CAP 34 - Part 5 - Defining Moves 2

[quziel]

CAP34 So Far

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In this stage, we will develop a list of moves that will meaningfully affect future stages of the process for this CAP. These moves will need to be addressed in the stat limits and stat submission stages in order to contextualize submitted spreads. For example, a stat submission that elects to choose stronger Defining Moves from the "Choose At Least One" or "Optional" lists will be put under heavier scrutiny than those without them. The Movepool SL will organize these moves into the following lists, as needed:

1. Required: Stat spreads (or other future stages) must account for this move / these moves.
2. Choose At Least One: Stat spreads (or other future stages) must account for at least one of these moves.
3. Optional: Stat spreads (or other future stages) can elect to use these moves or not.

Moves that can be chosen as Defining Moves should be in the following categories:

• Boosting Moves
• Recovery Moves
• High Base-Power Moves
• Strong Utility Moves (self-switching moves, hazards, etc.)

Controversial moves or placements in lists can be sent to poll if the Movepool SL deems it necessary.

Please do not polljump by talking about specific stat spreads or suggesting specific abilities (outside of those already voted for by the community).

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With that I'll hand it over to SHSP

 

[SHSP]

Alright! Happy to be back in Defining Moves and ready to get us going on this stage again. Let's get right into the questions:

1- We have our typing, we have a general idea of our role, and we have a preliminary list of build-around, defining sound moves from the original Defining Moves stage of the project. What other types of moves facilitate what we are trying to do here? What helps us achieve our goals of being a strong user of Throat Spray outside of what we already know? Are there sound moves that fill these relevant roles?

2- How much support do we need from our other moves to find success in our role? What holes in our build do we need to patch, and what can be done specifically here as compared to Stats?

3- In contrast to the first question, what actively hurts us? What types of moves detract from Throat Spray, and what don't help us in what roles we're looking to fulfil?

4- We have also just selected the priority-blocking abilities as our primary ability option. Does anything stand out as a particularly good fit alongside our ability? How important is the synergy between our moveset and this particular ability?


I want to focus on these questions more generally at first (which I'm sure comes as a shock to all of you). Feel free to use specific moves as examples of these sort of classes and types of moves, but don't push too hard for any specific moves yet. There will be plenty of time in this stage to do so, and I think getting a clearer focus on what works well and what doesn't with the various pieces of our kit so far will help set us up for a really excellent stage. Excited to be hearing from everyone!

 

[Amamama]

What other types of moves facilitate what we are trying to do here?

Coverage. For this typing specifically that means Fire, Water or Fighting type coverage.

How much support do we need from our other moves to find success in our role? What holes in our build do we need to patch, and what can be done specifically here as compared to Stats?

The biggest hole we have to patch is STABs not hitting steel types at all. Making the Matchup vs. Bulky grounds better is another good option. This also can’t be solved in stats.
Given that Dazzling 99% requires Clangorous Soul, CAP 34 probably cannot afford to run any utility since you need the slots for STABs and Coverage.

In contrast to the first question, what actively hurts us? What types of moves detract from Throat Spray, and what don't help us in what roles we're looking to fulfil?

Atm the biggest thing that could actively hurt this build (specifically it’s concept fulfillment) is not having access to Clangorous Soul. Even with Soul more traditional items aren’t entirely out of the question give how good preventing hazards is with Clang Soul taking 33% of your health. But at least Clang Soul usually means committing to the sweep, which means Throat Spray has a lot more immediate value.
Meanwhile without Clangorous Soul, there’s nothing really that forces you to commit to a sweep, which means Throat Spray has much less incentive to be run compared to boots.
Given that we are now maybe the best Hemogoblin Check next to Heatran - obviously stats pending ( And Yes Tera makes that irrelevant), we really value the consistency of boots.
Given that a plus 1 boost isn’t that much and we likely need great natural Speed and Spa without Clang Soul, it becomes even more likely that this Mon starts running boots to be consistent.
why throw away a Mon for a meager plus 1, when I can check Hemogoblin and Kingambit even with 1% health in an endgame scenario. Throat Spray becomes a huge opportunity cost and greed option without Clangorous Soul.
And I again want to refute comparison’s to Stratagem. Meteor Beam requires White Herb to be used. Neither Clanging Scales nor Clangorous Soul require Throat Spray our Typing and Ability don’t incentivize Spray and Clanging Scales specifically is almost better on a Mon that is able to switch in and out easily, making Boots much more enticing.

I don’t think anything in particular synergizes greatly with Dazzling except Clangorous Soul itself.

 

[mark6870]

1-Assuming we have Clanging Scales/Clangorous Soul, the best thing we can have is stronger versions of the coverage moves listed in the first defining moves. Because we already have a viable way to proc throat spray consistently, we would be better off using Thunderbolt or Hydro Pump instead of Overdrive or Sparkling Aria.

2-We need coverage for Steel types as they are prominent and neither STAB hits them hard.

3- Any form of viable setup such as Calm Mind or Nasty Plot are immediately off the table as it invalidates Throat Spray. I would also argue that in this setting our typing lends itself much better to archetypes such as bulky pivot or boots AoA than being a sweeper, so any moves that incentivize anything but being a sweeper should be ignored. This includes recovery (that isn't a draining move), hazards, self switching moves, and other strong utility like status, taunt, or encore.

4- Our priority blocking ability synergizes most with Clangorous Soul. It compensates for the lowered HP by making CAP34 immune to strong priority but otherwise our ability is just a nice situational benefit instead of a core part of our kit that we heavily rely on.

 

[viol and bass]

We have also just selected the priority-blocking abilities as our primary ability option. Does anything stand out as a particularly good fit alongside our ability? How important is the synergy between our moveset and this particular ability?

First, I want to acknowledge that of course, priority blocking works well with Clangorous Soul. Any speed boosting mon would kill for a priority immunity in this metagame.

But I actually want to make the argument that our ability has a lot of synergy with a soulless build too. The ability to use an attacking move like Clanging Scales or Sparkling Aria as a form of setup, coupled with the defense drop on our most viable STAB, as well as an immunity to the myriad priority in the tier, all lend themselves very strongly to a serious glass cannon. I realize this is a stats-centric archetype so I hope I'm not poll jumping, but Clangorous Soul kind of throws the "attacking move as setup" route out the window, which I think would be a shame to let go of entirely. It's one of the biggest strengths of our chosen item. Real glass cannons are very hard to make work this gen because of multiple forms of strong priority on basically every team, but we're completely immune to that priority.

You can sort of have a Clangorous Soul glass cannon, but then you can't boost and pick off a threat in the same turn, so you need to be able to tank hits in order to set up. It's a more conventional build for gen 9, where almost every offensive mon has bulk. Not having to tank a hit while boosting, while being immune to priority, allows builds that would be basically unworkable in most processes to actually work. I know some have voiced the opinion that you cannot make Throat Spray predominant at this point without Clangorous Soul, but I disagree and I think it'd be helpful to have that discussion.

One thing I want to mention is that while boots will always be something to contend with, not having to worry about being picked off by priority does lessen their impact on us as a sweeper or cleaner. To me this helps tip the balance a bit toward Throat Spray even without Clangorous Soul.

 

[Sawyer.]

I am strongly opposed to Clangorous Soul. I don't deny that it is a natural pairing with Dazzling and that it will offer us the most flexibility at the stats stage. However, it strikes me as a fundamentally weak and unsatisfying way of fulfilling our concept.

Firstly, Clangorous Soul is the one move that essentially mandates the use of Throat Spray for a special attacker. To me, giving CAP34 Clangorous Soul would be a sign that the CAP community simply doesn't trust itself to build a Pokemon that - through the cohesion of more subtle elements - makes Throat Spray the optimal choice of item. We would be railroading players completely into using Throat Spray, rather than taking the "risk" of failing to achieve our concept. This fearful mentality needs to be avoided at all costs, because it curtails the most creative and educational aspects of the CAP process.

Furthermore, as we've chosen to make use of Throat Spray, I would prefer to showcase the unique benefits of this unusual item. The defining competitive characteristics of Throat Spray are that it allows a Pokemon to attack and boost at the same time, potentially eliminating the need to take a hit while setting up, and that it frees up a moveslot. However, activating Throat Spray through Clangorous Soul negates these unique advantages. I would rather see CAP34 defined by Throat Spray than by Clangorous Soul.

Amamama made the following points to argue that Clangorous Soul is essential for CAP34:

1. Without Clangorous Soul, CAP34 will not have enough incentive to run Throat Spray over Boots, especially as it is a natural counter to Hemogoblin.
2. Without Clangorous Soul, CAP34 will need great natural special attack, thereby reducing the incentive to use Throat Spray.

I respectfully disagree for these reasons:

1. CAP34's role will be primarily that of a lategame sweeper. There are therefore very few circumstances in which CAP34 will not be able to check Hemogoblin if needed, with or without HDB.
2. Without Clangorous Soul, CAP34 would not need great natural special attack. It would need to have enough power to claim key KOs at +1, but not while unboosted. This should be fairly elementary for our community.

 

[dex]

one more reminder that I'm posting as a user not as a TL

1- We have our typing, we have a general idea of our role, and we have a preliminary list of build-around, defining sound moves from the original Defining Moves stage of the project. What other types of moves facilitate what we are trying to do here? What helps us achieve our goals of being a strong user of Throat Spray outside of what we already know? Are there sound moves that fill these relevant roles?

I think coverage is the best possible thing to give CAP 34. There are two coverage types that stand out: Fire and Water. Fire coverage hits Steel-types like Equilibra and Gholdengo, common foes that CAP 34's STABs are ineffectual against. Water coverage hits Ground-types like Gliscor that may be just bulky enough to revenge kill CAP 34. Coverage for Arghonaut feels largely useless, as its not gonna KO and CAP 34 will just get circle thrown, so I don't think that that should be a focus. The better way to beat Arghonaut is with stats, not with moves. I think the sound moves that we should look to build around are Clangorous Soul and Clanging Scales. No other sound move feels great now to build around and I don't even think any of them are that good on CAP 34 at this point. Sparkling Aria is fine-ish but by no means a first choice when it comes to coverage. Boomburst is strangely not that good on CAP 34 because it attracts in Steel-types. I'd rather have coverage for them than Boomburst, so that too probably shouldn't be discussed in future stages.

2- How much support do we need from our other moves to find success in our role? What holes in our build do we need to patch, and what can be done specifically here as compared to Stats?

I think to succeed in the sweeper role from this point, CAP 34 is just gonna need some good stats and Fire coverage. That's really all there is to it, you could throw in some other coverage type or some utility in Taunt or Encore to ease set-up, but I don't think it is that complicated (the path, not the actual subs).

3- In contrast to the first question, what actively hurts us? What types of moves detract from Throat Spray, and what don't help us in what roles we're looking to fulfil?

Missed an L there SHSP, and you aren't one to miss many Ls...
To be honest, I think if CAP 34 needs to rely on another sound move besides either of the clanging ones, it's not gonna be viable. This is mainly due to CAP 34 just not wanting to activate its boost prematurely. It's good to have decent coverage that you don't need to commit to like that: think of it like Latios running both Draco Meteor and Dragon Pulse. It could be strong to click Draco, but it is also a large commitment that you can be punished for.

4- We have also just selected the priority-blocking abilities as our primary ability option. Does anything stand out as a particularly good fit alongside our ability? How important is the synergy between our moveset and this particular ability?

All of a sudden, CAP 34 is looking like a great check to a ton of Pokemon, which is awesome to see for its future competitive health. I don't think there is much room to synergize between moves and ability. Certainly, the ability makes it a whole heck of a lot easier to just run 4 attacks or 3 attacks + Clangorous Soul because Sucker Punch just doesn't matter. I will say, if CAP 34 can't actually take advantage of priority Pokemon (i.e. OHKO Kingambit when it counts) then the ability is pointless, so I think the best way to synergize with CAP 34's ability is through stats (more importantly, having some big ones).

I told myself I would stay out of other people's posts, but this point particularly irked me.

To me, giving CAP34 Clangorous Soul would be a sign that the CAP community simply doesn't trust itself to build a Pokemon that - through the cohesion of more subtle elements - makes Throat Spray the optimal choice of item

This is a ridiculous thing to say, flatly. The design space for this concept was always going to be narrow due to the nature of the concept: there's only so much you can do with items that don't see that much play (and don't for good reasons, the others are very good). The express goal of the community currently is to make a Pokemon that primarily uses Throat Spray. Nowhere does it say that the end result needs to be experimental and daring and risky. It doesn't need to be solved through subtle means, it just needs to be solved. This would be like not giving Chromera Boomburst because it's too obvious a way around Color Change or denying Jumbao Shore Up because that's the only move that synergizes with sand. Now, I don't disagree that non-Clangorous Soul routes are viable paths to take; I'm actually kinda divided on which route is best. However, discrediting Clangorous Soul because it is "unsatisfying" is wrong. Sometimes, the boring path is the right path (not that Clangorous Soul is boring, a notion I really don't understand for a wild omni-boost set-up move that takes your health and is only on one mon that doesn't even use the move that well... come on, man). Just because you don't think something is exciting doesn't mean it's wrong; try to stay objective.

 

[Amamama]

Firstly, Clangorous Soul is the one move that essentially mandates the use of Throat Spray for a special attacker.

At this point this is absolutely what we need. We have tried to find ways forward, that make better use of the unique qualities of Throat Spray, but the core of CAP 34 we have decided on with every step we took until now mandates to add a strong incentive to run Throat Spray, because neither our typing and much less our ability do so.
As it stands Clangorous Soul is a necessity to fulfill concept. Do I wish we had other options? Of course. But there’s a point in some processes there’s a point where you need to commit to the easy way out, bc there’s just no other way out to fulfill concept.

Furthermore, as we've chosen to make use of Throat Spray, I would prefer to showcase the unique benefits of this unusual item.

I would have preferred this as well, but yes at this point I don’t trust us to thread the needle of incentivizing Spray without Clangorous Soul, given that community decisions put us in this position in the first place, where we either thread the needle or take the easy way out. Democratic decisions often fail, when confronted with extremes. And I do believe that any build attempting to work only with Clanging Scales will both be extremely limited to something very specific and extreme as far as stats etc go.

CAP34's role will be primarily that of a lategame sweeper. There are therefore very few circumstances in which CAP34 will not be able to check Hemogoblin if needed, with or without HDB.

This is something that we have decided on and are building towards, but as things go we can only try and incentivize this. These kind of creations can take on a life of their own. This is another reason, I think Clangorous Soul is inevitable. It is the move that ensures we are a sweeper, whereas trying to go with Clanging Scales might end up as a Breaker or Pivot, that doesn’t run Spray.

Without Clangorous Soul, CAP34 would not need great natural special attack. It would need to have enough power to claim key KOs at +1, but not while unboosted. This should be fairly elementary for our community.

This might be true idk, but I find it hard to see value in a Mon as a cleaner, that is gonna struggle to even 2hko bulky mons at +1 and can’t outspeed boosted mons and booster energy mons late game.
And the faster and stronger the natural build is the more likely a hit and run tactic becomes. The bulkier the build is the better this Mon becomes as a pivot. Finding a stat spread that is good with throat spray and not better with another item is going to be like looking for the needle in a haystack.

 

[mark6870]

I was very opposed to soul at the beginning of the process, but go go gadget omniboost has grown on me somewhat.
Firstly, it's not brainless like I originally thought. Heightened defenses seem big but when you're at 67% HP, you still have to be careful about when and where you choose to set up.
I also thought we would end up being Kommo'o the Second because we're just setting up with the same move, but we've already differentiated ourselves greatly with our threats list. Changing our matchup vs hemo and venom alone already flips the script and sets us apart from Kommo'o. In fact, Kommo'o is valuable here because we can analyze its shortcomings and find ways around them (which we already have with typing.)
None of the options listed in typing and ability were my first, second, or even third choices but hey what we got seems kinda alrite so far idk but at this point it does seem like clangorous soul is the real push we need to turn this into a throat spray sweeper. there is a dark recess of my mind where CAP34 is an electric fighting type but you cant expect things to just go your way in a community project like this

That being said, I wanna hear about non soul options because those still intrigue me. I can't really think of options that will not want to run the Actual Good Items over throat spray but that doesn't mean they dont exist.

 

[Scepticskep]

1- We have our typing, we have a general idea of our role, and we have a preliminary list of build-around, defining sound moves from the original Defining Moves stage of the project. What other types of moves facilitate what we are trying to do here? What helps us achieve our goals of being a strong user of Throat Spray outside of what we already know? Are there sound moves that fill these relevant roles?

To utilize our sweeping potential best, coverage is definitely what we need to focus on, specifically Fire and Water to deal with Steel and Ground respectively. I actually think our coverage options shouldn't focus entirely entirely a sound-based moveset. My reasoning for this is that before we proc Throat Spray, we wouldn't be dealing significant damage with our non-STAB coverage moves. While we should still discuss sound-based moves, I don't think CAP 34 would benefit from using up Throat Spray early with a non STAB attack. Not to mention, while it's not a common move, Throat Chop has the potential to shut down 34's momentum if we only provide sound-based coverage moves.
We definitely have some sound moves that can fit well as coverage, such as Sparkling Aria, but outside of that I'd suggest looking towards some generally standard and reliable Fire and Water coverage.

 

[quziel]

Fire, Water, and Fighting are probably the three most important coverage typings for us to consider. Every single one of them hits several prominent Steel types, while also missing out on at least one major steel. Fire is helpless into Heatran, Water is mediocre into Kingambit and Ghold, though helps us out a bunch vs Ting Lu, and Fighting is completely helpless into Gholdengo, though again helps us a bit vs Ting Lu (weaker BP on average). I don't have a strong preference among these, they just decide what mons hard wall / defensively check us.

Fire: Ting Lu + Heatran
Water: Gholdengo + Kingambit
Fighting: Gholdengo (Aura Sphere + Focus Blast suck)

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I am in favor of basically committing to Clanging Soul atm. I think trying to leave space open for non-Clanging builds during the stat process would probably leave us in a fairly difficult place. Franky I am not convinced by non-Clanging builds given our choice of anti-priority abiltiy, and feel that trying to find an appropriate BSR penalty for Clanging Soul would be not worth the effort.

 

[Rabia]

Alright! Happy to be back in Defining Moves and ready to get us going on this stage again. Let's get right into the questions:

1- We have our typing, we have a general idea of our role, and we have a preliminary list of build-around, defining sound moves from the original Defining Moves stage of the project. What other types of moves facilitate what we are trying to do here? What helps us achieve our goals of being a strong user of Throat Spray outside of what we already know? Are there sound moves that fill these relevant roles?

2- How much support do we need from our other moves to find success in our role? What holes in our build do we need to patch, and what can be done specifically here as compared to Stats?

3- In contrast to the first question, what actively hurts us? What types of moves detract from Throat Spray, and what don't help us in what roles we're looking to fulfil?

4- We have also just selected the priority-blocking abilities as our primary ability option. Does anything stand out as a particularly good fit alongside our ability? How important is the synergy between our moveset and this particular ability?


I want to focus on these questions more generally at first (which I'm sure comes as a shock to all of you). Feel free to use specific moves as examples of these sort of classes and types of moves, but don't push too hard for any specific moves yet. There will be plenty of time in this stage to do so, and I think getting a clearer focus on what works well and what doesn't with the various pieces of our kit so far will help set us up for a really excellent stage. Excited to be hearing from everyone!

hi guys RABIA is back

1. Coverage is obviously the biggest need here. So long as Steel-types (particularly the godly ones like Equilibra and Kingambit) are around, some way to meaningfully threaten them is needed. Fire / Fighting / Water all stand out as immediately useful, with the latter two helping against Heatran and Gliscor to varying degrees of success.

2. I mean really I just harken back to point 1. here with how coverage is really useful. There are A LOT of Steel-types that see high, consistent usage, so being able to beat them is really relevant. It's key to remember that we only get one shot with Throat Spray's boost, and so if any of el gambito, mr scales, or Gholdengo-to the polls can come in and say "lol nice try but I still beat you"... then I think the concept risks falling flat.

3. I think any Special Attack-boosting setup move should be avoided. Clangerous Soul I'm cool with because it works alongside Throat Spray, but Nasty Plot, Calm Mind, Quiver Dance, etc. should all be avoided because they'd run the risk of completely neutralizing the concept.

4. I think priority-ignoring abilities end up making Speed-boosting moves and priority attacks of our own a bit less important. Feels weird to say this because Tsareena ends up being a great wallbreaker in large part due to Rapid Spin Speed boosts, but I think allocating strength elsewhere is pretty practical here.

 

[a fairy]

1- We have our typing, we have a general idea of our role, and we have a preliminary list of build-around, defining sound moves from the original Defining Moves stage of the project. What other types of moves facilitate what we are trying to do here? What helps us achieve our goals of being a strong user of Throat Spray outside of what we already know? Are there sound moves that fill these relevant roles?

I wanna sing the song of Noble Roar again, if I'm allowed! Noble Roar provides us a more niche, secondary means of activating Throat Spray and providing some mind games. The Dragon-type sound moves are good, but I think that a third, somewhat distinct method of activating Throat Spray would be cool.

If trying to shoe-horn in another sound move isn't it, then: Can we talk about healing moves? If we omniboost, then it would be interesting I think to figure whether the 'mon can justify bringing along that level of longevity. My response to 2 (written, of course, before this) talks about coverage, which I think would make an interesting balance for CAP34s relying on the omniboost to activate Throat Spray. I think it'd be beneficial, limiting your movepool to just 2 damage options in exchange for longevity. Feels like it'd open up a lot of opportunity in variety of building.

2- How much support do we need from our other moves to find success in our role? What holes in our build do we need to patch, and what can be done specifically here as compared to Stats?

Coverage is very important. Poison and Dragon don't actually hit a lot for super-effective, so we'll likely see a fair bit of walls wandering in and heal-stalling us and our boosted neutral/resisted moves, I suspect. Having useful coverage to hit off a boosted stat in order to strongly pressure the walls that wouldn't mind a neutral STAB hit. Whether this is like, big hitters like Hydro Pump or decent damage in the form of Ice Beam, or something else entirely, I think we need to put genuine thought into ensuring that our 'mon isn't stymied the moment a wall with Recover or Roost steps into the battlefield.

3- In contrast to the first question, what actively hurts us? What types of moves detract from Throat Spray, and what don't help us in what roles we're looking to fulfil?

We should not have boosting moves. Providing us with a means of boosting stats will encourage deviation from Throat Spray. I think this even extends as far as like, Agility or Psych Up. I also think that something like Stored Power or Power Trip is not good for us, as it will pressure us more towards something like Weakness Policy or a patch-up for the omniboost primary move (that I forget the name of...).

Certain switch-focused moves, like U-Turn or Parting Shot, also encourage playstyles that don't match Throat Spray very well, and would as a result would encourage other item options being considered. Let's not risk it.

[Didn't answer Q4 because I didn't have a good answer/nothing came to mind!]

 

[Agile Turtle]

At this point this is absolutely what we need. We have tried to find ways forward, that make better use of the unique qualities of Throat Spray, but the core of CAP 34 we have decided on with every step we took until now mandates to add a strong incentive to run Throat Spray, because neither our typing and much less our ability do so.

This post fully encapsulates how I feel about clangorous soul. We've voted in ways that I think warrant clangorous soul more and more. I think it's crucial to determine whether we are using clangorous soul or not before getting into the stats stage.

2- How much support do we need from our other moves to find success in our role? What holes in our build do we need to patch, and what can be done specifically here as compared to Stats?

3- In contrast to the first question, what actively hurts us? What types of moves detract from Throat Spray, and what don't help us in what roles we're looking to fulfil?

Coverage in general is necessary, and this STAB combo honestly wants 4 attacks if it could have it. That's the only thing that could sway us away from clangorous soul at this point. But I honestly think we can get a lot more mileage out of +2 and less than perfect coverage.

I ultimately don't think the mon really wants to do anything other than attack/setup with clangorous soul and start attacking. Some status moves like spikes or toxic could help it to wear down incoming checks to help set up the lategame clean, but I honestly see a lot of status moves as a distraction/potentially turning the mon into one that doesn't carry throat spray.

4- We have also just selected the priority-blocking abilities as our primary ability option. Does anything stand out as a particularly good fit alongside our ability? How important is the synergy between our moveset and this particular ability?

There's of course good synergy with having any form of speed control. I've seen farigiraf used with throat spray/armor tail and speed control through either agility or trick room. Cool in concept, from what I've seen however, the set and its variants (including weakness policy), are a little too turn inefficient and they often didn't pull their weight for the team. With that said, I really don't think any kind of set up besides clangorous soul is a smart direction for us to take.

 

[AzothBend]

1- We have our typing, we have a general idea of our role, and we have a preliminary list of build-around, defining sound moves from the original Defining Moves stage of the project. What other types of moves facilitate what we are trying to do here? What helps us achieve our goals of being a strong user of Throat Spray outside of what we already know? Are there sound moves that fill these relevant roles?

There are two points where we can bolster the use of Throat Spray:
1. A strong, but not necessarily wide, coverage movepool.
2. A potential third activation method beyond the two Dragon-type sound-based moves on which we have decided.
Specifics for both points are listed in the following block.

2- How much support do we need from our other moves to find success in our role? What holes in our build do we need to patch, and what can be done specifically here as compared to Stats?

As has been mentioned by nearly everyone, the biggest glaring weakness of CAP 34 is its ability to hit bulky Steel and Ground-types. Both severely limit our sweeping potential. The former resists both of our STAB. The latter resists our Poison STAB and can threaten its own Ground STAB in return; this is especially true when both Clanging Scales and Clangorous Soul require some defensive sacrifice. To that end, Fire and Water-type coverage seems prudent. Both have viable sound-based options, though we rightfully nixed the Fire-type.
Others have mentioned Fighting as another strong candidate. I think it's in a second tier alongside other coverage types like Ground, Ice, and Psychic. These would be more targeted coverage against specific threats than the more general Fire and Water.

3- In contrast to the first question, what actively hurts us? What types of moves detract from Throat Spray, and what don't help us in what roles we're looking to fulfil?

To really push Throat Spray as the primary item, CAP 34 will likely require severe moveset restrictions, specifically targeting set-up moves. Special Attack-boosting moves particularly should be avoided. There's maybe an argument for Speed-boosting moves depending on how the stats discussion pans out.
The big elephant in the room here is Clangorous Soul. I'm still wary of it generally, but like others have mentioned, we seem to be inevitablely barreling towards it with each succesive step. We absolutely need to establish in this stage whether or not CAP 34 will be using it.

4- We have also just selected the priority-blocking abilities as our primary ability option. Does anything stand out as a particularly good fit alongside our ability? How important is the synergy between our moveset and this particular ability?

There is not much room for synergy with our ability and movepool. If anything, our chosen ability helps to mitigate some of the aforementioned defensive sacrifices of the Dragon-type sound-based moves. More generally, it supports our sweeper role and should not greatly impact movepool.

 

[Explosion Badger]

1- We have our typing, we have a general idea of our role, and we have a preliminary list of build-around, defining sound moves from the original Defining Moves stage of the project. What other types of moves facilitate what we are trying to do here? What helps us achieve our goals of being a strong user of Throat Spray outside of what we already know? Are there sound moves that fill these relevant roles?

2- How much support do we need from our other moves to find success in our role? What holes in our build do we need to patch, and what can be done specifically here as compared to Stats?

3- In contrast to the first question, what actively hurts us? What types of moves detract from Throat Spray, and what don't help us in what roles we're looking to fulfil?

4- We have also just selected the priority-blocking abilities as our primary ability option. Does anything stand out as a particularly good fit alongside our ability? How important is the synergy between our moveset and this particular ability?

1) Throat Spray is an item designed for sweeps, simple as that, and with this in mind, moves with strong damage output and minimal offensive setbacks are key for this Pokémon to thrive. As Throat Spray is a consumable item, the last thing that 34 wants to have is a move that gets rid of its precious SpAtk boost. However, because that boost is nothing amazing, it also needs to make sure that the moves it uses have enough power to turn that boost into a threat. There's one move in particular that I feel fits the criteria well, but I'll wait until question 4 to mention it.

2) For now, we need moves that help 34 patch up its coverage. Dragon and Poison struggles to hit Steel types in particular, and with the advent of a certain steel type in gen 9, Strong coverage that beats steel types should be an absolute necessity in order to prevent 34 from becoming counterswept.

3) Like I said in question 1, any move that essentially wastes our Throat Spray really shouldn't be considered for this Pokémon. Moves that are too weak for one boost would prefer being able to set up multiple times, and moves that lower our SpAtk prefer items that let us switch out over and over again. And of course, setup other than Throat Spray and Clangrorous Soul shouldn't be considered.

4) While Clangorous Soul is the move that most people are looking towards I want to be in the group of people that at least points out the synergy between our ability and Clanging Scales. Being able to deny priority attacks means that Clanging Scales Defense drop becomes a lot more palatable, as we no longer need to fear the dangerous priority that could end our sweep with -1 defense or more. Along with this, Clanging Scales sits as a perfect STAB move for CAP 34 to abuse, with its immense 110 base power and lack of an offensive drawback easily pushing it to become dangerous after Throat Spray is activated. Finally, while it's worth considering both Clangrorous Soul and Clanging Scales in the same toolkit, I feel that Clanging Scales should at least be considered as it's own option, as it gives 34 more freedom in its movepool options while still giving it a power move to abuse during a sweep.

 

[SHSP]

Apologies for the bit of the delay; I've picked a horrible week to have a cold! Thankfully, I've been feeling better and reading through the great discussion so far, and here are some of the big takeaways that I could spot:

Coverage is King: Multiple posts have pointed out coverage as probably the most important thing to the success of our build. Steels in particular give us fits as-is, leading to a focus on typings like Fire, Fighting and Water coverage. Some have also pointed out more attempts to fit neutral coverage would be a similarly effective fit.

As for what doesn't fit, it's clear that public enemy #1 here is anything boosting related (that isn't Clangorous Soul, but more on that later). Boosting moves give us a lot of reasons to look away from Throat Spray and lessen the item's impact overall, specifically special attack boosts. There's an argument for something like Agility that purely effects Speed, but even then that seems particularly sketchy. Other things that seem to be worth avoiding are pivoting moves, as they inherently have an anti-synergy with Throat Spray.

When it comes to Clangorous Soul, it feels like the majority of the community is behind it as our primary option. Though I wouldn't go as far as some in the thread have and call it "essential," I am of like mind here, and I'm sold on including it in our defining moves, but I want to hear from the community if it should be Required or Optional.

With these takeaways in mind, I want to open the floor to discussion of moves themselves in more detail. What coverage types and specific moves work best? What additional moves raise our floor? Its time to discuss and decide what we're going to be looking at within the stats stage; I'm going to give some time before I jump back in and highlight some of what works best that gets suggested. Thanks again for the great discussion so far, and I'm looking forward to more! (also, go huskies)

 

[Explosion Badger]

I want to fight against Clangrorous Soul being considered required. While it's an easy route to pick in terms of ensuring Throat Spray, making it required takes away one of the most interesting factors of the item: that being, the ability to use an attacking move as setup and the benefits that come with this, such as more flexible moveset options and the ability to threaten damage even while setting up. While Clangorous Soul has a very strong chance of ensuring Throat Spray, it doesn't particularly demonstrate how the item differs from other more conventional options.

 

[Zetalz]

When it comes to Clangorous Soul, it feels like the majority of the community is behind it as our primary option. Though I wouldn't go as far as some in the thread have and call it "essential," I am of like mind here, and I'm sold on including it in our defining moves, but I want to hear from the community if it should be Required or Optional.

Clang Soul should absolutely be labeled as Required for this process. I understand people like having options available to them for differing builds during stats, but when it comes to a move that has such dramatic implications for stat limits it becomes very tricky very quickly to try and cater to differing builds while keeping Soul in mind as an optional. Not to say it's impossible, mind you, far from, but here it's a headache on an already complex stage that I'd rather not exacerbate.

 

[lovepokeee]

this looks good

 

[Earthflax]

A lot of the situation with Soul is the routes that its presence opens and closes; I wouldn't go as far as to say that a Defining Moves list would be completely different depending on the situation with Soul, but it would change a lot. Personally, I believe Soul should be required and this was pretty much decided when we voted Dazzling as our ability; it is just exceedingly difficult to really hone in on both concept and meta feasibility with what we have right now without Soul. Notice how I did not say it was impossible, and I think other routes absolutely can and should be explored, but Clangorous Soul should absolutely be the central component of our Defining Moves and it's not worth trying to accommodate other routes to a degree which will cause undue impact on Stats and other future stages.

Fire, Fighting, and Water coverage all work for this mon and I'll defer to what quz said earlier on those. Fighting coverage is difficult because we will be special so the Focus Blast/Aura Sphere question will need to be asked if that is our type of choice. Fire is relatively straightforward (provided Torch Song is off the table, obviously), and as for Water coverage I'm not sure whether to opt for more traditional coverage or Sparkling Aria. Aria would essentially necessitate setup in order to use it as coverage, so currently I'd lean more towards traditional Water coverage in the vein of Surf, but there could be something to be said about how preventing the use of coverage until setup starts, although I don't see it at the moment.

I won't really get into floor-raisers as I don't really have much to say but I'll shamelessly plug Metal Sound real quick; depending on stat spread it could be a cheese good option to force walls out and create hard decisions regarding letting squishies take hits. Auburn is winning it all, and Duke are bums. God bless Duquesne.

 

[mark6870]

So our coverage is between fire, fighting,and water. Out of these, fighting is the most enticing in paper for hitting gambit for 4x, as well as ting lu and Libra. However, our coverage is limited to either a really inaccurate move or a mildly weak move. Water coverage forgoes hitting Gambit for SE (bad) for having a more accurate almost equally powerful move in Hydro Pump which hits Libra and Ting Lu for SE. Fire exchanges hitting Ting Lu for being able to whack Gambit and Libra more accurately as well as hitting the rarer-but-still-checks-us Corviknight. It's between Fire and Fighting coverage for me.

I want to hear from the community if it should be Required or Optional.

While I do believe we will very likely end up with Soul, it should still be Optional if the TL can figure out how much of a BSR reduction Soul sets should receive. If someone can cook up a stat spread that doesn't need soul yet still wants to use Throat Spray they should be encouraged to share it.

 

[viol and bass]

Make it optional. Dropping Clangorous allows us to make a frail, attacking-move-as-setup, priority immune, balls to the wall offensive monster, which is a way more honest expression of the choices we've made thus far than Clangorous Soul would ever allow in my opinion. At least give people the option. I understand Clangorous is a safer route, but I don't think sacrificing depth for a bit more safety is worth it. Genuinely, which route is a more interesting expression of the item we based this project around?

Correspondingly, I think Sparkling Aria is our most interesting coverage move, but obviously it would be dropped with Clangorous Soul in favor of standard high-power fire, water, or fighting coverage. Back to the depth thing. My two cents

 

[Rabia]

When it comes to Clangorous Soul, it feels like the majority of the community is behind it as our primary option. Though I wouldn't go as far as some in the thread have and call it "essential," I am of like mind here, and I'm sold on including it in our defining moves, but I want to hear from the community if it should be Required or Optional.

With these takeaways in mind, I want to open the floor to discussion of moves themselves in more detail. What coverage types and specific moves work best? What additional moves raise our floor? Its time to discuss and decide what we're going to be looking at within the stats stage; I'm going to give some time before I jump back in and highlight some of what works best that gets suggested. Thanks again for the great discussion so far, and I'm looking forward to more! (also, go huskies)

Clangerous Soul should be required. I think the impact it has on future stats wrt power allocation is too great to ignore, and making it an assumed move should ease how much thinking is actually needed of us going forward.

Like I mentioned in my original post, I like Fire, Fighting, and Water for coverage types. The former two give good coverage against the Steel-types en masse, while the latter would provide more of a general coverage demon across the board and a nice Terastallizing option for defensive purposes thanks to Water's lack of overlapping weaknesses with our Dragon / Poison typing.

If Clangerous Soul is NOT required, then I think moves like Torch Song (my b if this move is banned entirely I legit am forgetting where the thread is) and Sparkling Aria are cute coverage options that permit the activation of Throat Spray. Boomburst, although not abiding by my listed coverage types, would work similarly.

If Clangerous Soul IS required, then I think we can keep it simple with moves like Flamethrower, Focus Blast, and Hydro Pump. I think options like Lava Plume and Scald could work as weaker alternatives, but I don't find a great need to include them unless utility sets are deemed worthwhile? Dedicating into a sweeper niche seems more fruitful.

 

[boo836]

Clangorous Soul shouldn't be required at all lol, shoehorning 34 into an omniboost sweeper is drastically limiting and completely ignores more balanced builds that should otherwise be on the table.

It's strange to write off boosting moves (especially Speed) when they don't disincentivise Throat Spray at all. Hell, Toxtricity loves running Shift Gear Throat Spray, which gets me to my last point that boosting status moves boosting damaging moves are apples and oranges. Being able to boost and then next turn firmly establish your win condition while attacking is extremely powerful, and Throat Spray functionally does that as a consumable. Usually boosting on offense means something may have to be sacrificed, in this case the sacrifice boosts SpAtt as potentially high as a +3.