CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 12a - Attacking Moves Discussion

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cyberzero

is a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Our Pokemon so far:
Elevator Music said:
Name: Neglected Ability

Description: This pokemon will have an ability [or two] that is currently undervalued (but possibly very helpful) in the metagame but isn't used because the other pokemon with this ability don't have the stats or movepool to make it work.
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Type: Electric / Dragon
Style Bias: Somewhat Defensive
Build Bias: Mixed, possibly Special
Ability: Shield Dust/Static
Stats: 108 HP/60 Atk/118 Def/112 Sp Atk/70 Sp Def/80 Spe

An "Attacking Move" is a move that deals significant damage to an opponent. All other moves are considered "Non-Attacking Moves". As a general rule, any move that can be used under Taunt, is considered to be an Attacking Move. However, there are a few exceptional moves that deal a small amount of damage, but their primary battle purpose is based on a secondary move effect, and Are therefore considered Non-Attacking moves. For example, Rapid Spin and Knock Off are considered to be Non-Attacking Moves, even though they can be used under Taunt. The Topic Leader has sole discretion for interpreting which moves are considered Attacking or Non-Attacking Moves for a given pokemon.

All moves will be categorized as Competitive, Non-Competitive, or Required.
  • Competitive moves are moves that are viable for use in battle on a given pokemon. This categorization is applicable depending on the pokemon. Sometimes a move will be competitive on one pokemon and non-competitive for another.
  • Required moves are moves that must be included in the final movepool, and are generally not up for discussion. A list of commonly Required moves can be found in X-Act's movepool guide.
The Topic Leader will post a list of moves in the OP of the thread. This list will serve as a single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion. The first list of moves should be compiled by the Topic Leader prior to opening the thread, and will serve as the initial list of moves to begin discussion.

The list should contain all moves that are considered Competitive for the pokemon being created. The Topic Leader has final say for determining whether a move is Competitive, Non-Competitive, or Required. The TL should use these lists for moves that are generally considered Competitive moves.

The list of moves will be separated into three sections indicating the "status" of the move in the current discussion -- Allowed, Disallowed, Controversial, or Pending.
  • Allowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to be allowed in the pokemon's final movepool
  • Disallowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to not be allowed in the pokemon's final movepool
  • Controversial - Moves that did not reach general community consensus, and will require a specific vote.
  • Pending - Moves that have not received enough support or opposition to determine whether they are Allowed, Disallowed, or Controversial
The community should make posts arguing for moves to be Allowed or Disallowed. The Topic Leader should recategorize moves as the discussion progresses.

At the conclusion of the Movepool Discussion, the Topic Leader will make a final update to the OP move list and the thread will be locked.

Any Controversial Moves will proceed to be voted on in a Move Poll. Any Controversial moves that receive a sufficient majority of votes, will be added to the Allowed moves list.

Move Discussion Posting Rules
(These should be posted in the OP)
  • The list of moves in this post will serve as the single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion.
  • Post arguments for moves to be Allowed or Disallowed from the pokemon's final movepool. All posts should be presented with reasoning.
  • Posting lists of moves is strictly prohibited. Do not copy the TL's list, and then add "Yes/No" or a similarly worthless comment, beside each one. Posts that contain lists of moves will be deleted, even if the post contains additional reasoning and content.
  • The Topic Leader will update the list continuously throughout the discussion, using recent posts to determine changes to the move list. Moves may have a fluctuating status as the community debates for or against the move in response to changes in the OP.
  • Posts should be based on the current state of the list in the OP. It is the responsibility of each member to check the OP before making any post in the thread. Posts that demonstrate lack of familiarity with the current OP will be deleted.
  • The Topic Leader is the sole arbiter for determining "general community consensus". The TL may ignore arguments for or against certain moves, if they feel the argument is not presented with sufficient evidence or reasoning. Do not assume that the existence of a few dissenting posts will ensure that a move will be categorized as Controversial.
  • All moves that are considered Competitive for this pokemon are included in the list in the OP. Non-Competitive moves should not be discussed in this thread, unless you feel they are miscategorized and should be considered Competitive (see next rule).
  • If you disagree with the TL's categorization of a move as Competitive or Non-Competitive, you can post arguments in this thread, but reasoning must be supplied.

Attacking Moves:

Allowed:
Zap Cannon
Discharge
Dragonbreath
Thunderbolt
Dragon Pulse
Charge Beam
Aqua Tail
Draco Meteor
Volt Tackle
AncientPower
Hyper Beam
Signal Beam
Shadow Ball
Outrage
Mist Ball
Luster Purge
Bug Buzz

Controversial:
Fire Blast
Flamethrower
Lava Plume
Heat Wave
Overheat
Hydro Pump
Surf
Focus Punch
Super Power
Earthquake
Vacuum Wave

Unallowed:
Aura Sphere
Focus Blast
Earth Power
Close Combat
Hammer Arm
Cross Chop
Grass Knot
Spacial Rend
Selfdestruct
Explosion
 
Draco Meteor – This is the first move to pop into my head as one that would be important to vote on, unless universally agreed upon in the discussion thread.
 
Volt Tackle?

While this thing will likely not be physical, a bulky pokemon could benefit from it.
 
The CAP should have Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse etc. which are easy stabs

But for moves that could be used:
Flamethrower, fireblast, Hydropump. ( I say only gets one of these, either fire or water but not both.
 
Hmm, i don't think there are any moves for unallowed. All the moves are perfectly fine for me to be in his movepool.

Anyway, i would like to propose Focus Punch and Superpower to the allowed list. It gives him a chance against Blissey but his low base Atk will make sure it wont hinder his other counters.
 
Moves that I think should be allowed:

Draco Meteor and/or Dragon Pulse: Definetly needed for the good STAB.
Thunderbolt: 2ndary STAB.
Dragon Claw: Probably the only physical Dragon STAB it should get.
Earth Power: Heatrans won't be able to get in a free switch in.
Fire Blast/Hydro Pump: CAP 8 doesn't need both, so one should be sufficient. Fire Blast gives a lot more coverage than Hydro Pump when combined with Dragon and Electric. But Hydro Pump would be better so that CAP 8 doesn't dominate the CAP environment.
Flame Thrower/Surf: Same as Fire Blast/Hydro Pump. If we use Fire Blast than Flame Thrower should be the choice, so CAP 8 doesn't dominate.
Discharge: Like Thunderbolt, but would provide for a good defensive fighter. Seeing the 30% paralysis rate and the defensive stats, this seems very viable.
Thunder Fang/Thunder Punch: This could be like the 2ndary physical Electric STAB that CAP 8 should get. This would allow for a mixed sweeper set, but it wouldn't overpower the set.

As of right now, I can see CAP 8 turning into the Swampert or Latias of CAP. Both are bulky enough to take hits and can use a variety of powerful moves. The former can go CB, mixed, and Specs. However the latter, with higher special attack, would be a better Specs user.
 
the_artic_one said:
I don't think volt tackle is competitive on this, recoil moves don't work well on slow pokemon and it only has 60 atk.
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It's not really slow. Arcanine uses Flare Blitz perfectly fine. Volt Tackle is a decent option on Choice Band sets only though, maybe even Choice Scarf.
 
In terms of STAB attacks, I'd like to throw Thunder, Thunderbolt, Discharge, Charge Beam, Volt Tackle, Outrage, Draco Meteor, and Dragon Pulse in right away. Thunder and Thunderbolt are excellent STAB moves that every electric pokemon has. Discharge would combine well with Static to help paralyze special attackers while doing damage (if TWave is undesirable). Charge Beam is good on any special-attacking pokemon that has longevity in battle and can set up sweeps. Outrage and Volt Tackle won't see that much use, but have a place on DD or CB "gimmick" sets. Draco Meteor and Dragon Pulse should both be available if the player wants CAP to stay in longer vs. hit hard and run. CAP could also recharge its SpA (pun intended) with Charge Beam after a Draco Meteor, which would be an interesting strategy.

As a dragon-type, I think it should have access to the attacking moves of its resisted types, notably Flamethrower and Surf. I'm putting grass attacks in disallowed, only because I don't see them vibing with the electric typing. I'm also putting the higher-powered elemental attacks like Fire Blast and Hydro Pump in disallowed because dragon is its secondary type and, thus, shouldn't have access to those higher-powered elemental moves (like Latias), in my opinion.

I'll also throw in Return/Frustration since everyone gets those.

I agree that it should get Focus Punch, as it's a great way to keep Blissey from countering you outright, like Gengar's SubPunch set.

In terms of non-STAB attacks, I'd like to see Earth Power for non-overpowered coverage, Hyper Beam because it's in the similar vein as Return/Frustration, and Seismic Toss because, with this pokemon's staying power, it can pull it off.
 
Why does it need Seismic Toss? It has much better options as most of it's attacks would always do more than 25-35% which is around Seismic Toss damage. It's not needed. Blissey has it because it's attacking stats are crap, hence it uses it a lot. CAP doesn't have crap attacking stats, 112 base SpA? That's reasonable. Base 60 Atk is decent enough to do at least more than 25%.
 
Fuzznip said:
Moves
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I'm not quoting that whole list, but I think you're pretty much on-target there. I can't see anything I disagree with, and furthermore, it looks like everyone else so far is on pretty much the same page. I'd like to see Fire Blast and Hydro Pump together on it - Salamence has them and it's not broken. I think if CAP8 has those, Volt Tackle, Outrage, etc., it fits the 'mixed' part of the plan much better and gives it some versatility when it comes to sweeping or walling.
 
dragon pulse, thunderbolt, draco meteor, discharge and thunder. These should be unconditional, its dragon electric, obviously these are going in.

MY two moves I would love to see on this guy are surf and earth power. Judging by the sprite that is winning it looks bulky, big and fat. VEry similar to snorlax another surfing fatty. Another reason is a lot of dragons that are not water can learn surf, these include: latios, dragonite, rayquaza, and garchomp. EArth power would be a good non STAB type coverage move for steel and the like, earth power gets my vote.
 
^Don't use art as reasoning for moves (it doesn't help that you don't even know which one we're using -_-;).

Just want to point out that if it's a TM and it gets STAB, it's going to have it. Debating or suggesting those is kind of pointless, cyber can look at the TM list and slap them on there. Return/Frustration and Hyper Beam and stuff are givens also. Read X-Act's movepool guide to know what is guaranteed to be on this thing.

Superpower would be nice as well as Volt Tackle (off 60 attack it's pretty mellow).

I think the real debate is water vs. fire moves as brought up by Deck Knight in the counters thread.
 
dragon pulse, thunderbolt, draco meteor, discharge and thunder
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Earth Power, Earthquake, Revenge

This is what i like to see. I think its a bad idea to give it a perfect movepool and i think this is an interesting and unique movepool. Not including moves of water or fire purposefully. I'm not really gonna bother talking about physical moves because i feel they are largely useless to talk about other than Earthquake or Revenge for the sole purpouse of taking on Tyranitar who i think should be able to be hit back on. In a similar way to Mixpert but reversed.
 
Originally Posted by Fat Fuzznip
Why does it need Seismic Toss?
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It doesn't need it. It should have it, though, as more than half of all pokemon can learn it, kind of like Return/Frustration. ST does guaranteed damage through Reflect and Light Screen and Defensive stat-uppers and would fare better when the opponent switches out of his weakened Magnezone to his Heatran or as you use Flamethrower or his Gyarados into his Electivire as you T-Bolt. It's not useless, but I'm still not pretending like it'll be used all that much. It should have it, though, just to be there.

Originally Posted by Fat Gothic Togekiss
While thinking about flavor is nice and all shouldn't there be some kind of competitive reason(es) onto why you want a series of moves banned from CAP8?
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Alright, you caught me. I was too lazy to fully explain myself. As CAP 8 is pretty much threatened by anything running EQ, notably ground types and Tyranitar, I think that the mere presence of Grass Knot in this thing's movepool will keep people from switching them in a lot of the time and severely limit the list of reliable counters/checks. Also, I already put Surf (which is stronger than Energy Ball) on my list to have the same effect without rendering Swampert useless and not taking advantage of the fact that most EQ users are heavy as hell and most often weak to grass. I think if CAP 8 had Grass Knot, it would create a world of only Dragon counters and even more Latias than we see now.
 
In Alphabetical order
Allowed
Charge Beam- a decent method of raising SpAtk without taking up a move slot

Discharge- 30% para and decent damage

Draco Meteor- Defensive dragon needs some powerful moves. Also a tutor that all dragons get

Dragon Claw- A decent enough substitute to avoid being locked into Outrage on mixed sets

Dragon Pulse- an asset to any CM set that could arise. Also prevents it from needing to switch out every 2 turns.

Earthquake- a pretty common move and it's only way of dealing with some counters. Non-STAB and a low Atk keep it from being over powered.

Fire Blast/ Flamethrower- most dragons have it, and there are a good number of steels running around. Could make it a good Jirachi counter.

Focus Punch- Common move that would keep it from being walled by Blissey

Ice Beam- Boltbeam combo is common

Mist Ball- I know, odd choice, but 50% chance to lower SpAtk gives it some good staying power.

Outrage- Standard Dragon move, everyone gets it, and even with maxed out attack it's not getting much of anywhere behind that Atk stat.

Seismic Toss- Wallish pokemon with awful Atk meet Seismic Toss. Great for a possible Mono-Attack set and stall sets.

Thunderbolt- What Electric Pokemon doesn't have it?

Volt Tackle- The best that CAP8 can possibly get for a mixed attacking set.
 
First, does anyone DISAGREE with Thunder, Thunderbolt, Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse, Discharge, etc.? If not, maybe we should get right to the inevitable Surf/Flamethrower/Hydro Pump/Fire Blast debate.
 
pikpikcarrotmon said:
First, does anyone DISAGREE with Thunder, Thunderbolt, Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse, Discharge, etc.? If not, maybe we should get right to the inevitable Surf/Flamethrower/Hydro Pump/Fire Blast debate.
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Every one seems to agree with Surf/Flamethrower/Hydro Pump/Fire Blast being allowed too for now.

Don't see how a how those moves would make this CAP broken.
 
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