CAP 38 - Part 2 - Concept Assessment

[Shock3600]

I'm seconding Calyrex-Ice here, because I think it's an exemplar of the Ubers mindset, and for the following reasons.
Trick Room
Snowball
Typing
Stats
Clear Niche

I'd like to address some of the concerns I've seen for Caly-I by offering an alternative Uber to model ourselves after. This is not an Uber or generation I am very familiar with, so I wouldn't consider this a true submission but a call for others who support and are more knowledgable to do so.

From discussion I've seen, I think Caly-I is one of the more popular ideas, namely for its specific twist on OTR (Awkward Defensive Typing + Snowballing). While this provides a clear direction, which I think is valuable here- this clear direction has also been raised as a potential weakness. It's a relatively straight forward design, but with fairly limited design tools we can utilize to do so, leaving the final product possibly prone to either being a fairly linear result, or a fairly generic OTR Cap that might not satisfactorily capture what makes Caly-I distinct. I'm not entirely convinced that this is a bad thing. but I do think there's merit to an alternative direction. Because of this, I'd like to bring up an uber that was a popular point of discussion before concept poll and through early CA, but has since dissapeared from the conversaiton-
Necrozma Dusk Mane.

I am not an expert on NDM so I am going to look at specifically the two main sets that I saw a lot of early discssion around, that I think offer a really interesting design juxtaposition while placing itself as a possible alternative for Caly-I as an OTR Cap.

Focusing on the specific combination of both dragon dance and trick room sets provides us a fascinating juxtapositon to design around, with a difficult question to answer that has less clear answers. I think this offers a less linear route than Caly-I while still carrying on the OTR mantle, and helps capture the wide versatility of Ubers mons while honing in on two very specific sets that provide a vey deliberate contrast instead of trying to represent an ungodly combination of 10 different sets.

 

[Rysachi]

I'm seconding Calyrex-Ice here, because I think it's an exemplar of the Ubers mindset, and for the following reasons.
Trick Room
Snowball
Typing
Stats
Clear Niche

Alright from my initial post, it is pretty clear that Calyrex-Ice has by far sparked the largest debate out of the 3 proposed CAP's, with the community giving reasons both for and against and I want to further dive into these well divided categories on what a Calyrex-Ice Uber could provide and whether I think it's a good route or not.

Self Trick Room and Clear Niche:
I'm going to be completely honest, whilst Calyrex-Ice is the perfect example of this and the idea would allow us to create our own CAP version of Stakataka, my intention of suggesting Calyrex-Ice was not this. We previously had a perfect slate suggestion during previous CAPs regarding Self TR abuse and I feel if we were to use Mini Uber as way to bring forward a previous slate, it wouldn't give justice to this winning slate we have now and we should have resubmitted the slate again to see if there was a rise of popularity and imo this approach is by far the most restrictive which going off other Uber suggestions e.g. or , there seems to be a slight favourtism to a multi-role Uber, which TR abuse simply does not fit however if there is a large demand for this route then it's certainly a viable option that can be worked with to try and create some flexibility on when it can and can't abuse TR and if there are any other sets it can use instead of TR in certain team comps e.g. Agility or SubSeed.

Snowball:
In my initial post I was completely against the idea of allowing a CAP Mini Uber to have such a drastic snowballing effect but the more I think about it, it's actually a pretty unique concept that we don't currently have throughout the CAP pool in a sense of stat boosts once you claim a kill. Whilst I think it limits us a lot in the ability discussion, it gives us a lot to think about how we can balance the CAP in a way that somewhat resembles Calyrex-Ice snowball affect without the other broken parts about it.

Typing + Stats:
This was the main category to which why I initially suggested Calyrex-Ice. Even if we don't replicate Ice/Psychic, what intrigued me the most is that this type combination is horrendous to say the least defensively and offensively has a couple of gaps that would lead to this typing struggle to hit without coverage or tera. This concept of potentially finding a very suboptimal type combination that can justify a larger BST/BSR flexibility than what we typically see through normal CAP processes (we would still need to tone down from Calyrex-Ice as those stats are ridiculous even on the worst type combination you can think of) can make for an interesting process on how we can make a bad typing still feel like an offensive tank that is hard to remove and gives us a lot of flexibility on how we tone down Calyrex-Ice to be allowed in a CAP setting.

I hope this finally puts to rest some questions and debate on what the initial post described about my opinions on what Calyrex-Ice can provide as a slate idea.

Also quick shoutout of support to both and concepts as I'm quite a big fan of the idea of a multi-role Uber being explored and gives us immense flexibility in the process whilst giving us a clearer goal compared to the likes of formes which imo feel we would need a lot more discussion on which typing and what specifically about that typing stands out as a flexible option in the process compared to Yveltal and Groudon.

 

[Spammernoob]

TL Update
For extra visibility: TLT and I discussed, and decided only actual Ubers-viable sets are allowed.

Also, this will be 48h warning for subs for this stage. After this, we'll poll the Uber and then we can discuss which elements of the Uber we wish to recreate (at varying levels of abstraction).

 

[Feldirion]

From discussion I've seen, I think Caly-I is one of the more popular ideas, namely for its specific twist on OTR (Awkward Defensive Typing + Snowballing). While this provides a clear direction, which I think is valuable here- this clear direction has also been raised as a potential weakness. It's a relatively straight forward design, but with fairly limited design tools we can utilize to do so, leaving the final product possibly prone to either being a fairly linear result, or a fairly generic OTR Cap that might not satisfactorily capture what makes Caly-I distinct. I'm not entirely convinced that this is a bad thing. but I do think there's merit to an alternative direction. Because of this, I'd like to bring up an uber that was a popular point of discussion before concept poll and through early CA, but has since dissapeared from the conversaiton-
Necrozma Dusk Mane.

I've been one of the pro-Calyrex team, but I think Necrozma Dusk Mane is an equally interesting option. You said you were calling for other's thoughts, and it's a Pokemon I've got a bit of experience with. So I did some pondering, and... here are my thoughts.

NDM has a few notable selling points, but the main one is versatility. That's been something a lot of these Ubers brandish, but NDM is one of the more interesting ones. You specifically called out Trick Room and Dragon Dance, but NDM can also operate as a wall, a Special attacker, a Shared Power sweeper... it's up there with some Arceus forms in how many sets it can run, and that gives us more freedom then Calyrex-Ice would.

NDM is also a mon that succeeds because of it's stats, but it's bolstered by an incredible defensive typing. It does lose out on some of Calyrex-Ice's unique selling points: poor typing and a snowball playstyle, but it also affords us a much wider creative field. Which of it's playstyles do we try to blend? Do we reduce stats more or keep a beneficial typing?

Mostly hoping to provoke some discussion on this as we come up to deadline, as I'm relatively unexperienced in the CAP process (having only dropped in halfway through Obliteryx) and I'd like to hear some other people's opinions.

 

[traceyscetchit]

This is gonna be a LOT

Zygarde and Mega Salamence

I'm kinda torn on zygarde. On one hand, I love the pokemon and it has very clear traits that set it apart from cap/ou pokemon. At the same time, its primary trait, thousand arrows, is hard to replicate without shoehorning in one of a few solutions, none of which are particularly satisfying. Freeze dry is cool but its hard to not run freeze dry and ice beam together (unless we deny ice beam!?). Tinted lens and scrappy are fine but take up ability, and only having two routes isn't great. There's also power construct, which we just can't replicate well. Zygarde without power construct is already well explored by... zygarde without power construct. Its still a solid choice just not as solid as I wish it was.

Mega salamence does zygarde's job in a significantly more healthy way. It still has that one attacking type thing but its less restrictive, and doesn't have a core feature that's physically impossible to port, like power construct. Its also fast setup which is more proven in the current metagame and doesn't rely on subpara, which is pretty toxic. Basically go with this over zygarde please, its just way more sensible.

Calyrex-I and Necrozma-DM

Calyrex-I is just offensive trick room. Like, flat out, if we're doing Caly-I, it has to be for selfroom. The other aspects are interesting though, and I think honing in on poor defensive typing or snowball is a good idea if we want direction (still, either is optional and selfroom can go a lot of places on its own). But self trick room is a unique niche that doesn't exist in gen 9. Stakataka is a perfect actualization of this concept, but there are plenty of non-stakataka routes to go down by just picking different typing/ability/movepool. Caly-I is probably in my top 2 picks right now (between it and eternatus).

Necrozma-DM is an... interesting alternative. I like the speed boosting vs trick room dichotomy in theory, but its hard to achieve because offensive trick room as a concept is a lot more inclined to the faster paced ubers metagames. It can easily work in cap, but the "other option" will likely be too tempting to run trick room sets. Its an opportunity cost thing. For example, someone mentioned shift gear vs trick room on discord. Shift gear is just better. It doesn't set your sweep on a timer, it boosts damage by one stage, and it saves a moveslot over trick room+sd (or you run gear+sd lmao). In ubers, caly and necrozma often prefer trick room to speed boosting, but in our metagame balancing the two against each other will likely feel like something along the lines of trying to balance power up punch against victory dance.

Koraidon

Basically triple stab. You could do interesting things with "this mon can viably run either immediate speed or speed ramp" too. My issue with this is that the thing that makes a koraidon feel like a koraidon is fire/fighting coverage on a strong fast pokemon and blaziken just does that. Blaziken doesn't do the two things koraidon does on a theoretical level, but it just feels exactly like a koraidon to use. There's not really anything wrong with korai as a pick, it just would be more similar mechanically than vibey.

Eternatus

Eternatus is probably in my top 2 picks right now (between it and caly-i). To me, it embodies ubers statlines/abilities very well, while still having a unique statline within in the ubers metagame. Eternatus is a fast tank. It has all three of speed, bulk, and power, even when adjusted for the ubers power level. This is abnormal. Pokemon typically get 2 of those 3 things, and sometimes only 1. For a few other examples of mons like this, see offensive zapdos, latias/latios, and zamazenta. Then there's the ability, which is pretty bad, especially on an offensive pokemon, but is surprisingly valuable in the ubers metagame. And then there's the beautiful movepool, with exactly the tools eternatus needs to function but with slightly more tools than eternatus has moveslots. Its all very compelling.

Imo Eternatus would be the most interesting Pokémon to model off if Mega Dragalge didn't exist

Also, to bumboclaat (big fan btw), we technically are supposed to futureproof somewhat minimally. There's also a pretty big speed difference, plus regenerator, plus the fact that we are unlikely to steal typing 1 for 1.

Arceus, Primal Groudon, and DPP Groudon

Uhh, yeah this is an interesting trio. Let me explain myself with the arc placement. Arceus achieves its massive set variety through its ability, multitype. CAP cannot have multitype. Picking arceus as a whole with the intent of copying arceus's set variety, while ignoring the method by which that set variety is obtained, is naive. However, arceus forms on an individual level are great models for versatility, and in my opinion, arceus-ground is by far the best among them. Its dragon dance set is the most threatening sweeper in all of ubers. Not the most powerful, but threatening. If arc-ground can get its water-type checks weathered down enough, it often just flat out wins the game. Aside from those counters its nearly unwallable and has to be accounted for as a threat at all times, even when its on the back of the opponent's team. And then that same pokemon can also play as a lead or wall. Its pretty crazy. I think arc-ground distills what people want from arceus as a whole very nicely.

Now pairing arceus with the groudons makes sense. All three are both versatile bulky grounds, with a speed/attack boosting set, a defensive set, and random special moves on physical sets (eruption/overheat, ice beam, and lava plume). I think these all have a similar direction, with pros and cons for each. Pdon's interesting trait is its lack of weaknesses, only taking super effective damage from ground type moves and sometimes primal kyogre. Its often agnostic matchups allow defensive pdon guarantee progress into most teams, but its hard to use because the amount of progress and where it goes is very flexible. I think I like arc ground a little better than the groudons because it can be either a physical or special sweeper, and I think that's pretty neat, and it feels more aligned to the cap meta in some ways (eg wall pdon is leaning towards a tank by cap standards imo).

Yveltal

Yveltal is an offensive toolbox. It has a ton of tools it can viably run, and while a lot of toolbox pokemon stack up on coverage or support options while centering around one stab, yveltal even has a bunch of stabs, both physical and special, that it can mix and match, leading to strange ev spreads. This feels hard to balance but its cooler than I felt initially. Yveltal kinda amplifies the koraidon's issue though where the vibes and mechanics aren't really tied. A crazy offensive toolbox probably wouldn't feel like yveltal to me without mixed dark/flying stab.

Ho-oh

Pretty much a regenerator concept. A 4x weakness choice band/scarf user seems overambitious in a gholdengo metagame (unless its magic guard), but 2x should be doable. Its not particularly interesting to me though; I think the only aspect of regenerator that would I would find interesting to explore would be a naturally fast regenerator, like mienshao.

Marshadow

Revenankh

Marshadow, for real this time

This mon is cool, and I approve of it. It's fast and strong, but not overbearing, and serves as a bit of an "anticheese" mon that breaks through stall, removes boosts, can priority revenge-kill, and counters a handful of top meta pokemon. All of these are fair things to build around.

Xerneas

Simple quiver dance? Honestly I would be down but I'm probably the only one. But ignoring the gargantuan elephant in the room of geomancy and focusing on the support/choice locked movesets of a pokemon with the strongest boosting move ever barring z-moves is strange to me though.

Primal Kyogre

This doesn't seem possible without primordial sea, because the closest analogue to primordial sea is drizzle and at that point just go model it after regular kyogre. In contrast, a cap modeled after Pdon could easily have an immunity ability for any of its weaknesses, or drop the immunity angle all together and focus on versatility.
I've thought about it more and maybe there's a little more to poger than I was thinking at first. Basically, poger's a pokemon that uses cm to wallbreak reliably but is only a semi-reliable sweeper. Presumably bulk up would be a valid actualization as well. Imo there's a lot of overlap with cm primarina, especially the moonblast variant, but its probably still workable.

edit: Updated primal kyogre and yveltal, added mega salamence

 

[IGotEaten]

Now while I’m not the most amazing Ubers player of all times, I did some research and I do believe I have developed some viable opinions on a couple of these.

seems like a very solid option, providing a unique combination of speed, offense and defense largely unseen in OU/CAP as well as a relatively scary type and movepool. While it seems like a challenge to scale at some level, this has the potential to be a big mover and shaker in the Gen 9 CAP meta if we play our cards right.

feels like we would be replacing Blaziken, and Blaziken can be but isn’t used in CAP. If you want to explore my reasoning further, I direct you to the above post, because I don’t wanna mince their words.

Hear me out here, but I wanted to bring him up because he has the very unique function of not relying primarily on his Attack stat for solid damage as a physical attacker, with Body Press and Iron Defense (bonus points Heavy Slam). I also feel like his ability is an interesting consideration in Gen 9, being not as heavily affected by his fall from grace as his twin brother.

Just a quick thing on Calyrex-I, I think selfroom is fine, I guess. However, Necrozma-Dusk would be my personal leaning for the snowball approach.

Was just informed that Zama is no longer an Uber, which was news to me.

 

[viol and bass]

Proposing Mega Salamence. Man this guy was cool. It hasn't existed since gen 7 obviously, but it's fairly unique. It has a pretty typical Ubers build stat-wise with considerable attack power, good bulk, and good speed. Obviously it's locked into holding a mega stone. Part of its function in gen 7 Ubers is defensive, as a check with reliable recovery to mons like Primal Groudon and Ho-oh (Aerilate Facade means it doesn't mind burn on most of its sets). It can serve as an effective defogger as well. Primarily, it served as an offensive threat though.

Most of this mon's intrigue comes from its monotype attacking sets enabled by Aerilate. The foremost set is DD Roost Facade Double-Edge. Double-edge is powered up by Aerilate to be 144 base power, while statused Facade becomes a nuclear 168. Flying has no immunities, and there are pretty constrained flying resists in general in that tier. Despite being one of the more threatening offensive mons in the tier, of the mon's three listed sets on the Smogon dex, the only non-flying attacking move listed on any of them is a secondary slash for Dragon Tail on a defensive set. It gets away with no coverage whatsoever most of the time, even on sweeping sets. This isn't for lack of coverage options, it's more that Mence's flying moves hit hard enough that coverage becomes mostly superfluous.

Anyway, in terms of abstracting this thing's traits, monotype attacking is the big one (and specifically, hard-hitting offensive monotype attacking rather than fat setup that can't threaten you for many turns). Sets like that are a rarity. Its defensive traits in checking certain powerful threats might also be something to look at, and there may be a status resilience angle to emulate Aerilate Facade allowing this mon to switch in on mons like Ho-oh pretty freely. The mon even sometimes ran Refresh on defensive sets. There may even be a "rigid versatility" angle where a powerful STAB option enables set versatility, because I would say Mega Mence exhibits that fairly nicely with its set mix.

 

[a fairy]

If we go with Arceus, I hope we narrow the scope to some specific Arceus role. Mini-Uber inherently is a concept that will get subsumed by "this is a new concept identity now" but I think Arceus is going to be the absolute worst of it if we don't narrow it to a specific way Arceus plays. Do you really want to make an CAP that can do everything an Arceus can do? I would hope that rather than try to stuff every wincon into the poor 'mon, we go with "let's make it the utility GOAT" or "what if it could set up on both sides of the binary" or even "this 'mon can be any type" - but these aren't really Arceus, now is it?

Can we consider Iron Bundle? A lot of Ubers hit ridiculously hard and fast, but Iron Bundle is sorta unique in that it has several flaws (move accuracy, typing, HP/SpDef stat) that limit it from being these behemoths. Its analysis mentions that it has perfect coverage which is quite the get, and yet beyond Doubles formats, it is a mostly forgotten Uber that could quite be a nugget of exploration. It's obviously Uber, what a pain it was when it was around, and yet, what is similar to it? What is doing the same kinda things IB is doing, what struggles with its struggles? The second list is obviously a larger answer, but the former really doesn't seem like there's anything.

I know IB is not a super motivating Uber. Why IB when you can grab a box legendary or whatever? But a lot of these box legendaries are similarly overpowered for the sake of the box legendary status, sure this one has a cool custom move and that one has a sick ability or whatever, but we have the opportunity to explore a tool overtuned and then abandoned and reintroduce something that was just too far along the power level back with another try with 4 years (x.x) of SV knowledge.

 

[Explosion Badger]

Gonna give my thoughts on some of the ubers suggested so far, and then propose something a little...avant garde, you might say. Let's get into it.

Eternatus

I can definitely see why Eternatus is liked for this. Not only does it offer the mix offense and defense that defines ubers, but it almost seems like a "perfect" mesh of them, thanks mostly to its impressive speed stat. Similar to OU Staple Dragapult, Eternatus' high speed and consistent, complimentary STABs allow it to function as a strong special attacker that's difficult to wall. However, because it lacks setup or access to multiple multipliers, its offense is tame compared to other Uber mons. Defensively, while its type is not the best, its mix of unique matchups, combined with Eternatus' good bulk, status spreading, and ability to Pressure Stall with fast recovery means that it can provide support while also being very difficult to get rid of. While I do wonder if the resulting mon might have some overlap with Dragapult, I do see a Mini-Eternatus being interesting.

Ho-oh

The idea of Mini-Ho-oh feels a bit limited and redundant when comsidering it for the CAP meta. In fact, that redeundancy almost seems by design. CAP has long coveted the role compression of Sacred Fire, and with the arrival of both Ramnarok and Obliteryx, we have that burn spreading damage in spades, along with plenty of other statuses flying around. Regenerator also limits us, as not running it makes it hard to replicate the absurd survivability the bird has.

Calyrex Ice

This one is weird. While I can understand the appeal of making a slow pokemon with a terrible defensive typing viable, it feels like this is mostly just answered by everything else about Caly Ice being ABSURD. Extremely high bulk, even for the Ubers tier, combined with an immense attacked stat backed up by an 120 power move with zero reprocussions for using it. In the likely event that you can't kill it, there's a very good chance it can kill you in return. It feels less interesting than it seems tbh, especially with Terastallization allowing it to patch up its main weakness. Again, while I can understand the appeal in both making a slow pokemon with a bad defensive typing and a trick room abuser, I'm really not sure how many options we're left with that don't just repeat what Caly Ice is already doing.

Dusk Mane Necrozma

This is the Trick Room Abuser that I prefer, mainly because its got a lot more going on. Dusk Mane has some of the most insane role compression of any Ubers mon: in every gen since its debut, not only has it had multiple offensive and defensive sets, but its had bulky booster sets that allow it to be defensive pivot, late game sweeper, and useful utility mon, all in the same single set. All of this is made even more impressive by Dusk Mane's below average speed stat, which requires it to often stack multiple boosts just to get ahead of many staples in the tier. Honestly, while it could be extremely difficult to succesfully create a Pokémon that matches Dusk Mane's versatility, I think it would be a fun process all the same.

Koraidon

Out of all of the "Multiplier stack" Pokémon in ubers, Koraidon definitely seems like the most interesting pick. Rather than simply putting most or all of its multipliers into a single, spammable move, Koraidon essentially has 3 STABs, making it the hardest pokemon to wall in the tier. Checking Koraidon often requires multiple pivots, each switching in to waste Koraidon's sun turns and slowly chip it down with Flare Blitz recoil. The Flare Blitz recoil is definitely part of what makes Koraidon intresting imo, as alongside a lack of recovery; it makes Koraidon far more reliant on prediction and good play than other similar multiplier stackers. While it might be a very difficult process in terms of making a balanced Pokémon, I can see the appeal in making sucj a high-execution result.

And now, for my proposal. Its a bit odd, but hear me out.

I want to propose Advanced Lugia as a possible route of exploration. the main criteria are as follows:

• Absurd Survivability- Similar to Eternatus, Lugia boasts extremely high bulk, combined with an impressive speed stat, recovery and Pressure, making Lugia one of the most obnoxious to remove Pokémon in the ADV tier. It can serve as a check to Groudon thanks to its Earthquake Immunity, and with Toxic and Whirlwind, it can make up for its lack of direct damage output by whittling down opponents and preventing setup sweepers from snowballing.
• Lower Power, but Extreme Spammability- While it might seem absurd to believe that Lugia ever had an offensive role in Ubers, it actually had ways to achieve this. Despite base 90 Attack and SpAtk being polite by even ADV UU standards, it manages to succeed simply by how spammable its attacks are. For one, the Calm Mind/Ice Beam set tears up a tier infested by Groudon and Dragon types. The main point of interest, however, is the Choice Band set, which uses Aeroblast's reliable, difficult to resist Flying STAB as a way to break through a large chunk of the tier, while Earthquake broke many of the few resists Aeroblast had. Lugia's huge bulk and high speed added even more to the spammability, making it easy to get onto the field and fire off consistent damage at the opponents.

 

[Cheryl.]

This is kind of piggybacking off of mentions of similarly offense-oriented Ubers like Iron Bundle and Koraidon. What about the original (well, besides Mew) Uber? Mewtwo used to be, to put it simply, the best Pokemon in the game. Obviously, this was back in Gens 1/2 where the Dex number was MUCH smaller than it was now, and power creep hadn't really started yet, but it wasn't the best for no reason. It had the best offenses between its stellar SpA, very good Attack and Speed, the classic Gen 1 movepool which meant it got pretty much everything in terms of coverage (and other amazing tools like Recover), and while its bulk these days isn't stellar, it's still enough to get the job done if we're comparing it to OU mons. This insane mix of traits allowed Mewtwo to run pretty much whatever it wanted to in its prime. All of these traits still apply to Mewtwo today too, besides its Speed tier being a bit eclipsed as of recent times. It's even gotten small buffs over time with tools like Nasty Plot, Calm Mind, and its signature move Psystrike being added to its arsenal. And despite all of that, the original Uber has been languishing in the low ranks for the past couple of gens. I'm not an Ubers expert, but I imagine a large part of this is because Mewtwo doesn't offer much to the builder defensively with its "mid" defenses and mono Psychic typing. This is pretty rough in such a centralized meta where you kind of need all of your slots to cover something defensively so you don't get ran over. Even mons like Lunala, boasting an even worse typing defensively than Mewtwo, still finds more usage because of its ability bolstering its defensive prowess so that it can offer more to the builder than Mewtwo can. Its a sad fate for the goat, especially considering its still much too powerful to ever be let down into OU.

With this process, however, maybe we could create a balanced Mewtwo.. I kinda word vomited but the main selling points of picking this Uber for me would be:

• Creating an offensive beast that exhibits large threat potential whenever it is brought in successfully (as a Mewtwo would do with its vast coverage pool and amazing Speed). Basically creating a good glass cannon
• Balancing it through limited defensive prowess, trying to create a viable CAP in 2026 SV that doesn't really check many boxes in the builder defensively could be interesting as most recent CAPs have trended toward bulk or solid defensive types even if they went offensive (Chuggalong and Ramnarok check important threats for offense teams for example).
• Despite what I said about it being a good glass cannon and limited potential defensively, Mewtwo's still got 106/90/90 defenses and has ran bulky sets in the past despite its poor typing (the first set in its DPP analysis is a max HP set, both DPP and BW analyses include "StallTwo" sets as well!). Maybe we could choose to play around with that potential as well by giving it good utility options to make use of despite the likely meh typing it would have.
• its Mewtwo

I didn't think super hard about this but I was a bit surprised to see no mentions of Mewtwo in the thread so I thought I'd give it a last minute shoutout to potentially spark some discussion.

 

[CapitanPabloskii]

I want to put my support behind a Koraidon/Miraidon style process, but not in the "3 STAB" way I've seen Koraidon being talked about. Much rather in the "stack boosts fast" way I adressed in my first post. Miraidon is a perfect example of this and the one that takes it further than every other uber, as out the gate, Miraidons Electric moves can have 1.33x from Electric Terrain and 1.33x from Hadron Engine, which in total can also mean Miraidon can additionally have1.3x from Life Orb, 1.5x from STAB, and 1.33x from Tera, which can be boosted by Calm Mind one turn later. I suppose just the Electric Terrain and Hadron Engine are Miraidon specific, but those are still huge boosts and not many mons can even pull everything off like Miraidon does. Koraidon may be simmilar, with a commen set being Choice Band, meaning 1.33x from Orachalcum Pulse, 1.5x from Choice Band 1
33x from Tera, and for Fire type moves specifically there is also 1.5x from sun and 1.5x from Tera. These are huge boosts that these Pokemon are dependant on, just look at the Rillaboom vs Miraidon matchup in VGC, where restricteds are allowed. Without the extra boosts Electric Terrain gives Miraidon, it is way weaker. I would love to see a boost stacking Pokemon in CAP.

 

[Gekokeso]

Coming in to give a writeup in defense of cause I feel people who have written in support on it have focused on the wrong things about the pokémon:

People are gonna tell you about its ability of setting trick room for itself, its bulk, yadda yadda, but not enough people actually explore what makes Calyrex unique and why it has some actual positive value in Ubers. Back during SS there was a significant chunk of people that genuinely believed that this thing would be completely unviable not only in Ubers but in OU as well, given its terrible speed and terrible typing, and at a first glance yeah, its a pokémon that you wouldn't really give the light of day to. Ice Psychic typing is in contention for the worst typing ever as its mediocre offensive and hilariously terrible defensively. Coupled with the fact that not a single slow ice type had ever reached a whiff of viability (at the time, as every single ice type slower than mamoswine or Cloyster ended up in ZU, people thought they had found the new Kyurem-Black to release into OU.

And then the calcs started to show up and people realized that Calyrex-Ice was actually pretty decent in ubers, and had it been freed in ou it would have tore the tier apart. As it turns out, 100/150/130 bulk still makes you ridiculously unkillable even with a shit defensive typing, and unlike Kyurem-Black, Calyrex has both effective physical coverage with the likes of High Horsepower and Close Combat, as well as a extremely spamable move in Glaciar Lance. It took longer than necesary, but eventually people left the massive psychosis behind and realized that this thing would defenestrate OU if freed, so it stayed in Ubers. With calyrex-shadow being so much more ridiculous, Caly-Ice was a very low tier in Ubers but with a pair of well respected niches to fill.

Then generation 9 came around, and both terastalization and the calyrex-shadow ban gave calyrex-ice a chance to shine.

Calyrex-Ice in generation 9 ubers is a unique case that I don't think has ever been explored in any metagame ever: A slow ice type that is not only viable in the metagame, but also viable BECAUSE its a slow ice type. Yeah you can argue that what makes it viable is that it is a fat fuck that hits like a truck and is extremely hard for mons to switch into, which with terastalization it means it can setup on a lot of stuff as well and its not wrong, its why its able to do everything it can do.

But the actual niche that Calyrex-Ice has in ubers thanks to its unique traits is what we should absolutely focus on: As you may know, Ubers is a significantly more offensive metagame than OU. This tends to mean that fast paced teams tend to do very good, and while usually stall teams do very good against them, fast teams have multiple ways to get past said defensive checks. Sticky Web teams in particular take to be pretty strong as what people use to do to counter them was to run sub-optimal trick room sets or be fored to pack a uu magic bounce mon to ensire the opponent couldn't gets webs on you. Calryrex-Ice is a different threat to these teams, especially sticky webs teams, as while it is usually bulky enough to take a hit from either mon, with trick room it can flip the speed advantage on the opposing team and threaten to sweep them in return. It being an ice type is not a detriment, but part of what makes it so good in a tier where dragon and ground are some of the most common typings around, and the little waters and steels that exist are not too safe from its coverage. Its existence forces most offensive structures, especially sticky webs, to pack answers for it to ensure that the team won't fold to the horse.

Calyrex-Ice's niche in ubers is something that not only hasn't been replicated in the lower tiers, but its also a niche that very little pokémon in ubers has managed to fill across multiple generations. You should focus not on its snowball potential but in the way that its mere presence affects the speed tier game in ubers and how that makes the tier way more unique that other metas.

 

[Guingil]

Some thoughts on what has been submitted until now, specifically regarding versatility as a selling point. Might be a little bit abstract, but the other feedback posts in the thread free me to yap about other things LOL.

TL;DR: we have to be careful about versatility’s correlation with Ubers' base kit strength.

Translation type framework	Examples
Most literal translation	Manaphy > Phione
Less literal, where you remove certain aspects while retaining others	Calyrex-I > Stakataka (inferior spammable STAB, offensive typing) Koraidon > Miasmaw (coverage is not all-STAB, no Attack boost, Rocks-weak)
More recreation, where you are free to employ a lot of different tools to capture the "feel"/"niche" of the work	Giratina-O > Mollux (hazard removal, anti-setup option that is also resilient to the best priority in the tier)

The word “translation” has sometimes been used with regard to our concept, and I think it is a particularly apt one. A good translation of a book into another language is not the most literal translation; it is often a recreation to communicate what its “core” is with tools available in another context, language, and a vastly different culture. I would like to extend this metaphor to the recreation of a Pokemon from Ubers to the more decentralized OU/CAP. Particularly, with regard to the versatility of having multiple sets, I echo spammernoob’s thoughts about this being a particularly difficult thing to translate due to the languages of the tiers being too different.

I think we should think carefully about the type of translations that work. A lot of Uber-viable Pokemon are crazy bulky as well as crazy strong. For all their versatility, it is often a necessity to fill out roles due to the lack of other Pokemon at that power level. In OU/CAP, however, the competition for a spot is high(er) and there are a lot of Pokemon that have their own specific “niche” within a role. Consequently, only a few meaningful sets emerge from one Pokemon to form a niche. Kingambit, which famously has only one set analysis, possesses two other functional abilities, Defiant and Pressure, as well as a movepool with options like Stealth Rock and Thunder Wave. Never used. In CAP, Hemogoblin was (I think) famously given Boomburst as well as Fiery Dance, but special sets turned out to be irrelevant in the face of Pixiespeed + Bitter Blade. Intimidate still isn't used, and Spikes to some extent wasn’t, before the nerf. Revenankh possesses Glare and Knock Off but rarely uses them; Arghonaut and Mollux have setup options with Bulk Up and Calm Mind along with stuff like Drain Punch and Draining Kiss, respectively, but these are rarely seen. And so on.

My first point, then, is that the bar is higher for achieving set versatility in OU/CAP than in Uber, even though on paper you might have the options. My second point is that jumping over this bar with the same strong base kit + options combination is not the only way to reproduce versatility if that is indeed our goal; in fact, ignoring the context of the different demands of the OU/CAP tier makes it equivalent to a literal translation. Where in Uber this versatility was driven by a “need”, in OU/CAP it risks becoming a “want,” as elucidated by viol and bass in their brilliant post about this dichotomy.

Trying to force versatility can result in a gross, surface-level similar monstrosity. Two Pokemon that come to mind in SV OU are Kyurem and Zamazenta, going from plain offense to tanks (SubTect, Iron Defense) to wacky stuff like Mixed Dragon Dance with Icicle Spear/Freeze Dry/Earth Power and Screens. Perhaps this achieves concept (these are very literally mini-Ubers), but they are also some of the best Pokemon in the tier with the highest stat totals/BSR. Looking at some of the other versatile sets submitted for consideration, we have Primal Groudon (best Pokemon in the tier), Koraidon (best Pokemon in the tier), Ho-Oh/Necrozma-DM (in the tier just below the strongest), etc. spoo has previously mentioned that versatility is strength; conversely, I think, it is often the case that versatility is enabled by an extremely strong base kit that can do anything. Basically this meme:

Therefore, I think honing in on the unique niche of the Uber Pokemon as a target to emulate instead of versatility is the less risky and more in-concept path to go. Versatility can occur as emergent design, but targeting it while ensuring the kit is healthy is a daunting task. Aurumoth was a particularly egregious example of what happens when you want everything, and I wouldn't want us to replicate that. Almost all of the submissions in the thread work in defining something unique, even if we ignore their versatility aspect. Versatility also exists for non-Uber Pokemon (Samurott, Hatterene, Clefable, Base Necrozma, Mew, etc), but these are enabled in different, more mechanically unique ways for the former three (one of them was a concept!) or fail to reach adequate usage in OU for the latter two. Cresselia has rapidly risen in OU over the last few months, actually using its ability to fit on many teams with different sets as a strength... perhaps this is the closest thing to the type outlined in the posts?

 

[quziel]

I am still Calyrex-Ice's biggest hater. Every argument I've seen for it is either about OTR mon or viable slow Ice. A brief search (in post BW, I am ignoring Reun) returns Necrozma-Dusk Mane, Calyrex-Ice Rider, Magearna, and Stakataka as proper main set viable OTR mons. Three out of these four pokemon have one thing in common. They can turn a KO into +1. This is beyond necessary for an OTR sweeper as realistically you have 4 turns to end the game, and probably the single easiest way to waste one of those turns is to sack a 10% Raging Bolt, which Neigh/Soul Heart/Beast Boost directly punish. I don't know that I'm saying that OTR mon requires us to basically copy ability, but if the vibe we're going for is OTR sweeper, then its something that'll be the default choice come ability stage. As for slow Ice-type I don't really buy this as a compelling reason to choose it. If we're going to choose a mon we should be trying to replicate its vibe, and if doing so trivializes one of the CAP stages, then its a bad choice.

Similarly, Ho-Oh is also a bad choice. The mon is defined by Regenerator to a greater degree than any other pokemon besides potentially Toxapex, and even there Ho-Oh likely edges it out.

As for the high-BST / Versatility / Luxury argument I think its a valid way to go about this concept. Zamazenta and Kyurem are two OU pokemon that most feel like "mini-ubers", with Kyurem itself being an excellent distillation of its Uber counterparts, albeit at a barely OU power level. Yeah it'll make the twitter post where we show off the mon into an utter shit-show, but its an extremely valid route forward. By that I mean choosing one of the versatility mons aka Etern, Arc, or Groudon.


I like Mega-Mence in the same way that I considered proposing Arceus-Flying. There's something to be said about a "flying brick", or a pokemon that requires its main stab, and by virtue of its main stab having excellent coverage can just run a selection of very interesting 4th slot options. Mega-Mence has the luxury of running Double-Edge + Facade, but also has run options as diverse as Defog over DD, Refresh (shared with Arc-F), and if memory serves me correctly even special stabs. To sorta mood-board this, copying Mega-Mence means choosing an excellent mono-attacking STAB, and sorta going for a well-rounded but offensively focused stat spread. Finally, we should aim to round out its sweeping sets using utilitiy moves rather than pure coverage.


I'm also similarly a major fan of Primal Kyogre. Ultimately a mon that focuses on wallbreaking and trading to force a favorable gamestate isn't new, but I'd argue setup-forward wallbreakers are a bit less common nowadays, and having a universal damage steroid for its physical and special sets is a bit unique. Feel if we can thread the needle with special setup wallbreaker, a more flexible physical wallbreaker, and then rest-talk, or some equivalently awkward walling set then we're there. I think that kinda dynamic is very achievable, as well, making a mixed wallbreaker set appear on a specially biased mon is a matter of desirable coverage typings. One thing that this isn't is a mon that requires like, Drizzle, Prim-Sea, or something like that. The defining part of the mon really is a mono (feeling) typing, likely a damage steroid, and then them stats. Also importantly, its a setup wallbreaker without Tera-Fairy Draining Kiss.


I am going to break my own rules that I've set out above here because I think Arceus-Ghost is just one of the coolest mons we could possibly do. Shadow Force is inaccessible, but god its such a cool move. A main set viable 2 turn move that manages to be difficult to take advantage of due to bypassing protect (not unique to it mind you) and its raw power (144 BP) is just one of the coolest things we could go for. Not only that the mon runs an extremely potent CM set that manages to make use of Tera-Stellar. Now the issue is that frankly the mon gets used for its Ghost-typing and the level of hazard-infested-ness of the ubers meta. That said, its possible to make a mon that has a similar level of effect on the hazard meta as a fat ghost. To distill this: 2 main sets, SD and CM, a 2 turn stab on at least one set, and abilitiy or typing make you want to include it on offensive teams for some sort of utility.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I am going to break my own rules that I've set out above here because I think Arceus-Ghost is just one of the coolest mons we could possibly do. Shadow Force is inaccessible, but god its such a cool move. A main set viable 2 turn move that manages to be difficult to take advantage of due to bypassing protect (not unique to it mind you) and its raw power (144 BP) is just one of the coolest things we could go for. Not only that the mon runs an extremely potent CM set that manages to make use of Tera-Stellar. Now the issue is that frankly the mon gets used for its Ghost-typing and the level of hazard-infested-ness of the ubers meta. That said, it's possible to make a mon that has a similar level of effect on the hazard meta as a fat ghost. To distill this: 2 main sets, SD and CM, a 2 turn stab on at least one set, and abilitiy or typing make you want to include it on offensive teams for some sort of utility.

i really vibe with this idea, especially the concept of a viable 2-turn semi-invulnerable move, which i think is definitely worthy of being a low-level part of a cap design process. it's a real rarity to actually want to run a move that eats momentum and provides switch-in opportunities like that, and i think asking questions like "how do we make a pokemon actively invested in running such a move as a central part of its kit" and "what tools and roles would be able to best exploit the semi-invulnerable turn" would give us a lot of possibilities to explore

i also think "makes good use of tera stellar" should be part of the focus if we use arceus-ghost as a template. it's existed for nearly three years now and still manages to be very underexplored in ou-level formats, and i think that's a very interesting design space that we can play around in

 

[dex]

I really like Eternatus as a suggestion. Eternatus is a great modern-gen example of how some Ubers have had to make do with limited movesets. In SS, it ran Cosmic Power without access to Stored Power, Draco Meteor + Eject Pack to make up for its lack of U-turn, and Meteor Beam to compensate for its lack of special setup. I think this is a really cool route to go because a lot of the Ubers that have been suggested so far hinge on some "broken" characteristic, some reason that makes them so strong. This feature of Eternatus, on the other hand, is the opposite, and yet it is still a feature that multiple Ubers have had to deal with. Big fan.

 

[Zetalz]

Had way more to say when I started writing this post days ago but it was a fustercluck of sick-induced ramblings so here's the ultra-compressed version. Not posting as Moves SL specifically, but I will state that the Ubers that appeal to me the most here are ones who succeed in claiming their niche without necessarily utilizing a gargantuan and/or exceptionally optimized offensive movepool. We tend to favor mons with these traits when building here at CAP, so purposefully attempting to break away from that mold is what interests me most, and I think is quite doable within the confines of this concept.



These 3 in particular I feel play well into differentiating themselves from the Ubers crowd. Not much to add that hasn't been spoken for them already but here's some thoughts anyway.

Emulating Etern I think is the perfect foundation for creating an OU mon that can reach a level of flexibility not otherwise seen in the tier, without becoming overbearing. We play a delicate balancing game with this process to ensure we don't accidently unleash a monster from the depths of hades onto CAP, and imo leaning into Ubers with seemingly-disparate traits like a sub-optimal (but not poor) typing, unique stat layouts and constrained set-up ability is the way to keep this CAP focused, and distinct. Very much my frontrunner candidate.

G-O and Pogre I have less to say on but I think also fulfill the concept in satisfactory ways. G-O is the premiere candiate for building the omni-utility mon, the combination of typing+ability giving it a wide swath of switch-in opportunities and utility-adjacent offensive movepool would result in a pretty focused, if not particularly unique end product I think. Poger is the definition of a monotype behemoth, maxing out on a single versatile STAB to function as either a trade-merchant along the likes of SS Melmetal, or the less interesting but reliable direction of bulky set-up.

While I don't support them as strongly as the above 3, I do also want to shout out & as I think they fit a great mold of offensive-toolbox mon, but do have some unique elements I think would be difficult to replicate without ripping them off wholesale. Also agree heavily with quziel on being a lot more one-note than people give credit for, and would rather avoid picking it lest we tunnel vision on the OTR angle.


Can't have positivity without some good 'ol negativity though, so I brought some of that as well!

As you may be able to gather from the rest of my post, not a big fan of Ubers whose success is largely defined by their giga-fuck-massive set variety; namely & variants.

If we weren't in the Tera gen I'd probably feel differently about emulating Arceus formes but as is I think we stand to become very overburdened even if we single on 1 forme in particular like Ground or Ghost. With every Arceus forme being able to start as whatever type it prefers then swap to whatever it prefers for Tera, it kinda just creates this complex web of different interpretations of whether or not any given Arceus forme is its own distinct entity or not. Trying to emulate 1 forme is perhaps more actionable for wackier ones like Ghost, but as a whole I feel like trying to use any Arceus as a target for this process is prone to getting lost in discussions on what an Arceus forme even represents.

Mainly just don't like pdon because like... c'mon guys lol. Recreating arguably the most successful uber of all time really doesn't inspire much joy, both from a concept exploration standpoint or a process execution one. Realistically the answer to questions like 'do we give it x?' or 'do we let it do y?' would almost always just be 'yes', and that's a horrifying enough thought for me to stay FAR away from Pdons fat ass.

 

[Spammernoob]

Not going into a lot of depth here, just a vibes-based prelim slate

Eternatus - This one seems overwhelmingly popular, hard not to slate.
Primal Kyogre - I think mid-speed CM breaker is a cool archetype, and Primal Kyogre is a cool mon w/ some room to explore niche options as well.
Mega Salamence - Really unique mono-attacking mon (well, we had mono-Tera Blast Fly Dnite) that I think is a bit more replicable than Zygarde-C.
(Calyrex-I, Necrozma DM) - There's been a lot of discussion around Caly-I, and opinions are a bit mixed regarding how hard it limits future stages. NDM has seen a bit of discussion, but some have expressed support for it as an OTR mon over Caly-I (though that is the tip of the iceberg with this mon). I need to think on these a bit more.
(Groudon, Arceus-Ground, Primal Groudon) - I think it's worth slating one of these flexible Grounds because they have been pretty defining in Ubers over the years. Primal Groudon is definitely the most overbearing. I'm a bit undecided on this slot though.
(Yveltal, Ho-oh) - 2 really cool mons, both of which restrict future stages a bit. They're not super comparable, but I am limited on slots so I think I can only really pick one.
Giratina-O (nepo) - I think this mon is just cool, and even though there's been not a lot of discussion on it in thread, people seem to like it on Discord so I'll use my TL powers to get it in.

Anyways, poll tomorrow at around noon -4, feel free to ping me here or on Discord re: thoughts about prelim slate. There were some mons that I passed over because they were only mentioned once, so if your favorite was not listed here, more discussion could help get it on the board.

 

[Shock3600]

Going to throw out some quick thoughts on the contested options for the prelim slate

(Calyrex-I, Necrozma DM) - There's been a lot of discussion around Caly-I, and opinions are a bit mixed regarding how hard it limits future stages. NDM has seen a bit of discussion, but some have expressed support for it as an OTR mon over Caly-I (though that is the tip of the iceberg with this mon). I need to think on these a bit more.

To me, choosing Caly-I is akin to when Throat Spray was chosen for Chugg. I don't think it's an inherently bad thing, but it does limit what we do and provides a relatively linear direction to follow. My second concnern for Caly-I is its both a potentially challenge route trying to enable OTR (there's been a lot of discussion in the discord about how Ubers is much better suited for the move, and how it inherently struggles more in CAP's meta) and a nerf yourself concept at the same time- since Caly'I's poor defensive typing has raised attention as one of its defining elements. I'm a bit worried that we're doubling down on our restrictions in a way that might make it hard to suceed at our actual goal.

At the same time, I don't think NDM has seen enough analysis to make the slate currently. I raised it as a OTR alternative, but it does a lot of other things as well and I'd really like to see an informed breakdown on what a mini NDM might represent, in its entirety.

(Groudon, Arceus-Ground, Primal Groudon) - I think it's worth slating one of these flexible Grounds because they have been pretty defining in Ubers over the years. Primal Groudon is definitely the most overbearing. I'm a bit undecided on this slot though.

The multi-role battle royale keeps coming back to us somehow. I think the clearest way to organize these three is by their level of versatility- PDon -> Arc-Ground -> Groudon. PDon has been brought up as a meta defining staple capable of running an astonishing number of sets. Arc-Ground and Groudon have both been raised with three notable target sets, but with Arc-Ground's being much more distanced than Groundons- DD/CM/Wall is much more varied than Groudon's Support Tank/Bulky Breaker/Speed Sweeper, but is also a lot more ambitious. Arc-Ground requires being good at most things a Pokemon can be good at and represents a less gradual transitiion between each set making it much harder to suceed at without being too strong, but that could be a good thing- it is a fantastic representation of an ubers diversity to try to model for our concept, if we accept the risk.

(Yveltal, Ho-oh) - 2 really cool mons, both of which restrict future stages a bit. They're not super comparable, but I am limited on slots so I think I can only really pick one.

I'd like to advocate for Yvetal here. I think the basic concept of spamming STAB utility moves is really interesting here and offers a unique playstyle not seen much in OU (Hamurott might be the closest?), gives us clear direction, but also brings us some flexability. On the flexability not specifically- I'd like to push back on the restriveness here. While people have mostly talked about Yvetal's usage of varying dark moves, Oblibion Wing fits into this idea perfectly- its another STAB utility move. While it may be impossible to pick a singular typing to replicate Yvetal's breadth of STAB utility, if we allow ourselves to combine two different types and their utility moves, I think it gives us some much need flexability to free up the process.

 

[Badly Poisoned]

As an OTR mon, I certainly think that Necrozma-DM is a far more interesting pick than Calyrex-Ice because it's not “obviously an OTR mon.”

When you dissect CIR into its parts, its 1) OTR, 2) slow Ice type, 3) bulky, 4) self-boosting. A lot of the other defining traits of CIR come from being OTR and self-boosting. And we're basically expected to take 2-3 aspects of these and make a new mon. I know I may be oversimplifying this, but I feel like trying to build around CIR kinda limits us to one of two directions:

1. Effective OTR mon, no other specification.
2. Effective OTR mon that is also a slow Ice type.

And this raises a strange conundrum of “If we only make an effective OTR mon without duplicating the Ice aspect, are we actually making a 'mini-CIR'?” and “If we make a slow Ice OTR mon, are we not just making a Glastrier with TR?”

CIR wants to Trick Room. Its Speed tier means that going into Trick Room is basically never a detriment for itself. If anything, Trick Room is just removing one of CIR's biggest drawbacks and turning it into an advantage. If you're using CIR as intended, there's very little reason not to want Trick Room up.


NDM, on the other hand, gives us a much more interesting relationship with Trick Room because it's not inherently an OTR mon.

As a primarily VGC player, I think something that doesn't really translate into singles is the possibility of TailRoom being a viable playstyle, where you can play on the fast mode, the slow mode, and the base mode. NDM is almost unique in its ability to have both fast offensive and slow offensive sets. It can function perfectly well without Trick Room, but it can also take advantage of Trick Room when the situation calls for it.

For NDM, going Trick Room is an actual tactical choice during teambuilding. Its Speed tier gives it a lot more flexibility in how it wants to approach offense. It can use DD to turn its middling Speed into a positive one, use SD or CM and work with its base Speed, while still having the option to Trick Room and play as an OTR mon. In other words, Trick Room isn't something NDM inherently needs in order to function—it is one of several ways it can choose to leverage its stats.

I think that's much more interesting for this concept. A CAP based on NDM can be loosely tied to it just based on its unique relationship with the speed stat, in that on some teams you want to boost your Speed, on some teams you want to work with your base Speed, and on other teams you want to flip the Speed order entirely with Trick Room. And in the CAP process, we can then decided if we want to implement other parallels like a similar typing, bulk or ability.

That's a lot more nuanced than CIR, where being slow naturally pushes it towards Trick Room. CIR is a Pokémon that wants Trick Room; NDM is a Pokémon that can choose Trick Room.

 

[traceyscetchit]

That's a lot more nuanced than CIR, where being slow naturally pushes it towards Trick Room. CIR is a Pokémon that wants Trick Room; NDM is a Pokémon that can choose Trick Room.

In CAP, choosing trick room is fundamentally impossible. Let's quickly go through all the hoops and hurdles a trick room mon has to pass through in a modern gen:

• Protect, which is more prevalent in cap than ou (see , , , and ), can be alternated and cuts trick room's duration in half.
• Substitute is protect but worse.
• Sacking pokemon kills one turn of trick room.
• Predictive switches can decrease the trick room counter by one turn; see 's 50/50's between a ghost type and a flying type.
• Stupidly fat mons with reliable recovery can stall away the trick room.
• Phazing denies trick room to begin with.
• Extremely slow pokemon, like hatterenne, are problematic unless we have shuckle speed.
• Priority completely invalidates the whole point of trick room, and CAP is infested with priority.
• Trick room is ONLY used for speed control; it's similar to agility which has hardly any usage. This means you still have to cram boosting and may run out of moveslots.
• Even in ideal conditions, you still only get a 4 turn long sweep.

Now let's look at trick room's advantages over other speed control options:

• If you die the room might still be there for a turn or so for your teammates.
• You outspeed scarf pokemon.
• 

Trick room is fundamentally terrible. I'm advocating for calyrex-ice, the "obvious" path forwards, because it's the ONLY way forwards with offensive trick room. If you give CAP 39 a trick room mode and even the slightest inkling of another playstyle, it will take the inkling any day of the week. Trick room is just that bad. CAP 39 cannot be allowed a choice. Offensive trick room is trying to jam an ubers' playsyle onto a CAPmon in a tier where it doesn't fit, and that feels very pro-concept to me. It may be heavy-handed, but in this case, circling around both trick room and another option is bound to lead to failure on the trick room build.
If people are of the opinion that offensive trick room just can't work in CAP, I understand, but thinking that we can fit an offensive trick room build and anything else onto the same pokemon is just biting off more than a cap can physically chew.

I would like to caveat all of this by saying that necrozma-dusk mane is still a decent pick, but focusing on offensive trick room with it is a mistake.

 

[Gekokeso]

Thoughts on the initial slate:

Eternatus - This one seems overwhelmingly popular, hard not to slate.

No issues from me here, very interesting mon to try and explore.

Primal Kyogre - I think mid-speed CM breaker is a cool archetype, and Primal Kyogre is a cool mon w/ some room to explore niche options as well.

Originally against kyogre cause selfish weather setter has been explored by better mons including its base form but I can see the argument for a bulky cm breaker focused on bruteforcing the opposing teams. Fair option to explore.

Mega Salamence - Really unique mono-attacking mon (well, we had mono-Tera Blast Fly Dnite) that I think is a bit more replicable than Zygarde-C.

Its alright. Mono-attacking mon has been replicated to many extents in multiple metas across ou but not to the point that mence had with its different support options for the tier, i can see the argument.

(Calyrex-I, Necrozma DM) - There's been a lot of discussion around Caly-I, and opinions are a bit mixed regarding how hard it limits future stages. NDM has seen a bit of discussion, but some have expressed support for it as an OTR mon over Caly-I (though that is the tip of the iceberg with this mon). I need to think on these a bit more.

Once again here to defend calyrex-Ice's honor. We have seen issues about straightforwards concepts in the part and once again I still don't think that's enough of an issue to make such a big fuss about. And its not even that hard to acomplish recreating its playstyle while also making something unique, people are once again just reducing this mon to a trick room bot. You can also focus on its bulk, how it affect the Ubers speed game, the bad typing not being a hinderance rather than trying to just do all of these at once and go for a straightforward manner, as this is quite literally one of the more unique mons in any metagame once you get past the auto OTR agenda. In fact, im actually gonna argue that Caly-Ice AND Necrozma Dusk-Mane should make the slate.

Dusk-Mane is a entirely different beast from Caly-ice, but that doesn't mean that they really occupy the same niche. People are currently reducing dusk-mane as a "superior" OTR mon that can do other stuff but that never really was its niche. Dusk-Mane unique playstyle more or less could be summed up as a defensive mon who's main way of providing defensive utility is but being bulky enough to switch in to attacks and then try multiple avenues for setup in order to force out the opposing mon, not limited to tr but also with DD or CM. This is an entirely different niche than the one caly Ice occupies.

(Groudon, Arceus-Ground, Primal Groudon) - I think it's worth slating one of these flexible Grounds because they have been pretty defining in Ubers over the years. Primal Groudon is definitely the most overbearing. I'm a bit undecided on this slot though.

Recreating Primal Groudon doesn't feel like it will lead to a fun mon if we don't want to break OU in half, as there so much going on with it that any attempts to recreate all it can do will probably have us make something that is too restrained to be a fun as Pdon is or be too much for the tier. I like both Arceus-Groud and Groudon since they are both very interesting ground types with a mutlitude of niches and sets.

(Yveltal, Ho-oh) - 2 really cool mons, both of which restrict future stages a bit. They're not super comparable, but I am limited on slots so I think I can only really pick one.

I'd personally kick out both of these mons from the slate to make space for either caly-ice or Dusk mane but that is just me. Ho-Oh is just the best regenerator user ever, regen has been used in ou to death and we really don't need another one, even offensive users have been explored like torn-t and Astrolotl. Yveltal just hasn't seen much discussion to justify it over something like Mega Mence as its typing was already explored by Obliteryx last concept and attempts to recreate is niche are probably not gonna be as fun as the other options in the slate. Yes we do not have to keep its typing 1:1 and yes repeating typings two concepts in a row is not a negative thing, but the dark typing is so integral to Yveltal's niche as a mixed attacker than trying to make another dark type in a meta that is currently fillex with very good users already doesn't feel that interesting to explore at the moment.

Giratina-O (nepo) - I think this mon is just cool, and even though there's been not a lot of discussion on it in thread, people seem to like it on Discord so I'll use my TL powers to get it in.

Honestly yeah sure keep it in. Bulky Ghost with very unique defensive profile is just a pretty fun niche to explore at all.

My slate from most wanted to okay in having in would be:
- Eternatus
- Giratina-Origin
- Calyrex-Ice
- Either Groudon or Arceus Ground
- Primal Kyogre
- Necrozma-Dusk Mane
- Mega Salamence

 

[Zetalz]

(Calyrex-I, Necrozma DM)

Caly-Ice and Necrozma DM shouldn't be head-to-head on the slate imo. Their niches are very different, as DM has a much broader range and flexibility of roles it fulfills on any given team. I already mentioned disliking Caly-I in my last post but I didn't speak on Dusk Mane; I think it's only okay for our purposes here. It teeters on the same edge that Pdon lurks in with just an obscene amount of set variety, but in practice it's more like Gliscor: Ubers edition, a consistent defensive tool that provides late-game offensive pressure.

Frankly Caly-I just feels confused to me with what people actually want out of it as a target. Is having a slightly above shit-tier typing integral to it's execution or not? Is OTR integral to it's execution? Is OTR even good on it? Does it even have a viable niche beyond OTR? Everyone seems to have different answers to these questions, and that alone is what makes me apprehensive about emulating it. If the only thing people can agree on is that it's mega-tanky, that doesn't leave very much left to go on. That kind of unfocused direction hasn't appealed to me in past concepts, and it doesn't appeal to me here. I don't think every argument in favor of Caly-I is necessarily incorrect, but the wide breadth of different ways of interpreting what is and isn't integral to it's identity is a major turn-off for me.

With that said I don't think I'd want either one of these mons on the slate, but if forced to choose one I'd pick Dusk Mane, as it at least has a clearer picture of what it is, even if it's kind of an archetypical glue mon.

Yveltal just hasn't seen much discussion to justify it over something like Mega Mence as its typing was already explored by Obliteryx last concept and attempts to recreate is niche are probably not gonna be as fun as the other options in the slate.

Also would like to push back on this. The concept in no way requires us to keep any typing from the emulated uber, but even if we did come to the conclusion that CAP 38 would want to be either of Dark or Flying to fulfill this concept... so what? The unwillingness to even entertain repeat or consecutive typings is a very unhealthy cultural mindset in CAP and shouldn't have any bearing on how we conduct ourselves. I think we're very capable of emulating Yveltal without the use of either of those typings, but if one of them happens to fit the build we want perfectly, then we shouldn't have qualms about using it. I don't think we need to hamstring ourselves by geting hung up about using a half-similar typing to the emulated uber.

All that to say I firmly support including Yveltal on the slate. An offensive toolbox that utilized almost entirely STAB options I think is pretty cool. I still think Ho-oh is cool too but I'm willing to let it wallow on the streets and kick rocks since people are tired of Regen pivots.

(Groudon, Arceus-Ground, Primal Groudon)

I poo-poo'd on Arceus forms and Pdon in my previous post but didn't mention regular Groudon. I think OG Groudon is simply the only 'flexible ground' we can realistically explore as a target here. It's set variance has a lot more overlap than Arceus, and it doesn't involve having to open the can of worms I outlined with regards to analyzing individual Arceus formes. Pdon is obviously way too much to try and pack into a single, OU-tier package, but base Groudon is far more actionable, so I would push for its inclusion in the dirt-boy slot.

 

[SHSP]

Not going into a lot of depth here, just a vibes-based prelim slate

Eternatus - This one seems overwhelmingly popular, hard not to slate.
Primal Kyogre - I think mid-speed CM breaker is a cool archetype, and Primal Kyogre is a cool mon w/ some room to explore niche options as well.
Mega Salamence - Really unique mono-attacking mon (well, we had mono-Tera Blast Fly Dnite) that I think is a bit more replicable than Zygarde-C.
(Calyrex-I, Necrozma DM) - There's been a lot of discussion around Caly-I, and opinions are a bit mixed regarding how hard it limits future stages. NDM has seen a bit of discussion, but some have expressed support for it as an OTR mon over Caly-I (though that is the tip of the iceberg with this mon). I need to think on these a bit more.
(Groudon, Arceus-Ground, Primal Groudon) - I think it's worth slating one of these flexible Grounds because they have been pretty defining in Ubers over the years. Primal Groudon is definitely the most overbearing. I'm a bit undecided on this slot though.
(Yveltal, Ho-oh) - 2 really cool mons, both of which restrict future stages a bit. They're not super comparable, but I am limited on slots so I think I can only really pick one.
Giratina-O (nepo) - I think this mon is just cool, and even though there's been not a lot of discussion on it in thread, people seem to like it on Discord so I'll use my TL powers to get it in.

Anyways, poll tomorrow at around noon -4, feel free to ping me here or on Discord re: thoughts about prelim slate. There were some mons that I passed over because they were only mentioned once, so if your favorite was not listed here, more discussion could help get it on the board.

echoing what Zetalz said about NDM and Caly-I. I'm not the biggest NDM fan for this, I think part of the ideal there of versatilty/multiple options can be done better with different options. Caly-I i think is genuinely cool, but the consensus of just "OTR mon" feels like it misses the mark. What Zeta said about how the waters feel very muddied w/it make me feel pretty awkward about it, even tho I do think its pretty cool as an overall concept to emulate.

Big fan of MMence, POgre, Yveltal, Etern personally. Dex's post covers a lot of what I'd say about Etern and the mon's wicked cool for doing all that sorta stuff. MMence I think would be a trickier route to emulate but a really cool one that leaves us with direction but a good amount of flexibility. Yveltal is a little bit of a bias pick on my end (i think the mon's just insanely cool), but I def agree that we aren't locked into that specific typing to get mileage out of the concept. Offensive toolboxes that function in that way are interesting- I think that extends to Gira O as well, though I'm not as familiar. POgre I think is wild that it works so well for us, but operates in an interesting space and I agree with a lot of the discussion about it that Zeta and Quz brought up earlier.

 

[Sqookblooks]

Not going into a lot of depth here, just a vibes-based prelim slate

Mega Salamence - Really unique mono-attacking mon (well, we had mono-Tera Blast Fly Dnite) that I think is a bit more replicable than Zygarde-C.

Going to reply to this since I was the guy who nommed Zyg-C and wants to put it back in the convo!

I genuinely don't think Zygarde-C and Mega Mence are comparable at all tbh. I get that the comparison is that they are both dragon dancers (well techncially Zyg-C is actually also a Coil bot but Imma get to that later) and they both run one coverage, but after that, the comparison is kinda nil. In practice the two are VERY VERY different. Zygarde-C is way tankier, way slower, regularly runs utility moves to enable its own sweep (i.e Glare, Toxic etc), has two modes of setup in Coil and Dragon Dance. Thousand Arrows is amazing but a 95 BP move from 100 Attack isn't going to threaten out a ton of mons so Zyg-C in practice gets its setup differently from Mence. Overall, it fills a very different type of setup niche that Megamence doesn't really replicate.

To be frank, I don't really get the hype behind Mega Mence. I think it's a pretty boring choice. A fast, powerful dragon dancer with a nuclear stab and recovery. That's not exactly breaking new ground tbh. Yes, I know that it toys with Defog and Refresh on occasion (and also Earthquake but I guess we don't talk about that), but let's be real, it's identity has always been a fast uber-powerful dragon dance attacker. If we recreated Mence, we'd in practice just make a fast, powerful dragon dancer in CAP. I don't think the fact that Mence has one stab is really unique enough to justify copying it for the rest of the process because we know the only things we really need to accomplish are the following:

A) Pick a good mono STAB and add Dragon Dance B) Make it fast C) Make it strong. I don't at all agree with the take that it would be tricky to emulate.

If we tried to spice it up by giving it some other form of utility like Thunder Wave or Wisp, we'd basically be cheating the concept because that's not what Mence's niche is Ubers is and then we're not really making a mini Mence. It also doesn't help that Dragonite has historically done similar stuff to Mence (during the SubDD Fly Era + the Fly Tera Blast Era), and if we want to go even further back, Mega Altaria has also done something similar things.

Zygarde, on the other hand, is way more unique. There hasn't really been a lot of historical analogues to what Zyg does in Ubers in OU. Even though we know the blueprint is to A) make it bulky as hell and B) give it a good Mono Stab that still leaves a lot of room to explore its self-servicing utility, it's dual defensive and offensive setup, the distinction between its early game and end game presence etc etc.

Tbh I think the strongest Ubers candidates on the slate are the ones who have a distinct identity that isn't super easy to recreate in OU. That's why Etern is by far the favorite in this thread and in discussions. It's why people like Calyrex-Ice. It's why POgre and Yveltal are picking up steam. It's why I think Zyg-C should be on the slate too. Tbh I'd rather have Mewtwo or Marshadow than Mence on the slate if ZygC can't be on it either.

Apologies for the Mence believers for all the slander. I just don't think it should be slated over my boy ZygC. Anyways, more ZygC agenda posting soon to come (if I get around to it)


EDIT: Quick nomination! I think Mewtwo is a really interesting mon that's being neglected in the discussion so far, and I think we should give it some respect. The only issue has been a lack of direction for Mewtwo so I figured I would sub in Mega Mewtwo Y as an interesting mon to recreate in Ubers. In essence, Mega Mewtwo Y is defined by a couple of interesting factors that differentiates it from a lot of the Uber mons and also a lot of current OU mons

Obviously it's very powerful and fast-- No doubt about it. But it also has a really awkward offensive typing-- Psychic is not very good in the modern gens it is in, especially with NDM running around. So it has to rely on its admittedly very colorful coverage to help it pick up the KOes it needs as a wallbreaker. But it also suffers from a form of 4MSS. You can't choose to cover every single Pokemon in Ubers because of how bad the main STAB is. You either have to drop hitting an important Pokemon or have to give up useful moves like Taunt or Calm Mind. You also have negative bulk and a terrible defensive typing. This makes Mega Mewtwo Y an awkward mon to fit in Ubers teams despite its apparent strengths. Recreating Mega Mewtwo Y would have to focus on recreating the historical awkwardness and raw strength that it and normal Mewtwo often have in modern Gens. Despite the weaknesses, bot have been good at various points with MMY being a legitimate threat in SM Ubers.

The most apparent comparison to me is probably Mega Alakzam which makes sense because both are fast, frail, special attackers with the same offensive typing. Other than that, there is a lot of way a MMY route could go, especially if elect to forego Psychic entirely and look at making another awkward but powerful breaker of a different type.