefly viable in past metas just because of its ability, and not even because it used it selfishly to get past its checks, but because being able to toxic Pex was worth a teamslot alone. This ability would need to have some severe limitations that come with it, with these limitations also not affecting 30i too much. All that said though, I'm still pretty high on this ability. One that will need to be handled with care for sure but it's also not impossible and could lead down some really interesting avenues.

Water Bubble:
This was banned during Ability 1 but I do think it should be given another chance now that we have more information about what we're working with. Yes this ability is very good. No this ability is not impossible to balance, and no it's not surefire that we will overshadow 30i with it. Imo this is even easier to balance than corrosion. This ability gives us a lot of incredible things: a fire resist is huge against Heatran (already immune to toxic+ep), burn immunity opens up reliable physical flying STAB, and having effectively a 3rd STAB move shores up the otherwise offensively poor combo of poison+flying. The most notable thing here is obviously the last one; doubling the power of water-type moves is an absurdly big upside, but if all it takes to balance this ability is to limit the BP of water-type moves we give out, then it's hard not to see that as doable for us. I do not see this ability as that dangerous, and overall it's one of my standout picks at this initial stage.

Gale Wings:
This ability is pretty bad in general but I think there are a few key things to keep in mind regarding it. Mostly BB + Gale Wings has heavy anti synergy, and the only other Pokemon who can run this is 4x weak to Rocks which makes it very hard to stay at full health, + Talon doesn't really have the offensive stats to utilize lower BP physical flying stabs/non-damaging special stab in lieu of BB. 30b could pretty easily abuse something like Drill Peck/Hurricane to be a super threatening conditional revenge killer, or like a breaker that is super hard to rkill if it's at 100%, idk just exploring the importance of HP and preserving health in a different way is cool to me. This is definitely one of the weaker choices but I think it still has a pretty good amount of room as long as we give it coverage for steels (this goes most every ability here and isn't a big assumption).

Sticky Hold:
Admittedly kinda boring but it still does a decent amount for us. Totally blanking most knock+toxic users (known busted combo) is really cool, and just turns a lot of like 60-70% positive matchups into 90-100% ones. Being a pex switchin, dealing with lando/colo/clef/rillaboom etc etc, isn't half bad, and in general like I said just leans into most matchups that we'd already win but at the cost of our item. I feel like this ability gives us a very clear direction to move forward with and has pretty defined uses, but otherwise it's still a little bland and I do ultimately prefer other options.

Thick Fat + Filter:
Grouping these together cus they're pretty similar. Between the two, I like Thick Fat a lot more though. I would much rather be a fantastic Heatran switchin that can also sorta take a hit from Weavile/Kyurem (kinda like how Corv can) than just be slightly less weak to a bunch of mons that we probably still lose to anyways. Filter was previously discussed as being cool offensively - eg Necrozma - but it really wouldn't be enough to overcome how bad poison/flying are without TL helping, and defensively I just don't know how much it would actually help us either - 25% reduction is cool but still underwhelming to me. It's not a bad choice but yeah I do prefer Thick Fat, although neither is especially eye catching to me in the first place.

Berserk:
This is not an immediately strong choice for us, but I really don't think it's all that bad. Once again Berserk + Recover is a very good combo, and with any coverage to hit steels, the ability turns very usable despite our poor STAB combo. Not much more to say about this - I think we are still pretty capable of "optimizing" it, especially since Molt-G uses it in a totally different way from how we would ideally be abusing it. Don't immediately discount this one imo.

Stamina:
Been covered a lot already by other people but I do like it quite a bit. It lets us get a ton of mileage out of our 4x resists, and Body Press gives us coverage to hit Steel-types. Leans into our defensive strength while giving us more "outs" offensively, I can see this one working.

Lastly just want to also endorse Ice Scales/Fluffly/Fur Coat, the strength of these abilities before was that they allow for defensive builds where BST restrictions may otherwise prevent them from being fully viable and this hasn't really changed. We have a pretty cool defensive typing rn and these are fine options to look at

Stuff I do not like:
Poison Touch/Merciless:
What viol and bass said. Steel-types already wall us, these abilities give 30b absolutely nothing

Magic Bounce:
Game warping as all hell. This ability has a higher ceiling to affect the meta in much more disastrous and centralizing ways than even something like Corrosion. This is only compounded by the fact that we already match up quite well against common SR setters due to our typing. Hard no from me

Simple:
This one is a little more nuanced but I still am kinda wary of it. In Ability 1 it was "we can abuse traditionally poor setup without also giving those setup options to our other forme" and now it's like "we will need to use simple+good setup to actually overcome how bad poison/flying is offensively," which is totally different and means that we may need to give proper setup moves to 30i and I don't want to do that

Download:
Just don't think this ability offers enough of what we want offensively and may also creep into the same territory as 30i with its very offensively inclined ability in TL. Maybe 30i is a utility breaker and we are some kind of frailer pivot or whatever, sure there is room for differentiation but at that point there is very little left to explore that mons like Genesect haven't covered already. Anyways yea I don't like this one and it seems like other people don't as well
 
Just a quick note:
I guess since we can lose our item Sticky Hold becomes a thing? It's pretty jank though and realistically the unknockable item should really stay a niche to 30i more than anything.
Sticky Hold:
Admittedly kinda boring but it still does a decent amount for us. Totally blanking most knock+toxic users (known busted combo) is really cool, and just turns a lot of like 60-70% positive matchups into 90-100% ones. Being a pex switchin, dealing with lando/colo/clef/rillaboom etc etc, isn't half bad, and in general like I said just leans into most matchups that we'd already win but at the cost of our item. I feel like this ability gives us a very clear direction to move forward with and has pretty defined uses, but otherwise it's still a little bland and I do ultimately prefer other options.
It is worth remembering that Sticky Hold causes Knock Off to always have its boosted 97.5-power. While this isn’t a major issue vs weaker mons like :toxapex: or :clefable:, it can be a serious problem vs mons like :colossoil:, :weavile:, :landorus-therian:, or :rillaboom:, as now they have a 100-BP attack they can spam at you for free. As such, it would not actually turn Knock Off into a move you can switch in on in a majority of cases.

Best to leave the Knock absorption to 30i, as it actually takes the reduced 65-power damage, and keeps its ability slot while doing it.
 

spoo

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Just a quick note:



It is worth remembering that Sticky Hold causes Knock Off to always have its boosted 97.5-power. While this isn’t a major issue vs weaker mons like :toxapex: or :clefable:, it can be a serious problem vs mons like :colossoil:, :weavile:, :landorus-therian:, or :rillaboom:, as now they have a 100-BP attack they can spam at you for free. As such, it would not actually turn Knock Off into a move you can switch in on in a majority of cases.

Best to leave the Knock absorption to 30i, as it actually takes the reduced 65-power damage, and keeps its ability slot while doing it.
It's true that this is a limiting factor and a point against Sticky Hold's effectiveness, but the issue still isn't that big of a deal ultimately. The suggestion that we could comfortably switch in on Weavile with any ability barring a select few aside, the rest of the three offensive mons listed as examples are totally feasible; Colossoil has STAB but runs no Attack investment so we can easily avoid this 2HKO with any level of bulk (80/80 with max hp survives the 2hko with room to spare), Lando knock does next to no damage, and Rilla's knock is admittedly a nuke but the fact that we'd have Sticky Hold means that we face significantly less risk from switching in, and Rillaboom would have far less to gain from mindlessly clicking it. Sorta like switching Scizor in on Specs Kyurem's Focus Blast; sure it'll do 50-60%, but that's all, and you can switch out to a fighting-type resist and heal it off later.

Also I think it helps to think of Sticky Hold less in the context of "general knock absorber" and more in the context of "this heavily improves our matchup against X common pivots." The role of "knock absorber" is basically an impossible feat anyways, because designing a mon that can switch in on all of zera/weavile/colo/sd scizor/clefable/rillaboom/etc is just not reasonable. There's nothing against having both formes occupy the minor niche of "un-knockable item" as they will likely be doing different things and occupying much different niches more broadly.

Anyways, despite this post sounding like it argues hard for Sticky Hold - like I said originally, Sticky Hold isn't my favorite option or even close to it, but yeah I don't think this is a very persuasive argument against it so I just wanted to clarify my POV that it's far from the worst choice for us here
 

Brambane

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I have three (technically four) abilities that haven't been really discussed so far that I think synergize pretty well with the Poison/Flying typing:

Battle Armor
What would be a pretty ho-hum ability on 99% of Pokemon could actually see legitimate value on CAP30b. I am going to have to make some movepool assumptions, since this ability would require explicit movepool synergy to get the most out of it, so bear with my mild poll-jumpiness here. Our typing already gives us resists to Fighting and Bug, but Battle Armor would give us a pseudo-resist to Surging Strikes. The ability has more to offer than just making Urshi weep. Battle Armor fits best on Pokemon that want to set-up with some kind of defensive boosting sweeper (CM, BU, Iron Defense, Cosmic Power, or Acupressure if ur on crack) to deny your opponent the option of fishing for crits. Poison/Flying imo is one of the BEST possible types for this style of Pokemon, and here's why:
  1. Immunity to Toxic: part of why Chromera is inconsistent and Volc ran Safeguard for a bit, Toxic is the bane of bulky boosters
  2. STAB for Argh: Unaware and Circle Throw would be annoying, but Flying means the blanket sweeper check has to think twice
  3. Strong mono-coverage: Flying is one of the best mono-coverage types, making room for boosting, recovery, and utility in the set
  4. Defensive utility: our good defensive typing allows us to serve of pivoting role mid-game, and set-up for sweeping endgame in the same slot
The complications that could arise with this ability is two-fold. The first one is making sure our boosting move doesn't push our 30i form in an overwhelming strong direction by bolstering its offenses, but imo that is the easiest problem to avoid. The second, more difficult, problem is making a Pokemon that is straight up unenjoyable/MU fishy to play against. Obviously Haze/Whirlwind/etc would still stop us short, but anyone who has faced shit like CM Cresselia or Cosmic Power Mew know that losing to these kind of defensive sweepers can feel straight up awful, even if the strategy is viable and ultimately leads to more diversity in team compositions. In spite of these two downsides, I think Battle Armor gives us a rather unique and pointed direction.

Strong Jaw
What do you do when your STAB combination is mediocre? Give it more STABs! And a stronger Poison Fang I guess...

Strong Jaw is uniquely positioned because the moves that benefit from it would probably see very little or no use on the Tinted Lens form because high BP Flying STABs would straight-up outdamage them. On the flipside, pseudo-STAB Crunch, Fire Fang, Ice Fang, etc would greatly expand our offensive potential if we want 30b to lean more offensively. Crunch would be the big one imo, since we would combine the defensive traits of Poison/Flying with the offensive traits of Dark/Flying STAB! This is a kind of hard ability to pitch since it would mean both forms are directly offensive in some capacity. I don't mind that at all; if both forms serve different team functions offensively that they play and feel distinct, then we have positioned them both to succeed on their own team comps.

Ripen/Cheek Pouch
Absolutely meme abilities that I am only entertaining because we have STAB Belch, and thus the meme synergy is tremendous. Imo if we go with these abilities we would have to accept the direction of "30i is the consistent form, 30b is the fun meme form you use against your friends and in team tours." It completely avoids the conversation of one form eclipsing the other by saying that was never a problem to begin with; this form eats fuckin BERRIES. Alternatively, we somehow make a viable Ripen/Cheek Pouch user, which would be a massive accomplishment in its own right. Idk if the CAP community has any interest in making what feels like a "gimmick" CAP, but shit some of the sets I saw in CAPPL makes me think that a Belch user would probably lead to the most engaging and enjoyable discussions.

Other abilities I like:

Corrosion is strong af, but I think it makes a lot of sense for us. Both forms become "Poison-types that dgaf about Steels" which is thematically cohesive for the project and offers a unique space in the teambuilder. Sticky Hold also just makes a lot of sense, albeit it is 100% milquetoast; this one is about functionality, not flashiness. Stamina seems very solid for us based off typing thanks to the Toxic immunity and resists, while Roost adds even more depth to the ability. Thick Fat imo eclipses Filter; I would rather have Ice neutrality and Fire resist than 3/4 Ice, Electric, Rock, and Psychic; I think the design space is superior for Thick Fat if we give it something to beat Heatran. Water Bubble is basically the same argument I had for Strong Jaw + a Fire resist, so I have warmed up to it, even if from an artistic standpoint it seems fucking AWFUL.
 

dex

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Sorry to rain on the party here, but I think Corrosion is just out of this world broken on a typing like this with any semblance of offensive presence. The power of Toxic cannot be understated: it is a very strong move in the hands of the right user. Landing a Toxic on Heatran and Toxapex assuredly guarantees this mon a unique niche, but this Toxic becomes nigh unblockable without one of Clefable, which cannot hit CAP 30 back hard whatsoever, or Blissey, which is an incredibly passive answer. There was talk about how Toxic is not that detrimental if it lands on Pokemon like Zeraora or Dragapult, but that is simply not the case. Zeraora is maimed by Toxic and cannot perform its role nearly as well if it is taking chip every turn. The same goes for Dragapult, which more than anything wants to stay in and use Shadow Ball. The counterplay to Corrosion Toxic is nonexistent. Pretty much every Pokemon not named Clefable or Blissey is extremely crippled by Toxic, and I fear that this would simply break most matchups. When your only switch-in is Clefable or Blissey, you are surpassing Dragapult levels of busted. If the Steel-type matchup is of concern to people, that issue should be solved in defining moves, not with Corrosion.

Edit: The big difference between CAP 30 and Salazzle is the fact that Salazzle very rarely gets to come in and actually click Toxic. It has no bulk, a worse defensive typing, and no coverage. While there are still many unknowns about CAP 30, the act of "balancing Corrosion" would make the mon unviable. There is no in between here. You are either able to click Toxic repeatedly and constantly make progress or you are able to click it maybe once or twice in a match, at which point we are hardly adhering to the concept. Corrosion would warp not only its own but also CAP 30i's process around it in a very unhealthy way.
 
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Brambane

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I don't think Corrosion is inherently broken at all by virtue of precedence. Salazzle has made apprarences in OU here and there, but the Pokemon was well defined weaknesses in virtue of typing, stats, and movepool that clearly limit its power despite its ability. I am not saying "make Salazzle 2.0" but we would have to do the same thing with Corrosion we will do with Tinted Lens: design with weaknesses in mind that prevent CAP30 from being overbearing by itself. The Corrosion fear is overblown. Seems to me more like a lack of faith in the community and TLT in creating a balanced product as oppose to the ability being objectively broken.
 

dex

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I don't think Corrosion is inherently broken at all by virtue of precedence. Salazzle has made apprarences in OU here and there, but the Pokemon was well defined weaknesses in virtue of typing, stats, and movepool that clearly limit its power despite its ability. I am not saying "make Salazzle 2.0" but we would have to do the same thing with Corrosion we will do with Tinted Lens: design with weaknesses in mind that prevent CAP30 from being overbearing by itself. The Corrosion fear is overblown. Seems to me more like a lack of faith in the community and TLT in creating a balanced product as oppose to the ability being objectively broken.
Not to clog the thread here, but just putting this here to summarize some Discord discussion about Corrosion. The biggest problem with Corrosion is that Corrosion absolutely warps the process. It hamstrings the rest of CAP30b's stages to make up for the fact that switching into Corrosion CAP30b is extremely challenging and something that some team archetypes might just not be able to do effectively. Pokemon that pressure CAP30b that normally don't worry about Toxic are actually quite hindered by it. Melmetal, for instance, is particularly harmed by Toxic, as it gets much of its bulk from its high HP. Another example is Weavile, which normally pressures Toxic users like Landorus-T. Weavile has no means of recovery, and the more chip it accrues, the closer it gets into being revenge killed, disallowing it from properly sweeping. Obviously Weavile is not directly impacted by Corrosion, but Corrosion makes Toxic such a spammable move that there are few safe switch-ins to it. Not only does this affect the rest of CAP30b's process, but it also indirectly impacts CAP30i, mostly through their shared movepool but also somewhat through their shared BST. More discussion on the ability would be great since it seems like we are quite divided on the topic.
 
Some abilities I like:

Thick Fat: Gives it an excellent set of resists, swiching into Heatran, Astro, and Volcarona while also not being forced out by Weavile. Not much else to say apart from that I like the idea of the 2nd ability adding to a defensive role and thick fat fits that.

Compoundeyes: Poison and Flying both have inaccurate moves with useful secondary effects. Even a defensive leaning mon would appreciate the additional power as well as moving away from having to use Brave Bird (since this mon is very likely to be HDB and not lefties, using recoilless moves is nice). There are a bunch of smaller non-attacking and non-STAB moves that Psn/Flying would like to use that would benefit from Compoundeyes without it going down the 50% accurate move route which isnt really my fav. Overall good ability here.

Stamina: This is still decent, again not a whole lot to say that wasnt said before. Its a super strong ability that ramps up and pairs with Toxic spamming, or boosting. It doesnt automatically give a mon viability though, so there would still be work to do to make up for Poison and Flying STAB having bad coverage overall. I feel averagely ok about the ability and i think it pops off with specific moves.

Stuff I dislike:

Water Bubble: It just seems to come a bit out of left field, its a strong ability sure but doesnt seem like its necessary to take off the banlist for this, other cool abilities offer parts of this one and something like Thick Fat seems better to me. Ive been a fan of this ability in some projects in the past but the superpowered water moves and burn immunity strike me as random in the context of this, and it doesnt strike me as optimising Water Bubble when it isnt even a water type and getting the most out of its water moves.

Corrosion: Cant really get on board with this one without some really nice examples, and I dont think it ties in nicely with the defensive leaning mon that Im hoping for here. Some peeps have me kinda convinced that its not busted but I also think the landing area for success is really small. Im thinking back to how Salazzle played during its very brief time of success, and I dont that that applies to the current meta so its hard to really judge where the hell Corrosion would land cus it also has no OM examples.

Filter: This isnt my fav filter typing. Its weak to Ice, Electric, and Psychic, and 2 of those typings are basically used exclusively STAB and by wallbreakers currently. This mon is not gunna squeeze much out of Filter in my eyes. Electric isnt used so exclsively by wallbreakers but it still is mostly used as a STAB typing.
 
I'm seeing it pick up steam again, so I'm gonna quickly repost something from an older thread


Before talking about any other abilities, I'd like to look at just Ice Scales/Fur Coat and why I think this is the wrong concept for them. What makes these abilities interesting is that you have to be actively choosing to forgo an ability in order to inflate your stats. For example, Alolan Persian has to choose between Fur Coat and Technician. The problem is its stats suck too much for Technician, so it only uses Fur Coat to bandage its awful defenses. These abilities are interesting when you are given the choice between stats and a powerful ability. What we are looking at, however, is ability optimization. As the core focus of a form, this is a really boring route since we are currently looking at doing 1 core ability per form (or at least that's how I read it.) It might as well just be a stat stage change, I'd rather not see these on this concept.
I am still strongly against going down this route, and think that neither of these abilities are worth their discussion.

To contrast, I think that Thick Fat is fairly interesting for a defensive ability. Its very effective at bandaging one of our weaknesses while giving us a bonus resistance to Fire to further compound our defensive typing. My only question would be if this ability qualifies for our concept. Is this ability optimization, or is this just taking a solid defensive typing and optimizing that with a solid ability? Likewise, does it qualify as a strong but unused ability like Tinted Lens, or is it disqualified because of Pokemon like Mega-Venusaur and Mamoswine that have had plenty of time to prove the prowess of this ability in their own similar way?
 

Estronic

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I don't want to keep dragging on this Corrosion debate, but I wanted to point out something that popped out here that some people may have also been thinking about.

The argument about the fact that Corrosion will be balanced on CAP30b because it isn't overpowered on Salazzle is a bit flawed. Salazzle honestly can't find many opportunities to utilize Corrosion because of how it interacts with the types of Pokemon it's meant to target, Steel- and Poison-types. Steel-types often don't even want to stay in on Salazzle in part due to it running at least one Fire-type move alongside its respectable Special Attack, so even if they stay in for some reason, it would most likely be better just for Salazzle to hit them with such move. Additionally, there aren't many Poison-types that are often used and are viable in the CAP metagame; Toxapex and Galarian Slowking are the only ones that come to mind. While Salazzle actually does in fact have a good matchup against these two Pokemon thanks to Corrosion, the bigger picture shows that it often can't find as many opportunities to utilize it. Putting Corrosion on CAP30b, which has a typing that on paper might have an issue with Steel-types, could potentially be problematic. It's really hard to gauge, though, since we don't know if we want CAP30b to actually have a good matchup against such Steel-types without knowing its potential coverage moves and stats. At this point in the process, however, Corrosion seems to be almost too good for CAP30b, giving it amazing counterplay against a type that its own typing naturally has a disadvantage in, at least in terms of its potential STAB options.
 
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