There's always the option of removing Sleep Talk from its movepool. Just saying.
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CAP Updates: Arghonaut Discussion (Complete)
- Thread starter DarkSlay
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Can be a good idea, my first worry was to let you know the potential of this ability
I understand. I was just proposing a solution that prevents that. Another option would be removing Roar instead, but I don't know if making Argo unable to phaze is a good idea.
While this is a legitimate concern (I've thought about this as well), making the set illegal can be easy to work around. We could make it illegal with Sleep Talk or phazing moves, like Bulk Up + Recover is illegal now.
Comatose is a cool ability for Arghonaut given how much it despises burns and toxic, and what I like about it is that it gets revealed on switch-in, so there's no "Unaware vs Comatose" games except at team preview. It's certainly a powerful ability to have, but I can't see it being too broken, even with reliable recovery.
As for other abilities, I'll put my support behind Technician and Iron Barbs. The others I'm not too sold on, with similar reasoning as everyone else. While Sap Sipper would definitely work for what we want Argho to do (decentralize/check some top threats), I think the other abilities do it better without just slapping an immunity on. I don't necessarily hate Sap Sipper, but I like the more creative solutions.
Speaking of Bulk Up + Recover, we're unlocking that right? With Unaware it's not so great, but with Comatose it might be pretty cool!
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For the record, Bulk Up + Recover is illegal due to egg move illegalities in gen 4. Such illegalities no longer exist, so simply giving it a gen 7 movepool will remove that one. Sleep Talk and Roar on the other hand, are both TM moves. There is no real way to make either allowed but illegal with a specific ability (or each other) without making some really absurd and/or unrealistic changes.
Magearna can't learn Sleep Talk by TM for some reason, so removing it from Arghonaut as well wouldn't conflict with Nintendo's conventions.
I was going to bring up the threat of Comaphazing. Believe me snake_rattler, its alot more broken than it looks on paper, as thanks to Argh's great defensive typing and bulk + a resistance to common priority moves (Aqua Jet, Bullet Punch, Sucker Punch) allows it to be extremely hard to revengekill. Add hazards (potentially even Sticky Web) and teams are slowly withered down to the point where winning is impossible. There is a reason why Comaphazing is banned in EVERY OM its accessible in. Also, thanks to move mechanics, I do not think it is possible to just simply make moves incompatible like that, and that ses like too much work just to not let an ability be broken. I'd rather it gaining Refresh than that ability. Hard no to Comatose.
Reading my post again I see I was ambiguous about what I meant. Comaphazing is dumb and I don't want Arghonaut to do that lol. I was more talking about move illegalities; I hope it wouldn't be too much of a problem though Roar and Sleep Talk being TMs is an issue. Comatose is really cool otherwise, and it's kind of annoying that it with phazing is a problem.
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Regarding Comatose, I'd rather not mess around with moveset illegalities just to stop Arghonaut from abusing a dumb mechanic. Removing Arghonaut's phazing move isn't a good idea either as it unnecessarily nerfs the Unaware set, so I'm afraid I can't support this ability.
An interesting alternative for the Comatose crowd I'd like to bring up is Misty Surge (I believe this was mentioned in the PS room). It's not exactly the same as Comatose, but it does accomplish the main thing Comatose has going for it (status prevention) while also cushioning hits from Dragon-types like Mega Charizard-X. Arghonaut is still obviously no bulu/koko/lele switch-in, as all three of them hit Arghonaut with super effective STAB moves. However, simply being able to reset the three offense-boosting terrains to a defensively oriented terrain can still be of use when the Tapus are off the field. In this sense, Misty Surge could even be considered beneficial to Arghonaut's decentralizer concept. While Arghonaut doesn't suddenly hard counter three of the offensive Tapus, it has the ability to reset terrains if/when it gets a switch-in opportunity or if it needs to be sacked late-game.
An interesting alternative for the Comatose crowd I'd like to bring up is Misty Surge (I believe this was mentioned in the PS room). It's not exactly the same as Comatose, but it does accomplish the main thing Comatose has going for it (status prevention) while also cushioning hits from Dragon-types like Mega Charizard-X. Arghonaut is still obviously no bulu/koko/lele switch-in, as all three of them hit Arghonaut with super effective STAB moves. However, simply being able to reset the three offense-boosting terrains to a defensively oriented terrain can still be of use when the Tapus are off the field. In this sense, Misty Surge could even be considered beneficial to Arghonaut's decentralizer concept. While Arghonaut doesn't suddenly hard counter three of the offensive Tapus, it has the ability to reset terrains if/when it gets a switch-in opportunity or if it needs to be sacked late-game.
So many of you know already that I was complaining a lot today about Argho abilities. So umm, yeah, here's some new things that got a tiny bit of discussion based on my complaining on PS today.
Water Compaction: The current user of Water Compaction is plagued with being weak to Water. By having a water resistance, Arghonaut actually has some potential to make use of this ability. Currently, one of Arghonaut's few niches in the metagame is switching into Volkraken, and this ability potentially makes it even better at doing that. It could be argued that the defense boost will then let it utilize some support/utility moves more effectively. Because of the need to switch into a water move, this ability won't activate a ton and thus won't be OP.
Long Reach: This ability was discussed earlier in the thread but has been neglected since ability discussion started. Essentially, the draw is to avoid damaging effects from making contact. It's not a great ability but has no chance of overshadowing Unaware, and as DarkSlay wishes, we definitely don't want to be stronger than Unaware.
Misty Surge: Essentially this ability is an inferior comatose that cannot abuse sleep talk and is temporary, but it allows the status negation to be passed to teammates for a few turns. Earlier on, it seemed like we decided to increase Arghonaut's utility functions, and Misty Surge leaves room for supportive utility. Misty Surge does make us more similar to Tapu Fini, but our different STAB and our access to recovery allow us to play differently from Fini even if we have this ability. In some ways, it's making Comatose not broken and in other ways it's looking to address our direction by providing utility. Quite honestly I think Misty Terrain would see more usage than Unaware, but I think Iron Barbs would as well and I really am trying to provided alternatives to Iron Barbs. Ultimately, for what it does on Argho, I don't think Misty Surge is too OP. It's certainly nothing like Drizzle or Magic Bounce that is distractingly good.
All of this said, I really don't particularly like any new abilities. I just think the 3 listed above aren't OP or entirely useless. Water Compaction compliments what Arghonaut already does well at and Misty Surge helps increase our utility and avoid status without letting us be an illustrated balanced hackmons disaster.
EDIT: /me is sad that spark beat him in making a misty surge post but is thankful someone else was willing to like it enough to post it too.
Water Compaction: The current user of Water Compaction is plagued with being weak to Water. By having a water resistance, Arghonaut actually has some potential to make use of this ability. Currently, one of Arghonaut's few niches in the metagame is switching into Volkraken, and this ability potentially makes it even better at doing that. It could be argued that the defense boost will then let it utilize some support/utility moves more effectively. Because of the need to switch into a water move, this ability won't activate a ton and thus won't be OP.
Long Reach: This ability was discussed earlier in the thread but has been neglected since ability discussion started. Essentially, the draw is to avoid damaging effects from making contact. It's not a great ability but has no chance of overshadowing Unaware, and as DarkSlay wishes, we definitely don't want to be stronger than Unaware.
Misty Surge: Essentially this ability is an inferior comatose that cannot abuse sleep talk and is temporary, but it allows the status negation to be passed to teammates for a few turns. Earlier on, it seemed like we decided to increase Arghonaut's utility functions, and Misty Surge leaves room for supportive utility. Misty Surge does make us more similar to Tapu Fini, but our different STAB and our access to recovery allow us to play differently from Fini even if we have this ability. In some ways, it's making Comatose not broken and in other ways it's looking to address our direction by providing utility. Quite honestly I think Misty Terrain would see more usage than Unaware, but I think Iron Barbs would as well and I really am trying to provided alternatives to Iron Barbs. Ultimately, for what it does on Argho, I don't think Misty Surge is too OP. It's certainly nothing like Drizzle or Magic Bounce that is distractingly good.
All of this said, I really don't particularly like any new abilities. I just think the 3 listed above aren't OP or entirely useless. Water Compaction compliments what Arghonaut already does well at and Misty Surge helps increase our utility and avoid status without letting us be an illustrated balanced hackmons disaster.
EDIT: /me is sad that spark beat him in making a misty surge post but is thankful someone else was willing to like it enough to post it too.
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For abilities, the only options that seems like a good idea in any fashion are Water Compaction and Misty Surge.
Water Compaction allows Arhgo to be a lovely recipient of VoltTurners when facing frequent Water move users, such as Ash-Greninja. It can then counter with an attack, allowing it to have a half-decent niche again.
Misty Surge is like others have mentioned, a more balanced Comatose, which was denied for Comaphazing issues. Other than that and the fact that it has a limited amount of time, it has all of the benefits of Comatose I originally mentioned in my post, with reduced Dragon damage and Sleep and Confusion immunity.
Water Compaction allows Arhgo to be a lovely recipient of VoltTurners when facing frequent Water move users, such as Ash-Greninja. It can then counter with an attack, allowing it to have a half-decent niche again.
Misty Surge is like others have mentioned, a more balanced Comatose, which was denied for Comaphazing issues. Other than that and the fact that it has a limited amount of time, it has all of the benefits of Comatose I originally mentioned in my post, with reduced Dragon damage and Sleep and Confusion immunity.
Isn't the easy answer to Comatose's Sleep Talk shenanigans just to do a complex ban on Sleep Talk + Comatose for the CAP Metagame? Considering its precedent in other metagames it's a basic fix to an issue of Comatose Sleep Talk removing negative priority from those moves.
I say this only to level the playing field with Misty Terrain a bit, as I am one who mentioned it on PS. Misty Terrain is a very powerful support ability, and unlike Comatose which I see as competing but not overshadowing Unaware, Misty Terrain has huge potential to overshadow. One thing it does for example is let Argh take a shot at Tapu Lele with Aqua Jet. It might require a boosting item to get really effective damage, but its there.
Dragon Resistance + 5 turn Team Status Immunity + Overwrite Terrain is very powerful. I think Comatose with the stipulation against Sleep Talk solves the hesitations with it at their root.
I say this only to level the playing field with Misty Terrain a bit, as I am one who mentioned it on PS. Misty Terrain is a very powerful support ability, and unlike Comatose which I see as competing but not overshadowing Unaware, Misty Terrain has huge potential to overshadow. One thing it does for example is let Argh take a shot at Tapu Lele with Aqua Jet. It might require a boosting item to get really effective damage, but its there.
Dragon Resistance + 5 turn Team Status Immunity + Overwrite Terrain is very powerful. I think Comatose with the stipulation against Sleep Talk solves the hesitations with it at their root.
I prefer Comatose to Misty Surge, and you make a good point. Also, Unaware works on stall teams or stally offense. Unaware wouldn't be used as much to Misty Surge, but there are times where Unaware is better.
Still, Comatose for life.
The idea is that Argho summons mist from the ocean and stuff, like a ghost ship.
I personally like this solution the best. I wouldn't mind Misty Terrain, as it still achieves status immunity and it applies to teammates and has the nice dragon resistance, but it's temporary. Misty Terrain has my support, but I think Comatose is better because it applies to Arghonaut only.
Water Compaction is a neat idea. Arghonaut is a pretty sick Water-type switch-in (excluding Scald burns), as it can switch into Greninja-Ash and Volkraken really only fearing U-turn most of the time. Pretty solid, wouldn't mind it at all.
Long Reach slightly improves Ferrothorn match up, doesn't do much for Garchomp, and does nothing for Tomohawk. The chip damage is annoying, but I don't know why we'd ever want this ability given it's limited utility.
True, and we're not OU, and don't have a Council. Assuming Comatose Argh though we'd also be the only meta where Comatose Sleep Talk is something not combined with "Hackmons" or "Almost Any."
But as far as our meta, right now we don't have an authority for such issues established and if we wanted it established, it would be a moderator directive to do so. So ultimately it loops back to us, and tentatively since this is the first real internal issue we've had, I would make a proposal that if we can forsee unhealthy mechanics, we at least allow discussion on the basis if they do end up unhealthy we have options so as not to dampen discussion in the here and now.
I do think Scarf Comatose Argh is unsightly. Funny thing though... it's shut down by Tomohawk's Prankster Taunt (and, I suppose, Soundproof mons though if we added Circle Throw that would be similarly problematic.)
Note I'm not saying we must do any such thing, just that I think we shouldn't stop discussing Comatose because it has a weird interaction with Sleep Talk and phazing. I might think differently if Sleep Talk could select Focus Punch, but it can't so its just a matter of one extremely odd mechanic.
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I'm confused. If the mechanic is inevitable, why would we still talk about it if we don't have a way to solve it? Also, how could we form a CAP council? Is that what you are suggesting?
Arghonaut's concept is Decentralizer, and there is no better option available to it than to heavily punish contact moves. The reasons for this threefold.
The CAP Metagame is rife with U-turn
Arghonaut is a great switch-in to (Battle Bond) Greninja, Volkraken and Mega Scizor, and a passable switch into Pheromosa. All of these will U-turn if they see Arghonaut in team preview, and punishing them would do a lot to discourage U-turn spam, a common and very effective strategy.
Rapid Spin is common and easy in CAP
Arghonaut would punish weak contact attacks really hard, and AV Colossoil's Rapid Spin would be a lot less automatic with Arghonaut potentially coming in to make it pay.
Everything that can run Ice Punch in CAP (or OU) does
Landorus-T is really centralizing in that a lot of things run Ice Punch even when it's so-so type coverage; an ability like Iron Barbs or Flame Body would allow Arghonaut to switch in on Ice Punch and hurt the other team in the process, thus encouraging physical attackers to run other coverage.
Punishing weak and resisted contact moves allows Arghonaut to discourage certain prevalent metagame tactics, aligning with its original concept. I therefore believe that Iron Barbs or Flame Body are the best abilities to consider for Arghonaut as a Decentralizer.
The CAP Metagame is rife with U-turn
Arghonaut is a great switch-in to (Battle Bond) Greninja, Volkraken and Mega Scizor, and a passable switch into Pheromosa. All of these will U-turn if they see Arghonaut in team preview, and punishing them would do a lot to discourage U-turn spam, a common and very effective strategy.
Rapid Spin is common and easy in CAP
Arghonaut would punish weak contact attacks really hard, and AV Colossoil's Rapid Spin would be a lot less automatic with Arghonaut potentially coming in to make it pay.
Everything that can run Ice Punch in CAP (or OU) does
Landorus-T is really centralizing in that a lot of things run Ice Punch even when it's so-so type coverage; an ability like Iron Barbs or Flame Body would allow Arghonaut to switch in on Ice Punch and hurt the other team in the process, thus encouraging physical attackers to run other coverage.
Punishing weak and resisted contact moves allows Arghonaut to discourage certain prevalent metagame tactics, aligning with its original concept. I therefore believe that Iron Barbs or Flame Body are the best abilities to consider for Arghonaut as a Decentralizer.
Seriously people.... if a selection we make literally requires us to make a ban for it to not be broken, it is a bad decision for us to make. Its not like something got mechanics changed and we have to react to it. Our job here is to update our Pokemon for the metagame, not update the metagame rules for our Pokemon. Comatose is just a bad idea here, and really shouldn't even be under consideration.
Comatose allows one particularly stupid set to phaze 16 times in succession (the limit of Sleep Talk's PP.) It's stopped cold if it brings in faster scarfers with SE coverage like Lele, stopped if it brings in a Prankster Hawk with Taunt, stopped if it brings in Magic Bouncers or you switch Rebound Soil into it, Magic Guarders Krilowatt and M-Cruci don't care about it, Regenerator mons don't care about it, and and is entirely useless without rocks being set first anyway.
The only reason I brought up such a prospect in the first place is its stupid to let 16PP of phazing on an asinine set that is annoying but legal derail discussion of actual competitively useful sets.
I will submit however that Comatose does this same thing to Circle Throw and thus would be a limiting factor, but kept to just Roar this is an annoying troll set, not a serious one.
The only reason I brought up such a prospect in the first place is its stupid to let 16PP of phazing on an asinine set that is annoying but legal derail discussion of actual competitively useful sets.
I will submit however that Comatose does this same thing to Circle Throw and thus would be a limiting factor, but kept to just Roar this is an annoying troll set, not a serious one.
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Comatose sleep talk for phazing is not remotely broken don't be silly. It's not even good, it'd be quite bad. It's going to call other moves unless you literally run just sleep talk roar, which would be a terrible set anyway. It's basically a worse Copycat Riolu, which was never more than a gimmick.
Anyway, comatose would overshadow unaware by a pretty wide margin I think, since Unaware just isn't that relevant on Argonaut for that many mons.
I mean Cawmodore's itemless acro does 73-87%. Aurumoth's Psychic stab does a billion. It doesn't even really beat Char-X anyway if it has roost. Etc etc.
If Unaware was a good ability for Arghonaut in the meta, you'd see it getting used. It's not going to be a useful niche when either Prankster Haze Tomohawk or the copious choice of offensive checks are infinitely better.
Anyway, comatose would overshadow unaware by a pretty wide margin I think, since Unaware just isn't that relevant on Argonaut for that many mons.
I mean Cawmodore's itemless acro does 73-87%. Aurumoth's Psychic stab does a billion. It doesn't even really beat Char-X anyway if it has roost. Etc etc.
If Unaware was a good ability for Arghonaut in the meta, you'd see it getting used. It's not going to be a useful niche when either Prankster Haze Tomohawk or the copious choice of offensive checks are infinitely better.
I said this earlier today, and I will say it again. Anything that isn't a niche ability will overshadow Unaware.
Seeing how Unaware has done little to nothing for Argho, as most are too scared of running into HazeHawk to run set-up anymore, Unaware might as well have had no ability at all. It's so bad in this meta, it essentially has no competitive ability at all. Unaware is great in OU, because set-up sweepers run rampant there. However, the never ending threat of HazeHawk shut down set-up in this metagame, making Unaware worthless. The only thing I can think of that sets up is DDMence, and even then I've never seen an opponent use it (I have started to though) and Clefable blows it back anyways. Comatose actually gives Argho something to be worthwhile to use. Physical attackers will appreciate something usable that can sponge status for it, and Argho itself is included. It still gets blown away by Koko, Lele, and Bulu, and Fini stopped status anyways. Comatose doesn't remove weaknesses, and it doesn't even do anything with ComaPhazing besides maybe Stealth Rock stall, but the second something it's weak to comes out, it's game over. Majority of teams bring a Tapu, all of which have some fairy Attack to work with (asides bulu, but it has grass attacks). Lele especially destroys it if it is either max speed or scarfed. Comaphazing might be annoying, but without Circle Throw, it stays at that alone. Besides, if I'm correct, Sleep Talk still fails if you're awake with Comatose. But then again, I've never faced Sleep Talk Komala (does it even get it?). Comatose allows Argho to outclass Tapu Fini in almost every way barring the amount of weaknesses (5 for Argho and 3 for Fini). Last thing to note is that it allows it to be on the receiving end of VoltTurns, and IF it got U-Turn itself (which I'm not banking on, but with Comatose I see it happening), it would fit right in with VoltTurn cores, being a more physically gifted and bulkier option to using Greninja.
Tl;dr: Comatose or bust.
Seeing how Unaware has done little to nothing for Argho, as most are too scared of running into HazeHawk to run set-up anymore, Unaware might as well have had no ability at all. It's so bad in this meta, it essentially has no competitive ability at all. Unaware is great in OU, because set-up sweepers run rampant there. However, the never ending threat of HazeHawk shut down set-up in this metagame, making Unaware worthless. The only thing I can think of that sets up is DDMence, and even then I've never seen an opponent use it (I have started to though) and Clefable blows it back anyways. Comatose actually gives Argho something to be worthwhile to use. Physical attackers will appreciate something usable that can sponge status for it, and Argho itself is included. It still gets blown away by Koko, Lele, and Bulu, and Fini stopped status anyways. Comatose doesn't remove weaknesses, and it doesn't even do anything with ComaPhazing besides maybe Stealth Rock stall, but the second something it's weak to comes out, it's game over. Majority of teams bring a Tapu, all of which have some fairy Attack to work with (asides bulu, but it has grass attacks). Lele especially destroys it if it is either max speed or scarfed. Comaphazing might be annoying, but without Circle Throw, it stays at that alone. Besides, if I'm correct, Sleep Talk still fails if you're awake with Comatose. But then again, I've never faced Sleep Talk Komala (does it even get it?). Comatose allows Argho to outclass Tapu Fini in almost every way barring the amount of weaknesses (5 for Argho and 3 for Fini). Last thing to note is that it allows it to be on the receiving end of VoltTurns, and IF it got U-Turn itself (which I'm not banking on, but with Comatose I see it happening), it would fit right in with VoltTurn cores, being a more physically gifted and bulkier option to using Greninja.
Tl;dr: Comatose or bust.
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I'm personally fine with either Comatose or Misty Surge. The only real difference is that one has to be refreshed, and can be spread to teammates (the only Dragons who are affected by the debuff are like Kyurem-B and Garchomp). Both achieve essentially the same thing: status immunity. This is something that is extremely important for Arghonaut, as it no longer has to worry about Toxic, Scald Burns, Static Paralysis, and other random hax from the opposing team. This allows Arghonaut to serve as a status absorber for the team, which is a very unique form of utility. These two abilities essentially give Arghonaut extra longevity to be able to execute its role as a bulky attacker with utility. I have no preference with either ability; they essentially achieve the same thing just with different quirks. If we can't use Comatose due to the problems of Comaphazing or DarkSlay says its too strong, then Misty Surge can still fill it.
I admit I'm partial, since I'm looking at possibly my first succesful CAP proposal with Comatose. That said, I don't think the complex ban of Comatose + STalk is that complex from the flavor standpoint: Since we are adding a new ability, it might as well be that former gens Arghonauts were only Unaware (they were) and in those gens, Argho learned STalk from TM (so it doesn't destroy the potential of Unaware RestTalk set and keeps phasing, which IMO is one of the defining traits of Unaware Pirate). The only way to obtain Comatose Argho would be from Gen7, where it stopped learning STalk from TM.
I'm not that experienced with egg and other move-passing mechanics, but isn't that a similar situation in place with Clefable's Unaware + Softboiled illegality that AFAIK still hold?
I'm not that experienced with egg and other move-passing mechanics, but isn't that a similar situation in place with Clefable's Unaware + Softboiled illegality that AFAIK still hold?
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