CAP 36 - Part 6 - Defining Moves

[spoo]

CAP36 So Far

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In this stage, we will develop a list of moves that will meaningfully affect future stages of the process for this CAP. These moves will need to be addressed in the stat limits and stat submission stages in order to contextualize submitted spreads. For example, a stat submission that elects to choose stronger Defining Moves from the "Choose At Least One" or "Optional" lists will be put under heavier scrutiny than those without them. The Movepool SL will organize these moves into the following lists, as needed:

1. Required: Stat spreads (or other future stages) must account for this move / these moves.
2. Choose At Least One: Stat spreads (or other future stages) must account for at least one of these moves.
3. Optional: Stat spreads (or other future stages) can elect to use these moves or not.

Moves that can be chosen as Defining Moves should be in the following categories:

• Boosting Moves
• Recovery Moves
• High Base-Power Moves
• Strong Utility Moves (self-switching moves, hazards, etc.)

Controversial moves or placements in lists can be sent to poll if the Movepool SL deems it necessary.

Please do not polljump by talking about specific stat spreads or suggesting specific abilities (outside of those already voted for by the community).

 

[spoo]

Welcome everyone to the Defining Moves stage! With our typing and ability now decided, we've finally arrived at the highly-anticipated moves portion of the process. For anyone following the discussion up to now, it should come as no surprise that assembling a coherent and effective moveset will be one of the most important and most challenging parts of this whole process. SHSP outlined a couple reasons why, all the way back during Concept Assessment:

The most mentioned threat to our concept's success is our very limited movepool: we're trying to do two different tasks with three moves, as our Relic Song is going to take up one of our moveslots from the jump. This poses a really large challenge right off the bat of finding ways to make those three slots effective for both our defensive form and our cleaner form, lest we run into issues actually performing one of our jobs.

The biggest challenge is right there in the first sentence: we need to construct a moveset out of only three moves that is able to serve both a wall/tank and a cleaner. Moreover, we have to consider how the transformation is being actively incentivized or discouraged by this moveset. CAP Song was never going to be a particularly strong move to begin with, but with No Guard chosen as our ability, it's shaping up to have a much lower BP relative to the rest of our moveset, making it an even weaker option. We need to be mindful of choosing moves that would make the base form so self-sufficient as to drop CAP Song entirely. And on top of all of this, our moveset needs to move us closer towards the concept: enabling the base form to cripple or weaken the opposing team, "setting the stage" for the pirouette form to clean up later.

So we've got to choose moves that can function on both an offensive and defensive chassis, that can methodically put the opposing team into position to be cleaned, that won't completely overshadow the strength of our transformation, and with one moveslot already being taken up by CAP Song––I'd say we have our work cut out for us. With that context out of the way, let's get into some questions.

​

1. The buzz around Inferno was one major reason that No Guard won as our ability. Zap Cannon also popped up in discussions, though to a lesser extent. Deciding whether or not these moves make it into our final movepool will inform everything about how the rest of our moveset is constructed. Should these moves be required, optional, or left off our Defining Moves list entirely?​

​

2. No Guard's interaction with other high-BP moves like Blizzard, Thunder, Hydro Pump, and Fire Blast was another reason it was a popular ability choice. Focusing specifically on non-STAB coverage, what other powerful moves should we consider as required or optional?​

​

3. Our concept asks us to "sets the stage for [our] own cleaning later on". What are some moves that are particularly effective in this regard? Conversely, are there any moves, or categories of moves, that would be active detriments to the concept?​

​

A reminder: as a result of this PRC thread, the following moves will be automatically assumed, either due to their universal distribution among the respective types, or their function in establishing a baseline of power for our movepool.

Universally Assumed Moves

Fire

Fire Blast
Flare Blitz
Will-O-Wisp
Flamethrower
Overheat
Heat Wave

Steel

Flash Cannon
Iron Head
Steel Beam
Iron Defense

Ice

Ice Beam
Blizzard
Icicle Spear or Icicle Crash or Ice Punch
Avalanche
At least one of Icicle Crash or Ice Spinner

Gen 9 Universal Moves

Endure
Facade
Helping Hand
Protect
Rest
Sleep Talk
Substitute
Take Down
Tera Blast

Lastly, this is the stage where we'll be deciding the mechanics of CAP Song, namely its secondary effect. We'll do this at the very end of the stage, so for now just hold your horses.

That's all for now, so hop to it! I'll drop a 24hr warning before we move on from these questions.

 

[Ayecrusher King]

1. Regarding Zap Cannon, I'd say that it should be left off the list. If we're already built around burning with Inferno, then Zap Cannon's appeal - that being offensive Paralysis - becomes a mutually exclusive option. 'Course, if for whatever reason we decide that Inferno's too good, then - and only then - should Zap Cannon be reconsidered.
2. If we're talking specifically non-STAB, Focus Blast comes to mind, as then we'll be hitting opposing CAP 36 and Fire-resistant Steel-types super-effectively. Also relating to the above question, if we do want electric-coverage, Thunder's a more appealing optional alternative anyway, what with double PP for ten less BP and not blocked by Bulletproof.
3. Just gonna nominate this officially, but Freeze-Dry should at the very least be considered among Required. With Freeze-Dry, we have an option to hit bulky Water-types if Electric-type coverage is redundant (such as to hit Water/Ground-types), at the cost of more immediate power. Also to deter the option later, please can we officially ban Sheer Cold as well?

 

[dex]

Should these moves be required, optional, or left off our Defining Moves list entirely?

Inferno should be required. Inferno is the justification for No Guard, it would be foolish not to give it to the mon. The other moves that fit this description are Zap Cannon and Dynamic Punch (no, Supersonic would not see play). I think Dynamic Punch would not see play on this mon, as it is a special attacker, and I think the combination of Zap Cannon and Inferno is extremely overbearing. Pokemon have run Zap Cannon in the past without No Guard, so I think it is just too strong of a move to really work with meaningfully in this instance.

Focusing specifically on non-STAB coverage, what other powerful moves should we consider as required or optional?

I think Thunder is a great option to include as an optional move. It is only slightly stronger than Freeze-Dry vs. most Water-types, so the power increase isn't too much of a concern, and it does coincide very well with CAP 36's gameplan of spreading status early. I think Thunder very neatly ties the two formes together similarly to Inferno and it should be an available tool for CAP 36. Hydro Pump, on the other hand, I don't think should on the Defining Moves list. Hydro Pump is similar to Thunder in that it flips the matchup on some pressures; however, it does not really gel well with the base forme's gameplan of creating progress through status and is purely a coverage move for the song forme, so I don't think it's actually an option that is that good for CAP 36's balance between the formes. Maybe you could include it with some penalties, but I'm really just not a fan of Hydro Pump. No other lower accuracy non-legendary signature special attacks really jump out at me as worth talking about because Fire/Ice coverage is pretty expansive, so other low accuracy moves like Focus Blast and Hurricane don't really matter.

What are some moves that are particularly effective in this regard? Conversely, are there any moves, or categories of moves, that would be active detriments to the concept?

Knock Off is a move that does things. I wasn't a fan of this move but someone compared it to Knock Off Walking Wake and I think that comparison actually works pretty well, where you trade pivoting for setup. Beyond Knock Off, I think there could be a case for Taunt, but it's hard to justify on a moveset that needs to serve both formes well. Rapid Spin is also something I could see working, but again, it doesn't really set the stage for its sweep later beyond the Speed, which I think stats can handle well enough. I think things like Defog, Encore, and non-damaging status moves are too slow or don't work with the concept well enough to be worth pursuing. TL;DR is Knock Off is worth looking into as an optional move, Taunt and Rapid Spin have some potential but I'm not totally convinced on them, and I don't really see anything else working here.

 

[Brown4Sides]

I haven't participated in genuine process discussions in over a year, so I'm a bit rusty admittedly. But I've been reading on what we have so far and I'll do my best here.

​

1. The buzz around Inferno was one major reason that No Guard won as our ability. Zap Cannon also popped up in discussions, though to a lesser extent. Deciding whether or not these moves make it into our final movepool will inform everything about how the rest of our moveset is constructed. Should these moves be required, optional, or left off our Defining Moves list entirely?​

The thing I am the most certain about is that Zap Cannon should not be touched with a ten foot pole. It is far too strong for us, we already have Inferno which is our high BP status spreader, and Zap Cannon not only gives our opponents another one of these to worry about but also Electric is a great coverage move for us. We will be next to impossible to switch into, if not impossible outright, to switch into if we have both Zap Cannon and Inferno. Inferno and Blizzard on the other have should both be in required. Inferno is the entire reason No Guard was selected as our ability in the first place, helping both the aria and pirouette forms in their respective ways. Blizzard is already in our universally assumed moves, has great synergy with No Guard, and there's no reason it shouldn't be required.

​

2. No Guard's interaction with other high-BP moves like Blizzard, Thunder, Hydro Pump, and Fire Blast was another reason it was a popular ability choice. Focusing specifically on non-STAB coverage, what other powerful moves should we consider as required or optional?​

Not sure if we need non-STAB coverage, honestly. Thunder I think can go into optional, as it does hit some of the things that can switch into our STABs but leaves just enough counterplay. Same with Hydro Pump, it leaves us walled by Water types while hitting the Fire types that bother us. Either way, Mollux is a switch-in. We shouldn't get both though, because that makes our counterplay tricky.

I know I've had issues in the past with thinking things through, but I do want to do my best going forward. Looking forward to seeing where this process goes!

 

[IronTemplar]

Assuming I’m following this process correctly, Inferno. It’s a very powerful STAB move, would synergize well with the ability and (I’m assuming) implied stats on both ends. Being able to reliably burn an opponent ensures whatever defences are incorporated are that much more effective, even if sweeping is the intent at the time. Furthermore, it could be used to make setup more difficult, while also planning your own exit strategy

 

[snake]

It’s easier to answer the questions when I answer up front: we should build CAP36 with Inferno and Thunder.

3. Our concept asks us to "sets the stage for [our] own cleaning later on". What are some moves that are particularly effective in this regard?

The combination of Inferno and Thunder allows CAP36 to apply status and damage simultaneously, with basically only Garganacl able to take on the combination. These are valuable tools that the base form can use to chip down the opposing team with reliable damage and status also providing high BP moves for the cleaner form to use, which pair well with STAB Blizzard.

1. The buzz around Inferno was one major reason that No Guard won as our ability. Zap Cannon also popped up in discussions, though to a lesser extent. Deciding whether or not these moves make it into our final movepool will inform everything about how the rest of our moveset is constructed. Should these moves be required, optional, or left off our Defining Moves list entirely?

Zap Cannon is unnecessary when Thunder exists. Guaranteed paralysis is frankly much more obnoxious than guaranteed burn, and Thunder’s damage output is only slightly less than Zap Cannon’s. Comparatively, there’s no similar alternative to Inferno.

Basically, Inferno is already excellent, and we have a perfectly serviceable alternative to Zap Cannon. Zap Cannon should be left off the defining moves list.

No Guard's interaction with other high-BP moves like Blizzard, Thunder, Hydro Pump, and Fire Blast was another reason it was a popular ability choice. Focusing specifically on non-STAB coverage, what other powerful moves should we consider as required or optional?

Thunder is basically the main one that fits. Hydro Pump and Focus Blast feel like cheap ways to get around Garganacl, and Hurricane’s coverage provided basically nothing given our STAB coverage.

—

Our concept asks us to "sets the stage for [our] own cleaning later on". What are some moves that are particularly effective in this regard? Conversely, are there any moves, or categories of moves, that would be active detriments to the concept?

Back to answering this question a bit more fully:

It shouldn’t be our sole way of accomplishing the concept, but Knock Off does make sense to help us clean up for later. I personally think that Thunder providing more direct damage, paralysis, and space for Blizzard on the moveset is overall more effective.

What I’m not sure about is if Knock Off or Thunder would realistically affect stat limits so much that accounting for one, the other, or even both would change stat limits all that much. I think it might be ok to account for both as required at this point in the process.

Quick list of moves we don't need:

• Reliable recovery makes cranking up base form’s bulk unnecessarily difficult when it’s already difficult to fit onto the moveset.
• Hazard control doesn’t seem terribly useful given how we can more permanently make progress.
• Coverage beyond Fire/Ice/Electric doesn’t seem super useful or necessary.

 

[SunshineFuture]

Before answering the questions themselves, I think that regardless of what other moves we select here, Freeze-Dry should be required. Leaving CAP36 entirely walled by bulky Waters feels like a really bad idea, especially for a cleaner trying to operate with several of them being rather prominent in the metagame. Even if we get something like Thunder, it still has value versus Ogerpon-W as well fwiw. Basically, no matter what we want this in the movepool.

The buzz around Inferno was one major reason that No Guard won as our ability. Zap Cannon also popped up in discussions, though to a lesser extent. Deciding whether or not these moves make it into our final movepool will inform everything about how the rest of our moveset is constructed. Should these moves be required, optional, or left off our Defining Moves list entirely?

I absolutely think Inferno should be a required move; as previously mentioned, this was the primary selling point of No Guard throughout the entire ability stage; I feel it'd be a very dumb idea to suddenly switch up and not require it. Zap Cannon, however, should under no circumstances be allowed. Honestly, I think having both it and Inferno would be too much, even for this unorthodox process. The only scenario I'd be okay with it being optional is if it has a frankly ludicrous penalty attached to it. If I had to pick though, I'd rather just leave off Zap Cannon.

No Guard's interaction with other high-BP moves like Blizzard, Thunder, Hydro Pump, and Fire Blast was another reason it was a popular ability choice. Focusing specifically on non-STAB coverage, what other powerful moves should we consider as required or optional?

Thunder is one of the only two non-STAB moves I think deserve to be designated as defining moves. Slightly stronger than STAB Freeze-Dry in most contexts with a 30% chance to paralyze, beyond dealing with bulky Waters it's a good backup option to prevent Fire-types from completely stuffing CAP36, as well as a kinda neat option to cripple Pokemon that wouldn't really care about burn. Personally I would rather Thunder be required rather than optional, given that it slots so nicely with CAP Song/Inferno/Blizzard as a fourth slot; however, I also would get it if we simply made it optional, since some may be worried that only having Garganacl as a definitive counter could be too much depending on stats. Basically, put Thunder somewhere on here for sure.

Hydro Pump is pretty unappealing to me tbh. For one, I think having a super-effective button against every Fire-type not named Mollux + Garganacl severely undermines some of our only potential defensive checks in a way that I think may be too dangerous. At the same time though, trying to slot this move is kinda weird. Assuming you run it with CAP Song and Inferno, you either run it with Blizzard and get hard-walled by bulky Waters, or you run Freeze Dry and lose a significant amount of power on your Ice STAB. Again, feels like a distraction. Leave off Hydro Pump. Also, no other dedicated coverage seems worth discussing given how much Fire and Ice already hit.

Our concept asks us to "sets the stage for [our] own cleaning later on". What are some moves that are particularly effective in this regard? Conversely, are there any moves, or categories of moves, that would be active detriments to the concept?

The only move that feels seriously worth mentioning here is Knock Off. Status + Knock is a tried and true method of dealing chip damage, Fire-types do not appreciate losing Boots, and its higher power when first used makes it usable in the cleaner form. While not quite as synergistic with the rest of our moves compared to Thunder on the cleaner, it definitely has more general utility, particularly for the base form. Like Thunder, Knock Off should at least be optional.

TL;DR - Besides the universal moves in the OP, the only moves I feel have any real reason to be specified as defining moves are Inferno, Freeze-Dry, Thunder, and Knock Off. The rest we really just do not need imo.

Edit: Revised my thoughts on Knock Off lol

 

[quziel]

Gonna dissent. Zap Cannon is exactly the kind of extremely high power spread defining move that defining moves are meant for. It absolutely should be a move with a very high BSR penalty, but Inferno/Blizzard/Zap Cannon/CAP Song is a very valid set that plays meaningfully different from any non-Zap Cannon set. Being able to nail incoming fires/Cresc with a guaranteed Para dramatically changes how those interactions play out, and as a result I feel it should be at least considered.

 

[RADU]

Throughout various parts of the discussion leading up to here, especially after No Guard was selected, having Inferno as a move has been kind of assumed.
With such a limited movepool to accomplish our objectives, an interesting and underutilized move that deals a lot of damage, burns and makes use of our ability is an absolute no brainer. Inferno should by all means be required.

After that, I believe there are primarily two paths we can take:

1. Blizzard + Thunder

A hard-hitting combination that makes full use of No Guard to and through. It's an offensive moveset that hits nearly everything in the tier (while still leaving a few good checks on the table in some of the bulky fires) and is uniquely able to apply triple status, making it absolutely demonic for crippling the opponent. There would be little reason to drop relic song with this combination considering the trio of Inferno, Blizzard and Thunder hits so wide and cripples so much there's little value you would get out of other moves; it would also give us a clear direction considering stats, allowing us to give steel/fire a low enough SpA stat to not be self-sufficient, and encouraging us to better invest in bulk and speed (the latter which we would really appreciate to be faster than a lot of the mons that pressure us)

2. Freeze-Dry + Knock Off

On another note, freeze-dry would be great move compression for a mon with limited movepool, allowing us to hit waters in the same moveslot as our STAB. Knock Off has been very popular in discussion because it is one of the better moves for making progress, removing lefties, scarfs and boots to cripple very well anything standing in our way. The combination of Inferno + Freeze-Dry should be enough to hit the vast majority of the meta besides certain fires in our ice/fire form, meaning the steel/fire form has more space for utility moves like knock. This direction would also allow us to meaningfully increase our SpA in the ice/fire form given the lack of firepower in Freeze-Dry, and getting that extra damage is key in discouraging players from slotting something like Fire Blast due to Inferno's potentially insufficient 100BP (10BP aint much but these rolls can make the difference).

I personally prefer option 1, meaning I would consider Thunder a defining move. It's more fitting with the ability and the status can potentially carry through crippling the opponent better than any other utility move; it also gives us a way to hit fire types that is way less destructive for them. My fear with Knock Off is that Fire/Ice is incredible coverage that pretty much forces fire types in, and being able to remove the boots from them could potentially be way too disruptive to the fires, removing pretty much all checks and counters from this pokemon if rocks are up.

I would, as such, consider Freeze-Dry and Knock Off as optional. Certainly options worth considering, but they stray away from the ideal of cleaner, going much more into breaker territory.

I would leave Zap Cannon off the table, as it is conflicting with Inferno as a protagonistic moves, and spreading guaranteed status on pretty much everything can be too strong, on top of the extra power as well. Paralysis is an incredibly broken mechanic, and being able to hit a guaranteed one on everything for 120BP feels like making a mon that is guaranteed to make progress and that people will be unable to switch into. It wouldn't surprise me if people ran Tera Electric and decided to hard focus on this move exclusively, with Blizzard as coverage option for all ground types (and Fire Blast for Equilibra).

I don't like other strong inaccurate moves like Focus Blast, Hydro Pump or Hurricane; they can be added in as optional but I don't foresee them having much use and could end up making an incredibly fishy and annoying mon, that just wins on the spot if it has the right coverage against the right team. On top of that, if they do see use, leaving so many strong moves on the table could lead 36 to ignore song entirely, which is not ideal.

As for other moves, I would generally disregard all forms of Recovery, Hazards, Boosting, and honestly status moves in general. With such a compressed moveset catered towards the offensive, being able to make progress exclusively via attacking moves is ideal. My only possible concern is maintaining longevity, but I think that fuels skill expression of players that are able to use Leftovers sets in an intelligent manner: get in, apply pressure, get out, until it's time to transform; this is the kind of playstyle we want to reward in the first place, so I'm very strongly of the opinion that we shouldn't have any recovery moves.

 

[Brown4Sides]

Regarding Thunder. Some have argued that this move should be required, but I don't think so at all. It should be in optional.

Thunder definitely helps with Water types and works well with our ability. Issue is, I just think using Freeze-Dry to hit Waters instead of Thunder incentivizes the transformation, because by transforming, Freeze-Dry gets STAB, and it would likely rather be weak in our Aria form. Thunder hits harder in our Aria form, and I think we should really be looking for reasons to incentivize transforming into the Pirouette form. Thunder should not be required.

Now regarding Knock Off. I think this is a cool move that helps the Aria form do more stuff early game so that spreading burns isn't all it's doing. I think the Aria form would benefit from this move much more than the Pirouette form though, so I can see an argument for not including it on a spread. Knock Off should be in optional, along with Thunder.

 

[Spammernoob]

1. Inferno should be on the "Required" list. I think people voted on No Guard due to the moveslot compression it provides in tandem with Inferno, and I don't see much point in No Guard for this Pokemon otherwise.

With respects to Zap Cannon, I think it might be overdoing it? We can definitely include it in "Optional" as it will heavily influence what stat spreads are reasonable, but it will probably be too strong, and seems unnecessary for the concept.

2. For non-STAB coverage options, Thunder, Hydro Pump, and Earth Power are the ones that stand out the most with respect to hitting bulky Water and Fire types respectively. At this point, I don't think any of these are required. However, if we make CAP36 hard-walled by bulky Water-types, I don't think it can possibly work as a cleaner in the current meta. I think Hydro Pump/Earth Power are reasonable in "Optional", and Thunder in "Choose At Least One" with Freeze Dry.

3. Inferno is the obvious move here as it spreads burns, which can give CAP36 opportunities to Relic Song or provide chip damage to weaken checks. Thunder/Zap Cannon similarly spread paralysis (broken af) which serves a similar purpose. Knock Off is another progress-making move we can consider, as it makes it harder for Fire-types to switch in on us later.

Set-up (eg. NP, CM, QD) discourage the use of Relic Song and should be ruled out. I think recovery can definitely be considered here, as it helps with respects to trading, so it can be in "Optional" (access to recovery will greatly impact our bulk limits). Pivoting and hazards are probably better served on other Pokemon, as they will heavily incentivize dropping Relic Song and playing purely utility, so I think we should rule those out (even if they help us make progress in theory).

 

[Guingil]

The buzz around Inferno was one major reason that No Guard won as our ability. Zap Cannon also popped up in discussions, though to a lesser extent. Deciding whether or not these moves make it into our final movepool will inform everything about how the rest of our moveset is constructed. Should these moves be required, optional, or left off our Defining Moves list entirely?​

I agree with the general consensus that Inferno is our defining required move. No Guard was chosen primarily to guarantee its utility, and it sets the tone for our early-game impact through status and chip. Adding Zap Cannon feels like overkill. Overlap in purpose, does too much at once, and risks diluting our concept by pushing us toward an bloated kit.
​

No Guard's interaction with other high-BP moves like Blizzard, Thunder, Hydro Pump, and Fire Blast was another reason it was a popular ability choice. Focusing specifically on non-STAB coverage, what other powerful moves should we consider as required or optional?

I'm ambivalent about Thunder, but I think it is the only move here that merits any real discussion given our concept. It damages Fire-types that switch into Inferno and pressures bulky Waters, while also offering a secondary method of status spreading.

That said, I think Thunder ends up being a bit hyperspecialised against Fires specifically. Bulky Waters, for example, still hate the chip from a guaranteed burn (and I talk about Freeze-Dry in the next section, which has comparable power with STAB). I think we also have to consider scenarios against non-Fire types that switch into us. Anything that gets burned early, a wall or a special attacker, might become the go-to response to CAP 36 moving forward because it's already statused. At that point, Thunder doesn't do anything additional to punish them, and given that the base forme might not have the highest offenses, I do not believe that we're outputting that much damage for it to be overly meaningful either. Plus, realistically, I think the 30% paralysis chance is not providing as much to the cleaner which I assume might be intended to be quite fast already.

But on the other hand, it is a fantastic extra tool to have as a cleaner and really helps us work with Inferno/Blizzard/Thunder as a trifecta of similarly powered moves for our key calcs. So I think it is best to put it in "Choose At Least One" list with Freeze-Dry as others have suggested.
​

Our concept asks us to "sets the stage for [our] own cleaning later on". What are some moves that are particularly effective in this regard? Conversely, are there any moves, or categories of moves, that would be active detriments to the concept?​

I think that just for us to slot in an extra move that helps us other than the damage/burn from Inferno, Freeze-Dry and the compression it provides against Water-types is necessary. But if I understand it correctly, since we get Blizzard anyway as a universally assumed move, making our key calculations based on a 70 BP move makes Inferno/Blizzard ungodly strong. Hence, I think it's best to put in the "Choose At Least One" list with Thunder as mentioned, otherwise you have some absurd power.

Knock Off is the best pro-concept move to pair with Freeze-Dry, and unlike Thunder, it still makes guaranteed progress whether our switch-in is a Fire type or if it is already statused. It does become a dead slot in the cleaner forme, but that's okay given how much value aria can provide for pirouette through it.

Options like Taunt, Encore kind of work but are not explicitly pro-concept, although Heatran or sweepers have run these moves before. But they don't do much to further our long-term plan of setting the stage up for our cleaner, and handing out too many of these might risk us dropping CAP Song, so I'd say no to these. Since we want to preserve our health for the cleanup, and our typing does not make us a particularly good fit given our common weaknesses, I'd say no to Hazards as well.

CAP Song is our setup, so we don't require extra moves of this kind. Healing or pivoting does not help with Fire types.​

 

[chartung17]

Inferno should absolutely be required, as it's the primary reason we chose No Guard in the first place. I don't think anything else (apart from CAP Song and the universally assumed moves) should be required.

I think this CAP is almost always going to run CAP Song/Inferno/Blizzard, so optional moves should be anything that would be effective in the fourth slot.

As others have said, Thunder, Zap Cannon, and Freeze Dry could all be useful coverage (and we should be able to avoid making a Zap Cannon build overpowered), and Knock Off is a useful for removing boots and thus causing chip damage that helps us clean, so they should be optional.

I haven't seen much discussion on recovery moves and boosting moves, but both seem to be pro concept, either allowing us to spread burns for longer before transforming or increasing our damage output and/or speed so we can clean more effectively.

Other moves I haven't seen discussed: Stealth Rock and Spikes are definitely pro concept, as chip damage is very important to a cleaner, and Toxic could be useful to provide better chip damage against the Water and Fire types that resist our STABs (although it does run the risk of producing a mon that prefers staying in its defensive form). I don't know if CAP 36 would run any of these over a powerful coverage move, but as stated above, I don't think any coverage moves should be required.

Also to deter the option later, please can we officially ban Sheer Cold as well?

Why bother? Sheer Cold will never be legal, so it's effectively a flavor move.

Freeze-Dry + Knock Off

On another note, freeze-dry would be great move compression for a mon with limited movepool, allowing us to hit waters in the same moveslot as our STAB. Knock Off has been very popular in discussion because it is one of the better moves for making progress, removing lefties, scarfs and boots to cripple very well anything standing in our way. The combination of Inferno + Freeze-Dry should be enough to hit the vast majority of the meta besides certain fires in our ice/fire form, meaning the steel/fire form has more space for utility moves like knock. This direction would also allow us to meaningfully increase our SpA in the ice/fire form given the lack of firepower in Freeze-Dry, and getting that extra damage is key in discouraging players from slotting something like Fire Blast due to Inferno's potentially insufficient 100BP (10BP aint much but these rolls can make the difference).

I don't think this is a realistic option. Blizzard is on the list of universally assumed moves, and while I could see using Freeze Dry over Ice Beam, I doubt anyone would choose Freeze Dry over No Guard Blizzard when the latter is so much more powerful against most mons.

Set-up (eg. NP, CM, QD) discourage the use of Relic Song and should be ruled out.

Not necessarily. If the base form has low enough special attack, special attack boosts won't be very useful until it transforms.

 

[viol and bass]

The buzz around Inferno was one major reason that No Guard won as our ability. Zap Cannon also popped up in discussions, though to a lesser extent. Deciding whether or not these moves make it into our final movepool will inform everything about how the rest of our moveset is constructed. Should these moves be required, optional, or left off our Defining Moves list entirely?

Inferno was obviously the main reason for No Guard; it should be required. That said, people should not underestimate how potent this move makes us. It gives us a reason to show restraint with the other moves we grant this mon. I'm not a fan of electric coverage in general and I think Zap Cannon is quite excessive.

No Guard's interaction with other high-BP moves like Blizzard, Thunder, Hydro Pump, and Fire Blast was another reason it was a popular ability choice. Focusing specifically on non-STAB coverage, what other powerful moves should we consider as required or optional?

I think there are some reasonable builds that don't use Blizzard, but I'm alright with it being required. If we have Inferno, Fire Blast won't make it onto sets.

I'm not a fan of strong coverage on this thing. Often in CAP we focus on bestowing everything with perfect coverage, when a lot of effective mons don't function this way. Our STABs are so potent by themselves, hitting most of the meta neutrally and much of it super effectively, including a lot of important defensive centerpieces. Assuming Inferno, our most spammable STAB has a guaranteed burn on top of good power, and the primary status absorber in the meta is 4x weak to our Ice STAB. This set of traits is objectively insane. Depending on Freeze-Dry, the only things that comfortably switch in may be fire-types, and a majority of those lack longevity. We are already exerting an absolute crapton of pressure. We just don't need strong coverage, and this includes Thunder, which should be optional at most.

Our concept asks us to "sets the stage for [our] own cleaning later on". What are some moves that are particularly effective in this regard? Conversely, are there any moves, or categories of moves, that would be active detriments to the concept?

I think Knock Off does what we need while fulfilling the concept well. Fire types are all either very reliant on boots, or they lack longevity in general and are unable to check you over the course of a game (like Iron Moth). Knock is really good for waters too; With just Inferno / Knock Off, a bulky water like Cresceidon or Arghonaut that tries to check you over the course of the game gets knocked and burned, Cresc's multiscale becomes kinda invalidated, these mons are now taking spikes/rocks damage or lose Leftovers recovery, and you're probably still chunking them with high-powered STABs even if they're resisted. Basically, you're pressuring them adequately irrespective of which Ice move you're using, and you're likely able to get through them late game through wearing them down. And obviously, if we have Freeze-Dry, they're not even an issue to begin with. Garganacl stands out as another mon that is likely to try to check this thing, and it also hates losing its item and becomes much easier to chunk down once it's gone. Knock Off is great here in my opinion. Optional or required.

Other utility moves are mostly weirder fits / less broadly useful, or in the case of something like Toxic, kind of scary in terms of metagame health in conjunction with Inferno and a move that hits Gliscor 4x. That said, I probably haven't thought through every utility option so there might be something else that's cool.

 

[vishy fishy]

We could make the mon mixed before form change and add power whip, it’s stronger than freeze dry before form change mabye. I know this is stupid and I’m probably missing something but… idk.

 

[Shock3600]

Should these moves [inferno, zap cannon] be required, optional, or left off our Defining Moves list entirely?
Inferno should be required, it was the defining argument behind No Guard. Zap cannon is questionable, there's been some concern about no guard zap cannon being a particularly annoying or toxic element to face. It defintely shouldn't be required, and while there's an argument to be made for its inclusion as an optional moves, there's better options for low accuracy high powered coverage moves with less "risk" in regards to being overbearing and annoying to face so I think it might be better to leave it off and consider it for the final movepool only.

Focusing specifically on non-STAB coverage, what other powerful moves should we consider as required or optional?
I don't think there should be any that are required, but thunder should absolutely be an optional move. It fulfills a similar purpose to zap cannon but with a power that better competes with freeze dry for water coverage and gives 36 a high power move to hit other resists neutrally (most notably fire types). Due to the moveslot implications, it shouldn't be required so that stat submitters can explore alternate routes with potentially higher SpA.

What are some moves that are particularly effective in this [fulfilling the concept] regard? Conversely, are there any moves, or categories of moves, that would be active detriments to the concept?
Knock off is the clear winner here for a number of reasons. It gives the base form another tool to make progress, along with the potential for inferno burns, while limiting the progress it can make without transforming (once you've burned and/or knocked something on the team, clcking inferno and knock into that same switch in doesn't change much). The ability to make limited progress in the base form is particularly important since it gives us reason to perform in the base form while still wanting to transform later in the game. While it is arguably a "dead slot" in the second form, it gives us an avenue to wear down our checks and counters without simply blowing past them with coverage.

Recovery moves are the primary category that would be actively detrimental. Due to the defensive profile of fire/steel struggling to naturally check the main threats of the metagame and the nature of splitting ev's between two forms, base 36 will probably require high base defensive stats. If it has access to recovery, especially instant recovery, it risks incentivizing running defensive investment and simply dropping song.

Settup moves don't seem as risky, but considering how hard it would be to fit both settup and song, there's not enough reward to justify the risk. Depending on how the base form of 36 turns out, settup once again risks being used in place of song.

 

[AzothBend]

1. The buzz around Inferno was one major reason that No Guard won as our ability. Zap Cannon also popped up in discussions, though to a lesser extent. Deciding whether or not these moves make it into our final movepool will inform everything about how the rest of our moveset is constructed. Should these moves be required, optional, or left off our Defining Moves list entirely?

Given the chosen ability, Inferno should obviously be required. The two are intrinsically linked for this concept. Likewise, Blizzard should also be required. CAP36 should use the tools at its disposal: High BP, low Acc STAB moves. Zap Cannon is slightly more nuanced. Paralysis is arguably more crippling and Zap Cannon boasts a higher BP to boot. However, it does similarly play into the exact role Inferno already grants and should be considered optional with a heavy BSR penalty.

2. No Guard's interaction with other high-BP moves like Blizzard, Thunder, Hydro Pump, and Fire Blast was another reason it was a popular ability choice. Focusing specifically on non-STAB coverage, what other powerful moves should we consider as required or optional?

Fire/Ice STAB coverage is expansively great into the meta. There's only a handful of inherent checks available, and they fall into two categories: bulky Water-types and bulky Fire-types. There's also the outlier of Garganacl, whom resists one STAB, is immune to CAP36's burn-spreading shenanigans, and can threat both forms fairly well thanks to Salt Cure's unique effects.
With all that in mind, there are also two camps of coverage moves that CAP36 will want. Notably CAP36 should only have access to one of these two coverage move groups to maintain some defensive counterplay against it.
The first hits the bulky Water types: Freeze-Dry, Thunder, and Zap Cannon. Freeze-Dry is STAB, yes, but serves as an useful benchmark for the other two listed moves. It also possesses the added benefit of incentivizing transformation to match the other two in power. Thunder and Zap Cannon hitting harder out of the gate should be a consideration. The second group then is to hit the other set: bulky Fire-types and Garganacl. This would include Scald/Scorching Sands, Earth Power, and Hydro Pump.
In both cases, the first listed move should be considered required as a baseline. Each successive move should be considered optional with an increasing BSR penalty. Admittedly Scorching Sands/Earth Power are so comparable that maybe a BSR penalty is unnecessary.

3. Our concept asks us to "sets the stage for [our] own cleaning later on". What are some moves that are particularly effective in this regard? Conversely, are there any moves, or categories of moves, that would be active detriments to the concept?

The name of the game here is compression. Looking at Inferno as a guide, CAP36 will want moves that offer chip damage with strong secondary effects. Knock Off is an obvious candidate. Another Dark-type candidate is Ceaseless Edge, but it is likely too far a stretch. There are Fire-type candidates too like Flame Charge or Torch Song, but realistically there is not room for them and their effect can be replicated with the stat change between forms. Rapid Spin is a CAP staple, but feels a bit awkward here for many of the same reasons. Taunt may work as disruption but feels comparitively weaker. Pivoting moves may similarly provide value, but border on anti-conceptual when in the second form. Other pure status moves are likely too passive for this 'mon.

 

[Loco]

Is it possible to make a universally assumed move optional? Blizzard being assumed on movepools in conjunction with No Guard forces stat submissions to be built with it in mind (presumably from the discussions alongside Inferno as the main STAB moves), and thereby losing the option to base stats around a paring of Inferno and Ice Beam (or Freeze-Dry). This forces a lower Special Attack to hit the same power level as would be the case without Blizzard being assumed, and hence removes the flexibility to hit benchmarks with Inferno or coverage moves for little benefit.

 

[quziel]

While I recognize that a lot of folks voted No Guard explicitly because of Inferno shenanigans, I feel it should be excluded from the mandatory segment of defining moves. Fire Blast is a universally assumed move, has a significant benefit from No Guard, and great power. Inferno represents a significant step up from Fire Blast due to the guaranteed Burn, and as a result is a picture perfect Defining Move. I'd argue the following for required defining moves: Fire Blast, Relic Song, Ice Beam. I think there's an argument to replace Ice Beam on this list with Blizzard, but well, my precedent is Silvally-Ice does some weird forme changing and has Ice Beam but not Blizzard so that's enough for me.

Optional should then include stuff like Inferno, Blizzard, Thunder, Freeze Dry, Zap Cannon, and Knock Off, which all meaningfully affect our counterplay. I'm not arguing all of these should have explicit stat penalties, but I do think they meaningfully affect how our spreads will look. I'll defend Zap Cannon again as a move that absolutely is on another level compared to its competitors, but absolutely also allows for low SpA 36-A spreads to still force progress in a way that Thunder can't quite manage.

I feel like we should specifically deny ourselves of any coverage that hits bulky fires super effectively. These are solid checks to us given our STAB combo, and unlike the bulky waters that also beat Fire/Ice, they're not on every single balance team. They're a natural release valve for a mon that could otherwise be utterly terrifying to face.

"3. Our concept asks us to "sets the stage for [our] own cleaning later on". What are some moves that are particularly effective in this regard? Conversely, are there any moves, or categories of moves, that would be active detriments to the concept?"

We have a sorta difficult balance to be struck here. We need to ensure that we'll actually make it to the late game, most proposed movesets look extremely cluttered and verging on 4mss, and we need to ensure that we actually want to run Relic Song. Recovery is something that I feel we should source externally (Alo), Hazards make a bit of sense, especially in the context of solo-Freeze-Dry sets which may want a bit of extra help vs certain grounds, though I'm still trying to figure out how to contextualize them. Sticky Web is somehow sorta valid in that it lets slower 36-p spreads support itself? Finally I feel Poison-inflicting moves, from restrained options such as Poison Gas (it still exists somehow?) helping us chip Ting into Blizzard/Freeze Dry/Ice Beam range to higher power options such as Toxic or Mortal Spin transforming how we play.

Edit: Some confusion in the discord./

Required moves should be moves where the mon has literally nothing except base stats. Every spread is built from there based on folks taking optional moves to define the calcs, the stats, etc. Some Optional moves shouldn't even have base stat penalties. I'd imagine Blizzard would count here, but if it doesn't fit with a stat spread creator's vision, eg if they think Freeze Dry should be where you calc Ice STAB for, then they should be able to exclude it.

 

[Glitchwood High]

1. The buzz around Inferno was one major reason that No Guard won as our ability. Zap Cannon also popped up in discussions, though to a lesser extent. Deciding whether or not these moves make it into our final movepool will inform everything about how the rest of our moveset is constructed. Should these moves be required, optional, or left off our Defining Moves list entirely?

Inferno should be required as otherwise No Guard doesn't really do much of anything, as many other users pointed out. Blizzard is also an obvious requirement.

Zap Cannon, though, should be left off our Defining Moves list, for a few reasons.

• CAP 36 is meant to be a cleaner, but Zap Cannon is so absurdly strong that it'd be more than easy to use it as a conventional wallbreaker. Every single ground type in the tier will get smoked by CAP 36's Fire/Ice moves, so the zap cannon is going to paralyze something and do notable damage to it and will do that to multiple Pokemon. This is both outside this CAP's intended role and extremely obnoxious to play against.
  • I seriously cannot stress enough how strong No Guard Zap Cannon is. It wouldn't just be a defining move, it'd be the Pokemon's entire identity. I could easily see Relic Song-less sets that replace R.Song with substitute to make for ridiculous Zap Cannon spam sets.
• CAP 36's concept mentions that it's speed tier will be similar to the likes of Dragapult, Deo-S and Iron Valiant. No Guard Zap Cannon would be a scary combination on a slow Pokemon, much less a fast one.
• Paralysis writ large is a mechanic that I think CAPs should do their best not to lean into. Burns are strong, but predictable and fair. Paralysis is not only stronger, but significantly more random.

2. No Guard's interaction with other high-BP moves like Blizzard, Thunder, Hydro Pump, and Fire Blast was another reason it was a popular ability choice. Focusing specifically on non-STAB coverage, what other powerful moves should we consider as required or optional?

RADU's post did a great job of highlighting why Focus Blast & Hurricane should be optional.; they're not essential to the concept and would make it much more of a matchup-fish than necessary.

• Edit: I initially included Hydro Pump in this list, but looking back at it, I would prefer it can hit fire types while still losing to Mollux (without tera blast), so Hydro Pump should be required.

Earth Power should be optional. If Hydro Pump isn't added, then Earth Power should definitely come in its place; otherwise, I'm fine with Mollux checking it.

Freeze-Dry should be required. I have a bit of doubt with this one, but I think CAP 36 would have too difficult a time sweeping if it got stuffed out by Cresceidon/Arghonaut/Krilowatt, to speak nothing of Alomomola and Dondozo.

3. Our concept asks us to "sets the stage for [our] own cleaning later on". What are some moves that are particularly effective in this regard? Conversely, are there any moves, or categories of moves, that would be active detriments to the concept?

Hazards would be a good bet as it allows CAP 36 to make long-term progress on its own.

Knock Off would give the mon a bit of 4MSS syndrome, but honestly that's not a bad thing to me: that's a sign of a Pokemon being flexible. The choice to include Knock Off wouldn't fundamentally break this mon, so it seems like a good one.

A boosting move would be in-line with the cleaners CAP 36 is emulating (Dragapult / Iron Valiant / Deo-S) but it'd be tricky to balance. If we do add them, Calm Mind seems to fit the concept best, boosting both defense and offense. Nasty Plot is a stronger-but-potentially-overwhelming addition.

We should avoid recovery; it would incentivize a lot of Relic Song-less sets, which I think we're trying hard to avoid.

 

[Amamama]

1. The buzz around Inferno was one major reason that No Guard won as our ability. Zap Cannon also popped up in discussions, though to a lesser extent. Deciding whether or not these moves make it into our final movepool will inform everything about how the rest of our moveset is constructed. Should these moves be required, optional, or left off our Defining Moves list entirely?

Every Stat Submissions should be required to account for Inferno. This move uniquely benefits from the combination of our typing and Ability and is very likely to end up in the final moveset, regardless of power budget.

I think Zap Cannon is fine in optional, so long as it is clear that it is mutually exclusive with inferno (reasons for this have been outlined in other posts) and will come with a hefty penalty on BSR.

2. No Guard's interaction with other high-BP moves like Blizzard, Thunder, Hydro Pump, and Fire Blast was another reason it was a popular ability choice. Focusing specifically on non-STAB coverage, what other powerful moves should we consider as required or optional?

For non-STAB coverage we should make one of a way to hit water or fire types required.
This includes Freeze Dry, Thunderbolt/Thunder, Surf/Scald/Hydropump, Earth Power.
I also think that The baseline for these moves in combination with Inferno should be the 90BP options or in combination with Fire blast could be Thunder/Hydro. Combinations like Inferno/Blizzard or Inferno/Thunder should end up with some sort of restriction on stats.

3. Our concept asks us to "sets the stage for [our] own cleaning later on". What are some moves that are particularly effective in this regard? Conversely, are there any moves, or categories of moves, that would be active detriments to the concept?

Given our restricted moveslots any STAB or coverage move that can compress utility and Damage is very good.
These Include Inferno, Zap Cannon, Thunder, Scald, Scorching Sands.

Since Fire types look like prime switch ins, Knock Off will be a powerful option to make progress.

Toxic is another very strong option that perfectly fits on our typing which threatens all but one status absorbers in the tier with just two moves and allows to whittle down defensive checks. It does conflict with a possible goal of spreading burns though.

Interestingly, while most hazard removal in the tier threatens 36 with SE coverage, none of them really can come in on 36 without possibly eating a super effective hit, giving 36 room to set hazards for the team. The caveat is, that 36 might not be easy to maneuver onto the field and using that opportunity for lower tempo plays like setting hazards might be too weak.

Overall I Think our DM list should look something like this:
Required: Inferno, Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Flash Cannon (yes maybe someone will run this), CAP song
One Of: Freeze Dry, Thunderbolt/Thunder, Surf/Hydropump/Scald, Earth Power
Optional: Blizzard, Knock Off, Toxic, Zap Cannon

P.S. Required moves does not mean these will be required during Moveset submissions and guaranteed to be on the end product. Required moves means these moves need to be included in stat submissions and heavily considered during moveset subs.
These moves should be the power baseline. Moves that change that baseline, like higher power STABs, coverage and other moves either should go in the “One of” category (here we should put moves that we think are necessary for viability, but that expand the power baseline) or in the “optional” list (moves that probably aren’t necessary but enhance the Mon in some meaningful way)

 

[Gekokeso]

1. The buzz around Inferno was one major reason that No Guard won as our ability. Zap Cannon also popped up in discussions, though to a lesser extent. Deciding whether or not these moves make it into our final movepool will inform everything about how the rest of our moveset is constructed. Should these moves be required, optional, or left off our Defining Moves list entirely?

Inferno is a no brainer, its the only reason why No Guard was chosen so it deserves to stay. Zap Cannon however, is move that I do wanna argue should not be included at all, not even as optional. Gonna take the opportunity to mention this now since Im coming back to this point later when talking about coverage but I do believe people underestimate just how incredibly hard to switch into Inferno is going to be. It is a powerful stab coming from one of the best offensive typings in the game, and to top it off its guaranteed burn chance means that common fire resists like waters or dragons are heavily discouraged to switch in to us, especially if they are physical attackers. This means the only switch-ins to it that don't permanently cripple one of your mons for the rest of the match are either status absorbers (garg and to a much lesser extent gliscor) or fire types. Zap Cannon cripples the second option in addition to crippling the few switchins that don't mind the burn as well.

2. No Guard's interaction with other high-BP moves like Blizzard, Thunder, Hydro Pump, and Fire Blast was another reason it was a popular ability choice. Focusing specifically on non-STAB coverage, what other powerful moves should we consider as required or optional?

Thunder or Thunderbolt is the few of those coverage moves I can see as harmless enough to be among the one of options. Hydro Pump should be optional giving how overwhelming it can be against that likes of the Fire types that can switch-in into us. Earth Power feels like its too much I think.