CAP 7 CAP 7 - Concept Assessment

Status
Not open for further replies.

Magmortified

<b>CAP 8 Playtesting Expert</b>
is a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Our concept here:

Beej said:
Name: Ultimate Scout
Description: A Pokemon that is very capable of forcing the opponent to reveal vital information about their team members and their moves using various techniques.
Click to expand...

This is intended to be a short thread for the purpose of discussing how to move forward with the concept. Nothing "definitive" will come as a result of this; it's only a little time to catch our breath and to look at the concept (and how it might accomplish its goal) in-depth.

Please keep discussion relevant as to the concept. No polljumping.
 
If it's able to force the opponent into revealing information, it should either be able to kill the pokemon, or wall the pokemon. I'd say this concept makes for either something pretty defensive, or something pretty offensive. This concept could go either way.

There are types of moves in scouting that are either offensive or defensive.

U-turn is an example of something in scouting that is offensive. Protect, Roar, etc. are examples of defensive forms of scouting. Heck, even baton pass is a form of scouting. It's basically a U-turn without attacking the opponent. Abilities such as Frisk also reveal vital information about the foe's item.

This concept is pretty diverse for such a concept that involves forcing switches, and I'd say we have a good amount of stuff to work with.

Whichever way this scouter pokemon goes,whether it be offensive or defensive, this will promote a more offensive metagame, due to the ability to create more opportunities for sweeps.
 
What is a scout? Well, basically what a scout does is through various moves/abilities, it forces switches in an effort to reveal as much of the opponent's team as possible, then sacrificing itself once its job is done in order to open up a possible late-game sweep when the opponent's team is sufficently crippled. This is basically like a lure: Mixed Dragonite luring in steels and hitting them with Fire Blast and Superpower, slamming Bulky Waters with Draco Meteor in an effort to weaken them so something like Salamence can sweep later. A scout doesn't have to be a lure, but the most effective scouts are the ones that can fight back.
 
tennisace said:
What is a scout? Well, basically what a scout does is through various moves/abilities, it forces switches in an effort to reveal as much of the opponent's team as possible, then sacrificing itself once its job is done in order to open up a possible late-game sweep when the opponent's team is sufficently crippled. This is basically like a lure: Mixed Dragonite luring in steels and hitting them with Fire Blast and Superpower, slamming Bulky Waters with Draco Meteor in an effort to weaken them so something like Salamence can sweep later. A scout doesn't have to be a lure, but the most effective scouts are the ones that can fight back.
Click to expand...

I like this definition of a scout the most at the moment. It forces switches to reveal teams and so you can discover the gaps or threats that lie within. Once you have this information, the element of surprise is still on your side as you can now set up a late game sweep while just taking out one or two Pokemon. For this Pokemon to be an effective scout it would need something along these lines:

  • U-turn / Roar / Whirlwind (something along this)
  • To be an effective lure, as tennisace had already mentioned, it must have some offensive capabilites (pretty good offensive stats to rack up some damage)
  • Should be able to take a hit or so (average defenses, or average offense and pretty good defenses)
  • To be an effective "lure" if we decide to go that route, we should make it adapted to be able to hit from both sides of the spectrum or take hits from both sides of the spectrum.

The opinion of a scout may vary from person to person, though we should decide on what a scout actually is, and the many directions this can go in.
 
Wow... so much we can do with a scout. I mean, from what I've seen... a scout's job is pretty much to reveal the opponent's hand.

Something I thought of while I voted for Ultimate Scout was Yanmega. The set I've seen a lot uses Protect (this allows you to peek at an incoming move) or Hypnosis (which could knock something out, forcing a switch, meaning you'll reveal one of your opponent's Pokemon before they see yours).

After I saw tennisace's post though... I kinda agree with him on the fact that a great scout can still fight back (Yanmega's great Special Attack for instance).

I'm really going to keep an eye on this CAP... there's just so much flexibility with this one.
 
I think we should generally try to give our Scout the most oppurtunities to do some scouting, in addition to its ability to do its job.

Basically, this means that, to some level, our Scout should be able to switch in in addition to forcing the opponent to switch out. Whether this is up to some workable defensive stats, resistances or so on is up to the polls... but I think we should give ourselves a few options in being able to come in.

I'm agreeing with the sentiment that we should make this thing offensive enough to force a switch also. So I think this'd call for some Speed and general offensive capability. On the other hand, I also think that we should try to keep away from making this thing "too good" at offense. We want this to be a scout for a sweeper - not a sweeper on its own. I'm not saying we shouldn't give this thing the oppurtunity to take some stuff out, but we should do it more reservedly; such as excellent type coverage, but rather modest Attack/Special Attack.

And, of course, we should make use of the Scout movepool. U-Turn, Protect, etc. The best of these on the offensive end is U-Turn. But depending on how bulky we make this (I'm hoping we shy away from that, considering we've got plenty enough in the way of defense in CAP), it could make good use of Protect, Roar, and such.

tl;dr: We should give this thing the means to switch in. The power to cause some damage, but perhaps not enough to sweep on its own. And, yes, all the moves a Scout would use (U-Turn, Protect, Roar, Yawn, and so on).

There are also certain abilities such as Frisk and Anticipation that could help (albeit, they only tell you about the Pokemon that's currently out. But it could be helpful).
 
Most of the times you need to scout are at the beginning of the match. It might be useful to have the Pokemon be able to force out some common leads. Then again I don't exactly know who are the most common leads; Fidget is definitely one, maybe Tyranitar, Strategem, and Azelf are also leads that come to mind, but really I think of Fidget.
 
Let's not forget that there are lots of other moves that will cause certain switches that don't have the same problems that roar and whirlwind have (negative priority). Stuff like Charm, Metal Sound, Tickle, Fake tears, etc, etc. are all effective at crippling a foe to the point he has no choice but to switch out. If he doesn't, he will most likely be hitting with severely weakened moves, meaning you get precious move info as well while not being killed.

I also agree that the offensive stats shouldn't actually place it in sweeper range of it's own. I think speed should be the highest emphasis, followed by actually being able to survive some hits and annoy through said moves and more rather than threatening a pokemon to kill it if he stays in (which is what a sweeper should be doing, not a scout). So I would actually prefer a more bulky and more annoying scout rather than a semi sweeper on it's own. A scout will make the metagame more offensive anyway, let's not make it even more offensive.
 
Plus said:
Also, having excellent typing isn't everything. You also need the defenses to back it up. Take Sableye, for example, who has no weaknesses. (this is also what i think you were trying to say.) It still can't take a hit, due to horrible defenses. Having excellent typing is only something beneficial to the main point I think you are trying to portray, which is the ability to take a hit.
Click to expand...

It should have a bunch of Key resistances, like Lucario. It has crap defenses but in a pinch can switch in on the odd Outrage or Stone Edge.
 
I think it should also be pretty neutral or resistant to Stealth Rock through typing, meaning scout doesn't have to be a lead to function well and can come in more than once to perform it's job.
 
It should have a bunch of Key resistances, like Lucario. It has crap defenses but in a pinch can switch in on the odd Outrage or Stone Edge.
Click to expand...
Sableye has no weaknesses, but lacks the important resistances steel types usually pack, such as dragon and rock. It also lacks the ability to do much at all in the OU metagame, which Lucario can. Sweeping.

As long as the scout has the ability to take a hit from important things, which can be accomplished by a decent amount of ways, it should be fine. Important resistances are an easy way to go about this.

Also, I don't think even I'd switch my lucario in on an outrage. The three main outrage users in OU (Kingdra, Flygon, Mence) all hit pretty hard, and can be 2hko'd by any of them.

Here are some calcs.

This one is for a Flygon that hits 328 attack with no LO/Choice items with outrage, as lucario as the defending pokemon.

328 Atk vs 158 Def & 282 HP (120 Base Power): 134 - 158 (47.52% - 56.03%)

That's a 78.9% chance for a 2hko. With Life Orb/Choice Band, that's a guaranteed 2hko.

The next one is a Kingdra Outrage, who has 95 base attack. It hits 317 attack with adamant 252.

317 Atk vs 158 Def & 282 HP (120 Base Power): 129 - 153 (45.74% - 54.26%)

That's a 41.95% chance of 2hkoing, which is something i wouldn't consider switching into.

I'll also point out the obvious. It's a 100% chance of 2HKOing if there is stealth rock up. You'd also have to run +Speed natures to outspeed any of them.

Typing IS very helpful, don't get me wrong. However, it isn't everything. Resistances are a subset of the ability to take a hit, which is ultimately what we are aiming for regarding the defenses of this scout.
 
JimBob said:
Most of the times you need to scout are at the beginning of the match. It might be useful to have the Pokemon be able to force out some common leads. Then again I don't exactly know who are the most common leads; Fidget is definitely one, maybe Tyranitar, Strategem, and Azelf are also leads that come to mind, but really I think of Fidget.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure we can look up the statistics somewhere on Smogon or somebody could post this information once they find it when we talk about what type(s) it should be.
 
bpblu said:
I'm pretty sure we can look up the statistics somewhere on Smogon or somebody could post this information once they find it when we talk about what type(s) it should be.
Click to expand...

Doug is getting usages stats for January now, they should be ready within a few days.
 
Yllnath said:
I think it should also be pretty neutral or resistant to Stealth Rock through typing, meaning scout doesn't have to be a lead to function well and can come in more than once to perform it's job.
Click to expand...
Agreed, SR weakness would be a big problem if its going to be switching much.

Anyway a rare form of scouting that may be nice to explore is Frisk. This ability lets you know what held item the Pokemon you switch into is holding, however the existing carriers of this ability don't have the defences to switch into those Pokemon that you most want to know about (Mence and the like). It also has the problem that you have to switch into each Poke that you want info on. However the idea of an ability that reveals something about an opposing Pokemon (it could be several bits of info, ability choice, item, strongest move, these are all possibilitys) on switches (yours, or even your opponents) is worth considering if we are aiming for the "Ultimate Scout".
 
I'd like to mention that Anticipation and Forewarn are both traits that fit a scouting Pokemon quite well, and really could use some more attention in the OU metagame beyond "hey Jynx just told me this Metagross has Meteor Mash!". I think we need more of these traits, too - for example, one that checks if the opponent has a status inducing move. I know I'd love to be told if the Blissey that switches in has Toxic/Thunder Wave or if I'm free to send in my Infernape/Lucario.

EDIT: Frisk works as well. Which reminds me that Fake Out is also an excellent scouting move, since it checks for Leftovers on an opponent that stays in on you.
 
The most important aspect our scout needs is the ability to switch out easily and to force others to switch out as well.

That being said, I think the entry hazards should be top priority to avoid/lower effectiveness. This means resistance or immunity to stealth rock, spikes, and toxic spikes (perhaps even a poison typing?)

Pursuit is also a threat to switching out, so a resistance or ability to deal with that could be beneficial as well. The biggest user of pursuit to my knowledge are tyranitar, scizor, and metagross. Maybe we could either give this thing threats to the major pursuiters of the metagame in order to make them switch out?

Speed should be the most important stat IMO. Jolteon's fast baton pass deserves a mention as a good scouting example.
 
There are many things a scout in OU should have. High speed is almost a must. The movepool is also another one. Key restiances/immunities are also vital. The abilities that we have now are entirly luck dependant (Forewarn/Anticipation). We should venture down the route of a new abilltiy, I we decide one is needed. Others have said this stuff, but it is true. A new possibility is that we could allow it to check a few common threats that might switch in/are of no purpose scouting. And finally, we should add a few moves that allow it to become more of a team player (i.e. stealth rock, aromatherepy, encore, etc.).
 
Let's be careful about poll jumping in this thread. The OP established that we should be discussing "how to move forward" with this concept, and so we will be more lenient about poll-jumping. However, please try to tread carefully, as poll jumping is still unacceptable in certain cases, such as stating something along the lines of "let's make it a x/y type!" if you don't explain how it relates to the concept. Unfortunately, there is no set of guidelines for Concept Assessment discussion in the Process Guide, so I apologize if this is causing any of you confusion. We will try to get it added as soon as possible. Until then, please refer to darkie's [thread=49990]PR Thread[/thread], where the idea for this stage began.
 
I think a variation of Forewarn would be a good ability for the scout pokemon, something that can reveal an opponent's moves without being as useless as forewarn but also without being broken would be excellent in scouting pokemon that can use a lot of different sets (ie practically everything in DP).

However, that fulfills a different definition of scouting; scouting defensively to be better prepared for threats as opposed to scouting offensively to better prepare your sweepers.
 
I don't see why it needs to be that great at taking all sorts of moves or needs to be resisting Stealth Rock. I mean, a weakness to the rocks is pretty bad, but this guy doesn't need to be switching in and out the whole game. The main thing that we need is ability to force something out or reveal something about them. Once most or all of the team is revealed, its job is done, and it can just try to smash stuff, but if it dies, will it really matter that much after it has accomplished its purpose?
 
Here's another way to look at the concept of scouting - Which pokemon MOST REQUIRE scouting? Which pokemon present such a big threat, with such variety, that it is imperative that you scout them first?

For example, Mamoswine does not need to be scouted. The minute Mamo hits the field -- you know what it's probably going to do. Other pokemon are fairly predictable, but have some variety that might throw you off -- Heatran, for example. Still other pokemon have variety, but don't present an immediate threat, such that you need to send in a pokemon to scout it. Blissey, for example, has a variety of builds -- but it doesn't threaten to the point that you must scout it first.

Keep in mind that any pokemon with more than four standard moves, CAN BE scouted. My point is -- Which pokemon MUST be scouted first? Salamence is an example of a pokemon that really needs to be scouted.

If we know which pokemon really need to be scouted, then we can build our pokemon specifically to scout those threats -- if possible. I think this would be much more purposeful than building a pokemon that is a generic damage sponge with U-Turn.

I'm not sure if my idea holds water or not -- but it's a different way to frame the problem. I'd like us to "think outside of the box" on this, and not just build a scouting pokemon based on lessons learned from the currently available scouts -- which are walls for the most part.
 
I'm going to throw in the obvious lucario for doug's method. It can be hard to tell whether it's sdluke or specs

Maybe gengar? but most these days are just scarf or specs varieties- it's just the moveset that's hard to guess

What I like about this concept is that it is essentially taking out some of the guessing games in pokemon
 
My Opinon: Lets see, a scout should be a pokemon with either alot of resistances/immunties, high defenses or high speed, in order to properly see and switch to another pokemon.

PapaCAP: Forwarn would be a good ability, but the problem with it is that it shows that the enemy has a move that is super-effective against the pokemon, meaning if it had multiple weaknesses, it wouldn't be clear what type it was.
 
Doug brought up a really good point. I don't think that a damage sponge build is the way to go with this. Remember that Flygon is one of the most commonly used scouting Pokemon and it has very average defensive stats. What it does boast is good resists and two immunities to quite common offensive types, Electric and Ground.

One thing I mentioned in my explanation is that having many resists/immunities to attacks commonly backed up by choice items makes for a very good scout, as those allow it free turns to use moves like U-Turn, Roar, Yawn, Substitute, etc. Examples of these kinds of attacks are CBTar Stone Edge/Crunch, Salamence Outrage, Earthquake in general, Fire Blast from Heatran and Scizor's Bullet Punch. Now obviously we can't resist/be immune to everything, because that's just ridiculous. But I think that it's a good idea that we consider this when deciding the typing.
 
I agree with Doug. What's the point of creating an "ultimate scout" if it gets annihilated by Mence, Luke, or any other poke that need scouting?

List of OU pokemon that may require scouting.

Flygon - Runs both offensive and defensive sets.
Infernape - Can run physical, special, or mixed.
Jirachi - Flat 100's and a large movepool means this can run offensive, defensive, or support.
Jolteon - Can run offense or support.
Latias - Can run Bulky/Offensive on the special side or support.
Salamence - Can run special, physical or mixed.
Vaporeon - Can run offensive, defensive, or support.
Celebi - See Jirachi.
Cresselia - See Latias.
Lucario - See Infernape.
Heatran - See Vaporeon

Examples of excluded pokes:
T-Tar: Always offensive on the physical side (aside from the very rare exceptions), normally only takes one or two turns to tell if it's running choice or DDance, time better spent on switching in a counter.

Gengar: Has a few options available to it, but almost always runs special sweeper with either hypnosis/LO or specs.

Bronzong: A large number of sets to use, though they all pretty reveal what set they are after the first turn. Screener, you'll see screens. Trick Room, you'll see trick room. Standard, hypnosis or gyroball. Rain Dance, uses rain dance. Trick will most likely use trick.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top