CAP 37 - Part 8 - Stat Limits

[Spammernoob]

CAP 37 So Far

-----

This next stage is Stat Limits, and it's very important! Our Stats Leader, who will be leading this stage, is Da Pizza Man, so make sure that your posts are generally directed towards him and the questions he asks. Da Pizza Man will be deciding the stat limits for CAP 37 at the conclusion of this thread, based on community input. This is NOT the place where we actually submit stats. That will come later.

These limits will help to define what we consider when making and talking about stat spreads for CAP 37. We will look at limits to CAP 37's physical and special attacking prowess, its physical and special tanking capabilities, and the overall power of its stats.

This is a relatively tricky stage of the process if you're not familiar with what it is we're doing and why we're doing it. For that reason, we strongly encourage those who intend to participate to read the entire OP thoroughly and ask questions where needed.

Please do not poll jump by talking about specific stat spreads or suggesting specific abilities.

Be forewarned that there is no poll for this stage of the CAP. The Stats Leader will decide the stat limits for the CAP upon the conclusion of this thread.

Stat Bias Limits

Stat bias limits set the general stat bias of a Pokemon from an offensive and defensive standpoint. Stat biases are not solely for limiting stats, but they also describe the overall build of the Pokemon in offensive and defensive terms. However, the stat spread is the only part of the project that will be constrained by Stat Bias Limits. There will be four stat biases selected and a total Base Stat Rating (BSR) limit. The Stat Biases are:

Physical Tankiness (PT)

The rating of the Pokémon's physical defense.​

​

Physical Sweepiness (PS)

The rating of the Pokémon's physical offense.​

​

Special Tankiness (ST)

The rating of the Pokémon's special defense.​

​

Special Sweepiness (SS)

The rating of the Pokémon's special offense​

A spreadsheet for calculating the ratings can be found HERE. To use it for yourself, create an editable copy with File > Make a copy. If you don't have a spreadsheet program, OpenOffice and Google Sheets are free.

If you're a newer member of CAP, we highly recommend that you do some good lurking during this stage in the process. Read this page thoroughly to understand what exactly we're doing here. If you're still confused, check out some of the old Stat Limits Discussion threads for past CAPs in the CAP Process Archive. If you're still uncomfortable with posting here, then we suggest you watch how experienced users post; you can learn a lot from them!

 

[Spammernoob]

DPM is busy right now so this thread will be closed until he is ready to make a post, likely until Monday.

Thank you for your patience.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

So it turns out I lied about not posting until Monday, but I had a bit more time that I thought I would and you guys have been patiently waiting anyways. That aside, I guess I might as well introduce myself for anyone unaware.

Hello people, my name is Mr. Dr. Professor Daniel Pizza Manson III, better known as Da Pizza Man (Yes, I completely made that up on the spot). I will be your guide for the next couple of stages, the Stats Stages! We first need to establish our stat limits, which will serve as a guide for the types of spreads people should be submitting during the next stage. Since this is a fairly complicated, and in my opinion, very important stage, I strongly recommend that newer users read the OP before joining in on the discussion. With that out of the way, here is my first batch of questions, starting with what I personally believe to be the most important.

1: What types of general roles (Offensive/Defensive/Support) or and/or specific builds lend themselves working best for utilizing Beak Blast? What are some of the pros and cons of each of these? Is it worth constructing more broad limits made to support multiple of these different builds, or should we just have more focused limits designed around supporting a single one of these?

This question might seem a bit redundant, given this was touched upon during Role Discussion. However, this was really only touched upon in a broad sense to help guide future stages, while I'm looking to establish a much more definitive answer to this question, as I believe it is mandatory for helping me create limits that adhere to the general wishes of the community. Another thing I would like to establish is that I have no plans to create different limits for different potential routes, as was done during Hemogoblin's process, as I personally find them very distracting and not of much help. We will have a single set of limits that everyone will use, and I don't see my stance changing on this.

2: It goes without saying that having good physical bulk is required to make full use out of Beak Blast, so we should talk about that a bit in detail. What are some important Defense benchmarks for us to meet and/or consider? How much should burns provided from Beak Blast play into our physically defensive prowess?

3: How important is having good special bulk for utilizing Beak Blast? Should we consider the idea of spreads with mixed defensive spreads, or even spreads that play more into special bulk than they do physical bulk? Can spreads that sacrifice either of these in favor of boosting the other be considered optimal?

4: While Speed in of itself isn't too important for optimizing Beak Blast due its negative priority, several other aspects of our toolkit are greatly affected by it, most notably Taunt. In an earlier stage, Spammernoob provided a set of notable speed benchmarks that influence Taunt (Listed below), which I find of great use for this stage specifically. How important are each of the benchmarks on this list, and are there any notable benchmarks that may be missing from this list? What other defining moves may be influenced by our speed? Are there any downsides to having high speed?

Notable speed tiers:
236 - Zapdos
226 - Gliscor
218 - Jolly Kingambit
216 - Moltres
209 - Adamant Hemogoblin
199 - Adamant Kingambit
186 - Arghonaut
170 - Corviknight
156 - Clefable, Equilibra

I plan to allow discussion to run for 72 Hours before moving on to my next set of questions.

 

[shnowshner]

Regarding Taunt our access to Opportunist means there's reduced pressure to use Taunt as anti-setup so our most relevant targets are largely users of hazards, status, or Recovery.



Ascending order of common Taunt targets for us. Anything slower than Clef we probably don't need to worry about our Speed stat for frankly.

There's still merit to some other H2Hs like preventing Hemo from using Moonlight if you expect it to heal instead of ESpeed. I could see 252 Speed Dragonite as being a particularly relevant benchmark as we invariably match its Speed boosts when possible and can shut down Roost reactivating Multiscale.

CAP37 would definitely like to outpace Moltres, it's already an awkward matchup for us since Knock can result in a Burn and Beak Blast doesn't let us move first, so if it does come in being able to prevent Roost and Wisp is quite handy. And if we beat Moltres we in turn also improve our Pecharunt MU, a Pokemon infamous for eating SE physical hits (especially post-item Knock Offs), and a potential booster that we may be unfit to deter.

 

[N-Manifold]

I somewhat favor very slow spreads here, even though this makes taunt a bit less useful. In a good portion of interactions, taunting first or second is a matter of one extra recovery move (e.g. against corv) which, while impactful, has somewhat limited utility. As far as I'm concerned, unless we have 96+ speed to outpace gliscor and deny toxic, there's pretty limited benefit in a speed stat and I think it's cleaner to just have low speed.

How important is having good special bulk for utilizing Beak Blast? Should we consider the idea of spreads with mixed defensive spreads, or even spreads that play more into special bulk than they do physical bulk? Can spreads that sacrifice either of these in favor of boosting the other be considered optimal?

I actually think any spread that can't take a special hit is almost DOA. Obviously it doesn't need to be toxapex, but even e.g. tusk, a big physically defensive physical attacker, has pretty respectable special bulk. The only mons which have high physical and very low special bulk are RUBL and below, and even those generally need a lot of extra tools to fulfill a role (e.g. cloyster getting shell smash). With that being said, I think a large number of bulk profiles can work here, even ones with mixed bulk. A mon with mixed bulk can still play into one side or the other (see phys defensive mandibuzz) it just places harder limits on our offensive presence. I agree that something like a BSR limit is more elegant than different sweepiness ratings for different styles.

 

[dex]

1. Beak Blast should hit hard. I think the main value of Beak Blast is its unique ability to force switches that don't want to deal with potentially getting burned. In order to leverage that effectively, Beak Blast needs to hit its switches decently hard, and we have left that to be accomplished via stats. Offensive/defensive/support roles sort of blend together with this mon, so I don't think that focusing on one role in particular is very helpful. Instead, we should focus on particular Beak Blast + Knock Off calcs and particular defensive calcs to get the job done.
2. I think mixed bulk is very much the way to go here. A matchup that I think is a potential target is Boots Zamazenta. If CAP 37 can survive two Stone Edges, or at least two Close Combats, that already puts it in a good place to compete with the tier's other Flying-types. Another matchup to look at securing is Ogerpon-W, a common physical attacker that CAP 37 may simply need to check. Surviving two Tera Water Cudgels would be the upper limit of where we can check it. That isn't a required calc by any means, but it is something to keep in mind as a target. On the topic of burns, I do not believe that burns should play a meaningful part in our discussion on bulk. The threat of the burn is a bigger factor in play than the burn itself, I feel, so I don't think that surviving a normal hit into a burn hit is an entirely necessary thing to think about.
3. I think CAP 37 should have passable special bulk. I think ignoring the special side leaves it too vulnerable to the tier's Ghost-types, something we don't want from a Dark-type. Something along the lines of Corviknight's special bulk makes sense to me at a glance, but it could probably be a little lower. It definitely should not be ignored, however.
4. Speed is where I think we can use some of our defining moves list to impose penalties. Encore and Taunt both improve with speed. As does Body Press (for Kingambit). However, I don't think Speed is wholly that important for CAP 37. It probably shouldn't be dead slow, something above Arghonaut makes a lot of sense to me, but I will think about Speed bounds later in this stage.

 

[Guingil]

1: What types of general roles (Offensive/Defensive/Support) or and/or specific builds lend themselves working best for utilizing Beak Blast? What are some of the pros and cons of each of these? Is it worth constructing more broad limits made to support multiple of these different builds, or should we just have more focused limits designed around supporting a single one of these?

Of the three, purely Defensive does not match our profile. Beak Blast works best with more health, which is significantly hampered by getting chipped by pivot moves, losing Boots due to Knock Off, or getting statused. This awkwardness around switching sort of pushes us towards leaving a higher impact in our limited opportunities. Beak Blast and Knock Off are great offensive and utility weapons, the former giving us free turns by forcing switches and leaving a 100 BP dent in opponents, and the latter being... uh, the most clickable move in the history of Pokémon. A good Attack stat amps up both. This also makes the rest of our kit more valuable. Our 50% Recovery can be a reset we click due to our offensive pressure, rather than something we're forced to do every time we're in for more defensive value. And Opportunist mindgames are scarier when our offenses are higher. So yeah, more Attack please.

But I don't think we can ever be purely Offensive either, as Beak Blast has negative priority and Knock has diminishing returns. So a Tank/Bulky Utility build, with some mix of Attack, bulk, and Speed, seems like the most logical fit. I'd rather we leave some freedom to submitters for whether we want to focus more on the offensive aspect, or the repeatability aspect, with more bulk. Even the same stat spread could feasibly incorporate two ideas with investment (thinking of defensive vs offensive Zapdos, Heatran).

2: ...What are some important Defense benchmarks for us to meet and/or consider? How much should burns provided from Beak Blast play into our physically defensive prowess?

Not getting 2HKO'd by Pokemon we're supposed to check seems like a good benchmark. Given our mostly neutral physical defensive profile, this probably also translates to having some resilience against their coverage moves (eg, Stone Edge/Wild Charge from Zamazenta, Ice Spinner from Great Tusk). I think we should not rely at all on the Beak Blast burn proccing to boost our defensive profile, because Burning will be rare. Rather, the Burn should be a reward obtained due to our physically defensive profile and good play.

3: How important is having good special bulk for utilizing Beak Blast? Should we consider the idea of spreads with mixed defensive spreads, or even spreads that play more into special bulk than they do physical bulk? Can spreads that sacrifice either of these in favor of boosting the other be considered optimal?

Something passable is okay, but I don't think we need much. Our checks (Shox, Cresceidon, Zapdos, Clefable) feed on our special weakness and could also tech status on top of that, so no way we are staying in against them. Living a Doom Desire might sometimes come in handy in this meta, and maybe some Sludge Bombs from Glowking if we come in to take the Future Sight. Dragapult and Gholdengo can tech status or use their other special move on us, so I don't think these interactions are particularly relevant either. There has been discussion about a Ho-Oh-like build where you are so specially bulky that you can afford to invest in physical defense, but I'm not convinced it's necessary.

4: How important are each of the benchmarks on this list, and are there any notable benchmarks that may be missing from this list? What other defining moves may be influenced by our speed? Are there any downsides to having high speed?

Benchmark list seems pretty complete. Given that some Knocks will be implemented on the switch, and Beak Blast being our other STAB, the only other move affected by our Speed seems to be our 50% recovery. I guess this could afford us a less bulky build that can heal up before taking another hit (which is still not in the 2HKO range), which might be concept-relevant if some opponents decide to stay in to kill a weakened 37, but instead have to now contend with a healed up version.
​

If you're comfortable with running some vibe code, I've got a matchup checker for you

https://github.com/Guingil/CAP37-matchup-evaluator

Basically gives an idea of some interactions 37 can have based on its stats. The values are obtained from showdown calcs, so you don't have to plug them in one by one. Some logic, such as 2HKOs, Knock affecting HDB mons, Taunt stopping status, etc, is also incorporated. You'll obtain an HTML page with explanations such as the following:

Still a WIP with the logic, but might be useful.

 

[koista12]

Its late and I usually just lurk and vote, but activity has been low so I'll put my thoughts out here:

1: What types of general roles (Offensive/Defensive/Support) or and/or specific builds lend themselves working best for utilizing Beak Blast? What are some of the pros and cons of each of these? Is it worth constructing more broad limits made to support multiple of these different builds, or should we just have more focused limits designed around supporting a single one of these?

I think that while going offensive/tank-style build is the most obvius route, there could be value in a support-centric role here. If Analytic had been voted in instead of Opportunist, I suppose it would make more sense to hone in solely on a tank-style role. However, Beak Blast's effect + Opportunist means that CAP 37 will likely be adept at forcing switches, and I dont think we should discount the value of a free turn when supporting the rest CAPs team.

Its been noted several times in previous stages that the threat of a burn from Beak Blast is likely more important than actually inflicting burn. I wont deny that more offensive routes play well into this dynamic, allowing us to get strong attacks off, but unless we are going to have nuclear attack, it makes me wonder how much the damage we would inflict will stick around. Maybe Im just thinking about "what could have been" with Analytic (not that I was all that invested in either ability), and am too focused on the dichotomy between the two, but the greater utility focus of Opportunist makes me think letting CAP play a more disruptive role would be a fine route to take.

Given that, I think stat limits should be rather broad, allowing different spreads to deal with the power vs utility dichotomy in their own way.

2. What are some important Defense benchmarks for us to meet and/or consider? How much should burns provided from Beak Blast play into our physically defensive prowess?

I will just echo other people's sentiment that Beak Blast burns should not be factored into when considering physical rankings, due to the burn not being factored in on the turn Beak Blast is used.

3: How important is having good special bulk for utilizing Beak Blast? Should we consider the idea of spreads with mixed defensive spreads, or even spreads that play more into special bulk than they do physical bulk? Can spreads that sacrifice either of these in favor of boosting the other be considered optimal?

Not a hot take, but at the very least, I think decent special bulk is required for CAP 37 to be considered a reliable Ghost resistance. Forgive me if this is considered polluting, but I think that spreads with spectacular special bulk and average physical bulk would encourage Beak Blast use more than spreads with spectacular physical bulk and average special bulk, because (again, as others have noted) Beak Blast's effect is contingent on what the opponent clicks. No one would be selecting contact attacks into a Pecharunt if they were guaranteed to get burned for using those attacks (Weak analogy, I know, given Pecharunt's weaknesses, but I hope the point gets across). So to be blunt: We should allow spreads with better special bulk, and we should allow mixed bulk spreads.

4. How important are each of the benchmarks on this list, and are there any notable benchmarks that may be missing from this list? What other defining moves may be influenced by our speed? Are there any downsides to having high speed?

Spreads that aim to provide a sturdy Ghost resistance would appreciate the possibility of outspeeding Gholdengo, whether those be offensive, support, or defensive spreads. I think that more support oriented spreads would highly appreciate the ability to outspeed and disrupt Moltres, Gliscor, and Dragonite as well. While there's no downside to being incredibly fast, I feel like anything faster than needed to nab those targets would consume such a sizeable chunk of the BSR that it would leave such spreads unable to commit to their offenses or defenses well enough to do their jobs.

 

[Explosion Badger]

What types of general roles (Offensive/Defensive/Support) or and/or specific builds lend themselves working best for utilizing Beak Blast? What are some of the pros and cons of each of these? Is it worth constructing more broad limits made to support multiple of these different builds, or should we just have more focused limits designed around supporting a single one of these?

The two that stand out the most to me are Defensive Hazard Setter and Defensive Pivot. As has been discussed more than enough already, the ability to threaten Rapid Spinners with a burn means that it should be fairly easy to keep rocks up, especially with the Ghold preventing Defog from having a strong presence in the tier. As for pivot, the thought process is simple: As a reactive move, Beak Blast's effect relies on the opponent activating it, and one of the best ways for them to avoid this is by switching out to something . This is especially bolstered by Beak Blast threatening certain pivoting moves like U-Turn and Flip Turn, meaning most of the time, the opponent is forced to blind switch. Of course, a purely defensive build won't work, as part of the purpose choosing Beak Blast is its solid damage, so actually being able to deal damage with it is essential.

4: While Speed in of itself isn't too important for optimizing Beak Blast due its negative priority, several other aspects of our toolkit are greatly affected by it, most notably Taunt. In an earlier stage, @Spammernoob provided a set of notable speed benchmarks that influence Taunt (Listed below), which I find of great use for this stage specifically. How important are each of the benchmarks on this list, and are there any notable benchmarks that may be missing from this list? What other defining moves may be influenced by our speed? Are there any downsides to having high speed?

I don't have any new notable benchmarks, but I do have a issue that too high of speed presents, that being that it can create some complications with our other stats. Considering our attack and bulk has to be fairly good to get usage out of Beak Blast, having too high of a speed stat could result in having to cut into our other stats to prevent 37 from becoming too strong all-around, or from becoming so offensively oriented that it would rather use a different flying type STAB than Beak Blast.

 

[Spammernoob]

1: What types of general roles (Offensive/Defensive/Support) or and/or specific builds lend themselves working best for utilizing Beak Blast? What are some of the pros and cons of each of these? Is it worth constructing more broad limits made to support multiple of these different builds, or should we just have more focused limits designed around supporting a single one of these?

This question might seem a bit redundant, given this was touched upon during Role Discussion. However, this was really only touched upon in a broad sense to help guide future stages, while I'm looking to establish a much more definitive answer to this question, as I believe it is mandatory for helping me create limits that adhere to the general wishes of the community. Another thing I would like to establish is that I have no plans to create different limits for different potential routes, as was done during Hemogoblin's process, as I personally find them very distracting and not of much help. We will have a single set of limits that everyone will use, and I don't see my stance changing on this.

The obvious path is bulky tank/attacker to offset Beak Blast's downside of negative priority. One can consider a mid-fast speed breaker that uses Beak Blast to deter physical attackers, which is kind of interesting.

Realistically, we can't be a Knock Off bot like Shox since the Knock Off absorbers bar Corv/Skarm (eg. Gliscor, Clefable) don't really care about Beak Blast burns.

2: It goes without saying that having good physical bulk is required to make full use out of Beak Blast, so we should talk about that a bit in detail. What are some important Defense benchmarks for us to meet and/or consider? How much should burns provided from Beak Blast play into our physically defensive prowess?

We should probably aim to live 2 +2 Facades from SD Gliscor / Snaelstrom unless we have the attack to OHKO w/ +2 Beak Blast. Other physical calcs are less relevant to me given Beak Blast's deterrence.

3: How important is having good special bulk for utilizing Beak Blast? Should we consider the idea of spreads with mixed defensive spreads, or even spreads that play more into special bulk than they do physical bulk? Can spreads that sacrifice either of these in favor of boosting the other be considered optimal?

Having SpDef is nice. Worst case, it lets you trade HP to Taunt Clefable and keep it low. PhysDef lean is probably reasonable as Beak Blast is comparable to slow Wisp from Rotom-W or Scald from Slowbro (you always take a hit to get off the burn), but I don't think we can really get away w/ something like Great Tusk stats.

4: While Speed in of itself isn't too important for optimizing Beak Blast due its negative priority, several other aspects of our toolkit are greatly affected by it, most notably Taunt. In an earlier stage, Spammernoob provided a set of notable speed benchmarks that influence Taunt (Listed below), which I find of great use for this stage specifically. How important are each of the benchmarks on this list, and are there any notable benchmarks that may be missing from this list? What other defining moves may be influenced by our speed? Are there any downsides to having high speed?

imo the most relevant benchmarks are the ones we don't cripple with Knock Off. On the low end, ,this means Corv at 67 (or Skarm at 70) and at the high end this means Gliscor at 95.
I'm not sure if Corv in CAP is min speed for slow U-turn or benchmarked for Gambit at 200-ish. I guess 200-ish is a safe spot to end up.
SD Gliscor runs some speed (for Raging Bolt? 249-250?), which is annoying. I'm not actually sure if Toxic/Spikes Gliscor runs speed. This is maybe high end for uninvested spreads...

 

[Gekokeso]

1: What types of general roles (Offensive/Defensive/Support) or and/or specific builds lend themselves working best for utilizing Beak Blast? What are some of the pros and cons of each of these? Is it worth constructing more broad limits made to support multiple of these different builds, or should we just have more focused limits designed around supporting a single one of these?

I don't think we can get away with a support build given the offensive nature of beak blast as a move. Toying the line between an offensive and defensive pokémon seems to be the best option, as a fully offensive role will not make the best use of our ability, while a fully defensive role won't make much use of our chosen move.

2: It goes without saying that having good physical bulk is required to make full use out of Beak Blast, so we should talk about that a bit in detail. What are some important Defense benchmarks for us to meet and/or consider? How much should burns provided from Beak Blast play into our physically defensive prowess?

The main ones are going to be being able to comfortably live between 2 or 3 coverage moves from the likes of Zamazenta or Great Tusk, with some other important calcs being the ability to live a couple of attacks from certain setup sweepers. +2 Gliscor, Snaelstrom, Revenankh, and even stuff like Miawsmaw seem to be decently good benchmarks.

3: How important is having good special bulk for utilizing Beak Blast? Should we consider the idea of spreads with mixed defensive spreads, or even spreads that play more into special bulk than they do physical bulk? Can spreads that sacrifice either of these in favor of boosting the other be considered optimal?

4: While Speed in of itself isn't too important for optimizing Beak Blast due its negative priority, several other aspects of our toolkit are greatly affected by it, most notably Taunt. In an earlier stage, @Spammernoob provided a set of notable speed benchmarks that influence Taunt (Listed below), which I find of great use for this stage specifically. How important are each of the benchmarks on this list, and are there any notable benchmarks that may be missing from this list? What other defining moves may be influenced by our speed? Are there any downsides to having high speed?

Decently okay speed to be able to outspeed Libra or Gambit sounds like a pretty valid route to take and thus they should be the minimum.

However im actually going to suggest something weird and say that I think we can afford to greatly cut into our special bulk should we invest it into more speed. I know its weird considering our defensive typing, but I do think that a rather fast approach is a valid route in case we want to commit further into a physical wall role, as I believe that we can get away with subpar special bulk if we outspeed certain key targets like Tusk or Gholdengo. The reason being is that by doubling down on the physical side we get to check a a larger variety of physical sweepers by outspeeding them before and after their boosts, which makes the guessing game between a Beak Blast burn and a dark STAB attack a more pressing issue for physical sweepers to tackle against us. And given our offensive typing, stuff like Gholdengo hitting us real hard is made up by the fact that scarfless variants are offensively threatened out by us.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Alright enough time has passed, gonna wrap this up and move on to my next set of questions

- There's a pretty universal agreement that a tank build seems to be preferred over something more purely defensive or purely offensive. There's a fairly obvious sentiment that people want Beak Blast to hit somewhat hard, but at the same time, we do need some degree of bulk to fully take advantage of all of the tools in our kit. As such, I will mostly be designing limits that support more of a tank role than something purely offensive or defensive.

- Avoiding a 2HKO from Zamazenta & Great Tusks moves seems to be the absolute minimum most people are expecting from us here, which is a sentiment I agree on. As such, I will make sure that spreads can at a minimum achieve this benchmark without having to make any real sacrifices. There's also a desire to live things such as +2 Facade from Gliscor and to avoid a 2HKO from Ivy Cudgel from Waterpon, but these don't seem quite as important, and while they will be taken for consideration, I won't prioritize them quite as much.

- For the most part, people seem to agree that some degree of special bulk is important. At a minimum, we should aim to have at least enough Special Bulk to act as a reliable check to Ghost-types such as Dragapult and Gholdengo, and while there are suggestions of potentially having something with even more special bulk, these aren't required per say. Still though, leaving the option open for voters seems to be the best way moving forwards.

- Speed doesn't seem very important for most people here. While some users have expressed desire for a higher speed, they largely seem to be in the minority. Furthermore, there's a pretty big sentiment that having too high speed would cut too much into our BSR, especially since there's a desire for us to be somewhat strong and to have at least passable bulk on both ends of the spectrum. That being said, people also don't really think that we should be very slow, per say. For this reason, I don't see myself really valuing speed too high here, and will be building limits that assume we have mostly passable speed. This can be facilitated through having a bit of a higher T-Value than expected, as this will reward slower spreads and punish faster spreads more.

With that being said, here's my next batch of questions (There's not gonna be a ton this time around, as there's only a few other things I really think I need here):

1: What are some notable offensive calcs that we can consider? Of these, which are critical for CAP37 to perform its role, and which are more extraneous?
2: Are there any Optional Defining Moves that should be assigned some sort of penalty? If so, how should they be penalized?

As a personal note relating to the second question, I am already very strongly considering putting some sort of limit on Sucker Punch. While I have alluded to the idea of not being a big fan of it on Discord, I figured it would be important to clarify my stance on it here. Quite simply put, I believe that the interaction between Sucker Punch and Opportunist greatly risks overshadowing Beak Blast, and I'm also not the biggest fan of the meta implications that come with said interaction either. That being said, it's still my job as Section Leader to set aside my biases towards it to a degree and make sure that whatever limits, should they be that would be assigned to it, are fair. I would also like to hear if there's anything else that stands out in particular, especially given that that was already somewhat alluded to with Encore in dex's post.

Giving this 72 Hours before I wrap this up and post my preliminary limits

 

[Ixkukul]

1: What are some notable offensive calcs that we can consider? Of these, which are critical for CAP37 to perform its role, and which are more extraneous?
Comfortably 3HKOing common neutral walls in Gliscor, Clefable, and Moltres is valuable, utilizing Taunt to shut down recovery, though only if we have enough speed to utilize it. The same could be said for Shox and Garg with whatever coverage options we give CAP37, potentially preventing them from checking it too casually by carelessly switching in. 2HKOing Argh, Snael, Glowking, Rev, and Chugg (after thy boosts) should be a given. Hemo and Butter Dog (no boosts) are contentious but should still be considered being placed in this same range, imo.
2: Are there any Optional Defining Moves that should be assigned some sort of penalty? If so, how should they be penalized?
Since CAP37 seems to be going slower, Encore shouldn't be too much of an issue *cough cough* Cresc and buff-Kit *cough cough*, though this may turn Encore into a more prediction reliant option if we turn out too slow. While I understand Mr. Dr. Professor Daniel Pizza Manson III's hesitance concerning Sucker Punch, not enough relevant physical boost sweepers are terribly threatened by it, even though it annihilates Ogerpon(OU?)-Wellspring, Miasmaw, and Ceruledge. Beak Blast covers the majority of matchups anyways, so I don't believe Sucker Punch will overshadow it.

 

[viol and bass]

I'm kinda struggling with the first question. It's been hard for me to find calc benchmarks that feel relevant. May come back to that one if I can get my thoughts in order, but I'm gonna just answer this one for now.

2: Are there any Optional Defining Moves that should be assigned some sort of penalty? If so, how should they be penalized?

Encore: Nah. It's probably a sidegrade to Taunt and it doesn't need a penalty in my opinion.
Sucker Punch: I share DPM's concerns. I do feel it risks becoming a centerpiece of the mon, de-prioritizing Beak Blast a bit (which can itself be used as pseudo-priority in certain niche situations by stopping a Dragonite sweep for example, but is obviously not as potent as "priority"). Sucker is quite good on this mon, particularly since we can boost just by entering / being on the field sometimes. I think the move deserves a decent penalty.
Body Press: Don't feel strongly about this one. I'm not convinced the move is even worth running in most cases outside of really lopsided Skarm-style spreads, and I'm not sure it changes the dynamic that much when it is on the set. Probably doesn't need a penalty.

 

[Guingil]

1: What are some notable offensive calcs that we can consider? Of these, which are critical for CAP37 to perform its role, and which are more extraneous?

(In decreasing order of importance)

A minimum of 2HKOing key checks or pressures that are weak to Beak Blast seems like a good benchmark to really emphasize the offensive pressure of the move. Defensive Tusk , Offensive Zamazenta , physically defensive Arghonaut , and, to a lesser extent, non-Intimidate Tomohawk , jump out as relevant calcs here. Arghonaut is especially interesting as it is forced to either use up all its Recover PP for little cost to us (given Beak Blast has 24 PP), or take huge damage to get a Circle Throw/Knock Off on us. The interactions with all these Pokémon work out with similar final Attack stat values, whether it's achieved with a high Base Attack with no investment and a neutral nature, or a lower value with fully invested with a +ve nature. Similar values, notably, also guarantee the OHKO on non-Tera'd Wogerpon , which is neat.

Some supereffectively hit targets that can meaningfully do something back to us with Knock Off or status, like Rillaboom , Snaelstrom , Malaconda , or even Revenankh if it decides to run Knock Off/Glare due to 37 invalidating its standard set, could be relevant to calcs, but given that we meet the first criteria I listed above, this should be more of a matter of whether we should give 37 the option of turning these into 2HKOs/KOs or not with investment.

Some Knock Off calcs against SE targets, such as against Ceruledge , Glowking , Deoxys-S , Gholdengo , or even and Kitsunoh could be interesting to design around, but a lot of these have "wrinkles" which complicate the interaction. The calcs against offensive vs bulky Gholdengo are different, and Knock dropping in power really hurts our ability to make progress into the latter. Pult and Kit can both burn us before we attack them (the latter can heal too), so IDK if designing around this is really feasible.

Finally, neutral interactions with Beak Blast or Knock Off against some targets for whom we deny healing with Taunt could be relevant. Given that we will have 50% Recovery, and the opponents won't, I'm not sure how much the exact numbers matter here.

2: Are there any Optional Defining Moves that should be assigned some sort of penalty? If so, how should they be penalized?

Encore IMO is a bit stronger than Taunt, as a taunted opponent can still make progress into us with their other moves (Salt Cure, Knock Off, status fishing with moves with secondary effects being relevant here), which is a valuable way of counterplay into us. This is only really relevant for Encore when we enter through a hard prediction or a slow pivot. But given our weaknesses to Knock and status, and our strengths with Opportunist, these points of entry might be more common here. So a small penalty based on speed benchmarks could be considered. Of these, I think outspeeding Gliscor, Zapdos, etc., from our list of relevant benchmarks should definitely be penalized or even denied.

Sucker Punch expands our list of targets to some Dragon Dance (Naviathan ) and Swords Dance (Wogerpon , Ceruledge , Caribolt ) users, as well as some ghosts. I imagine killing an opponent is preferable to getting a Burn off on them in many scenarios, so the endgame clash of which move to click remains. I agree that some penalty is definitely warranted here, but I guess how strong SP ends up also depends on how much attack we're allowed.

Don't see anything penalty-worthy with Body Press.​

 

[shnowshner]

1: What are some notable offensive calcs that we can consider? Of these, which are critical for CAP37 to perform its role, and which are more extraneous?

I really value being able to OHKO Revenankh with Beak Blast. Our typing and ability sets us up well to tackle it defensively, and if we can OHKO it normally we're doing 50% vs Tera which means we can sufficiently pressure it between Beak Blast having 24 PP, threatening Burn, and access to Roost. If our Attack isn't capable of this I fail to see how we threaten much of anything. Don't really have a concept of an upper bound right now.

2: Are there any Optional Defining Moves that should be assigned some sort of penalty? If so, how should they be penalized?

Sucker Punch would be the primary concern, I think you tack on a PS or overall BSR penalty onto it, we shouldn't be limiting our opponent's options too heavily.
Encore is a good move in a general sense and we already have access to Taunt, I know its viability on 37 is questionable but I think a slight BSR penalty would be wise.
There's no reason to include one for Body Press. This move hits a very narrow selection of Pokemon and many of them are either more worried about Knock or just aren't terribly common. Dropping any of STABs/Taunt/Roost for Body Press is heavy commitment.