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CAP 9 CAP 9 - Concept Assessment

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admiral_korski said:
Imagine, for an instant (trying not to poll jump, this is just one of infinity possible outcomes):

CaP9 @ Choice Scarf
Type: Dark/Fighting
Ability: Klutz
Stats: high Atk, Spe, moderate-good Defenses, about zero SpA
Nature/EVs: +Spe Nature, max Atk + Spe

Pursuit
Close Combat
Trick
Taunt (or new Taunt-like field effect move)/ Rapid Spin/ Aromatherapy

Scenario: Common Trickster comes in, goes for the Trick. You send in CaP9 and they trade Scarves, so they have to switch or whatever. You get the easy Pursuit (hits most common Tricksters SE) AND can Trick your own Scarf away from there and otherwise shuffle items around the opposing team without caring what they are. Fourth move helps with another class of secondary moves you want to "stop."

How does this pokemon stop Trick? That part should be obvious. How does it stop other status? Speedy Taunts, Aromatherapy, ability to Trick Scarf ANYTIME. Rapid Spin could stop entry hazards (what ghost will want to switch-in here besides Scarf Gengar with the risky Focus Blast?), or Aromatherapy could heal CaP9 and its teammates from status (whichever benefits your team more), all the while being a strong physical threat.

Basically what I'm trying to say is Klutz is a great ability to have on a "Stop the Secondary" pokemon.
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You forgot that if the pokemon being Pursuited switches, you can change moves. So you can forgo Klutz.
 
I agree that if this gets Poison Heal, Guts, Marvel Scale or Quick Feet that countering status is much more easier and simpler. It uncovers a game mechanic that could assuredly stop what your opponent is trying to do. Aromatherapy/Heal Bell and Status immunization abilities aren't viable in conjunction with Guts and the like. It would not help the cause if you deliberately Poison yourself then have yourself use Aromatherapy.

And any Pokemon can hold mail, not just CAP9, although its not a solid tactic. It is also possible to avoid Trick entirely just by dominating the Tricker. Taunt completely rules at stopping secondary moves, but it can't stop it without becoming an abuser itself.

Abilities are so very important, most of the top OU Pokemon would be nothing without them. I guess that's what is making this thread an ability discussion.
 
I don't understand what the purpose of this thread is if we can't analyze abilities. How can we figure out how best to utilize this concept if we have to ignore one of its most important characteristics?
 
PurpurealSunshine said:
I don't understand what the purpose of this thread is if we can't analyze abilities. How can we figure out how best to utilize this concept if we have to ignore one of its most important characteristics?
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I understand that the ability plays an enormous role in the success of this CAP, but this thread is not being held as a discussion thread for abilities, more-so the concept itself. We can do this by answering the questions Plus has graciously provided us that no one seems to be doing anymore:

Here's what I want discussed:
  • What are common secondary moves in today's metagame?
  • What does it mean to "Stop the Secondary"?
  • What are the possibilities of this CAP? (Try not to poll jump too much here)
  • How are immunities used in the current metagame? How can we apply that knowledge to this project?
  • What do we gain from an immunity pokemon?
Click to expand...
 
Thank you Fuzznip for being there when I was a bit busy with my work ^^

So yeah. I still don't think some of you guys get it when I asked you to cut the ability stuff. You'll get your chance to speak later.

Only 1 1/2 hours left, and if you can't talk about this concept without going into ability, you're going way too in depth with the concept. We have examples of good posts in this thread.

Also, please try not to let bad posts rile up everyone, starting a huge flurry of posts regarding abilities. Just let them die, and continue on with what needs to be discussed. I can't heavily watch over this thread with the mods for the whole day.
 
X-Act said:
An interesting way to stop the effects then is to have an 'perma-Taunt' ability. And obviously it's not broken; people can just choose to attack the Pokemon.
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Ha, this made me think of a concept I was toying with.

The "death duel" where all Pokemon are encouraged to only use damaging moves while on the field.


That could be a very neat way to stop the secondary, if it's refined for our purposes.
 
Can I just sum up what my idea of the direction this CaP takes would be?

In my opinion, as partially already stated, the ideal "Secondary Stopper" would be able to directly counter at least 3 of the Top 5 secondary moves/categories (Trick, [Sleep, Paralysis, Burn, Poison], Entry Hazards, Leech Seed, Taunt) - either by immunity or taking advantage of the move - and indirectly (scaring off the secondary user, the move not changing the user's strategy, etc.) countering at least 2 others, though not necessarily from the major 5 in the case of indirect. Ideally, CAP9 would have 2 or 3 key immunities - either by typing or ability - that would allow it to easily switch in and punish the secondary user with powerful offense....

Sorry if this is stating the obvious, but I wanted to state my views, so there they are.
 
Sorry, guys. I had an idea regarding Klutz and didn't want to lose it. No more! Here's my take on these questions for discussion:
  • What are common secondary moves in today's metagame?
In order of low-risk-high-reward play style: Stealth Rock, Trick, self-healing, T-Wave, Hypnosis/Sleep Powder (and Spore), Toxic, WoW, Toxic Spikes, Spikes
  • What does it mean to "Stop the Secondary"?
To create a presence in OU that would make people think twice before throwing around secondary moves at will (or at least use them in non-predictable/original ways). If utilized correctly and with good prediction, this pokemon will make users of secondary moves regret using them via immunity => free turn or giving the opponent an advantage (secondary move-benefitted ability/moves). When constructing teams that utilize secondary moves, a player must have a solid way of countering this particular pokemon in order to perform well.
  • What are the possibilities of this CAP? (Try not to poll jump too much here)
This CaP could go offense or support. I don't see it being much of a wall, though, due to the fact that it will be largely countering defensive/support pokemon. In my opinion, an offensive pokemon will fit this role best, as being able to threaten a large spectrum of pokemon will allow it to get in key moves required to perform its role. Not that it should have paper defenses, because it may end up shifting back and forth from offense to support depending on its team. Either way, I personally believe high (really high) speed will be required to properly fulfill its role on the team.
  • How are immunities used in the current metagame? How can we apply that knowledge to this project?
Immunities are mostly used for free (damage-less) switch-ins and hardly anything else. Ground pokemon can switch into an obvious T-Wave, Flying/Levitating pokemon into obvious Earthquakes, Steel-Types can take a Toxic, Heatran into obvious Fire attacks and gain an immediate advantage, etc., as many times the pokemon switched-in has a type advantage over the other. In this CaP, we should try to expand the advantages of immunities to include more than just a free switch-in, to hopefully turn immunities into an active strategy.
  • What do we gain from an immunity pokemon?
In the current metagame, secondary attacks like Trick, entry hazards, status attacks, move restricting attacks, etc. are a low-risk-high-reward group of moves. There isn't much in the metagame that can take these on, or at least make players strategize more when constructing teams that include them. An immunity pokemon will most likely shift the metagame to one that raises the risk of using these secondary moves.
 
From the Trick discussion so far, it seems like it would be far too restrictive to block it in terms of ability. Given that the most commonly Tricked items are Choice items, why not just give it decent offensive stats so it doesn't mind being given those and be done with it? This would free up ability/typing/movepool to deal with the other statuses.

EDIT: I agree with Apocalypse B-C's formulation.
 
I don't really understand the whole "omg stop Trick" argument. Why is Trick being so focused? It just seems convenient for us to say "oh yeah and we just throw this on and bam, another secondary stopped". I really think the focus should be more a "presence" than a hard stop.

It should make your opponent thing "hmm, do I do <secondary move>? What if CAP9 switches in? I'll be in trouble". Hard countering everything is one way, but really constricts what we can do here.

Presence and unpredictability can do this and are much more flexible.

Thoughts?
 
Gyarados has great offensive stats, yet it typically hates Scarf. Same story with Zapdos, but to a lesser extent. Good offensive stats aren't really a solution to "stopping" Trick. At best, it could make Trick slightly backfire (of which I could give numerous examples in the current metagame).

Originally Posted by Fat familyguyman
I really think the focus should be more a "presence" than a hard stop.

It should make your opponent thing "hmm, do I do <secondary move>? What if CAP9 switches in? I'll be in trouble". Hard countering everything is one way, but really constricts what we can do here.
Click to expand...

That's basically how I see this CaP working out, but that doesn't mean Trick isn't one of the most easily abused moves in the metagame right now. Literally no thought or concern has to go into Tricking a Scarf right now, and that should be a priority. Then T-Wave. Then entry hazards. Then self-healing. And on. And on.
 
Nice finish, guys. I'm going to put up a main typing discussion thread now, and I will put up a typing poll at 5:00 EST.
 
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