CAP 36 - Part 2 - Concept Assessment

[SHSP]

CAP 36 So Far

After some close polling, our concept is Help Yourself by Pipotchi!

Name - Help Yourself

Description - This defensive Pokémon sets the stage for its own cleaning later on.

Justification - We are exploring and trying to mesh two roles- defensive Pokémon and cleaner. "Cleaner" does not have a set definition on the Smogon Dictionary, but in this context we should consider it as an endgame Pokémon that can sweep a heavily weakened enemy team without using moveslots for boosting moves like Swords Dance. Examples include Iron Moth and Specs Dragapult. "Defensive" is a term that can cover a wider range of valid roles, as long as they work towards an advantageous endgame situation for the cleaner. Some examples include Ting-Lu and Moltres.

Questions to be answered -

• How will this mon handle the various crippling tools of the tier that defensive Pokémon are supposed to take in place of offensive mons, knowing that it needs to transform into an offensive form later?
• As a speedy mon, how will this Pokémon match up to dominant fast Pokémon like Dragapult and Hemogoblin? How will this matchup affect its viability?
• What type of support do cleaners from different team archetypes (balance, weather, etc) value most and how does it differ between archetypes?
• What are some mono-types that contain both strong offensive dual types and strong defensive dual types? Can we find a pair of typings (with a shared type) that both make the offensive version offensively strong and defensively weak, and the defensive version the opposite?
• How does the speed of the Relic Song user affect its awkwardness? Is it better to Relic Song before or after the opponent moves?

This is a Pokémon that must share its moveslots between two forms, and for that reason:

• What coverage moves would do best in the tier when it comes to cleaning with the fewest possible moves?
• What defensive tasks can be performed in the fewest possible moves?
• Are there attacks in the tier that could be used for both cleaning and incremental damage?
• How can this mon find a strong EV middle-ground between being capable defensively and also powerful and fast enough offensively?
• What abilities can help alleviate the lack of moveslots, acting as an additional move for the purpose of either defense or cleaning?
• Can Relic Song be made into a useful attack for one or both forms, rather than just a transformation tool?

Explanation - One of the most frivolous roles in modern Pokémon has been the "cleaner"- a very fast Pokémon that simply takes out the trash once the enemy team has been weakened enough, usually by outspeeding the remaining Pokémon and ohkoing them from their remaining HP percentage. Nowadays, this is a trait which is tacked onto other mons with more solid purposes for being added to a team. Examples include Iron Valiant- which provides either sweeping with CM or extremely solid anti-sweep with Encore, or Hemogoblin who is very capable of sweeping.
Its rare, however, for a mon to be able to be both a cleaner and defensive Pokémon. These two roles tend to sit at the far opposite ends of the spectrum in all ways- cleaners of the past are more likely to be single-use and aim for big hits, while defensive mons want to switch in and out all game and lean towards incremental damage that can stack up despite lack of investment, or performing other tasks to give their team an advantage. It'll be interesting to combine the two halves of the same strategy inside of one mon: the defensive mon "sets the stage" for the cleaner by crippling and chipping down the opposing team. It could also make the cleaner's job easier by enabling teammates such as wallbreakers to break down the opponent.
In CAP, we rarely explore the upper tier of speed- Hemogoblin being a rare exception, so a true cleaner in the ranks of Iron Val, Deoxys-Speed and Dragapult would be a new frontier for us.
Now, we have had all-rounders in the past- Cresceidon and arguably Kitsunoh could be called defensive mons that can clean- but these mons offer a very different playstyle thanks to their ability to attack and defend at once- Meloetta forms can be much more extreme in their offensive/defensive capabilities and also separate them from each other, resulting in the player needing to be more strategic. It should be a great way to explore the unique framework we find ourselves with.

Guidelines:
1) Pay close attention to the Topic Leader during this discussion. Their job is to keep us focused and to bring insight.
2) Do not poll jump. Poll jumping is a serious offense in these threads, and you can get infracted for it. Poll jumping is when you discuss something that should be discussed in the future, like specifying a CAP's stats or typing. You're allowed to hint at such things to conclude a point or to provide an example, but do not centralize your post on a poll jump. Poll jumping hurts the focus of early threads and can cause us to go off on a tangent. If you're not sure if a particular argument is poll jumping or not, err on the side of caution and don't post it.

Now I'm going to hand it over to... well, myself, for the opening post!

 

[SHSP]

Alright! After some real tight polling, we have a concept, and plenty to discuss with it! Help Yourself is really interesting, and I want to get everyone's first thoughts on it with a few questions out of the gate:

The concept specifies that we are a "defensive" Pokemon that turns into a "cleaner" later in the match, with the defensive elements setting up that late-game cleaning. How do you interpret these roles and how they interact with each other? How can a cleaner be set up for success?

The form change we have is clearly going to play an important role in the creation of CAP 36, and the success of our concept. How does this concept interact with how our form change works and the restrictions placed upon it?

restrictions

Must change forms with a Relic Song clone- same base power, 10% chance of a secondary effect that exists as a chance-based effect (i.e. stat raise/drop, status, flinching). Relic Song clone can be any type, and potentially a different category of move (away from "sound" as a class of moves) or physical instead of special, but the bar will be very high to create these changes. Both forms will have the same BST and HP stat, and will share the same ability and one typing.

What stands out as the biggest challenges to successfully performing either of these roles? What stands out as the biggest challenges to doing both at once? Additionally, what stands out as strong points with this concept? What will a successful CAP 36 be able to accomplish that gives it a strong niche?

I wanna set a preliminary 48 hour warning on this opening stage of discussion. Looking forward to seeing what everyone's got to say!

 

[Gekokeso]

How do you interpret these roles and how they interact with each other? How can a cleaner be set up for success?

Most straightfoward answer to this question is sweepers who are able to provide some sort of utility throughout a match yet have some sort of setup option that allows them to clean in the endgame. Examples of this are Calm mind Clefable and Curse Garganacl. Both pokémon have options of forcing progress on an opposing team through methods like Salt Cure or Twave, which allows them to provide utility for their teams. Later, when deemed appropiate, they can shift for a more agressive approach like Calm Mind or Curse to be able to sweep the opposing team. Usually they manage to do this despite movepool restrictions via having a STAB so solid that its able to break through teams alone just by gaining enough boosts to bruteforce their way on weaker teams.

How does this concept interact with how our form change works and the restrictions placed upon it?
The most likely answer is that our form change will most likely change our defensive and offensive matchups in a whim. This can be seen as an advantage as we can design one form as a strictly defensive one while making the cleaner form slightly more overtuned and ready for sweeping. It puts way less of a strain on stats since we can go all in on the defensive and offensive aspects of this mon without worrying too much about bst.

What stands out as the biggest challenges to successfully performing either of these roles?
The most notable challenge for this concept will undoubtably be our limited movepool. We will need to sacrifice one of our moveslots to the form changing move, then have to slot some sort of utility in there while still having moves to break weakened teams. The form changing move can also be a bit of an issue since most of the time it won't be doing much other than the form change, so it will most likely force us to work with 3 moves per moveslot. This in turn can make this CAP somewhat predictable as the design space allowed to make it work as well as its set variety will be very limited.

Additionally, what stands out as strong points with this concept?
As mentioned before, stats and typing are not restricted to trying to perform either both defensively and offensively, we can make each form perform in one manner then switch to the other one to perform the other function. Utility packing cleaners like Clefable, NP Venomicon and SD Gliscor have consistently had roles in various metas due to the role compression they provide, which means that if executed properly this concept will not only have a nice chance at viability, but will also serve as a potentially healthy addition to the tier.

 

[ausma]

A few CAPs ago, I posited a concept that is exactly like the one we have chosen here called Greedy Gadgets. I bring this up because I did a deep dive into Abilities and Moves that I felt would effectively capture a concept like this. Obviously this isn't the time to talk about specific options just yet, but I mention it specifically because I already had the luxury of digging through the Move/Ability dexes to analyze what is important for a Pokemon of this archetype to have access to. If you want to see that I'll post it to the CAP discord.

In short: moveslot and utility compression were not just omnipresent among the options I personally saw, but I would go as far as to say it's mandatory for this concept to work, especially since there's an extra dimension here where we want to use a move dedicated to changing our form (which in itself should be a spammable type). I believe a more resilient form (not necessarily a wall, but something like Alomomola or Tornadus-T that's capable of handling and bouncing back from punishment via their fundamentals) that can make use of these moves in a more spammable way, in contrast with a more dedicated, fast offensive form that can reap the reward of these spammable, progress-making options (moves like Hex, for example) would really help lean into this dichotomy. We need to use our form change to leverage our own ability to make progress, consider how the intrinsic elements of progress-making moves can be converted into an advantage, and then determine which intrinsic elements are most valuable for our gameplan/can most feasibly be converted into an advantage. I believe this is something that has to be done pretty early on, too, since there are different ways we can "help ourselves" get from point A to point B that lend well to different stat builds.

Regardless of the avenue we take with that, I think we absolutely need moves that can make some level of progress that are meaningful for CAP 36, but also can simultaneously serve a different role. In other words, these move and ability options should help serve to create progress that's meaningful in leveraging a sweeping/wallbreaking gameplan, but also do something else, such as serving as a primary STAB move or filling a designated team role (such as removal). The main reason we want this is to encourage usage of the move as much as possible, such that we can more easily convert our advantage later in the game.

 

[Sqookblooks]

Currently busy with some stuff, so I'll answer the other three questions later, but I wanted to put special attention on this one specific one because I do think it will definitely be the biggest challenge we will face when implementing the concept with the added framework.

What stands out as the biggest challenges to successfully performing either of these roles?

Simply put, the biggest challenge I think we might face un-ironically is the whole issue with Meloetta-Pirouette where transforming is not worth giving up a moveslot on an otherwise solid pokemon. For example, if the defensive form of the CAP mon is a good enough wall, we run the risk of players just foregoing the whole transformation aspect and just running the defensive pokemon on its own merit. In an ideal situation, after you click the Relic Song clone, you would never want to transform back into the defensive pokemon as you would be sweeping through the rest of the team which would make the Relic Song clone kind of a dead slot on the defensive form. If the player does swap to cleaner form mid-game, then the player has to contend with not having a defensive wall for walling duties when the cleaner form is inevitably forced out by a faster/stronger pokemon which is a massive risk and strain in practice. This differentiates CAP 36 from mons like Gliscor/Clefable/Garganacl because even if you do have to swap out Gliscor/Clefable/Garganacl, they will still retain most of their defensive merits when swapping back in. In addition, there will probably be plenty of games where players will not need to pull out the cleaner form anyways which would likely contribute to players wanting to drop the cleaner form in favor of a pure defensive mon.

In other words, the cleaner form has to be good enough that it is worth potentially making your team easier to break, and the defensive mon can't be so good that it's utility justifies foregoing the cleaner in favor of another cleaner pokemon. We also probably can't make the cleaner pokemon too good, or else it would become extremely toxic and broken. To me, this is the central tension of this CAP 36 project, and the success in the mon's creation depends on how we navigate through this balance.

I'm less concerned with limited moveslots, however, because in practice, I think there are enough 3-move combinations that can be used in either a cleaning or defensive context if our stats allow for it between the two forms. In addition, mons like Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Tornadus-T in the past can give us inspiration on how to build a defensive mon with offensive capabilities without needing all the trappings of a typical wall (i.e no pure recovery move for those three mons).

I'm not sure if this is intentional, but this assessment seems to imply that CAP36 would stay in the secondary form after switching. Is this your intention? (If CAP36 is mechanically consistent re: form changes, I would assume that it would reset to its primary form on switch-out.)

EDIT: I'm actually a dumbass. Forgot that Meloetta doesn't stay in Pirouette form when switched out, though I guess that kind of goes to show how useless Pirouette is in any context. Ignore that point. I do think my argument largely stands though concerning the issue with making a mon that would want to use the cleaner form.

 

[Spammernoob]

How do you interpret these roles and how they interact with each other? How can a cleaner be set up for success?

The classic example would be Pokemon like Mega Glalie, Syclant, Greninja, Ogerpon which can set Spikes in the midgame to set up for a lategame sweep. Another example is cleaners like Weavile, Deoxys-S which use Knock Off to allow hazards to wear down their checks. We can also consider Pokemon like Dragapult which wear down its checks over the course of the game either via pivoting moves or status.

How does this concept interact with how our form change works and the restrictions placed upon it?

A defensive/support form allows this Pokemon to use its support moves without risking as much HP. On the flip side, this also means it generates less free turns where it forces a Pokemon out with offensive pressure.
The form change being tied to Relic Song means that Relic Song is effectively a setup move (that bypassese Taunt). This is pretty interesting, but it also means we can't really use Relic Song as a reliable STAB while cleaning.
The stats and typing are probably not very limiting on what we can do here.

What stands out as the biggest challenges to successfully performing either of these roles?

The aforementioned 4MSS is obviously a problem, but there are also issues of EV investment and HP management. This Pokemon has to balance investment in HP, defenses, speed, and offenses, which will inevitably compromise its performance in one of the two roles (also stat submitters will have to benchmark with Steam Buns spreads). Additionally, it has to carefully manage HP while performing a support role, so that it has enough HP to transform and deal with any potential priorty the opponent has.

Additionally, what stands out as strong points with this concept?

Form changes are cool, and there is a lot of flexibility here. I'm sure people who are smarter than me can make it somehow work.

 

[Wulfanator]

What stands out as the biggest challenges to successfully performing either of these roles?
Given the nature of this concept, the Relic Song clone should be treated as a dead slot until we’re ready to transform. Spammernoob’s connection to setup moves is fitting, but, unlike other setup, we’re only ever clicking the move once. This means the Pokémon is effectively operating with just three moves, and these moves must be capable of supporting both roles.

Due to moveslot limitations, there are certain defensive niches we simply won’t be able to achieve without compromising our effectiveness in the cleaner form. As such, we should avoid passive wall approaches (e.g., Blissey, Skarmory, Hippowdon) and instead focus on defensive roles that can apply pressure when needed (e.g., Heatran, Zapdos, Tornadus-T, Ting-Lu, Melmetal). Striking a balance between semi-reliable utility and strong offensive moves will be crucial to making the most of our three available slots.

Additionally, I believe it would be beneficial to discuss the moveset earlier in the project. Structuring the process as Typing > Moveset > Ability > Stats would allow us to use later stages, such as ability and stats, to compensate for any shortcomings in our moveset.

 

[Antsaya]

Currently busy with some stuff, so I'll answer the other three questions later, but I wanted to put special attention on this one specific one because I do think it will definitely be the biggest challenge we will face when implementing the concept with the added framework.

What stands out as the biggest challenges to successfully performing either of these roles?

Simply put, the biggest challenge I think we might face un-ironically is the whole issue with Meloetta-Pirouette where transforming is not worth giving up a moveslot on an otherwise solid pokemon. For example, if the defensive form of the CAP mon is a good enough wall, we run the risk of players just foregoing the whole transformation aspect and just running the defensive pokemon on its own merit. In an ideal situation, after you click the Relic Song clone, you would never want to transform back into the defensive pokemon as you would be sweeping through the rest of the team which would make the Relic Song clone kind of a dead slot on the defensive form. If the player does swap to cleaner form mid-game, then the player has to contend with not having a defensive wall for walling duties when the cleaner form is inevitably forced out by a faster/stronger pokemon which is a massive risk and strain in practice. This differentiates CAP 36 from mons like Gliscor/Clefable/Garganacl because even if you do have to swap out Gliscor/Clefable/Garganacl, they will still retain most of their defensive merits when swapping back in. In addition, there will probably be plenty of games where players will not need to pull out the cleaner form anyways which would likely contribute to players wanting to drop the cleaner form in favor of a pure defensive mon.

In other words, the cleaner form has to be good enough that it is worth potentially making your team easier to break, and the defensive mon can't be so good that it's utility justifies foregoing the cleaner in favor of another cleaner pokemon. We also probably can't make the cleaner pokemon too good, or else it would become extremely toxic and broken. To me, this is the central tension of this CAP 36 project, and the success in the mon's creation depends on how we navigate through this balance.

I'm less concerned with limited moveslots, however, because in practice, I think there are enough 3-move combinations that can be used in either a cleaning or defensive context if our stats allow for it between the two forms. In addition, mons like Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Tornadus-T in the past can give us inspiration on how to build a defensive mon with offensive capabilities without needing all the trappings of a typical wall (i.e no pure recovery move for those three mons).

I'm not sure if this is intentional, but this assessment seems to imply that CAP36 would stay in the secondary form after switching. Is this your intention? (If CAP36 is mechanically consistent re: form changes, I would assume that it would reset to its primary form on switch-out.)

 

[Da Pizza Man]

What stands out as the biggest challenges to successfully performing either of these roles?

The most obvious problem we are going to be facing with this concept by far is moveslot compression. We already know going in that we are going to be running our Relic Song clone, which like Wulfanator said, is functionally a dead slot until we are ready to transform. Furthermore, given the defensive nature of our base form, it's fairly likely (Although not guaranteed) that we are going to want to run some sort of recovery, which takes up another slot. This means that it's fairly likely that we are only going to have two moves to work with here, and even if we want to assume the best case scenario that we aren't going to be running recovery, that still only leaves three slots which isn't much better. Furthermore, those moves have to feel at least okay to click in both forms, unless we want to risk one or both of the forms having to deal with having to work with multiple dead slots, which I don't feel is a very good idea here. My stance here is that our base form obviously wants to be running moves that offer it some sort of utility to prevent it from becoming super passive, while the alternate form obviously wants to run moves that are strong enough to allow it to preform its job as a cleaner. Finding what combination of moves can best fulfil both of these requirements within our limited moveslots is not impossible, but it's going to be fairly challenging.

Another issue that isn't quite as obvious (and for this reason, hasn't really been mentioned in the thread all that much) is trying to determine what sort of investment CAP36 is going to want to run. Our base form obviously wants to prioritize defenses, but our alternate form very much wants to invest in offenses. While there is some overlap in speed for both forms (As it's the one stat that both offensive and defensive mons find very important), it's not a strong enough overlap to give us a perfectly optimal ev spread for both forms. This, in combination with the BST Restriction, is going to place a pretty heavy burden on the stats stage, and is something that we have to consider.

I'll answer the other questions tomorrow. It's near 11pm my time and I need some sleep.

 

[dex]

What stands out as the biggest challenges to successfully performing either of these roles?

I think a challenge that hasn't been discussed much yet is the absolute glut of incredible defensive mons in the tier. It is, frankly, very difficult to make it as a defensive option in SV because you're contending with the waters (Arghonaut, Dondozo, Cresceidon), the grounds (Gliscor, Equilibra, Ting-Lu), and a bunch of other incredible dudes like Clefable, Garganacl, etc. These defensive Pokemon are pretty specialized at doing one thing very well. I do fear a bit that the forme-change gimmick CAP 36 wants to interact with may leave it outclassed by the tier's dedicated defensive Pokemon. Accordingly, I think we should be more liberal in our definition of what a defensive Pokemon means for this concept. Providing defensive utility and being a defensive Pokemon are not the same thing. Melmetal provided defensive utility in SS CAP through its bulk and typing but no one would call it a defensive Pokemon. I think focusing on that aspect of defense, providing a few qualities without being married to the role of wall or defensive pivot, would give CAP 36 a higher chance of success.

 

[AzothBend]

The concept specifies that we are a "defensive" Pokemon that turns into a "cleaner" later in the match, with the defensive elements setting up that late-game cleaning. How do you interpret these roles and how they interact with each other? How can a cleaner be set up for success?

Simply put, defensive Pokemon take hits for their team. They can do that in a few ways, even if it doesn't involve taking damage. "Cleaner" is probably too specific of a term. Very few dedicated late game offensive Pokemon exist; and considering it likely won't have the same immediate offensive pressure, CAP36 should not try to compete directly with the handful that do. Broadly, it could be understood as an offensive Pokemon that does not rely on set up and cannot normally threaten OHKOs (requiring assistance from its team by way of chip damage, hazards, status, etc).

Within the bounds of the concept, CAP36 is both the "cleaner" and the primary teammate assisting it.

The form change we have is clearly going to play an important role in the creation of CAP 36, and the success of our concept. How does this concept interact with how our form change works and the restrictions placed upon it?

The mechanics of Relic Song and the ensuing transformation is a major consideration. Defensively, we want to incentivize CAP36 to actually utilize Relic Song. That can be accomplished in a few ways. Primarily, that could be limiting the offensive potential of the base form. While not strictly necessary, choosing a type and bias for Relic Song that does not have clearly better alternatives may also help.

Offensively, regarding the move as "dead weight" is short-sighted, but CAP36 should rely on its secondary STAB in the offensive form to drive most of its momentum. This can be complimented by maximizing coverage across its forms' secondary types. Relic Song also does not need to be inherently considered a one-time use move. As an example scenario, consider the only hurdle to CAP36 sweeping is a defensive check to its other offensive coverage. If Relic Song can damage this defensive check and flip the match up, CAP36 could simply click Relic Song twice, thereby further weakening the check or resetting its form against whatever switches in on the second turn.

What stands out as the biggest challenges to successfully performing either of these roles? What stands out as the biggest challenges to doing both at once? Additionally, what stands out as strong points with this concept? What will a successful CAP 36 be able to accomplish that gives it a strong niche?

Others have called out the inherent move slot limitation; there's no need in retreading for this post. Instead consider the second biggest issue CAP36 will run into: EV limitation. A defensive Pokemon without bulk investment probably isn't taking many hits. Likewise an offensive Pokemon without attack investment probably isn't cleaning much. That leaves CAP36 in the awkward space of being a jack of all trades, master of none. There's a couple ways to get around this and cut down on EV demands:

1. Both forms are decently fast such that they both appreciate speed investment
2. Both forms are slow and the offensive form abuses priority to mitigate it
3. CAP36 abuses the singular move that allows it defense to be used offensively

To that same end, the defensive form should rely more on one or two of strong resistances and immunities, chip damage, status spreading, or pivoting. Recovery and too many defensive strengths may lead to a failure of concept were CAP36 ignores Relic Song altogether in favor of pure defensive sets.

Ideally, the strongest benefit of the concept is CAP36 forgoes some move slot variety, trading it instead for team variety by compressing two roles into a single Pokemon.

 

[Pipotchi]

How do you interpret these roles and how they interact with each other? How can a cleaner be set up for success?
Ive seen it mentioned that "Defensive" can have a wider range than just standard walls like Alomomola or Blissey- mons like defensive Heatran, defensive Rotom-W, defensive Great Tusk etc have been defensive staples throughout the years, and I agree that these "tanks" are a fitting option for defensive role that comes with the benefit of transitioning a little easier into a cleaner, due to having offensive stats that can use the cleaner's moves without them being dead slots and Relic Song becoming a damaging attack that can threaten a KO, saving some precious tempo. I just wanted to say that I think this type of thing still aligns with the original concept as long as we are being honest about the mon being a defensive cornerstone and making incremental progress for the team/form 2 (for instance, Roaring Moon has some defensive qualities and technically has incremental progress with knock/u-turn but I think it would be very disingenuous to try and group it as a "defensive" pokemon). Obviously we would probably want to avoid granting the tools used by the offensive versions of these mons listed above (depending on whether it stops being a defensive mon), and try and lead it down the defensive path.

How does this concept interact with how our form change works and the restrictions placed upon it?
I like the idea that the form change, while being an overall weak attack, can instead be considered like a really powerful setup move thanks to our intentions for it to transform the mon into a cleaner. Not only can it increase your offensive stat and speed by a large amount, it can also act like a terastalization to grant you a free turn by gaining a resist to the move coming at you- and it can do all that while chipping/KOing the opposing Pokemon! Its like Dragon Dance + Tera on crack provided we give it really nice stats when changing- even though it can only be done once, it can be enough.
Some defensive mons will run a setup move to close out the game, and I think our form change could take some inspiration from these types of moves. For instance, a lot of all-purpose wincon mons will run CM or SD/Nasty Plot, and perhaps a second form that simulates these boosts instead of what I naturally assumed (+some offense, +tons of speed) could be smart routes to consider for a cleaner.

What stands out as the biggest challenges to successfully performing either of these roles?
Aside from things mentioned already, a big challenge for this mon will be staying healthy enough to perform a cleaning role later in the game. Our defensive mon will likely find itself getting chipped down by uturn, targeted by knock off, burns and paralysis, getting tricked with choice items, etc. Our cleaner form may be at risk of getting neutralized before it even gets a chance to come out. We either need to make our mon resilient to things like para/burn, or we need to choose a typing that switches in on less bothersome mons that dont inflict the worst kinds of crippling effects.
Since we have to take a turn to Relic Song before we can clean, we probably want to lean more into checking other defensive mons and tanks, due to their lower damage output- rather than monster sweepers/breakers like Roaring Moon that leave us at 1HP after trading with it.


Additionally, what stands out as strong points with this concept?
I think we have a pretty good chance to slam an absolute ton of role compression into a single mon here, and that could help it be a good teambuilding asset. Also, I think this is a good chance for us in general to push our limits due to the cleaner form being locked behind Relic Song / needing to justify clicking Relic Song. Its a safe place for us to add something that is outside of what we usually limit ourselves to, because it won't be able to simply slap on a Choice item or run a boosting move and explode the tier.

 

[quziel]

A lot of this debate is going to be around what counts as defensive. I would like to propose a very expansive and simple definition.

A defensive mon is part of your team's defensive core and is expected to switch in on hits more than once.

This covers a lot of stuff. From Pursuit Mega Ttar, Protox Melm, to Dtail Espeed Dnite. All of these mons are at least partially defensive mons, and crucially all of them run max Attack. I'm making this point because we need both formes of this CAP to share the same moveset, item, and EVs, and we also want to incentivize it to transform.

I believe a full wall, something like Knock/Tox/Haze/Recover Pex is doomed to fail here, and if we choose a defensive role that needs to dedicate too many resources to well, defensive stuff, we're flirting with a mon that will just drop Relic Song and choose to go all in on walling instead. If we instead go more towards accepting a Tank as our defensive role, a mon that naturally is going to struggle a bit with longevity, and wants to go out with a Bang! then we're probably also making a mon that can more easily run Relic Song to well, achieve said Bang!

 

[Rabia]

A lot of this debate is going to be around what counts as defensive. I would like to propose a very expansive and simple definition.

A defensive mon is part of your team's defensive core and is expected to switch in on hits more than once.

This covers a lot of stuff. From Pursuit Mega Ttar, Protox Melm, to Dtail Espeed Dnite. All of these mons are at least partially defensive mons, and crucially all of them run max Attack. I'm making this point because we need both formes of this CAP to share the same moveset, item, and EVs, and we also want to incentivize it to transform.

I believe a full wall, something like Knock/Tox/Haze/Recover Pex is doomed to fail here, and if we choose a defensive role that needs to dedicate too many resources to well, defensive stuff, we're flirting with a mon that will just drop Relic Song and choose to go all in on walling instead. If we instead go more towards accepting a Tank as our defensive role, a mon that naturally is going to struggle a bit with longevity, and wants to go out with a Bang! then we're probably also making a mon that can more easily run Relic Song to well, achieve said Bang!

this post encapsulates a lot of how I view this, and I even think Pokemon like SD fat Lando, CM Slowbro, SD Rhyperior, Curse Garg, and NP Venom fit this too. they're Pokemon that are used for their defensive profiles and early-game utility (hazards, status spreading, general tomfoolery GARG...), but they also can win you the battle late-game once they weaken their checks enough

 

[viol and bass]

Something I want to say about Relic Clone (which AzothBend touched on) is that in my opinion it shouldn't be looked at as a dead slot prior to the absolute endgame. Even mons that are basically supposed to function purely as cleaners often end up fulfilling other roles out of necessity during a match. Real games are messy. The concept is clear that CAP36 as a whole is not just an endgame mon. If it's on the field, there will be situations where clicking Relic Clone is correct. If we build the form change such that these forms are in any way complimentary (which we absolutely should and will be doing), there will be cases in battle where you want to click Relic Clone even in the early or mid game. It might be the right move to click when you're picking something off and don't want to allow free entry to something that outspeeds the base form, or maybe you transform to eliminate a weakness or gain a status immunity or whatever. Our moveslots our precious; we may not have the luxury of running another move of the same type as Relic Clone, so maybe it's just the only move that hits a certain threat. Maybe 36p manages to be an early/mid-game breaker against a particular team, etc. So overall I think Relic Clone will be a holistic part of our moveset. There may even be cases when you need to click Relic Clone late-game as 36p. That's not going against the spirit of the concept in any way, that's just how mons works.

What stands out as the biggest challenges to successfully performing either of these roles?

Inconsistency will be the biggest hurdle for us to clear, and it manifests in a myriad of different ways. Among other issues, 36p will be an offensive mon that cannot revenge kill, since it requires a free turn. This is definitely a bit of a liability, but it allows us to go a little more wild with stats. Very high speed could be on the table; it aids the role of cleaner while being locked behind a form change, so it cannot be used for some of the roles you'd typically rely on a fast pokemon for. This role issue and the EV allocation issue means we are probably allowed to have very high stats in certain areas if we are careful about it.

Finding ways to make this mon consistent will be a repeated theme throughout the process. Having most of your moveset be clickable no matter what the game state is will be pretty important to avoid a Meloetta redux. To that end, I agree with the consensus that we shouldn't limit ourselves to only a fully defensive role on 36base.

 

[a fairy]

Sorry for the short responses. Today's been a whirlwind. I'm using "clean" and "sweep" interchangeably in this post.

The concept specifies that we are a "defensive" Pokemon that turns into a "cleaner" later in the match, with the defensive elements setting up that late-game cleaning. How do you interpret these roles and how they interact with each other? How can a cleaner be set up for success?

I want to use two specific moves as examples, specifically Brine and Hex. The former is a mostly non-existent move in competitive 'mons that increases in power if the target is below half health, and the latter is a popular move that increases in power when used on a status'd 'mon. There are other examples I'm sure that aren't coming to mind, but there's so many defensive 'mons that contribute to a sweep, either via status or stuff like Ruination or even just the pressure of hazard chip.

I'm def not saying that this mon needs to be using Hex and a status or whatever, or a Ruination-type move + Brine, but often time sweepers are going to be choice locked or barely have the turns to setup their boosts, and appreciate sturdy early-game mons to set them up for success by weakening things, setting up hazards for the damage rolls, or even outright eliminating certain targets.

The form change we have is clearly going to play an important role in the creation of CAP 36, and the success of our concept. How does this concept interact with how our form change works and the restrictions placed upon it?

We have the changes that the form provides to bolster our 'mons forms to serve their purpose. Whether it's picking up a STAB for their sweep and dropping a defensive but offensively stunted type, shifting stats to better reflect what it needs to do, an ability change(if allowed?) to shift the utility, or even be the move of choice for the sweep itself, I think that we can make a lot of use the form change to lean into the dual-role purpose of our 'mon. I think a form change here strongly leans into this idea and can serve it a ton of purpose.

What stands out as the biggest challenges to successfully performing either of these roles?

What stands out as the biggest challenges to doing both at once? Additionally, what stands out as strong points with this concept? What will a successful CAP 36 be able to accomplish that gives it a strong niche?

Biggest challenge: Item and EVs. 4MSS maybe, sure, but for the most part item and EVs are set at teambuilder and can't be adjusted. Do you put in speed and attacking stat to sweep? HP and Defense to wall hits? Both and fail to accomplish either? Item as well - are you gonna lock in a Lefties or HDB to help with your walling, or commit to the Life Orb or (to use a past gen example) Z-Item to confirm the sweep?

Biggest strength: The flexibility to change typing is huge. Tera is so good specifically because of this! Typing is so massive that it can make or break a 'mon. Our ability to change type really is so powerful that it's going to be the major selling point down the line in future generations without Tera or whatever, I bet.

Again, sorry for the scattershot short thoughts, but I hope that the post adds something, maybe.

 

[Anchor9]

How do you interpret these roles and how they interact with each other? How can a cleaner be set up for success?
I think a defensive Pokemon that would best work for this concept is something that can fill a role similar to Great Tusk and Gholdengo, a Pokemon with excellent defensive uses and a threatening offensive profile. I would think a cleaner would be more like Choice Specs Dragapult or Expert Belt Darkrai and less like Roaring Moon or Garganacl. There are definitely ways for the defensive form to chip walls to help facilitate the offensive form without creating 4MMS, with stuff such as Knock Off, Psychic Noise, pivot moves, and Taunt.

How does this concept interact with how our form change works and the restrictions placed upon it?
This depends on what the goal is? Do we want a Pokemon that goes Defense to Offense to Defense repeatedly based on the situation? Or do we want a Pokemon that uses the Relic Song clone when the opportunity to clean opens itself? Option 1 means that this Pokemon MUST have some form of recovery in order to survive. Going Offense to Defense most likely will only be needed against a Pokemon that walls CAP 36. This means that CAP 36 will take chip while doing minimal damage back. Or CAP 36 will be forced to switch and take hazard chip later on. Option 2 means this Pokemon can have more of a Great Tusk profile, where recovery won't matter as much since you will only use this Pokemon when positioned extremely well.

What stands out as the biggest challenges to successfully performing either of these roles?
Moveslots and status avoidance will be some of the bigger problems in my opinion if we want the Relic Song clone to be used. The Pokemon needs to be able to easily fit Relic Song, meaning Relic Song needs to be a pretty spammable move, whether that should be STAB without an immunity or simply a great coverage move that complements the initial typing. I agree with Quziel that utility moves will definitely need to be more limited if we want a Pokemon that easily transitions to a cleaner. I would think the Pokemon needs to be more of a Great Tusk or Raging Bolt (meaning a Pokemon that doesn't need recovery too much) in order to avoid 4MSS. The ability stage can definitely help with longevity issues too. Status avoidance will definetly be an issue. This can be most easily answered based on the Pokemon's basic typing. The ability can also be a useful tool, or if BST is spread on the Special side to avoid burn issues.

Additionally, what stands out as strong points with this concept?
In my opinion, there are many directions this concept can go for that would work fine. Strong Defensive pivot that turns into a cleaner. Disruptive wall that turns into a cleaner. Regen wall that wears down the opponent and then turns into a cleaner. 4MMS can be avoided with the right typing and offensive utility moves. Longevity issues can be fixed with ability. Any status issue can be fixed with typing and / or ability. There are plenty of cool avenues for this concept and this process should be pretty flexible outside of Relic Song typing.

 

[Guingil]

What stands out as the biggest challenges to successfully performing either of these roles?​

An important consideration pip mentioned is the inherent contradiction between a defensive role and a setup cleaner. Because CAP 36 will often be switching in as part of a defensive core, it’ll inevitably get chipped, statused or otherwise crippled in the course of the battle. Thus, if it's used defensively, we cannot rely on CAP 36 cleaning as a primary or only win condition, especially because compared to other cleaners it would need an extra turn of Relic Clone (RC) as setup in a less than healthy state.

Off the top of my head, I see two paths in which we can proceed given this contradiction (others might have more):

1. Make it such that we can reliably bring in CAP 36 to forme change in the endgame and clean, while still outputting good defensive value (requires longevity/healing moves/bulk investment > compromise in offensive capability/moves)
Extreme case: If we make the cleaner weak and overly dependent on the base forme successfully implementing utility and remaining healthy enough to set up, what's to keep us from foregoing RC entirely for a solid defensive mon?

2. Make it such that if CAP 36 is brought in and can set up using RC, it can clean very efficiently (requires good coverage, offensive investment > compromises defensive function, might have to switch out early to avoid health loss)
Extreme case: If we make the second forme too strong offensively, what’s to prevent us from not bringing it at all at the start defensively and only using its defensive profile in the endgame to safely pull off RC setup and sweep?

I do not see straightforward ways to achieve both simultaneously (without making CAP 36 overpowered), especially given that we want to fit in RC as well. And I believe that optimising the mon towards either way in the building stage itself could very easily lead to the extreme cases. A more sensible approach to avoid these extremes is to make CAP 36 balanced and agnostic enough such that it can be played flexibly, and we can "bias" it towards either way with different sets (EVs, moves, choice of ability, etc) or even the state of the battle.

The more utility/defensive "enabler" build for CAP 36, for example, might have room in its moveset for pivoting, healing, or pure utility moves, while still keeping RC and a spammable neutral move for its second forme. Given our need for move compression, even this spammable move most likely needs utility.

On the other hand, a more offensive build that aims to use RC like a setup to break through at an opportune time could run more attacks (with some utility built in to them, of course) for good super effective coverage. It could function in a more passively defensive manner at the start through just its typing/ability/bulk, rather than having to devote moves for it; or, like AzothBend said, focus on damaging the would-be checks of the cleaner forme with its attacks. It might even not engage defensively anymore after it has achieved a goal to make its cleaning more efficient later (crippling a key check to the cleaner, status spread, hazard, etc)

I think both these defensive approaches fit within quziel’s definition of a defensive mon. A good comparison would be Pivot Glowking (utility/defensive) vs Assault Vest Glowking (passively defensive but active offense). For the cleaner, I think a good speed tier and decent offenses like the examples of Dragapult or Kitsunoh provided could be great, and could have enough flexibility to justify RC's use even before the endgame as AzothBend and viol and bass have explained.​

 

[Magic Mayhem Maiden]

I do want to talk about how I view the Forme Change. At minimum, CAP36 should use the Relic-Song-clone on the majority of its sets to succeed (if not required).

I view the Relic-Song-clone similar to a stat-boosting move. We are not actually changing much between Formes: the stat changes probably are equal or weaker than something like Dragon Dance/Agility, and Typing is the only other aspect to change. This means that CAP36 is not getting any more actual options to use in battle (since its moveset and ability stays).

The changing Typing is actually awkward for CAP36. The Relic-Song-clone is unreliable to sweep with (with 75 BP and turning back to the 1st Forme), so it needs one of the two STABs of its 2nd Forme. However, this leaves it lacking either type coverage, or a STAB in its 1st Forme. I feel that CAP36 requires three moveslots to be locked. If other people are also saying that Recover is mandatory, that does not leave this CAP with a lot of options. However, this can be mitigated somewhat if the offensive STAB combo is really, really good.

All being said, I do feel like we get a lot of benefit from using the Relic-Song-clone as a "stat-boosting" move, and we can lean into the unique aspects of it. The biggest difference is that it deals damage on the turn it's used, allowing it to safely pressure the opponent while also "boosting" (much like Torch Song). Changing types between forms also can grant CAP36 a crucial resistance or immunity. We also have the ability slot open if there is a specific role to fill.

CAP36 also benefits from Tera in interesting ways. How it works is: CAP36 will not change types after using Tera, and they keep the STAB boosts of its 1st Forme. (unless you tera in the 2nd Forme). An interesting application is using offensive Tera to bolster the 1st Forme's exclusive typing, allowing you to deal 2x damage even in the 2nd Forme. If instead CAP36 is running a defensive Tera, there are two opportunities for a major shift in battle: 1. when using it on the turn of the Relic-Song-clone, or 2. when a revenge killer enters afterwards. Notably, these two aspects can overlap.

 

[ZekoPlayzR6]

The obvious biggest challenge to me is the limited move slots. Having effectively a dead slot is, obviously, a handicap. Piggybacking off of Wulfanator (to an extent), starting on typing and moves should be the big focus. The type that IS carried over would, preferably, have to be good both defensively AND offensively, while the other type would have to match whichever form it's in.

More importantly; the move itself. To maximize benefit of the move, I personally think either raising a stat or inflicting a status effect would help the most. A stat raiser more so, because if you get the boost, then you can enter the fight with a +1 boost to a stat. If you don't, oh well, you still at least did chip damage (unless the opponent is immune.) Inflicting a status on the other hand may be able to cripple and maybe force a switch from the opponent, applying some pressure in that way.

Each of these have a degree of viability over the other; a status may be more potent. but the move would then be more valuable than a "dead" slot, in other words, people would want to click it more. A stat boost would be less impactful in the moment, but may prove to be more impactful in the long run.

However, if the route we go is staying in it's "cleaner" form upon transformation, allow me to propose something; if you used the RS clone (let's say as a HYPOTHETICAL it inflicts para) while it's in its "cleaner" form, it could revert back to its defensive form, allowing it to potentially tank a hit AND possibly cripple whatever's attacking it. This provides for some interesting mind games with C36, forcing switches and whatnot.

 

[SHSP]

Alrighty! Thanks everyone for the excellent discussion so far. I want to get some consensus takeaways down in writing and ask a few more questions here:

Our biggest challenges are with our moves and our EVs. The most mentioned threat to our concept's success is our very limited movepool: we're trying to do two different tasks with three moves, as our Relic Song is going to take up one of our moveslots from the jump. This poses a really large challenge right off the bat of finding ways to make those three slots effective for both our defensive form and our cleaner form, lest we run into issues actually performing one of our jobs. EVs are similar: we only have so many and our two forms mostly want opposite EVs, so we'll have to pay close attention to build a CAP that has really effective EV allocation. Other issues brought up that are important to note are with our item slot and with managing HP, where we'd need to have enough HP after being defensive to successfully clean up.

"Defensive" is flexible. We're not going to be successful if our defensive form is trying to be Toxapex. We have a lot of restrictions on that defensive nature, both through having the cleaner form and needing to make the cleaning aspect succeed, and in the concept itself making us want to directly set up our cleaning. Posts by Quziel and Rabia highlight that "defensive" as a role is not just super fat mons like Pex, though. We can make our form more tank-like in nature, still focusing on defense and defensive play without being overly passive, and use that active defense to set up our second form.

There's been some stuff in thread so far that I'd like to hear more about, as well:

How often are we changing our form? There's been a lot of different views on what Relic's purpose is in our kit. Some people are viewing it as a sort of a set-up move, where for the cost of a turn we are able to become significantly stronger/faster/etc and succeed through our other slots. Others are viewing it as a move the cleaner form is at times going to click in order to tank a hit better, play into our typing, etc. There's also a group that view Relic as a "dead slot," more or less- we click it once a game to clean and never anytime else. This has me curious to hear more detailed thoughts about how this should work? Are we transforming often, or are we transforming only once or twice? Should the offensive, cleaner form have incentive to change back? How dead of a move is Relic?

What form of defense are we most benefited from? Knowing that we should aim to have some sort of activeness in our defense, how should we look to do this? What sort of utility benefits both our defensive side and our cleaner half? What crosses the line and becomes too offensive?

I'm gonna put another soft 48 hour limit on this discussion. Thank you guys again for the amazing stuff so far!

 

[Dead by Daylight]

I'd say we should aim to be changing our form as often as is necessary. Not the hardline answer that I'd want if I was posing the question, so my apologies for that, but I feel that setting a defined target on how often our form needs to change unnecessarily hampers our CAP. For example, if we set a low limit, say 1-2 times, we end up with the defining move of our CAP not being all too useful. If we make it the main click of our CAP, we minimize the other attributes of its upcoming kit. I'd argue that our CAP should gain quite a big benefit from using the move correctly but have a headache when it tries to get back into the right form if it clicks Relic Song too many times. This means likely no instant healing or healing abilities, which would both help our CAP force far too many Relic Song clicks per game.

To answer the second question, I'd say we most benefit from having hazard removal, especially Rapid Spin. Another route we could go down is potentially, if the CAP ends up with no real recovery outside of Leftovers, a contact-punishing Protect move a la Spiky Shield or Burning Bulwark to weaken counters through endless chip damage. These two choices both give our CAP some utility in its defensive role, making it less of a Toxapex and more of, as many others mention, a Great Tusk-like foe that is both resilient and can easily clean up lategame. Giving this CAP a contact-punishing Protect clone also makes it able to punish the omnipresent utility moves in U-turn and Knock Off that often turn defensive 'mons into momentum sinks against things they would otherwise check.

 

[Anchor9]

How often are we changing our form? The amount of form changes CAP 36 has will most likely be defined on the longevity of CAP 36.
If it has great longevity, form changing will be flexible and useful. The Pokemon can lean harder into the defensive role of "wall" more. The cleaner mode can be less of a sweeper and more like a breaker. This path does seem to have 4MMS issues though since a recovery move will be necessary, unless the ability stage fixes this up of course. Status management will also be a larger issue too.
If CAP 36 has bad recovery, it probably will be a one time use. It will probably need to lean into a heavy-hitting tank that's decently fast in the defensive form so that it isn't easily chipped for free. Offensive form will need to be very effective at making an impact into the opposing team since it will most likely get one shot. I think 4MMS will be less of a problem, but I'm worried Relic Song clone will seem to be an unnecessary part of the kit since we'll have a Chuggalong moment where it's hit and miss and the usefulness of the offensive form will largely be determined by what threat is on the other side of the game.

What form of defense are we most benefited from? I think a safe bet can be attacking moves with utility, such as pivot moves, Psychic Noise, and Knock Off. Both offensive and Defensive sides greatly benefit from it. Offense gets pivoting, coverage, and wallbreaking tools, while Defensive gets defensive pivoting and utility. The rest, once again, I think this is pretty based on the longevity of CAP 36. I can see this Pokemon working as a Toxapex sort of mon as long as it isn't passive and has a way to recover health outside of Recover, because that will mean we have 4MMS issues. I can also see this Pokemon totally working as a Great Tusk sort of threat too.

Here's the two main ways I see this CAP going:

Defensive Wall (Toxapex, Alomomola)
- Longevity Path
- Prone to more 4MMS
- Prone to more status issues
- Offensive form can serve more as a breaker or strong pivot
- Preferably needs a reliable way to recover without a moveslot to avoid 4MMS. Can be fixed with ability.
- Needs a way to prevent status long-term. Can be fixed with typing / ability
- Is very flexible with utility as long as STAB combo is good for offensive form
- Defensive form will preferably be pretty slow so that offensive form is protected. However, it should hit decently hard so that this isn't a dead turn.

Defensive Tank (Great Tusk, Raging Bolt)
- Non longevity path
- Prone to Relic Song clone being more of a dead slot
- Requires decent Speed on defensive form to avoid unnecessary chip.
- Offensive form must be a strong sweeper or very strong breaker since it only gets one shot.
- Coverage will be the most important part so that offensive form is actually used.
- Passive utility such as Toxic / Thunder Wave / Rapid Spin practically cannot be used.
- Pivot utility is limited since mon probably will be forced to run Boots.
- Requires utility that the offensive form can use such as Knock Off / Psychic Noise.

 

[Amamama]

What form of defense are we most benefited from? Knowing that we should aim to have some sort of activeness in our defense, how should we look to do this? What sort of utility benefits both our defensive side and our cleaner half? What crosses the line and becomes too offensive?

Most Pokémon that perform a hybrid defensive role with an offensive lean are mostly defined by their stellar defensive Typing and far above average bulk, granting them lots of opportunities to come into play without having to rely on active recovery and other none proactive plays. This gives them room to apply pressure with powerful offenses that hit hard even without ev investment and use the opportunities this creates for providing utility for their team. Almost every successful Tank Pokemon I can think of both has above average defensive stats 100/90/90+ and 115+ Atk/Spa backed by high powered and spammable Stabs.
When you look at the list of mons that historically has played this hybrid defensive and offensive roles it is notable, that most of them have been Pseudo legendary, mythical or Legendary status Pokemon, with access to a lot of stats and powerful moves.
In addition to this powerful Stat and Typing Package a lot of these defensive pivots rely on abilities that add to their defensive utility, by debuffing the opponent (Intimidate, Flame Body, Static, Vessel of Ruin), increasing longevity (Regenerator, Magic Guard) or on the other hand powering up their already strong STABs (Iron Fist). A few instead rely on improving defenses (Flash Fire, Multiscale, Levitate).

Overall I don’t think it makes sense to look at any of these attributes separately. Realistically any good typing, ability and stat spread will benefit both forms as they are part of one Mon.
To me this also means there isn’t really a distinction between just right offensive and too offensive. As long as the two forms feel different when you play with them, we should have succeeded in making this distinction (yes this is a very esoterical view of the issue).

Most importantly, given the restrictions on our moveset though, I think we need to find as many attributes that help freeing up moveslots as possible.
For the defensive form this means great bulk that possibly even allows for offensive evs alongside great defensive typing, which enables defensive pivoting while taking little residual damage (immunities are great here). Ideally the typing still offers a strong STAB option (with baked in utility as cherry on top) possibly supported by above average offensive stats, that allow for early game pressure and defensive pivoting without requiring active healing turns.
On top of all that this Mon also wants an ability that alleviates the pressure on moveslots to enable it to run all the offensive tools, utility moves and sustain it requires for both roles.
Before anyone says, this is just making a Mon that has it all, look at the examples of this category of mons and tell me that these mons don’t have it all:
Landorus T, Heatran, Tornadus T, Melmetal, Zapdos, Moltres, Dragonite, Equilibra, Garchimp are all insanely stacked mons and there are only very few examples of this type of Mon that aren’t as stacked imo.

TLDR: this Mon wants it all :). But fr, while I believe that we don’t need to meet all of the above conditions to make this successful, we will have to give this Mon a good chunk of the attributes mentioned above. The discrepancy in EV allocation as well as moveset requirements for utility, longevity AND offensive pressure across two different forms with different stats and types, means we cannot slack in giving out very powerful options to both forms.
We are trying to make two full baked forms with half the resources. The ingredients have to be perfect otherwise we’ll end up with two half baked forms.

On that last thought: Not entirely sure atm but this to me feels sorta like we either completely ignore one form and go all out on the other one (this is more simple process wise, since we don’t have to wrap our heads around making a wholistic Mon with what we have) or we make sure to not view this Mon as two separate things and try to work as wholistically and integrated as possible (though this requires a laser focus I’m not sure I trust a democratic process to have).

 

[a fairy]

How often are we changing our form? ...

I'm probably closer to the dead slot group, though I think of myself as the first group. As these groups really different? I guess unless you, in-game, decide its to your benefit to do a mini sweep before the late game cleaning like the concept expects? But like, surely the first and third group are the same otherwise mostly - a preparatory/setup option when you're ready to go, but otherwise not a move you're going to use. I don't mind necessarily transforming often, especially with a type change that could be cool strategy-wise, but as a general thing I don't know that it's my default assumption. We've got two forms, one that in theory should be defensive and setting itself up for later, and then one that acts on its preparation to clean up. In my brain that indicates a single-time transformation, but maybe I'm missing something.

What form of defense are we most benefited from? ...

Our utility should have the means of preparing for our cleaner half, moreso than benefiting our defensive side. If our two forms are distinct and don't interact with each other, I think that builders are likely to just toss the RS-clone and the concept and rely on one of the forms to the exclusion of the other. I think the line of "too offensive" is quite flexible, and that our defensive profile should come from immutable(form aside) factors and parts of its identity and not from its moves at the cost of the sweeper side.