CAP 32 - Part 19 - Post Play Lookback 2

[Pipotchi]

WIP

Nerf Package:
- Bitter Blade
- 6 Atk

I really think that the issue with why Hemo still feels overtuned is having access to a STAB move that not only has good BP, but also augments its overall bulk by recovering damage done to it. I think losing Bitter Blade will force Hemogoblin to be stuck in between the choices of coverage in the form of Ground Tera Blast, utility from Knock Off, set up with Bulk Up, and the choice of recovery in Moonlight after choosing its STAB moves (in this case Fire Lash and Extreme Speed should Bitter Blade be taken away). I also think an overall nerf to its Attack would ease Hemo's overbearing presence to fatter teams while still taking care of the offensive teams that it should be beating. For example, 90 Attack still grabs the OHKO on non-Tera'd Iron Valiant but can still make plenty of progress with Fire Lash providing a -1 Defense on the opponent should it have to face fatter teams.

I like this because Hemo already offers an incentive for use for its dominant matchup (and blanket checking) vs a ton of sweepers and killing a bunch of stuff with +0 Extremespeed even before considering its other tools. The way it trades with bulk up, potential screen and bitter blade is pretty wild and the main culprit behind being able to deal with stuff that it shouldnt like Venomicon, as well as just being one of multiple near-signature moves slammed into the same chassis. The "downgrade" to Fire Lash is noticeable but like Kenn said still has value as one of the best fire type attacks with immense synergy with its other options like Extremespeed and Explosion.

Not sure about the attack drop but overall this mon would still have purpose despite its sweeping strength taking a sizeable whack. I would like to see Pixilate Extremespeed on a more niche mon anyway as its constricting to teambuilding.



Edit: just gunna throw an edit in here to mention that I dont think any of the packages that add something back to Hemo are necessary. The mon is at the top of the tier in both viability and usage, and knocking down a mon that should be considered A+ a couple of rungs doesnt warrant any cushioning, especially with how none of these changes are damning. Yes, adding a new move will help Hemo with certain situations. But we dont need to give it that handout either, as it excels in other situations. It also has a bunch of moves lying around that are good (and can rise to a 4th slot usage) that it hasnt had to use yet because its main 4 moves are so strong.

 

[Binacle Pinnacle]

WIP
Nerf Package:
-Bitter Blade
As far as nerfing the Bulk Up set goes, I think that removing Bitter Blade is the best option. Hemogoblin already has above average natural bulk and reliable physical STAB in Fire Lash, so the removal of Bitter Blade wouldn't change as much about how Hemo is played as much as removing Knock Off would. As for stat nerfs, I don't think they do much to make Hemo any less threatening in the builder unless they happened to be massive changes, so I wouldn't bother personally.
+Boomburst
+Volt Switch
+Spikes
Returning moves that shouldn't have been removed in the first place. Losing such a unique mon for the the sole purpose of cleaning up Hemo's movepool is a huge waste of potential. As viol and bass mentioned in their post, the set's lack off viability isn't tied to the set itself, it simply doesn't fare well in the current meta. I see no reason to not give this set a chance.
Stat Changes from previous nerf package reverted (+3 Attack, +2 Defense, +8 Special Defense)
These nerfs would be unnecessary should this package be chosen, as they were made to nerf a Hemogoblin with access to Bitter Blade.

 

[Palosaks]

I've been try to remake my package but I keep coming back to one option that has already been posted

-Knock Off
+Crunch or +Spikes whichever suits your fancy

While I did previously say I didn't like the idea of removing knock off because it was too major of a change I've given this more thought and I've come to the conclusion that removing knock and giving it something else to use is the best route to take here, while it is a major change that's ultimately for the better, it lets hemo significantly harm it's checks in a way that makes it way harder of them to come in, as such by removing knock off hemo's checks can actually check it without needing to fear coming in, now I still stand by saying that removing just knock deprives hemo of options, but by giving it something else we give hemo it's options back while making still letting it's checks do their job.

Now, specifically I think out of these options +Spikes is the route to go as crunch does nothing but counter galarian slowing and it's probably better off not being able to do that considering we're trying to make hemo's checks check it, this is also why I don't like other potential tools hemo could receive in place of knock off, mainly wave crash and stone edge, both break things we shouldn't let hemo break, for stone edge it's venomicon and for wave crash it's garg and heatran.
(252+ Atk Hemogoblin Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 140+ Def Garganacl: 152-180 (37.6 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Hemogoblin Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 224-264 (58 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)
Now, the response to that may be to give hemo lower base power rock or water coverage, the problem is then they do nothing to not only hemo's checks but also the things they would supposed to hit, as such it would just be better to not deal with giving hemo coverage like that at all. Spikes feels better to me because because it could give hemo something to run over tera blast, which basicly forces it into using tera which makes it a tera hog, which is probably the thing I'm the most concerned could happen with removing knock off, though I think the negatives of keeping knock makes the risk worth it.

 

[Tommaniacal]

Final Submission

-19 Sp. Def

New stats: 90 / 96 / 87 / 99 / 70 / 55 (497)

Most of the Pokémon that currently check Hemogoblin (Venomicon, Galarian Slowking, Heatran) are special attackers, so this package grants them much more potency against it.

Specifically, 70 Sp. Def guarantees that Equilibra OHKOs with Earth Power. It also gives Galarian Slowking a 56% chance to OHKO with Sludge Bomb, and guarantees that utility Glimmora and Iron Moth OHKO max HP Hemogoblin.

Calcs

36 SpA Equilibra Earth Power vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Hemogoblin: 342-404 (100.5 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

120 SpA Slowking-Galar Sludge Bomb vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Hemogoblin: 314-372 (92.3 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Glimmora Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hemogoblin: 396-468 (103.1 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hemogoblin: 440-518 (114.5 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Surf vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Hemogoblin: 377-447 (110.8 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Swiffix]

I agree with the general sentiment that Hemogoblin offers a great playstyle, especially in the current metagame, but requires a nerf due to its ease in setting up sweeps and ability to inflict significant damage even on its supposed checks. As a result:

Final Submission
- Bitter Blade

I was definitely torn between Bitter Blade and Knock Off, as both contribute to Hemogoblin's excessive threat level. I ultimately opted for the removal of Bitter Blade due to its more pronounced impact on the end-result.

Knock Off makes opponents think twice before switching in their responses to Hemogoblin. As others have pointed out, Garganacl, Venomicon, Heatran, and Equilibra are all generally item-reliant, allowing Hemogoblin to punish them substantially with this move.

On the other hand, Bitter Blade makes it extremely difficult to work around Hemogoblin. Not only does it deal signicant damage from being a 90 BP STAB, but it also allows it to overcome some of the aforementioned checks, like Venomicon and Equilibra. Combining offensive recovery with Hemogoblin's access to a very powerful priority move in ESpeed makes it overwhelming for too many mons.

In a way, Bitter Blade is also guilty of what Knock Off is being accused of—allowing Hemogoblin to effectively counter its own counters. However, the concerns surrounding Bitter Blade run deeper, while Knock Off's problem seems limited to just that. In fact, Hemogoblin can usually sweep with just its combination of Bitter Blade and ESpeed, which is why I ultimately don't view Knock Off as being the bigger issue. The combination of a 96 BP STAB priority with a 90 BP STAB recovery is, to me, what justifies Hemogoblin's need for nerfing, and eliminating the latter is the ideal solution as it would preserve its playstyle but make it less overbearing.

With Bitter Blade gone, Hemogoblin can still benefit from Fire Lash as its Fire-type STAB, offering a niche in breaking down certain walls without turning it into a self sufficient monster that can afford to stay in against almost anything. Alternatively, opting for Moonlight would prioritize longevity at the cost of one of its offensive moves. In other words, Hemogoblin will still have access to a strong Fire STAB and to recovery, just not to both in one moveslot.

 

[dex]

Final Submission

-Knock Off, +Spikes

Knock Off makes Hemogoblin incredibly frustrating to switch into. This should not be the case for a late-game sweeper as potent as it is. The (re)addition of Spikes lets it inhabit a Battle Bond Greninja type of role, using Spikes to generate value before its sweep is fully prepared for. Any SM OU enjoyer will remember the Specs Spikes Gren gameplan, chipping foes like Toxapex and Tapu Fini over time instead of crippling them immediately. I'm not convinced that any coverage is actually meaningful enough to get run (or clicked, at least), and Spikes definitely promotes a more unique and balanced style while accomplishing a similar feat to Knock Off, being weakening its checks, albeit at a slower pace. This change ultimately seeks to slow down the rate at which Hemogoblin and its team members weaken foes into range of a Hemogoblin sweep without too drastically changing what Hemogoblin can and cannot set up on.

 

[spoo]

Slate time!

kenn's proposal: This proposal puts Bitter Blade in its crosshairs as the main culprit behind Hemogoblin's excess strength. In removing this move, Hemogoblin is forced to rely on the slightly weaker Fire Lash as its primary Fire-type STAB, greatly diminishing its longevity and lowering its immediate KO power against foes like Equilibra and Kingambit as a result.

Tommaniacal's proposal: This proposal opts to leave Hemogoblin's movepool alone and instead target its special bulk. With a decrease of -19 Special Defense, it means that Hemogoblin has a more difficult job staying healthy throughout a match, makes certain setup opportunities harder to come by, and increases the potency of special checks like Venomicon, Galarian Slowking, and Heatran.

dex's proposal: This proposal cuts Hemogoblin's biggest tool for making progress in Knock Off and replaces it with the less efficient but still effective Spikes. Without Knock Off, Hemogoblin can no longer immediately cripple some of its best checks like Venomicon, Heatran, and easily break past foes like Galarian Slowking; however, Spikes still lets Hemogoblin make progress for its teammates and chip its switch-ins –– just at a slower rate than before.

That's pretty much it from me for this process, it's been great being your TL . Poll will be up soon!

 

[spoo]

plot twist, I lied about this thread being done –– reopening things very briefly to raise one last question! to preface, I acknowledge this "issue" is a very minor one, so thanks for bearing with me here.

now that PPL changes are over and done with, I *personally* believe it would be beneficial to lower hemogoblin's special attack. these are the two reasons I have in mind:

1. it streamlines hemogoblin into having a much lower BST without affecting its viability –– like, at all –– and as such, could be seen as furthering the achievement of our concept
2. I find it misleading, or at the very least confusing, that our highest stat is one we don't use –– this is strange optics mainly for people new to the tier/who didn't follow hemogoblin's process, but I would argue it is also just strange in general

I admit that the first point is primarily flavor-motivated, but like I said, I think there is an argument to be made that it's genuinely a pro-concept move, even if a small one. the second point, on the other hand, has more substance behind it –– I hope it's straightforward to see how this could be a confusing feature of the mon, and I hope it is common sense that we should minimize/avoid these features when possible.

I raised this topic in modchat recently, and it was suggested that I reopen this thread to discuss it since I (rightfully) don't have the power or justification to make this change unilaterally. so, I ask the following questions:

• do you agree that we should lower hemogoblin's special attack? if so, what's a good benchmark? (the benchmark should have some justification, whether that's BSR, flavor, or anything else you come up with).

edit: because this really isn't a Big Deal and I'm not expecting a ton of discussion, I will be closing the thread (again) after a short ~24hrs

 

[Da Pizza Man]

This sort of just feels like we are just prolonging the process just for the sake of it. Modifying Hemogoblin's Special Attack isn't going to affect anything since Special Sets are barely used as they are, and it's generally agreed that Hemo's current stat spread is fairly pro-concept as it is. I don't really see any reason to change anything here to be honest.

2) I find it misleading, or at the very least confusing, that our highest stat is one we don't use –– this is strange optics mainly for people new to the tier/who didn't follow hemogoblin's process, but I would argue it is also just strange in general

This is straight up not an issue, especially when the difference between our Attack and our Special Attack incredibly minor. There have been several different examples of Pokemon who are/have been viable in OU/CAP that used their lower attacking stat on their most popular set (Krilowatt, Lucario, Dragapult, and Nidoking all come to mind immediately, and there are probably more examples that would work that I'm missing). I also expect that even newer users are going to be far more likely to gravitate towards physical sets anyways, since those types of users are already going to be attracted to broken-on-paper combos like -ate Speed like moths are to a flame.

 

[chartung17]

I agree that reducing special attack is pro-concept. I like the idea of reducing it until we have under 500 BST, but if we want to take "Bang Average" literally, the average* BST for fully-evolved Pokémon is 501 (504 if you include CAPs).

*National Dex, including all formes except in-battle forme changes, excluding the legends with 670+ BST

 

[Zetalz]

DPM's post hit the nail on the head. This is hardly worth re-opening discourse for and feels misguided. You're not going to move the needle much on optics by lowering it's SpA an arbitrary amount to make it's Atk more appealing and BST less egregious (this even only in relation to it's concept, which the average user isn't likely to know/care much about anyways).

We've accepted that Hemo's stat spread wasn't really in line with the concept, we've lived and we've learned. We don't need to dwell on it any longer than we already have just to make it the tiniest bit more visually appealing to the few who would know enough about Hemo's process to care about it.

 

[Palosaks]

Personally I like hemo using the lower of it's two attack stats, it reminds me of nidoking and I think it's simply neat, that being said it is just a relic of when hemo has meant to be mixed but I'm not sure if it's worth changing, it's a 3 point difference so it's not like too many new players are going to think "oh man, special sets must be stronger than physical", especially if once they see pixilate espeed and bitter blade alongside bulk up yet no special boosting, it should send a clear message of which bias works better for hemo, plus there is precedent for having a mon us it's lower attacking stat in mons like nidoking, lucario, or even prior cpas like krillowatt or aurumoth, the latter of which also just being a 3 point difference, I don't really feel like this is an issue, that being said it is weird how as is hemo does from having higher attack as scattervein (74 attack/62 sp.attack) to higher sp.attack so that plus is being pro-concept give the idea of lowering hemo's sp.attack some precedent.

Ultimately I believe it would be better to change it to make it more clear that hemo does in fact fulfill the concept because as is I can see people just looking at the bst and thinking it failed despite it being inflated because of the sp.attack, in addition to the other reasons stated, I propose we lower hemo's special attack to 72, there are a few reasons for 72 in particular, mainly scattervein's is 62 and it getting a small buff on eve just makes sense but it also brings hemo's bst to a nice 489, this also means that upon evolution hemo's bst would go up 38, an amount in line with Pokemon that gained an evo in gen 4, which is what scattervein's bst was based on. (for reference magmar to magmortar goes up by 55, with magmar being the pokemon that influnced scattervein's bst the most.)

Edit: I suck at math (my original numbers for the bst were wrong, though I think it still works despite not being as perfect)

 

[Katabatic]

I don't see any good reason not to do this, since it takes minimal time and resources and is a nice little bow on the whole concept. Palosaks makes a good argument for -17, and I'd also support -14 to match chartung17's observation of the actual average pokemon BST (and to hew to Magmar->Magmortar even closer).

 

[Amamama]

I agree with DPM. I can’t see the stats being misleading once you see the moves it has.
And while the bst isn’t tff gf e lowest among CAPs the distribution is still average enough.
Arguably a non tailored BST feels actually less artificial and makes the stats look more average than a spread with a clear dump stat.

 

[shnowshner]

it streamlines hemogoblin into having a much lower BST without affecting its viability –– like, at all –– and as such, could be seen as furthering the achievement of our concept

it doesn't effect bsr which is ultimately the important part of our concept. our bst could be 98 points lower if we nuked our special stat and this would change nothing about how good our stat spread actually is.

I find it misleading, or at the very least confusing, that our highest stat is one we don't use –– this is strange optics mainly for people new to the tier/who didn't follow hemogoblin's process, but I would argue it is also just strange in general

if someone sees our special stat is three points higher than our attack and immediately decide that special is the best route available, all the while managing to ignore the stacked physical moves in our kit that clearly point in that direction, said person was not going to make it far in the first place. i can't imagine anyone that is remotely interested with competitive play would get hung up at our special attack being higher than attack: if you have any sort of common sense you'd realize the special movepool is lacking and physical is a better route, if not than you probably do not care about playing seriously anyway. i feel like we'd actually want to have people asking these questions: if someone asks "why does this mon have higher special yet is physical" that's an easy way to cue them in on the cap process.

i'd rather keep the special attack stat as-is as a way of showing courtesy to the original spread vile and base created.

 

[shnowshner]

it doesn't effect bsr which is ultimately the important part of our concept. our bst could be 98 points lower if we nuked our special stat and this would change nothing about how good our stat spread actually is.


if someone sees our special stat is three points higher than our attack and immediately decide that special is the best route available, all the while managing to ignore the stacked physical moves in our kit that clearly point in that direction, said person was not going to make it far in the first place. i can't imagine anyone that is remotely interested with competitive play would get hung up at our special attack being higher than attack: if you have any sort of common sense you'd realize the special movepool is lacking and physical is a better route, if not than you probably do not care about playing seriously anyway. i feel like we'd actually want to have people asking these questions: if someone asks "why does this mon have higher special yet is physical" that's an easy way to cue them in on the cap process.

i'd rather keep the special attack stat as-is as a way of showing courtesy to the original spread vile and base created.

hi spoo hijacked this account

so lowering special does affect our bsr, however when i said "bsr" here i was refering to the stats we actually use, essentially our "functional bsr" since we're not using special in the first place. the bsr calc doesn't know that so it assumes we have equal reason to run both (we don't).

 

[Samirsin]

Hello, here I present my idea on Hemogoblin's nerf to Special Attack purely based on flavor.
Lowering its Special Attack will not affect the mon in any way, so I took that and did some research so that this could make sense.
Behold, my proposal on Hemo's new statline:

90/96/87/82/89/55
BST of 499 (-17 to SpA)
​

Now, you may be wondering why. Well, here are the reasons: Considering Hemo's attack and special attack stats, with this BST we can see an average amount of beats per minute (BPM) of a human heart, 82 being on the lower side and 96 on the higher, but still being within the amount of normal BPM (playing with the "average" theme).

And now, why 499 BST? Two reasons: 499 is just below 500, which is average according to the post of chartung17, as the concept it is based on.
And the second: the MIR499A Gene. The MIR499A (MicroRNA 499a) is an RNA Gene, and is affiliated with the miRNA class. Diseases associated with MIR499A include Acute Myocardial Infarction and Dilated Cardiomyopathy, which are both cardiovascular diseases (Hemogoblin is a heart). (source)

This would give us a flavor-inclined BST and the reduction of its SpA stat while maintaining the structure of Hemogoblin.

 

[Tommaniacal]

I'm ultimately indifferent to altering Hemo's Sp. Attack stat.

While yes it may be confusing to new players, being honest the CAP process as a whole is confusing and has pretty high barriers of entry (the damage calculator and smogon pages often being outdated, the ladder not being the best way to find games, flavor information being difficult to find, etc) so having higher special attack isn't going to be the first issue new players run into.

Keeping the special stat high may also help Hemo out in the future, you never know. If someone told me 5 years ago that AV Toxapex was going to be meta I would never have believed them.

 

[viol and bass]

Yeah, I don't really see the point to be honest. I don't think the builder issue is really gonna be a problem, because when decent players try to build a special set and see it has nothing to work with, they'll realize physical is better. And if we're talking about ladder, where physical Stratagem is a thing you see sometimes, I don't think nuking the stat is gonna stop truly casual players from using special sets if they feel like it....

Edit: if we do it though I endorse Samirsin's spread, that is some good flavor

 

[Brown4Sides]

Hello, here I present my idea on Hemogoblin's nerf to Special Attack purely based on flavor.
Lowering its Special Attack will not affect the mon in any way, so I took that and did some research so that this could make sense.
Behold, my proposal on Hemo's new statline:

90/96/87/82/89/55
BST of 499 (-17 to SpA)
​

Now, you may be wondering why. Well, here are the reasons: Considering Hemo's attack and special attack stats, with this BST we can see an average amount of beats per minute (BPM) of a human heart, 82 being on the lower side and 96 on the higher, but still being within the amount of normal BPM (playing with the "average" theme).

And now, why 499 BST? Two reasons: 499 is just below 500, which is average according to the post of chartung17, as the concept it is based on.
And the second: the MIR499A Gene. The MIR499A (MicroRNA 499a) is an RNA Gene, and is affiliated with the miRNA class. Diseases associated with MIR499A include Acute Myocardial Infarction and Dilated Cardiomyopathy, which are both cardiovascular diseases (Hemogoblin is a heart). (source)

This would give us a flavor-inclined BST and the reduction of its SpA stat while maintaining the structure of Hemogoblin.

Even if this is has no competitive impact, this is still adjusting a mon's stats for flavor reasons, and doing something "for flavor" is never a good reason to do anything (see Venomicon-Epilogue losing 1 point off of its Sp. Attack for the sake of giving it a BST divisible by 5 despite the fact that Tyrantrum and Aurorus have BSTs of 521).

There's nothing more I can say without beating a dead horse. There's nothing wrong with preferring to use our lower attacking stat. You could argue that it's a noob trap, but if people are serious about winning they will use the right sets.

 

[Jewvia]

I just want to throw an extra point in favour of dropping the special attack. The reason its there is the same reason why we had moves like Boomburst, Fiery Dance, Volt Switch, etc. We originally had plans for a Special Attack route for Hemogoblin. With those 3 moves being banned after the stats phase that required Boomburst, I feel like it is worth considering dumping the Special Attack to bring it more in line with optics/flavour/the specific wording of the concept.

 

[chartung17]

Even if this is has no competitive impact, this is still adjusting a mon's stats for flavor reasons, and doing something "for flavor" is never a good reason to do anything

We are not talking about doing it "for flavor", we're talking about doing it to better fulfill our concept.

 

[Brown4Sides]

We are not talking about doing it "for flavor", we're talking about doing it to better fulfill our concept.

Samirsin's proposal mentioned having its stats reference MIR499A, which would play into Hemogoblin being a heart. That is the definition of doing something for flavor.

It doesn't really fulfill the concept further either. Our goal was to make a mon with mediocre stats work in the metagame. We did that already. Lowering its stats further changes nothing in this regard. BST is also irrelevant as the BSR is what mattered with this concept.

 

[chartung17]

Samirsin's proposal mentioned having its stats reference MIR499A, which would play into Hemogoblin being a heart. That is the definition of doing something for flavor.

It doesn't really fulfill the concept further either. Our goal was to make a mon with mediocre stats work in the metagame. We did that already. Lowering its stats further changes nothing in this regard. BST is also irrelevant as the BSR is what mattered with this concept.

This pokemon will attempt to circumvent average or below average stats to become viable.

That doesn't look to me like BST is irrelevant. Also, my point was that we're reducing special attack in order to fulfill the concept better; if we do reduce special attack, there's no competitive or concept reason to reduce it by any particular amount, so there's no reason not to choose the amount based on flavor.

 

[Wulfanator]

That doesn't look to me like BST is irrelevant. Also, my point was that we're reducing special attack in order to fulfill the concept better; if we do reduce special attack, there's no competitive or concept reason to reduce it by any particular amount, so there's no reason not to choose the amount based on flavor.

If you want to super achieve concept, drop its dump stat to 1 (spatk). You get 418 BST which is well below average.

Why dont we do this? It's because it is a flawed way to view concept fulfillment. You can't say we've better achieved concept fulfillment by adjusting the stat that has no bearing on the mon. BST is a fake criteria to base the concept on and is something we've heavily talked about throughout this project.