CAP 4 CAP 4 - Part 2 (Primary Typing Poll 2)

[jagged_angel]

Holy slowpoke!!

I've never seen vote this close.

Poison people. Vote Poison Poison Poison. It'll rectify all the mistakes that Bush made. Oops wrong poll, but serious Poison>Electric.

I am not going to quote you Bass, just say I totally disagree with 90% of your post.

Btw ParadOxymoron - Your lack of support for Electric/Poison, Fire/Water or Ghost/Normal shows up Your lack of creativity. Not that I favour it, but Poison/Electric could be any form of polluting power, not just a battery. A jellyfish would also work, but you could actually take Any poisonous animal and give a pokemon stylee electric twist.

If we Had to go with Poison/Electric (fleurgh) I'd put my money on a radioactive art submission, most likely.

 

[X-Act]

Seriously, I don't care about creativity. I care about usability.

 

[Zonik]

Seriously, I don't care about creativity. I care about usability.

Both things must go by the hand, both are important and the balance between them is necessary.

As far as I understood the objective of CaP project is to create new Pokémon that can work with the other Pokémon. For me that means the new Pokémon has to be usable, this is right, but, in the other hand, this objective includes to create new and different Pokémon, and that means that we should be creative in all process. But being creative doesn't mean that we should do the total opposite things that are created already. Creative ability is much more. This is why I say that usability and creativity must be balanced.

I hope that all of you can understand me, I'm spanish and my english level is not very well, but I think that's enough to understand...

 

[jagged_angel]

Several poison types already have access to the the utility of Toxic Spikes setup/absorption, so why the hell do we need another one? On the other hand, Electrics have been built primarily offensively and have very little to offer in the line of utility.

When I look at this poll, I view it in terms of the very purpose of making concepts -- the very purpose of this concept... How does our creation contribute to the overall metagame of pokemon? A poison type, based on the reasons posted so far, would do very little, but a pure utility electric type would be far more interesting and have a more profound impact on the game. It doesn't have to be game breaking, but it should at least stand out. With all of that in mind, electric is a much better choice, and I would be ashamed if the community would put the opportunity of making a pure utility pokemon to waste and vote poison.

I changed my mind; I do need to point out the flaws here. I didn't quote the start of your post because it was mainly talking about the fact that the weaknesses and resistances are irrelevant in this poll. As far as I can see they have very different resistances, and Electric only has two that are of use - Electric and Flying. Steel is not worth considering. Poison has Bug, Grass, Fighting and Poison. Yes, poison STAB is hardly ever used but Toxic is used and it is very helpful to resist that. Bug, Grass and Fighting are great resists.
Weakness wise, Poison has Psychic but Psychic is a very predictable attacking type and also very rare these days.
So, type weaknesses and resists Do matter but IMO Poison has the advantage there.

Bass, I realise that many poison types have access to Toxic Spikes set up and absorption, but we're talking about OU here. There are only two poison types in OU, Gengar and Tentacruel; only one of them can lay down toxic spikes so your argument is null and void. If we add in the fact that Leviate negates Gengar's ability to suck up toxic spikes, and the fact that he has so many offensive options that he hardly ever uses poison STAB, Gengar hardly has the stereotypical attributes of a poison type at all!
So effectively, there is only one poison type in OU. The only commonly used support options for Tentacruel are Rapid Spin, Knock Off and Toxic Spikes.

Subsequently we should consider the Electric types in OU. There are four electric types in OU, Electivire, Jolteon, Magnezone and Zapdos. Strangely enough from the Smogon sets, Electivire is the only pure attacker from the bunch. 3 of the 4 get very viable support movesets. Their list of recommended moves include Thunder Wave, Baton Pass, Substitute, Agility, Yawn, Fake Tears, Wish, Metal Sound, Magnet Rise, Roar and Light Screen. Quite a plethora.

So I'd say there's actually more of a lack of Poison utility than Electric utility in OU.

 

[T_T]

Poison has to be it!... TS absorbing and also resistant to Fighting... its great for an Utility Pkm =d

 

[ParadOxymoron]

Anyone who says that my argument is a testament to my lack of creativity is totally missing the point of my argument. It's not that I doubt the ability of this community to come up with a design that makes sense for an Electric / Poison type; it's that no matter how much sense the design makes, it's still going to be clear that we came up with the type first, and then tacked on the flavor afterwards. With the possible exceptions of Girafarig and Rotom, there's not a single Pokemon that makes me feel that way. But with Revenankh especially, while the design is appealing and does make sense, it's still painfully obvious that you realized you had to make a (traditionally more-or-less incorporeal) Ghost that liked to go around beating people up. That's not really apparent.

Think about Lanturn, for example. An angler fish! Water / Electric. Clear as day. The type was made for him. I feel that way about Pyroak, too; flaming plants have been portrayed before, and Pyroak is completely awesome, too, so the concept of a Fire / Grass Pokemon really wasn't hard to swallow. But in and of itself, a Ghost / Fighting type is hard to swallow.

Is Revenankh a Ghost / Fighting type? Yes. Does his flavor fit that of a Ghost / FIghting type? Absolutely. Does his flavor make sense? Sure. He's a kickass floating mummy who punches people. That's not hard to understand. But it's painfully obvious that the flavor was made to fit the type, not the other way around. At the end of the day, Ghosts are more or less incorporeal, and don't really go around punching people. You came up with a way to get around it, but no matter what you do, there's still going to be evidence that there was something to get around in the first place! That's what I'm trying to avoid.

If a hundred horses charged into a battle, and ninety-nine of them were riding horses, but one of them were riding a zebra, would the soldier riding the zebra fare any better than the soldiers on the horses? No. He'd look pretty interesting, sure, but why go to all that trouble training a zebra when you could just ride a horse? This may seem like a ridiculous analogy, but seriously. A Ghost / Fighting type? An Electric / Poison type? Come on. Come up with what you want, but no matter what you come up with, it's going to be clear that the only reason you came up with it was in an attempt to make the zebra look like a horse, and in the end, it's always going to be a little silly and unprofessional at its core.

 

[Pedochu]

I voted poison. For a utility pokemon, ability to absorb toxic spikes, immunity to toxic, and resistance to fighting is what we need. I was about to say everything jagged_angel, said, but he beat me to it. Great post.

I'm really in favor of a poison/electric here though.

 

[jagged_angel]

Think about Lanturn, for example. An angler fish! Water / Electric. Clear as day. The type was made for him. I feel that way about Pyroak, too; flaming plants have been portrayed before, and Pyroak is completely awesome, too, so the concept of a Fire / Grass Pokemon really wasn't hard to swallow. But in and of itself, a Ghost / Fighting type is hard to swallow.

Actually, angler fishes have nothing to do with electricity, it's bioluminescence. An Electric eel would have been obvious, but not an angler fish.

Also I personally think of Fire/Grass, a wooden poke that isn't burning itself to death is rather farcical but hey ho.

Anyway this is off topic discussion so let's save it until the next poll when Poison/Electric is going to be one of the Many options available.

 

[BARILLIAN]

Ghosts are more or less incorporeal

Not Pokemon ghosts. Say, Misdreavus is based on something both alive and physical. The concept of Revenankh is no more bizarre than the concept of Banette - they're both ghosts possessing a physical object. Oh and hey, neither can continue such an existance perpetually - Revenankh must constantly train, Banette's spirit flies off when its zipper is unzipped.

Think about Lanturn, for example. An angler fish! Water / Electric. Clear as day. The type was made for him.

Lanturn is obviously Water/Electric, why isn't Volbeat Bug/Electric from the same vein? No, I can argue that Lanturn being Water/Electric not making sense. But if Lanturn didn't exist, CaP4 was working on a Water/Electric, and someone suggested an anglerfish that can shoot thunderbolts, I'd happily accept that.

I do not understand why you are thinking there is virtually no concept that would plausibly fit to Poison/Electric type without looking "forced on". I don't think we can take art suggestions before we choose types simply because art usually defines the type. No matter how awesome your Poison/Dragon basilisk or Poison/Flying zhen bird drawings are, they're completely and utterly rubbish once we decide that the Pokemon must be an Electric type. Start working on drawing an Electric type or better luck next CaP!

It is possible to suggest that we decide types based on existing art suggestions instead, but then that's discussion for another topic.

 

[RBG]

PErsonally, i've been waiting for a trick +poison Pokemon so i could use black sludge

 

[yoshi!]

C'MON ELECTRIC. (voted for electic). ONly one vote between them =O

 

[darkjjak]

Voted Poison, because we're long overdue for another decent Poison type.

 

[Atlas]

hey guys, check out MY battery pokemon

 

[Jhonny]

Voted for electric and then was amazed at how close the vote came. I hope that people have different ideas for electric and poison rather than just making that its dual typing. In my opinion giving an electric type a function that it hasn't had before would open up the game some more rather than just adding to it.

 

[Blue Kirby]

I'd love to see a good Poison utility Pokemon. The main draw card here for me is of course, Toxic Spikes absorption. I know we have several Poison "utility" Pokemon already, but if we're that against reinventing the wheel, this Pokemon does not have to fill the same niche that the existing Poison-types do.

 

[Absolution]

I voted electric. While there might not be many good utility poison pokemon, i find the idea of a non-stereotypical electric type far more interesting. At this point, I fully expect this to end up electric/poison anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

 

[Pedochu]

Voted for electric and then was amazed at how close the vote came. I hope that people have different ideas for electric and poison rather than just making that its dual typing. In my opinion giving an electric type a function that it hasn't had before would open up the game some more rather than just adding to it.

No.

Everyone, I'd like to make it clear that electrics have supportive roles and work as utility.

PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING

Zapdos@Leftovers
252 HP / 100 Def / 100 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature (+SpA, -Atk)
- Discharge/Charge Beam
- Agility/Substitute
- Baton Pass
- HP: Ice / HP: Grass
Comments: Defensive Zapdos that passes agilities, substitutes, and/or SpA boosts with charge beam. The sub pass and agility pass are different sets, just together to save space.


Zapdos@Leftovers
252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt/Discharge
- Roost
- HP: Ice / HP: Grass
- Light Screen / Thunder Wave
Comments: Very defensive zapdos with thunder wave and light screen, to fit your teams needs.

Zapdos@Leftovers
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt/Discharge
- Metal Sound
- HP:Ice / HP: Grass
- Substitute / Roar
Comments: Special sweeper and supporter. Can phaze with roar, has a paralysis chance of discharge, and can use metal sound to force switches or make sweeping easier.

These sets demonstrate how Zapdos can work as a utility pokemon itself with Light Screen, Metal Sound, SubPass, AgilPass, Charge Beam Passing, Roar, and thunder wave.

Next up, jolteon.

Jolteon@Leftovers
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spe, - Atk)
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Yawn
- Thunderbolt
Comments: Only one attack, can pass substitutes and phaze with yawn and induce sleep.

Jolteon@Leftovers
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spe, - Atk)
- Fake Tears
- Thunderbolt
- HP:Ice / HP: Grass
- Wish
Comments: Fake tears and wish are mostly for itself, but can still support teams.

Two good sets here that illustrate Jolteon's ability as a supporter. So, here we have sub passing, yawn passing, fake tears to force switches, and wish. Jolteon can also run the exact same agility passing set as Zapdos, and has access to Roar and thunder wave.

Magnezone has less seen supporting options but still has many. Light Screen, Reflect, Thunder Wave, Screech, and Metal sound.


So, looking at this we see that the electrics, in fact, have tons of supporting options, and it is foolish to say that the role has never been filled by an electric.

Now let's look at poison types. Gengar obviously has no business supporting, so that leaves us with tentacruel. Tentacruel has haze, toxic spikes, safeguard, knock off, rapid spin, confuse ray, captivate, and thief. Seems like a lot, right? Not so much. It's only useful options given 4 moveslots are rapid sin, knock off, and toxic spikes (and rapid spin and knock off are incompatible breeding moves), and maybe haze. But there are better hazers.

 

[Magmortified]

Magnezone has less seen supporting options but still has many. Light Screen, Reflect, Thunder Wave, Screech, and Metal sound.

Yes. It makes perfect sense to sacrifice Magnezone's ability as a steel-killer to become a support Pokemon. One that wouldn't tend to work well. =P

Ultimately, the sets posted have support options that are limited at best (and I'm wondering just how much Baton Pass can be called Utility), sporting usually one utility option at a time.

I find it amazing how you scoured Electric for support stuffs when all you could find for Poison is Tentacruel. Roserade, Weezing, Drapion, etc. also make up Poison's utility ranks. While few Poison types are OU, they play a lot better Utility than plenty of Electric types can. Most Poison types tend to pack multiple support options in the same set - not something Electrics can usually boast about without sacrificing some useful things.

While Poison utility is not perfect, Electric utility is limited. I find it to be the squeakier wheel.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I like that we are having a close vote here. It's nice to see it come down to the wire. I also like the detailed discussions about what constitutes a "good type". The analyses of Electric and Poison in the current metagame have been very informative. For those of you that are new to the CAP project, this is exactly what the CAP project is about -- exploring the metagame through the creation process. Bravo to all the dedicated posters in this thread!

However, I've noticed a few posters are "rulebooking" -- which is acting like you know the rulebook Nintendo follows when making pokemon. We have a specific forum rule against posting these kinds of supposed "arguments".

• There is no public Nintendo guide or rulebook that delineates what is acceptable or unacceptable when making a Pokemon. So, don't act like you've read such a manual and memorized it word for word. No matter how experienced you are ingame, battling, or otherwise -- you are no more an "authority" on the rules of Pokemon creation than anyone else. All we have is opinions to present and discuss.

I've noticed that ParadOxymoron is heading into that territory, but his arguments are detailed and well-written, and he is bringing up other legitimate points. I don't want to moderate people that are obviously putting good work into their posts. But, others may start following this trend, so I want to point it out to everyone on the project.

Present your personal opinion, that's fine. But, don't make statements about the "obvious" intent of the game designers. You aren't the game designer, you don't know any of the game designers, and the game designers have never published anything regarding their rules for making the game. It is a completely invalid argument, but it sometimes gains traction with members not experienced with the CAP project and it sidetracks the discussion from good analytical debate.

However, you can point out statistical trends, which is totally acceptable. In fact, X-Act (a CAP moderator) regularly points out trends of in-game pokemon to argue for or against a certain decision on the CAP project. However, if quoting a statistical trend, do not present it as evidence of a "rule".

Like I said, I like the discussion we are having here. I've already learned a few new things about Electric and Poison. I can't wait to see which one wins!

(BTW - Go Electric!)

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Because I'm bored and it seem that Poison is winning, I made the Ultimate list of "Poison/whatever" combination. Feel free to fix any errors.

[B]Poison/Normal[/B]
Neutral: Fighting, Steel, Rock, Dragon, Fire, Water, Electric, Ice, Dark, Normal, Flying
Resistances: Grass, Poison, Bug
Immunities: Ghost
Weakness: Psychic, Ground

[B]Poison/Fire[/B]
Neutral: Electric, Ghost, Flying, Dark, Dragon, Normal, 
Resistances: Fire, Grass(4x), Ice, Bug(4x), Steel, Fighting, Poison
Immunities: None
Weakness: Rock, Water, Ground(4x), Psychic
[B]
Poison/Water[/B]
Neutral: Grass, Rock, Dragon, Normal, Dark, Flying, Ghost, 
Resistances: Fire, Water, Poison, Ice, Bug, Fighting, Steel 
Immunities: None
Weakness: Electric, Psychic, Ground

[B]Poison/Electric[/B]
Neutral: Water, Ghost, Dark, Dragon, Normal, Fire, Rock, Ice
Resistances: Electric, Flying, Steel, Poison, Fighting, Grass, Bug
Immunities: None
Weakness: Ground(4x), Psychic

[B]Poison/Steel[/B]
Neutral: Psychic, Fighting, Water, Electric
Resistances: Flying, Grass(4x), Bug(4x), Ghost, Ice, Dragon, Dark, Normal, Rock
Immunities: Poison
Weakness: Ground(4x), Fire

[B]Poison/Psychic[/B]
Neutral: Psychic, Electric, Bug, Rock, Dragon, Steel, Flying, Ice, Water, Fire, Normal
Resistances: Fighting(4x), Grass, Poison
Weakness: Dark, Ghost, Ground

[B]Poison/Ground[/B]
Neutral: Grass, Steel, Dragon, Dark, Normal, Flying, Ghost, Fire
Resistances: Fighting, Bug, Rock, Poison(4x)
Immunities: Electric
Weakness: Psychic, Ground, Water, Ice
[B]
Poison/Dragon[/B]
Neutral: Dark, Steel, Normal, Rock, Flying, Ghost
Resistances: Water, Fire, Grass(4x), Fighting, Electric, Bug, Poison
Weakness: Ice, Ground, Psychic, Dragon

[B]Poison/Fighting[/B]
Neutral: Fire, Water, Ice, Normal, Electric, Ghost, Steel, Dragon
Resistances: Grass, Bug(4x), Fighting, Dark, Rock, Poison
Weakness: Psychic(4x), Ground, Flying

[B]Poison/Dark[/B]
Neutral: Normal, Fire, Water, Ice, Bug, Fighting, Rock, Dragon, Steel, Flying, Electric
Resistance: Dark, Ghost, Grass, Poison
Immunities: Psychic
Weakness: Ground

[B]Poison/Flying[/B]
Neutral: Water, Dark, Dragon, Steel, Flying, Normal, Ghost, Fire
Resistance: Grass(4x), Bug(4x), Fighting(4x), Poison
Immunities: Ground
Weakness: Electric, Ice, Psychic, Rock

[B]Poison/Bug[/B]
Neutral: Electric, Ice, Dark, Dragon, Normal, Water, Steel, Ghost.
Resistance: Grass(4x), Fighting(4x), Bug, Poison
Weakness: Fire, Flying, Ground, Psychic, Rock

[B]Poison/Grass[/B]
Neutral: Normal, Ground, Rock, Poison, Bug, Dark, Dragon, Steel, Ghost
Resistance: Grass(4x), Electric, Fighting, Water
Weakness: Fire, Ice, Psychic, Flying

[B]Poison/Rock[/B]
Neutral: Grass, Fighting, Dark, Dragon, Rock, Ghost, Ice, Electric
Resistance: Poison(4x), Normal, Bug, Flying, Fire
Weakness: Water, Ground(4x), Psychic, Steel

[B]Poison/Ghost[/B]
Neutral: Fire, Water, Electric, Ice, Dragon, Steel, Rock, Flying
Resistances: Poison(4), Bug(4x), Grass
Immunities: Normal, Fighting
Weakness: Ground, Psychic, Ghost, Dark

[B]Poison/Ice[/B]
Neutral: Water, Electric, Dragon, Dark, Flying, Fighting, Normal, Ghost
Resistance: Ice, Poison, Grass, Bug
Weakness: Steel, Ground, Psychic, Rock, Fire

 

[Captain]

Poison/Dark has the least amount of weaknesses on that list on the moment. However, being part dark also means not being resistant to fighting which is one of the biggest selling points of poison. Resisting Bug, Grass, and Poison (lol, poison is far worse than steel) isn't so great when compared to resisting Flying, electric, and steel.

 

[jagged_angel]

Yes. It makes perfect sense to sacrifice Magnezone's ability as a steel-killer to become a support Pokemon. One that wouldn't tend to work well. =P

Ultimately, the sets posted have support options that are limited at best (and I'm wondering just how much Baton Pass can be called Utility), sporting usually one utility option at a time.

I find it amazing how you scoured Electric for support stuffs when all you could find for Poison is Tentacruel. Roserade, Weezing, Drapion, etc. also make up Poison's utility ranks. While few Poison types are OU, they play a lot better Utility than plenty of Electric types can. Most Poison types tend to pack multiple support options in the same set - not something Electrics can usually boast about without sacrificing some useful things.

While Poison utility is not perfect, Electric utility is limited. I find it to be the squeakier wheel.

Mag, Pedochu and I didn't Scour electric, we looked at OU pokemon and there the sets were. Smogon recommended movesets, written by mods and other experienced users. I'm not going to harp on about it, I'm just saying that of the 4 OU electrics, 3 have recommended movesets with support options; Baton Pass is the most team supporting move I can think of! How can you question that BP is Utility?!

We only mentioned Tentacruel because it's the only poison OU aside from Gengar. Yes there are other BL poisons but they're BL for a reason - they're not That useful or competitively viable. That's why Poison is underrepresented in the OU metagame.

Thanks GT for showing us the Poison+ type combos. Gulp, I have to admit I am liking Poison/Electric more when compared to the other types. The best is still clearly Poison/Steel though :-D

 

[Bass]

Bass, I realise that many poison types have access to Toxic Spikes set up and absorption, but we're talking about OU here. There are only two poison types in OU, Gengar and Tentacruel; only one of them can lay down toxic spikes so your argument is null and void.
How does that null and void my argument? My argument is that most poison types in the standard environment (not just purely OU, see next response) have a far superior range of utility options than electric types. Saying that there is only one poison type that can lay down toxic spikes is also pointless because there are non-poison type pokemon that can lay down toxic spikes, most notably Forretress and Cloyster. Regardless of what types win, how does that stop us from giving our pokemon access to the utility that is toxic spikes (which I am arguing is uneccessary anyway).

If we add in the fact that Leviate negates Gengar's ability to suck up toxic spikes, and the fact that he has so many offensive options that he hardly ever uses poison STAB, Gengar hardly has the stereotypical attributes of a poison type at all!
So effectively, there is only one poison type in OU. The only commonly used support options for Tentacruel are Rapid Spin, Knock Off and Toxic Spikes.

Please tell me where it says we are forced to limit our arguments to the OU tier. Smogon's tiering system puts BL below OU in terms of use, and not power. Since you don't seem to put the just as powerful BL pokemon in consideration, then you completely ignore the fact that there are several good utility poison types that are viable in the standard environment, overused or not. Mag and Aldaron have already mentioned several of them.

Subsequently we should consider the Electric types in OU. There are four electric types in OU, Electivire, Jolteon, Magnezone and Zapdos. Strangely enough from the Smogon sets, Electivire is the only pure attacker from the bunch. 3 of the 4 get very viable support movesets. Their list of recommended moves include Thunder Wave, Baton Pass, Substitute, Agility, Yawn, Fake Tears, Wish, Metal Sound, Magnet Rise, Roar and Light Screen. Quite a plethora.


So I'd say there's actually more of a lack of Poison utility than Electric utility in OU.

Electivire may be the only pure attacker, but none of the others can be called pure utility pokemon, unlike poisons such as Tentacruel or Roserade. Yes, these electrics have access to support moves, but they are either too weak to use them well or detract from the main reason people use these said pokemon. Zapdos comes somewhat close but again, he is more commonly used for stalling or sweeping than team support. The only utility poison type in OU, Tentacruel, is primarily built to fill in the roll of utility rather well already, better than Zapdos, Jolteon, or Magnezone. So I'd say there's actually more of a lack of Electric utility than Poison utility in THE GAME, period.

 

[Captain]

Although Steel has plenty of resists it goes against one of the biggest reasons of picking poison: the fighting resist. The only other big reason is toxic spike absorption and tentacruel does that rather well already.

 

[Metallic]

Electric. It has been said before, there is a shortage of electric utility Pokemon.