Just because some Pokemon that use Explosion have the surprise factor means that the move has unexplored potential?
That wasn't my point at all; my point was that if Explosion is as common as you claim, then why can i not think of a single Pokemon in OU that I expect to run it?
What is exactly that we don't know about this move?
How to make it work in Gen V OU, since nothing we know of does.
Not to mention that many Pokemon use it successfully in literally all tiers. Lead Forretress, lead Azelf, and TR Bronzong use it in OU, Genesect uses it on its best set in Ubers, Golem uses it in NU etc. We know what this move is capable of, we know the reasons it is used, and there are already many Pokemon that use it to a successful extend.
Booming forry, Azelf, Zong? I'm sorry, are you sure you're participating in a fifth gen CAP?
17:10 Pwnemon: !usage forretress ou
17:10 TIBot: #19 in OU | Usage: 9.58615% | Raw count: 157,596 | Weight: 0.645762336007
17:10 Pwnemon: !usage forretress moves
17:10 TIBot: ...| Explosion 12.007% |...
17:10 Pwnemon: !usage azelf ou
17:10 TIBot: #83 in OU | Usage: 1.40380% | Raw count: 22,337 | Weight: 0.667282835131
17:10 Pwnemon: !usage azelf moves ou
17:10 TIBot: ...| Explosion 44.595% |...
17:10 TIBot: #60 in OU | Usage: 2.19330% | Raw count: 36,245 | Weight: 0.642356422021
17:10 Pwnemon: !usage bronzong moves ou
17:10 TIBot: ...| Explosion 34.476% |...
Given your three examples added together, we get 2.53% usage. I won't even address the other examples because they hardly tell us how to effectively use explosion in OU.
For kicks i ctrl+f'd literally every ou pokemon's analysis (even the ones who didn't learn it, to see if they needed to watch out for it!) for "explosion" and found these mentions: Cloyster's OO, Forry's OO, Gengar's OO, Magnezone's OO, Metagross's OO, and a secondary slash on Ferro's CB set. (Notably, it was not mentioned at all for Lando-T, who has 145 Atk and the move, or Heatran, which has five different sets with the move in DPP)
17:14 Pwnemon: !usage ferrothorn moves ou
17:14 TIBot: Leech Seed 83.975% | Power Whip 70.537% | Stealth Rock 58.259% | Spikes 53.286% | Gyro Ball 40.783% | Thunder Wave 39.701% | Protect 35.011% | Other 18.448%
So, no, explosion is not as understood in gen V as you would have us believe. It's very much unexplored territory.
I see nothing worth exploring with this move. Not to mention that not all moves that are not used a lot in OU aren't used because they lack the proper users. Some moves are just bad or mediocre and this is why they don't see a lot of usage. This is the case with Explosion too.
I'd just like to point out the beautiful irony right here of you claiming (without basis) that explosion is so awful that nothing should ever consider basing a set around it, yet it's also far too ubiquitous to even consider for this project because everyone and their mother runs it and we know everything about it.
It is a mediocre and situational move that has a few uses but nothing more to let it become a staple in OU.
The concept isn't to completely change the face of the OU metagame, it's simply to create a pokemon that succeeds thanks in part to an underused move. Would you call Trick Room an OU staple? How about Disable? Yet there are pokemon that run effective sets with each of these moves.
Not all unused moves (and Explosion isn't even really unused, at least the way i see it) have unexplored potential, some are just mediocre or bad.
Yet you support recycle. Let's just let that sink in for a second.
Doom Desire is a dreadful move.
Honestly, I hate to go on a huge rant about a single move, but I actually can't believe the momentum this move is getting. Trouble is, nobody is really analysing the move properly. We're all being brainwashed by the idea of a high base power move that has poor distribution and a unique effect and we're not actually looking at how it works.
Let's break down exactly how this move is going to work in reality.
- Doom Desire will take 2 turns to hit
- In those 2 turns, the user can't use Doom Desire again and the opponent is free to switch
- Steel is a dreadful offensive type. Water, Steel, Electric and Fire all resist it. We see plenty of those types in OU: I'd wager the average team would have at least 2 Steel resits, without even trying. The only types it hits for Super Effective damage are Ice and Rock. They're some of the rarest types in OU
- Considering all this, the odds of getting a Super Effective hit with Doom Desire are abysmal. Even getting a neutral hit is going to require careful play that goes way beyond 1 turn prediction. It's very much in your opponents hands (and as Birkal rather eloquently described, this is something we should avoid).
- While you wait for Doom Desire to hit, what do you do?
- Let's assume we're using a Steel type so we can get STAB. Do we not give it any other STABs to encourage Doom Desire? In that case, what the heck is it meant to do while waiting for Doom Desire to hit? But if we give it another viable Steel STAB, then what's to stop it running it over Doom Desire? Or are we wasting 2 slots on the same type? None of these options work.
- No abilities assist Doom Desire specifically. No other moves assist it specifically. There's nothing we can do to make it a better option than Flash Cannon. Frankly, I'd rather run Hidden Power Steel.
I'm trying to keep an open mind, so if someone can actually explain to me how this can be competitively viable, please feel free to. But right now I just feel like everyone is overlooking this moves competitive inadequacies because it's rare and "cool".
This is a fair question, because I don't think anyone's truly explained how Doom Desire works. The problem with wallbreakers in general is simple: your opponent doesn't have to switch in the wall you want to break. I actually love the fact that Doom Desire is walled by the common "bulky" types of Water and Steel because it plays right into the hands of the Doom Desire user: you draw them in because they don't want to lose a Pokemon to the Doom Desire, and then that pokemon has to tank another hit at the same time, probably breaking them. Aside from that, it also puts nice, wholesome pressure on the opponent. Consider this scenario:
I'm playing against standard balanced Sand team with a LO heatran, with one difference: this heatran has Doom Desire. My opponent's team is Celebi / Ferrothorn / Keldeo / Tyranitar / Scizor / Terrakion (and while I'm no OU expert and I came up with that in roughly ten seconds, I would consider it to be a fair team).
- I bring in Heatran as Celebi uses recover because that's all Celebi ever does
- Celebi U-turns out to Terrak to take the fire blast; I use Doom Desire
- Terrak CCs as I Protect
- The opponent literally cannot keep all of his Pokemon alive if I Fire Blast right here. Celebi, Ferrothorn, and Scizor can all take a Doom Desire, but will crumple to the Fire Blast. Terrak can KO Heatran (or at least hope to KO it if i don't switch) but Doom Desire is obviously a KO. Tyranitar can easily tank a Fire Blast, but it's more than handily KOed by my Doom Desire. Keldeo could take either hit separately from 70%, but the two combined are enough to just barely KO—even before Rocks, or sand.
Of course this is an overly idealistic scenario. Furthermore, you may be thinking, "well, so what, if your tran had flash cannon, you could have KOed the Terrakion and never had to worry about mind-games at all!" Well, then, consider this alternate scenario.
- I bring in Heatran as Celebi uses recover because that's all celebi ever does.
- Ballsy Celebi player thinks he's cool and uses SR instead of U-turn; I use Doom Desire
- Even if he knows my set right now, his shit is entirely sunk at this point. He can go to Keldeo, Terrakion, or Tyranitar to tank the impending Fire Blast, or sacrifice one of his three other Pokemon. No matter what he does on this turn, the next turn will be a repeat of the one mentioned above, where me using fire blast will only not result in a death if i miss.
Whereas if I had had flash cannon there, Celebi would have taken like 35% and he could have gone to Terrak the next turn and forced me out. As you can see, Doom Desire creates neat scenarios of pressure.
"That's not fair, Pwne!" you say, "you picked six pokemon that were ohkoed by doom desire + fire blast!" OK, let's imagine replacing any of the pokemon in this scenario with Heatran, the #1 Pokemon in OU guaranteed to give zero shits about either Doom Desire or Fire Blast. If I bring in Terrakion while he brings in Keldeo, he now has slightly more options at least:
1) He could switch, and watch something die to CC + Doom Desire
2) He could stay in and risk a speed tie, which, even if he wins, will virtually kill his keldeo, who has now taken upwards of 70% from doom desire + 2 turns of sand + rocks.
The point of doom Desire is not to simply overload the opponent with shitty Steel type moves, it's to exploit the fact that the only types which can comfortably take Doom Desire have exploitable weaknesses, and use this fact to pressure the opponent into a no-win situation.
for this purpose is nyttyn entirely wrong: Jirachi is a
horrible indication of Doom Desire's power, as it is both too weak in the SpA department to really pressure the opponent and entirely lacking in a solid secondary STAB to match up with it.
edit: also, in more niche scenarios it can be used to ensure a different pokemon's sweep; for example if your opponent's volc check is a Terrak, you can use Doom Desire to get safe setup while Terrak can't come in.
(Oh and also, please think of optics for a second. Doom Desire is the signature move of a legendary. We're supposed to avoid them so that we don't look like a bunch of drooling fanboys. It just looks unprofessional to an outsider.)
This is a reservation i too share with doom desire, and the reason why i would rather go with explosion. However, it is an interesting concept, and everyone hates us anyway because that's the hip thing to do on smogon so what the hell.
edit@alt: if we were to pick explosion, i wouldn't want a pokemon built around explosion so much as a pokemon which uses explosion on its sets because it serves it with utility (would you call gen IV Azelf 'built around explosion' for example?)