CAP 16 CAP 5 - Part 3 - Threats Discussion

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Banned deucer.
thread's wrapping up so final thoughts


an "ultimate spinner" is a powerful tool, but it's far from broken. You simply need to look at all the posters above (reach, lolcat) to see some evidence as to why. Assuming a set of Power whip / pursuit / spin / recovery(or w/e), you allow so many common threats to sun in that it's almost embarrassing—well worth the spin, probably, but not fun. You claim that it's an all around "water counter," but when you look, most waters are only slightly threatened. Rotom-W? We won't enjoy a WoW or Volt Switch. Keld? Physical STAB to the face. Gyara? Physical STAB to the face. Cloyster? Physical STAB to the face. This leaves it beating or kinda beating Tenta, Jelli, Starmie, and Politoed, and considering it loses to most non-waters on a rain team, it's not a "rain counter" at all. CAP5 is fulfilling three very, very specific niches on a sun team—ToedKiller, LatiKiller, and Spinner—all incredibly important niches, but no wide swath of utility that would push it or sun into broken territory (especially when you consider we are surrendering donphan/forry's role of overall dragon check)

furthermore, I am not overly worried about cap5 being used on other types of teams /because/ its niches are so specific. i mean in theory, any team that needs a toed killer, a lati counter and a spinner will be able to employ cap5 (not if we give it chloro *rubs hands together evilly*), but what needs all three of those roles? typically, only sun and weatherless balance teams. Tyranitar is the lati counter on every sand team, rain teams don't need a toedkiller, ho teams arent overly worried about spinning. If we increase the usage of only sun and weatherless balance, we will probably end up boosting underrepresented types in the process of boosting underrepresented playstyles.

as an afterthought, being the best at removing hazards would boost the usage of fire, ice, and bug, three rare types in ou. and removing hazards 100% reliably may be cool but it's not broken—the colossoil playtest demonstrates this (i know you weren't around for it but ask anyone who was)

reach, lolcat, others:

See ganj's and ginga's arguments for why i am wary of giving this thing extra coverage. While I just finished telling ganj that its confinement to specific niches would keep it from breaking sun, I'm not about to turn around and give it coverage moves that turn it into a catch-all "we fix every problem sun gives us with coverage!"


i already told you on irc, but a great post that i think really does sum up the direction for this concept. as to address your question at the end of the post: "If we end up filling the role of SR Handler, is there anything currently dealt with by existing Sun team SR Handlers that we MUST deal with to fill the role, that is NOT already indicated by Dark/Grass typing or already handled by other members of Sun teams?"

Sun teams function via maintaining a frail offensive pressure on their opponent, and if it's reversed at any time, they often crumble. Spinning is the ultimate forfeit of momentum, as erisia and reachzero pointed out above me. As such, CAP5 must be extremely wary of letting in any Pokemon who threatens most or all of a standard sun team which Venusaur (or the rest of the team) cannot handle—these being dragons and Rock Polish Landorus. I would prefer not to have any of these things get free setup on CAP5 (though being able to kill it is OK).
So I largely agree with reachzero and detroitlolcat on the subject of coverage moves. The point is not about beating Steel-types. The Steel-types that have been mentioned should counter CAP 5. However, I think that there's something to be said about not being completely useless against some Steel-types. I don't think that a move that, say, hits Scizor neutrally would suddenly break CAP 5. There's a difference between being countered by X and being a complete liability against X.


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There has been somegreat discussion in this thread, but since my last post, I feel the majority was in agreement, and I there was not much to convince me otherwise regarding the specifics on Steel types and the kind of things we want to threaten. We are already well on the way to helping out sun by threatening Latios, Latias, and various water types, and, when it comes to Steel types, trying to overcome that which sun already handles is unnecessary, and would only serve to make our Pokémon more independent from its teammates, which in the long run may simply make it more desirable to be used outside of our target weather, without actually aiding what we want to aid.

Also, to address capefeather's post above, while I see nothing wrong with having a coverage move that would hit such Pokemon neutrally, much of the suggestions in this thread that suggest hitting something like Scizor neutral are predicated on wanting to hit some other Steel types hard with super effective moves, which I do not believe is something we should be trying to do.

So, moving along, here are some lists of what we should be aiming to threaten and be threatened by:

Psychic types: especially Latios & Latias
Water types: most notably Politoed
Ghost types: Gengar and Jellicent
Electric types: Rotom-W, Jolteon, Thundurus-T

Be threatened by:
Steel types: including Heatran and especially Scizor
Bug types: Volcarona (and Scizor again) most imporatantly
Fire types: Ninetales and Infernape, for example
Some fighting types: such as Breloom and Toxicroak

Overall I don’t feel there was a lot of consensus either way about what we should do as far as Dragons. I think the best approach to is to not try and threaten them, but not be overly threatened. How this is accomplished can be decided later, but this could be via threatening non-damaging moves or simply having enough power on neutral or better hits that they cannot efficiently switch in, even if CAP5 could not stop them once they have already come into play. The goal with these Pokémon is to fit them squarely in between the two above categories.
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