CAP 35 - Part 3 - Typing Discussion

[Superperson00]

Hi all, thanks for your patience with me:

The idea of what a contradiction means really lies in the resistances and weaknesses; mainly, their chemistry with one another. Out the rip, it seems pretty unanimous that our typing should possess at least some tangible positive qualities, and I couldn't agree more. I think it's very telling that defensive Pokemon with typings that possess little to no redeeming qualities defensively are niche at best, and generally bad at worst. While we could theoretically pursue this angle, it would mean turning up the dial on just about everything else to compensate, which doesn't really make for an engaging or intuitive process imo. It's important to recall that this concept focuses on the idea of a contradiction as opposed to a fundamental setback, which by definition doesn't mean that what typing we end up having is going to be bad, but moreso go against the grain of what makes a defensive profile generically good. In this regard it can be easy to try and look into compensation as a means to build a viable CAP instead of making every part of it function together as a working system, and I am personally not content taking a direction like this with our typing. Regardless of the specific contradiction we take, I will at this time be putting entirely bad defensive typings on the backburner and will likely not be considering them unless there's a groundbreaking argument brought up before we enter suggestions. If this applies to you, please make yourself heard!

Speaking of which, in the last part of this discussion, a really fascinating and strong point regarding how we would want to have a typing with defensive qualities that we would actively enjoy keeping was brought up, given the caveat of Tera. I think this was a really astute point and one I believe we should lean into as we determine our typing, as a Pokemon with a typing that holds more drawbacks than positives is more likely to try and use Tera as an escape route and leverage its other powerful qualities (such as Garganacl). We should try to think about leaning into a defensive niche and work with what our typing brings to the table by leaning into it with our build, as opposed to trying to seeing our weaknesses as something to try and escape from.

The last part of my initial questions explored STAB moves and their relationship to this contradiction. In general it seems having a competent STAB is something people aren't really against -- unsurprisingly given the sensus on the nature of a typing contradiction -- and even if they were, we don't need STAB moves to succeed as a wall so long as we have tools to exert pressure in one way or another. I personally think having a nice STAB move is a nice bonus that could incentivize going with a given typing, especially if it has utility packed in. But, above all else it's really down to the utility we possess and how we manage to win the war of attrition into our desired targets; we do not need a dedicated, good STAB move for this purpose.

The primary situation I see now is that there's a relative divide as to the specific contradiction style we should lean into: many resistances with many weaknesses as a cost, and few weaknesses with a few resistances as a cost. In general, I don't actually see this as much of a problem, because I am not opposed to typing suggestions that have one or the other; both are equally valid and engaging in what they offer and I think are extremely valid routes to take with our contradiction. Before we dive into suggestions, though, I want to ask a few more questions so we can cover our bases as to what these two main contradictions have in store for us as we continue into the process. Not necessarily to force a focus into one direction or another, but to make suggestions more informed and deliberate.

--

Contradiction 1: Holder of Many

When a Pokemon has many resistances and many weaknesses, those weaknesses often end up being a reason that the defensive utility of its typing is rendered down as a result of coverage moves often undermining resistances. As such, there is a serious concession to be made about the specific Pokemon we will be able to check, since if we hold weaknesses to common coverage typings, we lose our ability to operate as a wall into a larger range of Pokemon we would be able to check on paper. So, typing suggestions need to be very focused and deliberate with this contradiction.

1: Is the weakness profile something we need to build around, as to minimize the range of Pokemon we want to check that are able to break through us? Or, should we lean more into a set of resistances being so potent that these weaknesses are harder to exploit due to the defensive niche of our typing accomplishing the role we want it to? Why?

2: Are certain offensive types more manageable as weaknesses than others? If so, how and why? How can we use this knowledge to our advantage in designating our typing niche?

3: Are there any typing weaknesses and resistances that, when in tandem, would undermine our specialized defensive profile in practice to a serious extent? For instance, having a U-turn or Knock Off weakness when holding a Water- or Ground-type resistance, due to the common users of these moves.

4: A point made regarding this contradiction is that hazards are a very major caveat that will impact our effective bulk, as they will always be able to break us down throughout the game; this is obviously no issue with Heavy-Duty Boots, the most common item for walls in the game, but the issue stands that moves like Knock Off are going to make these kinds of weaknesses stand out. How significant is having a resilience into Stealth Rock, and how might having more leverage in our item choice and into Knock Off impact our ability to improve the niche given by our typing's many resistances?:

Contradiction 2: Holder of Few

Conversely, a typing that's a holder of few resistances and weaknesses provides many more options since they all have effectively a very similar defensive profile with some deviation lent by given weaknesses and resistances. This improves typing suggestion flexibility a lot, but it's far harder to lean into a unique defensive niche when your resistances are few and far between.

1: We established earlier that having a good STAB move is nice, but not necessary. However, for this contradiction it's arguably a bit more needed as a way to carve out a unique niche when weaknesses aren't as much of an option. Do you think this is true? Why or why not?

2a: Since this contradiction is harder to build a unique defensive profile around, we need to play into whatever resistances we do have. Are there any type resistances or immunities that, by themselves, would be possibly significant enough to help carve out a niche for this contradiction?

2b: Although this contradiction comes with fewer resistances, it does also come with fewer weaknesses. This is a pretty nice caveat, but in a similar vein to the above question, are there any specific type weaknesses that would be significant enough to make a typing not worth serious consideration? How about when 4x weaknesses enter the equation?

3: Are there any typing weaknesses and resistances that, when in tandem, would undermine our widely applicable defensive profile in practice to a serious extent? For instance, having a U-turn or Knock Off weakness when holding a Water- or Ground-type resistance, due to the common users of these moves.

4: In a similar vein to the previous contradiction, this route would also have a shaky relationship with hazards. Without many resistances, we most likely come packed with a Stealth Rock and Spikes neutrality, which could also undercut our bulk to a serious extent since taking neutral hits is already a taller order for a wall of this design. How significant is having a resilience into Stealth Rock when having this contradiction, and how might having more leverage in our item choice and into Knock Off impact our ability to improve our defensive profile's flexibility into a wider range of matchups?

--

Because this is a bit less defining stage of questions, I'm going to give this batch about 48 hours. Once we're done, I will be sure to aggregate the common sensi around these contradictions to help inform suggestions, and we'll get started with them proper!

Are certain offensive types more manageable as weaknesses than others? If so, how and why? How can we use this knowledge to our advantage in designating our typing niche?

We know that types whose movesets lean predominantly into the physical, such as Fighting and Ground, are especially more vulnerable to status as compared to a Water or Psychic type given the greater stakes associated with Burn and occasionally Paralysis. To lean into this further, utility moves share the same characteristic - no one wants to Rapid Spin or U-Turn into a Flame Body mon.

Following Garganacl’s theme of being punishing its would-be counters of Water and Steel through Salt Cure, types that are especially vulnerable to contact could play an interesting niche if they have a mechanism able to punish the opponent back. Options that comes to mind are mono Dark, or perhaps dual Psychic/Electric; both of these seem invitational to traditional switch ins like Great Tusk, Scizor, or Urshifu-Single for their ability to capitalise on each type’s vulnerability to pivoting moves and common physical STAB.

I’m finding myself particularly drawn to punishing physical attackers given the particularity of our dilemma here. As mentioned before, a fire type that’s magically able to switch into water types isn’t a unique nor creative way to establish a wall. However, traditional methods to bypass the type weakness barrier have tended to lean towards hard-counter abilities: Storm Drain, Dry Skin, Volt Absorb, Flash Fire, Levitate and many other similar iterations of the same get-out-of-jail-free card already exist in the meta. What sets Garg apart from these is its unique style of punishing the opponent back, rather than switching in safely for free.

 

[Project_Mars]

Contradiction 1:
1: Is the weakness profile something we need to build around, as to minimize the range of Pokemon we want to check that are able to break through us? Or, should we lean more into a set of resistances being so potent that these weaknesses are harder to exploit due to the defensive niche of our typing accomplishing the role we want it to? Why?

Probably the latter. I feel like the best path to success with this CAP would be to give it a set of clear, and probably fairly easy to exploit, weaknesses that is balanced by having some key resistances/immunities (and hopefully a few good other benefits) that can be leveraged to make it work effectively.

2: Are certain offensive types more manageable as weaknesses than others? If so, how and why? How can we use this knowledge to our advantage in designating our typing niche?

Offensive Types where another typing is immune to them (i.e. Ground and Electric, Normal and Ghost (and vice versa)) are more managable as weaknesses in general because of that fact, as well as ones that have abilities that also provide immunities, albeit to a lesser extent. This is because those typings can do a lot towards stopping an offensive threat from running away with the game simply by existing. This means that we could use a typing with an immunity to help give this CAP something to work with, especially since a few of the types with immunities also have some clear and exploitable weaknesses to also work with (i.e. Ground is weak to Grass, Water and Ice which are all 3 common attack types)

4. How significant is having a resilience into Stealth Rock when having this contradiction, and how might having more leverage in our item choice and into Knock Off impact our ability to improve our defensive profile's flexibility into a wider range of matchups?

Having a resistance, or even a neutrality, to Stealth Rock would improve item choice simply by reducing the need to slap HDB to just ignore the hazards... provided it doesn't also have Unaware. This is also something that should be consider when picking the typing as some of the types that resist Rock also have weaknesses to a few common types. (i.e. Ground is weak to Water, Ice and Grass) Resisting Dark is neat and would mitigate some incoming damage, however I feel like the move would get clicked regardless since losing an item can cripple a wall.

Contradiction 2:
1. I do agree with that sentiment, but I am not sure how effective it would be as I am a bit worried that it could make this too narrow in scope to break the contradiction.

2a. Water, Poison and Ground seem like significant typings to resist or be immune to in the current meta and it doesn't seem like too bad a list. Fire, Fairy and Electric are also three other significant typings that likely will never fall out of style.

2b. Having 2 or more 4x weaknesses to any combination of typings would be enough to sink anything without the few resistances being really good or without one of those weaknesses being patched up by an ability. Beyond that being 2x weak to anything listed in answer 2a in particular seems like they would be more of a pain than other typings.

4. Having fewer resists to fall back on means that resisting Rocks and Knock Off would be more valuable since you're likely overall taking more damage in general than a 'mon with more resists and weaknesses.

 

[a fairy]

Will focus on the second set of questions, as it's the one I am primarily motivated by and I'm not feeling well enough to answer more questions. Sorry. That's also why some of these questions will be a bit shorter.

1: We established earlier that having a good STAB move is nice, but not necessary. However, for this contradiction it's arguably a bit more needed as a way to carve out a unique niche when weaknesses aren't as much of an option. Do you think this is true? Why or why not?

I don't think a good STAB is the necessary niche for this 'mon. While I don't necessarily know what it will be, it doesn't feel necessary to try and juggle fitting in both a typing contradiction for the wall while also using the typing phase to ensure that there's a unique niche for use. I'd rather be able to focus on a typing contradiction and what it means to be a wall without the itch of "well how is this thing going to get KOes" - it's a wall, it shouldn't necessarily need to.

2a: Since this contradiction is harder to build a unique defensive profile around, we need to play into whatever resistances we do have. Are there any type resistances or immunities that, by themselves, would be possibly significant enough to help carve out a niche for this contradiction?

This answer has changed over the generations. Some types, like Ground or Electric or Rock (via Stealth Rock), have historically always been beneficial types to resist or be outright immune to if possible. However, other types, like Normal, Psychic, and arguably Fighting, have seen their offensive threat drop significantly, and as such the benefit to resisting (or being immune) to those types has become more of an afterthought than a major selling point.

I would say that Ground, Electric, Ice, Fire, and Fairy strike me as being good shots at types that will maintain some level of large competitive relevance long-term, when it comes to things like powerful STABs and coverage. All have very strong STAB options, while also maintaining a respectable list of coverage options often present on other Pokemon. Being immune to say, Ground or Electric, grants a large amount of opportunities against Earthquakes and Earth Powers, Volt Switches and Thunderbolts, that even an otherwise resistance-light type lineup could make significant use of.

2b: Although this contradiction comes with fewer resistances, it does also come with fewer weaknesses. This is a pretty nice caveat, but in a similar vein to the above question, are there any specific type weaknesses that would be significant enough to make a typing not worth serious consideration? How about when 4x weaknesses enter the equation?

Rock and Electric, more-so than the types I mentioned already, are rough types to be weak to. Thunderbolt is a super common move that has amazing distribution, showing up as coverage for many Pokemon. Volt Switch has become arguably the most popular switching move. Though, it is worth mentioning that on the physical side, Electric struggles a fair bit more with access and consistency I feel like? Rock exists and Stealth Rock joins Stone Edge and Power Gem as things that being weak to kinda really blows. There are a mere 7 OU Pokemon with Rock weaknesses, and another 15 not ranked OU that have OU analyses or sets onsite. That's out of over 100 Pokemon. 'mons hate having Rock weaknesses.

Additionally, for our generation, being weak to Dark (Kingambit) or Dragon (Dragapult, Chuggalong) is maybe a bit of a pressure point. While few things are weak to either of these types, it's worth a consideration. The former is a Gen 9 new friend, but Dragon has never been a lightweight.

3: Are there any typing weaknesses and resistances that, when in tandem, would undermine our widely applicable defensive profile in practice to a serious extent? For instance, having a U-turn or Knock Off weakness when holding a Water- or Ground-type resistance, due to the common users of these moves.

This is a good question that I don't have a strong answer for. My old brain is screaming about Edgequake and Boltbeam, but how significant are those nowadays with how many new things exist out there? I'd hazard a guess and say that being weak to Psychic while resisting Fairy is maybe a bit silly, as those types feel pretty married together on a lot of Pokemon. Easy to throw Psyshock or Psychic Noise onto a Fairy-type Pokemon and call it coverage, though I'm not sure it works quite so well in reverse - how many Psychic types are freely able to run Fairy coverage? Are there even really notable offensive Psychic types? Hoopa, Deoxys, and Latias all feel like they don't count for some reason.

4: In a similar vein to the previous contradiction, this route would also have a shaky relationship with hazards. Without many resistances, we most likely come packed with a Stealth Rock and Spikes neutrality, which could also undercut our bulk to a serious extent since taking neutral hits is already a taller order for a wall of this design. How significant is having a resilience into Stealth Rock when having this contradiction, and how might having more leverage in our item choice and into Knock Off impact our ability to improve our defensive profile's flexibility into a wider range of matchups?

I literally can't stop mentioning Stealth Rock in any of my typing posts unfortunately, so it's obviously something I'm quite focused on. Frankly, I don't think we need a resliency to Stealth Rock as much as we need to avoid a weakness to it, though I recognize that by ceding damage to SR consistently, we need to patch that up somewhere else - not for any like, policy reason or whatever, but purely for viability. HDB helps, sure, but being locked into one item to avoid taking 20ish percent from hazards every time it wants to switch in sucks. I do think there are alternative strategies to combating a lack of resilience, but if we're being honest, a layer of Spikes and Stealth Rocks is gonna chew through anything that can't bypass it.

Pokemon like Blissey and Slowking-Galar and Alomamola run HDB nowadays, who are likely going to interact with hazards similarly to whatever our 'mon ends up looking like. Cinderace runs HDB nearly 80% of the time. It seems that our tradeoff might be a 'mon that can resist or disregard hazards, or a 'mon that is married to a set of Boots. I dunno what's preferred. There are definitely types that don't interact much w/ the type chart that resist Rock, such as Fighting or Ground, but those have their own questions and drawbacks.

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

Prioritizing the "Holder Of Many" questionnaire cause I still think that's the better direction to go

1.) Is the weakness profile something we need to build around, as to minimize the range of Pokemon we want to check that are able to break through us? Or, should we lean more into a set of resistances being so potent that these weaknesses are harder to exploit due to the defensive niche of our typing accomplishing the role we want it to? Why?

Now, this might be me lacking intel on the Gen 9 meta since it's been a hot minute since I last played, but I feel as though trying to reign in the checks that could break through would be a tall order to ask. It'd be easier, or so I reckon, to make the weaknesses that CAP35 winds up having harder to exploit. Tyranitar is a great example of how that could work. 100HP and 100 Sp. Def, although solid, doesn't look like it'd hold up to Rock/Dark's abundant weaknesses on the surface. However, with Sandstorm to boost its Sp. Def further (which it can do with its Sand Stream), TTar suddenly becomes much harder for special attackers to break, and it can even be EV'd to tank a Focus Blast if it has to.

2.) Are certain offensive types more manageable as weaknesses than others? If so, how and why? How can we use this knowledge to our advantage in designating our typing niche?

We'd probably want to keep as many weaknesses as we can on one side of the attacking spectrum. That will in turn ease the burden on stat submissions when we get to that stage, as we can decide to jack the physical tankiness way up or jack the special tankiness way up to compensate (if we really wanted to do that) and leave the other one to be relatively mid. But how do we tell which type would attack from which side, you may ask? That's where data come into play. Fighting-, Ground- and Rock-types primarily attack on the physical side, and Electric-, Ghost- and Fairy-types primarily attack from the special side. Of course, there are a few exceptions here and there; Stratagem was explicitly designed as a fast special attacking Rock-type, and Azumarill, a Fairy-type, has all the incentive in the world to attack from the physical side due to its Huge Power ability.

The most dangerous offensive types to be weak to overall, however, are types that are known to have strong attack(er)s on either side of the attacking spectrum. Fire and Dragon stand out as such types. Fire types have access to Heat Crash and Flare Blitz on the physical side (as well as Pyro Ball in Cinderace's case), and on the special side, you have random Fire Blasts to worry about. Dragon is in a similar vein, having a strong special nuke in Draco Meteor as well as powerful physical attacks in Outrage and Loaded Dice Scale Shot.

3.) Are there any typing weaknesses and resistances that, when in tandem, would undermine our specialized defensive profile in practice to a serious extent?

There are a few combos that come to the top of my head. Offensive Waters have been using Ice attacks as coverage ever since competitive Pokemon was a thing, and BoltBeam has been around for donkeys' years as well. And then there's the relationship between Rock and Ground; Rock-types want to have Ground coverage and Ground-types want to have Rock coverage. Psychics generally have the option to run Shadow Ball for opposing Psychics, and Fighting tends to run Knock Off for Psychics and Ghosts (among other reasons).

In summary, it'd be weird to resist Water but be weak to Ice or vice versa, resist Ice but be weak to Electric or vice versa, resist Ground but be weak to Rock or vice versa, resist Psychic but be weak to Ghost or vice versa, and resist Fighting but be weak to Dark or vice versa.

4.) How significant is having a resilience into Stealth Rock, and how might having more leverage in our item choice and into Knock Off impact our ability to improve the niche given by our typing's many resistances?

I honestly don't know if we should even bother worrying about CAP35's relation to Rocks. It doesn't make the other entry hazards any less of a pain in the ass to switch into; 3 layers of Spikes hurt like hell as well, Webs slow you down and T-Spikes poison you... or Toxic you with both layers down. As such, Boots might be a tempting option even for the pivots that do resist Rocks. As for freedom of item choice, it'd be nice to have it, but walls tend to gravitate towards Lefties and Boots anyway (or maybe Black Sludge if they're part Poison), so item choice typically doesn't matter as much.

 

[Amamama]

While I asked for trying to clearly define and list the types we are not going to look into, a convo about ice/flying, that happened on discord yesterday, made me realize, that making such a list is just non trivial and likely counterproductive.

Realistically obviously there are quite a few typings that just aren’t suitable to this concept. Both typings that are too solid and typings that are too crippling.
Finding a rule of which type fits in and which won’t is pretty hard. Simply going by numerical values ignores the intricacies of the metagame and teambuilding. Going by gut will lead to wildly different interpretations. Trying to analyze typings in the context of the meta and teambuilding, might lead us to types, which at face value don’t appear to be bad enough. And some typings which are numerically bad and actually don’t match up well into the meta or are hard to slot on teams might appear too good because of a Pokémon of that type performing crucial defensive roles in a another metagame.
So establishing a list of types before submissions are allowed is going to be contentious anyway and thus wouldn’t spare us any effort.

I still think that we must establish rules of what types we should ignore or should not be available for slating.

To me, there exist two stand out categories of bad typings that should not be considered for this concept.

1) Typings that do not create a realistic and functional defensive niche on their own, regardless of ability or stats:
This would include types
- which resists to specific Pokémon are cancelled by being weak to the other STAB or strong coverage of the mons that it is supposed to target. (I.e an grass/ice, that resists ground but is weak to steel and fighting moves and hates being knocked off)
- which have no or very few valuable resists and a lot of weaknesses (I.e ice/rock or ice/psychic)
- which have valuable resists, but will have trouble making progress against the Pokémon they can switch into (I.e pure Bug resisting ground and fighting types but having very few options to capitalize on that)/this last one is probably a bit contentious but I’m thinking of matchups like Blissey into gholdengo, where Blissey has to run a suboptimal CM set to be able to actually beat Dengo)

2)Typings, that create no synergies with existing high priority defensive mons or have synergies with one mon but compete with other similar mons (this is going deeper into teambuilding)
- typings which fall in a defensive niche, that is overcrowded (defensive water types/defensive ground types)
- typings which have one or two valuable resists, which are already provided by other top tier mons. (Rock/Fairy vs Water/Fairy for example)
- typings, which are so exploitable, that it becomes too hard to close the gaps within the defensive core (typings with multiple 4x weaknesses and few resists like bug/grass or ice/rock)

Regarding typings that are too good I think there are two very easy categories of:
- Types with numerically excellent resist chart. Honest, I’d be happy to include all types here, which have a score of less then 18 when you sum up their resists and weaknesses, which simply means they resist more types than they are weak to.

These types

Fairy/Steel

Flying/Steel

Dragon/Steel

Ghost/Steel

Steel/Water

Ghost/Normal

Steel

Dark/Ghost

Fighting/Steel

Bug/Steel

Ground/Steel

Poison/Steel

Dark/Poison

Electric/Steel

Normal/Steel

Fairy/Ghost

Fire/Steel

Grass/Steel

Psychic/Steel

Dark/Steel

Electric/Fairy

Electric/Flying

Electric/Ghost

Fairy/Normal

Fairy/Poison

Fairy/Water

Ghost

Ghost/Water

Normal/Poison

Poison/Water

Electric/Water

Fairy/Fire

Fire/Ghost

Dragon/Fairy

Electric

Electric/Normal

Fairy

Ghost/Poison

Poison

Dark/Fairy

Fire/Water

Flying/Poison

- Typings not in that list, that have examples of dominant or excellent defensive mons in the past and current gens.

These Typings

Ground/Water
Normal
Water
Dark/Flying
Fairy/Flying
Fire/Flying
Flying
Ground/Flying
Poison/Psychic
Ground
Fighting/Flying
Dark/Ground
Psychic/Water
Dragon/Flying
Dragon/Ground
Grass
Bug/Fighting

Some of these might be contentious and I don’t think it has to be all of them, that are excluded but selling a typing, that has been on a successful wall or defensive Pokémon before, as a typing that is contradictory to being a wall - even if the success had more to do with other characteristics of the mon - seems like a “PR nightmare”

Overall I believe, that a typing we choose here should not fall within these latter categories and the submission must be able to outline a clear defensive niche targeted at specific meta relevant Pokémon or a obvious neutral resist palette, without too many weaknesses the typing brings with it.
Additionally I believe it to be imperative to sketch out possible cores, that would appreciate this particular submission alongside them to show the typing has enough synergies or few overlapping weaknesses to realistically find a place on a team.
I actually think that this part is doubly important as the concept should be an exploration of roles in teambuilding and during games. If the typing isn’t chosen in a way that CAP 35 can play a meaningful defensive role in an actual defensive core, I think it would fail the concept.

The only exception to this is, if the submission explicitly states, that all utility this Pokémon has must derive from its ability, moves and stats and thus picks a typing that is just aweful. I’m not a fan of this however and would be happy to not allow it, as it would relegate solving this problem to later stages and make it much more difficult to find a satisfactory solution. One takeaway from the Chromera concept after all was, an overwhelmingly antagonistic property in the design will lead to a result, which is niche at best and avoids - as best as possible - its core identity.

 

[ausma]

Hi all, thank you all for your amazing discussion points and great suggestions/ideas. Now that we've had a good dialogue about each of these contradictions, I wanted to briefly summarize the main consensus I noticed in each to inform your direction for the suggestions you are soon to make:

Contradiction 1: Holder of Many

Contradiction 1, or Holder of Many as I've dubbed it, appears to cater best toward a constructive route. In other words, focusing on the unique set of resistances is really important in carving out a niche moreso than trying to mitigate its weaknesses. I noticed that in terms of typing dichotomy, people have mentioned that having a typing that can possess some level of threat to potential Pokemon that would want to exploit a weakness, which I think is a valid response to this prompt. In general, it looks as though with a typing that possesses many weaknesses and resistances, it's hugely about leaning into those resistances and being able to leverage your matchup into your weaknesses either with the innate threat that one of your typings possesses or through trading HP against weaker coverage moves for progress/disruption. Stealth Rock and hazard pressure here does not seem to not be a major problem for most people, however being a Pokemon with a typing that would like to tank Knock Off but values Heavy-Duty Boots would not be desirable.

Contradiction 2: Holder of Few

Contradiction 2, or Holder of Few as I've dubbed it, wants to lean more into the lack of weaknesses and a crucial resist. STAB moves are, for the most part, agreed upon to just not really be a necessary caveat to be functional, and if anything could constrain the typing decision if they're leaned into too hard. There are resistances that are notable enough to consider building our type around: Ground- and Water- were both major and common mentions. Ground- particularly stood out to me because of the saturation of them we have in SV CAP. In terms of weaknesses, Rock itself was commonly cited in part because of Stealth Rock, but also Dark due to the high amount of Dark-types in the tier; these are probably best to avoid if possible since it would make maneuvering around common interactions a lot more difficult for CAP 35 in comparison to other walls.

The last thing I think I'm going to say that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned relates specifically to having a U-turn weakness. I think having a U-turn weakness as a wall, which inherently folds momentum, is a pretty dangerous situation to have when the idea behind our lack of a standout weakness profile is to tank neutral hits more reliably. A stronger U-turn undermines this pretty hard and makes tanking wallbreaker moves a lot harder; imo for our purposes it would be best to try and steer clear of it and is probably something I'm going to be more hesitant toward slating.

--

Across both contradictions, I think Amamama made an incredible point and is one that should be seriously considered as we move into suggestions: defensive coring. Pokemon are often considered in part for the utility they provide for a specific team/structure, and I think it's really intuitive to consider how this CAP would be able to fit on teams in tandem with other major Pokemon in the tier so we can get a practical idea of how its resistances and weaknesses would interact with the tier both in the teambuilder and in practice.

Amamama also made some strong parameters regarding type combinations that would be best to avoid that I would like to endorse here. I'd recommend checking them out before making a suggestion so you don't move too far in one direction or the other.

--

With that said, it's time for the moment you all have been waiting for. I'm going to now officially open the floodgates for suggestions!

Here are some questions/ideas I would like you to consider and discuss in your suggestion posts. You don't need to follow them verbatim, but I would heavily advise using them as a framework for your arguments!

1: Which contradiction do you see this type leaning into?

2: What makes this typing inherently "contradictory" in the context of our discussion?

3: What aspects of this typing align with this contradiction based on what we just talked about? What niche does it fill?

4: Does the niche this typing possesses clash with any existing SV CAP Pokemon in any meaningful way?

5: What common type combinations/Pokemon does this typing defensively complement that would make teams want to actively consider it?

As of this post, I'm going to give suggestions about 96 hours before I give a final slate. Have fun, and let me know if you would like any feedback on your posts/ideas. I will be happy to oblige.

 

[Brambane]

I think the reason that the U-turn weaknesses has not been presented as a priority is that most U-turns are going to be unSTABed, and some of them not even fully invested, and even a super-effective U-turn can be tolerated with substantial Defense.

As far as defensive coring, you probably want to slot into the CAP balance standards, which means playing nice alongside most combinations of your bulky Water (often Arghonaut, Cresceidon, or Alomomola), Ground-type, and Poison-type. Ground is a key offensive and defensive type in CAP, also because the Ground-types are some of the best removal and setters in the format, and Poison is essential for their resistance to both Fairy and Fighting, ideally while not being weak to Fire or Water.

Ghost resists are something of a priority right now; Dragapult and Kitsunoh are substantial Ghost-type attackers, and Revenankh, Gholdengo, and Necturna are threats to consider. If I am going to prioritize either Holder of Many or Holder of Few, a Ghost resist seems like a good bet, even if the rest of its defensive profile seems lackluster.

As such, Normal and its combinations, or Dark and its combinations, seem like a logical choice. Normal and Dark are also both fairly mediocre defensive types by themselves, only ever carried by sheer raw stat value of Blissey and, historically, Umbreon.

Ice combinations pair well with Glowking. This is some immediate team synergy. Additionally, an Ice resist is not a bad thing to have on a team. An Ice-type that can take advantage of Glowking's Future Sight pressure would be strong.

Bug's Ground and Fighting resists might be worth the typings many other downsides. These are both extremely common typings offensively and defensively on teams, and a Bug-type brings a resistance of both to the plate. The typing is notoriously poor offensively by itself however and any combination is going to have to deal with some less than pleasant weaknesses.

Fighting's STAB Body Press could make it a useful secondary type. I think a Fighting-type monotype immediately just falls flat next to Zamazenta or Arghonaut without a crazy ability. IronPress is a useful moveset for a wall and often allows a Pokemon to maintain an offensive presence while still being a key defensive piece. This makes it a useful type offensively, although defensively exploitable since Arghonaut and Zamazenta have large targets on their back. This is sort of the contradiction for the typing; its defensive value is greatly diminished when you are already a typing people really want to hit super-effective.

 

[Samirsin]

I am going to submit Bug/Ground

Part of the Holder of Few club, as it has crucial resistances: Ground and Fighting, two of the most offensive types in CAP right now. Even if Bug/Ground is weak to common offensive types in the tier, it's not meant to resist absolutely everything. Ground synergizes well with Bug by removing its Rock weakness, helping towards the Stealth Rock issue. The contradiction comes from the typing itself. On the surface, Bug/Ground is considered a weak defensive typing because of its weaknesses, which are often exploited by powerful attackers in CAP. This combination would fit well into defensive cores alongside bulky Water- or Steel-types. For example, pairing with Pokémon like Arghonaut, who can take on the Ice- and Water-type moves that Bug/Ground fears, would form a solid core. It also has immediate value with an immunity to Electric, a common coverage type.

 

[MrDollSteak]

I would like to submit Normal/Fairy for consideration.

1: Which contradiction do you see this type leaning into?

This type is a natural Holder of Few that leans into in the style of historical walls in Blissey and Clefable.

2: What makes this typing inherently "contradictory" in the context of our discussion?

This is a type which in many ways functions as a highly neutral spread, it is not particularly weak to super effective hits, only being hit by Poison and Steel, but also has only very limited resistances to Dark and Bug. In comparison to Mono-Fairy, this type trades in a valuable Fighting Resist for a theoretically potent, albeit arguably situational Ghost immunity. In this sense, in order to ensure that CAP35 is a functional wall, we will need to consider a range of future stages to patch up the broadness of the approach. Although there is evidence of Fairy being a suitable defensive typing, and thus that this particular type might be considered too strong, looking at the actual VR rankings right now, there are very prominent Poison and Steel-type attackers that will make the job of being a Wall more difficult, even if the Normal type provides it more opportunity to come in on some of the more common Ghost-attacks in the metagame. In this way I would say that another level of contradiction comes about from balacing its strengths with its practical weaknesses.

3: What aspects of this typing align with this contradiction based on what we just talked about? What niche does it fill?

I think what makes this typing interesting as a contradictory wall typing is its incredibly targeted set of immunities and resists that allow it to come in on common STAB attacks from premier threats in the meta such as Dragapult, Gholdengo, Darkrai and Kitsunoh, while still remaining vulnerable to either common neutral coverage options or lesser run STAB options. Furthermore, this type could function well as a general Knock-Off absorber due to its resist. Importantly, it will nevertheless likely still want to carry Heavy-Duty boots in a manner quite similar to Cresceidon that would encourage interesting play against opposing walls. The Ghost immunity combined with the standard Fairy toolkit is also interesting in both supporting and combatting Hazard stacking teams as it theoretically disincentives spinblockers from coming in, as well as one of the most common hazard removers in Great Task. In practice, however, it will likely still be quite vulnerable to some of the other coverage or STAB options from these Pokemon in terms of moves like Make It Rain! and Headlong Rush.

4: Does the niche this typing possesses clash with any existing SV CAP Pokemon in any meaningful way?

The broad neutrality of this typing makes it highly flexible although at the same time not particularly essential in a vacuum. With this in mind, it is probably most comparable to Blissey, Clefable and Cresceidon in the sense of being a Fairy-type wall, and thus weak to Poison-type attacks. I personally think that this is quite positive, as I believe that CAP 35's function as a wall should probably be one that competes with Cresceidon as opposed to complementing it. It's possible that a Normal/Fairy CAP 35 would still be run alongside Cresceidon, but would sacrifice much of the team's ability to core. In comparison to Clefable, while being better at handling the Ghosts, it is also more vulnerable to common physical attackers like Zamazenta in losing its fighting resist which means although they will compete, there will be certain compositions that may prefer Clefable's various traits. A similar point could be made about Blissey, although I would suggest Blissey's strengths are separate from typing almost completely.

5: What common type combinations/Pokemon does this typing defensively complement that would make teams want to actively consider it?

As opposed to patching up the weaknesses of common cores as some walls may do, this type instead provides a very specific set of resistances and immunities to common attackers that can typical overwhelm teams. In this way, CAP 35 would realistically be able to slot into many existing cores both offensively and defensively in a role similar to what Blissey and Clefable currently achieve as it can support other common walls like Gliscor, Alomomola, Arghonaut and Venomicon from being picked apart by Dragapult.

 

[boo836]

I'm going to submit Normal/Steel

Resistances:

While it probably fits better in the Holder of Many given its great number of resistances and immunities, I went with a typing that counterintuitively reinforces those weaknesses it already has by trading a 4x Fighting weakness for a Ghost immunity, in a metagame where both are increasingly common attacking types, and did so to target very specific offensive threats, so I don't know if that description is entirely accurate. Considering many Ghost types (Gholdengo, Revenankh, Kitsunoh) use Fighting-type moves, this immunity doesn't offer a blanket answer to those Pokemon. Instead, it offers an answer to some Ghost types that don't utilise Fighting moves, notably Dragapult and Necturna. It seems weird to submit something with a clear defensive profile, but I'd argue that the ubiquity of Fire, Ground, and Fighting moves in SV CAP are much more relevant than stuff like Grass, Psychic, and Steel. I'd even go so far as to say that relatively speaking it's not a great generation to be a Steel type.

Plenty of type combinations would appreciate this typing, but what really stands out to be would be other Ghost types, particularly Dragapult.

Adding my thoughts on Normal and other typings based on a previous question that was posed:

Or, should we lean more into a set of resistances being so potent that these weaknesses are harder to exploit due to the defensive niche of our typing accomplishing the role we want it to? Why?

I think this is really more or less a requirement for CAP35, establishing defensive niches is the only thing that's going to really work for this sort of concept without just simply rendering typing irrelevant through stats. I think dex gave a good summary of why Blissey's Normal typing is a great example of a counterintuitive but useful typing. Psychic works in much the same way, as does Ghost. However, it can be a really boring approach to wall design. I don't think Normal is necessarily bad in a counterintuitive type combination, there just needs to be something to pose a real trade-off (namely, taking on a Ghost immunity for a quad Fighting weakness).

But I think there are other typings that are more interesting, like Bug. Fighting, Ground, and strong Grass moves are quite common in SV. We've already seen how Buzzwole could in the past utilise its resistances to act as an answer for mons like Landorus, Zygarde, Arceus Ground, Kartana, Tapu Bulu, and Garchomp. Fire might be worth it for resistances to Hemogoblin, Grass could help against Ground and Water types. Dark could be interesting for its Ghost resistance, but it already feels like Ting Lu more or less perfected the role of a Dark-type wall, and it would be difficult differentiating CAP35 from it.

 

[sun_dew]

I'm going to propose Psychic/Fighting for this CAP:

Clearly, this typing is a Holder of Few, with a very limited palette of weaknesses and resistances. However, the resistances it does have, those being Fighting and Rock, are quite useful, with Fighting being both common offensive STAB and common coverage, and Rock providing resistance to Stealth Rock.

What makes this typing contradictory is its strong offensive implications. Fighting alone isn't an innately offensive type, with multiple potent defensive users in the current meta, and Psychic is in a similar position. However, this is not the case when put together. All of the typing's users so far have been powerful physical attackers that lean almost entirely into offense (at least at their most viable), including the likes of Medicham, Gallade, and Mewtwo X. It's also contradictory in the fact that its weak to Ghost and Fairy, two types that pop up quite a bit in the current meta.

This typing's potential, in my eyes, comes from its largely neutral defensive palette paired with an intimidating offensive presence. Even without leaning into offense, being able to hit key threats with STAB Psychic and Fighting moves makes it much harder for them to handle us, even if we don't perfectly resist their moveset. I think this makes this combo stand out from the typical bulky Fighting or Psychic mon, and gives us an interesting niche to work with.

In terms of team composition, this typing pairs very well with Fairy-types, including , , and . Being able to switch in on Poison and Steel (not including Gholdengo, unfortunately) threats for neutral damage and then proceed to out-damage them with super-effective STAB is helpful and a somewhat underexplored niche. It could be argued that already fills this role, but I think that access to STAB Body Press (my beloved) makes this typing stand out enough to be a viable teammate.

I'm also very interested in exploring Bug/Fairy and Normal/Fire, but I don't feel like I'm the best person to do a full writeup on these types. If these come up later in discussion (which I am sure they will), I'd like to throw my support behind them in advance.

 

[StarFalcon555]

okay okay okay guys, you all need to hear me out...



submitting Normal/Flying for consideration.

takes neutral damage from: Normal, Fighting, Flying, Poison, Steel, Fire, Water, Psychic, Dragon, Dark, Fairy
takes super effective damage from: Rock, Electric, Ice
is immune to: Ghost, Ground
takes resisted damage from: Bug, Grass

1: Which contradiction do you see this type leaning into?
This would be a Holder of Few typing - very few weaknesses, very few resists, lots of neutralities, and a couple of key immunities.

2: What makes this typing inherently "contradictory" in the context of our discussion?
Normal/Flying is seen as a mediocre typing in general due to it mainly being seen on Route 1 birds, but even then, almost every Normal/Flying type (the one exception being Togekiss pre-Fairy type's introduction) has taken on an offensive role (see Swellow, Staraptor, Braviary, and Mega Pidgeot).

3: What aspects of this typing align with this contradiction based on what we just talked about? What niche does it fill?
The Normal type also does nothing to patch up the Flying type's weaknesses - though this type only has three weaknesses, they are all very common in the current metagame. Powerful Rock-, Electric-, and Ice-types like Garganacl, Kyurem, Raging Bolt, Krilowatt, Weavile, and Zapdos are all B+ or higher in the viability rankings, and the Rock weakness additionally means that this typing would have to rely a lot on Heavy-Duty Boots. However, this typing does make up for it in its resistances and immunities - while it only has two of each, the combination of these resistances and immunities creates a unique and solid defensive profile. The main standout here is the dual immunities to Ghost and Ground, which are excellent for switching in on foes like Gholdengo, Dragapult, Great Tusk, Gliscor, and Ting-Lu. This typing also has a resistance to U-turn and to Grass-types, which are also fairly solid in the current metagame (see Ogerpon-W, Malaconda, Meowscarada, and Rillaboom).

5: What common type combinations/Pokemon does this typing defensively complement that would make teams want to actively consider it?
Ground-types love this typing as a partner, and there are several excellent Ground-types in the metagame. Normal/Flying can switch in on Grass-type attacks for Ground-types like Great Tusk, Equilibra, and Ting-Lu, while Ground types can handle Rock and Electric types for this type combo. A type that is super effective against Ice, like Fire, Fighting, or Steel, would round out the core quite nicely - potential partners could be Hemogoblin, Zamazenta, and Kingambit.

Also throwing my support behind Dark/Electric, Grass/Fighting, and Ice/Water, but I am way too eepy to talk about those types right now

 

[Scepticskep]

Going to be subbing Grass/Dark.

Grass / Dark is likely a contentious pick but after reviewing its matchups and synergy with other defensive pokemon in the metagame, I think it has some genuine potential in the current metagame.

1: Which contradiction do you see this type leaning into?
- Grass/Dark is certainly a Holder of Many, having some of the most type interactions of any type in the game (7 weaknesses, 6 resistances and one immunity.) The unique set of resistances it has despite its several weaknesses push me towards believing in its success in fulfilling the concept.

2. What makes this typing inherently "contradictory" in the context of this dicussion?
- Grass/Dark is a holder of many, and as such it possesses a plethora of weaknesses that can limit it from effectively walling. These weaknesses are by no means ignorable: Fire, Fairy, and Fighting are significant offensive typings in the CAP meta with mons like Hemo and Tusk, while Ice is a very common typing for coverage. But most egregious is the typing's 4x weakness to Bug, or more specifically U-Turn. This can be seen as extremely detrimental as certain mons can deal massive damage just by switching out, something that's been unfortunately experienced by multiple pokemon with this 4x weakness before.

3: What aspects of this typing align with this contradiction based on what we just talked about? What niche does it fill?
- As described in the "Holder of Many" criteria, a holder of many must derive its benefits from its unique set of resistances in order to justify its role on a team. Despite the weaknesses just mentioned, Grass/Dark boasts an incredibly impressive group of resistances in the context of CAP. Ground, Ghost, Dark, and Water are all incredibly impactful offensive types in the metagame. Ghost types are incredibly common and oppresive in the current metagame, as are grounds like Gliscor and Tusk. Knock Off is spammed by every physical attacker that gets the move, and resisting knock without needing boots is a valuable quality. Water types are extremely variable and versatile in the CAP metagame, so a resistance to water can be crucial for a team's core. And as a wall, it has all these traits while differing entirely from any other Grass/Dark type in the past. Most Grass/Dark types are offensive mons with low defenses, resulting in them instantaneously dying to a non-stab U-Turn. As a wall, it is more likely to survive U-Turns as it's almost never run by mons with Bug STAB. Overall, this mon fills a niche by covering a wide list of significant offensive typings and filling in the holes of teams weak to any of these threats.

4. Does the niche this typing possesses clash with any existing SV CAP Pokemon in any meaningful way?
- As far as I've read, there is no existing typing on a relevant SV CAP Pokemon that fills Grass/Dark's niche as a glue for teams looking to cover weaknesses, especially a combination as potent as Ground, Ghost, Dark, and Water.

5: What common type combinations/Pokemon does this typing defensively complement that would make teams want to actively consider it?
- Grass/Dark pairs very well with several of SV CAP's premier defensive pokemon. Slowking-G appreciates the Ground, Ghost, and Dark resistance. Cresc, Argh, and other bulky waters appreciate the Grass and Electric resistance. Mollux and Heatran appreciate the Ground and Water resistance, and many other pokemon are the same. Grass/Dark's ability to switch in and resist hits benefits many of the defensive cores in CAP, especially against typings that hit most pokemon neutrally like Ghost. On the flipside, Grass/Dark appreciates the resistances of other defensive mons in CAP thanks to its 7 weaknesses, as many of these weaknesses are already covered by existing defensive pokemon (U-Turn into Slowking-G and Cresc, Fire into bulky waters, Fairy into Mollux and Heatran, etc). The typing is specifically successful because it doesn't double up on resisting types with other relevant defensive mons and instead covers a wide range of types that hit most other mons neutrally or super-effectively.

This post was made by real Cacturne-heads. Hope you enjoyed! Also going to throw my support to Bug/Ground and Electric/Dark.

 

[Imw0rstadP0keM0n]

Nominating Dark/Fighting

Dark/Fighting is a Stealth Rock resistant, Holder of Few, who beats ghosts like Dragapult/Kitsunoh, soaks Knocks from basically everything, and eats Stored Powers for breakfast. As a consequence, a 4x weakness to Fairy, 2x weakness to Fighting, and 2x weakness to Flying means we suffer against some of the fastest threats in the meta (Iron Valiant, Zamazenta, Cresceidon, etc). We're additionally immune to Prankster which isn't super pertinent but nice to have.

We can utilize interesting utility STABs such as Knock Off, Foul Play, Body Press, or even something like Circle Throw. If our offensive stats are high enough, we might even consider moves like Drain Punch.

To answer specific questions, I'll quote and answer them to the best of my ability--

1: Which contradiction do you see this type leaning into?

Holder of Few--with three weaknesses and four resists its' not a whole ton. You'll be taking most attacks neutrally.

2: What makes this typing inherently "contradictory" in the context of our discussion?

Not only is Dark/Fighting inherently an offensive typing (only 4.7% of pokemon natively resist both types STAB wise), having a weakness to Fighting (as well as Flying and Fairy) is incredibly detrimental to walls. Only a few *viable* walls I can think of have a weakness to both Fighting and Fairy, and those usually have stellar mechanics to counteract that (ex., Ting-Lu has 155/125/80 bulk, full hazards, and one of the strongest defensive abilities to date.)

3: What aspects of this typing align with this contradiction based on what we just talked about? What niche does it fill?

Contradiction 2, or Holder of Few as I've dubbed it, wants to lean more into the lack of weaknesses and a crucial resist.

Resisting Ghost, Dark, and Stealth Rock makes us uniquely equipped to combat some of the biggest threats of the meta. We are able to tank Knock Off/Ceaseless Edge with 0 issues, Dragapult/Ceruledge well, Stored Power users like Chuggalong.

4: Does the niche this typing possesses clash with any existing SV CAP Pokemon in any meaningful way?

Voodoom exists and is Dark/Fighting, but is a fast revenge killer with average bulk.

5: What common type combinations/Pokemon does this typing defensively complement that would make teams want to actively consider it?

This pokemon is a great compliment to Gholdengo, who resists every type (and some) that would hit CAP 35 hard. CAP 35 in turn can tank Knocks, Shadow Balls, and dependant on bulk Earthquakes well for Gholdengo. Similar story for Glowking, where CAP 35 heavily appreciates a teammate that can eat CCs and Moonblasts, and Glowking appreciates an ally that can eat Knocks/Ghost STABs without issue.

Edit: would like to nominate grass/bug too but dont have the time to do a write up tonight

 

[viol and bass]

I would like to propose Rock / Flying.

This is a "Holder of Many" typing. Rock is such a bad defensive typing that almost every other combination is borderline unworkable here. But Flying turns the Ground weakness into an immunity and the Fighting weakness into a neutrality, which does so much to make the typing functional (while still pretty contradictory). It matches up well into borderline-unwallable mons like Ursaluna and Iron Moth (including Tera Ground), as well as switching in pretty freely on mons like Mollux, Venomicon, and Heatran. The STABs are quite potent vs. a big chunk of the meta, pressuring a lot of opposing flyers for example. Matchups vs. fighters like Arghonaut, Great Tusk, and Zamazenta are potentially quite winnable, which is insane for a rock type. Beating Hemogoblin and Dragonite is also reasonably possible. Mons that would force us out like Ogerpon-Wellspring, Kyurem, and Zapdos are dissuaded from freely switching in because of our STABs. We actually match up quite well into a lot of hazard setters specifically, making hazard control of some kind potentially interesting.

The contradiction here is obviously "defensive rock type". Garg makes it work but it is fucking Garg. Rock/Flying has significant weaknesses to common types in the meta like Water, Electric, and Steel, and it is overall more vulnerable than defensive centerpieces like Venomicon and Cresceidon. We're also weak to rocks. Others have noted that this typing's niche might clash with bulky waters that already pressure Ground and Fire types, or other flyers like Venomicon. But decisively beating Iron Moth is huge for slotting into defensive cores (Cresceidon and Venomicon may do a lot for a team, but they are not doing that), and checking mons like Ursaluna and pressuring opposing flyers, etc. are nice bonuses. There is some competition with Garganacl, but I think these mons are likely to function pretty differently. Vastly better matchups vs. most Ground and Fighting types make this typing less tera reliant and less exploitable (Garg's strengths lie in other areas).

This typing could pair quite nicely with steels because of decent-to-good matchups vs. most Fire, Ground, and Fighting types.

 

[HealthGage]

(Apologies in advance, I'm not used to making posts like these)

I'm going to be submitting Bug/Ghost for CAP 35's typing

1: Which contradiction do you see this type leaning into?
This is more so a Holder of many approach, with about a good & equal amount of resists/immunities to weaknesses, interacting with 11/18 of the pokemon typing.

2: What makes this typing inherently "contradictory" in the context of our discussion?
While it does have a few more resists & immunities than they do weaknesses, it's what those weaknesses are that cause some problems in being a wall. Fire, Flying and especially Rock being notably common and powerful threats for the Bug half, with Dark & Ghost being a bit trickier to handle since the threats go both ways. And finally due to any potential stealth rocks taking a considerable chunk of our health, people would rather have HD boots on hand.

3: What aspects of this typing align with this contradiction based on what we just talked about? What niche does it fill?
Even though their weaknesses can't be ignored for any team, this CAP would be able to tank other notably common typing or even take zero damage from them. If I'm not mistaken Ground, Grass & Fighting are just as common in the meta with Pokémon like , & , with Bug, Poison & Normal being rather good for coverage, utility or just some pure damage. Not to mention being part Ghost means that Pokémon like & won't be able to use Rapid Spin to remove any hazards we put on their side of the field, which is quite advantageous for any wall.

4: Does the niche this typing possesses clash with any existing SV CAP Pokemon in any meaningful way?
I believe not since the typing itself isn't used by any pokemon in SV, in fact the only pokemon to have this typing is . But because of its gimmick, it's forced into an offensive or utilitarian playstyle.

5: What common type combinations/Pokemon does this typing defensively complement that would make teams want to actively consider it?
Not very many defensively oriented Pokémon have a Ground or Fighting resistance, infact many of them are weak to said typings. So Pokémon like , or would benefit greatly from having an ally waiting in the wings to take a hit they severely cannot.

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

Ice/Fighting

Originally I was planning to use Ice/Poison, but as I dug through the VR ratings for ideal matchups, I realized one thing in common; Knock Off is there to fuck with almost all of said match-ups. As such, I've executed a change of plans, and am officially submitting Ice/Fighting in its place. Overall, it's a lot more viable, and it has a higher chance of making it onto the slate. We haven't made an Ice-type Pokemon since way back when CAP was even formed, so it'd be nice to get a second one up there and running :]

How Ice/Fighting Fits The Theme Of The “Uphill Battle”

Ice/Fighting is very contradictory in multiple ways. First, there's a big divide in the category of attacks that the two types want to use. Ice primarily wants to use its special attacks, with Freeze Dry to break through bulky Waters that would otherwise be hit NVE, and Blizzard to deal massive damage to everything else without having to worry about accuracy issues while the Snow is up. On the other hand, the vast majority of Fighting attacks are physical, with Drain Punch for recovery on Assault Vest sets, Close Combat for sheer power, Body Press so they can use the Defense stat instead and many more.

A more prominent contradiction is that, despite that difference above, Ice and Fighting work hand in hand together to make an aggressive STAB combination, hitting a total of 9 types super effectively. (10 if you count Freeze Dry's interaction against Waters.) Furthermore, there's not a single type in the game that resists the both of them on its own, although there are multiple Pokemon whose dual-typings work together for a cohesive resistance (Skeledirge, Gholdengo and Toxapex come to mind). Still, Ice/Fighting would be a great typing combination for a cleaner or a wall-breaker nonetheless, as it'd be very easy to add room for coverage and set-up or utility of some kind.

However, you would not typically want an Ice/Fighting typing on a dedicated wall. Before you ask why, please take a look as this screenshot

This is the type chart for Crabominable, a Generation 7 Pokemon that shares this exact typing. As you can see, it can technically fall under both categories, both being a Holder of Few resistances and a Holder of Many weaknesses. Insane, I know. That isn't to mention that Gamefreak tried multiple times, and failed just as often, to make a defensive Ice-type that has even the slightest iota of viability in a given metagame. However, this gives us an opportunity to show Gamefreak how the construction of a viable defensive Ice-type is done, using the tools that they have at their disposal.

The Main Defensive Niche Of Ice/Fighting

Right near the bottom of that same screenshot, you'll notice the following words: "Ice-types have their Defense increased by 50% in Snow." This will help a lot as far tanking physical hits go, and will ease the burden of being forced to jack the physical tankiness stat way up. Of course, this isn't unique to strictly Ice/Fighting. All Ice-types get this bonus, and that includes the Ice-type that Discord would argue as the only other one that has any real viability for this CAP: Ice/Flying. One thing stands out between those two typings. And its name is Rocks.

While Ice/Flying is immune to all other entry hazards except Stealth Rock, it's that same Stealth Rock that would make Ice/Flying hyper-reliant on whether or not its Heavy-Duty Boots remain intact. That will in turn make the ability stage much too linear, as it's that stage in particular in which Ice/Flying can ever hope to address the issue with its Boots reliance. Ice/Fighting doesn't have that problem, and as such can afford to run other items that might come in handy, such as an Assault Vest to bolster Special Defense, or Covert Cloak to stave off annoying statuses from Scald and the like.

It can even run Rocky Helmet to punish the use of Knock Off to a certain extent, which it handily resists. This resistance combined with the neutralization of its Rock weakness is why Fighting pairs quite nicely with Ice, even from an oddly defensive standpoint.

Ice/Fighting’s Issues That May Need To Be Addressed

Remember what I said about Ice & Fighting being an aggressive STAB combo? Well done; you've identified the first problem right there. Getting too careless with stat and/or movepool submissions could very well cause players to try and use this offensively instead, which would defeat the purpose of this concept. Thankfully, this is an easy fix. The Speed stat is known to make or break a Pokemon's offensive ability, but the actual Attack and Special Attack stats can contribute just as much. Reigning those stats in will be the key.

Next up, there're the weaknesses to Flying and Steel attacks. You'd think that the Ice STAB would scare off the former and the Fighting STAB the latter, but in order to even try and accomplish that, you'd need a safe switch-in to the offending Pokemon, and you'd need to be the faster mon to begin with... which is a tall order for a wall, since common sense would dictate that you're supposed to invest strictly in its bulk. Equilibra and Venomicon are special case assholes that attack from the special side, which Ice/Fighting can't as easily defend from. Then there're your Dragons, which you'd also think Ice/Fighting would check, but are just too fast in practice and often run Fire coverage. Real shame :/

Finally, as Brambane mentioned, Arghonaut and Zamazenta have targets on their backs already, and Ice/Fighting could very well be easily caught in the crossfire of said targets. It doesn't help that Ice doesn't neutralize any of Fighting's weaknesses. And that includes the aforementioned Flying weakness that I talked about earlier. To be honest, even if I did have an idea on how to address this, mentioning it here would be poll-jumping. But it's worth a mention nonetheless.

How Ice/Fighting Might Fare In The Current Metagame

For the record, I'm not the best person to ask this question. I've been out of touch from the CAP metagame, and I haven't even played through SV OU. But I did do some digging through the VR, and picked out a few mons that I figured would be worth talking about.

Vs. Ting-Lu: Also affectionately known as Ting-Loser by popular PokeTuber Emvee. Now, if this were a wallbreaker, then Ting-Lu would be the easiest clap of easy claps. But all jests aside, Ice/Fighting still has a very positive match-up overall. We just gotta be careful about Ruination.

Vs. Ogerpon-Wellspring: On the one hand, even an uninvested Freeze Dry from a middling Sp. Atk Ice/Fighting CAP can outright murder Wellspring most of the time. But chances are that Ice/Fighting CAP will have to try and tank a Play Rough first, and those can hurt at +2. They're not impossible to tank, however; least of all with Snow on CAP35's side.

Vs. Malaconda: While it sure looks like Ice/Fighting CAP would destroy Malaconda on the surface, Malaconda itself is known to pivot around, and Drought will interfere with CAP's defensive profile through overriding Snow.

Vs. Landorus-Therian & Gliscor: It's a good thing neither of these two commonly use their Flying STABs (or even have a viable one in Lando's case), cause otherwise things would get very dicey very quickly. That said, Gliscor can still catch Ice/Fighting CAP off-guard by running Acrobatics, so if this gets through to playtesting with this type, we'll have to see if that's what it winds up doing.

Vs. Kyurem: Huzzah! The one Dragon-type that doesn't run Fire coverage. Ice/Fighting CAP will have to go unorthodox and use its Fighting STAB instead, as well as watch its PP because of Pressure, but overall, its match-up against Kyurem should be good. Kyurem having lost Roost makes the match-up even more advantageous for Ice/Fighting CAP.

Vs. Darkrai: Unfortunately, Darkrai has speed on its side, and has Focus Blast that it can use to smash Ice/Fighting CAP on the special side where it hurts the most. Well, assuming it actually hits, anyway. Assault Vest exists to ease the burden of taking Rai on.

Vs. Arghonaut: Like Wellspring, Ice/Fighting CAP's match-up against Arghonaut is debatable. Due to the way Circle Throw works, even a very low Speed CAP can draw first blood with STAB Freeze Dry, taking a chunk out of Argh's health before it gets phazed out. But unless Freeze Dry kills it off, it won't actually stop Argh from retaliating with said Circle Throw. That's the big thing to keep in mind.

Potential Partners For CAP35 Should Ice/Fighting Become Its Typing

Let's just get the obvious one out of the way: Glowking. It has Chilly Reception to get Ice/Fighting CAP in safely, as well as set up the Snow that helps it establish its defensive profile. Out of all the Ice-type combinations in the game, Ice/Fighting is one of the most able to repay Glowking for its kindness, as it threatens out the Ground- and Dark-types that Glowking would prefer not to deal with.

Gliscor is another good choice to partner Ice/Fighting CAP up with. STAB EQ can certainly help stave off bulky Fires, and Gliscor can also absorb Toxics that would ruin the defensive profile that Ice/Fighting CAP would have going with Snow.

One last solid choice is Cresceidon, a bulky Water that can take on the Fire and Fighting attacks aimed at Ice/Fighting CAP, and further aid it by spreading fast paralysis. The opponent's paralysis will take a lot of pressure out from Ice/Fighting CAP; not only by slowing them down to a point where CAP can outspeed, but also occasionally denying them turns outright, buying CAP time to heal from the many hits it might've had to take.

...

So yeah, that's my pitch. Hope you enjoy the read

 

[Amamama]

Electric/Dark

This typing on the surface is not a weak defensive typing, resisting five types and being immune to one, while only being weak to four. With this it definitely falls into the category holder of many.
Its weaknesses to fighting, ground and fairy can be seen as hindering though, in a meta that is dominated by strong grounds and boasting several offensive fairy and fighting types.
In my eyes, most of the contradiction of this typing stems from its offensive orientation though. Both Electric and Dark are heavily associated with strong Wallbreakers and Pivots. Even though Electric has only one weakness, only very few electric types have been used as walls, and dark is traditionally one of the most offensive leaning types in the game with only few examples of successful walls as well.
That said Dark brings with it one of the most coveted resists in the game. Being able to check ghosts very often relies on stat checking them with multiple mons, which secures the niches of mons like Ting Lu and Tyranitar in their respective metas.
While Normal could also provide this, dark additionally grants SE STAB against these ghosts, which makes walling them not fully reactionary.
Adding a potential Future Sight and Stored Power absorber just adds to this utility.
While Fighting would generally be better at dealing with the dark types that dark resist, as dark cannot hit itself SE (duh), it still offers a resist to highly volatile breakers and sweepers.
Steel is often seen is weaker offensive typing, but in a gen with mons like Gholdengo Kingambit and Equilibra being dominant as they are a Steel resist is quite good.

Aided by Electric the key targets of this type are Kingambit, Darkrai, Deoxys-S, Gholdengo, Kitsunoh and Zapdos, which STABs Electric/Dark resists.
Now all of these mons have ways around that, including Tera on Gambit, Focus Blast on Darkrai and Gholdengo and Uturn on Zapdos and Kitsunoh, which also very often runs Close Combat as well as Deo-S’ Superpower.
That said these are - with the exception of Tera Blast on Gambit - coverage moves, which should allow us to cover them via Stats and/or ability.

While this will have to wait until ability stage, one big selling point of the type combo for me personally is, that, given different abilities, it allows us to flex into different additional Targets, including Dragapult, Equilibra, Slowking G, Roaring Moon, Venomicon, Raging Bolt, etc. depending on which specific ability, while also leaving us the potential to simply shore up its existing good resists.

Another point I enjoy with this typing, is its offensive potency. While it shouldn’t be the center of attention, having a wall that doesn’t give mons like Arghonaut, Cresceidon, Slowking G, Venomicon, Alomomola or Skarmory a chance to do their thing seems really good to me and leans into an aspect of this concept, where the defensive utility of this typing is fostered by not being passive into other walls.

I believe this typing can be quite interesting for existing cores, as it should allow the bulky ground types, which often are tasked to deal with the offensive dark and ghost types respectively, to take over other responsibilities or even play more offensively oriented. Think Libra not being tasked with soft checking Dragapult, Gholdengo, DeoxS and Darkrai or Great Tusk and Gliscor being freed of dealing with Kingambit. It also can serve as an Electric type check not weak to water (Kril/Rotom) and resistant to Hurricane, that actually can pressure Zapdos and Rotom (Raging Bolt is a tall order but even that is possible).
One particular pairing I like with this is Cresceidon plus 35, as 35 can take on electric types that Cresceidon doesn’t like, especially Kril, while pressuring Book, Gholdengo and Gking offensively, mons that can give Cresceidon trouble.
As a bulky water, which doesn’t cover steel types defensively, Cresceidon should enjoy that resist in particular, ridding the core of the excessive need to run additional Kingambit or Gholdengo switch ins. At the same time Cresceidon is a good option to cover fighting and ground types that trouble 35 and provides a check to Hemogoblin.

With all these characteristics, Electric/Dark seems like a highly flexible pick, that should allow us to experiment with different routes going forward.


I will likely do a post rating other types later but for now I wanna endorse Dark/Bug and Ice/Flying. If they ever are submitted, they would have my support.

 

[Brambane]

I am going to suggest two types, since both are monotypes and the reasoning will be brief.

Dark is an overwhelmingly poor Defensive type due to two very common weaknesses, but brings two key resists in Ghost and Dark itself. This balances out to a fairly neutral typing in terms of defensive profile, but its key attribute is that its weaknesses are readily covered by already present Pokemon in the metagame while its resistance to Ghost can be hard to find for teams. The common Fairy-type and Poison-type options on most bulkier teams are already handling the metagame's Fighting-types, while the Fairies are again handled by the Poisons as well as a handful of decent Steel-types in a pinch. The typing has obviously good STAB options with Knock Off, Foul Play, and Ceaseless Edge. I think this is a typing that fits the bill for what we want; poor defensively overall, but niche with current builds.

Fire is interesting because it has 5 resists to 3 weaknesses, yet historically was and to some extant still is seen as poor defensive type by itself. This is almost ideal for us; a typing that from general perception is bad but secretly has some clutch defensive utility. It's weaknesses happen to be historically common types and admittedly still are, most teams have a Ground-type and almost all of them have some kind of strong Water-type move. But 5 resists with an immunity to burn is a solid starting place for the ability and stats stage to begin.

 

[mayonnaise. mayo.]

okie chat, hear me out (putting up my justification here)
Steel/Rock is a Holder of Many contradictory typing. Well, it has three weaknesses, but two of them are 4x weaknesses, Fighting and Ground. Fighting and Ground are common typings because of Arghonaut and Equilibra, therefore the contradiction is quite plentiful. I still think that is a decent typing at the minimum, considering how it gives CAP 35 a resistance and immunity to Chuggalong.

There was one thing I wanted to use this typing for, and that is being a sand wall. You see, as the image below the big typing official nomination depicts, Rock-types gain a 1.5x multiplier in Special Defense when sand is up. I think this could benefit CAP 35 immensely, so I nominate...

STEEL/ROCK

​

 

[Yuelia]

Going to throw my hat in the ring for Electric/Normal.

This typing inhabits the Holder of Few design space, with the aim of taking mostly-neutral hits on the special side to account for the fact that the vast majority of Fighting and Ground coverage is physical (with the notable exception of Equilibra, of course). While it has little in the way of resistances to hazards, pivoting moves, or utility moves like Knock Off, it's notably not outright weak to any of them.

Electric, in general, is not a type associated with walling at all, outside of the few mons to have both the type and an immunity to Ground. Ground in general, and Earthquake in particular, has a strong case for being the single best form of offense in the entire game of Pokemon. The only Electric-type mon without a Ground immunity that I managed to find with both instant recovery and even passable defensive stats is Bellibolt, which is simply not viable in OU. Therefore, I believe that the concept of an Electric-type wall without a Ground immunity inhabits a tremendously unexplored design space.

As for why part-Normal? And what positives does this type combo offer? Well, let's ask this friend:

Being a complete hard stop to any Gholdengo lacking Focus Blast, which according to the most recent moveset stats is over 88% of them, is an extremely valuable niche for a special wall to have. This matchup in particular is extremely important for the sort of team that brings a defensive wall in the first place: a mon that otherwise laughs at stall, a mon that defensive teams must have an answer for.

 

[mark6870]

Rock is the poster child of Contradiction 1: Holder of Many for this concept as it has useful resistances to Fire and Flying, as well as the potential Sandstorm Sp.Def boost but crippling weaknesses to Ground, Fighting, and Water. Rock alone would put us in direct competition with Garganacl, however, so it needs other typings to help differentiate it.
Rock/Ground:
Weaknesses: Fighting, Grass, Ground, Ice, Steel, Water
Resistances: Fire, Flying, Normal, Poison, Rock
Immunities: Electric, Sandstorm damage

Rock/Ground benefits from the Electric immunity, which allows it to check Raging Bolt and have the opportunity to enter on the many Pokemon that use Electric coverage. We hurt in the weaknesses, department, being weak to both of Great Tusk's STAB combinations and being 4x weak to Water in a tier with Walking Wake isn't optimal. Rock/Ground also has offensive merit, having STAB on earthquake and rock slide allows it to potentially 2hko or 1hko against the mons it checks and make decent progress on most other Pokemon.

Rock/Steel:
Weaknesses: Fighting, Ground, Water
Resistances: Bug, Dragon, Fairy, Flying, Ice, Normal, Psychic, Rock
Immunities: Poison, Sandstorm damage, Toxic

Rock/Steel is extra extra weak to Great Tusk, annd it still loses to Water types. However, the Fairy resistance and fire neutrality make it a possible Hemo check, and the Poison immunity means it does not fear Toxic. The Ice resistance is also useful, allowing it to potentially check Weavile. Steel typing has potential STAB Heavy Slam, which has the may be powerful based on whichever weight we go with.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

My submission is going for a Song; Ice/Fire;

Weak 4* Rock, Weak 2* Ground, Fighting and Water​

Strong 4* Ice, Strong 2* Grass, Bug, Fairy​

Before I address the individual questions, the TL:DR cliff notes
- It still has utseful utility - Ice presents 50% phys bulk Boost in snow, which Chilly Reception team support provides, UTurn and Pixilate ESpeed Resist, Burn and to a lesser extent Freeze Immune, while Fire removes Ice's weakness to both Fire and Steel.
- If Snow is being used defensively, it has the boost of removing opponents weather support and should it be desired, can provide offensive buffs in the form of perfect accuracy Blizzard.
- Being active in snow effectively works similar to additional physical resist.
- Should STABs be a desire, the combination presents a decent amount of risk to the current meta. I should note that I completely disregarded any offensive potential when deciding whether the typing was suited to the concept.
- There is no requirement to run Tera for it to be useable, but a savvy player can make use of it to bait attacks into one of its weaknesses that it can then trade out of.

1: Which contradiction do you see this type leaning into?
I'd argue that this this typing combination particularly leans into Contradiction 1 - as part of ausma's write ups for the two C1 mentions neutrality to Knock off and an offensive presence by the two STAB's gives it free actions with which it can begin to shine. Snow presents opportunity for this typing to achieve a decent Physical Bulk, but it is not required. It doesn't really appreciate Flip Turn, but U-Turn users will find their damage resisted. Given the numbers involved, I'm not sure I could class four resistances as "many", so could then be archetyped by what it does resist.

2: What makes this typing inherently "contradictory" in the context of our discussion?
The most glaring is a 4* weakness to Stealth Rock, which could be considered crippling, but the inclusion of HDB and team support with a cleaner makes it somewhat useable. Added to this are weaknesses to Ground and Fighting, which with Arghonaut and Equilibra running around (the latter of which ignores Snow buffs) is a bit of a concern to its survivability. Water is another common weakness; Burn immune, but offset by the weakness to water, so Scald can't strictly by freely swapped into either.

3: What aspects of this typing align with this contradiction based on what we just talked about? What niche does it fill?
CAP35 is intended to be a wall, despite its otherwise unsuitable typing. Syclant (if UR, why 15% usage in 1630? what am I missing?), Hemogoblin, Caribolt immediately stand out as mon which to capitalize on, which are notably and STAB resisted, and coincidentally Physical attackers therefore CAP35 benefitting from Snow. To a lesser extent, the STAB can clap back at some of the meta and generate momentum by potentially putting damage some of the S and A+ Tier mon; Dragapult, Chuggalong, Equilibra, Gliscor - Gliscor despite a CAP35 EQ weakness would have to time it right and be stats dependent on whether it wants to risk an Ice Beam.

4: Does the niche this typing possesses clash with any existing SV CAP Pokemon in any meaningful way?
Hemogoblin could be argued from the defensive profile of the typing; however the potential snow interaction and poison resistance leads to some susceptibility with Chuggalong's presence, and Hemo is much more offensively minded innately by virtue of Pixillate Espeed.

5: What common type combinations/Pokemon does this typing defensively complement that would make teams want to actively consider it?
The most obvious one for me is Slowking-Galar and Saharaja, mainly for their support. Saharaja is excellent by virtue of Water Absorb, Rock Resist, and Rapid Spin to help clear fields, while Slowking-Galar provides Fighting Resist and Chilly Reception to generate snow increasing CAP35's ability to resist phys.

 

[dex]

There's been a good few Fire and Fighting typings thrown out here already, but what about the confluence of the two?

Fighting/Fire

Fire/Fighting possesses a nice resistance profile to a lot of the "common" utility moves (Knock Off, U-turn, Will-O-Wisp), making it perfect for the wall that doesn't want to be bothered by the small hits. Furthermore, a Rock neutrality means that it is not beholden to Heavy-Duty Boots, letting it make full use of its resistance to Dark. On the flip side, it is weak to the very common attacking types Water and Ground, and the common coverage type Psychic also hits it hard. This typing does have some counterintuitive points to it (Fire's biggest strength as a defensive typing is that it reists Fairy, which this typing does not, for example) which I think makes it an interesting choice to work with.

1: Which contradiction do you see this type leaning into?
This typing leans into Category 1 "Holder of Many". It has a larger list of resistances than your average contradictory defensive typing, but it's also weak to some very common types (Ground, Water, Flying) and neutral to a lot of the hardest-hitting ones that you'd want to resist (Fairy, Ghost, Fighting).

2: What makes this typing inherently "contradictory" in the context of our discussion?
What really seals this typing in for me as contradictory is what its weaknesses and resistances are in the scope of the metagame. The things it resists are mostly the "small" hits (Dark and Bug) while it is weak to the "big" hits (Ground, Water). However, I think this is an interesting space to look into for a wall.

3: What aspects of this typing align with this contradiction based on what we just talked about? What niche does it fill?
This typing has mostly neutral matchups into the upper echelon of SV CAP. Ground- and Water-types threaten it quite a bit and it doesn't have a great answer for the good ones immediately However, where this typing makes its bank is as a Dark resist. It is resistant or neutral to all of Darkrai's moves and is extremely positive against Kingambit and Weavile. Being a Fire-type that isn't reliant on Heavy-Duty Boots makes its job checking these powerful Dark-types much easier than other options.

4: Does the niche this typing possesses clash with any existing SV CAP Pokemon in any meaningful way?
As you may have gathered by now, this typing immediately clashes with Arghonaut, which possesses much of the same defensive profile without the important weaknesses to Water and Ground. However, this typing has the potential of Fire-type STAB and a Fairy neutrality to differentiate it, making it infinitely better into top-tier Pokemon like Gholdengo and Iron Valiant than Arghonaut. Another Pokemon this competes with is Moltres, a Fire-type that has a better matchup against Great Tusk and especially Equilibra among other Pokemon like Venomicon and Zamazenta. However, the big differentiating factor here is that this typing does not rely on Heavy-Duty Boots, making it much easier for it to switch into Knock Off. It also does not have a 4x weakness, meaning it cannot get into trouble with off-meta coverage like Stone Edge Zamazenta or Rock-types like Garganacl.

5: What common type combinations/Pokemon does this typing defensively complement that would make teams want to actively consider it?
Venomicon loves this sort of typing being in play. An Ice resistance that isn't afraid of Darkrai or Gholdengo is awesome for Venomicon to partner with, while Venomicon provides a Ground immunity and very complementary resistance profile to help CAP 35 deal with stuff like Great Tusk and Gliscor. Another Pokemon that this typing meshes well with is Clefable. Again, this typing's hugely positive matchup into Gholdengo helps here.

 

[kenn]

Small preface that I am doing this strictly as a user and not as TL lol
Funny that Brambane mentioned Fire and Dark separately so I am here to fix complement that by proposing...

Fire/Dark

Weaknesses: Fighting, Ground, Rock, Water
Resistances: Dark, Fire, Ghost, Grass, Ice, Steel
Immunities: Psychic, Burn, Prankster

Which contradiction do you see this type leaning into?

This definitely feels like it leans towards Holder of Many as it has 6 resistances and 1 immunity.

What makes this typing inherently "contradictory" in the context of our discussion?

While this does have only 4 weaknesses, they all 4 are extremely common weaknesses, which I feel makes this contradictory enough to warrant a proposal. Also, this typing has only been used for 4 mons: Houndour/Houndoom, Incineroar, and Chi-Yu. The 1st and 3rd ones are strictly offensive in what they do and they do it well. Incineroar is more of a defensive pivot but usually only sees success in Doubles while failing to recreate that in Singles due to what it has access to in its movepool.

What aspects of this typing align with this contradiction based on what we just talked about? What niche does it fill?

The main draw of a type combination such as this is being able to have SE STAB against Gholdengo and Dragapult and also shut down WispHex sets from the latter as well. Imo a Dark type is fairly huge atm in terms of "filling the gap" for more defensively inclined cores and Fire complements Dark the best by losing the weakness to U-turn and gaining that immunity to burn.

Does the niche this typing possesses clash with any existing SV CAP Pokemon in any meaningful way?

Absolutely not. This is a typing that is meant to "fit right in" with the likes of Venomicon, Arghonaut, or Equilibra.

What common type combinations/Pokemon does this typing defensively complement that would make teams want to actively consider it?

Flying-types such as Gliscor or Venomicon are extremely complementary to this typing. I also think Arghonaut appreciates Fire/Dark because this typing should be able to handle Psychic-types such as Galarian Slowking and Deoxys-Speed for it.

I also have a 2nd proposal!

Grass/Psychic

Weaknesses: Bug, Dark, Fire, Flying, Ghost, Ice, Poison
Resistances: Electric, Fighting, Grass, Ground, Psychic, Water
Immunities: Powder moves

Which contradiction do you see this type leaning into?

This is definitely leaning into Holder of Many with 7 weaknesses and 6 resistances.

What makes this typing inherently "contradictory" in the context of our discussion?

I think Psychic has been quite known as a good offensive typing in the context of CAP and Grass has some nice resistances in and of itself, but is usually carried by its secondary typing (i.e. Vileplume, Ferrothorn) or a bonkers ability (Contrary Serperior, Thick Fat Mega Venusaur).

What aspects of this typing align with this contradiction based on what we just talked about? What niche does it fill?

I think this typing adds a particularly unique set of resists to be on one Pokémon such as Ground + Fighting and Water + Grass. I believe the compression this typing has to offer can allow it to fit into terms that may need a "catch all" check to certain threats. I also feel like this epitomizes the idea behind Holder of Many as it has a plethora of common weaknesses such as Fire, U-turn Bug, Dark, and Ice as well as having an awkward matchup into other CAPs like Venomicon while offering what was previously mentioned.

Does the niche this typing possesses clash with any existing SV CAP Pokemon in any meaningful way?

Because of the amount of weaknesses this typing has, it is definitely bound to clash with quite a lot of Pokemon that are already top choices for a team. That being said, I think this can work itself onto a team strictly by utilizing the unique resistance spread that it has.

What common type combinations/Pokemon does this typing defensively complement that would make teams want to actively consider it?

Pokemon such as Garganacl would be a really good partner since it can take the Fire-, Flying-, or Ghost-type moves while this typing handles the likes of Ogerpon or Great Tusk. I think Venomicon, despite compounding an Ice weakness, is also a solid partner here. Same goes for Arghonaut, although that compounds a Flying weakness lol.

I also wanna throw out support for Rock/Flying, Fire/Fighting, Dark, and Ice/Fighting as well.