CAP 31 - Part 10 - Moveset Discussion

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Quanyails

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CAP Co-Leader
CAP 31 So Far

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In this stage, we are determining the required and disallowed competitive moves by creating a list of approved movesets. The movesets will be decided based on the competitive needs and limitations of this project. We are not submitting full movepools at this time. There will be a later stage for movepool submissions (level-up sets, egg moves, etc) once the required and disallowed moves have been determined via the accepted movesets.

Moveset Discussion Rules & Guidelines

There should be five kinds of posts in the thread:
  • Moveset Archetype Submissions
  • Moveset Submissions
  • Moveset Edits/Option Submissions
  • General Commentary
  • Section Leader/Topic Leader Announcements/Updates
This means that no moves can be suggested or commented on unless they are part of a full competitive moveset submission or suggested as a additional option for one or more previous movesets. Any recommendations to disallow certain moves should only be in reference to moves contained in previously posted movesets.

The general flow of this thread should go like this:
  1. People post moveset archetypes.
  2. People post moveset submissions for these archetypes in a prescribed format (see below)
  3. Other people suggest to add/remove moves or other options to previously posted movesets (see below)
  4. Other people propose edits to the descriptive information with previously posted movesets
  5. Other people comment on the competitive pros and cons of previously posted movesets, additions/removals, and proposed edits
  6. Continuously over the course of the thread, the movepool leader updates the first post in the thread with the "currently accepted" movesets and other information related to the status of the intelligent community consensus (see below)
By the end of this discussion thread, we should have the following outputs:
  • The top post in the thread (maintained by the Movepool Leader) will contain a list of all edited, approved movesets
  • The top post will list controversial movesets and/or optional moves that need to be voted on by the community
Prohibited Moves:
Legendary Signature Moves are banned from discussion unless one (or more) is specifically allowed by the combined consensus of the TL and the Movepool Leader. The following moves are considered Legendary Signatures:

Aeroblast
Astral Barrage
Behemoth Bash
Behemoth Blade
Blue Flare
Bolt Strike
Crush Grip
Core Enforcer
Dark Void
Doom Desire
Dragon Ascent
Dynamax Cannon
Eternabeam
Fleur Cannon
Freeze Shock
Fusion Bolt
Fusion Flare
Geomancy
Glacial Lance
Glaciate
Heart Swap
Hyperspace Fury
Hyperspace Hole
Ice Burn
Judgement
Jungle Healing
Land's Wrath
Light of Ruin
Lunar Dance
Luster Purge
Magma Storm
Mist Ball
Moongeist Beam
Oblivion Wing
Origin Pulse
Photon Geyser
Plasma Fists
Precipice Blades
Prismatic Laser
Psycho Boost
Psystrike
Relic Song
Roar of Time
Sacred Fire
Searing Shot
Secret Sword
Seed Flare
Shadow Force
Spacial Rend
Spectral Thief
Steam Eruption
Surging Strikes
Sunsteel Strike
Techno Blast
Thousand Arrows
Thousand Waves
V-Create
Wicked Blow


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Moveset Submissions

Movesets should be posted in the following format:

Moveset Submission

Name: Agility Sweeper
Move 1: Agility
Move 2: Thunderbolt
Move 3: Energy Ball
Move 4: Earth Power / Focus Blast
Ability: Sheer Force
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid / Modest
  • Agility doubles CAP X's speed, which allows it to sweep.
  • Because of CAP X's Electric typing, Thunderbolt can hit Water-types like Arghonaut and Toxapex very hard.
  • Energy Ball allows CAP X to break through common Ground-types which may look to switch into its Electric-type STAB, most notably Seismitoad and Hippowdon.
  • Earth Power lets CAP X hit Pokemon such as Excadrill, and Aegislash extremely hard, however, Focus Blast is also an option that allows CAP X to deal with Pokemon such as Equilibra and Ferrothorn if desired.
  • Life Orb's recoil is removed by Sheer Force and allows CAP X to hit even harder.
  • Timid is preferred as it allows CAP X to outpace Dragapult after it has used Agility, but Modest can be used for more breaking power, notably allowing CAP X to OHKO Toxapex.
Code:
[B]Moveset Submission[/B]

Name:
Move 1:
Move 2:
Move 3:
Move 4:
Ability: (optional)
Item: (optional)
EVs: (optional)
Nature: (optional)
[LIST]
[*]
[*]
[*]
[/LIST]
Please keep to the above format so the movepool leader can easily see which posts in the thread are proposing new moveset submissions, and can easily locate the information when updating the top post in the thread.

Ability, Item, EVs, and Nature are optional. All that is required are four moves, a name, and some descriptive information (in bullet form).

Any suggested moveset posted without any reasonable description will be deleted by the moderators. People should not spam movesets, post without checking the movesets already submitted, or post movesets without thinking them through.

Although we are not posting movesets in the full C&C analysis format, you should generally adhere to C&C standards where it makes sense. While there will not be excessively strict moderation on this, use common sense. Don't get too slash-happy with moves, no stupid names, use proper spelling and grammar, etc.

If you are unsure of the optimal ability, item, EVs, or nature -- you can leave it out and it can be edited in later over the course of the thread. By the end of the thread, every accepted moveset should be filled in completely. That doesn't mean we need to be 100% sure of every aspect of the moveset. It's fine if we go with our best guess and leave it to the playtest to optimize it.


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Moveset Edits/Option Submissions

Edits/options should be made by copying the most recent version of the moveset and description into an unattributed quote tags ([ QUOTE][ /QUOTE]). Then make any edits, additions, or replacements in bold text, removals should be in strike-through text. The most recent copy should taken from the top post or from the original submission post, depending on whichever one is most current.

Posters can and should comment on the reasoning and background for any proposed edits outside of Quote tags. Simple wording or spelling corrections do not need any explanation or commentary.

Additional move proposals must be made in the context of one or more movesets. The user cannot simply post "I suggest we add Taunt as an option to all non-choiced movesets", for example.


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Movepool Leader/Topic Leader Posts

The first post under the OP is reserved by the Movepool Leader, and will serve as the reference post for the current status of the discussion.

When the Movepool Leader determines that a moveset, option, or edit is accepted by intelligent community consensus, they will add/update a list of "Approved Movesets" in the first post. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add every submission to the first post automatically, simply because it was posted in the thread. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add a submission to the first post if it was not actively accepted by intelligent community consensus. "Lack of any response" is not the same as "acceptance". As with all CAP discussion threads, the leader should always use their best judgement.

If a proposal has received significant intelligent feedback (positive or negative), but it has not yet reached consensus, the Movepool leader should add it to an "Under Consideration" list in the first post. If the thread ends with controversial items that can't reach consensus, they will go to a community poll. In most cases, the "Under Consideration" list should be comprised of full movesets or additional option proposals. Edits to the description of most movesets, probably will not require extensive discussion or polling.

As the Movepool Leader makes updates to the first post, they should also post announcements in the thread indicating what they have added or updated. This will allow active discussion participants to easily track the progress of the thread. The Topic Leader should also post regular feedback in the thread, like every other competitive discussion.

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Name: Agility Sweeper
Move 1: Agility
Move 2: Thunderbolt
Move 3: Ice Beam
Move 4: Earth Power / Energy Ball
Ability: Sheer Force
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Modest / Timid
  • Agility doubles CAP X's speed, which allows it to sweep.
  • Because of CAP X's Electric typing, Thunderbolt can hit Water-types like Arghonaut very hard.
  • Ice Beam complements Thunderbolt very well, allowing it to hit Ground-types like Garchomp.
  • Earth Power lets CAP X hit Heatran and Mega Crucibelle very hard, while Energy Ball lets it hit Gastrodon and Mega Swampert harder.
  • Sheer Force powers up CAP X's main moves.
  • Life Orb's recoil is removed by Sheer Force and allows CAP X to hit even harder.
  • Modest is preferred for more power, but Timid can be used to outspeed Gyarados and Heatran before boosting.
 

Rabia

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Hi guys, back to moves discussion!

So, a quick refresher on our previously decided-on defining moves:

Required Moves: Diamond Storm, Earthquake
Optional Moves: One of (Milk Drink/Soft-Boiled/Recover/Slack Off), Pain Split, Grass-type coverage, special Fire-type coverage, Taunt, Thunder Wave, one of (Swords Dance/Dragon Dance/Shift Gear), Rapid Spin

Zetalz, the winning stats submitter, took the following into account: Swords Dance, Power Whip, 50% Recovery, Pain Split, Taunt

Of course, we can diverge from what Zetalz did if we choose to.

Since we've had both the stats voting and the secondary ability voting between when we did our defining moves list and now, I want to open a brief 24-hour discussion on our defining moves. Perhaps some of these moves are viewed less---or more---favorably with stats and Serene Grace now in the equation.

1) Realistically, what is the draw to using Pain Split over 50% recovery with this stat spread? Does it improve (a) certain matchup(s)? Is it just inferior overall? Consider Toxapex, for example, as another Pokemon with access to both Pain Split and Recover.

2) Special Fire-type coverage is currently all-encompassing, as is Grass-type coverage. Despite our stats submitter only really taking Power Whip into account, are there any Grass-type moves or special Fire-type moves you could see being problematic as a result of Serene Grace? Is special Fire-type coverage even practical at this point?

3) Our stats spread is fairly fast, clocking in at base 90 Speed. Consider our boosting options: is one or both of Dragon Dance/Shift Gear seeming any stronger now compared to when we didn't have stats decided on?

4) Are there any previously banned coverage types that would be fine now? Which ones, if any, and why?

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As mentioned, 24 hours for this stage.
 

Rabia

is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
GP Co-Leader
Reserving this post : D

Diamond Storm, Earthquake, Pain Split, Leech Seed, Power Whip, Horn Leech, Taunt, Thunder Wave, Swords Dance, Rapid Spin, Stealth Rock, Heal Bell, Body Press, Sucker Punch, Body Slam, Rock Slide, Poison Jab


Ice-type coverage, Electric-type coverage, Knock Off, Toxic, Shell Smash, Belly Drum, Dragon Dance, Shift Gear, 50% recovery moves, Poison Fang, Force Palm


Name: Swords Dance Sweeper
Move 1: Earthquake
Move 2: Diamond Storm
Move 3: Power Whip / Substitute
Move 4: Swords Dance
Ability: Water Absorb
Item: Leftovers / Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Moveset Submission
Name: Taunt Stallbreaker
Move 1: Earthquake
Move 2: Diamond Storm
Move 3: Taunt
Move 4: Pain Split
Ability: Water Absorb
Item: Leftovers / Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant

Essentially, this set destroys bulky teams that rely on passively checking CAP 31. The EVs with Adamant allow CAP 31 to outpace Timid Heatran and 2HKO Toxapex with Earthquake. Taunt and Pain Split actually make Corviknight not as solid into this as it is into other sets, particularly if rocks are up.
Moveset Submission

Name: Geomancy 2x2: Diamond Is Unbreakable
Move 1: Earthquake
Move 2: Diamond Storm
Move 3: Swords Dance
Move 4: Rapid Spin
Ability: Water Absorb / Serene Grace
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 Attack / 4 Defense / 252 Speed
Nature: Adamant
  • Maximum Attack investment and solid coverage in EQ + DStorm gives this set plenty of breaking and setup opportunities, especially if we manage to acquire a +2 Defense boost.
  • Swords Dance allows it to apply heavy pressure onto the opponent by boosting our attack versus passive mons or as the opponent switches to a check that cannot OHKO us.
  • Rapid Spin doubles as team support by removing hazards on our side of the field, while also letting 31 outspeed the entire unboosted metagame after the Speed boost.
  • 252 Speed is enough to outpace max Speed Heatran.
  • Leftovers is a general-purpose item meant to aid our inherent defensive qualities while also minimizing any chip we take over the course of a game.
  • Either of Water Absorb or Serene Grace works here, the former providing tons of defensive value and switch-in/setup opportunity, and the latter making Diamond Storm near-guaranteed to boost our Defense, letting us play aggressively into Physical Attackers and turn them into setup fodder.

I have seen this set (or some alteration of it) used a fair bit on the test server and it is very powerful if left unchecked. Becomes hard to Revenge Kill at +2 Defense and +1 Speed while being a ferocious attacker thanks to high BP moves and excellent coverage. Can easily accrue more SD boosts if given the chance, making it harder to stop.

I have never watched JoJo the name just sounded funny and is a meme Give me Likes.
Moveset Submission
Name: Fast Bulky Booster
Move 1: Leech Seed / Pain Split
Move 2: Diamond Storm
Move 3: Swords Dance
Move 4: High Horsepower / Earthquake
Ability: Water Absorb
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 200 HP / 56 Attack / 252 Speed
Nature: Adamant

56 Adamant hits the EV bump for 330 Attack, which will threaten to 2HKO all Ferrothorn at +2 even with Leftovers (full physdef ferro is like 54% chance.) Max Speed for outspeeding Timid Heatran to pop balloon with Diamond Storm. Rest dumped in HP. Final moveslot is more suited for recovery for this set, either Pain Split or Leech Seed, if that gets approved.
Most of the good sets have been posted, therefore it is now time to post some grade A(V) cringe. Please utilize caution when viewing the following submission.

Moveset Submission
Name: Assault Vest
Move 1: Earthquake
Move 2: Diamond Storm
Move 3: Horn Leech / Power Whip
Move 4: Rapid Spin / Body Press / Sucker Punch
Ability: Water Absorb
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpDef / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant / Jolly

Behold, bad AV Melmetal. In all seriousness, this set is incredibly niche but has just enough useful applications that I think it'd be somewhat usable on specific team structures. While capable of eating up a lot of the strong special attackers in the tier, this set specifically aims to be an offensive sponge than can switch into Stratagem as it beams and comfortably pressure it out, something that sdsplit can't do super reliably (you need to be at near full for split to get you out of range of the second fire blast but it doesn't put gem in range of dstorm either).

Horn Leech is the funny tech option for this set, a sort of mid-ground option bridging Pain Split/Power Whip. A more accurate Grass move to bonk Strata and Fini that also maintains some longevity is nice to have, especially given the tendency of Fini to wear 31 down over time. Power Whip is still a good option nonetheless just to have that guaranteed big damage into Fini or Bro since you lack set-up pressure. Last slot is pretty malleable, Spin offers some measure of team support if you're lacking in removal though lack the sweeping potential of SD. Body Press is an admittedly low impact move but does give 31 a way to not instantly lose to the likes of Libra or Ferro (to an extent) if you don't need other utility particularly bad. Sucker Punch is an option to keep 31 competitive vs fast breakers that it can't as easily out tank like Pult or Blace. Both of these are not necessary however if they end up not being approved as spin is adequate enough for a 4th slot.

Might add funny calcs later
Most of the good sets have been posted, therefore it is now time to post some grace A cringe. Please utilize caution when viewing the following submission.

Moveset Submission
Name: Grace Kelly
Move 1: Earthquake
Move 2: Diamond Storm
Move 3: Body Slam / Thunder Wave
Move 4: Rock Slide / Pain Split
Ability: Serene Grace
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Special Defense / 88 Speed
Nature: Careful

I think this is about as close as we will get to a full Serene Grace abuser. Rock Slide could really be any flinching move, but a non-contact one makes the most sense to me to avoid Rocky Helmet chip. It also somewhat preserves the PP of Diamond Storm against dumb shit like Corviknight. Other contenders include Iron Head and Zing Zap imo. 88 Speed is enough to outpace Scarf Lele after paralysis. This set is really fucking tanky.
Moveset Submission

Name: Serene Grace SD
Move 1: Earthquake
Move 2: Diamond Storm
Move 3: Swords Dance
Move 4: Taunt/Poison Jab/Force Palm
Ability: Serene Grace
Item: Leftovers/Rawst Berry
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpDef / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Serene Grace 31 is a powerful mid/lategame win condition that is more difficult to revenge kill on the physical side. Swords Dance+Taunt+ Diamond Storm creates a much more favourable matchup against Buzzwole. Diamond Storm followed up by Taunt effectively shuts down Toxic Buzzwole. +2 Earthquake, 2HKOs Slowbro, and +2 Diamond Storm backed by Taunt shuts down Corviknight. Poison Jab can be used to lure strong Grass types like Rillaboom and Tapu Bulu. Force Palm wasn't discussed prior, but it's another potential coverage option beyond Poison Jab that can spread Paralysis and offer better coverage than Body Slam.
Moveset Submission

Name: Bulky Hazard Control
Move 1: Earthquake
Move 2: Diamond Storm
Move 3: Pain Split / Horn Leech
Move 4: Rapid Spin / Stealth Rock
Ability: Water Absorb / Serene Grace
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Impish

If you're tired of putting defensive Lando on all of your teams, bulky hazard control CAP 31 to the rescue. This set is probably too passive to be as viable as Swords Dance sets, but I think after that and Stallbreaker this is probably the next best thing. I went for a physically defensive set but you could also probably go for specially defensive, though even if you go full specially defensive you're not taking a Balloon Heatran Eruption very well. So of course, this set has EVs that allow it to outspeed Heatran, with the rest being poured into physical bulk. Of course, the EVs could probably be changed around. Over other Ground spinners in the tier it has a Scald immunity as opposed to a weakness and handles Zeraora better, over other Ground rockers it still has that Scald immunity and also recovery options in Pain Split and Horn Leech, which aren't great, but are more than what Lando has at least.
Moveset Submission
Name: SpDef Sponge
Move 1: Earthquake
Move 2: Diamond Storm
Move 3: Stealth Rock / Pain Split
Move 4: Taunt / Pain Split / Rapid Spin
Ability: Water Absorb
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 92 HP / 104 Atk / 160 SpDef / 152 Speed
Nature: Jolly

This set aims to be an annoyingly fat rocks setter that can comfortably put rocks up and keep them up vs the various removers in the tier not named Libra and just be an annoying special sponge. EVs outrun Timid Heatran, HP hits 304 (lefties number) while still keeping it low enough for good split healing (same as max hp rotom), SpDef turns Timid Magma Storm into a 3HKO after factoring in rocks, lefties and trapping (also turns offensive zap cane into a 3hko). Rest thrown into attack. Taunt is the preferred 4th move with Rocks, but Split is nice to lean more into a sort of bulky pivot role. Spin is also usable if extra removal is needed but slots are tight as is and it's low on the priorities list.
 
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2) Special Fire-type coverage is currently all-encompassing, as is Grass-type coverage. Despite our stats submitter only really taking Power Whip into account, are there any Grass-type moves or special Fire-type moves you could see being problematic as a result of Serene Grace? Is special Fire-type coverage even practical at this point?
Other than Needle Arm, which is unusable in Gen 8, Serene Grace has no impact on any physical Grass-type moves.

Many special Fire-type moves would benefit from Serene Grace, but typically only by increasing burn chance from 10% to 20%. The two exceptions are Fiery Dance (chance of raising special attack goes from 50% to 100%) and Lava Plume (chance of burn goes from 30% to 60%).

At this point, special Fire-type coverage would probably only help us against Ferrothorn:
0 SpA Quagsire Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 348-416 (98.8 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Quagsire Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 160-192 (45.4 - 54.5%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Even with special Fire-type coverage, we can't 2HKO specially defensive Ferrothorn:
0 SpA Quagsire Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 260-308 (73.8 - 87.5%) -- not a KO
0 SpA Quagsire Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 120-144 (34 - 40.9%) -- 94.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Quagsire Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 148-176 (42 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Against Equilibra, special Fire-type coverage is not as good as physical Grass-type coverage:
0 SpA Quagsire Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Equilibra: 90-108 (22 - 26.4%) -- 13.6% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Weavile Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Equilibra: 120-142 (29.4 - 34.8%) -- 10.4% chance to 3HKO
 

Zetalz

Expect nothing, deliver less
is a Pre-Contributor
1) Realistically, what is the draw to using Pain Split over 50% recovery with this stat spread? Does it improve (a) certain matchup(s)? Is it just inferior overall? Consider Toxapex, for example, as another Pokemon with access to both Pain Split and Recover.
This is a good question, I think there is a dilemma with 31 regarding it's recovery after playing around with it on the test server (grain of salt and all that). On paper I can't in good conscience say Pain Split is any better than 50%, but I do believe 50% recovery may be a little too much for our purposes with 31 and also not terribly necessary. Pain Split is still a serviceable option in the event of 50% recovery being axed, and doesn't complicate the way you play around it too much.

2) Special Fire-type coverage is currently all-encompassing, as is Grass-type coverage. Despite our stats submitter only really taking Power Whip into account, are there any Grass-type moves or special Fire-type moves you could see being problematic as a result of Serene Grace? Is special Fire-type coverage even practical at this point?
Realistically Grass has no options that are Serene Grace abusable. Needle Arm is snapped iirc (and also bad) and Seed Flare missed it's shot during CA lol. As I said in my stab sub I think Fire coverage has to remain off the table completely for this spread, and I feel more staunchly on this after playing on the test server. Kartana, Buzzwole and Ferrothorn were pretty important checks to keep SD 31 in line (boosted or not) and having a lure option to just invalidate them would not be ideal. Lava Plume is the especially bad offender here as though it doesn't outright kill buzzer or ferro, fishing for a burn on them is equally frustrating.

3) Our stats spread is fairly fast, clocking in at base 90 Speed. Consider our boosting options: is one or both of Dragon Dance/Shift Gear seeming any stronger now compared to when we didn't have stats decided on?
These should remain off the table. 31 is exceptionally bulky on the special side which gives it plenty of opportunity to set-up DD/SG, on top of being difficult to revenge on either side after a dstorm boost. The best counterplay to DD 31 with this spread is the likes of toxic lando or argh which can both be messed with by 4th move options like power whip or substitute. It's worth noting SD Rapid Spin felt a little obscene in the few test games we had with it (grain of salt), I can't see DD or SG feeling any better.

4) Are there any previously banned coverage types that would be fine now? Which ones, if any, and why?
Ice is still a no-go, 31 would drop dstorm in a heartbeat to run Beamquake coverage just to hit lando and wouldn't even mind having a harder match-up into things like Buzzwole. Idr if Electric was banned or not but it's probably fine? Maybe? Electrics ever present issue of not having a good physical move certainly doesn't do it any favors and it doesn't immediately overwrite dstorm like ice does. The only concern I see with Electric is the likes of Zing Zap being a decent Serene Grace target, but flinching is never fun to play around and it's perfectly valid imo to have Dstorm be the only grace move we have. Water is probably best to shy away from, compressing all of Lando/Libra/Heatran into a single coverage slot might be a little much for some teams to handle, even with a weaker Sgrace boosted move like Razor Shell (quz knows).
 

ausma

imperfection is beautiful
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1) Realistically, what is the draw to using Pain Split over 50% recovery with this stat spread? Does it improve (a) certain matchup(s)? Is it just inferior overall? Consider Toxapex, for example, as another Pokemon with access to both Pain Split and Recover.
I think it's important to remember Pain Split is pretty much, in most cases, a worse version of 50% recovery. However, Pain Split has one absolutely huge draw over 50%, being that it as a healing option, is not passive. The main matchups of relevance are Equilibra and Corviknight, giving us an option to actually chunk the former and an option that forces the latter to Roost. The Corviknight matchup is especially relevant for defensive sets that may not want to waste valuable Diamond Storm PP to damage it and do the exact same thing, especially with Pressure. I also think Pain Split's overall lower reliability is of note as this means it's a super easy go-to in the case that 50% recovery is too powerful (which... given the test games, its bulk is far too asinine to make it feel as comfy of an option), and it has a very practical and reliable interaction with one of our best answers while not necessarily tilting it in our favor. Given all the above and CAP 31's bulk in action making it already a really annoying Pokemon to break past even without recovery, I would personally favor Pain Split as our main recovery option here.

2) Special Fire-type coverage is currently all-encompassing, as is Grass-type coverage. Despite our stats submitter only really taking Power Whip into account, are there any Grass-type moves or special Fire-type moves you could see being problematic as a result of Serene Grace? Is special Fire-type coverage even practical at this point?
The main coverage move of note is Lava Plume, a Fire-type move that packs a very powerful burn chance in tandem with Serene Grace. It seems fine on paper but in execution I don't think it's really pro-concept with CAP 31. Our mediocre Special Attack means damage is greatly limited as a primary draw, but a high burn chance in tandem with that is where value is really extracted, especially with Burn’s residual damage to somewhat cut into the longevity of Corviknight and Equilibra in spite of their resilience to Lava Plume's damage. I could see that Burn chance alone making it a super consistent and strong option on defensive Serene Grace variants, but I do worry the odds make it a fairly intense and spammable option in most cases, especially given the type's synergy with CAP 31 as a whole (the few Lava Plume switch-ins in the game crumble to Ground-type STAB, save for Hydreigon and the Latis). Most importantly, though, securing a Burn could lead to some serious diminishing returns with Diamond Storm, especially with how easy Lava Plume could be to use as a complementary option to CAP 31's Ground-type STAB.

From a purely offensive standpoint, special Fire-type coverage is not really a good option anymore imo. Our spread, simply, does not have the necessary firepower. We need a lot of base Special Attack to really secure any meaningful chip damage against Corviknight to and force a Roost, otherwise you will need to draw from your investment pool to do so making it a slot that actually comes with opportunity costs for investment on defensive sets wanting to use it into Corviknight and Equilibra. Because of that, its main targets are now mostly reduced to Buzzwole and Ferrothorn, which are fine enough to focus on, I suppose? I just can't say I support it as much considering that Fire-type coverage with this given spread would really have to be designed around to find worthwhile value over its other utility options, which is a problem as we want such options to flow seamlessly with its kit and not draw away from CAP 31's resources, and it further takes away from a pool of vital, practical checks.

All Grass-type moves either have 100% drop rates or are useless for CAP 31, with Seed Flare being the only exception yet sadly a forbidden fruit, so Power Whip remains the best option regardless of ability.

3) Our stats spread is fairly fast, clocking in at base 90 Speed. Consider our boosting options: is one or both of Dragon Dance/Shift Gear seeming any stronger now compared to when we didn't have stats decided on?
Base 90 Speed is definitely already a pretty big bonus for these boosting moves, which is fine by itself, but I would argue what really breaks them here is our Speed in tandem with our bulk. Zetalz wisely mentioned how good Rapid Spin was in boosting CAP 31's speed on dedicated setup variants, which our bulk let us afford to run and use independently. Yet, despite how strong of an option it was, that required its own moveslot. Dragon Dance and Shift Gear both mesh offensive and speed boosting in one turn and in one slot, which could be a serious problem as that reopens the possibility of a 4th moveslot over Rapid Spin, and would easily be granted to longevity or Substitute on such variants. This could make it really hard to stop as its bulk leverages it to boost repeatedly. With that in mind, I would shy away from these as options.

4) Are there any previously banned coverage types that would be fine now? Which ones, if any, and why?
I think Ice-type is a definite no-go, but on the contrary, I am intrigued by the potential of Electric-type moves, and the reason that is is because of Spark, Discharge, and Thunder in the context of defensive sets. All of these seem very strange and not worthwhile on paper, but with Serene Grace now in the equation, their odds of paralysis are doubled, which is a status we've already established has good value with CAP 31, and can shoot for paralysis against many of CAP 31's existing checks that are considerably more annoying for dedicated defensive variants. However, what I find most intriguing about these options is that they can directly apply damage to Corviknight and further exploit Slowbro with both paralysis and added damage, especially with Thunder's base power. The latter two being Special coverage means Diamond Storm remains the overall stronger option from an offensive standpoint, and while Spark is physical, its poor yet serviceable BP keeps it oriented on Physical offense, yet tempered in damage output. These traits limit the potential danger in providing CAP 31 with Electric-coverage and instead emphasizes its strengths in a similar vein to the Fire-type. I do wonder if these options would really see much use since we have a spread that doesn't quite reap value from Discharge and Thunder's damage output, and Spark is really weak, but that in tandem with a very elite secondary effect are why I bring them up. I think if we want to explore Electric-coverage, Serene Grace does provide some very interesting leverage for these moves as pseudo-utility options that improve defensive CAP 31's experience playing into Corviknight and takes advantage of Slowbro regardless of the ability with simultaneous chip damage and strong paralysis odds, the latter being practical into a wealth of CAP 31's switch-ins.

Thunder > Spark > Discharge in terms of average damage output

vs. Slowbro

0 SpA CAP 31 Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 134-158 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (not a ton, but it does outdamage Regenerator)
0- SpA CAP 31 Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 120-142 (30.4 - 36%) -- 44.9% chance to 3HKO (44.9% chance to outdamage Regenerator)

0- SpA CAP 31 Discharge vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 88-104 (22.3 - 26.3%) -- 10.1% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA CAP 31 Discharge vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 98-116 (24.8 - 29.4%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO

252 Atk CAP 31 Spark vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 90-108 (22.8 - 27.4%) -- 59.4% chance to 4HKO

vs. Corviknight

0 SpA CAP 31 Thunder vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 114-136 (28.5 - 34%) -- 98.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- SpA CAP 31 Thunder vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 104-124 (26 - 31%) -- 9.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA CAP 31 Discharge vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 84-100 (21 - 25%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- SpA CAP 31 Discharge vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 76-90 (19 - 22.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk CAP 31 Spark vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 102-120 (25.5 - 30%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Zing Zap is certainly be an option and would maybe be fine, but I don't really see it being particularly diverse or brilliant, as it really just adds an annoying amount of RNG to the equation against Corviknight instead of interacting with it or really anything else in an interesting or meaningful way. It's probably not strong enough in a vacuum to be worth omitting necessarily but it just seems annoying and trivial instead of bringing anything interesting to the table.

I think Fighting-type coverage, specifically Body Press with Serene Grace to amp Diamond Storm's reliability in boosting defense, is not a bad thing to consider as it does certainly have its place, highlighting key off-matchups (strengthening them with... Diamond Storm! very cool and pro-concept imo) while respecting its existing strengths and weaknesses for the most part. I'm unsure if it's something we'd feel comfortable further exploring, but I would argue it should be fine to discuss this type again!
 
1) Realistically, what is the draw to using Pain Split over 50% recovery with this stat spread? Does it improve (a) certain matchup(s)? Is it just inferior overall? Consider Toxapex, for example, as another Pokemon with access to both Pain Split and Recover.

As Ausma kinda said, Pain Split is only more useful than Recover against Pokemon that 1) lack healing 2) have most of their health, and 3) takemore damage than 31's offensive moves. The move becomes less situational when paired with Taunt, but it's also extremely easy to punish with a switch to a Pokemon with low health.

2) Special Fire-type coverage is currently all-encompassing, as is Grass-type coverage. Despite our stats submitter only really taking Power Whip into account, are there any Grass-type moves or special Fire-type moves you could see being problematic as a result of Serene Grace? Is special Fire-type coverage even practical at this point?

I've previously iterated my belief that CAP31's Fire-type coverage should be intentionally made to ONLY beat Kartana. However, this isn't as important when Kartana outspeeds 31. Unless we're prepared to give this thing Ember as a coverage option, it's likely best we avoid it altogether. As for Grass coverage, the most problematic move with Serene Grace is Leaf Tornado, which reduces accuracy 100% of the time.

3) Our stats spread is fairly fast, clocking in at base 90 Speed. Consider our boosting options: is one or both of Dragon Dance/Shift Gear seeming any stronger now compared to when we didn't have stats decided on?

Probably not. DD/SG are extremely powerful moves in their own right, but when paired with Diamond Storm they become something else entirely, almost like a 1.5 turn pseudo-Geomancy. It doesn't sound like much until you remember that you're still attacking with Diamond Storm the turn after you set up.

4) Are there any previously banned coverage types that would be fine now? Which ones, if any, and why?

I think the big ones we should avoid were already stated: Fire, Ice, potentially Water. Electric is interesting, but I'm afraid it will undermine Corviknight's capacity to check 31. The most interesting coverage option IMO is Poison, which adds a whole 116 new Pokemon from the supereffective lists. With Serene Grace, Poison Fang is the logical choice for coverage, as is Sludge Bomb. However, Poison Fang is functionally transformed by Serene Grace, much like Diamond Storm, basically turning into a Toxic that cannot be shut down by Taunt nor used effectively by Water Absorb 31.
 
2) Grass doesn't really have anything that it can really abuse Serene Grace with. All of the physical grass moves with secondary effects already have a 100% chance to occur, and in terms of special moves, our Special Attack is too low to really be worth considering using any of these moves in the first place. So I can't really see grass moves being problematic with Serene Grace, seeing as how they can't really abuse Serene Grace all that much to begin with. As for Special Fire coverage, I'm against it as a whole. Ferrothorn and to a lesser extent Kartana have demonstrated themselves to be very important checks to CAP31 during testing, and thanks to Kartana's abysmal special bulk, even negative nature Lava Plume is enough to OHKO it. Even outside of looking at it through just the match-up against Kartana, I feel like Lava Plume does a bit too much damage to Ferrothorn for me to really be okay with allowing it, and having Serene Grace on top of that for extra burn chances really doesn't help with these worries at all.

3) Dragon Dance and Shift Gear should be off the table, no questions asked. We are simply just too fast and strong out of the gate for these to be okay in really any capacity. Rapid Spin I think is more up to debate, as it pretty much forces us to forgo either Swords Dance or coverage given that we already have a pretty big case of 4MSS. That being said, I'm still not entirely sure if I would be comfortable with allowing it at this point, as having the capacity to get was is essentially a physical geomancy on a mon with already pretty high stats is still incredibly scary, and I'm really not sure if the issue of 4MSS would be enough to balance it out.
 
2) Grass has no interactions with SGrace, end of story. Special Fire coverage should be banned imo, because while Kart isn’t the sturdiest check to us, being able to dent Ferro and Corv in a single moveslot while OHKOing Kart seems like a bad idea. Lava Plume is particularly overkill with SGrace, given its 60% burn chance. No thanks. Also fsr Physical Fire isn’t banned atm so basically ban Fire coverage altogether.

3) DDance and SGear are just too much move compression in one slot. I think Rapid Spin is alright given how you have to give up that extra moveslot but that’s a discussion to have. Ban Dragon Dance and Shift Gear.

4) Given our stats, I think that Special Electric coverage should be fine enough to allow for discussion onpotential SGrace sets, since otherwise the moves aren’t radically cracking the likes of Corviknight open. I’m a bit wearier on Physical Electric moves, including the likes of Spark, given how it does this:

+2 252 Atk CAP31 Spark vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 202-238 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It’s not as terrifying as the likes of Fire-type coverage against our checks, but I’m still a bit hesitant to sign onto allowing it.

Ice is still a hell no btw lmao
 

Zetalz

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Just want to quickly say I think Electric coverage is being vastly overestimated in regards to beating things like Corv. I will be frank, Corviknight is not a solid check to 31 in it's current state even without Electric coverage, and pushing either for or against it based on it's merits into it isn't the right way to go about it. Corv is incredibly passive into 31 but more important pretty rare in CAP nowadays, and the same applies to Libra. I've noticed there seems to be an odd amount of pushing for both of these to be be-all end-all checks/counters to 31, but we need to keep in mind what 31's realistic checks are going to be, things like Kart, Ferro, Buzzwole and Lando (and other 31) are far more important to consider when delegating out things like coverage.
 

ausma

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Just want to quickly say I think Electric coverage is being vastly overestimated in regards to beating things like Corv. I will be frank, Corviknight is not a solid check to 31 in it's current state even without Electric coverage, and pushing either for or against it based on it's merits into it isn't the right way to go about it. Corv is incredibly passive into 31 but more important pretty rare in CAP nowadays, and the same applies to Libra. I've noticed there seems to be an odd amount of pushing for both of these to be be-all end-all checks/counters to 31, but we need to keep in mind what 31's realistic checks are going to be, things like Kart, Ferro, Buzzwole and Lando (and other 31) are far more important to consider when delegating out things like coverage.
For the record, I do pretty much entirely agree with you. I think if we're looking at this from a purely offensive perspective, there is no real reason to explore further coverage as CAP 31 has already proven to be a massive threat with Swords Dance allowing it to cleave past its normal checks. Corviknight, which checks defensive spreads and is a Pokemon SD variants easily beat, is helpless to return the pressure. In this regard Electric-coverage is not really worth exploring, especially as by itself it's fairly useless going into strong checks like Buzzwole, Ferrothorn, Kartana, and other Ground-types, and all it does is add unconducive white noise.

However, to be clear, I proposed Electric-type coverage as a complement to defensive sets as opposed to offensive sets. As good a focus as offensive boosting is for CAP 31, I think its unique defensive profile, longevity, and massive bulk does provide some noteworthy merits of importance, especially given how CAP 31's defensive profile enables it to simultaneously check Pokemon like Zeraora, Heatran, and Urshifu-R. While setup certainly helps enable it from a winning perspective, there are going to be a lot of teams that on average benefit more from its defensive profile being highlighted in the builder. Because of this, I think there's a compelling argument for teams to turn to defensive variants in spite of SD's generally great winning power, and exploring some avenues to provide natural moveslot compression that keeps up pressure yet packs some natural utility is a worthwhile thing to consider. This is where I think Electric-coverage comes to play.

Defensive sets that lack Swords Dance lack that natural ability to cleave past Pokemon it otherwise could with boosting, which does, undoubtedly, include Corviknight regardless of its downward trending usage, meaning these types of Pokemon wholly block it from doing much of anything. Electric-type coverage from a purely offensive perspective is fine though nowhere near worth emphasizing as a primary coverage type; however, I think its few benefits, which does include forcing Corviknight to Roost (important if we want defensive variants to have any shot at taking advantage of it without burning Diamond Storm's precious PP) and pressuring Slowbro's Regenerator, are given value because of the proposed moves packing a very legitimate paralysis odds even without Serene Grace. It's those paralysis odds that can attain value into Ferrothorn and co. in tandem with the ability to force recovery from specific Pokemon that stonewall defensive variants that really make these specific options worth considering, even if they're not going to be the most popular of options.

In short, specialized Electric-type coverage provides defensive variants with options that can universally apply pressure to CAP 31's natural checks thanks to their solid paralysis odds even without Serene Grace without invalidating them as checks. However, comparatively to Thunder Wave, its particular offensive typing is able to turn defensive CAP 31's stonewall matchups like Corviknight into a progress-making opportunity in tandem with paralysis odds by more reliably forcing recovery out of them thanks to just barely serviceable damage output.
 

Rabia

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Sorry for the delayed response; had a very busy day :x A few conclusions I'm drawing from discussion:

Dragon Dance and Shift Gear are being moved to the banned list. The combination of really good bulk and natural Speed makes these options too good, and the fact Rapid Spin + Swords Dance even is being viewed as problematic is worrying enough. I'm going to lean towards saying Rapid Spin is fine for now, though.

50% recovery is being banned as well. Pain Split is good enough on its own, and 50% eclipses it entirely and is arguably too much. Better to play it safe here and I think given how strapped for moveslots we are, this may not be as impactful a change as we think it to be.

I'm going to keep special Fire-type coverage around as an option. People view Lava Plume as at-worst an annoyingly fishy way to cripple answers and arguably anti-concept? But, I personally can't view a world where we can justify it too well given how low our special firepower is. Maybe Overheat on Swords Dance sets will prove to be too much, but I'd rather get more games showcasing that than act rashly.

I'm also going to keep Ice- and Electric-type coverage off the table. I think adding too many lure options is a potential problem worth avoiding.

---

I now want us to talk archetypes. We already pretty clearly can fulfill the niche of Swords Dance sweeper as established by Zetalz's stats post.

1) What other archetypes could we fill with given our defining moves?
2) Our utility movepool right now is: Thunder Wave, Taunt, and Rapid Spin. Are there other utility options worth considering? Or would any other option be generally not worth running?

43 hours deadline (because I want these stages to conclude at around 12 my time), and then we'll move into submitting movesets.
 

Zetalz

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1) What other archetypes could we fill with given our defining moves?
2) Our utility movepool right now is: Thunder Wave, Taunt, and Rapid Spin. Are there other utility options worth considering? Or would any other option be generally not worth running?
1) Hazard Setter I believe is the stand-out secondary role for 31 as it has a naturally good match-up into most common defoggers and can consistently keep rocks up with Taunt and Diamond Storm pressure. Having another solid rocker in the tier is also nice as the current roster of viable rockers can feel a bit restrictive at times. Spikes are a bit less impressive on 31 as you don't really have as many free turns as other spikers like lotl to keep the spikes pressure up a lot of the time.

2) There's a fair variety of other utility options out there but a lot of them do run into the issue of simply not be worth in a majority of scenarios. 31's natural moveslot restriction means you only get to pick up to 2 utility options so they need to both be valuable and ideally contribute to a shared gameplan. Nonetheless let me rattle off a few moves off the top of my head that could be cool:

-Trick is an interesting option that enables a speed control set ala Scarf Fini that gives 31 another avenue to cripple mons that would be a hassle to handle even with Diamond Storm like Venom, and gives it a funny way to counter back against said Scarf Fini. You can def make the argument that having a second Scarf Fini-esque mon in the meta would be extra annoying to deal with though.
-Clear Smog is generally not going to be super useful imo due to the lack of 50% recovery, but does offer a unique way of dealing with annoying wincon mons like Venom, Pyroak and CM Fini and doesn't hamper your own boosts like Haze would, also funny into the mirror match.
-Refresh/Heal Bell could be interesting, mostly they would operate as a selfish form of status protection and 31 doesn't exactly lend itself well to a Cleric role but having some form of combating Toxic from faster mons could be useful. Can definitely see the argument of keeping Toxic as viable counterplay to 31 as possible though. EDIT: forgor refresh was snapped
-Poison Jab is probably my favorite form of offensive utility available right now. A viable second move for Serene Grace builds (that can also more easily give away Serene Grace since I know that's a concern) and also spreading standard poison is a cool method of whittling down would be answers over the course of the game that doesn't eat into precious Diamond Storm PP. Also I will say I think while Jab is a safe include something Poison Fang probably isn't, Toxic is banned so Toxic-on-legs would best be avoided.
-Will-o-Wisp is an option to really lean into the 'fuck all physical attackers' angle but honestly I feel like that is covered well enough already through Diamond Storm and I don't much care for compounding it further.
 
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1) What other archetypes could we fill with given our defining moves?

Stallbreaker. Taunt, Pain Split and Diamond Storm help 31 maintain pressure on many physical walls not named Equilibra or Quagsire.


2) Our utility movepool right now is: Thunder Wave, Taunt, and Rapid Spin. Are there other utility options worth considering? Or would any other option be generally not worth running?

Yes. As I've mentioned previously, Poison Fang with Serene Grace functions as a more powerful version of Toxic that does chip damage and prevents Clefable from trying to take advantage of Toxic. However, it doesn't work consistently without Serene Grace. It's an option that makes Serene Grace viable without compromising most of 31's matchups. Diamond Storm and Poison Fang have great synergy together as well, taking advantage of 31's desire to stay on the field. It is also unlikely to overshadow Diamond Storm for this reason. Seeing as plenty of users think Serene Grace isn't going to overshadow Water Absorb and lacks the space for other offensive options, i don't think people will find it to be too much.


-Poison Jab is probably my favorite form of offensive utility available right now. A viable second move for Serene Grace builds (that can also more easily give away Serene Grace since I know that's a concern) and also spreading standard poison is a cool method of whittling down would be answers over the course of the game that doesn't eat into precious Diamond Storm PP. Also I will say I think while Jab is a safe include something Poison Fang probably isn't, Toxic is banned so Toxic-on-legs would best be avoided.
Poison Fang doesn't act like Toxic though, it's bad on WA sets because of its inconsistency and weak damage output if it doesn't inflict status. Poison Fang is specific to Serene Grace and helps carve a niche for Serene Grace sets. Stallbreaker 31 already has 4MSS and will struggle finding use for it alongside Taunt, STAB, DS, and PS. It's just one more option that makes Serene Grace better in the Buzzwole matchup and maybe the Slowbro matchup.
 
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1) I could see us running a more defensive set that utilizes Pain Split and one of our three utility options. While I don't think a defensive set like this would be amazing given that we can't use 50% Recovery, I still think it could work with Pain Split. A bulky spinner, for instance, I believe could see usage, as over Colossoil and Equilibra it handles Water types and Zeraora a lot better.

2) I'll make one last push for Heal Bell/Aromatherapy here. While I think it would be worse without 50% Recovery, it is a way to help us stand out against Landorus-Therian and Garchomp, and makes us more effective against Zeraora carrying Toxic. Haze/Clear Smog is also cool because we have the bulk to utilize it, and another anti-setup Pokemon in the metagame would be appreciated, as unlike Toxapex we are not weak to any of Prologue's attacks.
 
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Another thing I want to add about other utility options is that if we give 31 too many utility options, we're often losing reasons to use Diamond Storm, which is central to the concept. If we consider utility options, shouldn't we be considering how use of those options relate to Diamond Storm?
 

Rabia

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Another thing I want to add about other utility options is that if we give 31 too many utility options, we're often losing reasons to use Diamond Storm, which is central to the concept. If we consider utility options, shouldn't we be considering how use of those options relate to Diamond Storm?
Yes, I thought that was implied tbh oops. But yeah, the idea is "what utility options could we have that work alongside Diamond Storm/help define certain archetypes we could fit while not overshadowing Diamond Storm."
 
Can we consider Meteor Mash? We don’t really have anything except DS that synergizes with Serene Grace as is. I would argue that a 40% chance to get +1 Attack is quite pro-concept and works well with Diamond Storm.

Other moves that could work well with SGrace:

Liquidation/Razor Shell/Crunch/Shadow Bone: These are neat. Razor Shell in particular lets Serene Grace CAP31 function as a good breaker. I’m less interested in Liquidation, as high-power Water coverage might overshadow DS even on Water Absorb sets, thanks to the matchup into Lando and others.

Poison Jab: This has been discussed before and I like it. I don’t have much to say about it that hasn’t been said before.

Flinch chance moves: nope. We’ll probably end up with one or two in our final movepool anyway, for coverage and flavor, but we definitely shouldn’t focus on them specifically.
 
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quziel

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ngl, Poison Fang feels like it could overshadow Dstorm on some sets, even on WA. Toxic with 45% less accuracy is still Toxic, it still lets you semi-reliably cripple opposing Lando, it still lets you semi-reliably cripple opposing Slowbro, Zapdos, and Tornadus-Therian. Fat sets will far prefer a bad version of Toxic over Diamond Storm, cause it'll do more damage over the long term.

1) What other archetypes could we fill with given our defining moves?

Bulky Setup Sweeper / Breaker (think Garchomp) is prolly our strongest role atm, given we have SD access, Dstorm access, and we're just really fat in general.

Hazard Control (with a choice of Rapid Spin or SR + Taunt or SD) is another fairly potent one. SD + Spin does worry me a tad, given that it lets us combine a very large number of boosts, but its prolly fine. I'd def prefer SR here, just cause I think its a fair bit more interesting, and combines super well with Taunt, but again, either works.

2) Our utility movepool right now is: Thunder Wave, Taunt, and Rapid Spin. Are there other utility options worth considering? Or would any other option be generally not worth running?

Similar to current Dragonite, I could legit see Heal Bell making sense here. A fair few of our switchin opportunies / mons that switch into us are Toxic / Wisp users (lotl, lando, pex, heatran), and Heal Bell could legit fit. We're also a great typing to fit onto existing cores as a cleric (eg Balloon Tran + 31 + Fog Torn makes a ton of sense).
 
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1) What other archetypes could we fill with given our defining moves?
In testing, I think my favorite build right now for CAP31 is Sub/SD/EQ/Diamond Storm. This enables CAP31 to function as a sort of bulky setup mon/balance breaker, where at +2 Defense it is extremely threatening to common cores of Lando/Ferro/Bird/Water.

2) Our utility movepool right now is: Thunder Wave, Taunt, and Rapid Spin. Are there other utility options worth considering? Or would any other option be generally not worth running?
I don't think any other utility is necessary, as access to these three moves is already plenty of utility. The moves SD, Pain Split/Substitute, EQ, and Diamond Storm already comprise a very strong set for CAP31, making most other moves far from necessary in my eyes.

In a similar vein to how I don't find any more utility really necessary, I don't really find any other coverage desirable either. It seems the current discussion on coverage seems more focused on increasing the viability of Serene Grace rather than the use of Diamond Storm, specifically with regards to Poison Jab and Poison Fang. From a coverage standpoint, Poison is really not that useful; we already handle Tapu Koko and Tapu Fini effectively, and can likely handle Clefable well enough. Even when fishing for Poison chances I don't really find the move being that useful, as for the most part a lot of Steels like Ferrothorn, Corviknight, Kartana, and Equilibra end up coming in on CAP31. The other two switch-ins I mostly saw in testing were Landorus(which we can alternatively beat at +2 Def with Substitute) and Buzzwole(which isn't used enough to warrant usage of Poison coverage). Other coverage moves like Overheat and Razor Shell fall into a similar trap where they're really only used to beat one mon each(Ferrothorn and Equilibra respectively) and as such will struggle to fit on a moveset most of the time, nor do I find giving CAP31 the coverage types to beat its current checks to be necessary for CAP31's viability.
 

spoo

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Re: poison fang/poison jab, I agree with what Darek has to say. Both of these don't spark joy; it's really hard for me to see them as anything more than "hey look we got serene grace, let's throw moves at it."

I would bet real money that CAP31 never runs Poison Fang on an offensive set –– its slots are much too strapped, and the move is much too low power. Talking about running it on defensive sets, but also giving up Diamond Storm for it on such a set, presupposes that defensive sets will be viable in the first place; I'm skeptical of this too, considering that we've seen how poorly a fat passive Ground-type fares in this meta (Hippo, to an extent Gastro). Something like Pfang/EQ/Rocks, Spin, etc/Recovery is total dead weight into both of the books, balloon Tran, Corv, other steels like Ferro and, hell, even Kartana; I just don't believe it would be practical.

Poison Fang also seems kind of bad, but if we're worrying about which move is less likely to steal Diamond Storm's slot, then I suppose it would be this one. Either way, I would argue that both of these don't move us towards our concept goal at all –– enabling or synergizing with Diamond Storm –– and are more so unnecessary moves that try to throw a bone to our secondary ability.

I also fall in a similar boat with Darek when it comes to other coverage options. Grass-type coverage was determined as useful early on, but I think anything outside of that only serves to lure our defensive checks (and often even fails in that goal).

Frankly, I don't find any move outside of EQ/DStorm/SD/Pain Split to be necessary for our viability at this point; however, Taunt and Stealth Rock seem like fine utility moves to add on. I'm not sure if they'll get much use, but it's fine for us to have a secondary role as a hazard setter, and Taunt facilitates this quite well and may even find use on some more offensive sets.
 

Brambane

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With 50% recovery being banned, I am going to toss Leech Seed into the limelight again.

Leech Seed is an alternative to Pain Split for unconventional recovery. It has some decent synergy with our stat spread, as a lower base HP/higher defenses means you are recovering a higher percentage of your overall bulk from draining moves. Leech Seed has fairly consistent counterplay in line with CAP31's answers. Ferrothorn is immune to it, as are the other Grass-types that can eat hits from CAP31 like Tapu Bulu, Corviknight pivots out of it, and even Equilibra has the obscure interaction of being able to spin it off. So its not impactful into the answers we would like to preserve, but it adds an additional recovery option to use instead of Pain Split. I don't know if Leech Seed could eclipse Pain Split entirely, I suspect that is unlikely, but the decent tempo plays and ability to passively heal while boosting with Diamond Storm seems suitable for our current direction.
 
ngl, Poison Fang feels like it could overshadow Dstorm on some sets, even on WA. Toxic with 45% less accuracy is still Toxic, it still lets you semi-reliably cripple opposing Lando, it still lets you semi-reliably cripple opposing Slowbro, Zapdos, and Tornadus-Therian. Fat sets will far prefer a bad version of Toxic over Diamond Storm, cause it'll do more damage over the long term.

No one is going to run Poison Fang on WA. Its inconsistency makes it worthless to anyone actually interested in winning multiple games. That would be like sticking Zap Cannon on a random offensive mon because you *could* fish for switches. If someone goes that route, they are going to be wasting a significant amount of turns for no reason. There's also the issue with EQ/Poison Fang/PS/Utility Option Almost Certain to Be Substitute or Taunt just isn't that good

I'm also not sure I understand Darek's argument that Poison Fang doesn't further the concept. The entire point of CAP31's use of Diamond Storm is to stay on the field through DS boosts. Badly Poisoned status places a countdown on its opponent's Pokemon, setting limits on counterplay. It certainly has more synergy with DS than hazards have lol. Poison Jab is good too, as it's more threatening to Rillaboom. But it's not capable of matching Toxic Buzzwole. Poison Fang also threatens Tapu Bulu, but it doesn't threaten Fini. because of Misty Surge and the fact it doesn't even 2HKO scarf fini at max investment.

252 Atk Arceus Poison Fang vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 112-134 (32.8 - 39.2%) -- 9.6% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery and toxic damage

252 Atk Arceus Poison Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 92-110 (32.7 - 39.1%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO


Anyways, I find it amusing that there is a divide between those who think it will be too good, and those who think it will typically be a waste of a moveslot. It's a novel interaction that makes the most out of Diamond Storm, but has a hard time fitting on sweeper sets. imo it's a really balanced option that becomes immensely strong when it's backed by Diamond Storm and is pretty bad without it.
 
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Can we consider Meteor Mash? We don’t really have anything except DS that synergizes with Serene Grace as is. I would argue that a 40% chance to get +1 Attack is quite pro-concept and works well with Diamond Storm.
I am a fan of this move, but in a set of sub/sd/eq/ds which move do you replace with meteor mash? I guess sd, but I don't think mediocre unboosted steel coverage gives 31 very much; it lets it deal with clefable, whom 31 doesn't really even struggle against, and that's about it. If we look at the other fairies in the tier, koko and lele are neutral against steel and are dealt with by WA ground anyway, alolatails and clef are hit by ds and eq, and that leaves just lele that meteor mash acts to counter. And wrt that:

252+ Atk CAP31 Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 260-306 (92.5 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

yeah, not even a 100% chance to OKHO. 40% isn't even that high, you have to hit 4 meteor mashes before your chance of +2atk is >50%, and you have to hit 6 for it to surpass 75%. If you want to even think about staying in the field that long, you're going to need both sub and recovery, which means forgoing that edgequake coverage. It's a harmless addition, but overall will realistically never see use.
 
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