CAP 38 - Part 3 - Typing Discussion

[Spammernoob]

CAP 38 So Far

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It's time to discuss one of the most important decisions for CAP 38--its type(s)! Please follow AzothBend's posts carefully and DO NOT immediately propose type combinations until he says so.

 

[AzothBend]

Hello, and welcome to the Typing stage for CAP38. After a rigorous Concept Assessment, I hope you're all excited to jump in. While the previous stage provided us with some general direction for our Eternatus Jr. we have a lot of unknowns still to figure out. Let's start with some general questions to get a feel for where this stage may lead. I anticipate STAB + coverage combinations to be a big part of this stage, but I'd like to hold off discussing any specific combinations for now.

As always, the important bits are in bold, but please consider the entire text of the question.

• Poison-typing is fairly unique in the Ubers metagame, with the only legendary/mythical Poison-type Pokemon being Eternatus and Arceus-Poison. Is it important that CAP38 occupy a similarly rare or niche typing in the CAP OU metagame?
• Certain moves like Knock Off or Toxic are far less common in Ubers than other metagames. This allows for some Pokemon with notable type weaknesses to nonetheless find success. In translating an Uber to the CAP OU metagame what concessions or adapatations need to be made to account for these differences? Is a weakness to hazards, for example, more of a liability in CAP OU?
• In Concept Assessment, it was decided that CAP38 should be resilient to a relevant form of passive damage. What relevant forms of passive damage can be addressed by typing alone?
• Eternatus' Dragon STAB allows mostly strong neutral hits into the Ubers metagame, while it's Poison STAB and Fire-type coverage target specific Dragon resistances. Should CAP38 similarly aim for strong neutral STAB hits with few resistances? Or should it aim for more SE STAB hits?
• On that same note, if CAP38 aims for 'perfect' 3-move coverage, how important is having multiple STABs? And how should they complement one another?

 

[Feldirion]

Is it important that CAP38 occupy a similarly rare or niche typing in the CAP OU metagame?

I don't think there's exactly any merit to a 'rare' typing over a functional one. Eternatus holds a unique typing in a much smaller meta. CAP, however, has a lot more mons. A niche typing would be nice, but I don't see it being very important.

What relevant forms of passive damage can be addressed by typing alone?

Poison or Steel typing stifles Toxic from most defensive mons. Fire typing prevents burn chip... and Flying helps with hazards? There are other options, like Ground/Steel/Rock for Sandstorm, but I've only seen Sandstorm on in CAP and it would be a stretch to call it 'relevant'. 's Salt Cure is another, but it can only be blunted by avoiding Steel or Water typing, not negated.

Should CAP38 similarly aim for strong neutral STAB hits with few resistances? How important is having multiple STABs? And how should they complement one another?

Merging these into one question.

We're going to be departing from on many levels, but I think this is one place that we should steer closer to the blueprint. A few people mentioned in concept assessment that Eternatus 'never feels like a wallbreaker' or 'needs Meteor Beam for set-up', and wide SE STAB detracts from that feeling. If it's hitting most things for 2.x damage, it's less reliant on the rest of it's kit.

Imo, one strong neutral STAB, and the extra coverage to hit it's resistances, is a very pro-concept direction. Whether it needs a dual STAB would depend which one we select first: types like Ghost, for instance, can cover all their resistances in one coverage package (in this case, Fighting.) But a poor offensive type like Poison is stifled by Steel, Rock, Ground, Ghost and opposing Poisons, and would likely desire a secondary STAB to help cover them all.
Summary.
.I do not see any benefit for a niche or rare typing as opposed to a more common, but also useful, one.
.Toxic, burns, Spikes and Sandstorm can all be handled by typing alone. There may be other passive damage sources I've overlooked.
.I believe strong neutral STAB is a much better choice then wide SE STABS.

 

[IGotEaten]

In Concept Assessment, it was decided that CAP38 should be resilient to a relevant form of passive damage. What relevant forms of passive damage can be addressed by typing alone?

Well, let's start with the elephant in the room, Toxic. It seems like everyone is leaning in that direction (from what I saw in CA2), and I'm not a fan. CAP has plenty of resistance options to Toxic () and I'm not a fan. I would propose we try to counter Spikes. Flying hard-walls Spikes, and feels like an underrepresented type in CAP. I am aware our last CAP was also Flying, but Flying is a good type, to be fair.

 

[viol and bass]

Poison-typing is fairly unique in the Ubers metagame, with the only legendary/mythical Poison-type Pokemon being Eternatus and Arceus-Poison. Is it important that CAP38 occupy a similarly rare or niche typing in the CAP OU metagame?

In my opinion, no. This is largely a symptom of a heavily centralized metagame. We actually have a pretty balanced distribution of types in the meta (relative to how balanced the types themselves are). This is just going through B rank in the viability rankings (not B-):

Distribution of types

Normal 1
Fire 7
Water 7
Electric 2
Grass 3
Ice 1
Fighting 4
Poison 6
Ground 5
Flying 6
Psychic 3
Bug 2
Rock 2
Ghost 6
Dragon 7
Dark 4
Steel 7
Fairy 5

Did this by hand so there may be human error.

We do have some types with low representation like Ice and Normal, but I think specifically trying to make one of these rarer typings work solely because it's rare would be limiting. It can be mentioned as a small bonus if a typing has a rare component to it, but we shouldn't treat it as a requirement.

Certain moves like Knock Off or Toxic are far less common in Ubers than other metagames. This allows for some Pokemon with notable type weaknesses to nonetheless find success. In translating an Uber to the CAP OU metagame what concessions or adapatations need to be made to account for these differences? Is a weakness to hazards, for example, more of a liability in CAP OU?

I wasn't super tapped in for CA so I'll leave the first part to other people.

I'm ambivalent about hazard weakness. It might be a bit rough here just because we're trying to replicate a decent range of sets, and some of those sets may want to run something other than boots. Etern itself has 5 sets listed on the SV Ubers dex and every single one runs a different item. Replicating that (even to a lesser degree) with a hazard weakness is hard.

We have however been talking about power budget and the fact that this mon is going to be receiving a lot of tools and the means to use them. Potentially a hazard weakness could be a balancing component. Something like Kyurem might show the path for this. I think my main issue with this is that as Xeggutor puts it here, Eternatus never feels like a wallbreaker, and when you're hazard weak and potentially not running boots (in my head I'm using Meteor Beam as an analogue for this), you want to exert a lot of pressure when you're on the field. I think there's probably a path there though.

In Concept Assessment, it was decided that CAP38 should be resilient to a relevant form of passive damage. What relevant forms of passive damage can be addressed by typing alone?

Burn: Fire
Sandstorm: Rock/Steel/Ground
Poison: Poison/Steel
Leech Seed: Grass
Spikes/(Tspikes): Flying
Stealth Rock: Fighting/Steel/Ground

I think that's kind of it unless I'm forgetting something. There are a couple other really niche type-based passive damage interactions but they're not really worth mentioning.

Among these, hazards and poison and the most relevant for sure. Burn immunity is definitely relevant but not primarily for "passive damage" reasons (at least since burn damage was nerfed)

Eternatus' Dragon STAB allows mostly strong neutral hits into the Ubers metagame, while it's Poison STAB and Fire-type coverage target specific Dragon resistances. Should CAP38 similarly aim for strong neutral STAB hits with few resistances? Or should it aim for more SE STAB hits?

Don't have a strong opinion on this. Having a "broadly neutral" STAB is a fine thing to try for I guess, I have to think more about whether that's overly limiting.

On that same note, if CAP38 aims for 'perfect' 3-move coverage, how important is having multiple STABs? And how should they complement one another?

It feels pretty important to me if we're trying to recreate the Etern vibe. I like the idea of one STAB hitting a resist to the other STAB but still leaving a gap in coverage.

 

[Spammernoob]

Quick TL post

• In Concept Assessment, it was decided that CAP38 should be resilient to a relevant form of passive damage. What relevant forms of passive damage can be addressed by typing alone?

I think including Paralysis in this category, even if it isn't explicitly damage, is reasonable.
That being said, the other concerns should be at the forefront in this stage, as this aspect can be addressed in Ability stage if needed.

 

[Amamama]

Poison-typing is fairly unique in the Ubers metagame, with the only legendary/mythical Poison-type Pokemon being Eternatus and Arceus-Poison. Is it important that CAP38 occupy a similarly rare or niche typing in the CAP OU metagame?

I don’t think so. CAP is much more crowded and most typings exist in some ways. Those that are more rare also are more likely to just not be great.
Also the poison type in isolation isn’t really doing much for etern. It’s a very mixed bag and the two main gains it has from it is resisting Koraidons fire and fighting coverage and being immune to toxic, while it now suffers from being ground and psychic weak in a meta with very dominant ground and psychic mons.

Certain moves like Knock Off or Toxic are far less common in Ubers than other metagames. This allows for some Pokemon with notable type weaknesses to nonetheless find success. In translating an Uber to the CAP OU metagame what concessions or adapatations need to be made to account for these differences? Is a weakness to hazards, for example, more of a liability in CAP OU?

Etern itself isn’t particularly weak to either but it is somewhat resilient to passive damage thanks to its poison immunity.
CAP on the other hand has pretty good status absorption already and is littered with hazards. So focusing on other forms of resilience to passive damage than being immune to poison seems nice. Given that Etern wants to perform as tank or even wall being resilient to entry hazards seems the easiest way to do so, but other options that provide it a way to stay healthy against status moves can also be used (Quz brought up para immunity for example).

In Concept Assessment, it was decided that CAP38 should be resilient to a relevant form of passive damage. What relevant forms of passive damage can be addressed by typing alone?

except for trapping and salt cure damage pretty much any form of passive damage can be shit off with the the right typing. Though obviously some are more relevant.
Immunity to spikes can be granted by flying type while, rocks damage can be weakened by steel, fighting and ground. Steel also shields against poison (alongside poison) and sand (alongside rock and ground) and grass shields against leech seed, while fire shields against burn.
Realistically the most relevant are rocks, spikes and poison so looking for types that are solid against some of these is good.
That said all of these can also be dealt with through abilities so idt me need to resilience-max during typing.

Eternatus' Dragon STAB allows mostly strong neutral hits into the Ubers metagame, while it's Poison STAB and Fire-type coverage target specific Dragon resistances. Should CAP38 similarly aim for strong neutral STAB hits with few resistances? Or should it aim for more SE STAB hits?

On that same note, if CAP38 aims for 'perfect' 3-move coverage, how important is having multiple STABs? And how should they complement one another?

Emulating the way STABs plus coverage impact Eternatus Moveset should be our biggest concern during this stage.
I don’t think we need a single broadly neutral attacking type, which basically would constrain us to three viable types. Instead the STAB COMBINATION should have broad neutral coverage with a notable hole that can be fixed with a single coverage typing.
That said emulating Eternatus coverage interaction benefits from the STAB moves not being broadly super effective in the meta.
STAB coverage that hits too much Super effectively on its own might result in sets converging too easily on 2 attacks plus recovery plus utility or set up.
So the ideal Typing combination threatens good damage into a lot of mons and forces more targeted answers while at the same time not being SE into too many targets so it forces a coverage move on the set.
Achieving this with a Mono type might be a bit harder but idt mono types are entirely disqualified, as long as a realistic three move coverage to hit the meta exists. Concerns of not having enough power can be met with ability or movepool later, although this potentially reduces flexibility down the line.

„types like Ghost, for instance, can cover all their resistances in one coverage package (in this case, Fighting.)“

I’d argue that Mono Ghost would have to make use of other coverage than fighting to emulate Eternatus as ghost fighting would very likely just converge on using two moves plus two flex slots on all sets. (Potentially Fairy for Darks and Ground to hit the most relevant normal type.)

 

[Pipotchi]

• On that same note, if CAP38 aims for 'perfect' 3-move coverage, how important is having multiple STABs? And how should they complement one another?

I don't think there always has to be multiple STABs used on the set, since Eternatus seems to run at least half of its sets with only 1 STAB and one or two coverage moves. But it should be viable (and often preferable?) to run both, and the mon should always run multiple attacks. Something like a lightning fast Ghost seems like a bad route for us since that can easily go a specs route spamming a single move which hits very neutrally by itself, and stuff like Flying, Fairy, Ground or Water can also be quality monoattacking options on defensive sets paired with the right kit (worth avoiding).

I'd also perhaps consider making sure we get STAB moves that have the same safe feeling as Sludge Bomb and especially Dynamax Cannon. They're all very reliable (both no overwhelming positive roll or chance for failure) turn after turn and high BP, something not all typings can offer. A Flare Blitzer, Fire Blaster (as the main move) or Close Combat STAB user just wont feel right here imo- there's no aiming involved, no negative drawbacks or grabbing free turns with lucky rolls, and although poison is nice and leads to progress, it doesnt steal turns like a move like Dark Pulse or Discharge does. Eternatus doesn't hit and run like cowardly Dragapult either, and there's no loss to his offensive pressure over time, like with Draco Meteor users or Knock Off.
Its actually a pretty "honest" 4 moves in my opinion and its one of the things that I liked the most when using Eternatus.

 

[Badly Poisoned]

Gonna build off my earlier post in the CA2 thread, and these 2 posts that I really like.

...
Emulating the way STABs plus coverage impact Eternatus Moveset should be our biggest concern during this stage.
I don’t think we need a single broadly neutral attacking type, which basically would constrain us to three viable types. Instead the STAB COMBINATION should have broad neutral coverage with a notable hole that can be fixed with a single coverage typing.
...

I think STAB with broad neutral coverage and a notable hole is the framework that we should be looking at when considering typing. However, I don’t think we necessarily need to force Minitatus to use both STABs offensively to mirror Eternatus. While Poison is technically a STAB for Eternatus, it functionally behaves more like a combination of a coverage and defensive typing. Because of that, I don’t think “dual STAB + coverage” is necessarily the important part to reproduce.

I don't think there always has to be multiple STABs used on the set, since Eternatus seems to run at least half of its sets with only 1 STAB and one or two coverage moves. But it should be viable (and often preferable?) to run both, and the mon should always run multiple attacks. Something like a lightning fast Ghost seems like a bad route for us since that can easily go a specs route spamming a single move which hits very neutrally by itself, and stuff like Flying, Fairy, Ground or Water can also be quality monoattacking options on defensive sets paired with the right kit (worth avoiding).

I agree with this. If a mono-STAB gives us the necessary neutral coverage while leaving meaningful holes that can be patched by two non-STAB coverage moves, I think it could work as well. However, the central typing cannot be so good neutrally that it can function as a mono-attacking type. This also circles back to the previous point: the hole needs to be notable. And ironically, this can make working with a mono-STAB potentially harder than working with dual STABs, since with a mono-STAB, we actually need to find two notable holes for the other two moves to patch.

...
I'd also perhaps consider making sure we get STAB moves that have the same safe feeling as Sludge Bomb and especially Dynamax Cannon. They're all very reliable (both no overwhelming positive roll or chance for failure) turn after turn and high BP, something not all typings can offer. A Flare Blitzer, Fire Blaster (as the main move) or Close Combat STAB user just wont feel right here imo- there's no aiming involved, no negative drawbacks or grabbing free turns with lucky rolls
...
Its actually a pretty "honest" 4 moves in my opinion and its one of the things that I liked the most when using Eternatus.

I think, this is the most important post in this thread. I think it is very important to be mindful of how the moves themselves generate pressure. Eternatus feels very different from something like Naganadel, despite sharing a lot of the same Poison / Fire / Dragon tools. Draco Meteor and Nasty Plot give Naganadel a much more explosive way of generating pressure, whereas Eternatus is largely just making progress by repeatedly clicking reliable attacks.

And this is where I want to draw another line: because Naganadel uses high-risk, high-reward moves like Draco Meteor and Fire Blast, Sludge Wave becomes the “reliable” move in turn. This changes the relationship between the reliable neutral move and the moves used to patch its holes, and I think it is something we should be conscious of when evaluating our typings.

I’m bringing this up now because I think we need to make sure our central typings does, in fact, contain low-risk, medium-reward moves to fit the third typing around, otherwise we may end up with a structurally sound neutral coverage on paper while producing a fundamentally different offensive structure simply because the necessary reliable moves do not exist.

Edit:
As a quick addendum, the order of which move is STAB and which isn’t matters. Eternatus uses Poison/Dragon/Fire because Dragon is STAB. If it were Poison/Fire it would never choose Dragon to round off its coverage.

 

[IGotEaten]

Quick TL post

I think including Paralysis in this category, even if it isn't explicitly damage, is reasonable.
That being said, the other concerns should be at the forefront in this stage, as this aspect can be addressed in Ability stage if needed.

Actually, I 100% agree here. Paralysis blocking would very well get the point across, and I think this is a new personal favorite. Also, I like how Electric could contribute to our 3-type coverage core, with its relatively high amount of neutral hits.

 

[cat111ca]

I agree with the sentiment that we need neutrality with a hole that can be patched up by coverage & that we need hazard resilience. I've got a specific typing in mind but I'll keep that for later

 

[Guingil]

Poison-typing is fairly unique in the Ubers metagame, with the only legendary/mythical Poison-type Pokemon being Eternatus and Arceus-Poison. Is it important that CAP38 occupy a similarly rare or niche typing in the CAP OU metagame?

I disagree that this is unimportant; however, I would relate it more to a unique typing helping define a "niche" for a Pokemon to afford it a spot on the team. Being a Poison-type in a metagame that rewards, and is thus infested with, Toxic and Toxic Spikes is an advantage. I think if we're going for Pokemon that can be versatile in a less centralized meta like OU/CAP, the niche needs to be all that more defined and less crowded for it to work. Ground, for example, has competition in Gliscor and Great Tusk, which themselves can flex into a variety of sets, and hazard-game contributing tanks like Equilibra and Ting-Lu, so standing out as a viable alternative to these Pokemon is a tough ask. The best bulky Waters have pushed out other ones out of OU, and so on.

No way is it impossible to carve out a niche for those types, but we have the additional requirement of some flexibility on our sets. We are nudged toward lacking too much utility, according to CA2. We also want to run "honest" moves, as Piptochi frames it, although I think there is scope for stuff like Mystical Fire and Draco Meteor + Eject Pack as tech options, which Eternatus has run. Nevertheless, a combination of multiple demands pulling us in many directions puts some pressure onto typing to pull its weight, offensively or defensively. For example, I believe Kyurem’s niche of “viable Ice-type” (LOL), while facilitated by a kinda overwhelming stat spread, affords it variety because nobody else is occupying that niche. Heavy-Duty Boots is hardly ever seen on it despite it being weak to Stealth Rock, in favor of stuff like Never-Melt Ice, Loaded Dice, Assault Vest, Leftovers SubTect, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf… and maybe a few more that I might have missed. Last month's OU 1695+ usage actually, for reference:

| Assault Vest 25.725%
| Choice Specs 21.802%
| Leftovers 16.272%
| Loaded Dice 15.454%
| Choice Scarf 11.680%
| Heavy-Duty Boots 4.287%
| Other 4.780

I think Eternatus’ flexibility is similarly defined by its Poison typing, albeit more defensively. This idea of a typing-based niche also affects the rest of the questions. Some types lack a good reliable STAB user, some others work really well into meta tools like Paralysis or passive damage, and some are exceptionally hazard resistant, and so on. So having something meaningfully unique gives us a leg up is my take here.

 

[Brigtel]

• In Concept Assessment, it was decided that CAP38 should be resilient to a relevant form of passive damage. What relevant forms of passive damage can be addressed by typing alone?

I think it would be a good idea to divide the sources of passive damage that typing can address by relevance, so we know what to focus on

Highly Relevant	Burn, Poison
Somewhat Relevant	Stealth Rocks, Spikes, Paralysis
Irrelevant	Sandstorm, Leech Seed

Burn is probably the most common status in CAP, with many CAP-specific spreaders and a few OU ones as well being frequently seen in tournament play to make progress, in large part through passive damage. 6% may not sound like much but it actually matters a lot over the course of a singles game. Being immune to it would be a very relevant boon. Toxic/Poison, while less common, is harder to deal with and generally more dangerous, and still relatively common in CAP, its very clear how valuable it is. This is especially true if we intend to have recovery.

Hazards are somewhat less relevant, mostly because heavy duty boots does so much of the job that trying to address it through typing alone would feel a bit forced, and whatever mitigation a type alone brings is not enormously impactful. Still useful though, especially for rocks. If we are instead talking about avoiding a weakness to rocks however, I think that is very relevant to eternatus-mini, especially if we wish to have item and set flexibility as well as decent switch in opportunities like our Uber counterpart.
Addressing Spikes through typing feels a bit foolish, as the only way to do that is through the flying type, which still has to face rocks which are almost always paired with the spikes. Its not useless to try and be immune to spikes, but we're really just trying to be immune to one very specific form of passive damage without being much better in most of the in-game situation where you would be taking such damage. Kinda like if in gen7 we were saying we're gonna make a flying type that beats electric types because its also ground type.

Sandstorm and Leech Seed should be ignored, typings should not get any merit for making us immune to them.

 

[Gekokeso]

Poison-typing is fairly unique in the Ubers metagame, with the only legendary/mythical Poison-type Pokemon being Eternatus and Arceus-Poison. Is it important that CAP38 occupy a similarly rare or niche typing in the CAP OU metagame?

Not really, and its pretty obvious why: Ubers is somewhat similar to the lower tiers (and thus is occassionally refered as such) in that they tend to have a significant shortage of certain kinds of mons. In ubers the propensity for strong legendaries with offensive typings causes a slight vaccum of typings like steel or poison needed to keep the metagame in check. OU's lesser power level means that said offensive options are way more manageable and there's a significant amount of more defensive options. Whereas steels and poisons are somewhat rarer in Ubers they are completely infested in the metagame. That being said, having the pokémon in question have a stab or two that isn't being used by that many pokémon in the current metagame is indeed a pretty valid route to take.

Certain moves like Knock Off or Toxic are far less common in Ubers than other metagames. This allows for some Pokemon with notable type weaknesses to nonetheless find success. In translating an Uber to the CAP OU metagame what concessions or adapatations need to be made to account for these differences? Is a weakness to hazards, for example, more of a liability in CAP OU?

Mentioned it during the previous concept assessment but toxic is a significantly lower priority in a metagame already infested with multiple poison types, steel types and status immune mons than other kinds of status with less relevant absorbers such as paralysis and burn. Knock Off on the other hand is a more relevant issue was while knock off users in SV Ubers tend to be non-legendary pokémon and some exceptions like Necro-DM, so resistance to the move feels more appreciated in this meta.

ternatus' Dragon STAB allows mostly strong neutral hits into the Ubers metagame, while it's Poison STAB and Fire-type coverage target specific Dragon resistances. Should CAP38 similarly aim for strong neutral STAB hits with few resistances? Or should it aim for more SE STAB hits?

I think strong neutral STAB with few resistances is a better pick that SE STAB hits. Etern's bread and butter in Ubers is not having the perfect attacks to just hit the entire metagame for supereffective damage, but have reliable clicks against most of the meta that it makes most of the damage stick and wear down the opposing pokémon. Now, admitedly the fact that CAP OU is a significantly bulkier metagame means that most pokémon want to click stuff that guarantees the opponent will go down as quick as possible and not lose the attrition war, but in general a neutral hitting profile is what enables a Necro-like mon to have a large variety of sets instead of being locked to a singular option.

In Concept Assessment, it was decided that CAP38 should be resilient to a relevant form of passive damage. What relevant forms of passive damage can be addressed by typing alone?
On that same note, if CAP38 aims for 'perfect' 3-move coverage, how important is having multiple STABs? And how should they complement one another?

Fusing these two together since I think the first question is not the correct framing for what we are looking for and the second one plays into the idea that I wanna talk about right now.

We shouldn't really be asking about wherever which typings can mitigate passive damage by themselves, but rather if we want our typing to be the way that we address them in the first place. Im gonna quote something that spoo said on the discord that I think perfectly encapsulates the idea:

Eternatus notably lacks a better ability than pressure in Ubers. I won't lie and say that its not useful for it since pp stalling stuff like toxic and a sig or two is very important but in general pp stalling is harder in OU, so that leaves our ability stage pretty open.

I think that right now we should make an important distinction: Should we use our typing to offensively mimic etern's role and copy its defensive utility with an ability, or should we take the opposite approach and mimic Etern's defensive utility with our typing and have the ability take on offensive duties?

Personally Im on the camp that we should prioritize offensively mimicking Etern with leaving our defensive utility up on the hand of the ability stage. And for that reasons I think that the priority with our typing should be our offensive coverage over anything else.

38 having multiple stabs that largely compliment each other is important to be able to achieve this. Even though Eternatus doesn't always use both stabs and coverage on the same set, it is still present in the many sets that the pokémon wants to run. The ability to interchange the offensive coverage it has alongside being able to comfortably drop one coverage option for a rare utility or weird setup option is what I think will allow the levels of utility that Etern has, so the STABs should prioritize hitting most of the metagame for good damage by themselves and just have coverage for one or 2 weird options that its stabs may not work the best at.

The typing itself being able to deal with a bit of passive damage is an alright thing to have, but it shouldn't supercede our need for a good offensive typing.

 

[Rysachi]

Poison-typing is fairly unique in the Ubers metagame, with the only legendary/mythical Poison-type Pokemon being Eternatus and Arceus-Poison. Is it important that CAP38 occupy a similarly rare or niche typing in the CAP OU metagame?

I don't particularly think it would be a requirement for CAP 38 to have a rare or niche typing in the OU metagame albeit having an unique typing by default could make it easier to fit as a staple onto teams if they lack this particular trait that we decide CAP 38 can provide through typing. However, it should be note that we should try and find a typing that doesn't have direct competition with another CAP or OU staple mon that can provide a similar niche in either being an immunity to a particular status or hazards or competition in sharing typings that would provide a similar role e.g. if we made CAP 38 a flying type for Spikes immunity and give it a status immunity e.g. Toxic then we are directly competing with viable Pokemon such as , and so we should at least attempt to look into a typing that avoids this form of conflict.

Certain moves like Knock Off or Toxic are far less common in Ubers than other metagames. This allows for some Pokemon with notable type weaknesses to nonetheless find success. In translating an Uber to the CAP OU metagame what concessions or adapatations need to be made to account for these differences? Is a weakness to hazards, for example, more of a liability in CAP OU?

A weakness to hazards especially in the form of Stealth Rocks whilst isn't a complete liability in Gen 9 CAP due to the inclusion of Heavy-Duty Boots, with the set flexibility we are aiming to achieve to replicate Eternatus as our chosen Uber for CAP 38, the held item slot can further enhance our goal in versatility. Eternatus for example can choose between Life Orb on offensive sets, Heay-Duty Boots or Sitrus (likely replaced by Leftovers in a scaled down meta) on more defensive orientated sets, Power Herb on Meteor Beam sets (we can also use this we want to recreate a 1:1 with Meteor Beam or as mentioned by some Electro Shot) and Choice Scarf (would be the most hindered by having a Stealth Rock weakness.) Feeling more forced into running Heavy-Duty Boots as a form of hazard protection would heavily reduce the viability of being able to run Power Herb or Scarf sets and should encourage us to verge away a hazard weakness unless we want to completely narrow down the Ability process to avoid the issue.

In Concept Assessment, it was decided that CAP38 should be resilient to a relevant form of passive damage. What relevant forms of passive damage can be addressed by typing alone?

Brigtel has summed up this pretty well with the table imo although I would argue there is a bigger priority on not becoming worn down to hazards. I would also say Poison is far more of a primary focus over Burn and unless we decide to go for a physically offensive Eternatus although with Meteor Beam or Electro Shot in mind, I would argue it to be unlikely. Poison however should be our main focus as Toxic would heavily hinder CAP 38 that we decided on CA2 should have limited utility and assumingly a lack of way to pivot to focus our attention away from a "hit and run" playstyle.

That being said, I don't think we have to dedicate our typing towards being a poison immunity as there are other tools at our disposal that users have previously mentioned e.g. through ability or movepool (I was personally a big fan of Lunar Blessing but I don't know how impactful 25% recovery would be on CAP 38 compared to natural Toxic immunity + 50% recovery.) I do think it'll be good to keep in mind of Poison and Steel in mind as both typings do provide a potentially more expendable STAB and allow us to explore a secondary STAB pairing to somewhat replicate the reliability and damage output of Eternamax Cannon whilst also immediately taking care of the primary status that would immediately hinder CAP 38.

Spammer also mentioned about keeping in mind of paralysis status which I can agree is also something to be worth noting, albeit I don't think CAP 38 should have access to both poison and paralysis immunity unless we are certain on the ability angle to be an omni status immunity ability which we aren't at that stage yet.

Eternatus' Dragon STAB allows mostly strong neutral hits into the Ubers metagame, while it's Poison STAB and Fire-type coverage target specific Dragon resistances. Should CAP38 similarly aim for strong neutral STAB hits with few resistances? Or should it aim for more SE STAB hits?

Mentioned it above but I believe having a reliable neutral STAB + one coverage move to cover for any resistances/immunities to the STAB is very pro concept for what we are trying to achieve with CAP 38. Aiming for SE STAB's would negate the necessity for needing coverage and could potentially cause CAP 38 to expend more than one moveslot for support which as mentioned in CA2 would be something we are trying to limit and would also in the long run hurt set flexibility and would make it more difficult for us to control the necessity for CAP 38 to be able to run a variety of sets all with potential "movepool holes" that it may lack compared to an alternative set if it is able to cover the vast majority of typings with only Dual STAB and would lead to CAP 38 be harder to wall.

On that same note, if CAP38 aims for 'perfect' 3-move coverage, how important is having multiple STABs? And how should they complement one another?

Already kind of touched this question above but I believe having a STAB that is less reliable and able to be considered to drop and a more reliable STAB that resembles Eternamax Cannon that can be used throughout every set is the correct way to go about this. I've also discussed during both the Eternatus suggestion post and CA2 that I'm very pro for CAP 38 to be aiming for "perfect coverage" where both STAB's have a common shared typing that it struggles to break past and a coverage move that covers for both of these and perfectly resembles one of the standout points to Eternatus being the chosen slate.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Hazards are somewhat less relevant, mostly because heavy duty boots does so much of the job that trying to address it through typing alone would feel a bit forced, and whatever mitigation a type alone brings is not enormously impactful.

I'm actually not the biggest fan of this logic, as I think that having freedom in our item slot is going to go a very long way in achieving our concept here. While I normally think concerns about being Stealth Rock weak are bit overblown by CAP, I think this is an interesting case of it being fairly justified, as many of Eternatus' more prominent sets are enabled by varying items (Eject Pack pivoting and mono-attack Dynamax Cannon w/ Metronome both come to mind here). With me saying this, it's pretty clear that I think that I think a Stealth Rock resistance here would actually go quite a long way if we can feasibly fit it on, but as for striving for a Spikes immunity, that's unfortunately a different story for fairly straightforward reasons.

 

[AzothBend]

Howdy! Thanks to everyone for participating. We've had a great discussion, but I think it's time we move onto the next round of questions. To recap, some observations of your posts so far

Observations

# CAP38 may benefit from avoiding competition with types that saturate the meta

# Passive resilience is not a top priority in this stage, but is a nice bonus

# Toxic resilience is not a top priority thanks to an abundance of absorbers in CAP

# A Stealth Rock weakness may hinder CAP38's ability to run multiple items/sets

# Burn and Paralysis are other notable candidates for CAP38's passive resilience

# Broadly neutral STAB hits are preferred over SE STAB hits

# Any STAB or STAB combination should have a "coverage gap" against a notable typing

Now onto the new questions! For this round, I'd like to open discussion on specific types and they're offensive and defensive merits. There a few points mentioned here and in the Discord that should be clarified before continuing, lest we unintentionally place ourselves in a corner. Type submissions are not quite open yet; please stand by.

I'd also like to remind some of you that no moves have been decided upon yet; you should not assume CAP 38 will have any moves but those listed in the Universally Assumed Moves. Meteor Beam's time for judgment will come.

TLT Note: Spammernoob would like to add that CAP38 will have some form of recovery. It's not really applicable to the questions below, but is it technically correct. Carry on.

• Offensively, what types or type combinations offer a broad range of neutral STAB hits against the meta game? And what opposing types commonly resist them?
• Eternatus will sometimes drop it's Poison STAB for other coverage or utility. If CAP38 has dual STAB, how important is it that it be able to drop one STAB or the other?

As an addendum, after consulting with TLT, the current plan is for type submissions to include listing potential non-STAB coverage types. This will allow for better consideration of each submission and it's implications in later stages. Thanks!

 

[traceyscetchit]

Eternatus will sometimes drop it's Poison STAB for other coverage or utility. If CAP38 has dual STAB, how important is it that it be able to drop one STAB or the other?

Very. In my eyes, has 3 kinds of moves:
The Good Stab (Dynamax Canon/Dragon Pulse):

• This move is extremely spammable, has few resists, and does good damage into most of the metagame. This is the move that is often clicked the most, and the other moves are all centered around it.

The Coverage Move (Fire Blast/Flamethrower/Mystical Fire)

• This move, along with the good stab, hits almost the entire metagame for neutral damage.
• I put this as the second kind of move for a reason. If eternatus is running two damaging moves, this will be the second move, over the other stab.
• This move supports the good stab, rather than the other way around. eg. ghost as the good stab and fighting as the coverage works better than the other way around, as fighting perfectly covers ghost's resists while the inverse is not true.

The "Bad" Stab (Sludge Bomb)

• This move is less spammable than the good stab, and doesn't benefit from the coverage move as much.
• This move is only ran tertiarily to the good stab and the coverage move; if any of the three would be dropped, it is this move.
• This move supports the good stab/coverage move combo despite that combo being unresisted by hitting pokemon that resist the stab move and are only hit neutrally by the coverage move for super effective, stab damage.
• This move has a negative synergy of some kind with the stab move, preventing them both from being run together without the coverage move.

These are a lot of stipulations and I do not expect we will hit them all. However, the last 3 qualities of the bad stab have been somewhat overlooked in my opinion, and I think that seeing two sets, one with good stab+coverage move, and one with all 3 moves, is a non-negotiable to me.

 

[quziel]

The important thing is that there is a 2 move combo, including at least one of our STAB typings, that has good coverage into the meta, with some notable holes, while there should be a 3 move combo, including at least one of our STAB typings, that has great coverage into the meta. The latter could be upgraded to including both our STABS, but I don't think we should disqualify a hypothetical mono-typing, though I suspect it will still likely struggle to compete. Although that's a general trend for CAPs.

I confess, plotting out STAB combos for this mon has proven difficult as well, its really hard to replicate Poison/Dragon/Fire's particular offensive coverage. Some generally good offensive typings such as Fairy, Normal, Dragon itself, and Fighting work, but then you get into the defensive elements as well.

 

[Koleda]

For the first question, Dragon, Dark, and Ghost have pretty wide reaching neutral coverage. It is worth noting that Dark resists two of these, as does Fairy.

For the second question, since Eternatus could drop a STAB I think it's fine that we can as well, just so long as said STAB is usable. It should be viable, but not mandatory.

Sorry if this is kind of a short post, but I feel like I covered the essential points as well as I needed to.

 

[Guingil]

Totally agree with traceysketchit's and quziel's posts about the need for a good 2-move combination to cover most (if not all) of the meta, with the other STAB move elevating this combo through super effective hits on a key type.

I would weigh the STAB + coverage combination higher than the neutral coverage of one STAB move alone, though, especially in the context of a larger metagame. The broadly neutral Dragon-type STAB is sometimes dropped by Pokemon such as Dragonite and Kyurem in favour of near-perfect coverage. I suspect coverage goes further in OU/CAP than in Ubers: while Ubers Pokemon are both more bulky and offensively potent, they are more bulky than they are strong than OU (check the graphs for some sort of proof lol). This, to me, signals that a comparable offense in OU/CAP such as through a coverage move cannot be shrugged off as easily through absurd defenses. If this conclusion is sound, this is a translation effect that we take into account because the same thing (coverage) expresses something stronger in a different context.

Graphs for Ubers vs OU

Fig: Tankiness (as defined in BSR)

Fig: Higher offensive stat

Both ranked until B- in the tiers

Additionally, Azoth's point about how Eternatus "may benefit from avoiding competition with types that saturate the meta" gives us a useful lens to see which type in a combination should be the coverage, versus which should be the STAB. Usual suspects like Ground, Water, Fighting, and Fairy can be relegated to coverage because possessing these types sometimes runs into competition. They can still be considered for STAB, of course, but this is just me trying to implement an observation as a sort of guiding principle.

That said, I checked 2-type combos and how they fare against the 44 Pokemon ranked B+ and above in the CAP viability rankings (adding Obliteryx, of course, that list really should be updated soon...). I thought it would be sensible to stop at the same Dragon + Fire combination, which coincidentally is at the bottom of the tier of hitting 41 Pokemon for neutral.

2-move Combos

STAB + Coverage	Super Effective Against	Neutral To	Resisted By	Immune To	SE + Neutral Total
Fairy + Ghost	21	23	0	0	44
Fighting + Ghost	20	24	0	0	44
Flying + Water	20	24	0	0	44
Electric + Ice	19	25	0	0	44
Bug + Ghost	15	29	0	0	44
Ground + Ice	26	17	1	0	43
Fairy + Water	25	18	1	0	43
Ground + Rock	22	21	1	0	43
Ghost + Water	21	22	1	0	43
Dragon + Water	20	23	1	0	43
Electric + Fairy	20	23	1	0	43
Psychic + Water	20	23	1	0	43
Rock + Water	20	23	1	0	43
Ghost + Ground	19	24	1	0	43
Dark + Ground	17	26	1	0	43
Fire + Rock	17	26	1	0	43
Dragon + Electric	16	27	1	0	43
Dark + Flying	15	28	1	0	43
Dragon + Ghost	15	28	1	0	43
Normal + Water	13	30	1	0	43
Dark + Normal	7	36	1	0	43
Dragon + Ground	21	21	2	0	42
Dark + Fairy	20	22	2	0	42
Ghost + Ice	20	22	2	0	42
Fighting + Flying	19	23	2	0	42
Ghost + Rock	19	23	2	0	42
Electric + Ghost	18	24	2	0	42
Ghost + Grass	17	25	2	0	42
Electric + Psychic	17	25	1	1	42
Dark + Electric	16	26	2	0	42
Electric + Flying	15	27	2	0	42
Fire + Psychic	15	27	2	0	42
Electric + Fire	14	28	2	0	42
Fire + Ghost	13	29	2	0	42
Electric + Normal	9	33	2	0	42
Ghost + Normal	9	33	2	0	42
Fairy + Ground	29	12	3	0	41
Flying + Ground	23	18	3	0	41
Fairy + Rock	21	20	3	0	41
Fighting + Rock	21	20	3	0	41
Dark + Water	19	22	3	0	41
Grass + Rock	19	22	3	0	41
Poison + Water	19	22	3	0	41
Ground + Psychic	19	22	2	1	41
Fire + Ground	18	23	3	0	41
Electric + Rock	16	25	3	0	41
Flying + Ghost	16	25	3	0	41
Electric + Steel	15	26	3	0	41
Ghost + Poison	15	26	3	0	41
Ground + Normal	15	26	3	0	41
Dark + Poison	14	27	3	0	41
Fire + Flying	14	27	3	0	41
Ghost + Steel	14	27	3	0	41
Dark + Steel	13	28	3	0	41
Dragon + Fire	13	28	3	0	41

I think some interesting things are up there, aside from known good stuff like BoltBeam, Ice + Ground, and Ghost combinations. Ghost is actually a tricky one to me because often you can get really good coverage with just about any other type, but it's more neutral-leaning than super effective. Some types like Rock lack any real STAB (ab)users outside of offense/bulky offense (Stratagem, Glimmora, arguably Cornerpon; Garganacl's Salt Cure doesn't count as a Rock-move + it's a Tera Hog; Tyranitar is back in UU), so having a versatile glue Pokemon that can fit on many archetypes could be a good niche. Electric similarly has only a few good STAB users while having the benefit of the paralysis immunity which, as quziel and spammernoob said, could be the equivalent of having a Toxic immunity in Ubers given how common paralysis is in CAP. Some Poison and Fire mentions in those combinations to counter the other statuses as well, although the latter has to account for the SR weakness.

All that to say, we have loads of types to choose from in my opinion lol. It'll be interesting to see what other STABs people can fit within these combinations to meet the criteria for the droppable move that creates a "hole".

 

[Badly Poisoned]

So I have been making “good” use of my free time in class and spreadsheeting out the effectiveness of all 816 offensive combinations against all 171 defensive ones, then sorted by SE% and Neutral %.

Unsurprising, the top hits were Normal/x/x, Ghost/x/x and Ghost/Dark/x, and because their inclusion completely messes up any way of drawing a meaningful conclusion, I tentatively filtered out Normal and Ghost from the list. Doesn't mean I recommend against them, I'm just doing so to be able to better draw trends

1. Here's the top hits when allowing type combinations that hit <4.5% of all type combinations for resisted

Hide

2. And here's the top hits for type combinations with perfect neutral coverage, Normal/x/x and Ghost/Dark/x included.

Hide

I know this is an overextrapolation because not all type combinations are equally represented in competitive tiers, but I found some interesting things that may come in handy for further discussion.

1. Unsurprisingly, Electric, Dark (and Ghost) and Dragon is showing up a lot on the top neutral hits, very expected because those are the types I think of when I think "neutral" typing.

2. I previously said that Fire/Poison/Dragon is a mostly neutral typing based on a hunch, but now I have the data to support it. Across all types that hit everything at least neutrally, it has the 8th highest neutral %, and the 3rd if we exclude Normal/x/x and Ghost/Dark/x.

3. Despite being one of the most neutral type combinations out there, it still hits 42% of all type combinations for SE, which is much higher than I anticipated. For reference, Electric/Ice hits 36.3% of all combinations for SE, but in practice it feels like it's getting to hit SE more often. I think the lesson here is that SE% and Neutral% on these tables is only for the sake of depiction, and may not full represent how it plays out in an actual tier. Certain types are more viable in certain tiers than others.
I'm planning to fine tune the data to only look at typings well represented in the VR, but I'm presenting my preliminary data in case I didn't finish looking at it. (done)
==========
Appendix:
1. Top hits if Dark is excluded instead, to avoid Ghost/Dark/x

Hide

2. Top hits if everything is allowed

Hide

====================
Important addendum
Glad I decided to look at this sheet with VR as denominator, because I'm surprised at the difference.
(I can't guarantee the accuracy of data below this point, because I didn't count the typing of mons in the VR manually)
(Also, it counts based on per Pokemon rather than per unique type combination)

1. <4.5% resisted; Normal, Ghost excluded
2. <4.5% resisted; Normal, Dark excluded
3. unresisted; full data
4. unresisted; Normal/x/x, Ghost/Dark/x excluded

Full VR list

B- and above

1. Notably, Electric/x/x has massively fallen off when sorting by Neutral %, correlating to my earlier hypothesis that Electric in practice has a lot of SE hits.
2. Surprisingly, Fire/x/x actually has a pretty significant Neutral % when only counting viable mons, which is surprising because we usually think of Fire as the offensive typing.

PS: My apologies if my post turns out extremely image-heavy, and if that's a problem maybe I can share the data in some other way.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

So I have been making “good” use of my free time in class and spreadsheeting out the effectiveness of all 816 offensive combinations against all 171 defensive ones, then sorted by SE% and Neutral %.

Unsurprising, the top hits were Normal/x/x, Ghost/x/x and Ghost/Dark/x, and because their inclusion completely messes up any way of drawing a meaningful conclusion, I tentatively filtered out Normal and Ghost from the list. Doesn't mean I recommend against them, I'm just doing so to be able to better draw trends
1. Here's the top hits when allowing type combinations that hit <4.5% of all type combinations for resisted

Hide

2. And here's the top hits for type combinations with perfect neutral coverage, Normal/x/x and Ghost/Dark/x included.

Hide

I know this is an overextrapolation because not all type combinations are equally represented in competitive tiers, but I found some interesting things that may come in handy for further discussion.

1. Unsurprisingly, Electric, Dark (and Ghost) and Dragon is showing up a lot on the top neutral hits, very expected because those are the types I think of when I think "neutral" typing.
2. I previously said that Fire/Poison/Dragon is a mostly neutral typing based on a hunch, but now I have the data to support it. Across all types that hit everything at least neutrally, it has the 8th highest neutral %, and the 3rd if we exclude Normal/x/x and Ghost/Dark/x.
3. Despite being one of the most neutral type combinations out there, it still hits 42% of all type combinations for SE, which is much higher than I anticipated. For reference, Electric/Ice hits 36.3% of all combinations for SE, but in practice it feels like it's getting to hit SE more often. I think the lesson here is that SE% and Neutral% on these tables is only for the sake of depiction, and may not full represent how it plays out in an actual tier. Certain types are more viable in certain tiers than others.
I'm planning to fine tune the data to only look at typings well represented in the VR, but I'm presenting my preliminary data in case I didn't finish looking at it. (done)
==========
Appendix:
1. Top hits if Dark is excluded instead, to avoid Ghost/Dark/x

Hide

2. Top hits if everything is allowed

Hide

====================
Important addendum
Glad I decided to look at this sheet with VR as denominator, because I'm surprised at the difference
1. <4.5% resisted; Normal, Ghost excluded
2. <4.5% resisted; Normal, Dark excluded
3. unresisted; full data
4. unresisted; Normal/x/x, Ghost/Dark/x excluded

Full VR list

B- and above

My apologies if my post turns out extremely image-heavy, and if so I can just share the imgur url instead.

i'm both sick and busy doing another thing so i can't do this myself, but is anyone else willing to do the busywork of cross-referencing this with the pokemon that are most relevant in the cap meta and comparing it to what eternatus's coverage and defensive matchups are like against relevant ubers? it would be useful to see if we can find a type combo that maps similarly

 

[Badly Poisoned]

i'm both sick and busy doing another thing so i can't do this myself, but is anyone else willing to do the busywork of cross-referencing this with the pokemon that are most relevant in the cap meta and comparing it to what eternatus's coverage and defensive matchups are like against relevant ubers? it would be useful to see if we can find a type combo that maps similarly

I can quickly do this, but I'm not counting the typing manually, so I can't guarantee there is no error.
(It counts based on per Pokemon rather than per unique type combination)
(I didn't even find the need to exclude Ghost/Dark/x because it didn't show up much in the top hits)
1. <4.5% resisted; only Normal excluded (P1)
2. <4.5% resisted; only Normal excluded (P2)

Full VR

I wanted to do B- and above for Ubers, but there are only 33 Pokemon with 25 unique typings, and the list gets very very crowded at every %

 

[Spammernoob]

I can quickly do this, but I'm not counting the typing manually, so I can't guarantee there is no error.
(It counts based on per Pokemon rather than per unique type combination)
(I didn't even find the need to exclude Ghost/Dark/x because it didn't show up much in the top hits)
1. <4.5% resisted; only Normal excluded (P1)
2. <4.5% resisted; only Normal excluded (P2)

Full VR

I wanted to do B- and above for Ubers, but there are only 33 Pokemon with 25 unique typings, and the list gets very very crowded at every %

I think it's worth looking at 2-type coverage as well, as some of these typings (the ones with Bug) look like they could drop one type and be OK.

spoo posted this in CAPcord (but I can't verify the methodology) that seems interesting. Maybe there are ideas worth stealing from here.

spoo's Evil Concoction